For those who wish to build or buy their own Layens hives, plans can be downloaded (or hives purchased) on Dr. Leo's website: www.horizontalhive.com/index.shtml (I am not an affiliate of horizontalhive; just sharing the info) If you find value in my videos would you partner with me and provide support as a Patron? I appreciate your monthly commitment at any of the 3 Patreon levels: $2 - Supporting Sodbuster $5 - Official Sodbuster $10 - VIP Sodbuster See my Patreon page for the exclusive benefits available to members at each level. Thanks, in advance, for your support! www.patreon.com/suburbansodbuster Facebook: facebook.com/ssodbuster Instagram: instagram.com/suburban_sodbuster
I just saw a video of an interview with Paul Stamets about Amadou extract (from certain mushrooms, I think, since Paul Stamets is the mushroom guru extraordinaire) and and bees. He said it doubles the lifespan of the bees and reduces the deformed wing virus by 1000 fold. Have you heard of it? I'd love to know more if you have! Thank you for your video, BTW!
Mr Rainmaker here you're absolutely right I have got those highs and their insulated at R10 the proof is definitely in the pudding my hives came out of winter 40 frames in one of them full of bees and their matter and meaner than you know what and I don't like it I think they've gotten too big and now they think that they run the deal mom got news for them even though it's my prized Hive I'm not going to let these bees get out of control if you know what I mean as in their temperament but you're absolutely correct the proof is there okay Mr Rainmaker over and out now I'll be watching you asked who is Mr Rainmaker the big guy
@@kathygolden2886 Regarding your comment, could you share why? I'm considering changing to Layens after 12 years of Langstroth use. Just wondering anything else I should consider before starting to build.
@@sammorex394 It is harder to treat for mites with OA, you have less choices on trying to feed your bees - you have to use in hive feeders not top feeders or front feeders , they don't grow as well, they don't always put honey on the ends, I tend to find honey on all the frames, they just are inefficient to me. You can't really put in a candy board the same way either. Just much more limited and there are less improvements or advances that can be applied to them.
Im a spanish beekeeper...i work on three models..langstroth..dadant and layens. In my opinion in the layen hives the bees are more healthy and strong..they grow much faster.. (sorry for my english) I recomend the spanish layens hive..normally 12 combs..very portable and lately with possibility of supers...
Thanks for your comment, and your English seems fine. I'm glad to receive input from a Spanish beekeeper, considering the longer history and greater acceptance of the Layens hives there. I think the preference of hive size depends on the keeper's objectives. I do see that 12 frame hives would be more portable, but I've found that my 12 frame hives can take more management to prevent them from filling the space and swarming. But I'm also not a fan of supering, so that could make a difference.
As a beginner beekeeper at age 68, and a short, stout female with a bad back, I was put off by the idea of having to always have my son come to lift off the supers for me. A horizontal hive will mean that I can do inspections and harvests by myself! I'm working my way through the "Keeping bees in Horizontal Hives" book that I purchased from Dr. Leo. I would love to take one of his classes!
We’ve been thinking about becoming bee people but it all sounds so complicated. The Layens beehive is such a natural way to work in harmony with the bees. I feel much more confident. Thank you.❤
I think that over the last couple centuries of beekeeping the practice has been made more complicated as we work harder to master & manipulate the bees. The message I try to promote is that keeping bees doesn't have to be hard. I do agree that the Layens hive provides a better/more natural environment for the bees to manage themselves. If you haven't yet read "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I highly recommend it.
I just found this channel and I'm really glad I did. I'm 6 months late to comment, but I wanted to say I too feel a bit more conf, less timid, about starting this journey.
@LeeADKMOBILEMILLING They are referencing the discovery that queen excluders reduce worker bee life by 50% due to additional wear on wings. With no excluders and approximately 2 deeps and a medium, most queens will stop laying above that, the workers will build up and store only honey above that layer. Considering that heat rises, I have noticed queens will lay eggs top to bottom migrating down as the weather warms.
You can do that with any horizontal hive, though. I like the horizontals that use the Langstroth deep frames, it looks like a sweet point with the advantages of both. But also, I live in a mild climate so my bees fly all year around. I don't have to worry so much about how they'll over-winter.
I adore my layens hive. I struggled to keep bees before getting my layens hive. Since I got my layens hive I now don't have any problems with hive beetles, I keep a better build up of bees year around and have a super early build up of bees. My layens hive rarely have any robbing issues ( only once in 4 years) and have a great amount of honey and don't have to worry about leaving a huge amount of honey for them to make it through winter. I always leave them plenty to make it through.
I just started using insulated hive bodies and there is a crazy amount of bees as compared to a plain wood hive. Watching the bee barn from Vino & Bug-Farmer having custom frames, this alone keeps me in a commercial beehive. My operation has around a hundred hive bodies, it would be crazy to switch to another platform.. You have some good points for a small operation.
I went with Lazutin hives. They are at camp in bear country. It's basically a double deep Langstroth. With 2 by sides and floor. I use frames with 1.5 inch top bars that touch. And even some Langstroth frames. No bee space above frames. I used dowels cut in half to make half circles as starter with holes for bees to move horizontally. And one vertical skewer down the center. What I like is honey stores above the brood. No frame beaks to keep bees from moving up.
Thanks for listing! I luv my 12 frame layens hive with costom build supper on top so still have pull out the 3 deep frames then lift the supper off my 1st swarm catch after waiting 50 years to keep bees!
Thank you for the video very few people know about Layens hives. I started with Langstroth about 5 years ago. Last 2 years we been switching to Layens hives. I now have 12 insulated 20 frame Layens hives. Fully switch over and loving it in northern Canada.
They are working great. Since we have a short summer I harvest once in the fall. Plus it is Nice not having to do all that wrapping in the fall too. Where we are we get -20 to -30 C for a weeks.
Well if you're from Canada then I can understand why you like the insulated hives and why the insulated hives are stronger. I live in another climate our average winter night temperature is 0(we probably can count nigts on one hand when it drops to -7), day temperature probably +10.
I am very interested in the Layens hives. I’m a new beekeeper. I also have back problems that prevent me from being able to work bent over for long periods of time and also make it very uncomfortable carry a full Langstroth brood box or full medium super. I am glad I was recommended this video. Thank you for sharing so much knowledge and insight.
Where your bees come from makes a big difference. I've heard this a lot from people who buy packages (normally from Southern climates) and install them in hives in colder zones. Locally caught swarms can be a better source for locally acclimated, resilient bees. I know I'm making some assumptions about the source of your bees so this may or may not be applicable for you.
I made a video a couple years ago about this: ua-cam.com/video/ZbbhaowUHSw/v-deo.html. I've learned more about video editing and audio quality since then so the video might be due for an update, but my methods are still basically the same. I follow the same approach as taught by Dr. Leo - a frame of honey on each side of the brood area (where the bees cluster) and a good band of honey across the top of the brood frames. Really, the honey at the top of the frames is up to the bees and not really something I do - but if a colony got started late and doesn't have resources on the clustering frames then I may feed to help them build up.
You didn't mention that if you add a second large super for a Langstroth, the bees won't jump the gap and use that box unless you take some of the existing frames and put them below in the new box. I've had colonies started with two large Langstroth boxes and the bees never touch the bottom box because I didn't do this. Great video! Happy swarm season to you!
I'm going into my 2nd year as a beekeeper this year. I started with a Langstroth hive last year ... and by Fall had two deeps of bees (Zone 4 btw). I was already thinking hard about building the Layens horizontal as my second hive this year and will probably build it very soon. As you have mentioned, I am concerned about the transition... I will research it more, but I am now convinced that Layen's horizontal is the way to go. Thanks! Cheers from Newfoundland
I think you'll find the deeper frames beneficial for overwintering. Some favor extending the Layens frames a couple inches for more northern climates, but I don't know if that's critical. Extending the depth does make it easier to hang Langstroth frames vertically in the hive, for transition, if you take that route.
@@SuburbanSodbuster - I plan on transitioning the frames from Langstroth to Layens. Thanks for all your knowledge sharing,,, reaql appreciated! Kindest Regards from Newfoundland. Live well
Great video 👍 Horizontal hives they are good, my father law his keep bee's in horizontal hives for good 20 years great result. Regards Sebastian From UK
Enjoyed your talk on the hive, in the UK we have something like 8 different types of hive in the UK. It's crazy. Most bee hives in the UK are Nationals I started with Lanstrogh Jumbo brood box hives which were given to me free so I'm not going to turn that down that magic word FREE! But in the end switched over to the National hive smaller brood box and smaller supers pretty much a square box. But with climate change I'm seeing in the South of England I'm on the South coast winters are becoming much much more milder and t/shirt weather unlike I remember back in the 1970s winters were cold to freezing you to the bone. I had a choice of switching to a bigger hive say a Lanstrogh or Daddant. But when I found out there was a much better brood box called the Commercial a 16x10x I switched to that it's both bigger then a National and Lanstrogh but I could use everything a National had IE roof, floors just my frames were bigger been a good brood box as it caters for Italians who like to build big colonies up. UK beekeepers in time realised with are changing of weather that they needed a bigger brood box so someone came up with a new National Brood box a 14x 12x box bigger frames. I don't see any logic in this a tell beekeeper so you have decided to invent the National but you already had a bigger box that fitted Nationals a Commercial Brood box which I have I'm finding people are more crazy and not logical. It's the same situation of having a basic Langtroth brood box then changing over to a bigger box a Jumbo Brood box. On the hive you were talking about it does interest me a lot we have these popping up over here in the UK but the roofs are bolted on with hinges so you just lift it up with chains holding it on four legs exactly the same layout as what you have on the 30 to 34 frames seen one with 40 frames very Interesting. I'm thinking if you wanted to change your Langtroth to this new hive have an idea have a large hole in the side of both hives and lock them together tight so bees can move back and forth from both hives with a queen excludes in between to stop the queen relaying in the Langtroth just an idea can always have a device to plug up the large hole between the boxes, I 🤔 think it would work as bees build down as well as across just need the correct bee space gap in place.
A hinged lid is a nice-to-have, but extra time and material to construct. In my case it can also limit my ability to get good camera angles. For up to a 20 frame hive a removable lid isn't too much to manage, but any bigger could be cumbersome.
First year beekeeper here. started with 2 langstroth hives; was pressured into treating with formic pro...... I only treated one hive because I couldn't get to the bottom broad box on the other. Well the treated hive absconded, and the untreated one is thriving. I am signed up for Dr. Leo's seminar and am looking forward to this way of beekeeping!! I plan on spending the winter months building the layens hives.
Thanks for sharing! It seems to be a common pattern that absconding often follows treatment. I think that letting the bees live more naturally is better for them and easier on us.
Thanks, Mr Sodbuster, here in Spain we use the layens mostly and like you say, it's so much less hassle. I'm new to beekeeping and have other interests too, so not having to spend so much time "messing around" with my bees is a bonus.
Husband and I have been thinking we’d like to add a couple of hives to our property. Not to harvest and/or sell, but to help bee population, which in turn would help the gardens and fruit trees we’ve planted, along w/others in area. Have seen the Honey Flow hive. Was impressed w/the hive itself, but just cannot afford the $850+ for kit, (hive + majority of tools) needed to setup, keep, and maintain.
