The best use I've found for melee cavalry is to have them intercept horse archers. They don't need to kill 'em, they just need to tie them up long enough for the foot soldiers to win the fight. A cavalry shortage is pretty painful when fighting against Aserai and Khuzait armies, it makes a world of a difference to be able to keep them busy dealing with butter knights so they can't pepper your troops uncontested.
Yeah I love using cavalry against horse archers! At the very least the run them back the the enemy line :) I've always found the Khuzait to be a real pain to fight against, but usually come out on top so I think it's more of an annoyance than a real threat in my games lol
Reason why I've gone through the effort of making a full cav army as a vlandian lord, dealing with the cavalry bastards is far easier now since I can just say no to their cav
yeah this. every fight that i know is going to have enemy horse archers i set up a diagonal line of archers and and some horsemen further back to keep the f*ckers from circling
I love playing as khuzait, I run all cav mainly archers but I add in about 40% lancers and cycle charge them as a flank gets exposed. I charge through with the lancers then have them reset to follow me after the initial charge. It's 100% faster than just full horse archers
Skein formation is weird. Historically it's purpose was to pierce through a formation with a center loaded force (Traditionally it looked more like an arrow to really get that heavy punch through the enemy.) This would heavily disrupt the opposing formation, divide a group of troops in half, and allow your infantry/cavalry to get behind the enemy and effectively encircle them quickly or harass/target troops the enemy might want to keep protected such as archers or skirmishers. But in Bannerlord the human aspect of disruption doesn't really apply to the AI since they magically know where to be, and you can already very easily break right through an infantry formation with a cav charge in any formation. Skein seems like a roleplay formation more than a practical one. Especially since equalized alpha damage strikes are the name of the game in Bannerlord, the layered hit one at a time strat just gives the infantry more chances to land a killing blow on the charging cav.
I think you have it spot on - It's more of a RP formation to use. It would be really cool if they could model the human aspect of war and combat in a, but I can't even comprehend how difficult it would be. This reminds of the conversations that sprung up about pikes and how they were a deterrent for horses rather than a deadly stick to stab with, but it's difficult to model horses fear I guess.
I think the physcological factor was part of it too. When you are in a line holding for a charge and you see the highest concentration of horses gathering in a collision course. You may see troops moving out of the contact point to not get trampled instead of valiantly taking the brute force of the charge. Causing a domino of effect of the biggest concentration of cav facing a smaller concentration of troops. But the AI simply doesnt fear death by a 100 horses.
I always thought skein formations was to blitzkrieg to their backline and get their archers or (in some cases) get their leader if they are holding onto a spot. Either way I usually use skein formation for my foot infantry around mountains and such so archers usually have a worse time than shield wall.
Skein historically was for mobility while charging, it allowed the first unit in the arrow head to take command, every other soldier a rank behind would follow the rank front, allowing to make turns while on the charge without clashing. After the initial charge if you want your horseman to engage in melee of course a tighter and uniform formation would be better.
@@emircankose5740 Ah that makes sense, I suppose it's the same logic behind diamond formation and some others use throughout history then? I don't have any experience riding horses so it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's also not an issue in Bannerlord since they just act like bumper cars lol
I've never used skein/wedge calvary formations in Mount and Blade or the Total War games because I'm unconvinced the AI is good enough to make them really work. In a real battle there's a big psychological component in using formations like that. It may take a lot of nerve for a line of spearmen to hold when a line of calvary begins charging them but they're all together facing them down. However when the calvary is charging in skein/wedge formation they're pointing at 2 or 3 of the spearman in the frontine and those guys have to watch those charging horses knowing they're going to get hit first. That's not to say they'd turn and run but they're going to side step a little bit and be more willing to give ground and that will allow the calvary to piece the formation.
Yeah that's a tough one to model in a game. There are a bunch of things similar to this that would be nice to have, but I'm not even sure how they would implement it? I agree with you though.
WingfootMcNova use those in Total War games, the formation itself changes about nothing but the ability gives you vertain buffs and debuffs, they can be useful diff from bannerlord since it does not add buffs
Basically when in doubt use either shield wall or square, these formations just work in most situations as long as you do not leave them in advance if the enemy meets your units.
@@Strat-Guides Its easier than than you think actually. Not everything has to "happen" in a game, thats why we have rpg elements to them. When the cavalry using skein formation, they could just ignore enemy infantry's knockback/knockdown resistence completely, and it would express that "one soldier in the front side stepping and giving ground" _just_ perfectly enough.
Can I just say, you have become my go-to guy for bannerlord content. The extensive tests and data. So much work. I learned sooo much from all of your videos. So from the bottom of my bannerlord soul, thank you 🙏 also man shieldwall was surprising
Thank you! I hope I continue to earn that designation :) I know, I'm embarrassed to say that this was probably the first time in 3k hours of playing that I used shield wall for cavalry. Who knew??
Interesting. One of my favorite tactics with massed cavalry is to give them the Column and Follow Me orders, then lead them around the enemy infantry in a big snake to line up parallel with the enemy archers. Then, giving the charge command while still in column means your cavalry charge the *length* of the archer line and completely avoid infantry!
I do almost the same but cycle forth and back through enemy lines like making an 8 with enemy lines in the middle of this 8. So my cav doesn't stay long enough inside enemy lines to be drawn into close fights but still has its charge bonus and when enemy lines get lose I give the charge command. This keeps casualties low and makes a lot of fun.
This guide was both painful and fun to make! I learned so much and I really hope you can too from watching it. It's a bit longer that the usual, but I cut it down from 25 minutes to 20 because breaking it up into 2 videos was not an option. Also, I didn't label anything as a bonus because I felt like 60% of the video would be considered a bonus haha. If you missed any of the previous 4 episodes in the series, you can find them on the playlist here: ua-cam.com/play/PLtLh7oY6l6_-imuXlvZSFiZErbNrG06Ol.html
So I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your time and dedication to this, but I do have to ask, in the Cav vs Melee infantry, why did you not test the compact square formation for infantry? With so many bodies packed together, would they not stop cav that entered the formation by the mid point, thus robbing many cavalry of their momentum?
@@mikhailfilitov1479 Lol I like that, it doesn't take forever to say :) There are a lot of Ls and Rs in Javelin Cavalry which can be tricky to say fast
@@Sprayer-px3tu Yeah that was a mistake, sorry about that. The final recap page is the most accurate one since I was using that and I must have forgotten to adjust the crop
I *really* liked the new way you're editing the table of the data. Laid out nice and clean so people can pause to watch, narrated accurately but also having the visual aid of colour coding red and green is great. I've been coming back to these videos heaps because there are so many little gems in them.
These formations and tactics tests are exactly what M&B needed all along. We fight, but we, apparently (cav skein) don't know if we can perform better.
Before watching I hope Wedge formation performs well because as a Total War and Conqueror's Blade player I just carried that habit over and use my cav to charge in Skein all the time. It just feels and looks right. Although a proper Wedge formation would be really neat. Edit: man that sucks
Your guides are absolutely lovely, but I must say that I would also love to see some actual gameplay from you where you apply your terrific knowledge in strategy and tactics to dominate as a Calradian Napoleon.
Thank you for watching! I do have a series I just finished recently, but I didn't apply any of these tactics in there since I completed that before starting these tests. I have another campaign that I'm hoping to start before the end of the month, so keep an eye out for that! It will be playing as Amir Timur (Tamerlane) and will be an extremely hard bandit run :)
@@TheCillisSst Sweet, I'll do my best to get it out soon! Here is a basic overview of the ruleset we will be following: - Start with nothing (no money, weapons, armor, food, nothing) - Start at war with all kingdoms including minor factions and in jail somewhere - We aren't allowed to buy supplies from anywhere (peasants, caravans, towns, etc.) until we capture a fief, then we can trade with only our own fiefs. - We can only convert prisoners, no hiring troops of any kind. Prisoners are limited to troops that cannot be recruited normally, so we can use bandits, mercenaries and minor faction units (also peasants, these are really important actually lol) - No smithing to sell at any point, all money must be earned from loot, raiding, fiefs, etc. I've done extensive testing and I finally figured out a way to make it work :D
I love how the Skein formation has become a meme on the channel. Anyway, one of the weird things about cavalry in MnB (both Bannerlord and Warband) is that having your horse killed under you, historically, was a very bad thing. Not only did you lose the Ferrari of the day, but you are also liable to have yourself trapped under your own horse, breaking legs at best or breaking your spine at worst. Assuming of course the rider wasn't able to jump off his horse before that happen. But of course, in MnB, the horse acts as an extra healthbar. This means that horse archers are just BEEFIER than normal archers, because the former doesn't have a decrease in accuracy. Historically, horse archers would charge within a hundred yards, shoot, and wheel away. Anyway, just wanted to give my 2 florins. NOW GIVE ME BANDITLORD EPISODE 1, STRAT.
Oddly enough it's best on infnatry vs infantry battles and worst used with cavalry lol makes sense (TW Maths)! Yeah good point, also there are no injuries to deal with until health goes to 0. It's funny how 1hp troop performs the exact same as 100hp troop, but that might be tough to model in game? Haha I have to get the recap video for WC done first :) I just started on that last night at the same time I was uploading this one! The work never pauses for a moment, trust me!
@@Strat-Guides you could have your weapon and athletics skill decrease in-battle by .5% for every 1% of health lost. and have perks in athletics that mitigate to maybe a .25% decrease or something?
@@chappy4756 That's a good idea and would probably be easier to implement. Although maybe it would add a lot of processing power to have it tracked for each unit? I'm not really sure, I don't code at all lol But I like the idea. I'm sure people would complain about the damage not being localized (leg hits slow movement, arm hits slow swing speed, etc.)
Totally agree. They sould add fall damage when the horse is killed (and maybe a chance for the rider to be killed instantly?). That would balance the whole game while being more realistic. If they dont do it maybe a modder will?
So I came back to this one while developing some more "unorthodox" tactics during my "establish the vaegir kingdom" RP run-through and stumbled on a gold'y thanks to this vid. With the pre assumption that the Vaegirs love 2h weapons, archers, and individual combat over formated line fights I was obviously having a bad day to massed vlandian charges that my small number of heavy cav just sucked up so many casualties trying to slow down for me. So, I stuck a 2-deep line of heavy cav in front of the archer line in shield wall and put a clump of sturgian linebreakers in between the ranks. It was phenomenal. The vlandian charge stopped dead on the front rank of holding cav and then just MELTED when the linebreakers charged. 150 kills, 0 deaths. Thanks strat, as always your vids are so pivotal to my continued success in this game.
Nice!! I do something similar, but I am going to try it your way because I generally keep my shield wall slighty ahead and get some casualties. I usually stick my cav in shield wall inside the shieldwall formation, but I think your way is more optimal! Thanks for sharing :)
There's one command missing there, and it's the one I often default to with cavalry: follow. It creates a long column behind you, which you can then use to manually charge the enemy from the flanks. It slaughters troops in line formation, and if you charge from the right infantry can't use their shields effectively. Against another cavalry unit it helps outmanouvering them. You can attack their weak spots for massive damage or disrupt their formation to prevent their charge from gaining momentum. It's micromanaging, but you can do it for just 1 or 2 charges and then give the charge command so you can focus on the rest of your troops.
I do kind the same, I tend to have a strong cavalry, atm I begin with intercepting enemy cavalry, that done the infantry usually just begun fighting, this allows to charge the back with a wide formation, loads of kills right there, pull back and repeat, basically shock cav tactics, the infantry and archers stay back, and when they engage I relegate command
I learned to fear the Menavilaton fairly early on. When you are riding into a line of infantry on horse back, those little bastards are about the only ones able to hit you. And when they do, they do some serious damage.
please test relative effectiveness of using the move command to put "Line" formation calv on top of the archer formation. Without cycle charging the archers go into melee mode and don't get to shoot the retreating calv in the back.
I'm happy to help :) Once I get done with the unit vs unit testing, I'll make all of the data public for all to access as well in case anyone is curious!
This one I think is the most useful to me yet, because I've never been great at using cavalry as effectively as I know they *could* be. The shieldwall and square results are super interesting, and I had no idea the cataphracts could brace their spears like that. Thanks!
