Israel on Trial: the TRUTH about South Africa's ICJ Case
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- Months ago, South Africa took their case to the ICJ arguing that Israel was committing a g3n0cide against the Palestinian people. While the evidence and strength of the case would be argued in court, the court of public opinion took one small line and ran with it - the idea that these charges were "plausible." However, the former ICJ President issued a clarification which upsets this entire understanding. Does this change everything?
MOMENTS:
00:00 highlights
00:35 when the news first broke
05:47 the former icj president
13:01 loner on the record (correct)
17:16 the left's misinterpretations
25:22 the right wing got carried away
32:17 just asking questions...
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#destiny #vaush #politicaldebates #israelhamaswar
Just learned the ICJ will not consider gamer oppression as genocide 😔
is it overwhelmingly plausible they will?
Or horses 🐴😭😭😭😭
But gamers are the most oppressed minority!
goddamn capitalist fascists nazis 😓
We truly live in a society 😔😔
Plausability is such a high standard that if Destiny went to the court that Finklestein hit him so he wants to get damages for assault, the judge would look at it, and say: “hmm, yeah, hitting someone is indeed assault, and there is no reason to think that Finklestein and Destiny never met, the case is plausible, the case can proceed”
Lol. Noah Samson with a bad take? I see the earth is round
Bc of how finklestein writes his books, he assumes 84 page or 450 page icj reports must be equally as one sided.
Don't be mean to noah samsen. He can't read
his fans would be big mad if
I wish he couldn't read. He would prolly have less bad takes.
That guy is so condescendingly dumb he makes me physically angry
2:25 gamers are truly the most oppressed not even the icj recognizes the geno slide against us
fenklestein isnt gonna be very happy when he finds out he was wrong, again
He'll just block this out and proudly claim he doesn't use technology and doesn't get his news from UA-cam because he is a scholar who has read copious books.
@@LoudWaffle😂😂
The finkle clips are always funny. The man really acts like a professional clown
His mannerism is so uncomfortable to look at
@@LuKing2 why? these are the same problems people had with trump
it's only annoying/sad if you take him seriously, if you trully embrace the "we live in a insane world" it's actually quite funny
“the evidence was overwhelmingly sufficient to be plausible”
It OVERWHEMINGLY...exists as a concept. Remember norm speaks at 30 words per minute because words have meaning. I guess it's more that he's still trying to determine what that meaning is...
@@d3waynn3 moreso what i find really… really gross and slimy is the conflation of real and colloquial definitions of evidentiary standards. they conflated a term used for a higher evidentiary standard to describe a lower evidentiary standard. its like saying “i passed all my classes enough to make a D”. it makes no sense. D isn’t passing, but I described it as such.
That sounds accurate to me.
When Fink chooses to compare the ICJ hearing to an athlete being allowed to compete in the olympics, immediately you know he's being absolutely dishonest. It's one of the most blatant false-equivalencies I've ever heard in a debate, and anyone with a modicum of good faith can see that. If what he's saying is true, wouldn't that mean that every single case that makes it past pre-trial dismissal is inherently a good case and the defendant is always guilty? Why do we even have a trial, then? Why wouldn't we just decide it then and there, if the accusation alone is evidence enough? And Fink knows this. If it were Hamas being sued and someone used this logic on him, he'd be saying it made absolutely no sense.
Every year Noah Samsen looks more and more like a serial killer trucker from 1975.
The ICJ says, yes a genocide could possibly occur during this conflict. Dinklestien hears, there is evidence to suggest a genocide is happening.
People shit on Destiny for reading wikipedia, but at least he has basic reading comprehension.
people shit on Destiny because he's a dumbass. He can't point Israel on a map
All the shit talk from norm and this comes out it's hilarious how fucking stupid he looks now.
Atlest when it comes to one sided propaganda from the perpetrators
Those two descriptions are distinctions without any practical difference.
@@darrene.vonbraun4421 You are just completely wrong, but I don't have any novel way to explain this to you that hasn't been done by others already, including Lonerbox in this video, and the ICJ court president who ruled on the plausibility herself. THE ICJ DID NOT IN *ANY* WAY RULE ON HOW PLAUSIBLE THE ACCUSATIONS OF GENOCIDE ARE.
