The Illumination Problem - Numberphile

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  • Опубліковано 27 лют 2017
  • Featuring Professor Howard Masur from the University of Chicago. Filmed at the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute (MSRI).
    Part 2 of this interview: • Problems with Periodic...
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    Numberphile is supported by the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute (MSRI): bit.ly/MSRINumberphile
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    Videos by Brady Haran
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  • Наука та технологія

КОМЕНТАРІ • 2 тис.

  • @GrandMaMaYT
    @GrandMaMaYT 7 років тому +8143

    dvd screensaver problem

  • @NoriMori1992
    @NoriMori1992 7 років тому +2413

    "Yes, triangles of course are convex, thank you for that observation."
    I've never heard anyone sound so sincere and so sarcastic at the same time. 😂

    • @jacobguillerey4476
      @jacobguillerey4476 3 роки тому +30

      Welcome to maths xD

    • @davechen4979
      @davechen4979 3 роки тому +67

      7:43 for anyone else wondering 4 years later

    • @glitchb0t595
      @glitchb0t595 3 роки тому +1

      @@davechen4979 thx

    • @unworthy.potato
      @unworthy.potato 3 роки тому +2

      @@davechen4979 why thank you

    • @JonLeung1
      @JonLeung1 3 роки тому +5

      I jumped right to that point in the video randomly right when I read that comment. Crazy!

  • @javierl.8424
    @javierl.8424 7 років тому +5334

    Buy two candles

    • @jasonneu81
      @jasonneu81 6 років тому +318

      Well all the money went to the maths degree, so the mathematicians gotta save on the candles :P

    • @Games_and_Music
      @Games_and_Music 6 років тому +214

      Cut the candles in half

    • @tonelemoan
      @tonelemoan 5 років тому +76

      No, buy fork handles.

    • @Tensho_C
      @Tensho_C 5 років тому +33

      @@Games_and_Music flex tape

    • @HelloKittyFanMan.
      @HelloKittyFanMan. 5 років тому +5

      Buy one period.

  • @EleonMythos
    @EleonMythos 5 років тому +499

    This single point in the dark on a fully illuminated room sounds pretty amazing for a horror movie.

    • @cheeseburgermonkey7104
      @cheeseburgermonkey7104 2 роки тому +1

      evil horror games be like

    • @popkornking
      @popkornking 2 роки тому +34

      Except if you put someone in the room to be horrified they would act as a new scattering suface.

    • @KingKharibda
      @KingKharibda 2 роки тому +12

      @@popkornking Not if they're a ghost!

    • @peterstangl8295
      @peterstangl8295 2 роки тому +1

      Maybe like a Doctor Who episode or something

    • @alvianekka80
      @alvianekka80 2 роки тому

      @@cheeseburgermonkey7104 Alan Wake, where the entities can only manifest in dark place.

  • @TheRXStudios
    @TheRXStudios 7 років тому +352

    I went into Blender 3D and modeled the room with the protruding mushroom shapes. Blender uses actual ray tracing so I knew it would be fairly accurate. Sure enough nowhere that I placed a light seemed to light those sections; neat!

    • @jakistam1000
      @jakistam1000 2 роки тому +20

      What happened when you put it exactly in the middle? What if you put it in one of the areas "behind" the mushrooms?

    • @dang-x3n0t1ct
      @dang-x3n0t1ct 2 роки тому +1

      @@jakistam1000 If you put it behind a mushroom it would only light up half of a room. @TheActionlab as a video on this

    • @rudrodeepchatterjee
      @rudrodeepchatterjee 6 місяців тому

      ​@@jakistam1000if you put it behind the mushrooms, let's see the top left section, then the entire lower half will stay dark. Put it in the geometrical middle point of the shape, and the 4 behind-the-mushroom sections are dark.

  • @endermage77
    @endermage77 5 років тому +2119

    The Illumination Problem
    That's what we call the Minions.

    • @mueezadam8438
      @mueezadam8438 4 роки тому +10

      Endermage77 gottem

    • @h-Films
      @h-Films 4 роки тому +1

      not a problem.

    • @nford4191
      @nford4191 3 роки тому

      Karol Nieciecki stfu

    • @nford4191
      @nford4191 3 роки тому

      Karol Nieciecki oh nvm I didn’t see the read more my bad😂

    • @albabelen5628
      @albabelen5628 2 роки тому

      Hahaha true

  • @parkerlee8071
    @parkerlee8071 4 роки тому +865

    Lasertag strategy guide: Where to stand If your opponent can't move.

  • @nievillis
    @nievillis 5 років тому +1261

    Oh noes. Mobs can spawn there. Light it up immediately!

    • @p4tr1ck18
      @p4tr1ck18 4 роки тому +3

      Think of that in terms of why life on Earth not elsewhere near us

    • @TheGozeraye
      @TheGozeraye 4 роки тому +39

      This would actually explain why sometimes mobs spawn in spots when we think that spot is illuminated. They're spawning on that infinitely small patch of darkness the game just doesn't have the resolution to display.

    • @biroarq
      @biroarq 4 роки тому +1

      Minecraft reference

    • @Somedude48
      @Somedude48 3 роки тому +3

      Ah yes, a fellow man of culture

    • @xyz.ijk.
      @xyz.ijk. 3 роки тому +1

      Prescient, as I am watching this for the first time, and Jan 6, 2021 was only a week ago.

  • @azyfloof
    @azyfloof 7 років тому +4279

    Imagine being the guy that has to lay the carpet in all these rooms?

