The Problematic "Three Body Problem" Problem
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- Опубліковано 15 гру 2023
- The Problematic "Three Body Problem" Problem
Remembrance of Earth's Past by Liu Cixin
The Three Body Problem
The Dark Forest
Deaths End
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![The Dark Forest [spoiler] Review | The Three Body Problem](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/axAdVnKTnZo/mqdefault.jpg)
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I don't know how you managed to give three perspectives of a trilogy and still not really spoil any of it for potential readers. Excellent video Moid.
Thanks Bob
Definite agreement, the things was a treat!
Moid is the three body problem.
Just finished The Dark Forest last week. Really didn't care for 'main character falls in love with woman he imagines; later UN finds woman matching his description of her; they cohabitate and have a kid" as a plot device.
That whole thing was so weird and offputting. I though it was probably trying to show what would likely happen if any normal person was given unlimited resources, but the wallfacer plot device gives you carte blanche to be like "that was all part of his plan" which I don't love. I did enjoy the series overall, but the first one was by far the weakest for me, and that whole bit was a significant contributor to that! The prose, too.
@@jaspertandy Can someone explain why three body problem gets so much flack for prose, characters and sexism, but Asimov's and Arthur C Clarke's novels which are arguably much, much worse in those aspects (and ideas as well) get a pass? The protagonist in Rendezvous with Rama has like 3 wives and it's portrayed as normal for any man of the future.
Sorry, I am with Red on this one. People keep saying "yes, I agree with all the weaknesses (poor writing, characterless characters, obtuse social theory), BUT..." If you have to say "BUT" then you are just making excuses for a book that missed the mark! There are truly great books out there, and the authors did the work to write well. Reward those authors. Love your reviews!
Yep glad I didn't waste my time reading these. Normally your first gut reaction is the right one, LOL
I liked how all three perspectives looked like they were quietly listening when it wasn't their turn to talk. Really sold the idea that we were watching three separate people with three different impressions of the series. Well done!
Absolutely banger video. Best and most level-headed coverage of this series that I've seen. I somehow found myself agreeing almost completely with all three perspectives.
what a coincidence that the best take is the one you agree with. not to attack you but a reminder that we should always watch our biases
The Three Body Problem with a Discussion Between Three Bodies lmao, good one Moid. Not sure everyone got the joke but brilliant execution as always mate
I feel silly for not seeing this lol.
I wrote before I noticed others saying the same sort of thing I did, have to agree, very engaging video!
I never 'gush' in my comments, but a couple of minutes in, your three selves carrying on a conversation from 3 POV's was really impressing me, in its cohesiveness, its 'give and take', its tone, content, and finally, its effect. Excellent editing. Wonderful to feel I was a fly on the wall taking in a real conversation. Before pressing "Comment",
...I couldn't help noticing other viewers pointing out the same thing...
🙂 Truly well done!!!
Thank You
I loved the originality of this review format. Thanks Moid.
The videography is once again innovative. Moid, you just never run out of good ideas. Keep up the good work!
I'm largely with Red Moid here. I'm mostly frustrated with the books where there's a great plot in here but it's let down at almost every turn with how Liu decides to pace things, to depict how decisions are made and actions are taken. There's a lot I really enjoyed in the books - Zhang Behai's arc in Dark Forest, and the crew of Blue Space investigating the weird dimensional pockets in Death's End stand out - but in those sections the characters feel like they have agency and drive, while for most of the books it feels like the characters are there to bear witness to the next thing.
Same. The Three Body Problem was good, The Dark Forest was okay (had some interesting ideas but it was erratic pacing wise.) Death’s End was just bad.