Yeah me too! I've integrated a lot of these into my recent play through and it made a huge difference. Actually, one thing that works wonders is to have your infantry in shield wall with cavalry in shield wall right behind them or even inside the infantry formation. Once the enemy cav hits the formation, they all melt away quickly! If they have a lot of cav, you can place horse archers right behind them since they seem to shoot through everything lol
Holy crap. You just changed my view of how I use my cav. I thought the same thing you did about the skein, so it's good to see I'm not the only one who thought that. Thanks for the info, man. I have been doing break even work at best, and that makes so much sense now.
I usually don't comment on UA-cam videos, but your channel is *criminally* underrated! Well done, especially with this battlefield tactics series! You deserve a ton more viewers.
Excellent work! Never would have thought to use shield wall formation. And interesting data on how archers fare better in loose vs the charge than in a tighter formation. I liked the triple ranked charges!
@@miketrice533 Especially with ranged weapons, too many troops concentrated into one area make for easy targets. There is probably a logistics reason for it too although I don't know that much about it. You bring up a good point!
i think the reason why shield wall, square, and circle formations produce good results for melee engagements of most troop types is that the AI holds their shield up constantly in these formations. a line charge has the AI spending more time swinging their swords than holding up their shields, so they get hit more often which makes the soldier go down quicker. a shield wall charge has the AI spending more time holding up their shields and a little less time swinging their swords, so the shield absorbs much more damage and the soldier can fight for longer. the best offense is a good defense, so to speak.
Yeah that's true, it's almost impossible to get around a shield in this game. I should put it on regular speed and just watch up close to see what's really going on. Great analysis though, I think you're probably right :)
@@SocuteRaptor I tried a couple different formations that didn't make it into the video, but in my experience they don't really do well unless they are given the charge command, regardless of the formation. I'll have to double check my database to see if I specifically ran that one, maybe it would help!
@@Strat-Guides I played this game like a year ago, back then, there is no pike brace, so the best way to counter an AI cavalry charge is to move my own cavalry in front to body block them. But early game without cavalry, shield wall is a must. There is no other choice.
@@SocuteRaptor Yeah it's tough to counter cavalry without your own cav. Even spear brace is not very reliable because it only works when they charge directly into them. Otherwise the pikes are totally useless lol. It seems like shock troops are the best counter for foot vs cav so far.
I appreciate you using different unit types and mixing up the numbers. The sizes of the units can very much change the outcomes of battles even in fairly close engagements.
I use full Calvary. Currently 130 melee calvary and 118 horse archers. I take on armies 4 times my size and lose about 5 men. When a war breaks out I immediately go into enemy lines and attack any lord I find stopping them from making strong armies. At the start of a war between Western empire and batannia had captured over 30 lords right after the war started. Hear the end of that war 4 armies of 430-460 marched into my territory (at this time I had around 130 men) I crushed all of them as my men were experienced with while theirs were mostly just recruited. My calvary have wiped out the northern empire, southern empire, vlandia, and batannia.
Shield wall on cavalry certainly has its uses in normal battles as well. You can use cavalry and horse archers as mobile infantry/archer combos to ride out to a flank, put your horses in shield wall in front of your horse archers, then just treat them as a normal foot soldier army that can retreat quickly if need be. Legionaries don't do well against cavalry. Despite having a short polearm, they seem to hate using it regardless of circumstance. I wish they would just give them normal javelins tbh. Other cultures like battania have an abundance of polearms on their troops, yielding much better results against pesky cavalry groups.
That's a solid idea. I wonder if the horse archers can fire through the shield wall too since they are cav? Those HA are cheaters lol Yeah I noticed that, they rarely pull the Pilum out. It's a shame cause it does decent damage.
you just need to keep your infantry on shield wall so they don't get hit hard by the charge at all or 1 shot by couch lance. legionaries will throw their polearms and they only have 1. so if you hold fire they might pull it out and stab the cavs with it. the darkhans are in the same weird position but they have better throwing spears that do more dmg and are longer.
@@storm0fnova Oddly enough, in all the testing I did there wasn't a single Pilum that was thrown! I'm wondering if they changed the AI recently because I'm pretty sure I remember they doing that previously.
@@Strat-Guides yeah i think they made the ai not throw their last throwable or something like that. which is odd since legionaries and darkkhans only have the 1. i remember all the testing i did last year they threw their spears and if you time the volley right before the charge you see a nice span of greens. but it was months ago any things change too much.
@@storm0fnova Yeah I think they tweaked the AI at some point because I remember it being good with throwing weapons, then terrible. Now in today's patch it seems they fixed it again lol so here's to hoping!
I've had some Positive results with Column + Charge against enemy infantry. Cavalry punches through the enemy line and leaves a nice hole for my Infantry to Exploit.
So I tried column with the cavalry but I couldn't get it to work :( I suspect it's because I was trying with 500 haha I think the AI would have a much easier time with 50 - 100. I'll have to try it again with smaller numbers, thanks for the heads up!
@@christianmunkjensen8817 So I tried column, but my cav got stuck in a giant circular ball lol I only have 10 - 15 following me and the rest were goofing off. I think if I did it again with less than 500 cav it might work :) I think it's a good idea though, more surface area for the charge.
It's always very nice to find one of your videos, they are very instructive. now, there are two tests I've missed in this vid: - charging and then staying (in shield wall maybe) without charging back and forth, it seems to me like a good idea against both cav and archers - charging archers from the flank. this is very often possible and I actually do it most of the times.
Thank you! - That's a great point as the strength of shield was vs other cav is the close quarters. I'll have to keep that in mind for the mixed unit testing. - So anything from the flank is great for minimizing casualties, since they will be focused in a different direction. My biggest concern there is compared to hitting directly on, the casualties inflicted are a bit less, so there is a tradeoff. I'm not sure which one would win, but it's definitely worth a test! I'll give it a shot when I get a chance this week :D
Something I am fond of doing is to use elite heavy cavalry in an anti-infantry role. Not so good in real fights but a few expensive horsemen are a very satisfying way of dealing with looters.
Welp i guess i wont be using skein formation anymore, simply fascinating testing !!! Well done sir !!! One thing id like to see (probably gonna have to be a mod) is the ability for the player to use cavalry in a siege battle. Id love to be able to sally out from a secondary gate to cycle charge the attackers/break the siege equipement and then fall back behind the walls. Altho id imagine that would be some major work (AI pathing, increase of siege map size, bigger spawn area and making sure units dont spawn on roofs and i could go on). Now for the mounted archers/skirmishers, thats gonna be a good one (they all are really)
I know, I will probably still use skein from time to time just based on pure habit lol I'll have to retrain my brain :) 100% agree, that would be such an amazing thing to see. I think there are many cases where a sally out would be appropriate, but lack of mobility makes it less-so. I'm excited to test the ranged cav as I have a few ideas that I want to test out that might change the way I build my army!
just wanted to comment that I love the content! Love the effort you put into these vids, it really shows. Keep up the work, and hope to see more from you!
I saw someone mentioning how cavalry back in the day would use a diamond formation for attacks, I would bet what makes the circle formation plus charge work is exactly why diamond was used. Initial wave lands, then the back half as well, giving a layered strike doubling your troop concentration in the middle formations of the opponent.
@@Strat-Guides exactly! I would bet manually controlling the formation to strike then rotate out and then back for another strike would be pretty clean. Maybe. I saw this at work, so I can't wait to get home and test it 😂😂
i think where skein shines is by making it easier for the rest of your cav to get thru the enemy line and not get bogged up, keeping the momentum going so they can run somewhere else, which can arguably be more important, especially if you start with a skein with an initial charge not expecting much damage with that, but then following about 30-50 yards behind with a line of cavalry to ensure maximum coverage of the enemy line. start on your side with the line of cav infront of you and the chevron infront of that (conversely you can lead the charge at the head of the chevron with the line behind it all). order the chevron to advance get ready to set the cav line behind to advance. advance. when the chevron is about at the right distance tell it to charge. then tell the line to charge. this can be followed up with other dedicated cavalry lines to charge or having a light cavalry pick off individual troops or to have your infantry rush in in whatever particular fashion you like. another chevron and line tactic that works (with the same setup, just maybe a slightly longer delay) is to do a hammer and anvil cavalry attack. get the chevron to go thru the enemy, then get the line to charge and then get the chevron to charge again after its ready.
@@Strat-Guides do you do videos on multifaceted tactical strategies? ive seen some other vids on yours and i like seeing when you combine formations and movements to properly utilize a formation or tactic
@@elijahoconnell So I have 2 more big topics on my list before I start making EU4 and HOI4 content - how to make/manage a kingdom and finishing off the tactics series. For the tactics series I'm going to be covering how to fight with a full army and testing many of the tactics discovered in these individual unit guides and some of them are pretty micro-intensive and complex!
I disagree because horses are powerful but it’s not a car.it would be simply unfair if you could trot through formations.There’s two possible compromises though.We could have it to where when you hit an infantry unit you lose all your speed and A knock them prone B deal more damage.
Haha I should have brought back the star wars scene again, but I just used it in the archer video. That's a good one though!! Yeah charge damage is so weak in game. It would take being trampled 25 times or so do down someone, which seems absurd lol I'm pretty sure the human body can't handle 24 charges and still survive only to die on the 25th :)
I think having them mow a whole line down would also be unrealistic, but I do think they should do more damage for at least the first 1 or 2 infantry they come into contact with. 2 - 4 damage is less than the looters stones and frankly I would rather get pelted by a rock than run into by a horse at full speed :D
@@Strat-Guides they should do more trample damage, but at the cost of slowing down, like irl - cav literally bogging down in deep inf formations where they are hopeless and surrounded. In summary - devaststing first impact plus uber morale damage even before the connection, after it massive slowdown where they are dead if enemy endured or without their own inf
somewhat unrelated to this video: when using a shield wall to stop enemy army for other units (specially archers) to flank, i usually *make shield wall fall back 10 steps while simultaneously telling my flanks to advance to position because aggro is already off them*. This halves the time needed to get them in position. As a bonus, i call melee cavalry back and forth for big charges in a way that doesnt trap the enemy to diminish our casualties and so working the enemy army's morale down while leaving them room to flee and get shot in the back
Normally what I do albeit convoluted, I split my cavalry into two equal units, especially if I am playing defensive or am outnumbered. I split them into flanks on either side of the advancing enemy. I have my infantry in the middle and ranged behind them and their shield wall. As they approach my cavalry slams into the sides drawing the outlying soldiers attention , my infantry holds the line and archers pick them off through the chaos. Iam level 6 clan tier so my regular party is around 200-220 and I have around even splits between Calvary Archers and Infantry. Sometimes I skimp on the infantry depending on the faction I face, I go with more archers versus heavy horse factions like the Aserai. An abundance of archers usually makes mincemeat out of them lol. Haven’t lost yet despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 at some points. (Edit) I also play as Vlandia so my crossbowmen are high level and my Knights are pretty formidable. I usually recruit sturgian infantry though because their heavy armor seems to hold up better in line clashes.
Nice, perfect timing!! Next week will be ranged cavalry, but not sure which day I'll have it finished by. I'm working on the recap episode for the WC series for the next couple of days.
Your findings about shield wall are quite interesting, as they are historically accurate. When on the defensive, irl cavalry would cluster as close as possible.
i started yesterday watching your videos.... with this one i achived 100% of your channel lmao, i would love to see a money making guide, thats where i strugle the most, thanks for all the info dude
Lol nice, I wish there was a steam unlock for that :D Come to think of it, Bannerlord needs some unlocks to collect! Okay got it, I do have that one on my list. The easiest answer is smithing, but for some that's a bit too easy to cheesy. Outside of smithing, it's tough until you get a town or two. It's like a vicious cycle - you need to be in combat all the time to make enough money to afford your army, but you need a big army to be able to win in combat, which means... it repeats over and over lol
@@Strat-Guides exactly, thats what i strugle with because i hate smithing lol, it feels like a must in a build and have to spend skill points that could be used somewhere else. thanks for the fast reply. cheers :)
@@NachoDasso Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I don't really use smithing anymore because it makes the game a bit boring. Struggling some keeps things interesting :) I think you just have to use a combination of things: workshops, battle loot sales, prisoner sales, etc. to make enough until you get some fiefs that spit off cash. No problem!
