Not the normal video today! I apologise for this as I am away this week, next week we will be resuming with my WCML series! A huge thank you to those who have given me permission to use their clips for this video; www.youtube.com/@markappleby3282 www.youtube.com/@NapierNimbus www.youtube.com/@Tonysrailvideos www.youtube.com/@THAMESLINK319 www.youtube.com/@Caleb9C1 www.youtube.com/@RoyTheMouth www.youtube.com/@Roo63 www.youtube.com/@LinesideSouthEast www.youtube.com/@thetflthree Hugh Hillier: (Mis-spelled in the video!) www.youtube.com/@RoscoTrain107 Thanks to my First Class, Business Zone & Standard class members! A special mention goes to my new members who joined after I uploaded this video: Callum Martyn Bell (First Class) Anthony James Moore: (Business Zone) Dave CDF: (Standard Class) Dennis Trident Enthusiast: (Standard Class) Emi's Transport Shorts (Standard Class) Honarata (Standard class) legocountyfan: (Standard Class) Lucas McGowan: (Standard Class) Matt Dye: (Standard Class) pcgamermike: (Standard Class)
The fact that all together, a video on solely the ECML is an hour is a testament to how much a disaster this franchise's history has been especially considering the WCML has had only two, one for 22 years. Also GNER's livery is the best out of the 5 operators, no questions asked.
What Railtrack did during it's tenure is at best unforgivable and at worst Murder. Case in point Ladbroke Grove in 1999 where at least 31 people lost their lives as a result of Railtrack failing to address a certain signal that was the subject of numerous SPAD Incidents couple with driver's concerns relating to said signal.
As someone originally from London but at uni in Leeds from 2011 till 2014 - East Coast were fantastic. Evem if I sometimes opted for the East Midland services to be sure of getting an HST.
I wasn't alive at the time, but the more I learn about Railtrack the more I get angry. I have no idea how that didn't turn everybody off of railway privatisation all together. Good the Government is making moves now, but shouldn't have taken so long.
A very useful film to watch. The one important aspect omitted is that 'Virgin Trains East Coast' (VTEC) was not in ownership Virgin. It was a Stagecoach / Virgin joint venture in which Statecoach had a 90% share and Virgin Group only 10%. Virgin were brought in be the 'brand' and to conceal Stagecoach's dominant control. Stagecoach as a brand was always damaged because of its 'bus bandit' beginnings andit was (and is) not a 'quality' brand in any way. Is control was hidden by the use of the Virgin brand (though not to the many users who knew it was really a Stagecoach franchise).. So VTEC was not at all like Virgin Trains' WCML service. In the end Stagecoach took the large losses and Virgin lost little. The commentary does refer near the end of its 'VTEC' segment of the film to Stagecoach, but it should have been explained at the beginning. Certainly a failed franchise.
LNER and EastCoast are example of excellent national railway operators where - when a rail operator is public owned shows that service can be profitable and successful. The problem with privatisation - are companies are in it for the money and are not bothered about the commuters. Granted that LNER are having a few issues as mentioned in the video, but when you are operating on a network which has thousands of different companies including network rail, you are going to see said issues mentioned. If the entire rail system was publicly owned and operated- Everything would be centralised meaning much more efficient operation- as the centralised body (GBR) would be able to schedule maintenance around services or vice versa and you would see less delays and cancellations.
@@jrhall8970 Every ECML operator has been profitable….they just haven’t met their financial targets. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. State control does not, in itself, deliver anything better.
@@Bungle-UK But the current system that we have does not work. Massive delays and cancellations. Failing to meet contract requirements. Not taking responsibility, for services. Too much cost, and hiked prices. What we have right now does not work and will never work. My comment above does make sense. If it is controlled by one organisation - ie which runs and operates everything on the railway. It would reduce cost, increase efficiency and increase performance and increase in customer satisfaction. Your comment makes no sense- if they haven’t met financial targets, that by its very definition means that they are not profitable. The whole purpose of the franchise fee that the rail operators have to pay, is to put money back into the public purse. Ie as a financial benefit, whilst the operators make a profit - however, as we have seen they don’t make a profit, it costs the uk government more money to keep the system as it is then just to run it as a public service. TFL runs and owns the underground - one organisation for one system. We need the same thing for our national rail service. A public body which runs and operates the national network like the underground. It makes no sense having a system that is so fragmented and disjointed. When properly funded and well structured organisations- state controlled can and does deliver. Not only that if it is state controlled railway, this could bring in additional funding for other public services as well. If you are simply wanting trains with different designs. U don’t need a franchise system to do this. All you would need to do is have different trains with different designs, but ran under one organisation.
