Watch this episode to learn the difference between all the various 'back saws'. Visit www.blackburnb... for books and to sign up for lessons in Woodstock NY.
At 4:00 when you discuss long grain vs. cross grain, isn't the second cut that you demonstrate also long grain? The grain is running up and down, so any cross-grain cut would require you to rotate the saw so the blade is horizontal (or, more commonly, rotate the stock).
@@tombaker3794 and therefore, tenon saws are almost all rip filed, not crosscut. Surprised and disappointed by that segment; almost everything he said about Tenon saws is the complete opposite of everything I’ve ever been taught about them.
Actually for finer saws, say under 10 to 13tpi (depending on your skill, and how aggressive you sharpen the teeth) there isn't much difference at all between so called "crosscut" teeth and so called "rip" teeth. So call them rip or crosscut its up to you. Rip and crosscut teeth are a thing indeed, but with coarser saws. Btw crosscut is more about rake than fleam, fleam does help but its not the main aspect to me.
A miner detail, across the grain, is across the growth of the tree. That is roots to leaves. Cutting down the tenon in both directions is with the grain. I still think you are wonderful.
I recently bought a Lie Neilson tenon saw. It has 11 tpi and is almost impossible to start. I have to use my cross cut saw to start the cut and then use the tenon saw. I have also used the crosscut saw to cut the tenons and it cuts them smooth and fast. The tenon saw is aggressive once the cut stars and have to be very careful not to blow out the tenon with it. Thanks for your informative video on back saws. Every beginner hand tool woodwork needs to watch it.
Graham, thank you for the information on the various back saws. What I would like to know is how to sharpen a back saw. I imagine it to be hard, and probably using specific jigs. I am aware of the triangular file, but are they all at a ‘correct’ angle or are there varied files? I may never do it myself, but the information would be useful when talking to someone who does. Perhaps back saws and saws in general? Tony
Regarding depth taper along the length of the saw, I thought that was usually the result of tensioning the blade by knocking it deeper into the spine at the toe.
The typical back is nowhere deep enough for that to have been the case, but I will admit that the example I showed looks like that could have been the case; most earlier tenon saws are much more tapered.
@@gjbmunc, I have acquired two, thus far, somewhat vintage back saws, an 8" Spear & Jackson "Spearior" - 52 [perfect handle/tote for my hand], and a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No. 14-B [handle/tote a bit over size, but usable], both of which exhibit the same heel to toe slope which, apparently, I misattributed to mishandling, faulty sharpening technique, etc. Will you be giving a lesson on straightening (back) saw blades that are (Gently) bent, but not (Hopelessly) kinked? [Guess why I'm asking.]
@@gjbmunc the thumbnail is one of the most important parts of getting new viewers to open your channel up. I think you are doing a great job and I really hope your channel grows well.
Fantastic! Thanks for the lesson, Graham! 😊 Personally, I can't use ocidental saws, unfortunately... Because of my shoulders, that hurt a lot and already gave me more than enough problems. 😕 But Japanese saws I can use easily. Go figure. Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Interesting about rip and cross cut teeth for these saws. I seem to remember Paul Sellers saying he preferred rip teeth for a tenon saw, can anyone confirm?
The teeth (and set) on a tenon saw are generally so small that it really doesn't make much diference when sawing out small tenons. Sorry for the confusion.
You are correct, as per Sellers. Actually, the smaller saw teeth get, the less likely you are to sharpen them for cross cutting. Small rip teeth work perfectly fine to cross cut. Tenon saws are sharpened rip. There is a saw specifically for cutting tenon shoulders and other stock across the grain called a carcase saw. These are generally sharpened cross cut.
In tears watching the hand sash joinery. I have 4 big sash windows build, refuse to buy spindle moulders, planar thicknesses etc. I Will copy a red meranti sash window that I got on Facebook marketplace for free, I remove brickwork and sill to fit the window in my Victorian property and it looks bloody amazing now. Cords and lead weights, very heavy and installed by myself. It’s Worth £4K, so I can get permission from wife to buy the tools in your videos saving a lot of money not having to buy modern crap sash windows made without love. I have a Disston 134 yr old sash saw, very heavy and sturdy newly sharpened…..blows modern saws out of the water. I investigate joinery of old sash windows too. Thank you.
