Book Review | The Iliad vs. The Song of Achilles
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2021
- Hi, friends! Today, I will be giving my thoughts on The Iliad (Homer) and The Song of Achilles (Madeline Miller). How they are similar, how they're different, my likes and dislikes, etc.
Timestamps:
Overview: 1:24 - 3:50
Likes: 3:54 - 5:11
Dislikes: 5:11 - 14:08
Final Remarks: 14:08 - 15:06
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I love that you feel so passionately about classic literature and are able to support your arguments so well. Now I need to go back and reread the Iliad!
I have a copy you could borrow 😅💗
I don't think that she made Thetis homophobic! Just humanphobic😅
Yeah that's probably accurate. Point being, OG Thetis didn't have an issue with Pat and wanted what was best for him because Achilles cared about him so much and she wanted Achilles to be happy. But you're right, she did have more of a "puny mortal" vibe in this.
Hi! I mention around 13:22 that Patroclus has a line in reference to Achilles that is to the effect of "you know how he is." Well, I found it in the text, so in Book 11 of the Iliad, line 645 or so, Pat is talking to Nestor. Nestor wants him to sit down and stay for a while but Pat replies, "No chair, aged sir beloved of Zeus. You will not persuade me. Honored, and quick to blame, is the man who sent me...Now I go back as messenger to Achilleus, to tell him. You know yourself, aged sir beloved of Zeus, how *he* is; a dangerous man; he might even be angry with one who is guiltless." And the *he* is actually in Italics.
Among all the videos i watched about The Song Of Achilles, this was the best. I agree with most of the things you said. Well you have a point saying that Patroclus was way too soft but i kind of liked the way Miller wrote Patroclus. Oh! and Neoptalemos was not a bad person in the İliad, i am kinda upset that he was soooo bad in the book. Well, thank you for the video :)
Thank you! Yeah, with Pat it sort of just depends on someone's personal opinion so that's totally valid. Glad you enjoyed the video!
Thank you for this video. You expressed some great points ! I could not get into the Song of Achilles. I have not read the illiad , the oddysey, and the aeneid for about 20 years...I felt recently that I am long overdue for a reread and will be doing so Oct to Dec 💗
I'm so glad you liked the video! Yeah, I was super looking forward to TSOA since I heard so many good things and liked the description, but I found myself just missing the Iliad the whole time.
I literally like your critic but remember “The song of Achilles is from Patroclus pov,” and in the book, that are lovers so it's only normal for Patroclus to ignore that “aggressive/egotistic” part of him. The illiad on the other hand is from and outside person point of view like you said. For both books, I would say that it's the same story but like an interpretation from a different author, just like the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. They're the same stories but slightly different narratives.
Yeah, I do see your point about different versions for sure, and normally I would agree, but I found several inconsistencies along the way that were more than just POV things for me. I also definitely understand your point about the lover seeing the best in their beloved even if that isn't what would objectively be true.
@@renaerohde94 Yeah. I literally don’t know what I was saying when I typed that they’re the identically the same, lol. It’s a new age retelling so there suppose to be some difference.
Hi!!! I heard your review and even if I did like Song of Achilles a lot, I do think that you touched some points that I did agree with!
I think that a lot of details are twisted because of Pat's Rose tinted glasses on this one, so him seeing Agamenon or Odyseus and other characters in the light he does is because of the affection he has for Achilles. But that also blind him of Achilles bad habits and actions. And I do agree that the pan and bi erasure is a problem. Or that maybe having a polycule was something that they might have engaged with. That and Pat's physique. I read a line in Miller"s book, while it was in the Trojan war about them getting bulkier and came up to their bodies, but most people might stick with their previous body descriptions.
I dont know if I was as articulate as you in my comment, but I wanna reiterate again that your review was really good! Im glad I jumped in!
So glad you enjoyed the review! Thank you for the input. I've had several people bring up the bit about Patroclus being an unreliable narrator, and I definitely see that, I just had more of an issue when actual events were changed to fit a particular narrative 😅. And I'm glad you enjoyed the book! I know I had a lot of somewhat negative points about it, but I have friends who absolutely adored it and there were many things I liked a lot about it.
@@renaerohde94 It's always good to read about how other people see the same event. I also read the Silence of the Girls, in which her Patroclus was more enjoyable!! Having all these reinterpretations can help paint a better picture of these stories!
I agree with a lot of what you said but I don’t agree with the description of Patroclus. We’re often hyper critical of ourselves and I interpreted his description of himself as such. He doesn’t appreciate himself and I think that translates into his physical description. He acknowledges his strength when working in the medical tents and I think it’s when he dons Achilles armor he finally appreciates himself fully. “I can do this”
Yes, I can see how it would translate that way given the POV. My issue was that to me personally he just seemed so very different that I felt he was depicted as an entirely different character. Some of the dialog and actions, that to me are character defining moments, were completely changed, so that isn't just a self-perception thing, that's a shift of the whole story.
i love the book. I agree with all you said, I saw that there was a lot of people that didn't like patroclus in this version but for me is just a version of him like an AU xD the only "bad" thing is that I read this book first. I know nothing about the illiad just the basic info and basic knowledge on greek mythology. I feel that madeline really loves the boys, she was going to do her thesis about them so I get you girl haha but I also think that she might have this vision of them due to that magical mix I call age + specific socioeconomic background.
side note I'm the only one that saw a possible triad with achilles patroclus and briseide? no? okay TT as a multishippear I was kind of distracted with all the possible options that the statement you said about bad het ,good gay and nothing else clearly escaped me xD
Yes, I feel if I had not read the Iliad first and didn't have that to "compare it to" I would have enjoyed TSOA a lot more for sure, I just happened to really like the Iliad. I like what you said about this being AU Patroclus though, that's a good way of putting it. For your other point about multishipping yeah I feel many love triangles could be solved with polyamory instead of people getting into fights about OTPs lol
any tips on reading the Iliad for beginners?
I would recommend reading the spark notes on it first so that you have a general idea of the story. Translation version is also important. An older translation would likely be more difficult to read, so starting with a more contemporary version is a good bet. Fitzgerald is a good one to start with and the one that is relatively common for college courses it seems. I also really like Lattimore but that is a denser read I would say. It really depends on personal preference though.
Is this video a satire, or something? This is a joke right?
Not a joke. It is the product of a 3,000 word essay I wrote and then trimmed down until it made sense for video length.
Imagine think the Iliad as problematic
Did you watch the video? I said the Iliad was one of my favorite books of all time 😅 but to just write off all of the violence and misogyny wouldn't be correct either. I viewed it through the lens of its time. Saying "the Iliad is problematic" with no context sounds like you're throwing it away without a second thought. Saying "the Iliad contains many elements that are problematic in today's time and culture" is accurate though. Not really sure how to get around that.