I’m the one who left the comment about Savannah on the forum and I actually work next to the port itself Honestly the response to community feedback has been pretty stellar so far from Paradox and it’s great to see that literally anyone can have their suggestions heard Also kinda neat to actually have an impact on game design even if it is something as small as a natural harbor location lol
I will wager that if Paradox does not create a playable SoP system, that within a few months of release the modder community will have created a whole system to make SoPs playable with a path for the player to turn them from SoPs to settled states. I *think* the developers suggested before that there would be a way for SoPs to become settled states under the right circumstances, so likely the modding community will build based off that.
The reason they said they won't be at launch is because they basically have no gameplay, and are super boring up until you research the right techs. And they're focusing on the entire rest of the game before a very niche playstyle.
It's obvious why Paradox refuse to allow people to play as North American natives. It's a dilemma - either they go for historical accuracy and natives have to sit around and do nothing for 150-200 years until Columbus sails the ocean blue, or they go the alt history route and allow natives to develop metallurgy and writing and old world tech on their own, which obviously would be game-breaking in terms of balance and immersion. Even in EU4, people complained about how boring native tags were to play because of having to wait for European AI to colonize next to you to go anywhere. Even though Europeans could theoretically reach you as quickly as 1460, it realistically took anywhere between 50 to 150 years due to pure RNG on where the AI decides to colonize first. Now, with EU5's start date being so early, you have to wait an extra 100+ years for the historical European settling of America to happen. And in those 100+ years all sorts of things can go wrong in Europe that make colonization happen even later. EU4 Castile and Portugal with their fantastic starts still find ways to mess up and get stuck in infinite bankruptcy cycles before they colonize anything. Or get destroyed by Morocco (which happens surprisingly often)
Etowah mounds are the largest in the American Southeast, was a serious settlement for about 500 years before contact. There are some *magnificent* copper and bronze plate artworks that have been found at the site. If Cahokia is in, the other mound-builders should be in (which, btw, have ancient ties to the Mayans, and may have been resource colonies during the height of the Maya classical period. One of the biggest evidences is the large deposits of Palygorskite (or Maya Blue) clay present in what is now Georgia, but quite scarce in the Yucatan peninsula despite being used for basically all sacrifices and many other art purposes) So yeah, gimme them boiks, they are dope
In all honesty, I'd love to see Ethnogenesis actually take place in this game. We have perfect pre-contact natives that could be ruined and made into the groups we know today in a much better way after people like DeSoto decided to explore the Southeast. Some medium-sized, sedentary native groups just casually spread out would be amazing. Cahokia was also already on the downward trend for reasons still debated so ethnogenesis can exist even more, already have a disaster (forgot what the new system is called) that could affect these new world natives to help break apart the medium groups to the smaller tribes we know and love today.
There should definitely be a decadence mechanic for wealthy and powerful nations. Not necessarily the same as the Ottoman decadence mechanic, but I’m not super familiar with it because I almost exclusively play Anbennar
so far i tried to write this in many topics on forum yet never got any attention from devs. I am hoping that they are ignoring this because they have an implementation that they have not showed yet
13:50 we know there are defensive pacts like in Imperator Rome and those were a pain to deal in many cases, maybe they could add "defensive coalitions" that can be formed only against hegemonies that you have negative opinion with regardless of AS and triggers only when a member of the coalition is attacked by that said hegemony
Re North America... I really recommend Graeber and Wengrow's "The Dawn of Everything" for some perspective on why "settled state" shouldn't be treated as a prerequisite for "having geo-/political agency." It's revisionist and polemical and often goes out on a limb with potential conclusions from archaeological and anthropological days, but I think that's exactly why it's worthwhile: it shifts the paradigm and gets us to stop making unquestioned assumptions. And, I'd argue, among those assumptions would be the idea that indigenous polities would be uninteresting to play in a game like this.
I also don't exactly agree with the food modifier on economic hegemons but if I had to come up with a rationale how it is supposed to work my only theory would be that someone who is good economically is also good with the logistics of supplying and army and the -% food need is an abstraction of their very efficient supply lines?
The food modifer is supposed to represent the logistics, supply lines and ability to fund a larger armies and longer campaigns it's a mechanical representation of your nation is so economically dominant your troops never lack for supplies and you can afford to constantly conduct expensive wars without fear of running out of supplies. What caused the death of Spainish empire. The actual mechanism to get the desired effect feels strange.
