I would assume that the watery start is due to the water content in the pre wet filter. The air between coffee grounds gets pushed through first followed by the water and thus the air pushes out the water from the paper…
Yeah at least a gram or two of water in there. I guess you could tamp down the filter, squeezes out the h2o and wipe the bottom of the basket with a clean microfiber. That should probably remover 90% of it but make sure to wipe the tamper. Tamping with a wet tamper is just one step above dropping the portafilter full of grinds. Two steps maybe, there dropping the dosing cup too. Not sure where not lockong the PF tight comes in. I once blew the gasket haha. Steam and coffee everywhere. I had just stopped leaning in to observe the extraction, would habe been right in the face! (Fresh gaskets people! 1 year max!).
@@derricktyler3577 Me too, with a long bloom pre-infusion for light roasts. I seem to have less channeling -- though of course the filter might just mask it. But the papers (AeroPress) top and bottom keep the portafilter and shower screens clear of blockages.
FOLLOWUP video here: ua-cam.com/video/yYxElo9YF2c/v-deo.html ERRATA. 1: at around 03:32 I show some water coming through. Later in the vid I speculated that it's left over from rinsing. I unintentionally cut that comment while editing. I don't think it's a big enough mistake to warrant deleting and re-uploading, but just keep it in mind. 2: I neglected to mention that the paper speeds up the shot by a few seconds, so I adjusted my grind to keep the shot times constant. TWG regrets the errors!
Should've compare like this: 1. standard extraction no paper; 2. paper filter: same grind size, adjusted extraction time for same yield; 3. paper filter: adjusted grind size for standard extraction time, same yield. 4. optional paper filter: standard extraction with paper that result a larger yield. When i refer to "yield" i mean "liquid in the cup", my english plays tricks on my mind.
I've never had water coming out from the paper, one thing I do is pass with a cloth the bottom of the portafilter, via capillarity the excess water gets sucked out
Love the detailed breakdown as always. You mentioned in your comment that you were grinding finer to match shot times. Pretty much every time I've done this I've preferred the unfiltered shot. However, when I dial both in by taste I tend to prefer the paper filtered one most of the time and those shots are always at least 3-5 seconds faster if not more.
Interesting. I’ve been using paper filters for some time, but still dial in by time. When dialing in by taste, are you generally keeping grind size closer to the setting you would use when not using a paper filter?
I just started experimenting with paper filter at the bottom of my portafilter. I had to really decrease grind size to get the same yield/time ratio I have been using on our favorite beans for the last year or so. Although we tend to drink latte’s, providence intervened as I couldn’t drink anything other than clearish liquids for a few days, so stuck with Espresso and Americanos for my tests. Once I got the grind under control, I did seem to get some positive results, although I suspect maybe undetectable when used in milk drinks. My puck prep routine has grown to the point that it is getting a little embarrassing, so I likely will skip the paper filter (and the newly added puck top screen) going forward. Things were pretty dialed before I added the screen and started experimenting with filter paper, so I may just drop back some and make more of our old reliable lattes instead. Thanks for taking the time to produce the video.
Could you say something about the roast level of the coffee you were using? My impression is that most of the recent innovations (flow control, billet baskets, matrix shower screens) are to do with extracting the claimed taste subtleties available from very lightly roasted beans.
I'm a long time coffee fan, I have an expensive machine and I learned to repair it myself if needed... I'm sceptical about those paper filters cause I do love every note in my coffee, the bitter, the sour, but I certainly love the oils, the texture and the body... and also, those filters are not very ecofriendly anyway... When I think of all the fabrication process, the transportation, trees being cut... so I really see no advantage to do that. All the youtubers that tested it live on their channel... seem to just say that it has a little less bitterness and sourness... and definitely less body... and I do think the same ... Like they said, it just makes it more accessible for the mainstream, cause it's a little sweeter... Anyways... Thanks again !! xx
Once again a very rare voice of reason on UA-cam, daring to challenge what everyone else is saying/repeating. I have never thought about extracting more not necessarily being better. I personally love a milk based coffee with chocolate sweetness and acidity coming through. Probably quite a traditional and out of fashion taste. But I am starting to find through my own home testing that the dusty tapered baskets hiding in the back of the cupboard can produce better shots for my taste buds than the straight sided flat bottomed baskets with paper on the bottom. Perhaps that is more for people who like light roasted beans with no milk.
I love this stance of, “if it tastes good, it IS good.” I will concede that the science is clear that extraction is increased when using paper bottom filters. However, this may or may not improve end taste. Although I have a great ECM machine, nice grinder, and most importantly buy nice coffee, I agree that taste is relative ultimately brings the side-note that we shouldn’t gatekeep or shame others from more inexpensive modes of consumption. Also, I would listen to a true crime podcast of your voice. You might have another calling lol. Great video!
I started to experiment with these. At first I used a 2" punch to make filters out of Chemix. I pre-wet the filters because they say when making pour overs you have to get rid of the paper taste (never tested that, or even if it is correct). I then bought filters from Good Brothers to match my 58mm basket and the taste was different, more balanced. The 2" filters JUST cover the holes in the basket and I wonder if during grinding the paper for my cut filters shifts a bit and I am getting an 'uneven' paper/non-paper filtration.
