Hi Many! I agree with you about a small tendon injury resulting in stronger tissue. For sure, the inflamatory process, celular and nutrient recruitment, etc., does result in more collagen built up and so, a tendon less elastic/flexible but more resistant to tearing forces. However, I don't think a "injury is necessary for progress" aproach is safe or even true. You quoted Adam Ondra, given a explanation that himself had minor injury and fast healling due to very young age, but I believe what you call "injury" in his case, is more of a adaptation process.. Let me make in another terms. Do you think soreness after a workout is injury? It's a inflamatory process involving muscular and tendon tissue, mainly becasue micro tears. What comes after this? Stronger muscle, with more miofibriles, actin/miosin complexes, more collagen deposited and reorganized in the tendons, etc.. Adaptation is a must for evolution and getting stronger and for sure inflamatory process is a part of it. What needs to be separated is the idea of "injury" from "inflamation due to workout". Even small injurys can make a tissue stronger, but it's not necessary. Is like saying a child psycologic trauma is necessary for developing stronger mental capacitys like resilience or whatever.. I think it happens "despite of" instead of "due to". Nobody should pass for a trauma or for an injury. Actually, there is alot of training protocols exactly to build stronger tissues. I end here with suggestion! Check out Tyler's "CH4P" chanel, he has alot of studys about isometric training and loading injuried ligaments, drifting away from the "rest after injury" view. Really think you'll like! Great content as always, Mani! Sorry for the long post
imo yes, soreness after training is injury, too. Muscles want to prevent these kind of injuries in the future - so they get bigger/denser kollagen/more adapted metabolically, so that the same amount of stimulus gets diluted over a bigger diameter and results in less stress in the tissue. This way they don't get injured from the same stress in the future, and can spare the energy that would be needed to heal from another one of these stimuli (if it happened once, there's a good chance it will happen again, evolution thought). They don't "want" to become stronger (which is often a side effect of getting bigger), that's just what we want in our strange minds, because we've stupidly decided to climb a hard route for example :) Keeping a super athletic body takes more energy i.e. calories than keeping the same body in non athletic mode. More enzymes must be synthesized, more nutrients be consumed, in a shorter amount of time, which probably makes it harder to stay healthy long term and keep longevity, the flame that burns stronger burns shorter, essentially. Which is why we all are lazy. If being super athletic had no downsides, we'd be super athletic naturally.
Definitely needed a perspective such as this. Been dealing with chronic joint pain/inflammation in the middle joint of both of my middle fingers for the last year and a half or so. I've done everything I can think of to get it back into shape (short-term+long-term rest, rice buckets, pain-free climbing, more nutritious diet, etc.) but it has yet to go away. Took about 4 months off of climbing recently (from COVID), and am getting back into a new routine now. Hoping I can get rid of it soon. If you got insight on something like this, I'd love to hear it. But either way, thanks so much for the perspective, looking forward to the day I am free of this injury!
As always, uncommon and interesting stuff. When i started climbing, i believed that i could progress through training without getting injuries. The truth is that it is very unlikely. Now i view injuries as part of the game. Is you really want to try to push for physical prowess, you're bound to get injuries.And that's fine, as long as it doesn't prevent you from liking the sport. if you view them as a milestone (especially minor injuries.), you'll enjoy the whole process. it's just the same process as : get destroyed by a good climbing session ->get aches->get easier on those muscles for a few day->get back climbing, but you replace aches with anything else, and days by a longer period. it is also kinda climbing specific, this view that injuries are the end of the world. I was speaking couple of years ago to a friend of mine training hard for triathlon. And he said "of course we get injuries ! All the time ! Mostly in shoulders or inside the tigh. We're pushing ourselves, it would be kinda weird not getting some pain at some point. When that happens, it means that we trained a lot, so we take it easy on the next weeks. But we basically have, almost always, some pain going somewhere." Additionnaly, i usually see quite little injuries in people that train. They get some, but it's usually minor. The live pretty well with it. The worst that i usually see comes from people that aren't training regularly. They always end up in this seemingly unending loop : -gets injured -stops everything for weeks -the pain stays for some weeks, then sorta vanishes -gets back to the walls for a while -gets the same injury, or generally, gets worse than before. And they see it as a big injustice, that drives people mad. I always try to advocate them to dedicate to continue climbing while monitoring the pain. There is oftenly no point in stoping completely, unless that's absolutely necessary. you can even use some injuries (say, fingers) to take time climbing differently (low percentage mix of crimps in boulders. Shorter sessions.) or to train something else (core, biceps...).
