Engineered vs. Traditional Framing Lumber : Should You Use LSL Studs to Frame Your Home?
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- Опубліковано 22 гру 2019
- When building a high quality custom home, it is important to get the fundamentals of the house right. It is relatively easy to replace finishes down the road. Countertops, sinks, tile and flooring can all be upgraded over time as trends change or budgets rebuild. Foundations, subfloors, and framing, on the other hand, are nearly impossible to change once they are integrated into the house. As such, the materials and methods used for these critical areas must be carefully considered and selected.
In this Smith House Co. farmhouse, Jordan and Veronica are using LSL (laminated strand lumber) studs to frame the full first floor.
LSL studs have many advantages over traditional wood lumber:
1) They are completely straight from the factory - no culling of lumber to find straight studs
2) They are stable over time - the will not warp, twist or bow as they dry or age
3) They come in very long lengths - not limited to tree height, easy to frame tall entry's etc..
4) They are of consistent quality - does not change with type, age, or nature of forest (new vs old)
5) High end critical finishes are easier to accomplish with consistently straight walls
6) They are harvested from sustainable forests and more of the tree is used
However, there are a few disadvantages to LSL studs:
1) They are expensive - 2X-3X the cost of premium wood studs
2) They have glues and resins, however, the State of California finds no VOC emissions
Another thing to remember is that Engineered Lumber is very hard compared to traditional lumber.
You must use a heavy duty nailer like the Paslode Powermaster - amzn.to/2sg7lUb
Big thanks to Kyle from @RRBuildings for coming out and helping with the build!
![Lp. Последняя Реальность #107 РОДНОЙ ДОМ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IK3QKzKUlHM/mqdefault.jpg)
Do a comparison video like Matt's osb/plywood/zip comparison only compare regular studs to LSL, LVL, etc with prices and benefits/drawbacks... that's one of his most popular videos... thanks Jordan!
What do the termites think of LSL?
Thank you kindly for your awesome job, Jordan & all the JS Team looking forward to next year's content.
From my family to your family, Merry Christmas and the best to you all in the New Year.
Play Safe From Elliot Lake Ontario Canada.
Another pro for LSL's is dimensional stability. It will not be subject to shrinkage or swelling like dimensional lumber . Most people don't realize that when you frame a typical two story home with a conventionally stacked roof using dimensional lumber, standard green construction grade lumber, that by the time you are getting ready to wrap a house that the overall height of the structure has shrunk by about a half an inch typically and sometimes more. This usually isn't a problem but it can be. For instance I once framed this huge three story custom home that was going to be wrapped in some custom quarried limestone that was from France. Every piece was cut in France then numbered to be used in a very specific point in the house that we where building here in California. We had to be within 1/4 of an inch of spec by the time we where at the roofline. That was three stories. All of the exterior walls where 2 X 8's and the windows all had these funky insets that where needed to make the stone fit properly. All of the lumber was kiln dried to help deal with the shrinkage and since this was back in the early 90's it was all select struct not just #2 like it is now. Back then #2 was block material and you generally didn't frame with it. You do now because that's what the lumber yards sell.
I think if LSL's had been available back then it would have been so much easier to frame this house. Of all the custom houses I have framed over the years and there where many I think this particular house had the most strict tolerances of any I have ever framed. The windows and doors had to be with in 1/8 of an inch in all directions from call out and there could be no cumulative errors at all. Deviations of more then an 1/8 of an inch meant the stone would not fit and that would be bad. From the very start this house was slated to be exposited in the magazine "Architectural Digest" so it was important that everything was done to the highest standard. With the lumber that we get today I wouldn't even try to frame that house. No way. So there are definitely places where these manufactured forestry products will make a major difference. I just kind of wish they where around back then.
Thanks for your videos Jordan. I learn something new each time.
Thanks for watching!
I think LSL and engineered wood is the future of building wooden structures. Good video explaining the differences! Merry Christmas
Thanks and Merry Christmas to you!
We find them useful in the situations you outlined as well as a couple other's. Tall walls expecally walls over 16' they are really nice for, and they are nice for faccia as well they keep it nice and straight without moving
Great demo of the wet pieces.