Dynamic rgos would be necessary for colonial nations to have even a shadow of a doubt to become economically self sufficient, as north america lacks seriously in many goods. Heck, the only iron i could spot is in the appalachian mountains, which is both silly in terms of availability, but would likely hamstring the nations there. I'd to see the dynamic of the new world deforesting to get soda ash, as that was a huge source of income for the early usa, but then obviously this should change the forest cover and enable different goods.
I do like having a settled kingdom all on its own like that will be a great tutorial for the basics of the game and economy. I wonder if thats part of the reason for the eastern native americans.
Maybe they could have some important tags spawn on event such as the iroquois once someone colonises enough of New England or, also the Apache once texas or Northern mexico starts getting colonised. Possibly also just have a separate start date somewhere later on when something interesting is going on in europe and most North American natives are spawned in order to satisfy the 3 people that play natives religiously.
25:09 Nah, i hope those will emerge dynamically through the game mechanics, not because "well that's how it was irl so we'll rail it all the way in" coz that's BS and eu5 doesnt seem to go into that direction
I really hope there will be changeable goods for some locations. IMHO most parts of the new worlds in the current maps don't seem to be very valuable and desirable to colonize, unless you want a lot of fish. It would definitely add more flavor to discover more mineral sources or give the ability to grow wine in parts of Australia or South Africa for example.
No Iroquois is probably the biggest miss here otherwise I think only focusing on the most 'settled' and centralized tribes is better than what we were stuck with in Eu4.
According to wikipedia the Iroquois League formed around 1450. It might have been formed earlier but there is no proof. I guess we'll never know for sure.
In my opinion there could probably be more tags in North America, but they got a much better treatment than Oceania/Polynesia. They did Polynesia dirty.
I think you have misinterpreted the hegemony requirements. It's not that you have to be 20% stronger than second place, and if you ever go below 20% stronger than the next best candidate, you lose - if it worked that way, it would actually mostly satisfy most of the complaints we had. The way the diary explained it: - for the first hegemon, the only requirement is that you be the highest in your category - even just by a fraction of a percentage point; - then subsequent hegemons can steal the title, but only if they *exceed* the previous hegemon by 20%; - there's no mechanism for losing hegemony without a replacement, in the event that the current hegemon loses their edge over competitors but no one exceeds them by 20%. Obviously, that's a bit less good at capturing the idea of what hegemony should mean. I think you may have just mind-edited it to something that made more sense. The idea that there's no hegemon until someone beats all competitors by at least 20%, and that they lose hegemony if they are no longer dominating competition by that margin, is not in the dev diary; maybe I missed where Johan clarified that that's what he meant but it doesn't seem so.
Hospital can't be spammed, or rather it has a development minimum to build, so sadly you're only protecting the most developed cities, but i guess those are the first targets anyhow. Edit: aaand four minutes in you read the same thing i did, welp, enjoy the the comment mr algorithm.
To be frank, I doubt that many people will end up playing natives anyway. I have 5.5k hours in eu4, and I think I've only ever done it a few times. A few more playable tags might be more historically accurate (I don't know enough to comment), but I suspect that they will be played by few people. It probably won't be a big issue because you can colonise over them, but in eu4 the addition of more native tags a few years ago just made colonising more of a pain.
I don't want playable SoPs, I want unlanded 'chiefdoms' and 'leaderships' tags within SoPs that can move around within the SoP area and can transform into landed tags after getting a certain amount of control. It makes no sense to play a SoP, that implies a hivemind whilst having different chiefdom/leadership tags would not imply a hivemind.
There's a lot of US players who want to start there home state. Make them happy and people won't drop the game early. Even if beta society's cause early achievement exploits.
@benismann If people see the game has a low retention rate, then streamrs get worried and stop making content. We're big fans but the vast majority at launch won't be.
@@PersonOfTheInternet280 counterpoint: natives are THE low retention rate gameplay, at least in eu4. It's ok to hope for it to get better in eu5, but I also highly doubt it will be much better, and you have to suffer through it for 100 more years.
I’m the one who left the comment about Savannah on the forum and I actually work next to the port itself
Honestly the response to community feedback has been pretty stellar so far from Paradox and it’s great to see that literally anyone can have their suggestions heard
Also kinda neat to actually have an impact on game design even if it is something as small as a natural harbor location lol
I will wager that if Paradox does not create a playable SoP system, that within a few months of release the modder community will have created a whole system to make SoPs playable with a path for the player to turn them from SoPs to settled states. I *think* the developers suggested before that there would be a way for SoPs to become settled states under the right circumstances, so likely the modding community will build based off that.
The reason they said they won't be at launch is because they basically have no gameplay, and are super boring up until you research the right techs. And they're focusing on the entire rest of the game before a very niche playstyle.