    • @numberphile
      @numberphile  7 років тому +333

      +Azayles ha ha

    • @azyfloof
      @azyfloof 7 років тому +49

      You must not have watched the video :P
      Give that a go! :D

    • @azyfloof
      @azyfloof 7 років тому +53

      Oh man. I don't even know what to say to that 😂😂
      Thanks for the laugh, that's all I can say 😀

    • @marmalade627
      @marmalade627 6 років тому +79

      It's because of all of the angles and things. carpets usually come in square cuts. A lot of trimming and re-shaping would have to be done if you were laying the carpet down.

    • @markar6275
      @markar6275 6 років тому +16

      the room's shape is irregular. You would have to trim and do a lot more work to make the carpet fit.

  • @karkinissan
    @karkinissan 7 років тому +1745

    Wow. That 9 minutes passed in an instant. This was so interesting.

    • @numberphile
      @numberphile  7 років тому +150

      +Nissan Karki cheers for watching

    • @andreasaa2000
      @andreasaa2000 7 років тому +5

      In the second figure you could have placed the light source in the middle and it would have reached every corner of the figure

    • @halonothing1
      @halonothing1 6 років тому +6

      Got ADD/ADHD? I have and I'm always obsessing about how long I'm able to pay attention to things and just sort of lose myself in the moment while my brain goes on autopilot.

    • @Chauntecleer
      @Chauntecleer 6 років тому +5

      I believe that proves that time is relative.

    • @FishManChannel
      @FishManChannel 6 років тому +2

      and 8 seconds

  • @gafeht
    @gafeht 7 років тому +456

    0:21
    This game is rigged, the holes are smaller than the ball

    • @h-Films
      @h-Films 4 роки тому +3

      XD

    • @oerlikon20mm29
      @oerlikon20mm29 3 роки тому +9

      youre not hitting the ball hard enough then

    • @thebiggestcauldron
      @thebiggestcauldron 2 роки тому

      Convex, thank you for that observation.

    • @MarkusAldawn
      @MarkusAldawn Рік тому

      @@oerlikon20mm29 if brute force isn't working, you're not using enough of it!

  • @dragoncurveenthusiast
    @dragoncurveenthusiast 7 років тому +104

    4:37 I love how the light front gets cut into smaller and smaller pieces as it travels though the room and hits corners.

  • @jazztom86
    @jazztom86 6 років тому +85

    1:25 "that is a funny shaped room." While as billiard table it was perfectly normal? Where does this guy play billiard?

    • @MotorBorg
      @MotorBorg 3 роки тому

      I immediately thought of Lunar Pool for NES.

    • @parthibhayat
      @parthibhayat 2 роки тому

      Amogus

  • @Broockle
    @Broockle 7 років тому +228

    This is actually something I've been day dreaming about for many years xD
    It's fun trying to find how many bounces it takes to get from one point to another in random shapes that you find in the world.

    • @TwistyTieDominoes
      @TwistyTieDominoes 7 років тому +6

      Me too

    • @sabberi
      @sabberi 7 років тому +3

      I've done the same thing for as long as I can remember

    • @heli400
      @heli400 7 років тому +4

      this is what happens with the thoughts in my head...

    • @WTFBOOMDOOM
      @WTFBOOMDOOM 7 років тому +3

      I've also spent countless hours doing that, in both 2D and 3D environments :)

    • @aaronarndt1807
      @aaronarndt1807 7 років тому +7

      I think you might enjoy this: Interactive 2D Light Transport - benedikt-bitterli.me/tantalum/tantalum.html

  • @biranfalk-dotan2448
    @biranfalk-dotan2448 7 років тому +72

    Thank you for shedding light on this problem. I am much more enlightened now. The bright people at Numberphile are adding to the pool of knowledge on UA-cam and it reflects positively on our society.

    • @fahrenheit2101
      @fahrenheit2101 2 роки тому +6

      Nice one.

    • @gtbgabe1478
      @gtbgabe1478 2 роки тому +5

      @@fahrenheit2101 don't ya mean...
      *BRIGHT* one? 😃

    • @isaiahTMP
      @isaiahTMP 2 роки тому +4

      @@gtbgabe1478 your really reflecting the enthusiasm here

  • @Nasho0101
    @Nasho0101 4 роки тому +126

    What if you
    Wanted to sleep in a convex room
    But mathematics said
    " *You can't sleep there are monsters nearby* "

    • @devincetee5335
      @devincetee5335 3 роки тому +1

      Okay, this is something that was funny

    • @carlosmspk
      @carlosmspk 3 роки тому +1

      @@devincetee5335 Okay, this was something that expressed an opinion

  • @xystem4701
    @xystem4701 7 років тому +595

    Wow, that animation must've taken a while

    • @xpew75
      @xpew75 7 років тому +101

      Which probably took a while to write

    • @Utroll
      @Utroll 6 років тому +24

      raytracing appeared in 80's.
      I think in 2008 Intel presented a Quake engine doing real time pathtracing.
      All that 3D.

    • @okktok
      @okktok 6 років тому +5

      xpewster I wrote in 10 minutes in JS

    • @pietandersen6120
      @pietandersen6120 6 років тому +2

      Carlos Jorge Pls send, I could watch these animations all day.

    • @bradster2214
      @bradster2214 6 років тому +5

      they just used a simple piece of code. angle of refraction=angle of incidence. as in the smallest angle from where the light hits to the surface it hit, is the same angle as frum the surface it hits to the light refracts.

  • @z-beeblebrox
    @z-beeblebrox 7 років тому +85

    I would love to see someone actually build a physical demo of this. Does it still work in 3D space, I wonder?

    • @overestimatedforesight
      @overestimatedforesight 2 роки тому +12

      Light bends in real life, air is imperfect and distorts and lenses the light, walls will have imperfections, no mirror perfectly reflects light, so it couldn't be done in the real world.