Jordan, good to see you back, missed you (was a little worried).
Also, best of the holidays to you and your family.
I can't speak to the benefits and potential issues with the various engineered lumber. I know if I was building or doing a major remodel I'd be looking at it. It looks like in the correct application it could really be the best and most cost effective product to use.
I am frustrated with the the selection of treated lumber available to me ( in the PNW, Seattle area).
The sometimes referred to as "Blue" or "Pink" boards, that were anti-fungal and maybe resisted flame spread aren't easily available. A few years ago I could get "Pink" sheathing and 2x4s at HD, but those are gone.
I'm doing some seismic retro work, and if in contact with foundations I want treated. Everything commonly available is copper treated and will rapidly eat away any structural fittings. Boric treated is preferred but I need to search out specialty lumber yards to find it, and they often are very limited in what they have.
I fortunately don't have termites driving my decisions, but what do you use (and why) when it comes to below grade or foundation contacting lumber?
This was cool... as I had heard the term LSL, but not had it explained. Thank you for the show & tell :-)
You're welcome. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Awesome shot setup.
Good video. Keep’em coming
Will do, thanks!
I used two buy 10 engineered trusses 20 years. They're super sweet
Thanks for the video, and for the clear and concise explanations. You mentioned the differences in nailing, and using air nailers with LSL. How does LSL take screws? I use construction screws for all of my framing instead of nails -- is this going to be a problem or more difficult when screwing an LSL stud? Thanks a lot.
From what I have heard the biggest disadvantage with LSL and LVL (except price) is that it takes longer to dry than regular studs. The good part is that it takes longer to soak up water. But it can be a real problem for some constructions
I love lsl,lvl, and psl lumber when I'm looking at peak strength and straightness. But the cost is a hard one to swallow at times
Yeah. It's a great product to use where the budget allows and where the design mandates it. Otherwise it's tough to swallow the price hike just for bragging rights.
Merry Xmas!!!
Quality materials make a quality product.
The details matter!
Merry Christmas
I've been thinking about TStuds and wondered why that manufacturer didn't go with the LSLs. I know it would add cost to an already costly product but the benefits, esp. with the new framing techniques (24 inches off center) would be worth it to me.
they claim t stud much stronger than a regular stud there is no need to make it more expensive
On your 3-1/2 headers on exterior walls. Cap the bottom with a 2x6 while framing or in your case just rip a piece of 2x at 2” for the bottom Sheetrock bracing and fill that cavity with 2” of foil faced foam. It’s all about r12 over your headers. My insulation contractor has been doing it for us for 15+ years.
Good tip. Thanks!
I wonder if there are any VOCs in the glues and if they outgas into the space when the envelope is tight. Perhaps an ERV/HRV solves that concern for folks.
What about fire resistance and time to failure?
Can LSL be used to build model railroad bench work? The biggest table i would build would be 8'x8' and i was wondering how strong LSL would be on edge. Traditional lumber simply is not straight enough to use for this.
started with spruce doug fir framing lumber. 4 years ago swapped to lsl. For the last year switched to lvl studs and i will never go back
Jordan, get whoever is editing this to normalise the audio, the loud techno in intro and outro vs the soft level of your voice (on average) is not nice on your viewers, especially with headphones. Maybe use a softer piece of music for intro and outro, too.
Does LSL and LVL off gas? Also, well does it accept fasteners?
I'd love to use these as rafters we often have to buy number 1 or best of the number 2 2x12s and they get expensive the last house we did we had to order 28 foot 2x12s and these lsl's would have made a much stronger and straighter roof...
I plan to build my next home and with it on the river there will be LOTS of glass. I was thinking framing around the big windows as well as the areas you mentioned (tiled showers) would be great places to use LSLs.
The next house sounds amazing! The lsl's will not let you down on tall straight walls.
@@JordanSmithBuilds I love videos like this. I have a huge spreadsheet I am putting together of "best practices" for virtually every part of the home build.