Great vids as always, you always capture a good angle. Some complain about the smug tone, but a lot of it is reacting to the ridiculous levels of hype about the smallest innovations. I do wish your taste preferences were less traditional, but it seems good nonetheless
Been enjoying your no nonsense, no hype videos on espresso. I’ve also wanted to try using papers because, well, even people who seem reasonable, say it should be good or at least interesting. I’m quite new to espresso but have watched all the usual suspects and read all the usual blogs. I use the Cafelat robot and with a bit of preinfusion, I can make decent espresso but anytime I try using papers (commercial or handcut Hario) under the puck, no matter the grind or other variables, I get an acrid taste. I can make that bitter or sour but always sharp, acrid and aggressive. Obviously I should just give up but I find it a bit frustrating that I can’t get anything even really drinkable using this method. Were you able to get something drinkable in your experiments, even if thin, and do you have any similar experiences that might explain what I’m getting? Many thanks!
James Hoffman suggests that using a paper filter significantly speeds up the flow rate, thereby increasing the yield over a timed shot. Was your experience similar?
I expect the paper filters to block if not all most of cafestol and kahweo. This would help people with heart and cholesterol issues. What are your thoughts on that?
I didn’t like paper filters with the niche. It highlighted more of the unpleasant flavours the niche brings out of the coffee. However I very much like the results with my Eureka SD. I think the taste is more intense if you can say it that way. Also shot times vary. But in my experience you can simply grind a bit finer without increasing channeling much or choking the machine. Also the puck is visually very even wetted. No real distinguishable darker wet spots or at least they are very evenly distributed.
What I have found in my experiments is, the layered puck (more extracted at the bottom) occurred more with pre-wetting the filter. It's like water pre-extracts the coffee or something, but as you say, we have no idea what's really going on there.
How you keep your machine clean after each shot? You run a small amount of water by the grouphead after each shot? And wipe? Do you ever back flush the machine with just water no chemicals? I saw some of your other videos but was not sure how is the workflow to keep it clean and prevent using descaling solution. Thank you!
I have to disagree with your comment about how much a grinder / burr set affects taste. If I put the same bean in my nautilus vs my backup vario the difference is so notable that a blind taster may even think they’re different beans. We’re not talking about subtle nuances only a coffee geek will notice here, at least with light roast, we’re talking about major differences.
Does papper filter on top works just the same as metalic puck screen? When I pull multiple shots it’s just frustrating to rinse the screen all the time. I’ll rather use papper filter on top instead.
excellent and intuitive description with good arguments against all that nerdy and stylish attempts to re-novate one of the most classic drinks mankind knows: coffee or particularly e s p r e s s o . Most of the gadgetry is for tea lovers or filter fans: overly complicated proceedings with more and more muted tastes as a mediocre result. No one ever would come around the corner and to that for example with a classic single malt whisky.
I have also read that, there are some studies to back it up, but the % it drops those levels is a question I haven't found a good answer for.... I use them anyway, why not
Decent XL with Weber HG2 and a Weber Unibasket - basket took some wrangling to get dialed but as for paper? When my initial bunch of 50 that shipped with basket are used I won’t be continuing with paper - a screen on top however has been a go to for past year - really did not seem any difference with filter in taste terms but it makes for a clean knock but waiting for a couple of mins while I steam milk and waiting for air to rise gives time for puck to knock clean usually sans paper - good video and content!
There appear to be potential health benefits of using paper filters which remove harmful cafestol and has been associated with lower LDL cholesterol. The studies are not conclusive but were good enough to convince me to add a paper filter.
I don't use the paper filters all the time but will use one or two if I have some older coffee and having trouble slowing it down or to tone done some of the acidity. For dark roast I like the thicker flavor without the paper.
I have tried this experiment myself not with expresso but with Moka pot I tried a huge variation from v60 to traditional Coffee brew Aeropress Etc and came to the conclusion that basic drip coffee paper filter work best for my Moka pot.
My understanding was the paper helped remove some type of chemical or poison kind of thing that researches found when extracting the espresso. Nothing noted about flavor. I can't recall the specific name of the offending molecules right now though.
I have brought some filters but haven’t tried them yet. I did buy a puck screen and I think that’s helping. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on those. I’ve noticed a little more consistency. The pucks are quite unusually firm too. .
I’ve been using cheap eBay 58mm filter paper for the last 3 weeks 2 cups every day. I use a 20g IMS precision basket with nanotech coating. There was no need to change grind size but I need to WDT more carefully to ensure a good even tamp. It does seem to be a little thinner and less crème, but overall the taste actually is a little more intense and bolder for me, which is a good thing. I should add the best thing about it is no more coffee grind in the cup!
I use 2 paper filters at the bottom and 1 over the coffee. The 2 paper filters are creating more pressure and better coffee, in my case. P.S. My coffee machine costs 20 euros on 2nd hand (60 euros if brand new).
I hope this doesn't make me one of those guys you mentioned (emotional need to seem smarter) - but I started testing paper filters under the puck about 20 years ago (I cut them to fit with a fiskars circle cutter). In my case, I was trying to see if I could get espresso with less of those oils that I suspected might be the causing elevated BP. I still try the paper now and then but prefer my espresso without it. Totally agree with your description. I was surprised to discover that it's become a thing now and you can buy papers in sizes for espresso.