Currently dealing with elbow tendonitis, still managed to send my first 7A boulder today, I pretty much share the same view. I had to adapt and have better technique to balance my arm weakness thus make overall progress. It does not keep us from climbing but sure changes the way we climb or train. I had to deal with a partial pulley rupture in the past and really stopped for 5 months but indeed came back way stronger after a few training sessions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Regarding my modest experience, the best way to deal with progression is to really listen to body signals. When it hurts you should go more easy, but clearly not stop climbing, just reduce a bit the intensity. Complete rest does not allow recovery.
Interesting perspective. I think that you might be on to something there. However, one should keep in mind, that certain chronic injuries might come from bad form e.g. when training pullups or other things like not stretching at all and these will not simply go away and might even get worse.
I've started running in the past few years and have got a similar view. I've acquired injuries in the knee, shin, ankle, heel, lower foot, upper foot, and toe, from running, but each one I allowed to heal and each one never returned. Though I was discouraged at how easy it was to get an overuse injury, I was encouraged by how once something healed, it didn't seem to come back. Right now I am running more than ever and have no pains anywhere. I feel as though I conditioned my body for it and got through the growing pains, and am now working on improving my 10km time.
nice and positive! Afterall the legend said it. Getting strong is easy. Getting strong without getting injured is hard. But I guess its part of the game. And with time we find the thin line and manage it :) I like the talk, though I think eventually its better to be close to the line without getting injured..
Mani i completly agree with you. I've got 1 year ago a tendon pain in my middle and ring finger during a one session and i cant hang on this fingers on hangboard for even one second. Then after i rest about 5-6 weeks i came back to training and i was able to hang on this fingers for about 8-9 seconds :D Now i have torn back strap unfortunately but i hope that i will get stronger in this hand after recovery :p
Hi Mani! It is always a pleasure listen you, I love the way you analysed the issue, good job man! How was your recovery from the accident on your ankle? I'm asking you because I broke my talus one month ago and I'm wondering how will be my future in climbing... Probably I'll be afraid of the possibile outcome of a bad falling.
did you get screws? How did it break? I still got a bit of swelling a good 5 years later from a full shear off of the talus neck, and no full range of motion, although I must say it doesn't influence my climbing at all. Depends highly on the location of the fracture and treatment though.
@@ManitheMonkey I didn't get screws fortunately. I fell badly on a ledge during a flash attempt of a short and bouldery route, I had a non-displaced fracture of 3mm of depth... my fear is about falling again on the same foot in the future and I dont' know if I will have a weaker point that could be fracture again for another "normal" fall. I'm 27 and I hope te readjust everything with a good phisiotherapy.
@@GCiova Stay cool! If it was "just" a fracture, your body will make a bone calus and over the years will reabsorb it. It'll probably become a stronger point if you get hit again in the same spot ;) The only way you can mess this up is rushing the healling process and hurting yourself again before the calus was even made.. Nevertheless, even the region becoming stronger, it'll stay a point of pain for over the years, as the structures in your foot are not perfectly alined as if you never had get injuried..
tried a lot of different stuff (stretching, antagonistic stuff, massage,..) nothing really made a significant long term difference (maybe some stuff did but I didn't notice). It's getting better since years though and doesn't influence my climbing at all at this point, and this trip I almost didn't feel it at all (I didn't go as hard as usual though).
English is a weird language, for some reason we don't add ed (which represents the past) to hurt. It hurt or really hurt (for past tense). If current tense, it hurts.
Yeah and why do we build a building, but we don't climb a climbing? Instead we are building a building, and climbing a climb. I think we should say that we are building a built, and are climbing a climt.
In my case, I injured my ankle sport climbing because my belayer gave me a really hard catch, and my feet slammed straight into the wall. Afterwards, I was angry at him and told him he needed to refresh his lead belaying, and the kid had the nerve to get mad at me for telling him this. Fucking unreal. Hard to justify how such a stupid incident will in any way be beneficial.
Hi Many! I agree with you about a small tendon injury resulting in stronger tissue. For sure, the inflamatory process, celular and nutrient recruitment, etc., does result in more collagen built up and so, a tendon less elastic/flexible but more resistant to tearing forces. However, I don't think a "injury is necessary for progress" aproach is safe or even true. You quoted Adam Ondra, given a explanation that himself had minor injury and fast healling due to very young age, but I believe what you call "injury" in his case, is more of a adaptation process..
Let me make in another terms. Do you think soreness after a workout is injury? It's a inflamatory process involving muscular and tendon tissue, mainly becasue micro tears. What comes after this? Stronger muscle, with more miofibriles, actin/miosin complexes, more collagen deposited and reorganized in the tendons, etc.. Adaptation is a must for evolution and getting stronger and for sure inflamatory process is a part of it.
