A good demonstration of why the mandate for rooftop helicopter access should not have been eliminated. Yes, flattopped buildings are not as interesting architecturally, but when you need that access you really need it.
@@davidhoffman1278 Actually David, that's a different question. It's usually not a good idea to go into a stairwell at such fires because they become like a chimney flue once the stairwell door on the fire floor is opened... and at least one stairwell door will be opened during firefighting operations. But that's not what I was asking. My point was, once they were on the roof they were safe. I'd say the greater risk was the removal by helicopter, so why introduce that risk?
@@azul8811 , Fire department standard protocol. Get all occupants out of the building. You can never be 100% certain that you have a fire contained enough to leave occupants on a roof. IF the fire is determined to be completely extinguished and all ignition sources doused then you might leave occupants on a roof.
@@davidhoffman1278 Oh? I'm quite surprised. You believe that people on the roof who were about 18 floors above the fire floor standing in fresh air were in danger? What about the people on all the floors _below_ the fire floor? Are those people in any peril? How many occupants does this building hold? It's 25 stories so it could possibly have 10 apartments a floor, no? If so, that could be 250 units. If those units were occupied by only 2 people, you'd have 500 people in the building. What do you think the stairways would be like with everyone exiting the building? IDK about LA, but in NYC the protocol for fires in fireproof (or non-combustible construction) high-rise multiple dwellings is....if the fire is not in your apartment, then stay inside your apartment (shelter in place) and listen for instructions from firefighters unless conditions become dangerous. You can read more if you click the link below. Look for section 6. www1.nyc.gov/assets/fdny/downloads/pdf/codes/nyc-apartment-building-emergency-guide.pdf
Google says: No, and the reason given is that the building was built in 1961 and for some reason their laws didn't include old buildings before the law was passed. As a non American, this is interesting to me because I thought the building was brand new based on appearance. I'm also questioning the effectiveness of the law if old buildings aren't updated to match new ones.
The flip side is broken sprinkler systems, lots of water damage, multiple "water flow" false alarms and Firefighters working only as emergency plumbers in these heavily sprinklered buildings. Just saying...keep those smoke detecters working.
@@sixstringbestfriend No system is perfect. I was at a high rise fire in Century City 20 years ago and the standpipe system was either broken or shut down half way up the building. Water had to be carried up via hoselines all the way up to the upper fire floor. (Firefighters could not use their hose packs and attache it to the standpipe on the fire floor). Same can happen to sprinkler systems. Unruly tenants can also disconnect or damage sprinkler systems. "Me Says" keep those smoke detectors and pull stations in good working order.
pinacoloda226 Many years ago I saw the movie, THE TOWERING INFERNO....scared the day lights out of me....I won't go above the 5th floor.. Hotels I always ask for a low floor
I knew somebody that lived in a high rise. A couple of times a month they had to evacuate the building because of a fire alarm. Kids burning popcorn. The newlyweds that couldn't cook. The idiot that tried to use a hibachi on his balcony. He told me that somebody had a pot party and the smoke was so thick it set off the alarm.
Couldn't see the big picture, so maybe there was a reason, but I did not see any water being directed on the fire or white smoke/steam indicating progress was being made. ... just seems strange.
No interior fire stairs? No fire doors? Even back in the 50's those things were required in most other states. And why would guy threaten to jump off a balcony unless he was trying to commit suicide. Was it arson and he was the one who started the fire? Just curious. I do understand the lack of sprinklers, laws change but buildings would be grandfathered in with the exception of hospitals.
1. What makes you think that there were no interior fire stairs or fire doors? 2. People threaten to jump because of panic. 3. Please explain what you mean by saying that you understand the lack of sprinklers, but that buildings would be grandfathered in with the exception of hospitals. Are you suggesting that some buildings should be retrofitted and some should not?
@@azul8811 obv there were interior stair wells / fire stairs BUT aparrently they were not presurised so JUST like the mgm Grand fire in las vagas in 1980 fire escape stairs filled with smoke and the grenfel tower fire in the uk there was only 1 stairwell in the middle of the tower that filled with smoke too ....a lot of high rise flats or apartments as you call them in the U.S here in the uk have 1 single core stairwell ande thats it and most have glass doors to them all be it toughed glass with wire through but they are just normal doors on a door closer arm ...and tbh in he flats i lived in the frames were painted wood anyhow so a fire would have burnt through long before the glass gave in! ...sorry for rambling but the state of the 60s built flats in the uk for fire are worse that than the U.S ...no sprinklers , no alarms what so ever, need i go on?
@@firelensman what about the footage where the f.d. was performing an outside attack from the aerial ladders to cool the temperatures for the interior attack team?
@@firelensman The news broadcast showed what I'm talking about. Fire chief Ralph Terrazas described in detail how they fought the fire from the aerial ladders to cool the temperatures inside the units that were burning to assist the interior attack teams.