    • @Solesteam
      @Solesteam 2 роки тому +1

      @@overestimatedforesight Remove the air and the very concept of up and down.

    • @sponsoredmessage201
      @sponsoredmessage201 2 роки тому +5

      @@overestimatedforesight I think the Penrose example would be worth a try, with a strong light source, long exposure, and very very vertical walls. Maybe the distortion and scattering aren't so bad that you completely illuminate those squares, maybe you even see the boundary, and that would be cool for teaching. But it's a question of whether this can really demonstrate the math; if the image converges on the expectation for 1 -- 100 reflections, what's to say it doesn't all get ruined at reflection 101?

    • @fly7188
      @fly7188 2 роки тому

      Global Illumination Exists so no

    • @word6344
      @word6344 Рік тому +1

      ​@@Solesteam so build it in space!

  • @crashpodROCK
    @crashpodROCK 7 років тому +8

    I just want to say that the academic world could certainly do with a few more great teachers like this guy. It's rare to see someone who is not only friendly, down to earth and approachable, but who seems genuinely excited by mathematics and gives the impression of simply enjoying the discussion and imparting wisdom onto students. Well done sir, you rock.

    • @eavyeavy2864
      @eavyeavy2864 2 роки тому

      Nice but people saying genuine isnt.

  • @teroblepuns
    @teroblepuns 6 років тому +21

    I keep doing these random reflection games in my head when I'm sitting in a waiting room and look at the walls, wondering how a laserbeam could bounce around them.

  • @Dixavd
    @Dixavd 7 років тому +725

    I know a lot of video games (especially light engines) use this sector of mathematics for both rendering light maps and for determining vision cones for AI, but I wonder if their research into improving the fidelity of games has ever returned otherwise unknown solutions to mathematics.

    • @vladkostin7557
      @vladkostin7557 7 років тому +232

      I doubt it. Usually, game math is pretty straightforward. The algorithms are what's being invented. Mathematicians go to great lengths to create problems, and game developers to avoid them. Game math uses so many shortcuts and approximations.

    • @99sproth
      @99sproth 7 років тому +85

      This has happened quite a lot in the last few decades. Many big studios have research departments and there are many researchers in academia working in graphics and rendering and finding novel solutions to problems. Often they are not ground breaking discoveries, but rather tiny optimisations, unnoticed quirks/symmetries, and new applications. One big breakthrough that is is likely to come from industry is a 3d solution Navier-Stokes (used for fluid simulations) as that gets a lot of attention.

    • @jpedrosc98
      @jpedrosc98 7 років тому +6

      Simon Roth do you have references? i'm curious :)

    • @bcn1gh7h4wk
      @bcn1gh7h4wk 7 років тому +37

      for game engines, the math for this is pretty straightforward, as the guy explains.
      what they do is, they usually start off with that theory and strip it down to what the engine can handle.
      doesn't matter how powerful the processor is, it just won't be able to calculate every single reflection needed to achieve realistic graphics, in real time.
      if you bake the lighting and shift the load over to model processing, it works, but not in complete real time.
      if anything, it's maths that's always improving the games a little bit, but it will never be the other way around, because the processors just can't handle the amount of calculations.

    • @aaaab384
      @aaaab384 7 років тому +8

      +Dixavd, _"I know a lot of video games (especially light engines) use this sector of mathematics for both rendering light maps and for determining vision cones for AI"_
      What?!? No...

  • @wingchunmac
    @wingchunmac 7 років тому +1074

    Ronnie O'Sullivan would solve this, no problem.

    • @edancoll3250
      @edancoll3250 7 років тому +105

      Ronnie can put spin on photons.

    • @XxGamerCouncilxX
      @XxGamerCouncilxX 7 років тому +3

      paul thomas Trump is better

    • @paulerate
      @paulerate 7 років тому +1

      hheheheHEehheHEHEehehEHEH
      go to truThconTesTCom< REaD THe pREseNt

    • @aaaab384
      @aaaab384 7 років тому +7

      Solve what??

    • @sportsgamingcubing1860
      @sportsgamingcubing1860 7 років тому +5

      He would get the canon shot as well 😉

  • @bowlinglegend95
    @bowlinglegend95 6 років тому +18

    this video is very interesting to me. i’ve been doing this in my head for my entire life without knowing this was a real thing. i constantly do this with any shape and even faces i see. sometimes in math class i will draw a shape and bounce a line within it, circling where ever the line does not touch. great video!

  • @kkn_d7194
    @kkn_d7194 6 років тому +6

    love the background voice when its ask questions.... makes the video feels more like watching in live or in classroom

  • @lilball8956
    @lilball8956 7 років тому +519

    I thought that said the illuminati problem

  • @911gpd
    @911gpd 7 років тому +834

    I used to stare at the old Windows 98 screen saver which was bouncing around on the edges of the screen.
    I'm not the only one, right ?

    • @fossilfighters101
      @fossilfighters101 7 років тому +5

      +
      No, you are not.

    • @MrMutebe
      @MrMutebe 7 років тому +14

      There's a video of it bouncing in the corner on youtube, search for it.

    • @yoram9692
      @yoram9692 7 років тому +7

      DVD players too

    • @snoopypingas5426
      @snoopypingas5426 7 років тому +5

      911gp Still to this day I haven't found better things to do.

    • @expiredlamb2000
      @expiredlamb2000 7 років тому +1

      i did too, but then i changed OS

  • @viceliag3916
    @viceliag3916 4 роки тому +17

    Popped up in my newsfeed today that someone solved this thing (I think, at least, they called it the Magic Wand Theorem but described it in this way) and I immediately remembered this video.