I am a 4th year beek, with both Layens horizontal and Langstroth vertical hives; 10 frame and 5 frame nucs. I was so concerned with converting Lang to Layens that I even made a conversion hive as well. I never used it though, because my first bees were a swarm that went into my Layens 6 frame swarm trap. They became 3 colonies. My second colony was a package I received for helping a fellow beek, that when into a Layens. I do run Langs because I got bees from Kirk Webster in Vermont, and he sells his bees on Langstroth Equipment. Once I did my first splits, queened with somewhat local queens, I was on my way. I have 11 colonies at present, in both types of hives. If you get bees, get more than 1colony to start. You will learn so much faster and you will have resources to perhaps help another colony out. I'm with you all the 'all in one' box aspect of the horizontal hives. They don't seem to entail all the extraneous gear that the vertical Langs do. I have not tried a long Lang, but I may just to keep Lang frames around to sell bees on. The winter prep alone with the wooden Lang boxes is enough for me to decide that the horizontal hives were easier to keep for my management. Once I slowed down, I found that I squished fewer bees with the Layens hives and that most certainly contributes to their better disposition. I also have the SAF Regatta, and I have extracted both styles of frames, even mixed Lang and Layens frames in the same spin, no problem, just watch your balance. Thanks for sharing your reasons for favoring the Layens. I would have to agree. And Happy New year...shortly!
Really liked this video. I appreciate all the history that you presented. As a new beekeeper (first package install today!!!), I appreciate all your presentation material and shared experience.
Great job professor Sodbuster! Interesting how the pro Langstroth fail to realize that a single deep while building out from a swarm or NUC IS a horizontal hive, prior to adding the 2nd deep or honey super! Just an observation. After 42 years of Langstroth lifting I greatly enjoy an 8 lb. Layens frame of honey as the heaviest lift needed! One back surgery was enough for me. Keep up the good work brother! I am honored to be a patron of your good work.
😆😆😆 Let me blow your mind: Some people, practicing natural beekeeping, check on their hives only twice a year. A welfare check in spring when they add empty frames, and a fall check when they harvest honey and condense the colony for winter. A "lazy" beekeeper's dream! I don't recall for sure but don't think I mentioned that in the video. I'm too much of a busybody to abide by that, plus it wouldn't provide for much content. 😆
Excellent overview. I have both styles. I much prefer the Layens for the insulation and overwintering issues here in the north where overnight temperatures do fall to -30F a few times most years.
New to beekeeping and decided to start with a 20 frame Layens. I put 14 frames in, added a new swarm and the bees stay in the cavity and build comb under the lid...ugh. They won't go over to the frames. I decides my only option was to fill the hive full with all 20 frames. It solved the problem but not sure if it's okay to start a new colony like that. Can't seem to find a solution anywhere on YB about my problem
That's an unusual problem. What kind of starter strips/foundation did you use on your frames? When you introduced the bees did you shake them into the open end?
Great intro - thanks! Questions: How does harvesting honey go if each frame also has brood or pollen? How does ventilation go with just the small holes you use? Is it harder for the bees to overwinter and keep their heat when the mass is sprrad horizontally instead of vertically? Thank you!
Good questions. I have some videos to answer these: About harvesting honey from the Layens hive: ua-cam.com/video/V7HTKF7WqQk/v-deo.html About ventilation (or lack of it): ua-cam.com/video/OqNxQ6WmOSM/v-deo.html The previous video also deals with heat retention (spoiler - I prefer insulated/condensing hives to ventilated) but, regarding the differences in dimensions: because the available space in the horizontal hive is managed more precisely, using the divider board, to just what the bees need I think the heat retention can be more efficient.
It's surprising to me how many times I've heard (or read), in various forums, that someone might consider Layens hives but there's "no extractor for them".
Did I miss the part where you talk about separating the brood comb from the honey comb in the Layens hive? One of the advantages i understood about the Langstroth was the separation of the two type enabling cleaner honey extraction. Ps : great video.
I recently posted a video explaining how the bees naturally provide that separation in a horizontal hive. You can find that video here: ua-cam.com/video/V7HTKF7WqQk/v-deo.html
Thank you for this video, as I am not a bee keeper yet. However, I am considering becoming a bee keeper in the near future. I have been looking at various hive types. I am an engineer with good DIY skills, so building my own hive would not be a problem. I like the hive that you described as the space is very adjustable. Also. I can incorporate some ideas of my own.
I have a swarm trap from Dr Leo, and I'm in the process of building my first 20 frame layens. My nuc is currently occupied by a small swarm I caught in somebody's yard.
I built a Layens hive and put a swarm in it this early Summer. Lots of bees. Harvesting not so sure. I took 3 outside frames in Mid August. 10 pints in all. My concern is how to know the proper amount to take. Any need to provide sugar this winter and should I treat for mites now and w what ? I appreciate you channel!
Thank you so much for posting this. I've been using Langstroth hives for awhile (just over ten years) and I don't like dealing with the weight of heavy supers. I had several surgeries recently and the Doc said "no heavy lifting"!!! I know you are in Missouri, how do you think the Layens will work in northern climates like Northern Wisconsin? Is the height of the Layens frame tall enough to hold enough honey stores for our long cold winters up here? (Or should I make them taller?) I'd love to change to the Layens hive format, and would insulate the boxes as you do. Also, another reason I am considering to change to Layens, I hate breaking apart the brood boxes and destroying drone brood cells just to make sure the queen is laying. What a terrible mess, I feel like a bull in a china shop every time I center the brood area in a Langstroth! I just subscribed and look forward to watching your other videos! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with everyone!
I think the deeper Layens frames work well for northern climates, especially in an insulated hive. Having said that, many do enlarge the frames to accommodate larger honey stores for winter. The Layens frames could be extended 2" (with adaptation to the hive, as well) and still fit in a Layens extractor. Fedor Lazutin, author of "Keeping Bees With a Smile" used double-deep Langstroth width frames in his northern Russian climate. You could try a standard Layens hive to start; if you decided to go with extended frames later then adding a spacer to the top of the hive is not complicated. I think there are plans on horizontalhive.com for such a spacer for use with Langstroth adapter frames.
I have seen the layen hives with both the circular hole entrance and also the rectangular entrance is one better than the other? Or is it just a matter of preference on who’s building it?
I've been loving your videos and I definitely subscribed! (from comparing Layens/Langtroths hives to how to build frames). You've helped me decide to go with a Layens and build it myself in my shop. Question: would you recommend a 20 frame hive or more frames if I have the space in my backyard? How many colonies do you keep in your 30 frame Taj Mahel at any given time? I'm debating going with a 30 frame hive as well to give me more flexibility in the future but I'm wondering if it's overkill. Hoping that you have some opinions based on your Taj Mahal hive experience. Maybe better to go with 2 hive boxes amounting to 30 frames instead? Thank you! And keep up the great work!
My preference is for a 20 frame hive - in my experience it's big enough to accommodate most colonies through a season. I've had a couple that filled the hive but many that didn't need all of the space. Also, 20 frame hives aren't too big to move, if needed. Areas with a very strong nectar flow might justify a larger hive, maybe 25 frames - but this can also be managed by replacing full honey frames when space is needed. My "Taj Mahive" is 30 frames and usually holds two colonies, but sometimes space gets tight. It's also too large to move, as a matter of practicality.
Hi! Omgosh. This video was so helpful. I am brand new to beekeeping. I basically know nothing except what I have learned so far in two classes (of six) of my beginner beekeeping course. However, I have to order bees tomorrow or they won’t be ready in time, so I’m in a bit of a panic. 😳 Here are my questions: 1. I have zero woodworking skills or tools, but I would REALLY like to start out buying Layens hives. However, I have no tools or knowledge on how to convert frames or NUCS (or whatever they are called 😂) that will be coming to me. Do you have something that you sell that will help me to do that? I don’t know that anyone in my area is really using Layens hives, so it’s really scary as a beginner to jump off this cliff without more education and support from experienced mentors in that area. 2. Can I buy the boxes from you, and do you sell the stands that they go on? If so, how long will they take to arrive, and do you ship to SC? 3. Are they good for hot, humid environments like where I live? 4. Do you use the screens on the bottom for combatting mites, and if not, how do you do you fight the battles of the pests? 5. Do you also have the plans available for sale, so if I can find anyone local to make more of these boxes for me later, I would have some bring to give them to use? Any advice or suggestions you could offer would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for reading this far! If you have boxes available for purchase and ship to my area, I would like to buy asap if you think I will be able to get the NUCS into these boxes without a great deal of angst. lol.
I'm so glad that you found this video useful, and I appreciate your questions. So much so, in fact, that I'm going to give away some spoilers in my answers. 😁 First, if you haven't read the book "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I strongly recommend it. It is the foundation for the "natural" beekeeping methods I use, utilizing horizontal hives with deep frames (like Layens). Dr. Leo Sharashkin edited the book and sells it on his website, horizontalhive.com, or it's available on Amazon here: amzn.to/3SeoeXz. 1. As for converting frames, many people make "adapter" frames in which the Langstroth frames are rotated 90 degrees. This requires extending the sides of the Layens hive to accommodate the additional depth. I'm not a fan of this because it changes the cell angle from what the bees built. I prefer a (more destructive) method of cutting the ends off of the Langstroth frames and mounting the middle inside of an unwired Layens frame by driving screws through the top bars. I have an idea for a product to facilitate conversion from Langstroth to Layens, but have no idea when that might be available. I do have videos showing a conversion hive I built to migrate bees from one to the other. 2. I don't sell hives today but I hope to soon. I will offer swarm traps and frames first, then add insulated 20 frame hives. My goal is to have hives available in March but I can't guarantee the timeline. I'm working on a design similar to Dr. Leo's insulated hive but made to better facilitate shipping (that's all I'll say about that right now). If you saw my video in which I built and reviewed the Hopkins Hive Stand I am working with Kris Hopkins to offer an updated/improved version of that product, as well. 3. An insulated hive can provide benefit in a hot environment as well as in cold, the same way house insulation moderates the interior temperatures. I can't speak from experience about your environment but others have reported good results using the hives in hot southern temperatures. I have noticed my insulated hives typically have less bearding than those with thin walls. One issue that some encounter with Layens frames (with vertical wires) is comb collapse - when soft, new comb is loaded with honey and gets overheated. Keeping the hive where it's not in direct afternoon sun can help with that, and I'm working on a frame design to also mitigate the issue. 4. I do not use screened bottoms, nor do I use any mite treatments. The research of Tom Seeley and others has shown that, through natural selection, apis mellifera can adapt to deal with mites much better than originally thought. My bees come from feral populations through trap-outs, cut-outs and caught swarms so have a higher likelihood (not guarantee) of mite resistance & disease tolerance. Purchased, commercial packages and nucs are unlikely to have traits to resist varroa so will probably require treatments - but I don't really have advice about methods. 5. I've debated about making my plans available publicly, once they're complete. At least initially I think the plans will be available exclusively to my Patreon supporters. (www.patreon.com/suburbansodbuster) Thanks for commenting; watch this channel and my facebook page for announcements about hive products (which will be offered on my website: suburbansodbuster.com). I wish you well as you start your own beekeeping journey.