Don't forget a few months after the modders release it. Paradox will come out with a $15 dlc
because almighty modders will fix everything... 90% of mods are excrement and i never use mods anyways lmao
It's obvious why Paradox refuse to allow people to play as North American natives. It's a dilemma - either they go for historical accuracy and natives have to sit around and do nothing for 150-200 years until Columbus sails the ocean blue, or they go the alt history route and allow natives to develop metallurgy and writing and old world tech on their own, which obviously would be game-breaking in terms of balance and immersion.
Even in EU4, people complained about how boring native tags were to play because of having to wait for European AI to colonize next to you to go anywhere. Even though Europeans could theoretically reach you as quickly as 1460, it realistically took anywhere between 50 to 150 years due to pure RNG on where the AI decides to colonize first.
Now, with EU5's start date being so early, you have to wait an extra 100+ years for the historical European settling of America to happen. And in those 100+ years all sorts of things can go wrong in Europe that make colonization happen even later. EU4 Castile and Portugal with their fantastic starts still find ways to mess up and get stuck in infinite bankruptcy cycles before they colonize anything. Or get destroyed by Morocco (which happens surprisingly often)
Etowah mounds are the largest in the American Southeast, was a serious settlement for about 500 years before contact. There are some *magnificent* copper and bronze plate artworks that have been found at the site. If Cahokia is in, the other mound-builders should be in (which, btw, have ancient ties to the Mayans, and may have been resource colonies during the height of the Maya classical period. One of the biggest evidences is the large deposits of Palygorskite (or Maya Blue) clay present in what is now Georgia, but quite scarce in the Yucatan peninsula despite being used for basically all sacrifices and many other art purposes) So yeah, gimme them boiks, they are dope
In all honesty, I'd love to see Ethnogenesis actually take place in this game. We have perfect pre-contact natives that could be ruined and made into the groups we know today in a much better way after people like DeSoto decided to explore the Southeast. Some medium-sized, sedentary native groups just casually spread out would be amazing. Cahokia was also already on the downward trend for reasons still debated so ethnogenesis can exist even more, already have a disaster (forgot what the new system is called) that could affect these new world natives to help break apart the medium groups to the smaller tribes we know and love today.
There should definitely be a decadence mechanic for wealthy and powerful nations. Not necessarily the same as the Ottoman decadence mechanic, but I’m not super familiar with it because I almost exclusively play Anbennar
so far i tried to write this in many topics on forum yet never got any attention from devs. I am hoping that they are ignoring this because they have an implementation that they have not showed yet
@ I hope so too. It would add to the realism and be good for gameplay
13:50 we know there are defensive pacts like in Imperator Rome and those were a pain to deal in many cases, maybe they could add "defensive coalitions" that can be formed only against hegemonies that you have negative opinion with regardless of AS and triggers only when a member of the coalition is attacked by that said hegemony
Re North America... I really recommend Graeber and Wengrow's "The Dawn of Everything" for some perspective on why "settled state" shouldn't be treated as a prerequisite for "having geo-/political agency." It's revisionist and polemical and often goes out on a limb with potential conclusions from archaeological and anthropological days, but I think that's exactly why it's worthwhile: it shifts the paradigm and gets us to stop making unquestioned assumptions. And, I'd argue, among those assumptions would be the idea that indigenous polities would be uninteresting to play in a game like this.
I also don't exactly agree with the food modifier on economic hegemons but if I had to come up with a rationale how it is supposed to work my only theory would be that someone who is good economically is also good with the logistics of supplying and army and the -% food need is an abstraction of their very efficient supply lines?
The food modifer is supposed to represent the logistics, supply lines and ability to fund a larger armies and longer campaigns it's a mechanical representation of your nation is so economically dominant your troops never lack for supplies and you can afford to constantly conduct expensive wars without fear of running out of supplies. What caused the death of Spainish empire. The actual mechanism to get the desired effect feels strange.
It seems to me that eventually SOPs will just have to be playable
Dynamic rgos would be necessary for colonial nations to have even a shadow of a doubt to become economically self sufficient, as north america lacks seriously in many goods. Heck, the only iron i could spot is in the appalachian mountains, which is both silly in terms of availability, but would likely hamstring the nations there. I'd to see the dynamic of the new world deforesting to get soda ash, as that was a huge source of income for the early usa, but then obviously this should change the forest cover and enable different goods.
I do like having a settled kingdom all on its own like that will be a great tutorial for the basics of the game and economy. I wonder if thats part of the reason for the eastern native americans.