These people are expecting the ICJ to function like Ace Attorney when the protag defense isn't there
How come Lonerbox turned off comments on his Owen Jones video?
I think in this analogy, it's more like "being allowed to apply for the Olympic team"
There are two ways of viewing this.
(1) The ruling was only about whether or not certain rights were implicated, not whether or not the rights were violated.
(2) To compare it to the American legal system, this is like getting past the grand jury. Getting past the grand jury functionally means nothing. It literally just means there is enough evidence to proceed, not that the grand jury actually believes that there has been any wrongdoing
there still is a need of proof to bother going on trial, does not look good on israel.
this is a court where the elite goes, they dont do this without a solid base.
consider that the US single handedly denied everything thrown at Israel by ... the world?
to get to ICJ is not good for the resume.
@@whatsup9260 The resume lmao you really got them now.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD dont get me wrong, i am sure there are some accusation that are wrong
but the past 80 years of Israel and the israelites speaking their mind and actions taken, even if they actually have a tendency to not put much on paper...we have video now...oups.
@@whatsup9260exactly, this is the first time in history where we are witnessing goodwill and support for a country get pissed away, by said nation.
The quintessential example of ‘fumbling the bag’
@@whatsup9260calling them Israelites rlly takes away ur credibility
Horse genocide? Like the Grand National am I right
I believe the real question should be why exactly would the ICJ need to put out a report to qualify the Palestinian people under the Genova convention/international law and qualify their protection under such? lol wtf was the point of the report?!
Because things like jurisdiction needs to be determined first so that everyone doesn’t waste their time and money on a frivolous lawsuit.
because that's how courts work, first you need to say that you can rule over a case before doing so... or you would have criminal courts judging speeding tickets
It was just like opening/leaving the door open for possible future cases if needed
It's like an indictment or grand jury deciding there's enough evidence to proceed.
People are talking like all Destiny did was look at wikipedia. He was debating people like twice a day, and was getting really familiar with the talking points and arguments. Even when he was looking at wikipedia, he had an entire chatroom of people who could point out stuff, or info that wasn't included in the wiki entry.
HOW DARE YOU?!!?!?!!?!? :P
You miss the part where he was reading book passages and reports on screen, Wikipedia is typically just a starting point to get a broad overview so he knows the terminology to search to get actual sources.
Being a wiki reader isn't good, but there is a positive to having a chat right by him.
@@OnlyRusseLLHD Not really, the vast majority of his reading is wikipedia. Only a book and a few reports to verify numbers.
@@2460-1 Even so does that even matter? All of the sources Wikipedia uses are cited and literally at the bottom of each page, Destiny could literally go over every single one of those to be certain the information is real, but there's no reason to as Wikipedia has become more of a reputable source as time has gone on (Though originally it absolutely was a joke). And all of the information he cites in his Finklestein debate Benny Morris will constantly affirm as being correct, so it's clearly information that's correct enough to have a "Giant" in the field completely agreeing with what he's saying and seeing it as accurate historically. Then having the chat next to you during all his research to point out things he should look at like videos or journalist posts that might give more context to the conflict.
Could you include the link to the ICJ response to the SA filing in the description?
Gamers not covered by the genocide conventions? Truly the most persecuted minority
"You're just doing 'asking questions'." Um...that's LITERALLY what a trial is about. If the question was already answered, we could skip trial and go straight to sentencing or dismissing the accused. So, yes, since they haven't even gone to trial yet, much less examined the evidence and reached a verdict of any kind, we're very much still at the "asking questions" phase. Once the evidence is examined, THEN it will be wrong to "ask questions."
"Mr. Borelli" is Destiny's "Bonerbox"
Good video. Well researched
Anyway... What about the genocide in Gaza!?
It's horrific.