    • @mr.anonymous1200
      @mr.anonymous1200 4 роки тому +1

      Hy,, Same here. After reading the news of erik , I came here

  • @raffergo
    @raffergo 7 років тому +1

    Numberphile is one of my favorites UA-cam channels. It is certainly the one I watch everyday. Amazing

  • @jaro3839
    @jaro3839 7 років тому +1697

    anyone else see this and read "The Illuminati Problem"?
    cause i didnt, i can read

  • @benmanhaha
    @benmanhaha 7 років тому +3

    Brady, you have a knack for asking the perfect questions during the interview. Bravo.

  • @olivenicko2698
    @olivenicko2698 6 років тому +58

    I thought the DVD Logo hitting the corner of the TV screen was cool

    • @nickparkyn3561
      @nickparkyn3561 3 роки тому +1

      - OlivenickO -2 and it is. This is just cooler

  • @happynappy100
    @happynappy100 7 років тому +60

    this was really illuminating

  • @blakkwaltz
    @blakkwaltz 7 років тому +73

    The reason why realistic graphics are nearly impossible.

    • @Bunny99s
      @Bunny99s 7 років тому +15

      To put is a bit more general "one" reason ^^. There are so many others.

    • @OrangeC7
      @OrangeC7 7 років тому

      William Kappler _But_ gold is an almost perfect infrared reflector. I don't think you can get any closer than that. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    • @OrangeC7
      @OrangeC7 7 років тому

      _yess i got approval_ ahem - Why thank you for the wonderful... idea. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    • @serhat757
      @serhat757 7 років тому +7

      Diffraction occurs even with perfect reflectors. So, even if you have perfect mirrors that can reflect an incoming ray of light with the same angle as the incidence angle (without distorting the incident light in any way), the light still diffracts as it moves in free space. This has to do with the fact that you cannot have perfect light rays (i.e. electromagnetic plane waves) in confined space, no matter how large the space is. Therefore, in reality (or quasi-reality) with perfect mirrors, any room would still be lit at every point, even though the intensity of light would differ from point to point. Imperfect mirrors, of course, amplify this effect.

    • @TheRemixDenuo
      @TheRemixDenuo 7 років тому +2

      Wrong.

  • @Zejgar
    @Zejgar 7 років тому +188

    0:30
    Aren't reflection angles measured between the ray and the normal to the surface, not between the ray and the surface itself?
    I know that in this case it doesn't matter, though I'm still curious.

    • @bow3i
      @bow3i 7 років тому +14

      I guess it was done to simplify the diagrams and explanations

    • @sajrra
      @sajrra 7 років тому +4

      Yes, as far as I know you are right. But in this case it did not matter, since it was only an example and it wasn't any complicated bend surface.

    • @FyneappleJuice
      @FyneappleJuice 7 років тому +21

      It is measured from the normal. The thing that was measured in the video is called the glancing angle.
      Maybe he did it because you needn't draw the normal and hence complicate the drawing with un-necci normals..

    • @mousev1093
      @mousev1093 7 років тому +17

      Depends on the context. For instance, in scattering problems (specifically bragg scattering) they define their angles from parallel. It's just a nomenclature and an arbitrary choice. As long as you are consistent throughout the definitions going forward.

    • @furrane
      @furrane 7 років тому +6

      We usually use the angle to the normal in formulas. But the angle to the normal n and the angle to the surface s are obviously linked with 90 = n + s (in degrees) or pi/2 = n + s (in radians). From there it is easy to understand if n=n' then s=s' (for non oriented angles.)

  • @cedarsapling
    @cedarsapling 7 років тому +7

    The digital effects in this video are awesome! Keep it up.

  • @BrutalxTruth
    @BrutalxTruth 7 років тому +18

    07:24 Answer: When you ask a polygon how it's feeling and it says "circular".

  • @KasabianFan44
    @KasabianFan44 7 років тому +147

    How do you prove that Tokarsky's polygon has this dark point? Is there a simple proof for it?

    • @TheMoreGreen
      @TheMoreGreen 7 років тому +56

      I think the part, that was not explained in this video is the formula that is used to test this theory. Like how he said any rational polygon only has these points, but never any areas of darkness.
      Considering the video without in-depth details is already 9 minutes long, it might have just been a little too much, to explain all the really complicated stuff behind it, since the reason for the video was, to just get the gist of it.

    • @pendulumL3
      @pendulumL3 7 років тому +8

      Here's an example btw
      hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00800526v2

    • @pendulumL3
      @pendulumL3 7 років тому +5

      Nice! Too bad it doesn't seem to be available for free

    • @timhaines3877
      @timhaines3877 7 років тому +3

      Ah, sorry. I'm on a university campus, so I have access to all JSTOR articles. Is there at least a preview available for the public?

    • @mayurdave8154
      @mayurdave8154 7 років тому +14

      *cough cough* arxiv *cough cough*

  • @LifeLikeSage
    @LifeLikeSage 7 років тому +31

    Infinitesimal point of darkness?!
    I CAN'T HIDE IN THAT!

    • @jemrossi
      @jemrossi 4 роки тому

      Need to skill that sneak

  • @DovidStern
    @DovidStern 4 роки тому

    I love this channel so much. One of the only channels I'll watch at normal speed.

  • @sander_bouwhuis
    @sander_bouwhuis 4 роки тому

    I'm absolutely astonished by the fact that the unreachable point is somewhere in the middle rather than some 'hidden' corner. Amazing work!

  • @shedexqwerasd1299
    @shedexqwerasd1299 7 років тому +135

    I cant stop staring at his chest hairs

    • @DylansLappalterCopium
      @DylansLappalterCopium 4 роки тому +10

      Once you've seen it...