Engineered is by far a better product, the only downside is cost. Getting people to switch is going to be a big deal, but I'd love to frame with LSL over Doug Fir!
Great video explaining the two Jordan.
Matt. Does it save you time? Or just call backs.
Thanks Matt!
What kind of off-gassing happens?
Has there been any studies on sound barrier from traditional lumber vs LSL? Wood transmit sound, so I'm curious if the LSL studs with all the resins and stuff used to manufacture them adds any additional sound barrier to them?
They are definitely more dense, so they probably carry sound differently, but I have not seen any studies.
How does it compare to steel studs tho?
What the longevity of that stuff? Can I come back in a hundred years and it's still holding together? That resin/glue can't last forever and will eventually break down from the heat and them houses will come crumbling down.
Are we going to find down the road that this out gasses or isnt resistant to moisture etc?
Some of these new materials seem good at the outset but then down the road problems appear.
California has deemed these products to be non emitters. Which is crazy because California Dean Starbucks coffee to be carcinogenic! But it is good to have a skeptical eye when using new products. I try to read as much testing as I can get my hands on as well as conduct my own tests where possible to be comfortable with a product before I use it in my homes, but the proof will be 50+ years down the road.
What is the weight difference?
I’m watching this because I got intrigued from a TikTok talking about the stuff
For walls that you need to be extra straight would it make sense to use steel studs for non load-bearing walls?
Probably not true everywhere, but code doesn't allow steel studs in residential construction where I am.
building in the PNW we find that mold starts to grow much easier on the brown pieces of wood on the web of floor trusses. the flanges are solid wood and rarely get mold growth along with the dim lumber in the rest of the house. my worry is that with engineered wood framing members the mold cleanup cost's will be much higher after dry out is done.
Very interesting. Have you used open floor trusses instead of engineered I Joists?
@@JordanSmithBuilds no, they are not that common, though i did seem some today on a BMC truck while on lunch, it didn't look anywhere near enough for a whole house though.
How do you feel about finger jointed lumber when used correctly? A couple of the 2 most successful builders in my area use finger jointed lumber. They build lots of high end custom homes from 3-4 thousand feet and they have a year long waiting list.
Since you can use engineered lumber at 24 instead of 16 oc will the decrease in material offset the added cost?
It could, but you could use advanced framing techniques and 24 inch centers with traditional lumber as well.
Given that this material is engineered, would it be possible to have LSL's strong enough that you could frame at a larger spacing (say 32"oc) and get to a point where the $/sqft is equivalent to traditional framing?
the problem with going wider than 24in is that your sheathing products both interior and exterior have to span large gaps. This can make them feel flimsy at best and we can them at worst.
Then if you have a floor above it you have to put the floor beams in the same spacing, it would mean larger floor beams. Or you could use headers.
24 inches of spacing is an ideal width, sheeting and things like that is normally produced to fit this.
Can you elaborate more on the cost difference for the material? Everyone says more expensive but I can't easily find out how much it is!
It's easily two to three times the cost of a premium stud.
Will using metal studs eliminate these uneven issues? I’m sure metal studs have their owns pros and cons and may not be an option for every build location- From south Florida and I see many homes built out of metal and curious if even metal have these uneven issues.
Yes, metal studs are extremely straight for interior studs. But remember, there is no “meat” to a metal stud. Which translated means screws and nails don’t have much to grab to. So wood backing is generally needed for cabinetry.
It seems as strong as they are, you can on at least 1 story houses go 2x4 24" O.C. to cut costs vs 16" O.C.
Is it more flammable
Jordan, why the standard lumber on the floors and joists? Also if you are using LSL's, why are you not using advanced framing methods?
We could have definitely used advanced framing, but LP wanted to show traditional framing on this house. They wanted to show how it was a plug and play replacement. I love advanced framing and you'll definitely be seeing more of that from our builds moving forward.
i dont why these dont just become industry standard, sure from an environmental stand point lsl is far better as you could essentially make them out of scrap wood, or from very very young trees. If more manufacturers started making them, and started competing for the market, it would bring the cost down drastically.