What needs to be separated is the idea of "injury" from "inflamation due to workout". Even small injurys can make a tissue stronger, but it's not necessary. Is like saying a child psycologic trauma is necessary for developing stronger mental capacitys like resilience or whatever.. I think it happens "despite of" instead of "due to". Nobody should pass for a trauma or for an injury. Actually, there is alot of training protocols exactly to build stronger tissues.
I end here with suggestion! Check out Tyler's "CH4P" chanel, he has alot of studys about isometric training and loading injuried ligaments, drifting away from the "rest after injury" view. Really think you'll like!
Great content as always, Mani! Sorry for the long post
imo yes, soreness after training is injury, too.
Muscles want to prevent these kind of injuries in the future - so they get bigger/denser kollagen/more adapted metabolically, so that the same amount of stimulus gets diluted over a bigger diameter and results in less stress in the tissue. This way they don't get injured from the same stress in the future, and can spare the energy that would be needed to heal from another one of these stimuli (if it happened once, there's a good chance it will happen again, evolution thought).
They don't "want" to become stronger (which is often a side effect of getting bigger), that's just what we want in our strange minds, because we've stupidly decided to climb a hard route for example :)
Keeping a super athletic body takes more energy i.e. calories than keeping the same body in non athletic mode. More enzymes must be synthesized, more nutrients be consumed, in a shorter amount of time, which probably makes it harder to stay healthy long term and keep longevity, the flame that burns stronger burns shorter, essentially.
Which is why we all are lazy.
If being super athletic had no downsides, we'd be super athletic naturally.
I just ruptured my A2 earlier this week and I’ve been pretty bummed. This was the boost of spirits I needed, thanks for the wisdom Mani.
Definitely needed a perspective such as this. Been dealing with chronic joint pain/inflammation in the middle joint of both of my middle fingers for the last year and a half or so. I've done everything I can think of to get it back into shape (short-term+long-term rest, rice buckets, pain-free climbing, more nutritious diet, etc.) but it has yet to go away. Took about 4 months off of climbing recently (from COVID), and am getting back into a new routine now. Hoping I can get rid of it soon. If you got insight on something like this, I'd love to hear it. But either way, thanks so much for the perspective, looking forward to the day I am free of this injury!
Das ist eine echt interessante Perspektive. Fühlt sich tatsächlich wie die Antwort auf ein paar wichtige Fragen an. Danke vielmals!!!
As always, uncommon and interesting stuff. When i started climbing, i believed that i could progress through training without getting injuries. The truth is that it is very unlikely. Now i view injuries as part of the game.
Is you really want to try to push for physical prowess, you're bound to get injuries.And that's fine, as long as it doesn't prevent you from liking the sport. if you view them as a milestone (especially minor injuries.), you'll enjoy the whole process.
it's just the same process as : get destroyed by a good climbing session ->get aches->get easier on those muscles for a few day->get back climbing, but you replace aches with anything else, and days by a longer period.
it is also kinda climbing specific, this view that injuries are the end of the world. I was speaking couple of years ago to a friend of mine training hard for triathlon. And he said "of course we get injuries ! All the time ! Mostly in shoulders or inside the tigh. We're pushing ourselves, it would be kinda weird not getting some pain at some point. When that happens, it means that we trained a lot, so we take it easy on the next weeks. But we basically have, almost always, some pain going somewhere."
Additionnaly, i usually see quite little injuries in people that train. They get some, but it's usually minor. The live pretty well with it. The worst that i usually see comes from people that aren't training regularly. They always end up in this seemingly unending loop :
-gets injured
-stops everything for weeks
-the pain stays for some weeks, then sorta vanishes
-gets back to the walls for a while
-gets the same injury, or generally, gets worse than before.
And they see it as a big injustice, that drives people mad. I always try to advocate them to dedicate to continue climbing while monitoring the pain. There is oftenly no point in stoping completely, unless that's absolutely necessary. you can even use some injuries (say, fingers) to take time climbing differently (low percentage mix of crimps in boulders. Shorter sessions.) or to train something else (core, biceps...).
Currently dealing with elbow tendonitis, still managed to send my first 7A boulder today, I pretty much share the same view. I had to adapt and have better technique to balance my arm weakness thus make overall progress. It does not keep us from climbing but sure changes the way we climb or train.