Mr. Blackburn, During the ensuing months since I replied to a commenter here, I ran across a simple way to find out if the rake of a backsaw blade is the factory original angle, or due to some previous owner's attempt to duplicate the rake of older 18th and 19th century saw smiths for easier and better control; look at the toe [front] of the saw plate. If it is 90º to the saw back, then that's the angle the saw maker intended. If it is not, then for whatever reason it's been changed.
Japanese saws are really slick, but very fragile. They are designed for a completely different work environment, where there is never anything that you can accidentally hit it with, like a work bench, bending a tooth. I don't think they use work benches in Japan, but just sit on the floor holding the work piece with "a foot and an arse" as someone put it online.
I too didn't know about that aspect and thought it was a "Feature" brought about by age, wear and mishandling of the two rather elderly finds of mine on e-Bay. Now, I (hopefully) know better. Addendum: During the ensuing months I ran across a simple way to find out if the rake of the backsaw blade is the factory original or due to some previous owner's attempt to duplicate the rake of older 18th and 19th century saw smiths for easier and better control; look at the toe [front] of the saw plate. If it is 90º to the saw back, then that's the angle the saw maker intended. If it is not, then for whatever reason it's been changed.
Gustav[e] Stickley, when he used the saying: "Life is short; The craft so long to learn" as his motto and imprimatur, was certainly referring to how to become a Master Craftsman, an expert in his field. Just as this man was: “An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field.” - Niels Bohr
Very good. The Stair Saw: I've seen it demonstrated once on UA-cam but I believe it was demonstrated incorrectly. It was demonstrated cutting away and toward the body with one hand same as a regular saw. I use mine with two hands across the body the same way a hand plane is used just not lifting out on the reverse stroke. I find it indispensable when cutting across a table-top when cutting out the tenon for a bread board edge.
The book in question was Volume 2 of the quality paperback 'Illustrated Workshop' series - 'Traditional Woodworking Handtools' - and is available (signed) directly from my website: www.blackburnbooks.com.
A really informative video. Thanks!! Your hardbound book just came in the mail today. You crammed a wealth of information into that book and I look forward to delve into it.
Every time I see an old saw with a taper, I figured they were owned by someone who didn't sharpen it evenly. I think the toe sees more action than the heel. I didn't realize they were made that way.
Your series is fantastic, thank you! Will you be transitioning at some point to showing proper technique when using these tools? The demos during these videos have a distracted quality to them.
As a gentleman i only use gents saws. I ve always considered frame saws as backsaws. It is the same principle even if the back is not on thé blade. Would you agree ?
No. The frame saw straightens the blade by stretching it, putting it under tension, much like a guitar string. The blade of the back saw is kept straight because the back confines it, preventing it from flexing.
Hi Graham, In regards to that saw cover you demonstrated, do you have to treat the timber so that it doesn't rust the blade? Some people suggest that saw dust or shavings can lead to this. Regards, Adam
Hi Adam 👋....I love Grahm . Perhaps I can help him out here. I use PVC to make guards for chisels, axes, knives, and saws. Diameter of pipe is dependent on what you are making. For a saw, 1" is big enough. Cut slightly longer than the blade, and cut a slot along one side. Heat the PVC in a 350 degree oven until pliable, slip the softened PVC over the blade a quickly clamp between two boards (if first cools too quickly - just try again). If there is a lot if set in the saw, just slide it off the the saw (slide it off backwards and back on again) a couple of times to obtain the clear. Hope this helps, and have a happy day 😊
I have never seen a video where someone discussed attaching a fence/depth guide to a backed saw - what a useful idea.
Bad axe sells one... I think veritas carries a Japanese saw with one.
Glad it was helpful!
At 4:00 when you discuss long grain vs. cross grain, isn't the second cut that you demonstrate also long grain? The grain is running up and down, so any cross-grain cut would require you to rotate the saw so the blade is horizontal (or, more commonly, rotate the stock).
Agree with this comment 100%. The only crosscut here is when the shoulders are cut.