Thank you so very much for your generous reply! I have shared your video with three other people now and have watched it 3x myself! (Obsessing over everything in it! Lol). I have taken your advice and purchased the book from the link you recommended. I also ordered four hives from there. Thank you, thank you! I would be highly interested in purchasing your new frame design when it becomes available (for honeycomb collapse in hot weather). Please, please keep me in the loop! This is all so exciting, and I am so grateful that you are willing to share your knowledge! P.S. I’ve never bought any patron subscriptions or been on there before. What sort of information is on there? I may want to join. :)
@@Lisahbj membership on Patreon is a way for people to give tangible appreciation, support and encouragement to creators. It's like a monthly "tip" to say "I like what you're doing - keep it up". In return creators provide some additional access and benefits to their patrons. In my case, patrons have greater input for future video topics, get an early preview of some videos, insights about some behind-the-scenes activities, and opportunities for closer interaction with me and other patrons. This Friday, for example, I'll be hosting my first Patreon-exclusive Zoom chat. Benefits of different membership levels are listed on my Patreon page, but I will continue to strive to make members' support worthwhile with access to additional content like swarm trap & hive plans (pending) and some extra goodies like small gifts I mailed to patrons earlier this month.
I have seen circular be entrances and I have also seen the horizontal 6 inch cut entrances for the hive. Is one better than the other or just a matter of preference
I prefer the circular entrances because they're easier to close and adjust with readily available circular gates. But overall I think it's a matter of preference.
When I bought my bee nuc to put in layens hive. I just put a couple layens in as normal the put the langstroth frames in sideways. Once the bees started to build the layens frames out I shook out the bees so the queen started laying on them. Once the bee larvae hatched I removed the langstroth frames.
i like this hive however a few concerns are if my enduro electric extractor can be adaptable. i emailed hillco and waiting for a reply. also, i love using my green drone frames. does anyone make one to fit this hive? feeding? winter candy boards? screen bottom boards? so many questions, so little time!!!
I know that Hillco makes large-frame extractors usable with the Layens frames but I don't know about the enduro model, specifically. As for the rest of your questions, they seem to touch on the philosophical shift I mentioned from managing the bees to letting them manage themselves. This does cross over, some, from the hive, specifically, to natural beekeeping methods, in general. I'll share how I manage some of the points you mention, not that this is to dictate how things must be done in the hive: Drone frames: In the Layens hive I let the bees build comb naturally, rather than using foundation to direct the bees' cell size. Some do mount comb throughout the frame; I prefer to use just a starter strip and let the bees build the rest - including building drone cells as they wish. If someone really wanted to use a drone frame it would be possible to mount the foundation in a Layens frame, but that puts the hive management back into the beekeeper's hands. Feeding: It is possible to use frame feeders when necessary, but I only feed in the fall for colonies that got a late start. Otherwise the bees do well to feed on naturally occuring nectar and pollen. Speaking of which, I never feed pollen patties. Pollen substitutes are often nutritionally inferior to actual pollen, and the patties make great hive beetle attractant. Winter candy boards: I don't use them. With the deeper frames, the bees will naturally fill the tops of the frames with a band of honey which provides their winter food. In an insulated hive their consumption tends to be reduced and I often find ample honey left in the spring. Screened bottom boards: This is something else I don't use. Some may find benefit but I've never found them a necessity. A hive could be built with a screened bottom if someone wanted, but mine are enclosed on the sides, top and bottom. I will mention that the methods I use, allowing the bees to manage and forage for themselves, expect that the bees are locally adapted to the area and preferably from local survivor stock. A package of Italian bees from Georgia, installed in a hive in Minnesota, will be poorly equipped to fend for themselves in the climate.
I generally agree with your perspectives on Langstroth/Layens(horizontal hive), as I have both and another beekeeper friend has 40 colonies in 'horizontal hives'. The topic that we have yet to solve is harvastable honey production. From the same yard, langstroth colonies put produce horizontal in our our area 5:1. Any insight appreciated
hi, new to your channel. do you see any disadvantage of making a layens style hive but modified to accommodate langstroth frames? i'm only 5yrs into bees teaching me and layens makes sense. unfortunately it's all langstroth for me.
With this type of hive, how do you deal with mite treatment, such as Apivar strips, when they say you need to remove the honey supers in a Langstroth hive?
I suppose someone could mark their frames to differentiate those which have been present during treatment (non harvestable) from those which are harvestable. In my case, however, I don't apply any mite treatments. Instead I keep local bees from feral sources and try to minimize my own manipulations of the hives. Studies have found that, through natural selection, honeybee populations in the wild rapidly adapt (over 4-5 years) with resistance and/or tolerance to mites. It's these qualities I count on, for the bees to handle the mites on their own, in my own hives. It's not a guarantee, but my colonies have generally been healthy and my winter survival has averaged 93%.
No, I haven't used packaged bees. Instead, I prefer to keep bees acclimated to our local nectar flow and climate. I source these primarily from swarm catches, cut-outs or trap-outs. Having bees that function in sync with the nectar flow, increasing and decreasing brood appropriately, as well as storing adequately for winter, makes it easier on the keeper. As for the frames, my preference is for wired frames that can be used in an extractor. I do prefer to use only 2-3/4" of wax foundation as a starter strip, rather than full sheets of foundation, and let the bees build the rest out as natural comb. This year I tried using some craft sticks as a starter but the bees seem to be reluctant to build on it. Next year I think I might cut those down to 1/2 width or less, just to give the bees a ridge to guide the comb.
Do you find that hive color matters at all in respect to winter survival (for absorbing sun) and do you recommend treated ply for the exterior sheeting on the hive, or just paint untreated?
I generally recommend light colors for hives so as not to absorb much heat from the sun. With the insulated hives the color is probably less important. Over winter the bees will generate their own heat; if we can help them retain that there's no need to add external heat. As for the exterior, I use untreated sheathing grade plywood and paint with an exterior paint.
My husband built us a layens hive and we have 1 Nuc of bees. Could you please tell me where to get a queen excluder that would be good for this type of hive? Just a regular 20x 16 from Amazon?
If you wish to use an excluder you could cut a plastic excluder to fit between the frames, or use a divider board with the middle cut out and queen excluder mesh (metal or plastic) fastened over the opening. I don't use excluders, though, in my Layens hives. In most hives the bees naturally keep the brood close to the entrance, on the first 7 frames more or less. On occasion a queen will roam farther into the hive - I have had a queen who spread brood out across 10 frames. When that occurs I'll catch the queen, move her back closer to the entrance, and put a full frame of honey as the 8th frame. The queen is unlikely to cross over a frame of honey where there's no place to lay eggs. While it can be frustrating to have the occasional hive like that, reducing the number of harvestable frames, it does provide the opportunity to scavenge resource frames from the hive when another colony might benefit from a frame containing both honey and brood.
I started with Dadant frames, not sure if popular in US. I can't imagine trying to transport a hive like that without using a crane :D I would love to have horizontal hives due to ease of use but I transport my hives twice a year and can't imagine anything else that styrofoam vertical ones.
I don't know of excluders made for the Layens hive, but some will cut down a plastic excluder to insert, vertically, between frames. I haven't yet used an excluder in the Layens hives, though. The colony will typically keep brood on the frames closest to the entrance and surplus honey deeper in the hive.
I bult the conversion hive on the fly so don't have specific plans. But, after the fact, I published a video about that build. The video is available here: ua-cam.com/video/77K87O9zI0g/v-deo.html
The Layens frames are deeper but not as wide as Langstroth, so it's not possible to simply use the Langstroth frames in a Layens hive. One could use a long (horizontal) Langstroth hive, but would give up the benefit of the deeper Layens frames for easier winter preparation.
People do use "long langstroth" horizontal hives with Langstroth deep frames, but the deeper frames like Layens provide a lot of benefit for easy over-wintering, especially in colder climates.
I'm guessing that what you mean by building a "Layens hive" is a horizontal hive, but using Langstroth frames. Yes, people do build "long Langstroth" hives - horizontal hives for deep Langstroth frames. The Layens frames are a different dimension, though, and I prefer the deeper Layens frames because they provide ample space for the bees to naturally store adequate resources for winter - something that can be more of a challenge on 9" deep Langstroth frames.
I don't feed at all over winter. If locally acclimated bees are kept, they'll be in sync with the local nectar flow and climate and will store adequate resources for winter. The deep frames of the Layens hive give enough space for the bees to store these resources. When I saw Dr. Leo demonstrate winterizing the hive I thought it couldn't be that easy, but I've learned that the bees really do "know" how to prepare their hive. If it does become necessary to feed a hive due to some exceptional situations, such as an extended drought during the normal nectar flow, then what I commonly use are frame feeders. But I haven't had need to feed any of my hives this year or last.
I'm in Missouri; our temps generally range from summer highs of 100F to winter lows of -10F. To prepare for winter and dearth periods, the honey at the top of the brood frames + 2 full honey frames is adequate so we harvest the surplus.
Can I ask what insulation you use? It makes perfect sense that insulated hives would be happier but I don't know what all types are good. Thank you so much!!!
I was using sheep's wool, but where I live sourcing raw wool isn't easy or cheap. So I've started using rock wool batts, available at my local big box hardware store. I split the 3" batts in half for the sides and use a full layer for the lid. The rock wool isn't itchy to work with like fiberglass.
You almost had me converted until you mentioned the extractor issue. Darn it, anyway! I’m four years into beekeeping and last year sunk about $1,200 into a Maxant motorized extractor. Sucks to be me because I would convert to Layens.
@@ottojuba you have no idea how timely your question is! I have a video scheduled to post tomorrow morning explaining that I prefer to fully insulate my hives rather than provide top ventilation. I don't mention it in that video, but Dr. Thomas Seeley has documented bees' preference for a snug cavity with a single, low entrance. By fully insulating my hives I emulate that environment and my results have been very good in both summer and winter. The bees do a good job of moving air through the entrance, but I will sometimes set another entrance disk to the ventilation setting when the bees are drying and curing honey.
Great explanation and comparisons with the pros and cons. I think most of the old timers who made log hives didn't have teeth. Many were nicknamed Gummy. So people would say "Hey ma! I picked up a hive from Gummy! A Gummy hive!" Then they just shortened it. 🙂
I thought they were called gums because they were made from gum tree logs. My grandfather and great grandfather had bee gums, but I don’t know what kind of tree they used.
I do not understand one thing. In a Langstroth you have super box you extract honey, but here no queen excluder and gueen can put brood in any frame. So you end up with mixed frames. How you extract honey in that case? I recently was about to purchase my first langstroth boxes. I could not make a decision 8 or 10 frames to go. The back says go 8 frames with 2 broodboxes. So that family will be strong and it is easier to work with a box of 8 than 10. But I really do not wanna walk through 2 broodboxes if I need to find the queen. Layens in that regard seems an awesome thing. After many thoughts I have returned back to 10 full frame single broodbox.
@@alexk6745 the colony will usually keep brood close to the entrance, on about the first 7 frames. Surplus honey is kept further into the hive, so there you get full frames of honey. On occasion a queen will wander and lay throughout the hive, but it's not typical. In those cases I'll put the queen back onto the first few frames and use a full frame of honey as a divider. The queen is unlikely to move past the honey frame. It is possible to cut a plastic queen excluder to insert, vertically, between frames or make an excluder from a divider board. I've never found it necessary to use an excluder, though.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Many thanks for your reply. I started to think about this type of beehive. I remember in our barn we had similar wooden boxes and my grandfather was keeping the bees. Probably he did not want to use Langstroth hives because of back. The only problem is that I'm not sure if I find anywhere the frames for that beehive. I also saw a slovenian hive. But for backyard beekeeping slovenian could be overkill.