Whenever Finklestein says he's "read something 3 times", that's actually a tell that he's not read that thing, or he's only skimmed it. It's what he says when Destiny catches him in his 'mens rea' moment, and there's absolutely no way he had actually read the ICJ lawsuit three times, let alone ONCE. He either had someone read it for him, vaguely skimmed it without looking closely, or he didn't read it at all. I've heard him say he's read something three times as an argument before, it was a defensive lie to grant h imself an authority he never actually had on the topic.
If the icj said it was not plausible would you ask for more investigations??? Hmmm.
Finkelstein is right that his swimmer is plausibly able to win a medal. But so is my friends 2 year old who just figured out doggie-paddling
Not really.
Thank you 🤠💜
So if i am following right, plausible is similar to the concept of standing in US law.
7:46 this is exactly the risk of people taking legal language and assuming it has its colloquial meaning, and in turn totally misrepresenting legal texts and rulings
this is news to people..?
NPR article written by Fatima Al-Kassab... just pointing out that most headlines written like this in mainstream western media seem to have a certain personal bias.
Yeah lots of cope on the left,
But I do think it’s smart of South Africa to play it safe, they’re essentially representing Palestine which is a big deal in and of itself.
That’s how I see it. Anyone agree?
Why is "Gambia and Myanmar" so fun to say?
I hate lonerbox and his fans
much love to good analyst like you :). I think LonerBox would still accept people like you, so instead of hating, join his stream and prove him wrong or smth :)
Plausible risk of genocide and plausible that israel is doing genocide just sounds like semantics. Maybe I'm not 5head as lonerbox but can someone explain to what the difference is? Is the distinction here that soldiers or politicians acting on their own accord could do actions that amount to genocide rather than the israeli state itself? If so then that doesn't much better.
I’ll try to explain it as simply as I can.
1) The ICJ had to determine whether the Palestinians (or SA on their behalf) could even bring this issue to court. Israel said the court doesn’t even have jurisdiction bc the GC doesn’t cover political/military groups, in other words, Hamas cannot be the victims of genocide. South Africa says while Hamas cannot be the victim of genocide, the Palestinians could be.
The Court agrees, the Palestinians are a national group that are covered by the GC. That should be rather self-evident.
2) The GC contains certain rights/protections but a violation or even potential violation of one of those rights doesn’t mean Israel (or whoever) is committing the crime of Genocide.
For example, “direct and public incitement to commit genocide” is covered under the GC. If I’m an Israeli Member of Knesset (MK), I could go to every town and city in Israel, calling Palestinians demons and subhumans and declaring that to avenge October 7, Israelis should round up the Palestinians of Gaza and drown them in the sea. This would undeniably be incitement to commit genocide and the Palestinians’ right to be protected from this under the Convention is at play. However, that doesn’t mean at the point the court is hearing the case, Israel is meeting all or even most of the criteria necessary to be committing, plausible or otherwise, a genocidal campaign against the Palestinian People.
@@benjaminr6153 So it's a preemptive measure that finds whether if a genocide could happen and thanks to all the genocidal statements by Israelis it finds that plausible. If the court rules in SA's favour then does it convert into a full on genocide trial or do they immediately issue an order to Israel to stop the offensive and ask members to intervene?
Yes, this essentially was a preemptive measure in case Palestinians could be the victims of a genocide in the near future; it’s just a bit over theoretical possibility. The Court did not grant all the preliminary measures asked by South Africa (such as ordering a ceasefire) but basically laid out what Israel is supposed to do anyway under international law to minimize the impact on civilians.
Next up is a review of the merits - that could take years - *if* say in the year 2027 - the ICJ rules that the Government of Israel did commit a genocide, the power of the court to really do anything is limited but its findings could be brought before the UNSC for imposition of sanctions and the persons responsible for genocide would or could be subject to prosecution under a separate panel/court.
Coming from tiktok u often see the Finklestien viewpoint.
The ICJ made nobody happy. In other words, they sided with LonerBox.
Owen Jones lying? Colour me shocked.
Thank you, for speaking the true
not the first time LoserBox tried to deny genocide LOL
"wounded knee was not a massacre because you didn't say simon says, and they were "eNemY CombaTanTs!"
"LOOK HAMAS WAS HIDING INSIDE THAT FIRE HYDRANT, WE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO LAUNCH A NUKE!"