32:15 Huzzah! Savannah shall be the first capital of Georgia yet again! (Age of sail ports go brrrrrr)
Maybe they could have some important tags spawn on event such as the iroquois once someone colonises enough of New England or, also the Apache once texas or Northern mexico starts getting colonised. Possibly also just have a separate start date somewhere later on when something interesting is going on in europe and most North American natives are spawned in order to satisfy the 3 people that play natives religiously.
25:09 Nah, i hope those will emerge dynamically through the game mechanics, not because "well that's how it was irl so we'll rail it all the way in" coz that's BS and eu5 doesnt seem to go into that direction
Hmm hospitals should be able to be built in rural areas.
Didn't they say in original dd that other countries get a cb on hegemonies?
True
I really hope there will be changeable goods for some locations. IMHO most parts of the new worlds in the current maps don't seem to be very valuable and desirable to colonize, unless you want a lot of fish. It would definitely add more flavor to discover more mineral sources or give the ability to grow wine in parts of Australia or South Africa for example.
Eco hegemon = economy up
Economy up = food price down
Food price down = more food for army
Nice video dude!
No Iroquois is probably the biggest miss here otherwise I think only focusing on the most 'settled' and centralized tribes is better than what we were stuck with in Eu4.
According to wikipedia the Iroquois League formed around 1450. It might have been formed earlier but there is no proof. I guess we'll never know for sure.
its like asking for a ottoman empire at the start completely ahistorical
It should form via events
@@Rakhtor Could just have the separate tribes there and you can form it via conquest or event.
In my opinion there could probably be more tags in North America, but they got a much better treatment than Oceania/Polynesia. They did Polynesia dirty.
I think you have misinterpreted the hegemony requirements. It's not that you have to be 20% stronger than second place, and if you ever go below 20% stronger than the next best candidate, you lose - if it worked that way, it would actually mostly satisfy most of the complaints we had. The way the diary explained it:
- for the first hegemon, the only requirement is that you be the highest in your category - even just by a fraction of a percentage point;
- then subsequent hegemons can steal the title, but only if they *exceed* the previous hegemon by 20%;
- there's no mechanism for losing hegemony without a replacement, in the event that the current hegemon loses their edge over competitors but no one exceeds them by 20%.
Obviously, that's a bit less good at capturing the idea of what hegemony should mean.
I think you may have just mind-edited it to something that made more sense. The idea that there's no hegemon until someone beats all competitors by at least 20%, and that they lose hegemony if they are no longer dominating competition by that margin, is not in the dev diary; maybe I missed where Johan clarified that that's what he meant but it doesn't seem so.
Hospital can't be spammed, or rather it has a development minimum to build, so sadly you're only protecting the most developed cities, but i guess those are the first targets anyhow.
Edit: aaand four minutes in you read the same thing i did, welp, enjoy the the comment mr algorithm.
To be frank, I doubt that many people will end up playing natives anyway. I have 5.5k hours in eu4, and I think I've only ever done it a few times. A few more playable tags might be more historically accurate (I don't know enough to comment), but I suspect that they will be played by few people. It probably won't be a big issue because you can colonise over them, but in eu4 the addition of more native tags a few years ago just made colonising more of a pain.
Part of that issue is that natives are just not fun in eu4, and are pretty bare bones
@@SireBab and now the game starts 100 years earlier, which.... probably wont help the boredom issue
@@benismann depending on what options you have as a native, maybe not!
@@SireBab yea hopefully it'll be at least better than in eu4
i dont see why i shouldnt be able to play as the peoples down in florida
I don't want playable SoPs, I want unlanded 'chiefdoms' and 'leaderships' tags within SoPs that can move around within the SoP area and can transform into landed tags after getting a certain amount of control. It makes no sense to play a SoP, that implies a hivemind whilst having different chiefdom/leadership tags would not imply a hivemind.
I quite enjoy that idea. You brought it up in the forums?
They maybe shouldn't be so mobile depending on culture, the mound-builders for instance were settled agriculturalists
I want to watch these videos, but they should be a bit shorter if you can manage it. I can't watch for 30mins, but under 10 is possible.
There's a lot of US players who want to start there home state. Make them happy and people won't drop the game early.
Even if beta society's cause early achievement exploits.
If that's the reason to drop the game - they really shouldn't be buying it. Coz they'll play there once, maybe twice. Now what? They drop it.
@benismann If people see the game has a low retention rate, then streamrs get worried and stop making content. We're big fans but the vast majority at launch won't be.
@@PersonOfTheInternet280 counterpoint: natives are THE low retention rate gameplay, at least in eu4. It's ok to hope for it to get better in eu5, but I also highly doubt it will be much better, and you have to suffer through it for 100 more years.
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