Pulled because I'm planning a better one covering brew and espresso. For espresso machine water / mineral issues, see this one: ua-cam.com/video/zEvGbvrkDvo/v-deo.html
I've done testing with my friends and the paper filtered espresso won unilaterally. The paper filtered shots had a lighter but creamier texture, longer lasting crema and very similar tasting notes, just with reduced bitterness. I don't pre-rinse my filters. I worry that the moisture will wick into the puck and cause the grounds to expand and start infusing. I wonder if it's something that helps tidy up the shots from people with cheaper equipment. I was using a modded Dedica (hotter water) and a K-Plus grinder. Decent equipment, but two leagues below your setup. The papers I use are also very thin and not as robust as most of the filters you tested, closest might be a stock aeropress filter. I can't even overcome the added shot resistance of a Chemex cut out!
I'm a bit confused. You showed some espresso-specific filter papers by Good Brothers and then compared a bunch of filter papers designed for pour-overs... but didn't include the Good Brothers filters in the comparison? This seems odd.
@@wiredgourmet it's a term also used in laboratory filter papers where there are various filter papers with different pore size for e.g. 120 micron, 240 microns etc to allow particles of certain diameter to pass through, which i imagine can also affect your coffee taste. But what is shown in the video are just filter paper brands instead of the more specific detail. But then Of course, as long as it taste good then it's good.
I think the type of coffee is very important when testing paper filters. Light roasts can benefit from having a paper filter and its a waste of time with dark roasts
in my experience it makes light roasts much more enjoyable, balancing out some of the sourness that can occur. tests have shown that given the wet filter, and that water tends to go where it's wet, you get a more even extraction around the edge of the puck. that would explain why I'd get less of a sour shot, given less under extraction at the edge of the puck. however, I do not enjoy the filter, once the roasts get darker, or are more medium / classic italian type of roasts. I guess the bit of under extraction you get from a less even extraction around the outside of the puck, helps give the shot more complexity. with a filter those beans taste more bland to me in the cup. I'm not sure what beans you used, but I know that the niche in terms of flavour profile is more skewed towards a classic / italian type of shot, maybe that might be the issue why you're not seeing a benefit. my experience is with a mignon oro.
I think a stainless steel fine mesh puck on top is better it keeps the group head cleaner and stops channelling though the puck and paper what's in it bleach to make the paper white and probably other chemicals 🤔
I love watching TWG bottomless shots! Not sure anyone makes them look so good. However, when trying a new equipment or technique, it might be a good idea to be flexible over recipe and to re-dial from scratch with the new method... That said, I did all that but reached the same conclusion anyway: less enjoyable (to me) narrower-focussed espresso. I ended up with an obviously different extraction though: no watery start, about 10% less needed coffee for similar yield and strength, and shockingly uniformly extracted spent pucks. One flaw here could be using the E&B Labs Competition "Flat" basket? Flat is a misnomer for these because they are not flat at all when, or after, containing anything like the usual 9 bars! And used convex baskets are not great for prep, flat tamped density uniformity, or for use with papers. I wonder if the watery start came from leaving the rinsed basket wet, or from having to excessively wet the paper to get it to conform to the basket, but either way I don't think it's an asset or something that others who regularly use papers put up with? To really do this experiment justice probably needed a much heavier stronger (and flatter) basket, so the paper can easily do it's job properly with less compromise. A VST, Pullman or LM is much heavier and thicker and stays much flatter during, and after, use, so would be a better starting point. I've gone off E&B Labs Competition Flat completely as annoyingly barely-magnetic puck-traps, and have to say it's VST or LM for me now (unless one day I get to try one of those funky and horrifically expensive new super-baskets and find it brings enough to the table)... And don't even get me started on IMS fashion screens... Anyhow, keep it up!
I use the infinity filter system. More like a lasagne. One filter then 3 grams of coffee, then another filter plus 3 grams and so on The results? Takes 3 days for extraction but its 0.00001% tastier so this is now my daily workflow. Had to buy 2 more machines mind
The mere idea of trying to improve something as rich and complex as a successful espresso shot by running it through a paper filter seems weird to me. It’s overcomplicating things just for the sake of it, I think.
I believe you're seeing water that is pre-loaded into the paper, so you are essentially diluting the espresso by the x gram of water you added into the paper. The counter here, would be that a dry paper load would thereby be changing/intensifying the flavor by removing a little bit of the pre-infusion - up to the drinker if he enjoys the first 5 or 15 seconds of the pre-infusion drip, and I suppose the drinker should do the Salami to understand that notion. As for the papers themselves, they are probably helpful for those who tamper and/or dose incorrectly. I suspect the paper acts as a pressure distributor throughout the incorrectly dosed and/or tamped puck. I'm not a chemist - so I cannot opine regarding the paper's ability to filter out the espresso grind insolubles - at which point one could argue this exercise is simply to drink an intensified v60s with the paper of choice.
You get a watery start because you used rinsed filters the pressure push the water out those you get a watery start… We use dry filters not wet. It’s already been tested that the amount of paper is irrelevant both in espresso and aeropress as the proportions are quite low so it’s not necessary to rinse them.
Coffee is sometimes difficult to describe. I once watched Lance Hendrick, a very gifted UA-camr, suggest he tasted "yellow" during one cupping session. I wonder what "yellow" tastes like. Banana? Lemon? Custard? Who knows. 🤣
Never tried paper filters. Had a gut feeling they did something along the lines of what you found. If people just said, "I like a cleaner espresso that's like a strong V60." I'd get it, but they say it's 'better' when I have the not dissimilar preferences to you with my shots. Cheers!