I like using two separate cav formations, both spread out and stacked about 5 units deep and width changes depending on how many I have on hand but at least 10
Great vid. I would really like to know how the cavalry weapons and horses effect their fighting. Lance length? One handed verse polearm? Small steppe horses verse larger destriers? In my experience, cav are better when using one handed against cav or inf that are tight, like where your cav get stuck into the enemy lines and cant really cycle charge or get some distance. But, in longer battles where reinforcements come through, and troops are more widely spread, lances and spears are great for picking off exposed troops. Having smaller horses closer to the ground also make polearms kills against foot troops easier i think. And what about charge damage? Just some ideas bro :)
These are all excellent questions and I just don't have a good answer to any of them (I have some ideas, but without data they would be unfounded). In the very near future, I'll be doing unit vs unit testing and I think I should have a much better idea at that point. Those are very good points. I'm sure the charge damage adds up over time. Most AI won't 1-hit kill, so if they get bumped for 4 damage 5 or 6 times, that might be enough to take time to kill from 3 hits down to 2 or 2 to 1 and so on so it probably does make a difference.
Do you feel like Bannerlord is ready for full release? Also, do you plan to expand content to other games? I love your content but am currently not playing Bannerlord (elden ring, you know).
No, not yet but they are running short of time if they want to keep to their schedule of Q2 release. Yeah I do! I have a few games on the radar, but need to finish up a few more guide in Bannerlord before I feel okay about moving on. I picked up Elder Ring as well, it's pretty fun! It's my first souls game, so the learning curve was pretty rough. It took me about 3 hours to get past Margit lol that was a unique gaming experience for sure :P
This was great though I would have liked to have seen details on what troop types were being used. "Cavalry" is a bit nebulous. You did mention Legionaries and Menavliaton (though not whether they were regular or Elite Menavliaton) but I'd be curious to see whether there was a significant difference in results when pitting a given cavalry force against Fian Champions as opposed to some other kind of archers. Having said that, I do understand the video was less about specific troop types and more about effective formations. Still, having that information would be of benefit, I think.
Oh sorry, the unit info was in the data presented after most of the tests, although towards the end of the video I don't think I used them so great point, I should have added that in! I used all T5 units, so Cataphract for the cav, legionary and menavlion for infantry and Paletine archers. I have already started doing some of the work for unit vs unit testing, which I think will answer a lot of the questions you might have :) Yeah a couple people mentioned that haha It would have been more appropriate to misspell it as slain, but alas it was a typo that I missed in my final review of the editing.
From my test Cavalry with shield wall and charge command is best and it seems from your test, square seems solid as well. The reason is they are less likely to get killed by archers, skirmishers or horse skirmishers/archers on the battlefield due to having the shield up most of the time protecting from projectiles. Also as in case of infantry having your troops with their shield up increases their combat skills somehow blocking more and being less likely to get hit which means less casualties.
100% agree here! It also seems they do better in melee combat as well since the AI tends to swing aimlessly so having a shield up most of the time helps them out a lot.
Nice. I usually have equally distributed footmen/archers and cav. I use the cav to run behind the enemy while the infantry charges and the archers advance. When the battle commences, inf takes its toll archers holding ground behind and cav cirle charge withdraw charge.
@@dlab1978 I used to avoid infantry personally, but from these tests it seems as long as they don't have a lot of shock troops or braced inf then it's a really good trade to make!
This is an infantry thing but its a tech I use against lower tier units to mine. I tell my infantrh to go to a position that is either directly on the enemy inf or slightly past them. My inf run and muscle their way through and I give the charge order. Lets my archers pelt the "from behind" as the enemy inf is forcer to turn to fight without ever really having to move the archers as much.
To me cavalry is best used for nobles hunting. It goes like this: -get party size 100-200 -party is entirely on horses. Can be cheap to reduce costs. What matters is speed on the map and battlefield. -plunder enemy villages, and wait for enemy nobles to arrive -once a noble is nearby, pause plundering, and chase him down -nobles on lone patrol usually have cheap troops. But the sheer speed advantage allows to smash even veteran troops, so the battle is easy when manually commanded. Charge, retreat, charge, retreat. -execute enemy noble -rinse and repeat until entire kingdom falls. When you start meet mostly female nobles in battle, it means you're around halfway through with the kingdom. Also If I play as Empire, I don't execute imperial lords, unless they piss me off by besieging my cities. Another note is to NOT become a faction leader, as almost everyone will hate you. You can rule from the backseat with tons of influence anyway, and you can always orginise "an accident" that kills your ruler. Personally, I only bother with becoming a leader after already having conquered the world.
Thank you!! This one was a bit tough as I wasn't expecting it to take this long to do. I think it was worth it though as melee cav was certainly my weakest area in bannerlord.
Very interesting video again. I am so happy I found your channel. Some things I am curious about and didn't see in the video: Did you consider charging the archer line from the side and not the front? Especially when it's a very long line. I would imagine that should provide the best result as in real life flanking is really important compared to frontal attack but I could be completely wrong in the world of Bannerlord. For the Legionary tests 2 questions: 1. Why not use the shield wall. It would seem the best formation to be able to hold against cavalry. 2. Did the legionaries have fire at will command or where they only on melee mode?
it's important to note that imperial cataphracts have 2h polearms which means on shield wall they can't use their spears. while all other cavalry with 1h spear can still use spear and have couchlance during shield wall. the shield wall charge is a lot better offensively with other faction cavalries. Also never really got into using Skien might as well call it slein cause it's a dead formation i never use. defensively the shields walls allow cavalry to be much more durable as their shields absorb a lot of the attacks, while not slowing them down like infantry. but offensively you want to have as much contact area as possible during charge (as shown by your 3 line method being most effective, 2 rows per line enough, u don't want more rows of cavalry per line of charge or they just run into the horse in front of them and come to a dead stop). the longer the line the better the result due to more points of contact (wrapping around the flank). the cavalry ai tends to bunch up and run into each other coming to dead stops. a while ago i ran some tests using tier 4 imperial cavs vs tier 6 fians. just checked the initial charge. did everything between narrow column to 2 row super long shield wall and found the latter offered the best result. of course from your testing i can tell if i split them into multiple lines and cycle charge it would be better still. another trick is i just run my cavalry through enemy formation. without issuing any command. this way i found they stay in formation the best and half way through the move, i tell them to turn and face the enemy once they get to the other side so they are immediately ready for another round.
Yeah that's a great point about the shields. I did some extra testing afterwards and couch lance didn't seem to have a big impact on cavalry vs cavalry charges, only if one side was holding ground and even then it was a tiny difference. There was a huge difference with couch lancing vs infantry though! Agreed, spreading them out seems to be optimal compared to a tight bunch that doesn't cover the enemy line. That's a good idea, you could issue the move order well past the line to avoid them getting hung up but they will still charge once they get close to the enemy without needing to give the command. I'll have to try that one out!
@@Strat-Guides with my experience it's interesting that in cavalry vs cavalry they don't use the spears much if at all. i had a group on shield wall and the imperial cataphracts got as many kills as the other noble cavs that had the spear vs horse archers. i think it's due to the horse rider ai only able to aim their couchlance low. which results in like 60% misses, 30% hitting the horse, and once in a blue moon they'd hit a horseman in the leg/foot. might just be anecdotal evidence but i think pretty much every time i got downed by a lance it's in the leg
@@storm0fnova True, the only time I notice they use it is when I see a horse rear up but it's pretty rare. I'm wondering if it's certain formations that let them use it but not others? I should pay closer attention to that. Yeah the AI aim with couch lance is odd, I noticed that as well.
I'm not 100% positive on the historical purpose, but I'm pretty sure skein was used often with cavalry. I've heard of infantry formations using it as well, the one I can recall was the "barbarian tribes" using it against Rome to put pressure on a specific section of a line. As for Bannerlord, it seems like the straight formations perform better overall although I'm not entirely sure why. I do know that skein is difficult to judge how wide the formation is to make sure you have it wide enough to cover the enemy's length.
@@Strat-Guides It makes sense that skien formation would be good at penetrating an enemy formation from the rear. As for infantry, Hannibal famously used the crescent formation in the battle of Cannae and won. The problem with Bannerlord is that the numbers in general are too small to use any historical formations. At most you have 500 men on your side and just a single legion had around 4-5 thousand soldiers not counting the cavalry during the manipular period (I think.) Most setpiece battles had at least 10k soldiers on either side. Compared to that, even the most epic battles in Bannerlord are just skirmishes.
@@ashutoshtripathi. That's a great point. Combat in Bannerlord also happens at such an insane pace that's probably not realistic at all, which makes maneuvering even harder because by the time you flank, the main battle is over.
@@Strat-Guides Looks like Square formation is gonna be my go to in Cav vs Cav lol... never used circle or square but those results surprised the hell out of me.
@@Strat-Guides I think that skein might be so terrible because the staggered first-contact with the enemy formation allows multiple enemies to strike the leading skein'ers simultaneously while also giving the enemy a brief period to wind up for another swing before the skein's next in line make contact, basically putting the skein's center at a huge disadvantage right from the start which culminates in the center falling apart very quickly and allowing the enemy to cut off and surround the left and right side of the skein, granting them the numerical advantage of a surround not just right from the start at the center of the formation but also as the center collapses, getting worse and worse as it goes on. The way the AI handles reinforcements from its group is also pretty poor, incapable of handling the heavy losses to the center of the skein. Also, flanking can work if you set it up beforehand. Keep your flankers off to the side far enough and in low enough quantities that the enemy doesn't focus on them enough and orient their army to counter your flankers. Then it's just a matter of timing, capitalizing on the small differences in move speed and riding close enough to other enemy formations to save time, but not close enough to get intercepted. That's pretty common in Total War, zipping your cav just barely past or between enemy formations to get to the enemy's juicy center or backline, and also involves the tactic of push'n'pull with your cav to force the enemy's army into disarray, opening up all kinds of opportunities if you're quick enough to take advantage of them.
Some of these I draw the line with powergaming because I know I would feel very silly having my cavalry stand and receive a charge straight on just because it works better. Also, the thing about Skein is that it's a formation designed to break through a line, and since bannerlord's physics and mass model allows horses to go through formations easily by default, there's literally no advantage in using it. Ironically it may be more useful when used by infantry, being told to go through a formation to make an opening.
The best way to use skein is to hit the infantry flanks at an angle with two groups. Hit archers stright from the sides, on their flanks, and move the calvary all the way down their line. I can take 50 cav and kill 200 archers with a handful of losses.
All this has done is reinforce my preference for cataphriacs and albertrist, I probably spelt both wrong, as you shown, cataphriacs have a in built counter to calvary in the on foot brace ability, as for albertrist, or heavy shield crossbow men, being able to shield wall in tough situations and switch to melee is a great counter to archer weaknesses
This likely changes a lot with cav that can couch vs. not as the catapharacts are primarily built around getting "stuck". What's interesting is that historically, I believe the wedge formation WAS pretty tight knit unlike the ones in the game, not to mention the addition of physics would bend the formation quite significantly. I never really understood skein as particularly effective use of the physics system tbh.
So I also tested with Bannerknights afterwards just to make sure things were still relevant and the biggest difference was Banner Knight vs foot troops. The couch lance seems to have issues against enemy cavalry, especially when they are moving. With cataphracts 100 vs 100 it took 5 charges to disperse archers on hold fire but only 3 charges with Banner knights. Fortunately, the AI still acts the same regardless of which unit is being ordered, so the tests are still relevant, but the time to kill will be much shorter for cav vs foot troops when there is enough room to properly cycle charge.
@@Strat-Guides Neat! Nice! Awesome work. All I gotta say is these tests really really make me want MnB co op and versus at the scale we see in the game!
@@saugatmanandhar6473 You have no idea how excited I would be if they release co-op or even PvP using large armies! I would probably pee my pants a wee bit tbh lol
i use Cavalry for disrupting archers and formations, for example shield walls advancing into my archers (having my ponies flanking from their rear). also they are good for stalling troops to have more time to position, and then retreat them.