In a house fire, does LSL burn quicker than traditional lumber?
I don't know. It makes sense that an i joist would fail before a solid wood joist, but I don't know about an LSL burning faster than a stud.
Just looked on Home Depot's website. A 3 pack of 2x4x8 LSL boards costs $50. Yikes!
Random question not directly related.
Why don't people build their entire houses out of the pressure treated and sealed wood that you would use for decking? Seems like it'd be a step up if the wood was made to deal with moisture and then put in a place where it wasn't exposed to it/barely exposed to it.
Money. It costs a fair bit more and people tend to be EXCEPTIONALLY cost sensitive in the US. You can make a house that lasts generations, but it costs more and people just don’t care to pay for it most the time.
Every nail or screw would have to be stainless or coated (minimum) as the chemical used for Pressure Treated corrode regular fasteners to the point of failure. So as the other person said, this increases price on top of the lumber being more expensive. Also, you can get PT that may be 40% moisture content. You spend time picking out straight boards, build walls, and by the time it dries out it can twist and bow into a mess. You need PT for bottom plates or bucks in direct contact with concrete, but that's about the only place you'll need them within the building envelope.
In addition to the other good comments, it would take forever for that lumber to dry out and stabilize. I guess it could theoretically be done, but I think that I would look at other more resilient products if I wanted the ultimate waterproof house, like stone.
@@JordanSmithBuilds Is stone really waterproof though? Been looking for genuine waterproof stuff lately and it seems like both concrete and "stone" are actually porous and are basically slow sponges. Only thing I've found so far that seems actually waterPROOF is quartz, which comes way too many other limitations/cons to be practical.
I didn't realize that decking lumber came wet. #TheMoreYouKnow
It twists warps and the chemicals used can't be that great for you
Jordan Tx for the info. Do me a favor and remove those nails from the LSL sample ;) Tx, Rich
I pulled them after the video!
@@JordanSmithBuilds just yankin' your chain. Happy Holidays :)
sounds like OSB in a dimensional lumbar?
It is an oriented strand board, but it is highly engineered and designed for studs instead of sheathing.
So mutant wood is more expensive than real wood?
What do you think of steel stud framing?
I like the idea of steel stud framing, although I've never done a house with it.
Steel studs have a tremendous thermal bridging effect on exterior walls, to the point of almost being pointless to to use insulation
Do a fire burn test.
Why are you still framing 16" o/c?
Since this was a show home for LP engineered wood products, we wanted to stay traditional for a lot of the rest of the build. We usually would go with 24 inch centers. Thanks for asking!
I love puppies.
Me too!!
I bet my red chalk line won't show up on the orange edges of the LSL's.
I recommend using blue chalk.
Black chalk
So they're chip board cut in 2x4's.
No. It is more like OSB, but more water resistant.
@@chrismoore9997 Same shit, different name.
LSL uses wider, longer and slightly thicker strands. About 3"W, 16"L. OSB (aka Apenite) uses much smaller strands and in less layers. The process to produce LSL lumber is way more stringent than OSB.
@@davecameron9574 That's great. Bet it's not a big enough strength difference between a self made version from cut up osb to warrant the cost difference.
Anybody interested in exploring the development of Hurricane shelters, able to withstand the next Hurricane Michael, including the ability to absorb a full size tree falling on it. I could see LSL laminated 8x8 beams. Zip system exterior insulation, 1/4 inch welded steel clad. Poo Pottys and survible generater stations optional.
??? Anybody ???
Matt, I hope you see this, also.
...I love engineered puppies...wot??!
You win the "watched the whole thing" award!
Ask your electricians and plumbers how they feel about the stuff. Nailing boxes into and drilling holes through it is a major pain in the ass. Definitely slows you down. Not a knock against it, just something to be aware of.
Also, I'm not a fan of puppies. Sorry.
Ok, I am not sure what happened in your childhood that made you not like puppies, but I am sorry. 🤣🤣 Great point on electrician and plumbing struggles. This is super dense stuff and would be much more difficult to cut and nail. I have not thought of that. Thanks for watching and for the great comment!