    • @RedFox-dj7di
      @RedFox-dj7di 4 роки тому +3

      @@DylansLappalterCopium
      Lol that happened to me when i read that comment

  • @zasharan2
    @zasharan2 4 роки тому +11

    Imagine having a room like this and simply by moving you put someone else in the dark

  • @RavenLuni
    @RavenLuni 7 років тому +2

    Interesting - touched on this stuff years ago when I tried my hand at acoustic modelling. I'll have to revisit that project

    • @j.vonhogen9650
      @j.vonhogen9650 3 роки тому

      Imagine being sued by the owner of a concert hall that you designed as an architect, because you forgot to watch this video and created 'blind spots' in the audience. I think I would go hide in a Penrose mushroom if it happened to me!

  • @Evilhippie64
    @Evilhippie64 4 роки тому +1

    I just love, that just as he says "they are perminately dark" at 4:00, the light actually denies that very statement, by going to the top left square after it had been in the lower section. Sweet :)

  • @ronitmandal7301
    @ronitmandal7301 7 років тому +224

    1 dislike is from the billiard players

    • @ouwkyuha
      @ouwkyuha 7 років тому +21

      Ronit Mandal use curving technique, it solves the problem :v

    • @robertosmoet654
      @robertosmoet654 6 років тому +2

      I think the dislikes are from people who think this is clickbait.

    • @Z3R0Steam
      @Z3R0Steam 6 років тому +1

      Hi where I'm from I call it Pool :)

    • @tigerchills2079
      @tigerchills2079 6 років тому

      ..then you don't know about the tables without pockets, hu? ;)

  • @ninefive8930
    @ninefive8930 7 років тому +243

    in a numberphile comment section are you supposed to write "first" or "1st"?

  • @alexdacat7052
    @alexdacat7052 2 роки тому +2

    Thanks, I’ll remember this while trying to light up my rooms in Minecraf

  • @graemecarragher6447
    @graemecarragher6447 5 років тому

    Really shines a light on the problem

  • @Kram1032
    @Kram1032 7 років тому +32

    If you add a condition that light dims exponentially with travel distance, surely you'd get a smooth distribution where you could see points close by an entirely unilluminated point already be pretty dark, right?

    • @John-lw7bz
      @John-lw7bz 7 років тому +3

      yeah I suppose if you're traveling in a medium it would dim and also every time it bounces. you'd see more of the wave like properties of light too and if you didn't restrict it to a 2d plane I think it would be even more interesting.

    • @gralha_
      @gralha_ 7 років тому +10

      Not always. In the example given in the video, light travels in a straight line to the point right next to the illuminated one. So in this example there would be a sharp step in illumination

    • @Kram1032
      @Kram1032 7 років тому +4

      I guess "smooth" isn't right, yeah. There will be steps. - Interestingly, that single-point-dark figure must be one of those cases where it matters whether you use an open or a closed set: If you include the boundary of the table in the table (the table is a closet set), it looks like there actually _should_ be a straight line to the dark point in question, by definition lighting it. If the border is NOT part of the area (it's open), then there is a stretch that _just barely_ occludes the point.
      At least it looks like that must be the case.

    • @OrangeC7
      @OrangeC7 7 років тому

      I love closet sets. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    • @entropyzero5588
      @entropyzero5588 7 років тому +2

      +Kram1032 It's basically a union lines. Lines in 2d space are closed. But as we are taking the union of _infinitely many_ closed sets, we can't really predict, what the outcome is using just this basic information - it could be open, closed, both or neither and just so happens to be open within the room in the example (conversely, the set of dark spots is an intersection of infinitely many open sets that just so happens to be closed).

  • @rehpotsirhic
    @rehpotsirhic 4 роки тому +19

    Someone should design a difficult mini golf course using these polygons

    • @jankisi
      @jankisi 3 роки тому

      Someone should biuld an impossible mini golf course like in 4:40

    • @julianrosenfeld7177
      @julianrosenfeld7177 3 роки тому +2

      Hahaha that’s a great idea but I suppose it could only prevent hole in ones

    • @imabird6516
      @imabird6516 3 роки тому

      @@julianrosenfeld7177 you can ask the dude to score 4 goals then :)

  • @skaterfugater
    @skaterfugater 7 років тому +1

    even the camera man is very sharp minded and on point with his comments.
    this video was very cool.

  • @1.4142
    @1.4142 3 роки тому +1

    This is truly enlightening.

  • @bobthegreatiii
    @bobthegreatiii 7 років тому +50

    Hmm, I wonder if this could have cryptographic applications with dark spots as public keys

  • @sutarorem8297
    @sutarorem8297 4 роки тому +6

    the best recommendation i got in youtube.

  • @fzigunov
    @fzigunov 7 років тому +3

    What an animation! Great job!

  • @Superb17C
    @Superb17C 2 роки тому

    This video was very illuminating.

  • @erickleinwolterink3524
    @erickleinwolterink3524 7 років тому +8

    You mention Roger Penrose in past-tense in this video, as near as I can tell he is still kicking

    • @peternicholsonu6090
      @peternicholsonu6090 3 роки тому

      No one has seen him....must be on “that spot”

    • @j.vonhogen9650
      @j.vonhogen9650 3 роки тому

      He's in that rare spot where they keep the Nobel prize medals.

  • @centraldoxadrez
    @centraldoxadrez 7 років тому +188

    This counts just for two dimensions problems, right?

    • @jasonneu81
      @jasonneu81 6 років тому +51

      Yes, only two dimensional rooms are considered here, there are similar problems in 3d space but we won't really get much out of those until we "solve" the 2d version shown here.