@@jrhall8970 your third point here shows just how little you understand. You think not hitting a financial target means they weren’t profitable. Oh dear. Both National Express and Virgin bid too much for the East Coast franchise…..that means the amount they promised to pay the government was too high. They were making significant profits but not enough to cover the cost of those franchise payments, largely because of unexpected shifts in the economy which affected passenger numbers. That’s why they both defaulted, because they couldn’t deliver their contract. Look at what we have today. LNER is state controlled but has an ongoing driver dispute due to poor relations with management. They have also raised fares significantly, while providing an inferior onboard service compared to their old rolling stock. State ownership isn’t a magic solution - Northern is also a basket case.
@@Bungle-UK Absolutely. While being publicily owned does guarantee that those profits won't go into the hands of shareholders, there has never been any will by any government recently to cut unregulated ticket costs, which were raised particularly by the private operators for the specific purpose of shareholder profit, and LNER just got rid of the regulated fare on the grounds of its ""complexity"", leaving just the overpriced one which costs too much, and people aren't ever going to buy these flex tickets in their right mind, so therefore will just take the plane instead or use one of the open access competitors. With this current government wanting to fill in their "black hole", I just can't imagine there being any will to cut those overpriced fares.
Sadly privatised railway doesn’t actually run a better service. Power is centralised when a railway is nationalised - scheduling of works, timetables and ticket prices and rolling stock all controlled and owned by one body. The problem with the franchise system is that the rail operators don’t own the rolling stock(as we saw during the pandemic). Saw cost rise, and rail operators going bust. The government had to step in and bail them out. Another issue, there is no one body responsible for the overall operation of railway-meaning if there are delays or cancellations - rail operators have to fight it out between themselves and network rail to see, who’s fault it is. Which causes more issues, and delays getting refunds for passengers. Another is most rail operators are owned by foreign governments-which they themselves own their own railway. And most governments are from Europe. And as you have seen as in this video - when parent company sees there rail adventure is no longer profitable they pass the keys back to the government. This chopping and changing, you do not need. You need a consistent and constant rail operator. Which none of the private operators provide. GNER is a fluke example of where it worked. As said in this video the EastCoast operator saw high profits and high passenger numbers, with low cost tickets for travel. Then Virgin East Coast took over, which then reversed all the benefits saw during the operation of EastCoast and then once again, they handed back the keys back to the government, which then LNER took over and saw the return of benefits made during the operation of EastCoast.
@@jrhall8970 Virtually Non of what you said was accurate, it’s just the usual nonsense peddled by rail fans. East Coast is lauded as producing ‘high profits’ but the context of that is them delivering zero investment which helps the balance sheet. Virgin, for example, was just as profitable but was unable to pay the government the very high fees they promised which is why the franchise failed. Incidentally, in the system we have today there is a central body that controls everything - it’s called the Department for Transport. The private operators have zero control over any decisions, they just do why the DfT tell them to do.