@@firelensman 26 years ago when we used to run the same calls I was in dispatch so it was no big deal to be out and about but I've been out in the field since 03 so it's been a no-go for a long time...sometimes I miss it and I certainly have respect for what guys like you do... You are the professionals... All the best and stay safe
The roof top doors on the WTC building that did not have the television tower were locked. Add in the intense varying thermal updrafts and smoke. Hovering for a hoist wire rope lift would have been extremely difficult. NYPD helicopters reported difficulty flying at what they had initially thought was a reasonable distance. They had to back off and fly higher to have safe handling.
@@davidhoffman1278 The television tower was in the center of the building. The helicopter could have hovered around the edge of the building to get a line down to people to take them up into the helicopter instead of people jumping to their death. It would have been dangerous but lives would have been saved. The helicopter crew would have been honored for it.
@@Angry.General1461 , To do that you would need an excellent line launcher and then you need an excellent anchored pully system to get people out of the building. To do the anchoring you would have needed to put a team inside the building above the highest fire floor. There was no way to do that under the conditions that existed.
@@Angry.General1461 , Not with an very unbalanced updraft load on the main rotor. Add in significant smoke ingestion to the engines creating engine surges and you have a hugely difficult hovering situation. A hoist line is going to be bouncing all over the place in hot toxic smoke.
@@davidhoffman1278 They could use a heavier-duty helicopter like the Chinook or Blackhawk with a stronger rotor. They could grab a few people drop them off and come back.
My sympathy to the family who lost a loved one. Praying those injured recover quickly. I am thankful I live in the country on one floor.
A good demonstration of why the mandate for rooftop helicopter access should not have been eliminated. Yes, flattopped buildings are not as interesting architecturally, but when you need that access you really need it.
What kind of immediate danger were the 15 people and a dog in that required that they be removed from the roof by helicopter?
@@azul8811 , Might have had downward escape routes blocked by smoke, so they went up.
@@davidhoffman1278 Actually David, that's a different question. It's usually not a good idea to go into a stairwell at such fires because they become like a chimney flue once the stairwell door on the fire floor is opened... and at least one stairwell door will be opened during firefighting operations. But that's not what I was asking. My point was, once they were on the roof they were safe. I'd say the greater risk was the removal by helicopter, so why introduce that risk?
@@azul8811 ,
Fire department standard protocol. Get all occupants out of the building. You can never be 100% certain that you have a fire contained enough to leave occupants on a roof. IF the fire is determined to be completely extinguished and all ignition sources doused then you might leave occupants on a roof.
@@davidhoffman1278 Oh? I'm quite surprised. You believe that people on the roof who were about 18 floors above the fire floor standing in fresh air were in danger? What about the people on all the floors _below_ the fire floor? Are those people in any peril?
How many occupants does this building hold? It's 25 stories so it could possibly have 10 apartments a floor, no? If so, that could be 250 units. If those units were occupied by only 2 people, you'd have 500 people in the building. What do you think the stairways would be like with everyone exiting the building?
IDK about LA, but in NYC the protocol for fires in fireproof (or non-combustible construction) high-rise multiple dwellings is....if the fire is not in your apartment, then stay inside your apartment (shelter in place) and listen for instructions from firefighters unless conditions become dangerous. You can read more if you click the link below. Look for section 6.
www1.nyc.gov/assets/fdny/downloads/pdf/codes/nyc-apartment-building-emergency-guide.pdf
Great job. Does anyone have the radio traffic recorded for this incident?
Great catch! Did this building not have a sprinkler system?
Google says: No, and the reason given is that the building was built in 1961 and for some reason their laws didn't include old buildings before the law was passed.
As a non American, this is interesting to me because I thought the building was brand new based on appearance. I'm also questioning the effectiveness of the law if old buildings aren't updated to match new ones.
The flip side is broken sprinkler systems, lots of water damage, multiple "water flow" false alarms and Firefighters working only as emergency plumbers in these heavily sprinklered buildings. Just saying...keep those smoke detecters working.
@@firelensman Interesting counterpoint. So sprinklers aren't exactly a perfect solution either. I never considered that.
@@sixstringbestfriend No system is perfect. I was at a high rise fire in Century City 20 years ago and the standpipe system was either broken or shut down half way up the building. Water had to be carried up via hoselines all the way up to the upper fire floor. (Firefighters could not use their hose packs and attache it to the standpipe on the fire floor). Same can happen to sprinkler systems. Unruly tenants can also disconnect or damage sprinkler systems. "Me Says" keep those smoke detectors and pull stations in good working order.
Apparently not...older buildings are not required to imstall a sprinkler system ...now somebody died.....how costly is that...
Whoa..I once lived in a highrise,and boy am I glad I'm not anymore!!😰
pinacoloda226 Many years ago I saw the movie, THE TOWERING INFERNO....scared the day lights out of me....I won't go above the 5th floor..
Hotels I always ask for a low floor
I knew somebody that lived in a high rise. A couple of times a month they had to evacuate the building because of a fire alarm. Kids burning popcorn. The newlyweds that couldn't cook. The idiot that tried to use a hibachi on his balcony. He told me that somebody had a pot party and the smoke was so thick it set off the alarm.