Excellent video. What are your thoughts on the horizontal langstroth hives that Dr. Leo has plans for on his website? I've built two of them but I feel like the depth of the Layens would be better to insulate the bees here in Wisconsin.
I agree about the depth. For a colder, northern climate I do think that deeper frames are more beneficial and a single layer of Langstroth deeps could be challenging. There are people who overwinter in single deeps in the north, but doing so can require feeding to prepare the bees for winter. I prefer to allow the bees to store up winter resources naturally and, in my opinion, deeper frames will provide an environment to support that.
I don't see condensation in the hive as an issue as long as the condensation doesn't occur above the bees where it can drip down onto the cluster. Having more insulation in the lid than the sides ensures that any condensation will occur on the side walls, where there's greater heat transfer, and rather than being a liability it provides water for the bees over winter when they're unable to readily leave the hive. I've had no issues with insulating my lids with 3" of rock wool, rather than using top ventilation. I talk more about moisture in the hives and top insulation vs. venting in this video: ua-cam.com/video/uYm1rrXCfiQ/v-deo.htmlsi=_tC8iZTvRg_ONL1y
Wouldn't the frames of the Layens have a combination of honey and brood on the frames whereas the use of an excluder and supers with Langstroth produce cleaner honey?
The bees typically keep brood on the frames closest to the entrance and full frames of honey deeper into the hive. Frames with brood aren't extracted for honey. An excluder can be put, vertically, between frames but I've never found it necessary.
Any input on using a Layne’s hive in south Alabama? I’ve been told by others that they wouldn’t work in the south. I’m a 5’1 60 year old female that loves caring for bees but I do not have the strength to manage a Langstroth hive alone. Family kinda look at me cross eyed when I ask for hep.😂
I don't think there's any reason why it wouldn't work. The deeper frames may not be as necessary for a warmer climate, but giving bees more space to build vertically, without adding supers, certainly wouldn't hurt anything at all.
If my last Langstroth hive dies out I’ll never use one again. I much prefer my Long Langstroth hives. I’ve got to build 4 more this year. I kill more bees when I go into my vertical Langstroth hives when I remove the boxes. The bees don’t get as agitated either because your not tearing their home apart as badly. Those old hives called Gums were made from Black Gum (Tupelo) trees because Black Gum trees will get hollow when they get old. I’m growing a bunch of Black Gum from seed now. Their flowers make fantastic honey. It’s the best type of honey for diabetics.
Not being from the Caribbean myself, I'd be reluctant to tell you what's best for your locality. I will say that insulation can be beneficial for moderating temperature extremes, in general, both cold and hot. If I were to guess, however, I'd say that maybe a ventilated hive would be more applicable to your climate.
I don't use any treatments, instead I keep bees from local, feral sources. These are more likely to have traits to manage Varroa mites on their own. I talk more about my treatment-free philosophy in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2Q-Ml_3sKhk/v-deo.html
For SHB I try to manage the space to be no more than the bees can effectively cover. As long as the population is dense enough, the bees will tend to keep the small hive beetles herded toward the ends of the hive and will often sequester them in propolis "corrals". I've been guilty of releasing the beetles when I open the hive and break the propolis, and then try to crush as many as I can to make penance. One could also use the propolis traps that lay flat, like a CD case, placed in the open end or even at the bottom of the hive. As for treatments, I don't use any so haven't had to account for that. But I know some people have built their hives with ports at the back for OA vaporization. When I do feed I use frame feeders made for the Layens hive.
@@SuburbanSodbuster how has your mite count been? You’re in Missouri right? I’m just over here in Kansas so I don’t think we would be that much different geologically.
@kennydavis3673 I've never tested for mites - instead I let the weaker colonies go and propagate from the survivors. My losses have been light; I only keep bees from trap-outs, cut-outs and caught swarms and have been fortunate in the survivability of the bees. My only reason for testing would be if I were studying the results or planning to treat. At some point I might do the former but not the latter.
My first year with Layens (built w/ Dr Leo specs), I just had the open round entrance and SHBs and mites were a huge issue. Doing some research and looking at SHB excluders, I jammed a 90 degree pipe in the open hole (same diameter as the hole) for my second season. A common 90 deg down pipe for a kitchen sink disposer (eg Insinkerator) is perfect size. Because of their shell, SHBs cant negotiate the downpipes 180 deg lip entrance. The bees have no issue. End of SHBs for my hives. Probably not the reason Ive been free of mites since they catch those while out foraging, but the coincidence is stark. YMMV. WRT feeders, you can get hanging feeders that are the same size as a frame. Or you can put an upside down jar w lid etc in the open end of the hive and let the bees come under the divider board to access it (Ive done both, but find the later to be less messy, no drown bees). For winter feeding with fondant patties (my first year trying that), I drilled a hole thru the top of one frame (while in place) and put the patty next to the hole with a small tupperware container covering both so it makes a small "chamber". Light wool blanket over to keep them in place and so far that has worked for me better than a pillow. The bees take the paddy if they want it, and it doesnt lose appreciable heat, as far as I can tell. Again YMMV.
Here we are with the queen excluder device. If one must use it, please consider an important point an old time beek taught me several decades ago-- pull the damn thing back about 1 1/4" from the front edge of the box. This will allow free travels of drones within the colony/ hive. Otherwise they can plug up the bee spaces and constrict the workers from travelling to the supers. Next, when there is a barrier of honey above the queen/ brood, take the QE away as it is not necessary any longer. I have seen many hives where the QE was left on all season and clugged with dead drones fighting to get through. Imagine trying to get your groceries into your house by way of a pet door or a partly opened window. It can and does demoralize the workers during a heavy flow. So get that QE off as soon as possible. Your honey crop will be improved. Trust me, I have had over 20 years dealing with bees and it must the noted the queen will almost never find this front gap and cross up through it.
Thanks for the information! So I have been studying beekeeping for a few months hopefully starting 2025 (I am in no rush). 90% is related to Langstroth hives. Question…how different is mite management? Specifically screened bottoms and drone frames? I am having some challenges finding specific information for horizontal hives..I imaging that while horizontal Langstroth hives can and do have screened bottoms, that would defeat the purpose of Layens design?
I don't practice any particular mite management, instead keeping local bees from feral sources. Dr. Thomas Seeley has observed that, in the wild, honeybee populations in a given area will take about 4 years to develop mite resistance as bees without resistance/tolerance will die out and those with resistant traits will reproduce. I count on the natural resistance of those bees which have been living without intervention to populate my apiary and it's been a strategy that's worked well for me. If you haven't yet read "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I highly recommend it; you can get a copy here: amzn.to/3tNZptm. I also talk more about my own treatment-free practices in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2Q-Ml_3sKhk/v-deo.html.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I set 2 up both with eco floors and the bees seem to be doing well in them the deep sizes are great in that they can move up the same comb for longer due to its length during winter.
When I built "Taj Mahive" it was originally a horizontal Lazutin hive which could hold two levels of Langstroth frames. After I built it (before I went to Dr. Leo's seminar) I talked to Dr. Leo about it and, while he didn't really try to discourage me, he did say that managing the levels of frames in a horizontal hive can get complicated. He also mentioned that Lazutin's environment is comparable to our USDA zone 4 and that the larger frames are beneficial in a cold environment but not really needed in our area (Zone 6). Once I went to his seminar and saw the management of the Layens hive I was convinced that the ease of management was worth the non-"standard" frame size and rebuilt the interior of my large hive.
I had a top bar hive 24 bars they filled it from one end to the other , a tun of brood more than I needed , honey recourses wasn’t much the queen was a goer she layed eggs everywhere , it swarmed and the hive never really recovered after that so I went back to langstroth hives , I may try this in the future , it’s a long langstroth hive looking at it with top bar frames instead of top bars , btw you still have to inspect the brood etc from time to time I feel so disrupting the hive now and then isn’t going to be much of a inconvenience to them , proper management is a must for disease control etc.
It is a mistake to make a completely blank roof of the hive. This is probably good for wintering, but in some cases it is better to use the standard 435 by 460mm frame option. There are 32 frames in my Yakimov hive, you can make one main family and 1-2 layering. There are a lot of possibilities. Regarding transportation, they are much simpler than the hives of Ruth, Dadan. I transfer and load Yakimov's (Vladimirsky) beehives alone without assistants along with bees, while doing it with one hand in my 60 years. The longest transportation of bees is 900km. Links to the video are in the following comment.
The deeper frames of the Layens hive are beneficial for overwintering, and the (typically) touching top bars of the Layens frames reduce disruption of the colony during inspections.
I am doing Layens… without a real mentor. It is so simple! Doing great right now headed into year 3. I have two empties that I built and will be building two more over the coming months. Gonna try to step up to 6 hives and 3 NUCs next year via catching swarms. Currently sitting at 2 hives and a NUC. The NUC is 6 Layens frames and still pretty darn large. Not feeding sugar water takes honey to a much higher level!!!
I made 4 Layens hives and they were a huge fail. They just abandoned the hives...every time. After they built up about 4 full frames....gone. Langstroth long is a fail also. Bees love the hive but the queens lay all in the honey.Also wasps and mice nest under the lid. I moved to standard hives. MUCH easier to deal with.
For those who wish to build or buy their own Layens hives, plans can be downloaded (or hives purchased) on Dr. Leo's website: www.horizontalhive.com/index.shtml
(I am not an affiliate of horizontalhive; just sharing the info)
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I just saw a video of an interview with Paul Stamets about Amadou extract (from certain mushrooms, I think, since Paul Stamets is the mushroom guru extraordinaire) and and bees. He said it doubles the lifespan of the bees and reduces the deformed wing virus by 1000 fold.
Have you heard of it? I'd love to know more if you have! Thank you for your video, BTW!
I have 2 layens and 4 Langstroth and I prefer the Langstroth
Mr Rainmaker here you're absolutely right I have got those highs and their insulated at R10 the proof is definitely in the pudding my hives came out of winter 40 frames in one of them full of bees and their matter and meaner than you know what and I don't like it I think they've gotten too big and now they think that they run the deal mom got news for them even though it's my prized Hive I'm not going to let these bees get out of control if you know what I mean as in their temperament but you're absolutely correct the proof is there okay Mr Rainmaker over and out now I'll be watching you asked who is Mr Rainmaker the big guy
@@kathygolden2886 Regarding your comment, could you share why? I'm considering changing to Layens after 12 years of Langstroth use. Just wondering anything else I should consider before starting to build.
@@sammorex394 It is harder to treat for mites with OA, you have less choices on trying to feed your bees - you have to use in hive feeders not top feeders or front feeders , they don't grow as well, they don't always put honey on the ends, I tend to find honey on all the frames, they just are inefficient to me. You can't really put in a candy board the same way either. Just much more limited and there are less improvements or advances that can be applied to them.
They're called gums because the gum tree commonly hollows out, often providing the observant farmer with a natural premade cavity.
Interesting. Thanks for the info!
I only use Layens. I love them. Brood pattern is beautiful and the frames are full of honey. Most important-I never stress my back.
Im a spanish beekeeper...i work on three models..langstroth..dadant and layens. In my opinion in the layen hives the bees are more healthy and strong..they grow much faster.. (sorry for my english) I recomend the spanish layens hive..normally 12 combs..very portable and lately with possibility of supers...