@@Bungle-UK A lot of what I have said is very accurate - and would solve the current issue with the uk network. I would refer you to the video. Where it talks about EastCoast and LNER and why they were successful. Sadly with the EastCoast it was only temporary operator whilst the government try to find a company to takeover the operations, which is why the operator never made any investments during its time. It had plans to before it was handed over to virgin. The DFT does not operate the railway. The railway is operated by network rail(yes publicly owned, but not directly run by the DFT) and the train companies. If u take Europe for example, most countries has the state run the trains and the rail infrastructure as one under one public body. Look at the underground, TFL owns and runs the trains, all centralised, owned and operated by one organisation. A lot of the money taken out of the railways are by a third company which own the rolling stock. Rail operators like I said don’t own the actual trains. Another reason like u mentioned is the DFT massive franchise cost. We wouldn’t need to do that if we owned the actual network and trains as one, under one organisation. With the current systems there is to many delays, companies not taking responsible, hiked prices and rip offs. U mentioned that DFT tells the operators how to run it, that’s because it is part of the franchise agreement. Which would be another reason to renationalise the entire network, it would be simpler and less expensive just to run it as a public service. Take LNER, the has been a massive up tick in customer satisfaction, increased the number of routes, plans to expand its fleet of trains and replace the Class 91. Yes it has issues like any operator, but a lot of there issues come from externally, where that’s unions telling the staff to go one strike, other operations running late or breaking down or due to bad weather. The system that we have is too fragmented. We have too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Open operators are successful for a number for two main reasons 1. They own the actual trains. 2. They actually own and operate the actual the routes they choose to. But then you might say, we just make it all open operators. But the problem with that is, there will be areas of the uk which would not get served by a train due to a route not being profitable. Again it all comes down to profit. Nothing with that, but when it’s a public service, the last thing you need is for it be a money making driven, it needs to be run for the people, by the people.
One organisation running everything is not and should not be a viable solution, especially when that one organisation is the government. Let businesses run the trains, invest in the trains, make profits to run an effective business. Meanwhile hold the network operators to account. Don’t simply blame the train companies for not delivering when the network is to blame, and then even worse hit the train companies with fines and take their business into a government ran organisation. The price of the fares on LNER is ridiculous, and the government has no incentive or competition to drive those prices down. The investment from LNER has reduced massively. The government simply does not know how to run a business (arguably it does’t know how to run a country either)
@@cjt150 Exactly this! Too many rail fans forget that the rail network was built by private companies and operated by them for 100+ years. Nationalisation only covers a tiny part of UK rail history and represents the darkest period.
Not the normal video today! I apologise for this as I am away this week, next week we will be resuming with my WCML series!
A huge thank you to those who have given me permission to use their clips for this video;
www.youtube.com/@markappleby3282
www.youtube.com/@NapierNimbus
www.youtube.com/@Tonysrailvideos
www.youtube.com/@THAMESLINK319
www.youtube.com/@Caleb9C1
www.youtube.com/@RoyTheMouth
www.youtube.com/@Roo63
www.youtube.com/@LinesideSouthEast
www.youtube.com/@thetflthree Hugh Hillier: (Mis-spelled in the video!)
www.youtube.com/@RoscoTrain107
Thanks to my First Class, Business Zone & Standard class members! A special mention goes to my new members who joined after I uploaded this video:
Callum Martyn Bell (First Class)
Anthony James Moore: (Business Zone)
Dave CDF: (Standard Class)
Dennis Trident Enthusiast: (Standard Class)
Emi's Transport Shorts (Standard Class)
Honarata (Standard class)
legocountyfan: (Standard Class)
Lucas McGowan: (Standard Class)
Matt Dye: (Standard Class)
pcgamermike: (Standard Class)
The fact that all together, a video on solely the ECML is an hour is a testament to how much a disaster this franchise's history has been especially considering the WCML has had only two, one for 22 years. Also GNER's livery is the best out of the 5 operators, no questions asked.
What Railtrack did during it's tenure is at best unforgivable and at worst Murder. Case in point Ladbroke Grove in 1999 where at least 31 people lost their lives as a result of Railtrack failing to address a certain signal that was the subject of numerous SPAD Incidents couple with driver's concerns relating to said signal.
@@DKS225 By that logic BR committed murder several times a year.
As someone originally from London but at uni in Leeds from 2011 till 2014 - East Coast were fantastic.
Evem if I sometimes opted for the East Midland services to be sure of getting an HST.
Always loved your videos, great job as always
Thank you! Thanks for joining also, I really appreciate it 😄😄
Thanks so much Van, a real legend of train UA-cam as always :)
I wasn't alive at the time, but the more I learn about Railtrack the more I get angry. I have no idea how that didn't turn everybody off of railway privatisation all together.
Good the Government is making moves now, but shouldn't have taken so long.
On a Positive note enjoy your holiday Vanmanyo. Hopefully you will have a nice time.