@@tombaker3794 and therefore, tenon saws are almost all rip filed, not crosscut. Surprised and disappointed by that segment; almost everything he said about Tenon saws is the complete opposite of everything I’ve ever been taught about them.
I thought the same thing, the only cross cuts are for the shoulders.
Still, maybe cross cut teeth work fine, I don't know...
Actually for finer saws, say under 10 to 13tpi (depending on your skill, and how aggressive you sharpen the teeth) there isn't much difference at all between so called "crosscut" teeth and so called "rip" teeth. So call them rip or crosscut its up to you.
Rip and crosscut teeth are a thing indeed, but with coarser saws. Btw crosscut is more about rake than fleam, fleam does help but its not the main aspect to me.
sorry for the confusion, the second cut is indeed ripping, but read what Darkounet says below.
13:30 Wow, the most beautiful miter saw I've ever seen. Cool.
you're welcome!
Thank you sir !
Most welcome!
Thank You Graham.... TM
My pleasure!
A miner detail, across the grain, is across the growth of the tree. That is roots to leaves. Cutting down the tenon in both directions is with the grain. I still think you are wonderful.
OK, with the grain then!
I recently bought a Lie Neilson tenon saw. It has 11 tpi and is almost impossible to start. I have to use my cross cut saw to start the cut and then use the tenon saw. I have also used the crosscut saw to cut the tenons and it cuts them smooth and fast. The tenon saw is aggressive once the cut stars and have to be very careful not to blow out the tenon with it. Thanks for your informative video on back saws. Every beginner hand tool woodwork needs to watch it.
Right on
I just found your channel. This is my second video I've watched. Loved the lesson(s). Really jealous over your miter box.
Welcome aboard! Keep checking those fleamarkets etc., they're still out there/
Hola , desde Chile , que manera de aprender cosas con usted Mrs. Graham. Congratulations.
Gracias!
Man, thank you for sharing your wisdom
My pleasure!
Good stuff😊
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you again for the wonderful information.
My pleasure!
I had always heard them called back saws. Wasn’t aware of the different types until I got into woodworking.
We all live and learn.
Sorry but aren't you still ripping with the tenon saw when cutting down from the end grain even when you rotate the end grain 90 degrees?
Yes, I was confused too, but I think he might have meant it be referring to shoulder cut which is crosscut.
Yes, you're right, it's just the shoulder cut that's a crosscut.
Here in sweden mitre saws are usually a modernized frame saw (nobex etc)but old mitre boxes were used with a back saw
There you go!
Graham, thank you for the information on the various back saws. What I would like to know is how to sharpen a back saw. I imagine it to be hard, and probably using specific jigs. I am aware of the triangular file, but are they all at a ‘correct’ angle or are there varied files? I may never do it myself, but the information would be useful when talking to someone who does. Perhaps back saws and saws in general? Tony
Use an 60degree triangular file. Sharpening is the same principle as with panel saws.
Thank you for the reply Graham 👍
Superb content.
Thanks.
Regarding depth taper along the length of the saw, I thought that was usually the result of tensioning the blade by knocking it deeper into the spine at the toe.
The typical back is nowhere deep enough for that to have been the case, but I will admit that the example I showed looks like that could have been the case; most earlier tenon saws are much more tapered.
@@gjbmunc, I have acquired two, thus far, somewhat vintage back saws, an 8" Spear & Jackson "Spearior" - 52 [perfect handle/tote for my hand], and a W. Tyzack, Sons & Turner No. 14-B [handle/tote a bit over size, but usable], both of which exhibit the same heel to toe slope which, apparently, I misattributed to mishandling, faulty sharpening technique, etc.
Will you be giving a lesson on straightening (back) saw blades that are (Gently) bent, but not (Hopelessly) kinked? [Guess why I'm asking.]
❤❤❤❤
Thanks
Change your thumbnail Graham , your expression is like you smell something bad 😬.
Done, thanks!
@@gjbmunc the thumbnail is one of the most important parts of getting new viewers to open your channel up. I think you are doing a great job and I really hope your channel grows well.
We learned a lot more about back saws. thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Our pleasure!