DONT CALL IM LOSERBOX HE IS GONNA GET MAAAAAD, PLS DOOOONT. Oh ye very good faith comment :)
@@papertroll1 problem, officer?
@@leftymclefterson582 not at all :) right??? xd, why do u ask?
@@papertroll1 I am high as well :P
@@leftymclefterson582 okkaaay hahah
How dare you say Gamers can't be geonocided!! Time to twitlonger, or xlonger I guess now.
Dude I come once in a while to check if LB is already dropping this pro genocide thing, but NOPE it just keeps getting worse.
No sign of stopping. During the most obvious genocide in history.
just because you made your mind up after 20 seconds on social media doesn’t make it obvious.
most obvious? Oh thats why we are talkin about ICC cuz its soooo obvious duuh. Meh i have a feeling that you are kinda helping IDF do their JOB. Actually im starting to think that IDF is paying you. Hmm plausible i guess ://
@@papertroll1 I have no clue what you're babbling about
@@evanr5871 no, what it makes it obvious is the fact that it's being practically livestreamed. Add to that PLENTY of stuff to read, books and media, that I don't think you care about. You could also read SA's case, it's a good read. Will you? No, you'll keep being a sucker for some hack streamer that tells you what to think.
@@mgg7756 oh forget about it, im just happy ur doing fine :)
this has doen so much damage to the left
It’s the final nail in the coffin
It's okay, Ukraine also tore the right apart.
none of you LB enjoyers are in no "left". The "left" doesn't side with genocide.
@@ChucksSEADnDEAD whataboutism
@@mgg7756 hahahaha ur doin great and ur definitely changing minds with: "Our group doesn't support genocide and you do, so we are not the same group and also i know it is genocide cuz people are dying i mean duuh AAAND ICC SAYS ITS THE WORST GENOCIDE IN HISTORY!"
Not sure the problem in the explanation is “legal language”. Fumble.
11:39 it was a victory for breadtubers, i guess
What does she know about the ruling she made as the head of the group making the ruling :D
LonerBox.....the full of lies channel.
🍄
Wow I couldn't hear Norman's nonsense and not laugh out loud 😂😂😂😂😂
@29:20 Wasn't that just found at Al-Shifa
that's the claim, but still the evidence hasn't been checked neither by the ICJ or indenpendent orgs, as far as I know
We have videos of the hospital digging mass graves we have interviews with hospital staff saying they have to dig mass graves and now we have to pretend that this is news wow 😂
yeah im not a lawyer, im not gunna nit pick while people are being starved to death in the ashes of their own homes. its a genocide. and if its somehow not considered a genocide, im more inclined to think the definition should be changed to include this level of evil.
Do you have a reference to a single instance of a Palestinian who has starved to death that did not have some previous lethal medical condition?
@@dshappir yes, but i cant link in youtube chat. search palestinian incubator babies. they literally wasted away because there is no formula or people capable of lactating.
@@dshappir yes, but i cant link in youtube chat nore mention certain countries. search pale stin, in cub ator babies. they literally wasted away because there is no formula or people capable of lactating.
@@dshappir @dshappir yes, but i cant link in youtube chat or mention certain words in combination. search pal3 st1n, in cvb @tor b@b13s. they wasted away no formula 1 or people cap able of lack of tating
@@RiceShouldBeFluffy would be nice if i could respond to either of you without youtube auto-deleting my comments. the moment i say something specific. boom. love the inability to do a google search, and your hate fueled apathy in particular. i think you 2 are indicative of what this channel really represents. i thought i could learn something from lonerbox, but i think he just exists to muddy the water on this very clear issue. we need solidarity on this issue now more than ever, and this place is a cesspool.
Effectively, this ruling was the equivalence of when a US court denies a motion to dismiss on grounds of failure to state a claim for which relief can be granted. Basically, it's saying there's enough there to go to their equivalent of discovery and move towards actual trial on the merits of the claim.
Shmust shmasking shmwestions... .................. .......... Shmucks
First time being first
What's the point of this video?