100% agree
Yet he didn't want to just come out And hate it, he gave it a chance but you can tell he didn't love any of these books. I think it's geared toward less experienced sci-fi enthusiasts
My biggest critique of the series is that every now and then while reading you will run into what I can only describe as a metaphorically patch of literary quick sand that you cant back out of and have to trudge though to get to the other side. These patches aren't very big or deep but do take away from the experience of reading the books. And despite there only being like a hand full of these bogs, the first and arguably largest one just so happens to be the beginning of the first book. 😅
Brilliant and balanced take on a book series that has generated a lot of interest. I've read Three-Body and am looking forward to the others. You new home looks lovely. Thanks, Moid, and Happy Holidays.
very original way to introduce readers to this book.
it's not objective, it's not the only one review, the absolute and definitive one.
it's several voices, several subjectivities, it's thought-provoking.
it's definitely smart. and it's actually a good way to review books in general, it's kind of humble to play different variations.
and the gimmick is quite cool and entertaining. maybe you can make more out of the characters and push them a little bit further.
I loved the way you split this video up with different view points Moid. Great video! The trilogy is still a TBR for me but will get to it eventually.
I was never a reader until my twenties then someone passed me the wasp factory, then my favourite book the bridge and then started reading the culture books, thirty years on and not reading anything for a long time I picked up the three body problem and it blew my mind with its ideas, sure it may have been written before but this was my first taste of big concepts and I followed with the series leading me back into reading and sci fi, I loved the books
Congratulations on giving the viewer all possible outcomes after reading this series and showing us that all opinions - good, mediocre or bad - are valid depending on the reader! I've seen so many videos saying the series is worth reading or don't bother - but nothing that gives the true potential outcome of spending your time investing into this series! Well done!! Having said that...I just bought the first book and have decided I'd like to find out which type of reader of this series that I am. Thanks for preparing me for the journey - whichever way it turns out! Stay safe!
Top notch video once again. What a crackingly unique way to review a book. Pro's and con's delivered perfectly. This book has been on my TBR for a while and you have offered up plenty to consider which probably will aid my reading of this book to be that much more enjoyable. Excellent stuff.
Really good video! Acknowleding the really cool ideas weighted down by the weak characters which adds a lot of fat that could be cut down makes this probably the best review I've seen on the series.
Also, please do this angel/devil dynamic again, i really enjoy it. The angel being very sincere followed by the devil going "you're wrong. It's shit. No i will not elaborate" is very funny.
I thought the style had some humor to it that most people missed.
This is after 100 pages long setpiece of alien technology completely obliterating the solar system in the final book, after all that, this paragraph literally made me laugh out loud at work while I was reading:
"They screamed, they cried and here came the final voice of the human race from the solar system:
" Aaaaaaaaaaa"
Also it's really weird how westerners completely forgive/ignore the dryness of Arthur C clarke's or Asimov's characters and writing style, yet Liu Cixin's style which is at least 50% more interesting gets a lot of flack from the same readers who ignore the same (let's be real: worse) problems of western authors. Just really really weird how that is, sure it has nothing to do with [REDACTED]? 🤔
You know, there’s good remedies for schizophrenia nowadays.
Great way to review it. I get your points because I also struggled with the style, but in the end the scale of the story and the multitude of ideas just did it for me.
Missed ya Moid. I'm gonna drop my comment before I watch, just to say this looks like a great idea of a topic to handle. Thanks, And keep doing what ever makes you happy.
Have a GREAT new year!
I enjoyed all three books, I think I agree with both the praise and the criticism. There's a lot bad about the books, but there's also a host of interesting plot lines and ideas that I still think about years later. There's not many series that can say that.
Finished the 2nd one recently. I dunno, I adored it. That teardrop scene will stay with me forever.
I was hoping the humans would try an antimatter attack against it. Like the sophons, for me the teardrop relied too much on narrativium.
I’ve been putting these books off for sooo fracking long. But let me say this, Moid, I think this is your best video yet. Very well executed, and funny. Keep it up.👍
Discovered your channel through the Peter Watts interview. Great work and content!
Greetings from Argentina.
I loved the Three Body Problem trilogy though.
I really enjoyed doing the monthly readalong and talking about the book with folks on the discord. Looking forward to the next few!