Fantastic! Thanks for the lesson, Graham! 😊
Personally, I can't use ocidental saws, unfortunately... Because of my shoulders, that hurt a lot and already gave me more than enough problems. 😕
But Japanese saws I can use easily. Go figure.
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
My pleasure, thanks!
I would love to see your shop in Woodstock! I could learn so much more than I already think I know.
Maybe one day I'll doa tour for an episode.
So lucky to have found this channel, excrllent addition to the profession of woodworking, and not wood machinists.
Thank you very much!
I laughed at 4'04s. This is not exactly what "sawing across the grain" is supposed to look like i guess 🙃
Sorry, I meant to be sawing the shoulder. Good catch, though with fine teeth it's not all that important. I'll try and slow down.
Super neat trick with the tenon stop clamped to the saw. I am going to use that for sure. Thank you, Graham, for another great episode!!!
Very welcome
Interesting about rip and cross cut teeth for these saws.
I seem to remember Paul Sellers saying he preferred rip teeth for a tenon saw, can anyone confirm?
Yes, ua-cam.com/video/mTqZTGPPRj0/v-deo.html So when two titans of woodworking disagree, that usually means you are free to choose 😃
The teeth (and set) on a tenon saw are generally so small that it really doesn't make much diference when sawing out small tenons. Sorry for the confusion.
You are correct, as per Sellers. Actually, the smaller saw teeth get, the less likely you are to sharpen them for cross cutting. Small rip teeth work perfectly fine to cross cut. Tenon saws are sharpened rip. There is a saw specifically for cutting tenon shoulders and other stock across the grain called a carcase saw. These are generally sharpened cross cut.
Thank you Sir. This is very interesting and important. I am intrigued.
You are very welcome
In tears watching the hand sash joinery. I have 4 big sash windows build, refuse to buy spindle moulders, planar thicknesses etc. I Will copy a red meranti sash window that I got on Facebook marketplace for free, I remove brickwork and sill to fit the window in my Victorian property and it looks bloody amazing now. Cords and lead weights, very heavy and installed by myself. It’s Worth £4K, so I can get permission from wife to buy the tools in your videos saving a lot of money not having to buy modern crap sash windows made without love. I have a Disston 134 yr old sash saw, very heavy and sturdy newly sharpened…..blows modern saws out of the water. I investigate joinery of old sash windows too. Thank you.
You're welcome1
Never heard all back saws called tenon saws. Have heard all hand saws called panel saws erroneously however.
Yes, names change from place to place. I'm just trying to be a bit more logical given the world-wide confusion!
Mr. Blackburn, During the ensuing months since I replied to a commenter here, I ran across a simple way to find out if the rake of a backsaw blade is the factory original angle, or due to some previous owner's attempt to duplicate the rake of older 18th and 19th century saw smiths for easier and better control; look at the toe [front] of the saw plate. If it is 90º to the saw back, then that's the angle the saw maker intended. If it is not, then for whatever reason it's been changed.
Makes sense!
Japanese saws are really slick, but very fragile. They are designed for a completely different work environment, where there is never anything that you can accidentally hit it with, like a work bench, bending a tooth. I don't think they use work benches in Japan, but just sit on the floor holding the work piece with "a foot and an arse" as someone put it online.
You're absolutely right. But there are still a few occasions when I find a Japanese saw is useful.
Great information on back saws and explaining the number of teeth.
Glad you enjoyed it
Hvad kan man oversætte "depth gauge" med? Dybdemåler går ikke rigtig
anything to control/limit the depth of cut.
4:10 this is also a rip cut. shoulders on the other hand are cut across the grain.
Great video as always.
Yes, you're right. of course. Sorry for the slip.
I like the idea of the cases.
Great!
thanks
You're welcome!
Another gold mine of information. I didn’t know about the tapered plates on early tenon saws, always thought it was down to wear! Thanks again.
You bet!
I too didn't know about that aspect and thought it was a "Feature" brought about by age, wear and mishandling of the two rather elderly finds of mine on e-Bay. Now, I (hopefully) know better.