Exactly my thoughts
Fr bro I'm starting to hate lonerbox and his annoying fans
22:33 Ken Roth was on the Comedy Cellar podcast, " Live at the Table" the owner is a Jewish Lawyer ... Roth didn't have good answers. It's about 1hr long
Yup, that was very interesting. In general, I highly recommend the Comedy Cellar podcast...I think it's called "Live at the Table"
@EytanKoch Thank you, I add an update.What's the title of the show.
Ah yes I get my informed opinions from a conversation I've heard in something called "the Comedy Cellar podcast"
Finklefans be seething
Personally I think the real misunderstanding/misinformation isn't the use of the term "plausible", it's the insistence/implication that plausibility is a high standard. In general use the standard for plausibility is really only that it's feasible to think it could happen, in that sense the ICJ did kind of say it was plausible, but in practice that only really means that you can't outright declare it's not a genocide, it's barely above "technically possible". I know that's not the legal definition but even the legal definition is pretty loose because the intent of the term is really just to say that it's reasonable to consider if it might be the case, that it can't be immediately dismissed as a possibility.
What I'm about to say is NOT what the court said, (and I think I'm agreeing with you here), but even if you understand "plausible" by the regular, non-legal, English definition of the word, it just means there is a non-zero chance of X, Y, or Z, happening. Even if the probability of the event happening is only 1% (i.e. EXTREMELY unlikely), it is still plausible. Whichever definition you go by, legal or English, it certainly seems to be a very low bar.
People are saying there is not a genocide happening, because there isnt.
Like you said, it could still happen but no its not right now.
Its perfectly reasonable to say there's no genocide right now.
So what is it then?
@@ethanaskey7285 it is a war started on Oct 7.
@ethanaskey7285 It's a military conflict in which one side has built their infrastructure in civilian areas, and the other side is pursuing a series of highly aggressive military strikes in those civilian areas in pursuit of military targets, but resulting in high (in absolute terms) numbers of civilian casualties. That's as neutral as I can think to be 🤷
Imo, Israel has been way too aggressive in it's tactics and that's led to a series of highly profile errors that undermine their international credibility. Israel went, as it always does, for the most aggressive action possible on the basis that this discourages other attacks (which it doesn't).
That being said, I don't have a f'ing clue how you're supposed to deal with a terrorist government that wants you extinct living on your doorstep, but I don't think tearing apart their civilian infrastructure and population is the answer because that pushes peace with that civilian population further away.
Anyway, definitely not a genocide now, but there is a definite risk that Israel's actions could become genocidal in the future if they were to continue on their current trajectory.
Sidenote, if you're against Israel's actions then stop trying to label them as genocidal (or Gaza as living under apartheid) as it simply isn't true and becomes the focus of the conversation. If someone (correctly) disagrees that it's currently a genocide then it often takes the air out of the discussion, whereas pointing out that Israel has killed a huge number of civilians in pursuit of a relatively small number of military targets, and that this is a poor strategy for pursuing their aims and/or peace, leads to a much more fruitful discussion in which it's easier to convince someone of the need for a ceasefire which, broadly speaking, is what we should all be aiming for.
@@User53123 Bot Israeli account. Your initial post was fine, but now you revealed your hand as a true NPC
@@jeremyn4397 let me elaborate.
Claiming a genocide is happening when a war is taking place is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a building.
People may believe that it is hot and a fire might break out, but you can't yell "fire" to purposely cause a panic. This is exactly why this rhetoric has to be stopped. Yes it is a war, yes it was started on Oct 7. There was a ceasefire before that. How is this "bot" language?
It took ICJ 17 years to rule genocide case from Yugoslavian civil war. Ofcourse they dont rule Israel is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt after few months, those things take years. What is important is fact that ICJ issued israel to take preventing measures in order to stop further potential criminal activity and to secure evidences for future investigetion. Israel ignored that, got butthurt and called ICJ antisemitic (lol). Yet here we are, arguing if plausible means "maybe yes" or rather "maybe not".
This! I think this is what streamers like Lonerbox are missing here.
I’d also argue it’s a good reason to apply a little salt to streamers who do not understand foreign relations.