Thanks for your comment, and your English seems fine. I'm glad to receive input from a Spanish beekeeper, considering the longer history and greater acceptance of the Layens hives there. I think the preference of hive size depends on the keeper's objectives. I do see that 12 frame hives would be more portable, but I've found that my 12 frame hives can take more management to prevent them from filling the space and swarming. But I'm also not a fan of supering, so that could make a difference.
As a beginner beekeeper at age 68, and a short, stout female with a bad back, I was put off by the idea of having to always have my son come to lift off the supers for me. A horizontal hive will mean that I can do inspections and harvests by myself! I'm working my way through the "Keeping bees in Horizontal Hives" book that I purchased from Dr. Leo. I would love to take one of his classes!
I also highly recommend the book "Keeping Bees With a Smile".
We’ve been thinking about becoming bee people but it all sounds so complicated. The Layens beehive is such a natural way to work in harmony with the bees. I feel much more confident. Thank you.❤
I think that over the last couple centuries of beekeeping the practice has been made more complicated as we work harder to master & manipulate the bees. The message I try to promote is that keeping bees doesn't have to be hard. I do agree that the Layens hive provides a better/more natural environment for the bees to manage themselves. If you haven't yet read "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I highly recommend it.
I just found this channel and I'm really glad I did. I'm 6 months late to comment, but I wanted to say I too feel a bit more conf, less timid, about starting this journey.
I. Never use queen excluders
Why?
Yes,Why? could you expand on that please?
@LeeADKMOBILEMILLING They are referencing the discovery that queen excluders reduce worker bee life by 50% due to additional wear on wings. With no excluders and approximately 2 deeps and a medium, most queens will stop laying above that, the workers will build up and store only honey above that layer. Considering that heat rises, I have noticed queens will lay eggs top to bottom migrating down as the weather warms.
I love the insulation factor in the layens hive. It keeps it warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.
~R10 for the sides and ~R30 for the top. Easily done with a layens!
You can do that with any horizontal hive, though. I like the horizontals that use the Langstroth deep frames, it looks like a sweet point with the advantages of both. But also, I live in a mild climate so my bees fly all year around. I don't have to worry so much about how they'll over-winter.
1:35 gum is a tree species. Whrn they die they tend to rot hollows in them
I adore my layens hive. I struggled to keep bees before getting my layens hive. Since I got my layens hive I now don't have any problems with hive beetles, I keep a better build up of bees year around and have a super early build up of bees. My layens hive rarely have any robbing issues ( only once in 4 years) and have a great amount of honey and don't have to worry about leaving a huge amount of honey for them to make it through winter. I always leave them plenty to make it through.
I just started using insulated hive bodies and there is a crazy amount of bees as compared to a plain wood hive. Watching the bee barn from Vino & Bug-Farmer having custom frames, this alone keeps me in a commercial beehive. My operation has around a hundred hive bodies, it would be crazy to switch to another platform.. You have some good points for a small operation.
I went with Lazutin hives. They are at camp in bear country. It's basically a double deep Langstroth. With 2 by sides and floor. I use frames with 1.5 inch top bars that touch. And even some Langstroth frames. No bee space above frames. I used dowels cut in half to make half circles as starter with holes for bees to move horizontally. And one vertical skewer down the center. What I like is honey stores above the brood. No frame beaks to keep bees from moving up.
That's a smart choice. Lazutin lived in a climate comparable to our USDA zone 4; the larger frames are beneficial for colder winters.
Thanks for listing! I luv my 12 frame layens hive with costom build supper on top so still have pull out the 3 deep frames then lift the supper off my 1st swarm catch after waiting 50 years to keep bees!
Thank you for the video very few people know about Layens hives.
I started with Langstroth about 5 years ago. Last 2 years we been switching to Layens hives.
I now have 12 insulated 20 frame Layens hives. Fully switch over and loving it in northern Canada.
Im in Northern BC, was wondenring how they worked up north.
They are working great. Since we have a short summer I harvest once in the fall. Plus it is Nice not having to do all that wrapping in the fall too. Where we are we get -20 to -30 C for a weeks.
Well if you're from Canada then I can understand why you like the insulated hives and why the insulated hives are stronger. I live in another climate our average winter night temperature is 0(we probably can count nigts on one hand when it drops to -7), day temperature probably +10.
I am very interested in the Layens hives. I’m a new beekeeper. I also have back problems that prevent me from being able to work bent over for long periods of time and also make it very uncomfortable carry a full Langstroth brood box or full medium super. I am glad I was recommended this video. Thank you for sharing so much knowledge and insight.
Love the video, I've been doing bees for 3 years and never had them survive the winter. I always keep looking at videos like this for advice!!
Where your bees come from makes a big difference. I've heard this a lot from people who buy packages (normally from Southern climates) and install them in hives in colder zones. Locally caught swarms can be a better source for locally acclimated, resilient bees.
I know I'm making some assumptions about the source of your bees so this may or may not be applicable for you.
Excellent! I built 3- 30 frames layens and I’m on my 3rd year! Let bees be bees 🐝
Than build a double vertical nucleus and not a horizontal hive. And let bees be bees in a tree
If you'd do a clip on setting up for winter next fall. I know Leo does just a honey frame on each side of the brood area.
I made a video a couple years ago about this: ua-cam.com/video/ZbbhaowUHSw/v-deo.html. I've learned more about video editing and audio quality since then so the video might be due for an update, but my methods are still basically the same. I follow the same approach as taught by Dr. Leo - a frame of honey on each side of the brood area (where the bees cluster) and a good band of honey across the top of the brood frames. Really, the honey at the top of the frames is up to the bees and not really something I do - but if a colony got started late and doesn't have resources on the clustering frames then I may feed to help them build up.
You didn't mention that if you add a second large super for a Langstroth, the bees won't jump the gap and use that box unless you take some of the existing frames and put them below in the new box. I've had colonies started with two large Langstroth boxes and the bees never touch the bottom box because I didn't do this. Great video! Happy swarm season to you!
Im a 2yr keeper living in brutal summer heat and winter snow with a Layens box and Langstroth frames. This gives me the best of both worlds
I'm going into my 2nd year as a beekeeper this year.
I started with a Langstroth hive last year ... and by Fall had two deeps of bees (Zone 4 btw).
I was already thinking hard about building the Layens horizontal as my second hive this year and will probably build it very soon.
As you have mentioned, I am concerned about the transition... I will research it more, but I am now convinced that Layen's horizontal is the way to go.
Thanks!
Cheers from Newfoundland
I think you'll find the deeper frames beneficial for overwintering. Some favor extending the Layens frames a couple inches for more northern climates, but I don't know if that's critical. Extending the depth does make it easier to hang Langstroth frames vertically in the hive, for transition, if you take that route.
@@SuburbanSodbuster - I plan on transitioning the frames from Langstroth to Layens. Thanks for all your knowledge sharing,,, reaql appreciated!
Kindest Regards from Newfoundland.
Live well
I use some custom layens hives with some success. 😊
Great video 👍 Horizontal hives they are good, my father law his keep bee's in horizontal hives for good 20 years great result.
Regards Sebastian
From UK
Enjoyed your talk on the hive, in the UK we have something like 8 different types of hive in the UK. It's crazy. Most bee hives in the UK are Nationals I started with Lanstrogh Jumbo brood box hives which were given to me free so I'm not going to turn that down that magic word FREE! But in the end switched over to the National hive smaller brood box and smaller supers pretty much a square box. But with climate change I'm seeing in the South of England I'm on the South coast winters are becoming much much more milder and t/shirt weather unlike I remember back in the 1970s winters were cold to freezing you to the bone. I had a choice of switching to a bigger hive say a Lanstrogh or Daddant. But when I found out there was a much better brood box called the Commercial a 16x10x I switched to that it's both bigger then a National and Lanstrogh but I could use everything a National had IE roof, floors just my frames were bigger been a good brood box as it caters for Italians who like to build big colonies up. UK beekeepers in time realised with are changing of weather that they needed a bigger brood box so someone came up with a new National Brood box a 14x 12x box bigger frames. I don't see any logic in this a tell beekeeper so you have decided to invent the National but you already had a bigger box that fitted Nationals a Commercial Brood box which I have I'm finding people are more crazy and not logical. It's the same situation of having a basic Langtroth brood box then changing over to a bigger box a Jumbo Brood box. On the hive you were talking about it does interest me a lot we have these popping up over here in the UK but the roofs are bolted on with hinges so you just lift it up with chains holding it on four legs exactly the same layout as what you have on the 30 to 34 frames seen one with 40 frames very Interesting. I'm thinking if you wanted to change your Langtroth to this new hive have an idea have a large hole in the side of both hives and lock them together tight so bees can move back and forth from both hives with a queen excludes in between to stop the queen relaying in the Langtroth just an idea can always have a device to plug up the large hole between the boxes, I 🤔 think it would work as bees build down as well as across just need the correct bee space gap in place.
A hinged lid is a nice-to-have, but extra time and material to construct. In my case it can also limit my ability to get good camera angles. For up to a 20 frame hive a removable lid isn't too much to manage, but any bigger could be cumbersome.
First year beekeeper here. started with 2 langstroth hives; was pressured into treating with formic pro...... I only treated one hive because I couldn't get to the bottom broad box on the other. Well the treated hive absconded, and the untreated one is thriving. I am signed up for Dr. Leo's seminar and am looking forward to this way of beekeeping!! I plan on spending the winter months building the layens hives.
Thanks for sharing! It seems to be a common pattern that absconding often follows treatment. I think that letting the bees live more naturally is better for them and easier on us.
Great information learned alot. Time to build my next insulated box!!!🎉
Thank you for watching! I'm glad this was informative for you.
Thanks, Mr Sodbuster, here in Spain we use the layens mostly and like you say, it's so much less hassle. I'm new to beekeeping and have other interests too, so not having to spend so much time "messing around" with my bees is a bonus.
Husband and I have been thinking we’d like to add a couple of hives to our property. Not to harvest and/or sell, but to help bee population, which in turn would help the gardens and fruit trees we’ve planted, along w/others in area. Have seen the Honey Flow hive. Was impressed w/the hive itself, but just cannot afford the $850+ for kit, (hive + majority of tools) needed to setup, keep, and maintain.
wow this is a great video. thank you for taking the time to make it
I am a 4th year beek, with both Layens horizontal and Langstroth vertical hives; 10 frame and 5 frame nucs. I was so concerned with converting Lang to Layens that I even made a conversion hive as well. I never used it though, because my first bees were a swarm that went into my Layens 6 frame swarm trap. They became 3 colonies. My second colony was a package I received for helping a fellow beek, that when into a Layens. I do run Langs because I got bees from Kirk Webster in Vermont, and he sells his bees on Langstroth Equipment. Once I did my first splits, queened with somewhat local queens, I was on my way. I have 11 colonies at present, in both types of hives. If you get bees, get more than 1colony to start. You will learn so much faster and you will have resources to perhaps help another colony out. I'm with you all the 'all in one' box aspect of the horizontal hives. They don't seem to entail all the extraneous gear that the vertical Langs do. I have not tried a long Lang, but I may just to keep Lang frames around to sell bees on. The winter prep alone with the wooden Lang boxes is enough for me to decide that the horizontal hives were easier to keep for my management. Once I slowed down, I found that I squished fewer bees with the Layens hives and that most certainly contributes to their better disposition. I also have the SAF Regatta, and I have extracted both styles of frames, even mixed Lang and Layens frames in the same spin, no problem, just watch your balance. Thanks for sharing your reasons for favoring the Layens. I would have to agree. And Happy New year...shortly!