A very useful film to watch. The one important aspect omitted is that 'Virgin Trains East Coast' (VTEC) was not in ownership Virgin. It was a Stagecoach / Virgin joint venture in which Statecoach had a 90% share and Virgin Group only 10%. Virgin were brought in be the 'brand' and to conceal Stagecoach's dominant control. Stagecoach as a brand was always damaged because of its 'bus bandit' beginnings andit was (and is) not a 'quality' brand in any way. Is control was hidden by the use of the Virgin brand (though not to the many users who knew it was really a Stagecoach franchise).. So VTEC was not at all like Virgin Trains' WCML service. In the end Stagecoach took the large losses and Virgin lost little. The commentary does refer near the end of its 'VTEC' segment of the film to Stagecoach, but it should have been explained at the beginning. Certainly a failed franchise.
Trying something different today that’s good
The times I used East Coast, I never had any issues and was always a positive experience. Any chance of a SWT/SWR vid?
Virgin Trains East Coast was my favourite!
what happened at 31:15 ?
Apologies! My software must have glitched a duplicated the audio :(
LNER and EastCoast are example of excellent national railway operators where - when a rail operator is public owned shows that service can be profitable and successful. The problem with privatisation - are companies are in it for the money and are not bothered about the commuters. Granted that LNER are having a few issues as mentioned in the video, but when you are operating on a network which has thousands of different companies including network rail, you are going to see said issues mentioned. If the entire rail system was publicly owned and operated- Everything would be centralised meaning much more efficient operation- as the centralised body (GBR) would be able to schedule maintenance around services or vice versa and you would see less delays and cancellations.
@@jrhall8970 Every ECML operator has been profitable….they just haven’t met their financial targets. Your comment makes no sense whatsoever. State control does not, in itself, deliver anything better.
@@Bungle-UK But the current system that we have does not work. Massive delays and cancellations. Failing to meet contract requirements. Not taking responsibility, for services. Too much cost, and hiked prices. What we have right now does not work and will never work.
My comment above does make sense. If it is controlled by one organisation - ie which runs and operates everything on the railway. It would reduce cost, increase efficiency and increase performance and increase in customer satisfaction.
Your comment makes no sense- if they haven’t met financial targets, that by its very definition means that they are not profitable.
The whole purpose of the franchise fee that the rail operators have to pay, is to put money back into the public purse. Ie as a financial benefit, whilst the operators make a profit - however, as we have seen they don’t make a profit, it costs the uk government more money to keep the system as it is then just to run it as a public service.
TFL runs and owns the underground - one organisation for one system.
We need the same thing for our national rail service. A public body which runs and operates the national network like the underground.
It makes no sense having a system that is so fragmented and disjointed. When properly funded and well structured organisations- state controlled can and does deliver.
Not only that if it is state controlled railway, this could bring in additional funding for other public services as well. If you are simply wanting trains with different designs. U don’t need a franchise system to do this. All you would need to do is have different trains with different designs, but ran under one organisation.
@@jrhall8970 your third point here shows just how little you understand. You think not hitting a financial target means they weren’t profitable. Oh dear. Both National Express and Virgin bid too much for the East Coast franchise…..that means the amount they promised to pay the government was too high. They were making significant profits but not enough to cover the cost of those franchise payments, largely because of unexpected shifts in the economy which affected passenger numbers. That’s why they both defaulted, because they couldn’t deliver their contract.
Look at what we have today. LNER is state controlled but has an ongoing driver dispute due to poor relations with management. They have also raised fares significantly, while providing an inferior onboard service compared to their old rolling stock. State ownership isn’t a magic solution - Northern is also a basket case.
@@Bungle-UK Absolutely. While being publicily owned does guarantee that those profits won't go into the hands of shareholders, there has never been any will by any government recently to cut unregulated ticket costs, which were raised particularly by the private operators for the specific purpose of shareholder profit, and LNER just got rid of the regulated fare on the grounds of its ""complexity"", leaving just the overpriced one which costs too much, and people aren't ever going to buy these flex tickets in their right mind, so therefore will just take the plane instead or use one of the open access competitors. With this current government wanting to fill in their "black hole", I just can't imagine there being any will to cut those overpriced fares.
