VST Basket FAIL
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- Опубліковано 7 бер 2023
- A close look at a VST basket and its Certificate of Excellence. We'll check it under the microscope and lap the surface to see where it went wrong and how it scurried past the company's formidable quality-assurance checks. Be ready for a letdown: it's a decent-quality basket but nothing special. TWG has the proof.
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#espresso #coffee #vst
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Lol he’s always cynically upset and sarcastic about everything. 😂
And sometimes plain wrong. Like $8 La Marzocco baskets (advertised as $20 on LM web site). Or standard baskets using the same manufacturing process and IMS or VST (standard ones are punched, not drilled).
Thanks for your content and attention to detail. We home baristas appreciate it!
Its always great to see objective in depth reviews that call out shady business practices. It would be interesting to see more baskets from VST being scrutinized like this. Maybe these issues are very common, and VST is trying to improve their bottom line at the cost of their quality assurance.
Hello Wired Gourmet. I love your videos, but I have a small critique for this particular one.
The VST basket description is as follows:
"100% of the holes are measured on each filter for min. /max area and diameter range limits with an accuracy of +/- 20 µm. (Individual QC report is supplied with each filter) All holes are measured for roundness, placement, square area and blocked holes The hole pattern is centered up to +/- 1.0 mm and the placement is oriented for even suction over the entire puck."
Now, I love your attention to detail, but nothing of what you tested disproves their claim. They claim their holes are even, round, equally spaced and have a fixed size, which is verified (according to the report). You haven't compared this to other manufacturer's baskets, which could have wild inconsistencies, maybe the cheapest ones leading to uneven flow and extraction.
You also haven't tested their actual claims, only what the basket visually looks like. What I would like to see tested, and I'm not sure how difficult this is to do, is if their claims on that particular basket you tested are correct. Is the surface area of all openings within the claimed margin? Are all the holes indeed spaced evenly within the claimed margin? Etc.
Whether their claims improve the quality of coffee is debatable, that's not what I'm arguing here. Taste matters the most, as you have repeatedly mentioned in many videos. They are only selling precision of the hole size and placement, which is in no way guaranteed in regular baskets, but it also might not matter that much.
One very good point you made / thing you discovered is that the finishing process should be better. The leftover metal flaps on the holes should not be there on such expensive baskets.
Another good point is that for a home user there's is little reason to buy these baskets, when, as you mentioned, the cheaper 8-9 Euro baskets offer a comparable end result.
The only reason I can think of for buying these as a home user is if for you, the extra cost means avoiding any headaches. You of all people should know how quality can vary wildly from batch to batch on most products. The 8-9 Euro baskets might be good today and worse tomorrow. You could even recommend these to two people, one gets a good one and one gets a bad one. With VST you have some quality control being done, at least in theory (this has yet to be tested, as I mentioned).
Just to be clear, before anyone starts attacking me: I am not saying VST baskets are worth the price, just that this video does not disprove their claims.
I'm so pleased I saw this video. I was going to shell-out £45 for a VST basket, but I bought a much-cheaper IMS basket, instead. Seems fine, and half the price.
Just tested it, even my iPhone makes better pictures of the holes than the included picture with VST baskets. It is really ridiculous. What is the point of including such a picture
That is a picture from the camera of the tool inspecting the basket, a camera which is created specifically to measure the hole size and possibly difference between them / consistency. You will notice that the focus of the picture is the light coming through the holes, because that is what is needed for measurement, and not how pretty the basket looks. Of course your iPhone makes better pictures, because your iPhone's camera has a completely different purpose.
It would make no sense to equip the tool with a camera which creates amazingly pretty pictures, since that would be a waste, just like it would make no sense to take pictures of the basket with a separate camera, since that would not only add to the cost and complexity of the whole procedure, but it would also be irrelevant, as it would not be the picture based on which the measurement was made.
This comment is not made to justify VST's prices or anything, it's just to point out that criticizing the picture quality is an irrelevant argument.
I'm getting into espresso and will probably soon be buying a LELIT machine, complete with IMS baskets. The dealer offers VST (he swears by them).
I don't think I'll listen to him, and decide : BOYCOT for VST ( does he get a good margin on their sales ❓🤣) .
Thank you for your video 🙏
Thanks!
Looking forward to that single dose filter video!