Damn this is such a fun format to have three experiences mix into one towards the end! well done on a great discussion
I love this, the bouncing back and forth between the different ideas and criticism of the good point about the book and the negative. I felt the same way, it was not the smoothest or the most well written but some of the ideas in here are mind boggling. Well worth your time imo.
I love this video and concept - brilliant!!
This was really well done. Cheers all around! And I’m glad you got back to this series and read all three. I quite enjoyed it myself, though I don’t think I’m in the mind-blown camp either.
When people react to this book complaining about the characters being flat or the environment driving the story, I think they don’t consider where the story is from- the culture the story is from. A lot of Chinese art has the character fade into the environment specifically so the viewer ponders on the whole and how the individual isn’t separate from the whole. I think that’s something like what Cixin was trying to do. It’s different from what most Western readers are familiar with though, so some of them are turned off by it. It’s a shame, because they could learn something if they did spend time with those ideas. My two cents anyway.
My experience was TBP: This has bad writing but kinda cool. TDF: Why is so much of this about thus knob's fake girlfriend? DE: 🤯
Brilliant video! I don't recall how I was introduced to Three Body - but I was lucky. I struggled through the first book as well. I came in with zero knowledge of the Chinese revolution. I struggled with the last name first thing and had to flip back to remember which characters were which. However, I did have a strong amateur knowledge of astronomy and physics. That helped a lot. When you are ready to read it again I highly suggest the audiobook. In that format, the characters feel more fleshed out and focused. Having read the book prior to the listen, I was able to relax on the ideas, being familiar already, and catch a lot of the nuance and humor in the character interactions.
Love the way you do your videos Moid, a fresh way of breaking down how we sometimes feel pulled in different directions by a book. I haven't read these books yet, but somehow it feels to me like a similarly divisive response to 1Q84, a book I felt was compellingly and brilliantly written but let down by its plot.
The Three Body Problem reviewed by The Three Body Moid... classic
i think the writing suffers from a loss in translation. The big idea in this series tries to answer the question... Where are all the aliens?
I suspect the Cixin Liu's answer to the question is very Chinese. China has had terrible relations with just about everyone throughout history. The mongols, the Japanese, Koreans, all of Europe and the USA too. We want to "Go Boldly Where No One Has Gone Before." Chinese would rather we just leave them alone. This is manifested in Dark Forest Theory. Better to huddle in the cold and dark forest rather than attract malevolent intention by lighting a warming fire. Seems very Chinese to me based on what I know of their history.
nothing at all is lost in translation. ken lui is by far the best you could want and a better scifi writer himself. i didnt really get snything chinese out of it other than the robotic characters that you care little to nothing about and are expendable … to the story of course but irl to the fascist chinese government.
Eh don't buy it, he was a fan of Asimov and Clarke so I don't think it's that big of a gap that people make out to be.
It is worth noting that "Chinese" is a flexible meaning. Most popularly, it refers to the Han Chinese, who were the conglomeration of various competing tribes, the Huaxia, along the Yellow and Yangtse rivers, though not the oldest culture. China pretends these wars and expansions were not imperial in nature, but when one takes over another and the tribe flees? It is a series of conquests. Modern China ignores the distinctions, but ancient Chinese historian like Sima Qian wrote of the differences as a 'chasm' between them and the not-them Chinese, the Hua-Yi conflict--which itself ignored the different tribes that made up the Han that existed prior. Unified rule is what allowed anti-warlord Confucian philosophy to arise and the ideal of civilized behavior (if you behaved like Han and recognized the Emperor as supreme). Because of this prejudice, in 350 CE, three of the five recognized Chinese barbarian groups were targeted in the Wie-Jie genocide, led by usurper Emperor Ran Min. Various near Han Chinese took on and competed over the identity of Chinese, sinicisation, some for the purpose of ruling. There was a recognition of different but equal of dynasties. Arguments went back and forth, one emperor argued in favor of equality, another recalled all manuscripts because he thought they made the government look bad, etc. The idea of culture over race turned plain racist in the late 19th century, but would end most recently with a declaration that all groups inside China were Chinese, rather than barbarian.