I always use cavalry for hit and run attacks and also preferably from the flanks or from behind. Or to harass scattered formations do screw the morale. No point to use cavalry like infantry. And i use wedge formation only for frontal attacks to split infantry and get behind them if i can not go around. Also cavalry works better in smaller groups, 20-30
Hey mate, your channel got me back into Bannerlord 2, have not played it since launch :) Just a quick settings question, what battle size do you play on? Curious how this would effect tactics/reinforcements. All the best out there.
Nice, welcome back! 1.7.0 has been a great patch so it's a good time. They have not release one in a couple months so we may be due for another patch soon! So I keep it on 1,000 unit battles and it actually makes a huge difference. A couple patches ago I tried it out on 600 because one of their "hotfixes" ruined the optimization and I was getting 1FPS or less in big battles. I noticed on the smaller battles, a good fighting main character can make a significant impact on the battle because it's a much smaller battle size and they last significantly longer due to reinforcements. It was much easier to win battles for me anyhow, not sure if that matches other's experience.
In Multiplayer 'Captain Battle Mode' you would do well as cavalry to utilize F1 - F5 'Retreat' order. You move the cavalry where you want them to attack first, then begin the engagement by 'Retreating', keeping the men tight, and they can melee intercept the enemy on their own very well. They will play a defensive game intelligibly while wandering away from the main battle. If your cavalry is fighting scattered infantry, use F1-F4 'Advance' order to melee the scattered enemy infantry. Aggressively If your cavalry is fighting enemy cavalry, use F1-F5 'Retreat' order to pull their cavalry away from the main battle. Defensively Their cavalry will be at a disadvantage against your 'Retreating' melee cavalry, under most conditions.
Interesting info, I'm going to have to give that a go in single player! So with the retreat command in MP, they don't actually leave the battlefield then I assume? I single player they will if you let them go long enough.
@@Strat-Guides That's the best part: They will back away from the main battle. The enemy cav commander doesn't know what is happening. He allows his cavalry to follow yours. Your cavalry rides up onto the mountain side on the edge of the map. They cannot pass through the map edge but linger on the slopes. The enemy cavalry will be baited onto these slopes. If their cavalry is heavier and slower, or your cavalry is lighter and faster turning, then you will beat theirs. It takes a while for the enemy commander to realize the situation and fall back. Khuzait light cavalry naturally has superior turning and melee fighting so they do the best in this tactic, swirling alongside the map edges.
@@Strat-Guides Also your channel is very cool, I found your channel looking for the types of M.P. 'Captain Battle' Pro Tips like what I had previously commented. Your channel isn't quite tailored to 'Captain Battle' mode, understandably, but it's full of golden nuggets!
@@truthseeker-heyoka That's fascinating stuff! I appreciate you sharing it. Good point about Khuzait, their horses always annoyed me because they were so slow but they are very maneuverable...
@@truthseeker-heyoka Sadly I have not tried MP out yet as I have had to stay on the Beta branch for all of the guides. But soon I'll be done with the majority of them and will probably load up a bunch of mods and try some MP. I appreciate you watching and glad to hear there is still some info to be had from them :)
I chose to play with banner knights only on my main character, and I notice that even though, skein formation is for cavalry, its performance is quite poor. Your video helps a lot. Thank you!
@@DestroyerOfOgis i did not played with other cavalry apart from the aserai and the sturgian ones. I am still a new player, but I find vlandian cavalry better and also because I like knights in general.
I made a khuzait warrior for starting a campaign, just invested on horse archers only. A few months after, i got myself 140 khan's guard horse archers, i can intercept any army, and eradicate foot soldiers without taking any losses
Skein and line formations are best used to drive through a hole in a formation such as circle or break up a line and then following up with infantry to enable an envelopment of the broken lines flanks.
That's a good point, the charge itself might not be the most damaging but if it disrupts the infantry line it could result in higher KDR overall. I'll have to test that out!
@@Strat-Guides The key to taking out units faster is to hit units rather than their sheilds. If you step into units you make more contact with the unit itself. If charging with an animal your horse blocks attacks easier. If you are moving forward it is harder for the enemy to hit you as the weapon attacks are blunted... attacks do more damage if they are fully deployed. and they do more damage if they hit while advancing at the end of the attack type depending on attack type. Get a first strike also can stun your enemy giving you an advantage on attack, so getting a first strike gives you an operational advantage. If I want to take a position I use advance, while if I am about to reach a unit in melee combat I will change to attack by ordering a charge on the nearest enemies .. maneuvering can be done with advance as it simply moves the units forward to a position. Charge has the units pick an attack point and advance to them. Advance prioritizes movement to a point while charge initiates an attack. Units that do well on advance likely are sheild units with counter attack ability they likely are better at eating the intial attack they are engaged to.
@@WilliamAshleyOnline I've noticed that as well regarding advance - the shields seem to make up for the lack of aggression. Also, I wonder if ordering cavalry to run through the enemy would help at all rather than charging? Maybe clicking on a mountain behind the enemy, possibly getting them in and out the back before they get stuck.
I think the reason Skein doesnt work as well as it should is the lack of a proper moral and organisation system, whats there does not take into account of how formation cohesion and cavalry shock should function. Infact i believe there is a shield wall related upgrade you can get quite early that makes shielded infantry resistant to cavalry charges which is totally bonkers, yet spears work as intended in this case.
I 100% agree with this! Total War has the morale hit when you attack from a flank and other scenarios that I think Bannerlord should certainly have. I'm wondering if it's because of the complexity of having individual units instead of a "formation" like Total war? On a related topic, horses should also have some fear as they didn't traditionally charge into a wall of spears lol
@@Strat-Guides Good point with the horses, tho if you note the armor on some of them espicially the Catapracts, the horses are blinded a plenty, they would not know what they run into :P
@@Mephaistus Lol poor beasts. Although I've read that warhorses back then were equivalent to someone's house so I doubt someone would intentionally put them at a great risk.
I am trusting the delegate comand, not sure but If you use a companion or family member they seem to also gain tactics exp. Atleast in a army vs army battle as a comandar
I feel that they need to add more damage to cavalry charges as the main threat from cavalry was the devastating charges. You should be able to get a lot of value by cycle charging with a large group of cavalry and be able to disrupt and destroy shield wall formations with the exception of spear shield wall formations. This would buff cavalry but then the maintenance cost can be increased and food requirements increased to maintain the horses and balance out the buffs. This would, at least in my opinion, make the game more realistic and strategic with cavalry. Also, after watching the braced pikemen, what if you kept 2 rows of it facing in opposite directions so that no matter where the cavalry charge from they face the same deadly defense?
There is some mods that do that, I need to try them out to see how good it is. I would like to see cav as more effective, but also more rare/expensive. Great question about the pikes, I actually did try that one! The problem was that most of the cav that broke through ended up coming back to the line slow enough to not take brace damage. They didn't cycle charge far enough back and ended up destroying the back line :(
this was so intriguing to watch even though I'm a player that just presses F6 at the start of each battle and goes ham on the enemy with a two handed axe
Hey pretty helpful data, since I'm one of those skein formation users, haha. But to be fair, if the skein would be a bit more pointed and the flanks would be a bit more towards the center I think it's a better skein. Quick question: Is it an idea to run behind the enemy lines and call for "follow me"? Or is the AI too passive while in that command? My thought would just be that they try to pile up more since they are riding towards one goal, which is you. Idk but it'd be interesting to see in a test :-)
Yeah follow me works pretty well. I find that giving manual move commands works best (giving a move commands that goes through the enemy formation you want to charge), then follow me, then charge command last.
Very good video, as always. I wonder why you didn't test engaging from the flank going to the other flank. Instead of a front charge, make a side charge. It seems to work quite good in my playthroughs
Yeah that's a good point, to be honest I just forgot about it. I already had about 30 minutes of stuff to show in the guide and I chopped it down to 20 minutes because it was just too long. I may do a short follow up video testing a few more things because there are a couple other things that people brought up as well that should have been tested. It's just a big topic and I think I didn't do it enough justice!
i'm not sure but there might be a problem with troop facing and advance, specifically with circle formation. it looks like the circle is facing backwards (due to face enemy default instead of face direction) and this is causing the formation to constantly push the rear forward. it might cause different results if the circle formation was told to face a specific direction to prevent rotation, which is something i do to keep the formation more stable (for infantry at least)
Interesting idea, I didn't consider that! From my observations, advance calculates a specific point in the circle formation and another specific point for the enemy formation and does it's best to keep those 2 points together. The problem with that is it forces a lot of troops to the rear where no enemy is present. It's still a usable command, but I would probably give the charge command a second or two before they collide.
thanks a lot for the video, really changed how i will use cavalry in the future. It would be nice if one day the "mass" of a formation could effect battle, so that the depth of a formation could actually prevent cav from just charging clean though. One question, what is the mod you're using to test your battles? Or are you just utilizing the normal custom battle option in native?
Yeah that's exactly what I thought after doing these tests! It's amazing at how effortlessly the enemy can rip through a formation as if there was nothing there. So I'm using custom battles and the RTS mod (the one that is part of RBM mod on Nexus). Thank you for watching!
Вы также можете спешивать всадников, используя их лошадей как живой щит. Возможно, вам понравится выстраивать спешенных banner knights в круг, оставляя пустое пространство внутри круга заполненным лошадьми (лошади не сбегут из замкнутого круга).
infantry shield wall advance archers lose formation advance cavalry+horse archers column formation and follow me. take em around smashing in this order: horse archers, archers, infantry. works every time
I know most of this testing is done to combat the AI which is usually brain dead, but I would love to try some of these ideas and test to see how they compete against other's ideas. It's doable because with RTS mod I can control both sides. That would be a really fun series of videos! Totally useless, but I think it would be fun :)
I've always been a bit disappointed that the cavalry charge isn't a bit... Smarter than it is. Ideally you'd want your cavalry to break through the formation and then start veering out to the sides for slightly angled side-charges once the formation is broken. For the lack of a better word, I'll call it the blooming flower formation. The advantage of breaking through the center and then veering outwards is that you can maximize the charge damage enemies take before they have time to reposition themselves. The subsequent side charges allow your cav to have a greater front than the enemy infantry while they try to maneuver into a new position to face the cav. You're minimizing the damage taken and maximize the momentum while breaking through the massed and braced middle and then take advantage of a scattered infantry formation rather than allowing them to turn and rebrace in massed conditions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but One interesting thing about holding is it defaults to the "face this direction" command. For the dismounted Capheracts, if it were set to "face enemy" things may have gone differently
Stupid question, is there a special way to chain commands, such as ordering your cavalry into a shield wall followed by charging in that formation, or do you simply give one command after the other?
The best use I've found for melee cavalry is to have them intercept horse archers. They don't need to kill 'em, they just need to tie them up long enough for the foot soldiers to win the fight. A cavalry shortage is pretty painful when fighting against Aserai and Khuzait armies, it makes a world of a difference to be able to keep them busy dealing with butter knights so they can't pepper your troops uncontested.
Yeah I love using cavalry against horse archers! At the very least the run them back the the enemy line :)
I've always found the Khuzait to be a real pain to fight against, but usually come out on top so I think it's more of an annoyance than a real threat in my games lol
Reason why I've gone through the effort of making a full cav army as a vlandian lord, dealing with the cavalry bastards is far easier now since I can just say no to their cav
yeah this. every fight that i know is going to have enemy horse archers i set up a diagonal line of archers and and some horsemen further back to keep the f*ckers from circling
@@mage0534 Lol if you can't beat em, join em right?
I love playing as khuzait, I run all cav mainly archers but I add in about 40% lancers and cycle charge them as a flank gets exposed.
I charge through with the lancers then have them reset to follow me after the initial charge.
It's 100% faster than just full horse archers
Skein formation is weird. Historically it's purpose was to pierce through a formation with a center loaded force (Traditionally it looked more like an arrow to really get that heavy punch through the enemy.) This would heavily disrupt the opposing formation, divide a group of troops in half, and allow your infantry/cavalry to get behind the enemy and effectively encircle them quickly or harass/target troops the enemy might want to keep protected such as archers or skirmishers.
But in Bannerlord the human aspect of disruption doesn't really apply to the AI since they magically know where to be, and you can already very easily break right through an infantry formation with a cav charge in any formation. Skein seems like a roleplay formation more than a practical one. Especially since equalized alpha damage strikes are the name of the game in Bannerlord, the layered hit one at a time strat just gives the infantry more chances to land a killing blow on the charging cav.