I had to deal with a partial pulley rupture in the past and really stopped for 5 months but indeed came back way stronger after a few training sessions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Regarding my modest experience, the best way to deal with progression is to really listen to body signals. When it hurts you should go more easy, but clearly not stop climbing, just reduce a bit the intensity.
Complete rest does not allow recovery.
Interesting perspective. I think that you might be on to something there. However, one should keep in mind, that certain chronic injuries might come from bad form e.g. when training pullups or other things like not stretching at all and these will not simply go away and might even get worse.
Great perspective on injury Mani. I wonder if it works the same way for other sports as well, like running etc.
I've started running in the past few years and have got a similar view. I've acquired injuries in the knee, shin, ankle, heel, lower foot, upper foot, and toe, from running, but each one I allowed to heal and each one never returned. Though I was discouraged at how easy it was to get an overuse injury, I was encouraged by how once something healed, it didn't seem to come back. Right now I am running more than ever and have no pains anywhere. I feel as though I conditioned my body for it and got through the growing pains, and am now working on improving my 10km time.
nice and positive! Afterall the legend said it. Getting strong is easy. Getting strong without getting injured is hard. But I guess its part of the game. And with time we find the thin line and manage it :) I like the talk, though I think eventually its better to be close to the line without getting injured..
Mani i completly agree with you. I've got 1 year ago a tendon pain in my middle and ring finger during a one session and i cant hang on this fingers on hangboard for even one second. Then after i rest about 5-6 weeks i came back to training and i was able to hang on this fingers for about 8-9 seconds :D Now i have torn back strap unfortunately but i hope that i will get stronger in this hand after recovery :p
Very interesting paradigm shift. It certainly gives a more optimistic view and approach to injuries and progression.
Hi Mani! It is always a pleasure listen you, I love the way you analysed the issue, good job man! How was your recovery from the accident on your ankle? I'm asking you because I broke my talus one month ago and I'm wondering how will be my future in climbing... Probably I'll be afraid of the possibile outcome of a bad falling.
did you get screws? How did it break? I still got a bit of swelling a good 5 years later from a full shear off of the talus neck, and no full range of motion, although I must say it doesn't influence my climbing at all. Depends highly on the location of the fracture and treatment though.
@@ManitheMonkey I didn't get screws fortunately. I fell badly on a ledge during a flash attempt of a short and bouldery route, I had a non-displaced fracture of 3mm of depth... my fear is about falling again on the same foot in the future and I dont' know if I will have a weaker point that could be fracture again for another "normal" fall. I'm 27 and I hope te readjust everything with a good phisiotherapy.
@@GCiova Stay cool! If it was "just" a fracture, your body will make a bone calus and over the years will reabsorb it. It'll probably become a stronger point if you get hit again in the same spot ;)
The only way you can mess this up is rushing the healling process and hurting yourself again before the calus was even made.. Nevertheless, even the region becoming stronger, it'll stay a point of pain for over the years, as the structures in your foot are not perfectly alined as if you never had get injuried..
Very good video
Interesting take, i would be interested what do you do with your climbers elbow, and whats your strategy behind it
tried a lot of different stuff (stretching, antagonistic stuff, massage,..) nothing really made a significant long term difference (maybe some stuff did but I didn't notice). It's getting better since years though and doesn't influence my climbing at all at this point, and this trip I almost didn't feel it at all (I didn't go as hard as usual though).
Hi mani, I have since 3 months this pain (burning feeling) between my shoulder blades, what did you do to get rid of it?
Currently dealing with an injury and I always feel the pain after the session so its hard to regulate during.
English is a weird language, for some reason we don't add ed (which represents the past) to hurt. It hurt or really hurt (for past tense). If current tense, it hurts.
Yeah and why do we build a building, but we don't climb a climbing? Instead we are building a building, and climbing a climb. I think we should say that we are building a built, and are climbing a climt.
@@NotQuiteFirst Climbing a clim* ?
Is there a language that doesn't have these irregularities?
@@Nykinkanava probably languages that were created artificially or rather 'planned' like Esperanto or Solresol.
A counter part would be magnus mitboe, he said that he never had an injury in his fingers and he was and still is strong as hell.
Ok you have explaind it on adam ondra XD, sry haven't watched it to the end at the time i wrote the comment🤣
Daniel Woods also.
Dude you really remind me to Leo Gura, I would say you are the Leo Gura of climbing
In my case, I injured my ankle sport climbing because my belayer gave me a really hard catch, and my feet slammed straight into the wall. Afterwards, I was angry at him and told him he needed to refresh his lead belaying, and the kid had the nerve to get mad at me for telling him this. Fucking unreal. Hard to justify how such a stupid incident will in any way be beneficial.