Honestly that's been my feeling since I got deeper into coffee as a hobby. Lots of people seem to put their preferences and routines out there as objectively 'better' when both are mostly down to personal taste.
6:00 it is difficult to criticize those that you judge as "trying to be too clever" without sounding like you are trying to be too clever yourself... as I now find...
Mouth feel of espresso is about the coffee oils in the beverage. So using a paper filter on espresso is like saddling a horse at its belly. But who am i to ask why people want to use an espresso machine to produce filter coffee?
Preinf = 1g out. The same in every case. Then I start the timer. Very repeatable and consistent saturation. Feels like 10-15 secs lag, like I said. What, you figured I hadn't thought this all through? You must be new around here.
@@wiredgourmet I also forgot to point out you don't even test the extraction levels. Which if you have done as much research as you facetiously claim you have is something that would have been found as the point of using paper filters. You change the whole timing of the experiment every test. You also have ABSOLUTELY ZERO OBJECTIVE DATA. All of your results are purely arrogantly subjective. Google how to do science.
I'm glad, the last thing I want is more filters to buy. I already run out of V60 sometimes. Espresso is great, all I need is beans. And I can knock out a shot in 2 minutes. Since I installed a dimmer and began doing preinsfusion and lever-ish profiles... man it's been good. Everd shot better than what I could ever do without pressure profiling. Just amazingly fantastic haha. Compliments left and right. And you are right now that my Americanos are so delish, I have not been making many cups of V60... I often use the same beans for both anyway. So higher extraction... I can just grind finer and preinfuse longer... raise the temp from 94 to 95... Also I do like it filterless, a bit gooey thick. Another thing for fancy people :) I'm not fancy. I take Boron carbide bits to my lovely little Italian machine. I'm a caveman. 1 dollar dimmer shipped direct from China for 10 cents by boat. The good stuff. If it comes with a manual you're buying fancy electronics. I recommend slapping a dimmer in to anyone with typical, GCP-esque single boiler machine. My god the taste!!! Fk fancy grinders, seasoning, temps other than 94C and levelers. All you need is a wdt, a dimmer and a grinder that isn't total sh*t. No need to spend thousands. Two friends have 3k machines, hand built. They both took notes the second time I made shots. As long as the machine is capable of temp stability the rest barely matters. Except of course beans. Sh*t beans, sh*t coffee. I spent less than a grand on everything, including tampers etc... and the chmapagne that donated a cork for my extremely stylish WDT. I stained the cork walnut and gave it a clear coat because I'm a maniac. I dare anyone to find an Anna PID that's more fancy than mine. Heck I got a rosewood handle, made a rosewood steam know and laminated the plastic drip tray in mahagony. Even got a bypass switch to select between dimmer and full pressure. Schematics on homebarista if someone want to try it. Kinda fun. Rambling maniac signing off.
I would assume that the watery start is due to the water content in the pre wet filter. The air between coffee grounds gets pushed through first followed by the water and thus the air pushes out the water from the paper…
Yeah at least a gram or two of water in there. I guess you could tamp down the filter, squeezes out the h2o and wipe the bottom of the basket with a clean microfiber. That should probably remover 90% of it but make sure to wipe the tamper. Tamping with a wet tamper is just one step above dropping the portafilter full of grinds. Two steps maybe, there dropping the dosing cup too. Not sure where not lockong the PF tight comes in. I once blew the gasket haha. Steam and coffee everywhere. I had just stopped leaning in to observe the extraction, would habe been right in the face! (Fresh gaskets people! 1 year max!).
This.
I agree. I use paper filters top and bottom, but dry and have never had a watery start. I use the papers primarily to keep everything cleaner.
Agreed, easy enough to rule in or out with a dry filter test.
@@derricktyler3577 Me too, with a long bloom pre-infusion for light roasts. I seem to have less channeling -- though of course the filter might just mask it. But the papers (AeroPress) top and bottom keep the portafilter and shower screens clear of blockages.
FOLLOWUP video here: ua-cam.com/video/yYxElo9YF2c/v-deo.html ERRATA. 1: at around 03:32 I show some water coming through. Later in the vid I speculated that it's left over from rinsing. I unintentionally cut that comment while editing. I don't think it's a big enough mistake to warrant deleting and re-uploading, but just keep it in mind. 2: I neglected to mention that the paper speeds up the shot by a few seconds, so I adjusted my grind to keep the shot times constant. TWG regrets the errors!
Should've compare like this:
1. standard extraction no paper;
2. paper filter: same grind size, adjusted extraction time for same yield;
3. paper filter: adjusted grind size for standard extraction time, same yield.
4. optional paper filter: standard extraction with paper that result a larger yield.
When i refer to "yield" i mean "liquid in the cup", my english plays tricks on my mind.
I've never had water coming out from the paper, one thing I do is pass with a cloth the bottom of the portafilter, via capillarity the excess water gets sucked out
PROBABLY U R THE ONLY☝️ I TRUST WHEN COMES TO COFFEE EXPERT THANKS AGAIN
Very underrated channel. Not as flashy as the other ones but with a much different (and down to earth) take.