I think you have it spot on - It's more of a RP formation to use. It would be really cool if they could model the human aspect of war and combat in a, but I can't even comprehend how difficult it would be. This reminds of the conversations that sprung up about pikes and how they were a deterrent for horses rather than a deadly stick to stab with, but it's difficult to model horses fear I guess.
I think the physcological factor was part of it too. When you are in a line holding for a charge and you see the highest concentration of horses gathering in a collision course. You may see troops moving out of the contact point to not get trampled instead of valiantly taking the brute force of the charge. Causing a domino of effect of the biggest concentration of cav facing a smaller concentration of troops. But the AI simply doesnt fear death by a 100 horses.
I always thought skein formations was to blitzkrieg to their backline and get their archers or (in some cases) get their leader if they are holding onto a spot. Either way I usually use skein formation for my foot infantry around mountains and such so archers usually have a worse time than shield wall.
Skein historically was for mobility while charging, it allowed the first unit in the arrow head to take command, every other soldier a rank behind would follow the rank front, allowing to make turns while on the charge without clashing. After the initial charge if you want your horseman to engage in melee of course a tighter and uniform formation would be better.
@@emircankose5740 Ah that makes sense, I suppose it's the same logic behind diamond formation and some others use throughout history then? I don't have any experience riding horses so it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's also not an issue in Bannerlord since they just act like bumper cars lol
I've never used skein/wedge calvary formations in Mount and Blade or the Total War games because I'm unconvinced the AI is good enough to make them really work. In a real battle there's a big psychological component in using formations like that. It may take a lot of nerve for a line of spearmen to hold when a line of calvary begins charging them but they're all together facing them down. However when the calvary is charging in skein/wedge formation they're pointing at 2 or 3 of the spearman in the frontine and those guys have to watch those charging horses knowing they're going to get hit first. That's not to say they'd turn and run but they're going to side step a little bit and be more willing to give ground and that will allow the calvary to piece the formation.
Yeah that's a tough one to model in a game. There are a bunch of things similar to this that would be nice to have, but I'm not even sure how they would implement it? I agree with you though.
WingfootMcNova use those in Total War games, the formation itself changes about nothing but the ability gives you vertain buffs and debuffs, they can be useful diff from bannerlord since it does not add buffs
Basically when in doubt use either shield wall or square, these formations just work in most situations as long as you do not leave them in advance if the enemy meets your units.
@@Strat-Guides Its easier than than you think actually. Not everything has to "happen" in a game, thats why we have rpg elements to them. When the cavalry using skein formation, they could just ignore enemy infantry's knockback/knockdown resistence completely, and it would express that "one soldier in the front side stepping and giving ground" _just_ perfectly enough.
Can I just say, you have become my go-to guy for bannerlord content. The extensive tests and data. So much work. I learned sooo much from all of your videos. So from the bottom of my bannerlord soul, thank you 🙏
also man shieldwall was surprising
Thank you! I hope I continue to earn that designation :)
I know, I'm embarrassed to say that this was probably the first time in 3k hours of playing that I used shield wall for cavalry. Who knew??
Interesting. One of my favorite tactics with massed cavalry is to give them the Column and Follow Me orders, then lead them around the enemy infantry in a big snake to line up parallel with the enemy archers. Then, giving the charge command while still in column means your cavalry charge the *length* of the archer line and completely avoid infantry!
Ooh nice, I didn't think of that! I use that for horse archers but it could be incredibly potent with melee cav too!!
I do almost the same but cycle forth and back through enemy lines like making an 8 with enemy lines in the middle of this 8. So my cav doesn't stay long enough inside enemy lines to be drawn into close fights but still has its charge bonus and when enemy lines get lose I give the charge command. This keeps casualties low and makes a lot of fun.
This guide was both painful and fun to make! I learned so much and I really hope you can too from watching it. It's a bit longer that the usual, but I cut it down from 25 minutes to 20 because breaking it up into 2 videos was not an option. Also, I didn't label anything as a bonus because I felt like 60% of the video would be considered a bonus haha.
If you missed any of the previous 4 episodes in the series, you can find them on the playlist here: ua-cam.com/play/PLtLh7oY6l6_-imuXlvZSFiZErbNrG06Ol.html
Looking forward to seeing the javalry in action! (or javcav, whatever you find more appealing).
You showed the same table for Cavalry Line Charge as you did for Cavalry Line Hold.
So I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your time and dedication to this, but I do have to ask, in the Cav vs Melee infantry, why did you not test the compact square formation for infantry? With so many bodies packed together, would they not stop cav that entered the formation by the mid point, thus robbing many cavalry of their momentum?
@@mikhailfilitov1479 Lol I like that, it doesn't take forever to say :) There are a lot of Ls and Rs in Javelin Cavalry which can be tricky to say fast
@@Sprayer-px3tu Yeah that was a mistake, sorry about that. The final recap page is the most accurate one since I was using that and I must have forgotten to adjust the crop
I *really* liked the new way you're editing the table of the data. Laid out nice and clean so people can pause to watch, narrated accurately but also having the visual aid of colour coding red and green is great. I've been coming back to these videos heaps because there are so many little gems in them.
Thank you!! I'm glad this format worked although some of the table data was a bit small for my liking so I might change that up for the next video..
These formations and tactics tests are exactly what M&B needed all along.
We fight, but we, apparently (cav skein) don't know if we can perform better.
One can never trust intuition and logic when TaleWorlds Maths is at play lol
Before watching I hope Wedge formation performs well because as a Total War and Conqueror's Blade player I just carried that habit over and use my cav to charge in Skein all the time. It just feels and looks right. Although a proper Wedge formation would be really neat.
Edit: man that sucks
I feel your pain. I used skein and line so frequently!
Lmao
I feel same, bamboozled and betrayed. Question is, what if one uses realistic battles mod.
It's not that good in Total War either.
Your guides are absolutely lovely, but I must say that I would also love to see some actual gameplay from you where you apply your terrific knowledge in strategy and tactics to dominate as a Calradian Napoleon.
Thank you for watching! I do have a series I just finished recently, but I didn't apply any of these tactics in there since I completed that before starting these tests. I have another campaign that I'm hoping to start before the end of the month, so keep an eye out for that! It will be playing as Amir Timur (Tamerlane) and will be an extremely hard bandit run :)
@@Strat-Guides very cool, thank you for answering! Notifications are active :)
@@TheCillisSst Sweet, I'll do my best to get it out soon!
Here is a basic overview of the ruleset we will be following:
- Start with nothing (no money, weapons, armor, food, nothing)
- Start at war with all kingdoms including minor factions and in jail somewhere
- We aren't allowed to buy supplies from anywhere (peasants, caravans, towns, etc.) until we capture a fief, then we can trade with only our own fiefs.
- We can only convert prisoners, no hiring troops of any kind. Prisoners are limited to troops that cannot be recruited normally, so we can use bandits, mercenaries and minor faction units (also peasants, these are really important actually lol)
- No smithing to sell at any point, all money must be earned from loot, raiding, fiefs, etc.
I've done extensive testing and I finally figured out a way to make it work :D
I love how the Skein formation has become a meme on the channel.
Anyway, one of the weird things about cavalry in MnB (both Bannerlord and Warband) is that having your horse killed under you, historically, was a very bad thing. Not only did you lose the Ferrari of the day, but you are also liable to have yourself trapped under your own horse, breaking legs at best or breaking your spine at worst. Assuming of course the rider wasn't able to jump off his horse before that happen.
But of course, in MnB, the horse acts as an extra healthbar. This means that horse archers are just BEEFIER than normal archers, because the former doesn't have a decrease in accuracy. Historically, horse archers would charge within a hundred yards, shoot, and wheel away.
Anyway, just wanted to give my 2 florins. NOW GIVE ME BANDITLORD EPISODE 1, STRAT.
Oddly enough it's best on infnatry vs infantry battles and worst used with cavalry lol makes sense (TW Maths)!
Yeah good point, also there are no injuries to deal with until health goes to 0. It's funny how 1hp troop performs the exact same as 100hp troop, but that might be tough to model in game?
Haha I have to get the recap video for WC done first :) I just started on that last night at the same time I was uploading this one! The work never pauses for a moment, trust me!
@@Strat-Guides you could have your weapon and athletics skill decrease in-battle by .5% for every 1% of health lost. and have perks in athletics that mitigate to maybe a .25% decrease or something?
@@chappy4756 That's a good idea and would probably be easier to implement. Although maybe it would add a lot of processing power to have it tracked for each unit? I'm not really sure, I don't code at all lol But I like the idea. I'm sure people would complain about the damage not being localized (leg hits slow movement, arm hits slow swing speed, etc.)
@@Strat-Guides wasnt stamina a thing in warband? it might simulate some of it at least
Totally agree. They sould add fall damage when the horse is killed (and maybe a chance for the rider to be killed instantly?). That would balance the whole game while being more realistic. If they dont do it maybe a modder will?
So I came back to this one while developing some more "unorthodox" tactics during my "establish the vaegir kingdom" RP run-through and stumbled on a gold'y thanks to this vid.
With the pre assumption that the Vaegirs love 2h weapons, archers, and individual combat over formated line fights I was obviously having a bad day to massed vlandian charges that my small number of heavy cav just sucked up so many casualties trying to slow down for me.
So, I stuck a 2-deep line of heavy cav in front of the archer line in shield wall and put a clump of sturgian linebreakers in between the ranks. It was phenomenal. The vlandian charge stopped dead on the front rank of holding cav and then just MELTED when the linebreakers charged. 150 kills, 0 deaths.
Thanks strat, as always your vids are so pivotal to my continued success in this game.
Nice!! I do something similar, but I am going to try it your way because I generally keep my shield wall slighty ahead and get some casualties. I usually stick my cav in shield wall inside the shieldwall formation, but I think your way is more optimal! Thanks for sharing :)
There's one command missing there, and it's the one I often default to with cavalry: follow. It creates a long column behind you, which you can then use to manually charge the enemy from the flanks. It slaughters troops in line formation, and if you charge from the right infantry can't use their shields effectively.
Against another cavalry unit it helps outmanouvering them. You can attack their weak spots for massive damage or disrupt their formation to prevent their charge from gaining momentum.
It's micromanaging, but you can do it for just 1 or 2 charges and then give the charge command so you can focus on the rest of your troops.
Yeah great point! I will be testing the follow me command when we get to the mixed unit testing :)
I do kind the same, I tend to have a strong cavalry, atm I begin with intercepting enemy cavalry, that done the infantry usually just begun fighting, this allows to charge the back with a wide formation, loads of kills right there, pull back and repeat, basically shock cav tactics, the infantry and archers stay back, and when they engage I relegate command
I learned to fear the Menavilaton fairly early on. When you are riding into a line of infantry on horse back, those little bastards are about the only ones able to hit you. And when they do, they do some serious damage.
please test relative effectiveness of using the move command to put "Line" formation calv on top of the archer formation. Without cycle charging the archers go into melee mode and don't get to shoot the retreating calv in the back.
That's a good idea, I forgot to test just moving the formation on top of the other. I'll test it on the side today and try to get back to you on it.
Wonderful job. Just an unrealistically large amount of information, for which I am extremely grateful to you. Lots of new things for me.
I'm happy to help :) Once I get done with the unit vs unit testing, I'll make all of the data public for all to access as well in case anyone is curious!
This one I think is the most useful to me yet, because I've never been great at using cavalry as effectively as I know they *could* be. The shieldwall and square results are super interesting, and I had no idea the cataphracts could brace their spears like that. Thanks!
Yeah me too! I've integrated a lot of these into my recent play through and it made a huge difference. Actually, one thing that works wonders is to have your infantry in shield wall with cavalry in shield wall right behind them or even inside the infantry formation. Once the enemy cav hits the formation, they all melt away quickly! If they have a lot of cav, you can place horse archers right behind them since they seem to shoot through everything lol
Holy crap. You just changed my view of how I use my cav. I thought the same thing you did about the skein, so it's good to see I'm not the only one who thought that. Thanks for the info, man. I have been doing break even work at best, and that makes so much sense now.
I usually don't comment on UA-cam videos, but your channel is *criminally* underrated! Well done, especially with this battlefield tactics series! You deserve a ton more viewers.