Layens for the Win!!!!
Great video. You answered a lot of questions I had.
Excellent! Thanks for the clear presentation.
Thank you for watching!
Nice presentation. You hit on all the points as to why I chose this for my first hive this year too! Thank you
It appears to be a top bar and Langstroth hybrid. I like it. Unfortunately I already have a lot invested into langstroth boxes lol.
Really liked this video. I appreciate all the history that you presented. As a new beekeeper (first package install today!!!), I appreciate all your presentation material and shared experience.
Great job professor Sodbuster! Interesting how the pro Langstroth fail to realize that a single deep while building out from a swarm or NUC IS a horizontal hive, prior to adding the 2nd deep or honey super! Just an observation. After 42 years of Langstroth lifting I greatly enjoy an 8 lb. Layens frame of honey as the heaviest lift needed! One back surgery was enough for me. Keep up the good work brother! I am honored to be a patron of your good work.
The bees make for themselves the connection between the top frame and bottom frame if you let them. In cold climants i would insulate too.
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
You literally sold my lazy ass when you started showing the other most common hive type, lol, thanks for the video!
😆😆😆 Let me blow your mind: Some people, practicing natural beekeeping, check on their hives only twice a year. A welfare check in spring when they add empty frames, and a fall check when they harvest honey and condense the colony for winter. A "lazy" beekeeper's dream! I don't recall for sure but don't think I mentioned that in the video. I'm too much of a busybody to abide by that, plus it wouldn't provide for much content. 😆
Excellent overview. I have both styles. I much prefer the Layens for the insulation and overwintering issues here in the north where overnight temperatures do fall to -30F a few times most years.
New to beekeeping and decided to start with a 20 frame Layens. I put 14 frames in, added a new swarm and the bees stay in the cavity and build comb under the lid...ugh. They won't go over to the frames. I decides my only option was to fill the hive full with all 20 frames. It solved the problem but not sure if it's okay to start a new colony like that. Can't seem to find a solution anywhere on YB about my problem
That's an unusual problem. What kind of starter strips/foundation did you use on your frames? When you introduced the bees did you shake them into the open end?
Langstroth is widely used more so then the Layens hives. But a great video thank you very much.
Thank you.for more great information 😊😊😊
Thank you young man it was just wonderful information
God bless you and yours and God bless the USA
Great intro - thanks!
Questions:
How does harvesting honey go if each frame also has brood or pollen?
How does ventilation go with just the small holes you use?
Is it harder for the bees to overwinter and keep their heat when the mass is sprrad horizontally instead of vertically?
Thank you!
Good questions. I have some videos to answer these:
About harvesting honey from the Layens hive: ua-cam.com/video/V7HTKF7WqQk/v-deo.html
About ventilation (or lack of it): ua-cam.com/video/OqNxQ6WmOSM/v-deo.html
The previous video also deals with heat retention (spoiler - I prefer insulated/condensing hives to ventilated) but, regarding the differences in dimensions: because the available space in the horizontal hive is managed more precisely, using the divider board, to just what the bees need I think the heat retention can be more efficient.
Thaks for explaining about the extractors. Haven't been able to find information on this.
It's surprising to me how many times I've heard (or read), in various forums, that someone might consider Layens hives but there's "no extractor for them".
Did I miss the part where you talk about separating the brood comb from the honey comb in the Layens hive? One of the advantages i understood about the Langstroth was the separation of the two type enabling cleaner honey extraction. Ps : great video.
I recently posted a video explaining how the bees naturally provide that separation in a horizontal hive. You can find that video here: ua-cam.com/video/V7HTKF7WqQk/v-deo.html
@@SuburbanSodbuster that is a great followup. Thank you👍
Thank you for this video, as I am not a bee keeper yet. However, I am considering becoming a bee keeper in the near future.
I have been looking at various hive types. I am an engineer with good DIY skills, so building my own hive would not be a problem.
I like the hive that you described as the space is very adjustable. Also. I can incorporate some ideas of my own.
I have a swarm trap from Dr Leo, and I'm in the process of building my first 20 frame layens. My nuc is currently occupied by a small swarm I caught in somebody's yard.
I built a Layens hive and put a swarm in it this early Summer.
Lots of bees. Harvesting not so sure. I took 3 outside frames in Mid August. 10 pints in all. My concern is how to know the proper amount to take. Any need to provide sugar this winter and
should I treat for mites now and w what ? I appreciate you channel!
Thank you so much for posting this. I've been using Langstroth hives for awhile (just over ten years) and I don't like dealing with the weight of heavy supers. I had several surgeries recently and the Doc said "no heavy lifting"!!! I know you are in Missouri, how do you think the Layens will work in northern climates like Northern Wisconsin? Is the height of the Layens frame tall enough to hold enough honey stores for our long cold winters up here? (Or should I make them taller?) I'd love to change to the Layens hive format, and would insulate the boxes as you do. Also, another reason I am considering to change to Layens, I hate breaking apart the brood boxes and destroying drone brood cells just to make sure the queen is laying. What a terrible mess, I feel like a bull in a china shop every time I center the brood area in a Langstroth! I just subscribed and look forward to watching your other videos! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with everyone!
I think the deeper Layens frames work well for northern climates, especially in an insulated hive. Having said that, many do enlarge the frames to accommodate larger honey stores for winter. The Layens frames could be extended 2" (with adaptation to the hive, as well) and still fit in a Layens extractor. Fedor Lazutin, author of "Keeping Bees With a Smile" used double-deep Langstroth width frames in his northern Russian climate.
You could try a standard Layens hive to start; if you decided to go with extended frames later then adding a spacer to the top of the hive is not complicated. I think there are plans on horizontalhive.com for such a spacer for use with Langstroth adapter frames.
I have seen the layen hives with both the circular hole entrance and also the rectangular entrance is one better than the other? Or is it just a matter of preference on who’s building it?
I've been loving your videos and I definitely subscribed! (from comparing Layens/Langtroths hives to how to build frames). You've helped me decide to go with a Layens and build it myself in my shop. Question: would you recommend a 20 frame hive or more frames if I have the space in my backyard? How many colonies do you keep in your 30 frame Taj Mahel at any given time? I'm debating going with a 30 frame hive as well to give me more flexibility in the future but I'm wondering if it's overkill. Hoping that you have some opinions based on your Taj Mahal hive experience. Maybe better to go with 2 hive boxes amounting to 30 frames instead? Thank you! And keep up the great work!
My preference is for a 20 frame hive - in my experience it's big enough to accommodate most colonies through a season. I've had a couple that filled the hive but many that didn't need all of the space. Also, 20 frame hives aren't too big to move, if needed. Areas with a very strong nectar flow might justify a larger hive, maybe 25 frames - but this can also be managed by replacing full honey frames when space is needed. My "Taj Mahive" is 30 frames and usually holds two colonies, but sometimes space gets tight. It's also too large to move, as a matter of practicality.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Thank you for these pointers! Will go with a 20 frame hive then. Really appreciate it.
Hi! Omgosh. This video was so helpful. I am brand new to beekeeping. I basically know nothing except what I have learned so far in two classes (of six) of my beginner beekeeping course. However, I have to order bees tomorrow or they won’t be ready in time, so I’m in a bit of a panic. 😳
Here are my questions:
1. I have zero woodworking skills or tools, but I would REALLY like to start out buying Layens hives. However, I have no tools or knowledge on how to convert frames or NUCS (or whatever they are called 😂) that will be coming to me. Do you have something that you sell that will help me to do that? I don’t know that anyone in my area is really using Layens hives, so it’s really scary as a beginner to jump off this cliff without more education and support from experienced mentors in that area.
2. Can I buy the boxes from you, and do you sell the stands that they go on? If so, how long will they take to arrive, and do you ship to SC?
3. Are they good for hot, humid environments like where I live?
4. Do you use the screens on the bottom for combatting mites, and if not, how do you do you fight the battles of the pests?
5. Do you also have the plans available for sale, so if I can find anyone local to make more of these boxes for me later, I would have some bring to give them to use?
Any advice or suggestions you could offer would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for reading this far! If you have boxes available for purchase and ship to my area, I would like to buy asap if you think I will be able to get the NUCS into these boxes without a great deal of angst. lol.
Oh! I just saw the link about buying or building your own hives
I'm so glad that you found this video useful, and I appreciate your questions. So much so, in fact, that I'm going to give away some spoilers in my answers. 😁
First, if you haven't read the book "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I strongly recommend it. It is the foundation for the "natural" beekeeping methods I use, utilizing horizontal hives with deep frames (like Layens). Dr. Leo Sharashkin edited the book and sells it on his website, horizontalhive.com, or it's available on Amazon here: amzn.to/3SeoeXz.
1. As for converting frames, many people make "adapter" frames in which the Langstroth frames are rotated 90 degrees. This requires extending the sides of the Layens hive to accommodate the additional depth. I'm not a fan of this because it changes the cell angle from what the bees built. I prefer a (more destructive) method of cutting the ends off of the Langstroth frames and mounting the middle inside of an unwired Layens frame by driving screws through the top bars. I have an idea for a product to facilitate conversion from Langstroth to Layens, but have no idea when that might be available. I do have videos showing a conversion hive I built to migrate bees from one to the other.
2. I don't sell hives today but I hope to soon. I will offer swarm traps and frames first, then add insulated 20 frame hives. My goal is to have hives available in March but I can't guarantee the timeline. I'm working on a design similar to Dr. Leo's insulated hive but made to better facilitate shipping (that's all I'll say about that right now). If you saw my video in which I built and reviewed the Hopkins Hive Stand I am working with Kris Hopkins to offer an updated/improved version of that product, as well.
3. An insulated hive can provide benefit in a hot environment as well as in cold, the same way house insulation moderates the interior temperatures. I can't speak from experience about your environment but others have reported good results using the hives in hot southern temperatures. I have noticed my insulated hives typically have less bearding than those with thin walls. One issue that some encounter with Layens frames (with vertical wires) is comb collapse - when soft, new comb is loaded with honey and gets overheated. Keeping the hive where it's not in direct afternoon sun can help with that, and I'm working on a frame design to also mitigate the issue.
4. I do not use screened bottoms, nor do I use any mite treatments. The research of Tom Seeley and others has shown that, through natural selection, apis mellifera can adapt to deal with mites much better than originally thought. My bees come from feral populations through trap-outs, cut-outs and caught swarms so have a higher likelihood (not guarantee) of mite resistance & disease tolerance. Purchased, commercial packages and nucs are unlikely to have traits to resist varroa so will probably require treatments - but I don't really have advice about methods.
5. I've debated about making my plans available publicly, once they're complete. At least initially I think the plans will be available exclusively to my Patreon supporters. (www.patreon.com/suburbansodbuster)
Thanks for commenting; watch this channel and my facebook page for announcements about hive products (which will be offered on my website: suburbansodbuster.com). I wish you well as you start your own beekeeping journey.
Thank you so very much for your generous reply! I have shared your video with three other people now and have watched it 3x myself! (Obsessing over everything in it! Lol).
I have taken your advice and purchased the book from the link you recommended. I also ordered four hives from there. Thank you, thank you!