How does this apply to the Dark Forest theory? In Chinese history, they were the threat in the forest until they sought peace because they won. This is how the cycle goes.
This was such a great way of pointing out what people love and hate about the series. For me, I am so excited you decided to continue. I was k e of the people proselytizing for you to keep going to book 2.
I've never read these books but really enjoy this video, this format is super fun!
whoop so excited! (amazing stuff! the droplet destroying the fleet was physics fun! like the gatling gun scene at the end of the last samurai.)
It was an interesting read for me . First book is a cool (and sometimes pretty terrifying ) exploration of first contact , second book is a nice exploration of one of the Fermi Paradox solutions , third book went batshit insane with the ideas. I definitely think that the time invested was worth it , however people comparing the prose and world building to Banks and Herbert are IMHO delusional . Great video Moid(s) ! .
Herbert is unfairly bashed for his prose imho
@@WeWereTheStormbooktube really likes to trash the prose of every book in existence that isn't written by Mccarthy or Faulkner.
i've missed you!-thanks.
Cool format 🙏
Wow, great review. Loved the three way tussle!
Never mind the SF, you are blowing my mind here MOID! I am in the camp of been-reading-Science-Fiction-for-50+-years and wondered what all the fuss was about when I read this series and the writing was weird, even tedious. I have re-read 3 body but not the other two yet because of the hype and yes I liked it better the second time.
Woop woop. Great vid moid. Keep em coming!
Good to see that you are back again, Moid!
This video is a rewatch for me 😂 You deserve so many more subscribers, Moid!
Thank You
Super appreciate the honest perspective
I couldn't finish it. Hated it. Fantastic review - not enough to have me try it again, though.
BTW, you all settled in after the move?
Moid can review kitchen utensils and I’d watch it.
I might get more out of this series after doing some research into the “three-body” hypothesis, which is a real thing. I had no idea about it going into the book.
Perfect! By far the best review of this ambivalent trilogy I have ever seen!
Tedious.. yes, that’s why barely finished the first one and stopped 100 pages into Dark Forest
I do plan on finishing but just not a priority (after a year)
I slogged my way through the trilogy (took me four months) because of Moid's philosophy: "Read it! You can't have a proper opinion if you haven't read it". And I think people should give it a try... you might like it.
TBP fans should know that Netflix is making a series on it.
I hope that the Netflix series will be good (I am not very optimistic). I saw a chinese adaptation of the first book : it's easy to adapt the plot, but more difficult to adapt the idea, or the sense to be a "lucky witness".
Slogged and slugged through the first one, was under-impressed. Should I try again? Help me Holy Trinity!
This is a great review - I love the multi-pronged approach here! I think (probably like most who've read the trilogy) you represented my own view here very well. At the time I read this series, I fit into the "this is all brand new to me" mold. In fact, if nothing else I credit it with putting me on to sci-fi as a genre. (Previously, I leaned much more into the very specific non-fiction sub-genre of disaster stories - to this day I'd list 'Skeletons on the Zahara' as one of my all-time favorite reads.) But I was given the trilogy as a birthday gift and read all three books in quick succession. I loved it, and while I did pick up on the clunkiness of the writing and often one-dimensionality of characters, I wrote all of that off to an issue of lost in translation. I was definitely among those who loved the ideas enough to look past any limitations in the delivery of those ideas. Have I read what I'd consider better series at this point (some four to five years after reading this)? Sure - Tchaicovsky's Children of Time series, Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga, and Wendig's Wanderers are some of my personal favorites. But I'm not sure I'd have ever gone down the road that led to those if I hadn't been pulled in by this series back then. And I would still rank Three Body Problem pretty high up there just for its ambition: Liu packs a lot of very big ideas into one series here and even if you don't like the way he presents some of those ideas as a writer, you still can see what he's driving toward and just walking away with so many different things swimming around in your head makes it a worthwhile read.