I really appreciate the support! I'm the same way, I prefer to stay on the periphery :) Thank you for the kind words and I will continue to work hard!
Excellent work! Never would have thought to use shield wall formation. And interesting data on how archers fare better in loose vs the charge than in a tighter formation. I liked the triple ranked charges!
Thank you for watching! Bannerlord certainly has some interesting battles lol I'm not sure how they would translate in IRL battles though :)
@@Strat-Guides Well, attacking in waves is not unheard of, and can be effective. It's been used even in modern warfare.
@@miketrice533 Especially with ranged weapons, too many troops concentrated into one area make for easy targets. There is probably a logistics reason for it too although I don't know that much about it. You bring up a good point!
i think the reason why shield wall, square, and circle formations produce good results for melee engagements of most troop types is that the AI holds their shield up constantly in these formations.
a line charge has the AI spending more time swinging their swords than holding up their shields, so they get hit more often which makes the soldier go down quicker. a shield wall charge has the AI spending more time holding up their shields and a little less time swinging their swords, so the shield absorbs much more damage and the soldier can fight for longer. the best offense is a good defense, so to speak.
Yeah that's true, it's almost impossible to get around a shield in this game. I should put it on regular speed and just watch up close to see what's really going on. Great analysis though, I think you're probably right :)
@@Strat-Guides Why don't you put the Legionaire into shield wall?
@@SocuteRaptor I tried a couple different formations that didn't make it into the video, but in my experience they don't really do well unless they are given the charge command, regardless of the formation. I'll have to double check my database to see if I specifically ran that one, maybe it would help!
@@Strat-Guides I played this game like a year ago, back then, there is no pike brace, so the best way to counter an AI cavalry charge is to move my own cavalry in front to body block them. But early game without cavalry, shield wall is a must. There is no other choice.
@@SocuteRaptor Yeah it's tough to counter cavalry without your own cav. Even spear brace is not very reliable because it only works when they charge directly into them. Otherwise the pikes are totally useless lol. It seems like shock troops are the best counter for foot vs cav so far.
I appreciate you using different unit types and mixing up the numbers. The sizes of the units can very much change the outcomes of battles even in fairly close engagements.
Yeah that's true. Especially when it comes to cavalry. It's not common to see 100% cav army in the real game.
I use full Calvary. Currently 130 melee calvary and 118 horse archers. I take on armies 4 times my size and lose about 5 men. When a war breaks out I immediately go into enemy lines and attack any lord I find stopping them from making strong armies. At the start of a war between Western empire and batannia had captured over 30 lords right after the war started. Hear the end of that war 4 armies of 430-460 marched into my territory (at this time I had around 130 men) I crushed all of them as my men were experienced with while theirs were mostly just recruited. My calvary have wiped out the northern empire, southern empire, vlandia, and batannia.
Shield wall on cavalry certainly has its uses in normal battles as well. You can use cavalry and horse archers as mobile infantry/archer combos to ride out to a flank, put your horses in shield wall in front of your horse archers, then just treat them as a normal foot soldier army that can retreat quickly if need be.
Legionaries don't do well against cavalry. Despite having a short polearm, they seem to hate using it regardless of circumstance. I wish they would just give them normal javelins tbh. Other cultures like battania have an abundance of polearms on their troops, yielding much better results against pesky cavalry groups.
That's a solid idea. I wonder if the horse archers can fire through the shield wall too since they are cav? Those HA are cheaters lol
Yeah I noticed that, they rarely pull the Pilum out. It's a shame cause it does decent damage.
you just need to keep your infantry on shield wall so they don't get hit hard by the charge at all or 1 shot by couch lance. legionaries will throw their polearms and they only have 1. so if you hold fire they might pull it out and stab the cavs with it. the darkhans are in the same weird position but they have better throwing spears that do more dmg and are longer.
@@storm0fnova Oddly enough, in all the testing I did there wasn't a single Pilum that was thrown! I'm wondering if they changed the AI recently because I'm pretty sure I remember they doing that previously.
@@Strat-Guides yeah i think they made the ai not throw their last throwable or something like that. which is odd since legionaries and darkkhans only have the 1. i remember all the testing i did last year they threw their spears and if you time the volley right before the charge you see a nice span of greens. but it was months ago any things change too much.
@@storm0fnova Yeah I think they tweaked the AI at some point because I remember it being good with throwing weapons, then terrible. Now in today's patch it seems they fixed it again lol so here's to hoping!
I've had some Positive results with Column + Charge against enemy infantry. Cavalry punches through the enemy line and leaves a nice hole for my Infantry to Exploit.
So I tried column with the cavalry but I couldn't get it to work :( I suspect it's because I was trying with 500 haha I think the AI would have a much easier time with 50 - 100. I'll have to try it again with smaller numbers, thanks for the heads up!
@@Strat-Guides Possibly, also try splitting the force into one column to punch the hole and then a Skein behind it.
What about using column formation to charge along the archer line?
@@christianmunkjensen8817 So I tried column, but my cav got stuck in a giant circular ball lol I only have 10 - 15 following me and the rest were goofing off. I think if I did it again with less than 500 cav it might work :) I think it's a good idea though, more surface area for the charge.
It's always very nice to find one of your videos, they are very instructive. now, there are two tests I've missed in this vid:
- charging and then staying (in shield wall maybe) without charging back and forth, it seems to me like a good idea against both cav and archers
- charging archers from the flank. this is very often possible and I actually do it most of the times.
Thank you!
- That's a great point as the strength of shield was vs other cav is the close quarters. I'll have to keep that in mind for the mixed unit testing.
- So anything from the flank is great for minimizing casualties, since they will be focused in a different direction. My biggest concern there is compared to hitting directly on, the casualties inflicted are a bit less, so there is a tradeoff. I'm not sure which one would win, but it's definitely worth a test! I'll give it a shot when I get a chance this week :D
You are doing a great job, significally improved my gameplay after watching your guides.
I'm really happy to hear that, that's my main goal with the channel :D
Something I am fond of doing is to use elite heavy cavalry in an anti-infantry role. Not so good in real fights but a few expensive horsemen are a very satisfying way of dealing with looters.
The amount of testing for this one video alone you sir are a true lord among lords
Thank you for watching! It's a lot of work, but totally worth it I think :)
Was waiting for this one, cheers for the quality uploads!
Thank you for watching!!
I learn something I didn't expect on every one of these. Nice work.
Nice, that's my goal!! I learned a lot myself, especially this guide in particular. My cav utilization was quite bad!
Welp i guess i wont be using skein formation anymore, simply fascinating testing !!! Well done sir !!! One thing id like to see (probably gonna have to be a mod) is the ability for the player to use cavalry in a siege battle. Id love to be able to sally out from a secondary gate to cycle charge the attackers/break the siege equipement and then fall back behind the walls. Altho id imagine that would be some major work (AI pathing, increase of siege map size, bigger spawn area and making sure units dont spawn on roofs and i could go on).
Now for the mounted archers/skirmishers, thats gonna be a good one (they all are really)
I know, I will probably still use skein from time to time just based on pure habit lol I'll have to retrain my brain :)
100% agree, that would be such an amazing thing to see. I think there are many cases where a sally out would be appropriate, but lack of mobility makes it less-so.
I'm excited to test the ranged cav as I have a few ideas that I want to test out that might change the way I build my army!
I’m currently doing a all cav/ horse archer play through
Your vids have definitely helped
This is mesmerizing. Thank you for your hard work! I was always sitting scratching my head if I should use any fancy formations :)
just wanted to comment that I love the content! Love the effort you put into these vids, it really shows. Keep up the work, and hope to see more from you!
Thank you for the words of encouragement! I appreciate it :D
I found these tips to be the best ones i have gotten, thank you :)
I saw someone mentioning how cavalry back in the day would use a diamond formation for attacks, I would bet what makes the circle formation plus charge work is exactly why diamond was used. Initial wave lands, then the back half as well, giving a layered strike doubling your troop concentration in the middle formations of the opponent.
That's a good point - all that weight pushing through a thin line at a single point, no way the formation holds!
@@Strat-Guides exactly! I would bet manually controlling the formation to strike then rotate out and then back for another strike would be pretty clean. Maybe. I saw this at work, so I can't wait to get home and test it 😂😂
i think where skein shines is by making it easier for the rest of your cav to get thru the enemy line and not get bogged up, keeping the momentum going so they can run somewhere else, which can arguably be more important, especially if you start with a skein with an initial charge not expecting much damage with that, but then following about 30-50 yards behind with a line of cavalry to ensure maximum coverage of the enemy line. start on your side with the line of cav infront of you and the chevron infront of that (conversely you can lead the charge at the head of the chevron with the line behind it all). order the chevron to advance get ready to set the cav line behind to advance. advance. when the chevron is about at the right distance tell it to charge. then tell the line to charge. this can be followed up with other dedicated cavalry lines to charge or having a light cavalry pick off individual troops or to have your infantry rush in in whatever particular fashion you like. another chevron and line tactic that works (with the same setup, just maybe a slightly longer delay) is to do a hammer and anvil cavalry attack. get the chevron to go thru the enemy, then get the line to charge and then get the chevron to charge again after its ready.
That's a good point! I just wish the TW Physics wasn't so janky lol
@@Strat-Guides do you do videos on multifaceted tactical strategies? ive seen some other vids on yours and i like seeing when you combine formations and movements to properly utilize a formation or tactic
@@elijahoconnell So I have 2 more big topics on my list before I start making EU4 and HOI4 content - how to make/manage a kingdom and finishing off the tactics series. For the tactics series I'm going to be covering how to fight with a full army and testing many of the tactics discovered in these individual unit guides and some of them are pretty micro-intensive and complex!
once again, a really cool and apreciated video. Thanks man!
No problem, thank you for watching! I really appreciate all the support from everyone :)
Thanks for another terrific video. Your Bannerlord content is really top shelf.
thank you, I appreciate that!!
Skein, you were the chosen one
I disagree because horses are powerful but it’s not a car.it would be simply unfair if you could trot through formations.There’s two possible compromises though.We could have it to where when you hit an infantry unit you lose all your speed and A knock them prone B deal more damage.
Haha I should have brought back the star wars scene again, but I just used it in the archer video. That's a good one though!!
Yeah charge damage is so weak in game. It would take being trampled 25 times or so do down someone, which seems absurd lol I'm pretty sure the human body can't handle 24 charges and still survive only to die on the 25th :)
I think having them mow a whole line down would also be unrealistic, but I do think they should do more damage for at least the first 1 or 2 infantry they come into contact with. 2 - 4 damage is less than the looters stones and frankly I would rather get pelted by a rock than run into by a horse at full speed :D
@@Strat-Guides they should do more trample damage, but at the cost of slowing down, like irl - cav literally bogging down in deep inf formations where they are hopeless and surrounded. In summary - devaststing first impact plus uber morale damage even before the connection, after it massive slowdown where they are dead if enemy endured or without their own inf
somewhat unrelated to this video: when using a shield wall to stop enemy army for other units (specially archers) to flank, i usually *make shield wall fall back 10 steps while simultaneously telling my flanks to advance to position because aggro is already off them*. This halves the time needed to get them in position. As a bonus, i call melee cavalry back and forth for big charges in a way that doesnt trap the enemy to diminish our casualties and so working the enemy army's morale down while leaving them room to flee and get shot in the back
I never knew spreadsheets could be so sexy, but that's the power of Bannerlord.
Normally what I do albeit convoluted, I split my cavalry into two equal units, especially if I am playing defensive or am outnumbered. I split them into flanks on either side of the advancing enemy. I have my infantry in the middle and ranged behind them and their shield wall. As they approach my cavalry slams into the sides drawing the outlying soldiers attention , my infantry holds the line and archers pick them off through the chaos.
Iam level 6 clan tier so my regular party is around 200-220 and I have around even splits between Calvary Archers and Infantry. Sometimes I skimp on the infantry depending on the faction I face, I go with more archers versus heavy horse factions like the Aserai. An abundance of archers usually makes mincemeat out of them lol.
Haven’t lost yet despite being outnumbered 3 to 1 at some points.
(Edit)
I also play as Vlandia so my crossbowmen are high level and my Knights are pretty formidable. I usually recruit sturgian infantry though because their heavy armor seems to hold up better in line clashes.