Yes, no close ups of face, no slurping, no promotion... what's not to like
Love the detailed breakdown as always. You mentioned in your comment that you were grinding finer to match shot times. Pretty much every time I've done this I've preferred the unfiltered shot. However, when I dial both in by taste I tend to prefer the paper filtered one most of the time and those shots are always at least 3-5 seconds faster if not more.
This. Much better taste if filtered shot runs faster.
Interesting. I’ve been using paper filters for some time, but still dial in by time.
When dialing in by taste, are you generally keeping grind size closer to the setting you would use when not using a paper filter?
I just started experimenting with paper filter at the bottom of my portafilter. I had to really decrease grind size to get the same yield/time ratio I have been using on our favorite beans for the last year or so. Although we tend to drink latte’s, providence intervened as I couldn’t drink anything other than clearish liquids for a few days, so stuck with Espresso and Americanos for my tests. Once I got the grind under control, I did seem to get some positive results, although I suspect maybe undetectable when used in milk drinks.
My puck prep routine has grown to the point that it is getting a little embarrassing, so I likely will skip the paper filter (and the newly added puck top screen) going forward. Things were pretty dialed before I added the screen and started experimenting with filter paper, so I may just drop back some and make more of our old reliable lattes instead.
Thanks for taking the time to produce the video.
Love this experiment. Thank you for sharing. And that is the most beautiful espresso machine I've seen outside of Europe.
Could you say something about the roast level of the coffee you were using? My impression is that most of the recent innovations (flow control, billet baskets, matrix shower screens) are to do with extracting the claimed taste subtleties available from very lightly roasted beans.
I'm a long time coffee fan, I have an expensive machine and I learned to repair it myself if needed... I'm sceptical about those paper filters cause I do love every note in my coffee, the bitter, the sour, but I certainly love the oils, the texture and the body... and also, those filters are not very ecofriendly anyway... When I think of all the fabrication process, the transportation, trees being cut... so I really see no advantage to do that. All the youtubers that tested it live on their channel... seem to just say that it has a little less bitterness and sourness... and definitely less body... and I do think the same ... Like they said, it just makes it more accessible for the mainstream, cause it's a little sweeter... Anyways... Thanks again !! xx
Once again a very rare voice of reason on UA-cam, daring to challenge what everyone else is saying/repeating. I have never thought about extracting more not necessarily being better.
I personally love a milk based coffee with chocolate sweetness and acidity coming through. Probably quite a traditional and out of fashion taste. But I am starting to find through my own home testing that the dusty tapered baskets hiding in the back of the cupboard can produce better shots for my taste buds than the straight sided flat bottomed baskets with paper on the bottom. Perhaps that is more for people who like light roasted beans with no milk.
Adding the paper filter helps to reduce Cholesterol levels, that's a big advantage for a lot of people!
Agree. I like the oils in coffee. Paper at the bottom produces noticeably thinner-bodied shots.
I love this stance of, “if it tastes good, it IS good.” I will concede that the science is clear that extraction is increased when using paper bottom filters. However, this may or may not improve end taste.
Although I have a great ECM machine, nice grinder, and most importantly buy nice coffee, I agree that taste is relative ultimately brings the side-note that we shouldn’t gatekeep or shame others from more inexpensive modes of consumption.
Also, I would listen to a true crime podcast of your voice. You might have another calling lol. Great video!
Did you pat the filter dry after rinsing? That’s what the usual technique involves
Thanks - you've just saved me a few dollars as I feel the same way about what the papers did and I don't think I need to bother trying his fad.
Adding a puck screen on top helps increase the body while using a paper filter at the bottom, it's worth trying out.
I started to experiment with these. At first I used a 2" punch to make filters out of Chemix. I pre-wet the filters because they say when making pour overs you have to get rid of the paper taste (never tested that, or even if it is correct). I then bought filters from Good Brothers to match my 58mm basket and the taste was different, more balanced. The 2" filters JUST cover the holes in the basket and I wonder if during grinding the paper for my cut filters shifts a bit and I am getting an 'uneven' paper/non-paper filtration.
I pre-wet the filters because it helps them stick to the bottom during WDT...
I'm not a fan of any paper filtered coffee. But this really does make sense for people to try if they like pour overs but not espresso
Great vids as always, you always capture a good angle. Some complain about the smug tone, but a lot of it is reacting to the ridiculous levels of hype about the smallest innovations. I do wish your taste preferences were less traditional, but it seems good nonetheless
Been enjoying your no nonsense, no hype videos on espresso. I’ve also wanted to try using papers because, well, even people who seem reasonable, say it should be good or at least interesting. I’m quite new to espresso but have watched all the usual suspects and read all the usual blogs. I use the Cafelat robot and with a bit of preinfusion, I can make decent espresso but anytime I try using papers (commercial or handcut Hario) under the puck, no matter the grind or other variables, I get an acrid taste. I can make that bitter or sour but always sharp, acrid and aggressive. Obviously I should just give up but I find it a bit frustrating that I can’t get anything even really drinkable using this method. Were you able to get something drinkable in your experiments, even if thin, and do you have any similar experiences that might explain what I’m getting? Many thanks!
James Hoffman suggests that using a paper filter significantly speeds up the flow rate, thereby increasing the yield over a timed shot. Was your experience similar?