Brilliantly done. Cheers.
Great review - subscribed.
Loved the 3 body problem trilogy. No sweet happy ending. Grim story. Although a bit difficult to follow with the chinese names all over it, it's an amazing series that will stay with me my whole life.
Outstanding review , you kill me !
I loved the style of this video. I also felt totally torn this way. It has so many cool ideas, but the writing it's one of the only books I've read where the writing was bad enough for it to be distracting.
I lived in Azië for some time and from that periode got some immersion in the culture. The way of being, thinking, decision making etc . The characters felt very familiar to me . The author is Chinese. Different culture that the West . Maybe that has an influence .
I really liked the Three Body Problem trilogy! Now that I've watched your debate I'm feeling like reading it again, thanks!
And by the way, at around 7.05 in your video you are doing a quite good resemblance of Nicola Walker :)
Top review, and perfect for the series
great format for this book. i liked the first.. the ideas presented.. the dark forest reveal.. but man the characters were brutal.
cheng xin was intolerable to me and thoroughly ruined the last 2 books for me..
edit: 13:42... very VERY good point. this is really one of those things were u and 3 friends with basically the same exact tastes in books could all walk away in one of the 3 camps u presented here in some form. great review!
I like that yoj showed two conflicting opinions without making one of them talk stupidly or snob.
a irl three body review lol - this was awesome very good work nigel 🎉
I'm one of those people who just didn't like the book. I really enjoyed the format of this review, though. Having different "Moids" reviewing from different points if view was entertaining and I think resulted in a balanced and informative video. 👍
Very thankful for this video. I've been a little bemused by all the love for this and now I think I understand it. The love is not unwarranted, but these books are not for me.
It was (imo) an interesting insight into the authors' culture. The way the book is written, how men and women are portrayed, how the characters' agency (or lack thereof) is portrayed, the thorough paranoia that the characters go through... IMO that is very revealing and a way to learn of a *completely* different mindset/worldview than mine.
That's what helped me get through it, because, yes, this series is a difficult one to read through even though the ideas are interesting.
To me the most memorable thing about book one was the description of Red Guard actions, since i saw the same sort of thing among lefties in the US.
Moid, your video's have become amazing. I always click on your videos. Your videos gone from content to art.
Bravo, well played. An excellent summary. I might even no go and read the books too.
I just recently felt the itch to read(listen) to these again, but I definitely looked back with rose tinted glasses. If I could summarize how I feel about TBP, it would be "this series and plot is better experienced summarized and analyzed by a youtube commentator than actually read"
I'll take that as a compliment, thank you
Welcome Back!!! Thought you fell into the void, Moid!
I love the "three body review" approach. :) Thank you for the honest review.
This was a terrific way to play out the review[s].
Thank you
Very well edited. Given how they all come together at the end, I'm curious what order you filmed each review?
The invisible gun holster vest on the ultra positive character was a nice touch. A+
Honestly felt it refreshing to read something not character focused. It’s a story about humanity and I think the author showed the different types of people and philosophies very well.
I see a lot of comments about people saying it’s chinese propaganda…wtf how?! I honestly felt like it was the opposite! It was precisely because ye went through what she did in china that she responded and lead humanity down a spiraling path to destruction.
I loved the series and it kept me thinking about the ideas presented in the books long after I had finished. It’s changed the way I see the universe and that doesn’t happen to me often.
I, admittedly, don't have a huge breadth of sci fi reading history; AND, admittedly, I have only read the first book. However, I really enjoyed it. There's a decent amount of talk in here about "writing dexterity" or "clunky storytelling" and I mostly attribute that to translational differences. I've read a good handful of books that have been translated to english (different genres of course), but I always find a bit of clunkiness to it. I'm not sure about how original the ideas presented in the first book were, but again, I will admit to being a newcomer to the genre. But as far as shortcomings in tone, wit, or dexterity I generally chalked up to translational differences
Still stoked to read the rest of the trilogy though!