    • @Obsidian-Nebula
      @Obsidian-Nebula 6 років тому +6

      One dimensional would be convex at least

    • @theshuman100
      @theshuman100 6 років тому +5

      Obsidian Nebula one dimentional rooms are convex by definition

    • @liamswick9622
      @liamswick9622 6 років тому +3

      no if you rotate a room that works and make it curved like it would work the same think about it any 2d slice would behave exactly like the room

    • @ceejayrob
      @ceejayrob 6 років тому +2

      I think this problem in 3 dimesions would become far more complex, and would require the use of solid angles to measure the vectors.

  • @leoq4498
    @leoq4498 2 роки тому

    Imagine the applications for this. Mindblowing.

  • @lukor-tech
    @lukor-tech 6 років тому

    Very nice and easy-to watch video.

  • @dedvzer
    @dedvzer 7 років тому +389

    So.. it's basically tower defense

    • @hansflaman7428
      @hansflaman7428 7 років тому +46

      dedvzer no, tower defense is outside the figure. This is inside.

    • @slayerphoenix6307
      @slayerphoenix6307 7 років тому +26

      Depends what tower defense you are playing

    • @DarkMoonDroid
      @DarkMoonDroid 5 років тому

      And the F-117.

  • @sirduckoufthenorth
    @sirduckoufthenorth 5 років тому +3

    *_Triangles are convex, thank you for making that observation_*

  • @LimitedWard
    @LimitedWard 7 років тому

    Top notch visuals in this video!

  • @sujitmohanty1
    @sujitmohanty1 5 років тому

    This is so interesting ...probably need a second part ....

  • @marcolatn
    @marcolatn 7 років тому +188

    can we now talk about the overly hairy chest problem?

    • @MrSamulai
      @MrSamulai 7 років тому +4

      That can be a problem?

    • @morscoronam3779
      @morscoronam3779 7 років тому +6

      I looked... It cannot be unseen...
      Why have you done this to me?

    • @pezpeculiar9557
      @pezpeculiar9557 5 років тому

      You notice too much

    • @brokenwave6125
      @brokenwave6125 5 років тому

      1. Why do you care about another man's chest hair?
      2. He was born that way...get over it.

    • @kole1678
      @kole1678 5 років тому +5

      @@brokenwave6125 How can you be born with a jungle on your chest?

  • @davecrupel2817
    @davecrupel2817 7 років тому +2

    6:00 i can see he finds some humor in it. lol

  • @nikolayrayanov2895
    @nikolayrayanov2895 4 роки тому +1

    I never knew this was a field in Mathematics but boy I've spent countless hours doing what this guy is doing on a paper and even just by looking at strange polygons.

  • @kps2642
    @kps2642 7 років тому

    Mind blowing stuff sir

  • @landonduffey2205
    @landonduffey2205 7 років тому +104

    But how does this make me better at pool?

    • @RedGallardo
      @RedGallardo 7 років тому +28

      You now know any ball can travel to any position on the table so if you didn't get there you just didn't reflect it enough times.

    • @ScientistCat
      @ScientistCat 7 років тому +6

      It works up to a limit, because while light can (in principle) bounce off infinitely from one mirror to another, a pool ball will slow and eventually stop.

    • @zinqtable1092
      @zinqtable1092 7 років тому

      Physics

    • @greenmumm
      @greenmumm 7 років тому

      But you should be able to hit it hard enough in most cases.

    • @manojkr9198
      @manojkr9198 6 років тому

      and a billiard ball can het stuck in a corner between the angle

  • @hockey161616
    @hockey161616 7 років тому +43

    But why dont they reflect when they hit a corner?

    • @Naijiri.
      @Naijiri. 7 років тому +2

      I also wondered about this

    • @PowCrashBang
      @PowCrashBang 7 років тому +43

      Because you wouldn't be able to decide on an angle of incidence. A corner is a single point, not a line like the walls, and an angle between a line and point makes no sense.

    • @extremelysketchy4095
      @extremelysketchy4095 7 років тому +16

      PowCrashBang Why doesn't it just bounce straight back, since the line and the point collide head on?

    • @RangeWilson
      @RangeWilson 7 років тому +87

      If it bounced straight back it would just retrace its path anyway so it wouldn't illuminate anything new and can safely be ignored.

    • @hockey161616
      @hockey161616 7 років тому +26

      Range Wilson but once it gets back to the origin, it would start a new path!

  • @JoshWalker.
    @JoshWalker. 3 роки тому +1

    No candle can light up a room like this guy can

  • @chtechindustries4174
    @chtechindustries4174 2 роки тому

    So, they are illuminating the illumination problem! Great!

  • @dukejaywalker5858
    @dukejaywalker5858 7 років тому +12

    Why hasn't anyone made a real life version of this room!? I would pay to stand in that circle of darkness....

    • @josiasblanco378
      @josiasblanco378 3 роки тому

      It doesn't work that way, is just a theoretical spot, so there is not a tiny part of the room that is in dark (7:03)

    • @LordDoucheBags
      @LordDoucheBags 3 роки тому +1

      @@josiasblanco378 you can stand in the mushroom area

    • @JacobTheSunPreacher
      @JacobTheSunPreacher 3 роки тому

      @@LordDoucheBags still impossible in the real world, only in theorical. since most materials do not reflex light perfectly, the mushroom area would be illuminated in a real experiment

    • @jaxxinator5999
      @jaxxinator5999 3 роки тому +1

      @@JacobTheSunPreacher I think the mushroom area would be noticeably darker it just wouldn't be perfectly dark for obviously reasons. Still, I would be curious to see this effect working in real life.