Thanks man, I literally searched your videos for this yesterday lol
Nice, perfect timing!! Next week will be ranged cavalry, but not sure which day I'll have it finished by. I'm working on the recap episode for the WC series for the next couple of days.
Your findings about shield wall are quite interesting, as they are historically accurate. When on the defensive, irl cavalry would cluster as close as possible.
Thats some surprising results. I pretty much exclusively used Skein as well.
The hardest part will be to untrain my brain lol I'm sure I will still instinctively use skein from time to time :P
@@Strat-Guides Haha you and me both man 😅
Solid video man!
I've been looking forward to this
Hopefully it's helpful!
i started yesterday watching your videos.... with this one i achived 100% of your channel lmao, i would love to see a money making guide, thats where i strugle the most, thanks for all the info dude
its pretty insane i watched all of them in fucking 2 days,it seems i really like being informed on what i do on a game lol
Lol nice, I wish there was a steam unlock for that :D Come to think of it, Bannerlord needs some unlocks to collect!
Okay got it, I do have that one on my list. The easiest answer is smithing, but for some that's a bit too easy to cheesy. Outside of smithing, it's tough until you get a town or two. It's like a vicious cycle - you need to be in combat all the time to make enough money to afford your army, but you need a big army to be able to win in combat, which means... it repeats over and over lol
@@Strat-Guides exactly, thats what i strugle with because i hate smithing lol, it feels like a must in a build and have to spend skill points that could be used somewhere else. thanks for the fast reply. cheers :)
@@NachoDasso Yeah I know exactly what you mean. I don't really use smithing anymore because it makes the game a bit boring. Struggling some keeps things interesting :)
I think you just have to use a combination of things: workshops, battle loot sales, prisoner sales, etc. to make enough until you get some fiefs that spit off cash. No problem!
I like using two separate cav formations, both spread out and stacked about 5 units deep and width changes depending on how many I have on hand but at least 10
Great vid. I would really like to know how the cavalry weapons and horses effect their fighting. Lance length? One handed verse polearm? Small steppe horses verse larger destriers?
In my experience, cav are better when using one handed against cav or inf that are tight, like where your cav get stuck into the enemy lines and cant really cycle charge or get some distance. But, in longer battles where reinforcements come through, and troops are more widely spread, lances and spears are great for picking off exposed troops. Having smaller horses closer to the ground also make polearms kills against foot troops easier i think. And what about charge damage? Just some ideas bro :)
These are all excellent questions and I just don't have a good answer to any of them (I have some ideas, but without data they would be unfounded).
In the very near future, I'll be doing unit vs unit testing and I think I should have a much better idea at that point.
Those are very good points. I'm sure the charge damage adds up over time. Most AI won't 1-hit kill, so if they get bumped for 4 damage 5 or 6 times, that might be enough to take time to kill from 3 hits down to 2 or 2 to 1 and so on so it probably does make a difference.
@@Strat-Guides god bless you brother, this is some real impressive dedication
I usually use skein for cavs and circle for horse archers, but these results are shocking. I have to change things up now lol. Great video as always.
I know what you mean, it's going to be hard for me to unlearn the muscle memory and habits lol Thank you for watching!!
@@Strat-Guides ❤
@@ruoante7660
Do you feel like Bannerlord is ready for full release? Also, do you plan to expand content to other games? I love your content but am currently not playing Bannerlord (elden ring, you know).
No, not yet but they are running short of time if they want to keep to their schedule of Q2 release.
Yeah I do! I have a few games on the radar, but need to finish up a few more guide in Bannerlord before I feel okay about moving on. I picked up Elder Ring as well, it's pretty fun! It's my first souls game, so the learning curve was pretty rough. It took me about 3 hours to get past Margit lol that was a unique gaming experience for sure :P
My beautiful Vlandian Cavalry thank you sir! Gone are the days of the Skein, All hail the impenetrable square!
Haha down with Skein! I wish we could remove it from the formations so I didn't accidentally keep using it out of habit :P
This was great though I would have liked to have seen details on what troop types were being used. "Cavalry" is a bit nebulous. You did mention Legionaries and Menavliaton (though not whether they were regular or Elite Menavliaton) but I'd be curious to see whether there was a significant difference in results when pitting a given cavalry force against Fian Champions as opposed to some other kind of archers. Having said that, I do understand the video was less about specific troop types and more about effective formations. Still, having that information would be of benefit, I think.
P.S. Watch for the misspelling of "slein" instead of "skein" in the heading overlays.
Oh sorry, the unit info was in the data presented after most of the tests, although towards the end of the video I don't think I used them so great point, I should have added that in! I used all T5 units, so Cataphract for the cav, legionary and menavlion for infantry and Paletine archers.
I have already started doing some of the work for unit vs unit testing, which I think will answer a lot of the questions you might have :)
Yeah a couple people mentioned that haha It would have been more appropriate to misspell it as slain, but alas it was a typo that I missed in my final review of the editing.
From my test Cavalry with shield wall and charge command is best and it seems from your test, square seems solid as well. The reason is they are less likely to get killed by archers, skirmishers or horse skirmishers/archers on the battlefield due to having the shield up most of the time protecting from projectiles. Also as in case of infantry having your troops with their shield up increases their combat skills somehow blocking more and being less likely to get hit which means less casualties.
100% agree here! It also seems they do better in melee combat as well since the AI tends to swing aimlessly so having a shield up most of the time helps them out a lot.
Nice. I usually have equally distributed footmen/archers and cav. I use the cav to run behind the enemy while the infantry charges and the archers advance. When the battle commences, inf takes its toll archers holding ground behind and cav cirle charge withdraw charge.
Do you typically target enemy archers with the cav?
@@Strat-Guides usually both archers and inf
@@dlab1978 I used to avoid infantry personally, but from these tests it seems as long as they don't have a lot of shock troops or braced inf then it's a really good trade to make!
I’ve been waiting for this video from you! Now my knightly order can be better.
Haha yes, let the hooves shaking the ground drive fear into your enemy! :D
This is an infantry thing but its a tech I use against lower tier units to mine. I tell my infantrh to go to a position that is either directly on the enemy inf or slightly past them. My inf run and muscle their way through and I give the charge order. Lets my archers pelt the "from behind" as the enemy inf is forcer to turn to fight without ever really having to move the archers as much.
That's an interesting idea, no need to wait for a flank that way :D
This guy is a Bannerlord philosopher
You wanna say, that F1+F3 was ultimate spear cav only tactic all this time?
LOL This time, Sun Tzu was right ;)
To me cavalry is best used for nobles hunting. It goes like this:
-get party size 100-200
-party is entirely on horses. Can be cheap to reduce costs. What matters is speed on the map and battlefield.
-plunder enemy villages, and wait for enemy nobles to arrive
-once a noble is nearby, pause plundering, and chase him down
-nobles on lone patrol usually have cheap troops. But the sheer speed advantage allows to smash even veteran troops, so the battle is easy when manually commanded. Charge, retreat, charge, retreat.
-execute enemy noble
-rinse and repeat until entire kingdom falls. When you start meet mostly female nobles in battle, it means you're around halfway through with the kingdom.
Also If I play as Empire, I don't execute imperial lords, unless they piss me off by besieging my cities.
Another note is to NOT become a faction leader, as almost everyone will hate you. You can rule from the backseat with tons of influence anyway, and you can always orginise "an accident" that kills your ruler. Personally, I only bother with becoming a leader after already having conquered the world.
Good work on this vid Strat
Thank you!! This one was a bit tough as I wasn't expecting it to take this long to do. I think it was worth it though as melee cav was certainly my weakest area in bannerlord.
This video was really good. I always made my cavalry go to skein. Won't do it again.
Gonna check move of your videos!
Thank you for watching! Hopefully the other videos are useful as well :D
Very interesting video again. I am so happy I found your channel.
Some things I am curious about and didn't see in the video:
Did you consider charging the archer line from the side and not the front? Especially when it's a very long line. I would imagine that should provide the best result as in real life flanking is really important compared to frontal attack but I could be completely wrong in the world of Bannerlord.
For the Legionary tests 2 questions:
1. Why not use the shield wall. It would seem the best formation to be able to hold against cavalry.
2. Did the legionaries have fire at will command or where they only on melee mode?
Love the videos man keep up the good work
it's important to note that imperial cataphracts have 2h polearms which means on shield wall they can't use their spears. while all other cavalry with 1h spear can still use spear and have couchlance during shield wall. the shield wall charge is a lot better offensively with other faction cavalries.
Also never really got into using Skien might as well call it slein cause it's a dead formation i never use.
defensively the shields walls allow cavalry to be much more durable as their shields absorb a lot of the attacks, while not slowing them down like infantry. but offensively you want to have as much contact area as possible during charge (as shown by your 3 line method being most effective, 2 rows per line enough, u don't want more rows of cavalry per line of charge or they just run into the horse in front of them and come to a dead stop). the longer the line the better the result due to more points of contact (wrapping around the flank). the cavalry ai tends to bunch up and run into each other coming to dead stops. a while ago i ran some tests using tier 4 imperial cavs vs tier 6 fians. just checked the initial charge. did everything between narrow column to 2 row super long shield wall and found the latter offered the best result. of course from your testing i can tell if i split them into multiple lines and cycle charge it would be better still.
another trick is i just run my cavalry through enemy formation. without issuing any command. this way i found they stay in formation the best and half way through the move, i tell them to turn and face the enemy once they get to the other side so they are immediately ready for another round.
Yeah that's a great point about the shields. I did some extra testing afterwards and couch lance didn't seem to have a big impact on cavalry vs cavalry charges, only if one side was holding ground and even then it was a tiny difference. There was a huge difference with couch lancing vs infantry though!
Agreed, spreading them out seems to be optimal compared to a tight bunch that doesn't cover the enemy line.
That's a good idea, you could issue the move order well past the line to avoid them getting hung up but they will still charge once they get close to the enemy without needing to give the command. I'll have to try that one out!
@@Strat-Guides with my experience it's interesting that in cavalry vs cavalry they don't use the spears much if at all. i had a group on shield wall and the imperial cataphracts got as many kills as the other noble cavs that had the spear vs horse archers. i think it's due to the horse rider ai only able to aim their couchlance low. which results in like 60% misses, 30% hitting the horse, and once in a blue moon they'd hit a horseman in the leg/foot. might just be anecdotal evidence but i think pretty much every time i got downed by a lance it's in the leg
@@storm0fnova True, the only time I notice they use it is when I see a horse rear up but it's pretty rare. I'm wondering if it's certain formations that let them use it but not others? I should pay closer attention to that. Yeah the AI aim with couch lance is odd, I noticed that as well.
Thanks Strat! Very informative!!
Thank you for watching and all the support you've given me :D I appreciate it!
Feel like slien formation would be great for attacking the already engaged infantry in the rear
Wasn't that its historical purpose too?
I'm not 100% positive on the historical purpose, but I'm pretty sure skein was used often with cavalry. I've heard of infantry formations using it as well, the one I can recall was the "barbarian tribes" using it against Rome to put pressure on a specific section of a line.
As for Bannerlord, it seems like the straight formations perform better overall although I'm not entirely sure why. I do know that skein is difficult to judge how wide the formation is to make sure you have it wide enough to cover the enemy's length.
@@Strat-Guides It makes sense that skien formation would be good at penetrating an enemy formation from the rear. As for infantry, Hannibal famously used the crescent formation in the battle of Cannae and won.
The problem with Bannerlord is that the numbers in general are too small to use any historical formations. At most you have 500 men on your side and just a single legion had around 4-5 thousand soldiers not counting the cavalry during the manipular period (I think.) Most setpiece battles had at least 10k soldiers on either side. Compared to that, even the most epic battles in Bannerlord are just skirmishes.
@@ashutoshtripathi. That's a great point. Combat in Bannerlord also happens at such an insane pace that's probably not realistic at all, which makes maneuvering even harder because by the time you flank, the main battle is over.
@@Strat-Guides Looks like Square formation is gonna be my go to in Cav vs Cav lol... never used circle or square but those results surprised the hell out of me.