This comment gives me hope that this channel, its creator and fans are not a tub of genocide sympathizers. Lonerbox has been showing some unfortunate and yet, predictable sides to his rationale that has made me lose trust in him. Maybe not all his content but definitely this stuff.
What we have here are a bunch of Israel apologists (trolls) act as though all the evidence and court discussions of the actions of the Israli govt and the IDF are just that, conversations. That no harm or crime has been committed because no decision has been made. He is technically right. But technically is only element of being right. He's practically saying that crime death and destruction can continue so long as courts do not call it that. If they don't say its a genocide, then meh. Its not right? Who cares about videos on tiktok showing 100s if not 1000s of dead women and children and whether its fake or not. The court has decided. Right?
And if they do call it a genocide and issue an arrest for the country's leaders, well then LonerBox and his followers can switch up the game by stating that what powers do the courts have? Who gave them all this power, isn't it America? So doesn't the real power to judge come from them? And do they think its genocide? If no, then Ha! Gotcha! If yes...... Repeat that last step and continue.
Whatever you do, keep talking. Because that distracts us from the daily loss of life and land of an entire culture and nation. Good job LonerBox, your parents must be proud and history will remember you for the hero that you are.
@@ggk9828 By the same logic, all Nazis would have been fine, since they stopped g-siding jews before any of them got convicted for doing genocide. The apologia by "left-leaning" liberals like Loner is absolutely disgusting.
@@wfb.subtraktor311 agree that it’s disappointing.
The problem is that due to a lack of an intimate understanding of the conflict, a lot of these streamers are implying a sophistry experts do not.
@@archerbluth What is sad about Lonerbox is that he IS Palestinian and still does this. He is like a Jewish fascist in 1943 denying the holocaust is happening in the hopes the Nazis will like him.
This lonerbox guy is pretty decent
Indeed :)
Imagine going "uhm asckhually ceasefire is bad" when Israel is commit a genocide and calling it "a war"
How can ceasefire exist when there is no war? SMH
Ok lib
One thing youre wrong about opposing the claims "there is no genocide". Based on the court which is in this case what we are going off of, there is NO genocide. They are saying that there is the potential for a genocide under the circumstances but that the evidence does not point to that at the current state. So playing the middle man and saying "thats not what the ICJ is saying either." Is for the sake of appeasing the other side despite their false understanding of the ICJ's ruling. The fact of the matter is that the ruling states that there is NOT enough evidence to rule Israel's actions as genocidal.
Ok lib,
uuuuuuu dont, cmon its 2 much, pls, a lil more politeness, no?
Ok lib
I’m not curious based on the opening, had me feeling too bogged down with either pedantry or a bad explanation of “plausible genocide”
Didn’t see the point of the video 10% in don’t want to spend the rest of the 90% to see what else would be said to a point that seemed pointless
By all means, continue to bask in your willful ignorance and stupidity
You're playin on words ,the icj could simply reject the accusation if there is no risk
The point is people are making the point about plausible as if it’s this big deal when you could have this done for almost every war.
No. Plausibility in the legal system usually means that “if I take their accusations at face value, there is a possibility they will win”.
If Destiny went to the court to sue Finklestein for damages coming from an assault because F hit him, the judge would say: “yeah hitting him is assault and if he got medical bills from it he is entitled to compensation, and there is no reason to assume that F and D never been in the same room, therefore the case is probable, and can proceed”.
In legal language, each word has a relatively strict definition, and it is not always what you’d first assume based on common sense
Of course there is a risk of genocide in a war like this. Doesn’t mean that it’s happening or would happen.
@@tartarus1322 Except of course we know it's happening, we see it happening. The ICJ will render a guilty verdict, however long it takes.
@@adrien5834 tik tok has melted your brain. Civilian casualties are not proof of genocide. It’s not as self evident as you’d like to believe
Israelis just look so badass. 🕶️
Occupation isn't badass.
@@mclovin9165 You are right tell the arabs to go back to arabia.
Finkledick being the pro pally losers champion is all anyone needs to know. He is a complete quack
wtf
@@2460-1 he is a moron. I can dismantle anything he has ever claimed
box.
loner.