I would be highly interested in purchasing your new frame design when it becomes available (for honeycomb collapse in hot weather). Please, please keep me in the loop!
This is all so exciting, and I am so grateful that you are willing to share your knowledge!
P.S. I’ve never bought any patron subscriptions or been on there before. What sort of information is on there? I may want to join. :)
@@Lisahbj membership on Patreon is a way for people to give tangible appreciation, support and encouragement to creators. It's like a monthly "tip" to say "I like what you're doing - keep it up". In return creators provide some additional access and benefits to their patrons. In my case, patrons have greater input for future video topics, get an early preview of some videos, insights about some behind-the-scenes activities, and opportunities for closer interaction with me and other patrons. This Friday, for example, I'll be hosting my first Patreon-exclusive Zoom chat. Benefits of different membership levels are listed on my Patreon page, but I will continue to strive to make members' support worthwhile with access to additional content like swarm trap & hive plans (pending) and some extra goodies like small gifts I mailed to patrons earlier this month.
I have seen circular be entrances and I have also seen the horizontal 6 inch cut entrances for the hive. Is one better than the other or just a matter of preference
I prefer the circular entrances because they're easier to close and adjust with readily available circular gates. But overall I think it's a matter of preference.
When I bought my bee nuc to put in layens hive. I just put a couple layens in as normal the put the langstroth frames in sideways. Once the bees started to build the layens frames out I shook out the bees so the queen started laying on them. Once the bee larvae hatched I removed the langstroth frames.
Thank you!
i like this hive however a few concerns are if my enduro electric extractor can be adaptable. i emailed hillco and waiting for a reply. also, i love using my green drone frames. does anyone make one to fit this hive? feeding? winter candy boards? screen bottom boards? so many questions, so little time!!!
I know that Hillco makes large-frame extractors usable with the Layens frames but I don't know about the enduro model, specifically. As for the rest of your questions, they seem to touch on the philosophical shift I mentioned from managing the bees to letting them manage themselves. This does cross over, some, from the hive, specifically, to natural beekeeping methods, in general. I'll share how I manage some of the points you mention, not that this is to dictate how things must be done in the hive:
Drone frames: In the Layens hive I let the bees build comb naturally, rather than using foundation to direct the bees' cell size. Some do mount comb throughout the frame; I prefer to use just a starter strip and let the bees build the rest - including building drone cells as they wish. If someone really wanted to use a drone frame it would be possible to mount the foundation in a Layens frame, but that puts the hive management back into the beekeeper's hands.
Feeding: It is possible to use frame feeders when necessary, but I only feed in the fall for colonies that got a late start. Otherwise the bees do well to feed on naturally occuring nectar and pollen. Speaking of which, I never feed pollen patties. Pollen substitutes are often nutritionally inferior to actual pollen, and the patties make great hive beetle attractant.
Winter candy boards: I don't use them. With the deeper frames, the bees will naturally fill the tops of the frames with a band of honey which provides their winter food. In an insulated hive their consumption tends to be reduced and I often find ample honey left in the spring.
Screened bottom boards: This is something else I don't use. Some may find benefit but I've never found them a necessity. A hive could be built with a screened bottom if someone wanted, but mine are enclosed on the sides, top and bottom.
I will mention that the methods I use, allowing the bees to manage and forage for themselves, expect that the bees are locally adapted to the area and preferably from local survivor stock. A package of Italian bees from Georgia, installed in a hive in Minnesota, will be poorly equipped to fend for themselves in the climate.
I generally agree with your perspectives on Langstroth/Layens(horizontal hive), as I have both and another beekeeper friend has 40 colonies in 'horizontal hives'.
The topic that we have yet to solve is harvastable honey production.
From the same yard, langstroth colonies put produce horizontal in our our area 5:1.
Any insight appreciated
hi, new to your channel.
do you see any disadvantage of making a layens style hive but modified to accommodate langstroth frames? i'm only 5yrs into bees teaching me and layens makes sense. unfortunately it's all langstroth for me.
With this type of hive, how do you deal with mite treatment, such as Apivar strips, when they say you need to remove the honey supers in a Langstroth hive?
I suppose someone could mark their frames to differentiate those which have been present during treatment (non harvestable) from those which are harvestable.
In my case, however, I don't apply any mite treatments. Instead I keep local bees from feral sources and try to minimize my own manipulations of the hives. Studies have found that, through natural selection, honeybee populations in the wild rapidly adapt (over 4-5 years) with resistance and/or tolerance to mites. It's these qualities I count on, for the bees to handle the mites on their own, in my own hives. It's not a guarantee, but my colonies have generally been healthy and my winter survival has averaged 93%.
Have you used packaged bees .
and have you used "no foundation" frames ?
No, I haven't used packaged bees. Instead, I prefer to keep bees acclimated to our local nectar flow and climate. I source these primarily from swarm catches, cut-outs or trap-outs. Having bees that function in sync with the nectar flow, increasing and decreasing brood appropriately, as well as storing adequately for winter, makes it easier on the keeper.
As for the frames, my preference is for wired frames that can be used in an extractor. I do prefer to use only 2-3/4" of wax foundation as a starter strip, rather than full sheets of foundation, and let the bees build the rest out as natural comb. This year I tried using some craft sticks as a starter but the bees seem to be reluctant to build on it. Next year I think I might cut those down to 1/2 width or less, just to give the bees a ridge to guide the comb.
Do you find that hive color matters at all in respect to winter survival (for absorbing sun) and do you recommend treated ply for the exterior sheeting on the hive, or just paint untreated?
I generally recommend light colors for hives so as not to absorb much heat from the sun. With the insulated hives the color is probably less important. Over winter the bees will generate their own heat; if we can help them retain that there's no need to add external heat. As for the exterior, I use untreated sheathing grade plywood and paint with an exterior paint.
My husband built us a layens hive and we have 1 Nuc of bees. Could you please tell me where to get a queen excluder that would be good for this type of hive? Just a regular 20x 16 from Amazon?
If you wish to use an excluder you could cut a plastic excluder to fit between the frames, or use a divider board with the middle cut out and queen excluder mesh (metal or plastic) fastened over the opening. I don't use excluders, though, in my Layens hives. In most hives the bees naturally keep the brood close to the entrance, on the first 7 frames more or less. On occasion a queen will roam farther into the hive - I have had a queen who spread brood out across 10 frames. When that occurs I'll catch the queen, move her back closer to the entrance, and put a full frame of honey as the 8th frame. The queen is unlikely to cross over a frame of honey where there's no place to lay eggs. While it can be frustrating to have the occasional hive like that, reducing the number of harvestable frames, it does provide the opportunity to scavenge resource frames from the hive when another colony might benefit from a frame containing both honey and brood.
I started with Dadant frames, not sure if popular in US. I can't imagine trying to transport a hive like that without using a crane :D I would love to have horizontal hives due to ease of use but I transport my hives twice a year and can't imagine anything else that styrofoam vertical ones.
maybe i missed it, but is there a queen excluder in the layens hive?
I don't know of excluders made for the Layens hive, but some will cut down a plastic excluder to insert, vertically, between frames. I haven't yet used an excluder in the Layens hives, though. The colony will typically keep brood on the frames closest to the entrance and surplus honey deeper in the hive.
good video, learned stuff, thanx.
Thank you! I'm glad this was useful.
Thanks so much, very informative. Happy New Year from your viewers in the UK
Thank you, and a Happy New Year to you!
Thanks, I am trying to convert to Layens and this is a help. How is your conversion hive constructed? Need to move my Long Lang to the Layens.
I bult the conversion hive on the fly so don't have specific plans. But, after the fact, I published a video about that build. The video is available here: ua-cam.com/video/77K87O9zI0g/v-deo.html
sorry, for the stupid question, but why don't you use Langstroth hive deep frames in Layens hive?
The Layens frames are deeper but not as wide as Langstroth, so it's not possible to simply use the Langstroth frames in a Layens hive. One could use a long (horizontal) Langstroth hive, but would give up the benefit of the deeper Layens frames for easier winter preparation.
Is it possible to use a horizontal hive, but with smaller frames?
People do use "long langstroth" horizontal hives with Langstroth deep frames, but the deeper frames like Layens provide a lot of benefit for easy over-wintering, especially in colder climates.
I’m a newbie and wonder if you can build a Layens hive using Langstroth frames?
I'm guessing that what you mean by building a "Layens hive" is a horizontal hive, but using Langstroth frames. Yes, people do build "long Langstroth" hives - horizontal hives for deep Langstroth frames. The Layens frames are a different dimension, though, and I prefer the deeper Layens frames because they provide ample space for the bees to naturally store adequate resources for winter - something that can be more of a challenge on 9" deep Langstroth frames.
What do you do to feed the bees in the winter with the Layens hive?
I don't feed at all over winter. If locally acclimated bees are kept, they'll be in sync with the local nectar flow and climate and will store adequate resources for winter. The deep frames of the Layens hive give enough space for the bees to store these resources. When I saw Dr. Leo demonstrate winterizing the hive I thought it couldn't be that easy, but I've learned that the bees really do "know" how to prepare their hive.
If it does become necessary to feed a hive due to some exceptional situations, such as an extended drought during the normal nectar flow, then what I commonly use are frame feeders. But I haven't had need to feed any of my hives this year or last.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Where are you located & do you extract the honey or leave it for the bees?
I'm in Missouri; our temps generally range from summer highs of 100F to winter lows of -10F. To prepare for winter and dearth periods, the honey at the top of the brood frames + 2 full honey frames is adequate so we harvest the surplus.
Can I ask what insulation you use? It makes perfect sense that insulated hives would be happier but I don't know what all types are good. Thank you so much!!!
I was using sheep's wool, but where I live sourcing raw wool isn't easy or cheap. So I've started using rock wool batts, available at my local big box hardware store. I split the 3" batts in half for the sides and use a full layer for the lid. The rock wool isn't itchy to work with like fiberglass.
You almost had me converted until you mentioned the extractor issue. Darn it, anyway! I’m four years into beekeeping and last year sunk about $1,200 into a Maxant motorized extractor. Sucks to be me because I would convert to Layens.
LAYENS FOR SURE, BEEN KEEPING BEES FOR 20 YEARS WITH TERRIBLE SUCCESS, NOW ENJOY SUCCESS WITH LAYENS, THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO.
What do you do for ventilation?
@@ottojuba you have no idea how timely your question is! I have a video scheduled to post tomorrow morning explaining that I prefer to fully insulate my hives rather than provide top ventilation. I don't mention it in that video, but Dr. Thomas Seeley has documented bees' preference for a snug cavity with a single, low entrance. By fully insulating my hives I emulate that environment and my results have been very good in both summer and winter. The bees do a good job of moving air through the entrance, but I will sometimes set another entrance disk to the ventilation setting when the bees are drying and curing honey.
Great explanation and comparisons with the pros and cons. I think most of the old timers who made log hives didn't have teeth. Many were nicknamed Gummy. So people would say "Hey ma! I picked up a hive from Gummy! A Gummy hive!" Then they just shortened it. 🙂
😆 That explanation certainly makes the most sense.
I wish the black bear that took out 4 of my NUCs last spring was a "gummy bear"!!!
I thought they were called gums because they were made from gum tree logs. My grandfather and great grandfather had bee gums, but I don’t know what kind of tree they used.
@@daleorthman😂😂 that’s a good one , I see what you did there !