Superbly Fun, Superbly Done, Very Enjoyable Information.
Very nice, thank you very much!
Love the channel and the depth you go into. I wasn’t sure how to message but would love your thoughts / a video on the Weber Workshops Spring Clean.
When I got my Breville Dual Boiler and a VST as well I noticed the basket looked similar, so took out my macro lens and did some really close shots and then changed the contrast and overlayed them. Hole quality and spacing was the same, the only real difference from the stock BDB and the 18g VST basket was the extra 42 holes around the perimeter of the bottom, a 6.3% extra area. So that probably warrants the slightly thicker stock they use. But from what I've heard from others, older stock BDB baskets were different, and worse. Breville has done a lot of stealth upgrades over the years on the BDB with the last round of changes just last year.
But then, IMS and VST are old news. Now it's all about Wafo, Swork and Weber laser cut edge to edge and Waco's patterned baskets, at like 6-8 times the price of VST.
I am very much looking forward to your single basket video! There is none available for my Robot but still :-)
Another Awesome video. 👌
Interesting stuff!
My E&b IMS are all the same weight, Vst wild variations. Thanks for the videos always enjoy
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing. Great review. I subscribe.
Great videos brother👍👍
I have been trying to get a definitive answer on ECM/Profitec double baskets (dosage weight)? Any information on that and how that stack up to the IMS?
I have a Decent DE1 machine and some Decent accessories including their magnetic dosing funnel. Some baskets are not very magnetic compared to others and that's a factor for me.
Still planning on a how to clean your machine without Cafiza? I’m very interested.
Holy crap 35 euro for some pressed sheet metal.
I got a new ECM machine at the start of the year to replace on old machine on which I used a VST basket. The ECM stock basket appears to be good quality, based on previous videos in this series it might have even been made by VST. When I compare the ECM to my VST it does not appear to be finished as good quality.
I feel the shots pull a bit better in the VST compared to stock.
Can I taste a difference? Nope not a chance in hell I could tell them apart!
I am I bothered about spending the money? Nope, it was a once off purchase and it made me happy.
I understand and agree with the point in the video about shady marketing. But people aren’t blowing their life savings buying them.
tks. i was considering VST.. i will buy IMS instead
Mhmm same here.. used a VST for a few shots... changed to IMS.. much better part quality.. not sure if it makes realy different in the output.. but money vs. quality ;-) so im with you
Just got an IMS basket this week, and the wider bottom allows for an easy fill, but after watching this I wonder, does the taper have a purpose as the puck is more watery now?
Did you increase dose? Otherwise you probably just have more air above the puck than before
@@RegrinderAlert A double espresso requires about 18-20 grams of ground coffee for optimal extraction.
@@innerlocus Not necessarily but that’s besides the point. Your new basket has a different shape and therefore the same dose might result in a higher headspace.
@@innerlocus You want 2mm space between the puck and shower screen. Dose volumetrically
for me i used IMS basket comes with my bianca v3 coffee taste was perfect and how it's should taste (as a home coffee roaster ) , then i bought VST 20g basket and used the same batch of coffee, wasted over 200g and still taste bad. i feel like it over extraction or something. i got my Difluid r2 i will see the difference today
Back after test ,
i VST i got higher extraction % , and note taste hard to feel . overall worse coffee.
in Difluid there's golden point box . with IMS basket easy to be in the box and control little what you need more body or more extraction with grind size or temp whatever.
with VST very hard to be in the golden point extraction you need course grind and it will be more watery . it's decent for 1:4 ratio even with this ratio IMS better.
Looking at all the money I spent on VST baskets… I did notice my shots ran faster when I switched to them. So finer grind required. Possibly better flavour due to grind size?
That certainly is possible, sure. Or possibly worse flavor due to overextraction. So many variables... :)
@@wiredgourmet I may go back and test my ECM baskets that came with the machine.
Its relative. Comparing aftermarket baskets to aftermarket baskets u will be unimpressed. Check the basket of an old delonghi or gaggia and the defects are everywhere some of the holes arent even punched through. Lm baskets and breville 58mm baskets are supposed to be much better. As for whether they make a difference its been documented extensively that vst baskets and other high hole count baskets extract more tds and thus use less coffee to make a similar strength. In a commercial environment reducing coffee by 1 or 2 grams every double is a significant saving.