GNER provided a far better onboard service than LNER does today. Suck that up nationalisation fans 🤣
Sadly privatised railway doesn’t actually run a better service. Power is centralised when a railway is nationalised - scheduling of works, timetables and ticket prices and rolling stock all controlled and owned by one body. The problem with the franchise system is that the rail operators don’t own the rolling stock(as we saw during the pandemic). Saw cost rise, and rail operators going bust. The government had to step in and bail them out. Another issue, there is no one body responsible for the overall operation of railway-meaning if there are delays or cancellations - rail operators have to fight it out between themselves and network rail to see, who’s fault it is. Which causes more issues, and delays getting refunds for passengers. Another is most rail operators are owned by foreign governments-which they themselves own their own railway. And most governments are from Europe. And as you have seen as in this video - when parent company sees there rail adventure is no longer profitable they pass the keys back to the government. This chopping and changing, you do not need. You need a consistent and constant rail operator. Which none of the private operators provide. GNER is a fluke example of where it worked. As said in this video the EastCoast operator saw high profits and high passenger numbers, with low cost tickets for travel. Then Virgin East Coast took over, which then reversed all the benefits saw during the operation of EastCoast and then once again, they handed back the keys back to the government, which then LNER took over and saw the return of benefits made during the operation of EastCoast.
@@jrhall8970 Virtually
Non of what you said was accurate, it’s just the usual nonsense peddled by rail fans. East Coast is lauded as producing ‘high profits’ but the context of that is them delivering zero investment which helps the balance sheet. Virgin, for example, was just as profitable but was unable to pay the government the very high fees they promised which is why the franchise failed.
Incidentally, in the system we have today there is a central body that controls everything - it’s called the Department for Transport. The private operators have zero control over any decisions, they just do why the DfT tell them to do.
@@Bungle-UK
A lot of what I have said is very accurate - and would solve the current issue with the uk network. I would refer you to the video. Where it talks about EastCoast and LNER and why they were successful.
Sadly with the EastCoast it was only temporary operator whilst the government try to find a company to takeover the operations, which is why the operator never made any investments during its time. It had plans to before it was handed over to virgin. The DFT does not operate the railway. The railway is operated by network rail(yes publicly owned, but not directly run by the DFT) and the train companies. If u take Europe for example, most countries has the state run the trains and the rail infrastructure as one under one public body. Look at the underground, TFL owns and runs the trains, all centralised, owned and operated by one organisation.
A lot of the money taken out of the railways are by a third company which own the rolling stock. Rail operators like I said don’t own the actual trains.
Another reason like u mentioned is the DFT massive franchise cost. We wouldn’t need to do that if we owned the actual network and trains as one, under one organisation. With the current systems there is to many delays, companies not taking responsible, hiked prices and rip offs.
U mentioned that DFT tells the operators how to run it, that’s because it is part of the franchise agreement. Which would be another reason to renationalise the entire network, it would be simpler and less expensive just to run it as a public service. Take LNER, the has been a massive up tick in customer satisfaction, increased the number of routes, plans to expand its fleet of trains and replace the Class 91. Yes it has issues like any operator, but a lot of there issues come from externally, where that’s unions telling the staff to go one strike, other operations running late or breaking down or due to bad weather. The system that we have is too fragmented. We have too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Open operators are successful for a number for two main reasons 1. They own the actual trains. 2. They actually own and operate the actual the routes they choose to. But then you might say, we just make it all open operators. But the problem with that is, there will be areas of the uk which would not get served by a train due to a route not being profitable. Again it all comes down to profit. Nothing with that, but when it’s a public service, the last thing you need is for it be a money making driven, it needs to be run for the people, by the people.
One organisation running everything is not and should not be a viable solution, especially when that one organisation is the government.
Let businesses run the trains, invest in the trains, make profits to run an effective business. Meanwhile hold the network operators to account.
Don’t simply blame the train companies for not delivering when the network is to blame, and then even worse hit the train companies with fines and take their business into a government ran organisation.
The price of the fares on LNER is ridiculous, and the government has no incentive or competition to drive those prices down.
The investment from LNER has reduced massively.
The government simply does not know how to run a business (arguably it does’t know how to run a country either)
@@cjt150 Exactly this! Too many rail fans forget that the rail network was built by private companies and operated by them for 100+ years. Nationalisation only covers a tiny part of UK rail history and represents the darkest period.