It should be about 4-5 sec faster with a paper
@@BrentGoodale with paper on the top or bottom? or both? tks for your sharing!
@@edinmanbiker on the bottom 4-5 sec fast not sure on top
@@BrentGoodale thank you!
I expect the paper filters to block if not all most of cafestol and kahweo. This would help people with heart and cholesterol issues.
What are your thoughts on that?
I didn’t like paper filters with the niche. It highlighted more of the unpleasant flavours the niche brings out of the coffee. However I very much like the results with my Eureka SD. I think the taste is more intense if you can say it that way. Also shot times vary. But in my experience you can simply grind a bit finer without increasing channeling much or choking the machine. Also the puck is visually very even wetted. No real distinguishable darker wet spots or at least they are very evenly distributed.
Any reason for short burst of water 1st then goingfor extraction?
What I have found in my experiments is, the layered puck (more extracted at the bottom) occurred more with pre-wetting the filter. It's like water pre-extracts the coffee or something, but as you say, we have no idea what's really going on there.
did you use the same grind settings for non-paper espresso vs paper espresso?
You cant. Paper filters flow faster.
When you say it makes straight espresso easier to like, did you prefer it to espresso without a paper filter?
I preferred ordinary espresso, but those who aren't used to it might like the filtered kind.
How you keep your machine clean after each shot?
You run a small amount of water by the grouphead after each shot?
And wipe?
Do you ever back flush the machine with just water no chemicals?
I saw some of your other videos but was not sure how is the workflow to keep it clean and prevent using descaling solution.
Thank you!
I have to disagree with your comment about how much a grinder / burr set affects taste. If I put the same bean in my nautilus vs my backup vario the difference is so notable that a blind taster may even think they’re different beans. We’re not talking about subtle nuances only a coffee geek will notice here, at least with light roast, we’re talking about major differences.
Does papper filter on top works just the same as metalic puck screen? When I pull multiple shots it’s just frustrating to rinse the screen all the time. I’ll rather use papper filter on top instead.
For me paper filter is way better, gives me good shots of espresso and way easier to remove the puck. I use it top and buttom and puck screen last.
excellent and intuitive description with good arguments against all that nerdy and stylish attempts to re-novate one of the most classic drinks mankind knows: coffee or particularly e s p r e s s o . Most of the gadgetry is for tea lovers or filter fans: overly complicated proceedings with more and more muted tastes as a mediocre result. No one ever would come around the corner and to that for example with a classic single malt whisky.
Good video and info. Some bitterness to other videos woth a hint of lavender sarcasm 😂
I think it can help filter out the diterpenes which could raise bad cholesterol levels.
I have also read that, there are some studies to back it up, but the % it drops those levels is a question I haven't found a good answer for.... I use them anyway, why not
@@lyleallan5124 Yeah, why not! I also can't find the percentage... I don't see much harm other than creating paper waste.
Do you still have your Cafelat Robot? Do you ever reach for it now?
Decent XL with Weber HG2 and a Weber Unibasket - basket took some wrangling to get dialed but as for paper? When my initial bunch of 50 that shipped with basket are used I won’t be continuing with paper - a screen on top however has been a go to for past year - really did not seem any difference with filter in taste terms but it makes for a clean knock but waiting for a couple of mins while I steam milk and waiting for air to rise gives time for puck to knock clean usually sans paper - good video and content!
What do you define as lever-ish pressure profiling? I'm genuinely curious.
There appear to be potential health benefits of using paper filters which remove harmful cafestol and has been associated with lower LDL cholesterol. The studies are not conclusive but were good enough to convince me to add a paper filter.
Cafestol has proven to have numerous health benefits
I don't use the paper filters all the time but will use one or two if I have some older coffee and having trouble slowing it down or to tone done some of the acidity. For dark roast I like the thicker flavor without the paper.
I use a paper filter on the top of the Puck to keep my machine clean so don't have to clean it just give it a try
I have tried this experiment myself not with expresso but with Moka pot I tried a huge variation from v60 to traditional Coffee brew Aeropress Etc and came to the conclusion that basic drip coffee paper filter work best for my Moka pot.
Shall I change my ways and stop using paper on the bottom adjusting the espresso grinder again. It was said I should go taste preference, hmmm.
My understanding was the paper helped remove some type of chemical or poison kind of thing that researches found when extracting the espresso. Nothing noted about flavor. I can't recall the specific name of the offending molecules right now though.
I have brought some filters but haven’t tried them yet. I did buy a puck screen and I think that’s helping. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on those. I’ve noticed a little more consistency. The pucks are quite unusually firm too. .
A lot of thoughts on that here: ua-cam.com/video/bEmT9vbE2mI/v-deo.html
I’ve been using cheap eBay 58mm filter paper for the last 3 weeks 2 cups every day. I use a 20g IMS precision basket with nanotech coating. There was no need to change grind size but I need to WDT more carefully to ensure a good even tamp. It does seem to be a little thinner and less crème, but overall the taste actually is a little more intense and bolder for me, which is a good thing.
I should add the best thing about it is no more coffee grind in the cup!
I use 2 paper filters at the bottom and 1 over the coffee. The 2 paper filters are creating more pressure and better coffee, in my case.
P.S. My coffee machine costs 20 euros on 2nd hand (60 euros if brand new).