I mean, they're not in hand, but the IMS competition in the video sure look like they're made to a higher standard. Does that affect the coffee quality? Not by as much as they're asking for, probably, but I bet it'll last forever.
Can someone maybe write down the exact product code for the E&B Lab bastker at 6:44? For example I can see the IMS is B702Th24.5M but can't see the E&B Lab. Maybe @The Wired Gourmet?
That would be B702TFH22NT Slightly shorter and wider than 22.5m, so appr same capacity
@@wiredgourmet Thank you very much for the answer!
I just bought a 3bombers basket and puck screen , this brand is doing some good coffee stuff so i cant wait to get it
I have vst baskets of every capacity and none of them look like yours. I bought all except one from vst official site.
04:55 😂🤣
Okay sooo what’s going on with the video editing at 2:50 when he rotated the basket to prove it’s the same basket under the microscope. You can clearly see that the vst stamping skips back as he rotates the basket.
That’s weird
Wow... that's by far the worst VST I've ever seen.
I guess I can't wait for you to test the wafo basket ^^
Our good friend Lance Hedrick says he will test the WAFOs and WW Unibaskets, so keep an eye on his channel :)
This vst basket remind me a lot of apple products, naked robotic core, precision, attention to detail.
Then you get it in hand and it’s just as warm as any other excrement sandwich 🤷🏻♂️
Apple is genuinely high quality
@@atticustay1 sure, but not unique or special in any way, with plenty of flaws. Not special
promo sm
The whole point of that stupid image is to give the illusion of a 'scientific' measurement. Precision baskets are snake oil pure and simple. I bought one for my Gaggia because I was starting out making espresso at home. I got really good at pulling shots on my Classic and once you nail the technique, well where do you go from there? I know, time for a Precision Basket. I spent months telling myself that my shots were cleaner and sweeter because of that basket over the bog standard Gaggia factory basket. Eventually I realized it was totally subjective and there really was no difference. IMS baskets are irrelevant, they are the after-market equivalent of go-fast strips. When I upgraded to my La Spaziale Lucca A53 I just stayed with the factory baskets and I couldn't be happier. I'm sure in the past some manufacturers supplied sub-par baskets but not in today's market. Home espresso makers are just too expensive to be let down by a rookie mistake like defective baskets.
The espresso industry reminds me so much of the old 90s hifi industry where everyone got bored with consistently good and suffered "upgradeitis" which leads to a gullible attitude to any "snake oil" salesmen promising a better experience if only you buy his special product.
@@Thetache My favorite of the 2020's hifi/personal audio industry are spec-chasers. Amps with output impedance so low it'd silence the most sensitive tweeter balanced armature, enough power rating to drive small speakers, digital volume control off an infinitely scrolling potentiometer to eliminate channel imbalance with two independent channels for optimal channel balancing and matching... Annnnd it's so huge, awkward, and power hungry that it doesn't fit anywhere. As the Wired Gourmet would say, hard to live with.
@@Thetache That's exactly what it reminds me of too; the audiophile industry :)
@@cheyannei5983 Monster Cables. Conductors as thick as your thumb because transients ect...
Things that are totally debunked in coffee science:
- Precision baskets
- Grinders that distribute the coffee in the basket(all people now single dosing in dosing cup)
- "preinfusion is always good" myth
- Bigger boiler is always better
- 20kg tamping
- Leveling tools (WDT & level tamp only matters)
And let's not forget, higher extraction yield = better flavor :)
@@wiredgourmet that's right
Refractometers say nothing, taste only matters
Not all of that is "debunked" myths. There is a definite difference between some baskets, it's just that some OEMs source higher quality products than others to start with. IMS is still a "precision" basket. All people are not single dosing into dosing cups. Many single dose grinders are designed to grind directly into a portafilter, and if that works for you it's pointless to grind into a cup, since WDT will help in either case. Preinfusion tends to be very helpful in a lot of situations, and by far, most machines do some form of preinfusion whether you know it or like it anyway. A bigger boiler is rarely worse, put it that way. I'll give you the tamping and leveling tools though. :)
Loved your content, awesome as always. Have you considered uploading short video contents on TikTok or UA-cam Shorts? I think your contents will be well loved and you'll find success as well.
Cheers