  • @andersbackman3977
    @andersbackman3977 7 років тому +3

    As a sidenote: The mathematician to first come up with completely dark areas, Roger Penrose, is still alive and working, the past tense mention of him may have you believe he has passed away.

    • @brokenwave6125
      @brokenwave6125 5 років тому

      He said he "is" a mathematician and physicist.
      The only past tense used is referring to his work on illumination from the past...

  • @Soundole
    @Soundole 7 років тому

    Really cool animations for this!

  • @anthonyfaulder8689
    @anthonyfaulder8689 7 років тому

    Had my Linear Algebra Lecture with Tokarsky earlier today :)

  • @HoxTop
    @HoxTop 7 років тому +10

    Does this work in radians? Wondering because a rational number in degrees is irrational in radians.

    • @morscoronam3779
      @morscoronam3779 7 років тому +3

      HoxTop
      He mentioned his notation:
      q/p * 180°
      (or whichever letters he used) to describe the angle. As I understood it, the fraction out front is what decides rational vs irrational. Radians vs degrees shouldn't matter, 180° would just be replaced by π radians.

    • @HoxTop
      @HoxTop 7 років тому

      +Mors Cornam But π is irrational, 3.141.... So my question was whether it works with p/q radians (without the π multiplication)

    • @morscoronam3779
      @morscoronam3779 7 років тому +2

      In the video, the constant in front is what matters when defining an angle as rational or irrational.
      If the fraction is rational, the angle is rational.
      If the fraction is irrational, the angle is irrational.
      Units are just a matter of preference (degrees, radians, revolutions/turns) and with proper conversion factors they mean the same thing. The formula was separating units out to emphasize the fraction as the defining feature.

    • @HoxTop
      @HoxTop 7 років тому

      So, it has to be p/q * π radians? You are sure it won't work with p/q radians?

    • @morscoronam3779
      @morscoronam3779 7 років тому +3

      OH...That makes sense now.
      Yes, it needs to be p/q * π and the fraction p/q decides rational vs irrational.
      I think neat (rational) fractions of a half-turn (180°, π radians) was the convention the problem was built around.
      Also, I'm not 100% sure. But I'd put my confidence level above 90%.

  • @vincenthan5349
    @vincenthan5349 7 років тому +25

    If my physics teacher watch this guy drawing the angle of incidence from the surface but not the normal line, he would cry..

    • @slothFPV
      @slothFPV 6 років тому

      Vincent Han i was thinking the same

  • @jaravind5050
    @jaravind5050 7 років тому

    Reminds me of the billiards video game with the intense music. Lunar pool.

  • @MatthewHill
    @MatthewHill 4 роки тому

    Fascinating!

  • @keterpatrol7527
    @keterpatrol7527 5 років тому +4

    2:34
    also called 'boring'

  • @NixinovaMC
    @NixinovaMC 7 років тому +13

    I would like to have a room built in one of these shapes and stand in one of the 'dark' areas.

    • @jakoblenke3012
      @jakoblenke3012 6 років тому

      Nixinova Im imagining this right now :D

    • @tonelemoan
      @tonelemoan 5 років тому +2

      Wouldn't work. In the real world light is scattered and we have two eyes both of which are bigger than photons.

    • @aurorasodre2375
      @aurorasodre2375 4 роки тому

      @@tonelemoan The Ellipse with two mushrooms would, though

  • @DaVillain06
    @DaVillain06 4 роки тому

    not sure how I ended up watching this, but I saw the whole video. So interesting, very smart guy.

  • @thomaskaldahl196
    @thomaskaldahl196 4 роки тому

    thanks to numberphile for shedding light onto this maths problem

  • @UMosNyu
    @UMosNyu 7 років тому +24

    Now my question is: What does the person, that is in the dark, see in the mirror?

    • @dannyundos8927
      @dannyundos8927 7 років тому +39

      That person can't even see the mirrors.

    • @dariolehm493
      @dariolehm493 7 років тому +5

      NDos Dannyu there can't be a person in that "room" because it is 2 dimensional
      if it was 3 dimensional there would be no dark spot I believe

    • @UMosNyu
      @UMosNyu 7 років тому +3

      @NDos: Welp.. Makes sense.
      @Dario: I think there would be a line of dark spots.
      My reasoning is for a "simple" 3D room with the 2D polynom as a crosssection everywhere (meaning a parallel floor and cieling):
      If you plave the candle somewhere on the z-axis, the light would start traveling with vecotr in the z-direction too. However if we now check our room from the top, we have the 2D shape again. Light with a vecotr in z-direction is just a slower version of the light, that is traveling without a z-component.
      Meaning that the solution of the 3D room is the same as the 2D one, when viewed from the top, leaving a line of dark spots.
      However: This would completly change, once you introduce uneven floors or cielings...

    • @dariolehm493
      @dariolehm493 7 років тому

      UMos but in a 3 dimensional room there is not only walls reflecting light but also the floor and ceiling right ? That additional reflection should be enough to light every spot in the room

    • @SaCeuran
      @SaCeuran 7 років тому

      Mirrors work by reflecting back light that has bounced off an object back at it. Since no light is present to bouncer off the person, there's nothing to bounce off the mirror back to their eyes. Therefore, they see nothing.

  • @mdog576
    @mdog576 7 років тому +4

    What are the possible applications of this by the way?

    • @jotabeas22
      @jotabeas22 7 років тому +13

      BourgealaCourge Vector graphics and lightmaps for computer-created environments, ranging from games to movies.