I hope this doesn't make me one of those guys you mentioned (emotional need to seem smarter) - but I started testing paper filters under the puck about 20 years ago (I cut them to fit with a fiskars circle cutter). In my case, I was trying to see if I could get espresso with less of those oils that I suspected might be the causing elevated BP. I still try the paper now and then but prefer my espresso without it. Totally agree with your description. I was surprised to discover that it's become a thing now and you can buy papers in sizes for espresso.
Excellent wonderful and superbly done
I noticed with a paper at bottom, the flow rate increased way faster and I have to grind finer to counteract it. Do you have this problem?
I hope you've seen Hoffman's vid on 'The Great American Taste Test", and primarily the results and tastes,
Bro, where is your video about water for coffee?
Pulled because I'm planning a better one covering brew and espresso. For espresso machine water / mineral issues, see this one: ua-cam.com/video/zEvGbvrkDvo/v-deo.html
I've done testing with my friends and the paper filtered espresso won unilaterally. The paper filtered shots had a lighter but creamier texture, longer lasting crema and very similar tasting notes, just with reduced bitterness.
I don't pre-rinse my filters. I worry that the moisture will wick into the puck and cause the grounds to expand and start infusing.
I wonder if it's something that helps tidy up the shots from people with cheaper equipment. I was using a modded Dedica (hotter water) and a K-Plus grinder. Decent equipment, but two leagues below your setup.
The papers I use are also very thin and not as robust as most of the filters you tested, closest might be a stock aeropress filter. I can't even overcome the added shot resistance of a Chemex cut out!
Your basket about 22g as far as I understand. why did you prefer use 16g coffee in it ?
ua-cam.com/video/SyGJXRlexmc/v-deo.html
I'm a bit confused. You showed some espresso-specific filter papers by Good Brothers and then compared a bunch of filter papers designed for pour-overs... but didn't include the Good Brothers filters in the comparison? This seems odd.
The Chemex ones *are* the Good Bros ones: 00:20 - 00:22
@@wiredgourmet OK thanks for clarifying - I was going off the show notes, so maybe update these too?
@@technovelodos Good catch. Done :)
Apparently, the FILTERS remove certain compounds which INCREASES CHOLESTEROL.
I am thinking what's missing in this type of argument is the mean pore size of the filter papers used.
If only they had pores. They're permeable, but not porous.
@@wiredgourmet it's a term also used in laboratory filter papers where there are various filter papers with different pore size for e.g. 120 micron, 240 microns etc to allow particles of certain diameter to pass through, which i imagine can also affect your coffee taste. But what is shown in the video are just filter paper brands instead of the more specific detail. But then Of course, as long as it taste good then it's good.
@@jsl8082 Check out the second vid; I show the paper under the microscope.
I think the type of coffee is very important when testing paper filters. Light roasts can benefit from having a paper filter and its a waste of time with dark roasts
I have the complete opposite opinion. Dark roasts have a lot of crap tastes that the paper helps filter out
Less cafestol could improve ones LDL levels of cholesterol.
in my experience it makes light roasts much more enjoyable, balancing out some of the sourness that can occur. tests have shown that given the wet filter, and that water tends to go where it's wet, you get a more even extraction around the edge of the puck. that would explain why I'd get less of a sour shot, given less under extraction at the edge of the puck. however, I do not enjoy the filter, once the roasts get darker, or are more medium / classic italian type of roasts. I guess the bit of under extraction you get from a less even extraction around the outside of the puck, helps give the shot more complexity. with a filter those beans taste more bland to me in the cup. I'm not sure what beans you used, but I know that the niche in terms of flavour profile is more skewed towards a classic / italian type of shot, maybe that might be the issue why you're not seeing a benefit. my experience is with a mignon oro.
Lovely video as always, Wired King! ❤
We were wondering if you had any plans on making a "review and teardown" on the Timemore Sculptor?
I think a stainless steel fine mesh puck on top is better it keeps the group head cleaner and stops channelling
though the puck and paper what's in it bleach to make the paper white and probably other chemicals 🤔
Cheers and thanks
I love watching TWG bottomless shots! Not sure anyone makes them look so good.
However, when trying a new equipment or technique, it might be a good idea to be flexible over recipe and to re-dial from scratch with the new method... That said, I did all that but reached the same conclusion anyway: less enjoyable (to me) narrower-focussed espresso. I ended up with an obviously different extraction though: no watery start, about 10% less needed coffee for similar yield and strength, and shockingly uniformly extracted spent pucks.
One flaw here could be using the E&B Labs Competition "Flat" basket? Flat is a misnomer for these because they are not flat at all when, or after, containing anything like the usual 9 bars! And used convex baskets are not great for prep, flat tamped density uniformity, or for use with papers. I wonder if the watery start came from leaving the rinsed basket wet, or from having to excessively wet the paper to get it to conform to the basket, but either way I don't think it's an asset or something that others who regularly use papers put up with?
To really do this experiment justice probably needed a much heavier stronger (and flatter) basket, so the paper can easily do it's job properly with less compromise. A VST, Pullman or LM is much heavier and thicker and stays much flatter during, and after, use, so would be a better starting point. I've gone off E&B Labs Competition Flat completely as annoyingly barely-magnetic puck-traps, and have to say it's VST or LM for me now (unless one day I get to try one of those funky and horrifically expensive new super-baskets and find it brings enough to the table)... And don't even get me started on IMS fashion screens...