Nah that's just how he writes as I have asked Mandarin speakers who have said.
I love Three Body problem so much. I love the writing style, the characters, everything. My dad strongly recommended it to me and it got me back into reading SF after almost 20 years - leading to Reynolds, Hamilton, Watts, etc, and this youtube channel. So, that's my 2 cents. One note about the imaginary girlfriend scenes in TDF: (spoiler free addendum for youtube comment readers who actually click 'more'): These 200 pages were agonizingly boring for a reason: People. Literally. Live. Like. This. This was not a big part of the SF plot, but simply showing from the outside what humans look like when the most crucial problems in all history are waiting to be solved, and they turn away from reality, waste their potential, turn inward to FANTASY. video games, porn, imaginary GF, whatever it is. In fact this problem will only get worse in coming years. So yea, I hated reading it, but it had a purpose, just not one very close related to the main plot.
That was a delight - congratulations to all three of you. Still not sure whether I want to read the trilogy or not…
Awesome video 👌🏻
Nice review, I had no desire to read the Remembrance of earths past books before your review and still have none.
I highly recommend the audiobook, it will really assist with the Chinese if you don’t already have a familiarity.
Also I think the Dark Forest is maybe the best one. But honestly I read them back to back.
Great reviews! I try to use some comparison and contrast when I review, but this technique is very comprehensive. I am in the Devil Moid camp on this one.
Blimey! (I am not exactly certain what that means, but probably close enough)
Very good idea with the 3 perspectives!
Yes the books are very overconvoluted, and it's a pain getting through the first one. But for me the idea of dimensional collapse as a weapon blew my mind. Great voids as collapsed 2D space, remnants of war. That was very eerie. The characters may be not very relatable (maybe they are to chinese), but the worldbuilding is credible. But yeah no need to read it again.
I concur! Preach on, brother.
Great video on several levels, and it`s reminded me that I still haven`t read Death`s End yet.
I recognize that you’re using a gimmick here to get your point across, but I just had to comment to say that I would love to see more videos where you debate yourself about the quality of a book or series. This was a lot of fun to watch!
Wow, great video.
This review just won you SF (or is it "SciFi"?) booktube for the week. Perceptive well past simplistic "loved it yay" or "hated it bleurgh" write-offs - with a balanced verdict that pretty much chimes with mine. Appreciated too your defence of the reuse of previously worked themes/subgenres: New is great but that doesn't prevent Old redone well being absolutely excellent too. Noticeable that this series' detractors tend to fall amongst those SF readers/critics who swing more to the "fiction" and away from the "science" of SF. Which itself is fair enough - not their "jam" one might say. But the 3BP should, as you have done, be recommended to those who enjoy some strong science in their fiction. Subscribed.
Hey that was me! Haha, great video Moid. I always enjoy the way you talk about books
Fame at last, Jimmy
@@MediaDeathCult My mother is going to be so proud
I'm on Red Team.
This video was WAY more entertaining than The Three Body Problem. I was so annoyed by the first book that I dumped it half way through 🤮
I'm with devilish Moid 😈
New to the channel, great review - very creative, will stay!
I would compare it to Larry Nivens "The Mote in Gods Eye" and Stanislaw Lems "Fiasco". I kept reading, because i wanted to know, how far it would go down the rabbit hole. And it went very far.
No i think that's just human, every culture that has come into contact with a less advanced culture has either wiped them out or enslaved them. The only real exception that i know of is the Sentinels of North Sentinel Island. We've left them alone. But even that doesn't work because we HAVEN'T left them alone, and even if we do now they've attacked anyone who comes close themselves. RoEP shows how the chain of suspicion can cause even "peaceful" cultures to act aggressively by default.
This video made me schizophrenic. Great stuff, Moid, as usual.
I've read a damned lot of sci-fi and its concepts really blew my mind. Except for the finale of Death's End, which honestly felt a bit trite. But like, the Sophons, the planetary system with a culture that evolved around an aperiodic star, the dark forest itself...really phenomenal ideas.