    • @Joe_VanCleave
      @Joe_VanCleave 7 років тому +1

      Didn't he say Penrose did his work in 1955 or thereabouts? One possible application, given the timing of the mid-1950s, is thermonuclear weapons. Radiation (soft X-rays, supposedly) from an exploding fission device needs to uniformly "illuminate" the fusion secondary and implode it via radiation ablation. How to get the radiation from the primary to uniformly illuminate the secondary, using some form of radiant mirrors, is very much this kind of a problem.

    • @pendulumL3
      @pendulumL3 7 років тому

      Geometry of a microwave oven's walls for example

    • @Naijiri.
      @Naijiri. 7 років тому +3

      pool tricks

    • @endrankluvsda4loko172
      @endrankluvsda4loko172 7 років тому +13

      making cool youtube videos

  • @carlosmspk
    @carlosmspk 3 роки тому

    I find it wild that mathematicians dedicate their lives to so many problems that don't have any clear application. Respect!

    • @sander_bouwhuis
      @sander_bouwhuis 3 роки тому +1

      Actually, fundamental science is incredibly important. Many things that at first don't seem to have any practical application can later proof to be very important for real world problems.

  • @NLind
    @NLind 3 роки тому

    Seeing those shapes imagined as a pool table reminds me of that old game Lunar Pool for the NES.

  • @christianandreas6299
    @christianandreas6299 7 років тому +4

    "So triangles of course are convex. Thank you for that observation." :-D made my day

  • @shittyhaircut
    @shittyhaircut 7 років тому +31

    Episode 4: The Dark Room

    • @robbertr1558
      @robbertr1558 7 років тому +1

      h4ppyh4rdc0ril4 that episode was sick

    • @TheOnlyBane
      @TheOnlyBane 7 років тому +1

      Robbert R the whole game was.

    • @wiertara1337
      @wiertara1337 7 років тому +5

      bay over bae

  • @Luke-qs1lv
    @Luke-qs1lv 6 років тому

    Great video-such an engaging dude.

  • @patrickrebsch4359
    @patrickrebsch4359 7 років тому

    This was very interesting, but now I'm wondering about the illumination problem in three dimensions. I would imagine that it would be significantly more difficult to find or construct an example of dark patches/points. But maybe not? If so, that would be a nice follow up video!

  • @nox4000
    @nox4000 7 років тому +10

    Luckily we've diffraction

    • @entropyzero5588
      @entropyzero5588 7 років тому +5

      And light sources with non-zero width ;)

    • @tonelemoan
      @tonelemoan 5 років тому +1

      And erm, two non-zero width eyes.

  • @baekBlackbeen
    @baekBlackbeen 7 років тому +3

    Wow

  • @woodlandxwarrior2657
    @woodlandxwarrior2657 4 роки тому

    I want to start of by saying I really enjoyed this video. It really put a new perspective into the way light works and how we should attempt to emulate it; especially when it comes to rendering in places such as video games or for scientific research through virtual purposes.
    Something flawed that I have noticed in this video and I am not 100% sure how to explain it so please stand by and try to understand where I am coming from. I think you are looking at the issue as if it's as simple as billiard angles; IE large object hitting a flat surface. Whereas you should be looking at it as small rays hitting spaces between large objects; rather individual particles hitting individual spaces in, around, and between individual atoms. No surface is perfectly flat with no imperfections. All colors of light on spectrum of light bounce at different rates, different surfaces produce different effects on the light that touches it. To assume that the light will bounce at the same angle that it hit at from a large scale point is missing out on the fact that those little gaps greatly change the direction of those rays. We are also assuming that light cannot penetrate a solid object when in fact different forms of light penetrate different objects as well.
    My proposal, start with different colors of light on the same rendering style you've provided and once you've gotten to a point where 3 different colors, or spectrum of light observe and reflect different move onto something else. Move onto making slight imperfections, different materials behave differently when interacting, more realistic by proper gaping between atoms, etc, etc. I think this will have a profound difference. Whether or not this will help is a whole different subject.

  • @daric_
    @daric_ 6 років тому

    Professor Masur's chesthair game is also on point.

  • @kroyboy
    @kroyboy 7 років тому +35

    I know it's the same thing, but shouldn't angles of incidence and reflection be taken from the normal to the surface?

    • @odioaleman
      @odioaleman 7 років тому +7

      Is only the same in straight surface if you get a curve surface you need to use the normal

    • @Bunny99s
      @Bunny99s 7 років тому +14

      You don't need to use the normal, the tangent works the same ^^ and that's what he actually used. Of course on a flat surface the tangent is completely parallel / identical to the surface. But on a curved surface the tangent would just hit the surface in a single point.
      It's actually pretty hard to determine the normal on a curved surface as it just sticks out in the wild. Usually the tangent can be determined easier.

    • @fatsquirrel75
      @fatsquirrel75 7 років тому +6

      How many polygons with curved surfaces do you know?

    • @Bunny99s
      @Bunny99s 7 років тому +8

      Who said that we only talk about polygons? ^^ Actually Penrose used an ellipse. Also polygons in elementary geometry are usually described as a "figure that is bounded by a finite chain of straight line segments". However a more general definition of polygon can also use curves / arcs to connect a finite amount of corners.

    • @2Cerealbox
      @2Cerealbox 7 років тому +1

      Not if it's "the same thing."

  • @TempaValki
    @TempaValki 7 років тому +15

    I am actually in a class taught by Tokarsky right now

  • @Dubirakos
    @Dubirakos 7 років тому +1

    I would love to see a video about doubling the volume of a cube!

  • @bradenstuart8799
    @bradenstuart8799 3 роки тому

    I love how the one holding the camera always asks questions he knows the answers to just for the viewer. I mean I think he knows all the answers.