Addendum: During the ensuing months I ran across a simple way to find out if the rake of the backsaw blade is the factory original or due to some previous owner's attempt to duplicate the rake of older 18th and 19th century saw smiths for easier and better control; look at the toe [front] of the saw plate. If it is 90º to the saw back, then that's the angle the saw maker intended. If it is not, then for whatever reason it's been changed.
Gustav[e] Stickley, when he used the saying: "Life is short; The craft so long to learn" as his motto and imprimatur, was certainly referring to how to become a Master Craftsman, an expert in his field. Just as this man was: “An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field.” - Niels Bohr
Very true!
Hey there ole boy from Kentucky. Your doing a great job on your channel. This video cleared up a few things for me. But what about a carcass saw?
Yep, the carcass saw is the one with crosscut teeth. Sorry not to include everything.
Very good. The Stair Saw: I've seen it demonstrated once on UA-cam but I believe it was demonstrated incorrectly. It was demonstrated cutting away and toward the body with one hand same as a regular saw. I use mine with two hands across the body the same way a hand plane is used just not lifting out on the reverse stroke. I find it indispensable when cutting across a table-top when cutting out the tenon for a bread board edge.
Good use for a stair saw - now almost extinct except for custom carpenters.
Can you share the name of your book you referenced in this video? I would like to find it to purchase.
The book in question was Volume 2 of the quality paperback 'Illustrated Workshop' series - 'Traditional Woodworking Handtools' - and is available (signed) directly from my website: www.blackburnbooks.com.
Thank You Graham - I always wanted to know what a Gent saw was. Always great and well delivered videos. Much Appreciated.
Very welcome.
A really informative video. Thanks!! Your hardbound book just came in the mail today. You crammed a wealth of information into that book and I look forward to delve into it.
Hope you enjoy it!
Every time I see an old saw with a taper, I figured they were owned by someone who didn't sharpen it evenly. I think the toe sees more action than the heel. I didn't realize they were made that way.
Happy to point it out!
Your series is fantastic, thank you!
Will you be transitioning at some point to showing proper technique when using these tools? The demos during these videos have a distracted quality to them.
Hopefully as I get to make longer videos there will be more time for nicities.
Interesting idea using a scrap and clamp as a depth guide.
Glad it helped
Where are you from?
Scotland, born in London, grew up in Europe, been here most of the time.
this was helpful
Glad to help!
As a gentleman i only use gents saws. I ve always considered frame saws as backsaws. It is the same principle even if the back is not on thé blade. Would you agree ?
No. The frame saw straightens the blade by stretching it, putting it under tension, much like a guitar string. The blade of the back saw is kept straight because the back confines it, preventing it from flexing.
Exacrly.
As an American from the Midwest, I never heard it call a tenon saw. It was a “back saw” without the “-ed.”
Yep, names change all over the place. I actually generally say 'back' and not 'backed'
LOL! It's a case of: "You say 'Potato and' I say 'Potahtoe' ... ".
I didn't know that my dovetail saw is actually a gent saw. Thank you so much for you information Graham!
Happy to help!
You're welcome!
Where I live (Sweden) most hand miter saws are actually framed saws, even modern ones you can buy new.
Yes, places in Europe yend to have different names from the US and the UK.
@@gjbmunc I think you misunderstood me now. Most mitre boxes here comes with a framed saw rather than a backed saw.
Hi Graham,
In regards to that saw cover you demonstrated, do you have to treat the timber so that it doesn't rust the blade? Some people suggest that saw dust or shavings can lead to this.
Regards,
Adam
Hi Adam 👋....I love Grahm . Perhaps I can help him out here. I use PVC to make guards for chisels, axes, knives, and saws. Diameter of pipe is dependent on what you are making. For a saw, 1" is big enough. Cut slightly longer than the blade, and cut a slot along one side. Heat the PVC in a 350 degree oven until pliable, slip the softened PVC over the blade a quickly clamp between two boards (if first cools too quickly - just try again). If there is a lot if set in the saw, just slide it off the the saw (slide it off backwards and back on again) a couple of times to obtain the clear. Hope this helps, and have a happy day 😊
Never actually had a rust problem, but maybe my saws don't spend too much time in their cases.
Not a bad idea but I'd just as soon stay away from plastic.