@@ThePHYL love that movie!! Yep but it was super scary!!
@@brainfreeze44131 or homeless pulling the alarm for the heck of it😨😨 yeah its certainly annoying and irritating!
Very nice video. Looked like a very hot fire to melt those windows. Thanks for your hard work.
Did they have sprinklers?
That was a excellent video Martin. It was a great catch. Stay safe brother
Great video . Iike that !! greating From holland .
Couldn't see the big picture, so maybe there was a reason, but I did not see any water being directed on the fire or white smoke/steam indicating progress was being made. ... just seems strange.
Milton, Yep, white smoke is good...relatively speaking.
No interior fire stairs? No fire doors? Even back in the 50's those things were required in most other states. And why would guy threaten to jump off a balcony unless he was trying to commit suicide. Was it arson and he was the one who started the fire? Just curious. I do understand the lack of sprinklers, laws change but buildings would be grandfathered in with the exception of hospitals.
1. What makes you think that there were no interior fire stairs or fire doors?
2. People threaten to jump because of panic.
3. Please explain what you mean by saying that you understand the lack of sprinklers, but that buildings would be grandfathered in with the exception of hospitals. Are you suggesting that some buildings should be retrofitted and some should not?
@@azul8811 obv there were interior stair wells / fire stairs BUT aparrently they were not presurised so JUST like the mgm Grand fire in las vagas in 1980 fire escape stairs filled with smoke and the grenfel tower fire in the uk there was only 1 stairwell in the middle of the tower that filled with smoke too ....a lot of high rise flats or apartments as you call them in the U.S here in the uk have 1 single core stairwell ande thats it and most have glass doors to them all be it toughed glass with wire through but they are just normal doors on a door closer arm ...and tbh in he flats i lived in the frames were painted wood anyhow so a fire would have burnt through long before the glass gave in! ...sorry for rambling but the state of the 60s built flats in the uk for fire are worse that than the U.S ...no sprinklers , no alarms what so ever, need i go on?
Ok, Where is water???
Ok, where is the hose???
Why not use the tower ladders and knock the fire down when it was burning the first apartment???
I was wondering the same thing. Ladder truck with a monitor and AFF.
They would rather fight inside tower ladders would blow fire into the building
You missed the part when they were putting It out. 😎😉
Did not miss it, not much to see but a small puff of steam...
@@firelensman what about the footage where the f.d. was performing an outside attack from the aerial ladders to cool the temperatures for the interior attack team?
Uh, you sure? I was on the other side of the building and did not see anything like you mentioned.
@@firelensman The news broadcast showed what I'm talking about. Fire chief Ralph Terrazas described in detail how they fought the fire from the aerial ladders to cool the temperatures inside the units that were burning to assist the interior attack teams.
Do the helos have some sort of air conditioning to keep the smoke out?
When I was a little kid many many years ago, my mother had fire drills
She was smart.
Job well done. Lucky it was low enough to reach with ladders.
way to go Nate!
you know wuz up...
@@firelensman 26 years ago when we used to run the same calls I was in dispatch so it was no big deal to be out and about but I've been out in the field since 03 so it's been a no-go for a long time...sometimes I miss it and I certainly have respect for what guys like you do... You are the professionals... All the best and stay safe
Where Was the Inspectors With the Sprinkler system at the Auto Ventilation system of the Staircases ' Flash Back of 911
Good point, sprinklers?? Keep an eye on this and post updates please.
The water sprinklers did nothing
I had nightmares as a kid of this after swing the towering inferno
yep keep building those high-rise buildings they're so pretty can't put out fires though
Stephen Verombeck How many stories do you suggest they limit the height to?
That's smarts
Flashover 19:07
Flashover 4:53 & 19:07
that smell will be in there for a long time talk about pollution
27:06 Why didn't they think of that when September 11th happened???
The roof top doors on the WTC building that did not have the television tower were locked. Add in the intense varying thermal updrafts and smoke. Hovering for a hoist wire rope lift would have been extremely difficult. NYPD helicopters reported difficulty flying at what they had initially thought was a reasonable distance. They had to back off and fly higher to have safe handling.
@@davidhoffman1278 The television tower was in the center of the building. The helicopter could have hovered around the edge of the building to get a line down to people to take them up into the helicopter instead of people jumping to their death. It would have been dangerous but lives would have been saved. The helicopter crew would have been honored for it.
@@Angry.General1461 ,
To do that you would need an excellent line launcher and then you need an excellent anchored pully system to get people out of the building. To do the anchoring you would have needed to put a team inside the building above the highest fire floor. There was no way to do that under the conditions that existed.
@@Angry.General1461 ,
Not with an very unbalanced updraft load on the main rotor. Add in significant smoke ingestion to the engines creating engine surges and you have a hugely difficult hovering situation. A hoist line is going to be bouncing all over the place in hot toxic smoke.
@@davidhoffman1278 They could use a heavier-duty helicopter like the Chinook or Blackhawk with a stronger rotor. They could grab a few people drop them off and come back.