Anyhow, keep it up!
Thank you!
I use the infinity filter system. More like a lasagne. One filter then 3 grams of coffee, then another filter plus 3 grams and so on
The results?
Takes 3 days for extraction but its 0.00001% tastier so this is now my daily workflow. Had to buy 2 more machines mind
I love your videos
The mere idea of trying to improve something as rich and complex as a successful espresso shot by running it through a paper filter seems weird to me. It’s overcomplicating things just for the sake of it, I think.
I believe you're seeing water that is pre-loaded into the paper, so you are essentially diluting the espresso by the x gram of water you added into the paper. The counter here, would be that a dry paper load would thereby be changing/intensifying the flavor by removing a little bit of the pre-infusion - up to the drinker if he enjoys the first 5 or 15 seconds of the pre-infusion drip, and I suppose the drinker should do the Salami to understand that notion. As for the papers themselves, they are probably helpful for those who tamper and/or dose incorrectly. I suspect the paper acts as a pressure distributor throughout the incorrectly dosed and/or tamped puck. I'm not a chemist - so I cannot opine regarding the paper's ability to filter out the espresso grind insolubles - at which point one could argue this exercise is simply to drink an intensified v60s with the paper of choice.
Great catch. I agree. I mentioned it and later cut it, over-editing.
My ❤
You get a watery start because you used rinsed filters the pressure push the water out those you get a watery start… We use dry filters not wet. It’s already been tested that the amount of paper is irrelevant both in espresso and aeropress as the proportions are quite low so it’s not necessary to rinse them.
Coffee is sometimes difficult to describe. I once watched Lance Hendrick, a very gifted UA-camr, suggest he tasted "yellow" during one cupping session. I wonder what "yellow" tastes like. Banana? Lemon? Custard? Who knows. 🤣
That might be a touch more figurative than I would take it :)
Never tried paper filters. Had a gut feeling they did something along the lines of what you found. If people just said, "I like a cleaner espresso that's like a strong V60." I'd get it, but they say it's 'better' when I have the not dissimilar preferences to you with my shots. Cheers!
Honestly that's been my feeling since I got deeper into coffee as a hobby. Lots of people seem to put their preferences and routines out there as objectively 'better' when both are mostly down to personal taste.
6:00 it is difficult to criticize those that you judge as "trying to be too clever" without sounding like you are trying to be too clever yourself... as I now find...
"We'll shun the refractometer in place of a more sophisticated instrument" Could not agree more.
Sold as nice espresso with a touch of paper
Mouth feel of espresso is about the coffee oils in the beverage. So using a paper filter on espresso is like saddling a horse at its belly. But who am i to ask why people want to use an espresso machine to produce filter coffee?
thanks :-))
I really do not understand, installing a filter under the tablet allowed my shot as fast at the ''speed of sound''... wtf
No need to rinse the filter paper!
Dude, you start by saying you're doing everything the same. Then you immediately say a pre infusion from "about 10-15 seconds".
?????
Preinf = 1g out. The same in every case. Then I start the timer. Very repeatable and consistent saturation. Feels like 10-15 secs lag, like I said. What, you figured I hadn't thought this all through? You must be new around here.
@@wiredgourmet I also forgot to point out you don't even test the extraction levels. Which if you have done as much research as you facetiously claim you have is something that would have been found as the point of using paper filters.
You change the whole timing of the experiment every test. You also have ABSOLUTELY ZERO OBJECTIVE DATA. All of your results are purely arrogantly subjective.
Google how to do science.
👋
That's a wet puck
BS
I'm glad, the last thing I want is more filters to buy. I already run out of V60 sometimes. Espresso is great, all I need is beans. And I can knock out a shot in 2 minutes.
Since I installed a dimmer and began doing preinsfusion and lever-ish profiles... man it's been good. Everd shot better than what I could ever do without pressure profiling. Just amazingly fantastic haha. Compliments left and right. And you are right now that my Americanos are so delish, I have not been making many cups of V60... I often use the same beans for both anyway.
So higher extraction... I can just grind finer and preinfuse longer... raise the temp from 94 to 95...
Also I do like it filterless, a bit gooey thick. Another thing for fancy people :) I'm not fancy. I take Boron carbide bits to my lovely little Italian machine. I'm a caveman. 1 dollar dimmer shipped direct from China for 10 cents by boat. The good stuff. If it comes with a manual you're buying fancy electronics.
I recommend slapping a dimmer in to anyone with typical, GCP-esque single boiler machine. My god the taste!!! Fk fancy grinders, seasoning, temps other than 94C and levelers. All you need is a wdt, a dimmer and a grinder that isn't total sh*t. No need to spend thousands. Two friends have 3k machines, hand built. They both took notes the second time I made shots. As long as the machine is capable of temp stability the rest barely matters. Except of course beans. Sh*t beans, sh*t coffee. I spent less than a grand on everything, including tampers etc... and the chmapagne that donated a cork for my extremely stylish WDT. I stained the cork walnut and gave it a clear coat because I'm a maniac.
I dare anyone to find an Anna PID that's more fancy than mine. Heck I got a rosewood handle, made a rosewood steam know and laminated the plastic drip tray in mahagony. Even got a bypass switch to select between dimmer and full pressure. Schematics on homebarista if someone want to try it. Kinda fun. Rambling maniac signing off.