I do not understand one thing. In a Langstroth you have super box you extract honey, but here no queen excluder and gueen can put brood in any frame. So you end up with mixed frames. How you extract honey in that case?
I recently was about to purchase my first langstroth boxes. I could not make a decision 8 or 10 frames to go. The back says go 8 frames with 2 broodboxes. So that family will be strong and it is easier to work with a box of 8 than 10. But I really do not wanna walk through 2 broodboxes if I need to find the queen. Layens in that regard seems an awesome thing. After many thoughts I have returned back to 10 full frame single broodbox.
@@alexk6745 the colony will usually keep brood close to the entrance, on about the first 7 frames. Surplus honey is kept further into the hive, so there you get full frames of honey. On occasion a queen will wander and lay throughout the hive, but it's not typical. In those cases I'll put the queen back onto the first few frames and use a full frame of honey as a divider. The queen is unlikely to move past the honey frame.
It is possible to cut a plastic queen excluder to insert, vertically, between frames or make an excluder from a divider board. I've never found it necessary to use an excluder, though.
@@SuburbanSodbuster Many thanks for your reply. I started to think about this type of beehive. I remember in our barn we had similar wooden boxes and my grandfather was keeping the bees. Probably he did not want to use Langstroth hives because of back. The only problem is that I'm not sure if I find anywhere the frames for that beehive. I also saw a slovenian hive. But for backyard beekeeping slovenian could be overkill.
Excellent video. What are your thoughts on the horizontal langstroth hives that Dr. Leo has plans for on his website? I've built two of them but I feel like the depth of the Layens would be better to insulate the bees here in Wisconsin.
I agree about the depth. For a colder, northern climate I do think that deeper frames are more beneficial and a single layer of Langstroth deeps could be challenging. There are people who overwinter in single deeps in the north, but doing so can require feeding to prepare the bees for winter. I prefer to allow the bees to store up winter resources naturally and, in my opinion, deeper frames will provide an environment to support that.
What about the condensation problem that forever plagues us, does this hive have this problem?
I don't see condensation in the hive as an issue as long as the condensation doesn't occur above the bees where it can drip down onto the cluster. Having more insulation in the lid than the sides ensures that any condensation will occur on the side walls, where there's greater heat transfer, and rather than being a liability it provides water for the bees over winter when they're unable to readily leave the hive. I've had no issues with insulating my lids with 3" of rock wool, rather than using top ventilation. I talk more about moisture in the hives and top insulation vs. venting in this video: ua-cam.com/video/uYm1rrXCfiQ/v-deo.htmlsi=_tC8iZTvRg_ONL1y
Wouldn't the frames of the Layens have a combination of honey and brood on the frames whereas the use of an excluder and supers with Langstroth produce cleaner honey?
The bees typically keep brood on the frames closest to the entrance and full frames of honey deeper into the hive. Frames with brood aren't extracted for honey. An excluder can be put, vertically, between frames but I've never found it necessary.
Where are you located
Eastern Missouri
Any input on using a Layne’s hive in south Alabama? I’ve been told by others that they wouldn’t work in the south. I’m a 5’1 60 year old female that loves caring for bees but I do not have the strength to manage a Langstroth hive alone. Family kinda look at me cross eyed when I ask for hep.😂
I don't think there's any reason why it wouldn't work. The deeper frames may not be as necessary for a warmer climate, but giving bees more space to build vertically, without adding supers, certainly wouldn't hurt anything at all.
If my last Langstroth hive dies out I’ll never use one again. I much prefer my Long Langstroth hives. I’ve got to build 4 more this year. I kill more bees when I go into my vertical Langstroth hives when I remove the boxes. The bees don’t get as agitated either because your not tearing their home apart as badly. Those old hives called Gums were made from Black Gum (Tupelo) trees because Black Gum trees will get hollow when they get old. I’m growing a bunch of Black Gum from seed now. Their flowers make fantastic honey. It’s the best type of honey for diabetics.
Now you need to try the slovenian hive.
If one lives in the Caribbean, would they still need an insulated hive? It gets windy and cool at night in the winter but cool is not cooler than 72.
Not being from the Caribbean myself, I'd be reluctant to tell you what's best for your locality. I will say that insulation can be beneficial for moderating temperature extremes, in general, both cold and hot. If I were to guess, however, I'd say that maybe a ventilated hive would be more applicable to your climate.
" The Toshmahive" funny thumbs up.
how do you fight whit varoja mite if you hawe them
I don't use any treatments, instead I keep bees from local, feral sources. These are more likely to have traits to manage Varroa mites on their own. I talk more about my treatment-free philosophy in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2Q-Ml_3sKhk/v-deo.html
Does anyone have any input on how treatment goes for SHB or mites in this hive? And are there feeders for this type of hive?
For SHB I try to manage the space to be no more than the bees can effectively cover. As long as the population is dense enough, the bees will tend to keep the small hive beetles herded toward the ends of the hive and will often sequester them in propolis "corrals". I've been guilty of releasing the beetles when I open the hive and break the propolis, and then try to crush as many as I can to make penance. One could also use the propolis traps that lay flat, like a CD case, placed in the open end or even at the bottom of the hive.
As for treatments, I don't use any so haven't had to account for that. But I know some people have built their hives with ports at the back for OA vaporization.
When I do feed I use frame feeders made for the Layens hive.
@@SuburbanSodbuster how has your mite count been? You’re in Missouri right? I’m just over here in Kansas so I don’t think we would be that much different geologically.
@kennydavis3673 I've never tested for mites - instead I let the weaker colonies go and propagate from the survivors. My losses have been light; I only keep bees from trap-outs, cut-outs and caught swarms and have been fortunate in the survivability of the bees. My only reason for testing would be if I were studying the results or planning to treat. At some point I might do the former but not the latter.
My first year with Layens (built w/ Dr Leo specs), I just had the open round entrance and SHBs and mites were a huge issue. Doing some research and looking at SHB excluders, I jammed a 90 degree pipe in the open hole (same diameter as the hole) for my second season. A common 90 deg down pipe for a kitchen sink disposer (eg Insinkerator) is perfect size. Because of their shell, SHBs cant negotiate the downpipes 180 deg lip entrance. The bees have no issue. End of SHBs for my hives. Probably not the reason Ive been free of mites since they catch those while out foraging, but the coincidence is stark. YMMV. WRT feeders, you can get hanging feeders that are the same size as a frame. Or you can put an upside down jar w lid etc in the open end of the hive and let the bees come under the divider board to access it (Ive done both, but find the later to be less messy, no drown bees). For winter feeding with fondant patties (my first year trying that), I drilled a hole thru the top of one frame (while in place) and put the patty next to the hole with a small tupperware container covering both so it makes a small "chamber". Light wool blanket over to keep them in place and so far that has worked for me better than a pillow. The bees take the paddy if they want it, and it doesnt lose appreciable heat, as far as I can tell. Again YMMV.
Here we are with the queen excluder device. If one must use it, please consider an important point an old time beek taught me several decades ago-- pull the damn thing back about 1 1/4" from the front edge of the box. This will allow free travels of drones within the colony/ hive. Otherwise they can plug up the bee spaces and constrict the workers from travelling to the supers. Next, when there is a barrier of honey above the queen/ brood, take the QE away as it is not necessary any longer. I have seen many hives where the QE was left on all season and clugged with dead drones fighting to get through. Imagine trying to get your groceries into your house by way of a pet door or a partly opened window. It can and does demoralize the workers during a heavy flow. So get that QE off as soon as possible. Your honey crop will be improved. Trust me, I have had over 20 years dealing with bees and it must the noted the queen will almost never find this front gap and cross up through it.
Thanks for the information! So I have been studying beekeeping for a few months hopefully starting 2025 (I am in no rush). 90% is related to Langstroth hives. Question…how different is mite management? Specifically screened bottoms and drone frames? I am having some challenges finding specific information for horizontal hives..I imaging that while horizontal Langstroth hives can and do have screened bottoms, that would defeat the purpose of Layens design?
I don't practice any particular mite management, instead keeping local bees from feral sources. Dr. Thomas Seeley has observed that, in the wild, honeybee populations in a given area will take about 4 years to develop mite resistance as bees without resistance/tolerance will die out and those with resistant traits will reproduce. I count on the natural resistance of those bees which have been living without intervention to populate my apiary and it's been a strategy that's worked well for me. If you haven't yet read "Keeping Bees With a Smile" I highly recommend it; you can get a copy here: amzn.to/3tNZptm. I also talk more about my own treatment-free practices in this video: ua-cam.com/video/2Q-Ml_3sKhk/v-deo.html.
@@SuburbanSodbuster I set 2 up both with eco floors and the bees seem to be doing well in them the deep sizes are great in that they can move up the same comb for longer due to its length during winter.
Why did you choose Layens hives as opposed to Lazutin hives whiich can hold a langstroth frame?
When I built "Taj Mahive" it was originally a horizontal Lazutin hive which could hold two levels of Langstroth frames. After I built it (before I went to Dr. Leo's seminar) I talked to Dr. Leo about it and, while he didn't really try to discourage me, he did say that managing the levels of frames in a horizontal hive can get complicated. He also mentioned that Lazutin's environment is comparable to our USDA zone 4 and that the larger frames are beneficial in a cold environment but not really needed in our area (Zone 6). Once I went to his seminar and saw the management of the Layens hive I was convinced that the ease of management was worth the non-"standard" frame size and rebuilt the interior of my large hive.
I had a top bar hive 24 bars they filled it from one end to the other , a tun of brood more than I needed , honey recourses wasn’t much the queen was a goer she layed eggs everywhere , it swarmed and the hive never really recovered after that so I went back to langstroth hives , I may try this in the future , it’s a long langstroth hive looking at it with top bar frames instead of top bars , btw you still have to inspect the brood etc from time to time I feel so disrupting the hive now and then isn’t going to be much of a inconvenience to them , proper management is a must for disease control etc.
They are by far the most important and simplest way to keep bees and bar non the most non intrusive the bees natural instincts.
It is a mistake to make a completely blank roof of the hive. This is probably good for wintering, but in some cases it is better to use the standard 435 by 460mm frame option. There are 32 frames in my Yakimov hive, you can make one main family and 1-2 layering. There are a lot of possibilities.
Regarding transportation, they are much simpler than the hives of Ruth, Dadan. I transfer and load Yakimov's (Vladimirsky) beehives alone without assistants along with bees, while doing it with one hand in my 60 years. The longest transportation of bees is 900km.
Links to the video are in the following comment.
Why not use a horizontal Langstroth hive?
The deeper frames of the Layens hive are beneficial for overwintering, and the (typically) touching top bars of the Layens frames reduce disruption of the colony during inspections.
I am doing Layens… without a real mentor.
It is so simple! Doing great right now headed into year 3.
I have two empties that I built and will be building two more over the coming months.
Gonna try to step up to 6 hives and 3 NUCs next year via catching swarms. Currently sitting at 2 hives and a NUC.
The NUC is 6 Layens frames and still pretty darn large.
Not feeding sugar water takes honey to a much higher level!!!
I made 4 Layens hives and they were a huge fail. They just abandoned the hives...every time. After they built up about 4 full frames....gone. Langstroth long is a fail also. Bees love the hive but the queens lay all in the honey.Also wasps and mice nest under the lid. I moved to standard hives. MUCH easier to deal with.