@@Strat-Guides I think that skein might be so terrible because the staggered first-contact with the enemy formation allows multiple enemies to strike the leading skein'ers simultaneously while also giving the enemy a brief period to wind up for another swing before the skein's next in line make contact, basically putting the skein's center at a huge disadvantage right from the start which culminates in the center falling apart very quickly and allowing the enemy to cut off and surround the left and right side of the skein, granting them the numerical advantage of a surround not just right from the start at the center of the formation but also as the center collapses, getting worse and worse as it goes on.
The way the AI handles reinforcements from its group is also pretty poor, incapable of handling the heavy losses to the center of the skein.
Also, flanking can work if you set it up beforehand. Keep your flankers off to the side far enough and in low enough quantities that the enemy doesn't focus on them enough and orient their army to counter your flankers. Then it's just a matter of timing, capitalizing on the small differences in move speed and riding close enough to other enemy formations to save time, but not close enough to get intercepted.
That's pretty common in Total War, zipping your cav just barely past or between enemy formations to get to the enemy's juicy center or backline, and also involves the tactic of push'n'pull with your cav to force the enemy's army into disarray, opening up all kinds of opportunities if you're quick enough to take advantage of them.
I found hilarious that during the menavlion testing one of the menavlions mounted one of the horses.
Lol that cheeky guy :) "I'ma get up out of here now..."
Some of these I draw the line with powergaming because I know I would feel very silly having my cavalry stand and receive a charge straight on just because it works better.
Also, the thing about Skein is that it's a formation designed to break through a line, and since bannerlord's physics and mass model allows horses to go through formations easily by default, there's literally no advantage in using it. Ironically it may be more useful when used by infantry, being told to go through a formation to make an opening.
The best way to use skein is to hit the infantry flanks at an angle with two groups. Hit archers stright from the sides, on their flanks, and move the calvary all the way down their line. I can take 50 cav and kill 200 archers with a handful of losses.
All this has done is reinforce my preference for cataphriacs and albertrist, I probably spelt both wrong, as you shown, cataphriacs have a in built counter to calvary in the on foot brace ability, as for albertrist, or heavy shield crossbow men, being able to shield wall in tough situations and switch to melee is a great counter to archer weaknesses
This likely changes a lot with cav that can couch vs. not as the catapharacts are primarily built around getting "stuck".
What's interesting is that historically, I believe the wedge formation WAS pretty tight knit unlike the ones in the game, not to mention the addition of physics would bend the formation quite significantly. I never really understood skein as particularly effective use of the physics system tbh.
So I also tested with Bannerknights afterwards just to make sure things were still relevant and the biggest difference was Banner Knight vs foot troops. The couch lance seems to have issues against enemy cavalry, especially when they are moving. With cataphracts 100 vs 100 it took 5 charges to disperse archers on hold fire but only 3 charges with Banner knights. Fortunately, the AI still acts the same regardless of which unit is being ordered, so the tests are still relevant, but the time to kill will be much shorter for cav vs foot troops when there is enough room to properly cycle charge.
@@Strat-Guides Neat!
Nice! Awesome work.
All I gotta say is these tests really really make me want MnB co op and versus at the scale we see in the game!
@@saugatmanandhar6473 You have no idea how excited I would be if they release co-op or even PvP using large armies! I would probably pee my pants a wee bit tbh lol
i use Cavalry for disrupting archers and formations, for example shield walls advancing into my archers (having my ponies flanking from their rear). also they are good for stalling troops to have more time to position, and then retreat them.
I always use cavalry for hit and run attacks and also preferably from the flanks or from behind. Or to harass scattered formations do screw the morale. No point to use cavalry like infantry. And i use wedge formation only for frontal attacks to split infantry and get behind them if i can not go around. Also cavalry works better in smaller groups, 20-30
Hey mate, your channel got me back into Bannerlord 2, have not played it since launch :) Just a quick settings question, what battle size do you play on? Curious how this would effect tactics/reinforcements. All the best out there.
Nice, welcome back! 1.7.0 has been a great patch so it's a good time. They have not release one in a couple months so we may be due for another patch soon!
So I keep it on 1,000 unit battles and it actually makes a huge difference. A couple patches ago I tried it out on 600 because one of their "hotfixes" ruined the optimization and I was getting 1FPS or less in big battles. I noticed on the smaller battles, a good fighting main character can make a significant impact on the battle because it's a much smaller battle size and they last significantly longer due to reinforcements. It was much easier to win battles for me anyhow, not sure if that matches other's experience.
In Multiplayer 'Captain Battle Mode' you would do well as cavalry to utilize F1 - F5 'Retreat' order.
You move the cavalry where you want them to attack first, then begin the engagement by 'Retreating', keeping the men tight, and they can melee intercept the enemy on their own very well.
They will play a defensive game intelligibly while wandering away from the main battle.
If your cavalry is fighting scattered infantry, use F1-F4 'Advance' order to melee the scattered enemy infantry. Aggressively
If your cavalry is fighting enemy cavalry, use F1-F5 'Retreat' order to pull their cavalry away from the main battle. Defensively
Their cavalry will be at a disadvantage against your 'Retreating' melee cavalry, under most conditions.
Interesting info, I'm going to have to give that a go in single player! So with the retreat command in MP, they don't actually leave the battlefield then I assume? I single player they will if you let them go long enough.
@@Strat-Guides That's the best part: They will back away from the main battle. The enemy cav commander doesn't know what is happening. He allows his cavalry to follow yours. Your cavalry rides up onto the mountain side on the edge of the map. They cannot pass through the map edge but linger on the slopes. The enemy cavalry will be baited onto these slopes. If their cavalry is heavier and slower, or your cavalry is lighter and faster turning, then you will beat theirs. It takes a while for the enemy commander to realize the situation and fall back. Khuzait light cavalry naturally has superior turning and melee fighting so they do the best in this tactic, swirling alongside the map edges.
@@Strat-Guides Also your channel is very cool, I found your channel looking for the types of M.P. 'Captain Battle' Pro Tips like what I had previously commented. Your channel isn't quite tailored to 'Captain Battle' mode, understandably, but it's full of golden nuggets!
@@truthseeker-heyoka That's fascinating stuff! I appreciate you sharing it. Good point about Khuzait, their horses always annoyed me because they were so slow but they are very maneuverable...
@@truthseeker-heyoka Sadly I have not tried MP out yet as I have had to stay on the Beta branch for all of the guides. But soon I'll be done with the majority of them and will probably load up a bunch of mods and try some MP. I appreciate you watching and glad to hear there is still some info to be had from them :)
I chose to play with banner knights only on my main character, and I notice that even though, skein formation is for cavalry, its performance is quite poor. Your video helps a lot. Thank you!
You're using the 2nd worst cavalry, be careful with it.
@@DestroyerOfOgis if I am not mistaken Vlandian Cavalry is known for its charge dmg?
@@Cozonac3000 Known for being on par with Battanian cavalry.
@@DestroyerOfOgis i did not played with other cavalry apart from the aserai and the sturgian ones. I am still a new player, but I find vlandian cavalry better and also because I like knights in general.
@@Cozonac3000 Oh. I will inform you that the Sturgian Druzhinnik Champion is the best tested cavalry.
I suggest you get the title of Spirit of the Law of Bannerlord! So nice!
Lol yeah! SoTL is the GOAT :)
I made a khuzait warrior for starting a campaign, just invested on horse archers only. A few months after, i got myself 140 khan's guard horse archers, i can intercept any army, and eradicate foot soldiers without taking any losses
Yeah I really struggled to find a good counter to the Khan's guards. I'm just thankful the AI doesn't deploy them en masse lol!
@@Strat-Guides i mean it's litterally how gengis khan conquered 3/4th of the known world isn't it
@@jeanladoire4141 Good point... lol
Why do I like your content so much?
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm also quite happy about it :D
Skein and line formations are best used to drive through a hole in a formation such as circle or break up a line and then following up with infantry to enable an envelopment of the broken lines flanks.
That's a good point, the charge itself might not be the most damaging but if it disrupts the infantry line it could result in higher KDR overall. I'll have to test that out!
@@Strat-Guides The key to taking out units faster is to hit units rather than their sheilds. If you step into units you make more contact with the unit itself. If charging with an animal your horse blocks attacks easier. If you are moving forward it is harder for the enemy to hit you as the weapon attacks are blunted... attacks do more damage if they are fully deployed. and they do more damage if they hit while advancing at the end of the attack type depending on attack type. Get a first strike also can stun your enemy giving you an advantage on attack, so getting a first strike gives you an operational advantage. If I want to take a position I use advance, while if I am about to reach a unit in melee combat I will change to attack by ordering a charge on the nearest enemies .. maneuvering can be done with advance as it simply moves the units forward to a position. Charge has the units pick an attack point and advance to them. Advance prioritizes movement to a point while charge initiates an attack. Units that do well on advance likely are sheild units with counter attack ability they likely are better at eating the intial attack they are engaged to.
@@WilliamAshleyOnline I've noticed that as well regarding advance - the shields seem to make up for the lack of aggression.
Also, I wonder if ordering cavalry to run through the enemy would help at all rather than charging? Maybe clicking on a mountain behind the enemy, possibly getting them in and out the back before they get stuck.
Super interesting information
Thank you for watching!
I think the reason Skein doesnt work as well as it should is the lack of a proper moral and organisation system, whats there does not take into account of how formation cohesion and cavalry shock should function. Infact i believe there is a shield wall related upgrade you can get quite early that makes shielded infantry resistant to cavalry charges which is totally bonkers, yet spears work as intended in this case.
I 100% agree with this! Total War has the morale hit when you attack from a flank and other scenarios that I think Bannerlord should certainly have. I'm wondering if it's because of the complexity of having individual units instead of a "formation" like Total war? On a related topic, horses should also have some fear as they didn't traditionally charge into a wall of spears lol
@@Strat-Guides Good point with the horses, tho if you note the armor on some of them espicially the Catapracts, the horses are blinded a plenty, they would not know what they run into :P
@@Mephaistus Lol poor beasts. Although I've read that warhorses back then were equivalent to someone's house so I doubt someone would intentionally put them at a great risk.
In my opinion, not trying to counter argue your data, but cavalry is all about pisitioning and timing.
I am trusting the delegate comand, not sure but If you use a companion or family member they seem to also gain tactics exp. Atleast in a army vs army battle as a comandar
I feel that they need to add more damage to cavalry charges as the main threat from cavalry was the devastating charges. You should be able to get a lot of value by cycle charging with a large group of cavalry and be able to disrupt and destroy shield wall formations with the exception of spear shield wall formations. This would buff cavalry but then the maintenance cost can be increased and food requirements increased to maintain the horses and balance out the buffs. This would, at least in my opinion, make the game more realistic and strategic with cavalry. Also, after watching the braced pikemen, what if you kept 2 rows of it facing in opposite directions so that no matter where the cavalry charge from they face the same deadly defense?
There is some mods that do that, I need to try them out to see how good it is. I would like to see cav as more effective, but also more rare/expensive.
Great question about the pikes, I actually did try that one! The problem was that most of the cav that broke through ended up coming back to the line slow enough to not take brace damage. They didn't cycle charge far enough back and ended up destroying the back line :(
this was so intriguing to watch even though I'm a player that just presses F6 at the start of each battle and goes ham on the enemy with a two handed axe
Lol nice, well at least you know why the AI does so poorly now then :) I know what you mean, it's so easy to get sucked into a battle!
Hey pretty helpful data, since I'm one of those skein formation users, haha. But to be fair, if the skein would be a bit more pointed and the flanks would be a bit more towards the center I think it's a better skein.
Quick question: Is it an idea to run behind the enemy lines and call for "follow me"? Or is the AI too passive while in that command? My thought would just be that they try to pile up more since they are riding towards one goal, which is you. Idk but it'd be interesting to see in a test :-)
Yeah follow me works pretty well. I find that giving manual move commands works best (giving a move commands that goes through the enemy formation you want to charge), then follow me, then charge command last.
@@Strat-Guides awesome!
Very good video, as always. I wonder why you didn't test engaging from the flank going to the other flank. Instead of a front charge, make a side charge. It seems to work quite good in my playthroughs
Yeah that's a good point, to be honest I just forgot about it. I already had about 30 minutes of stuff to show in the guide and I chopped it down to 20 minutes because it was just too long. I may do a short follow up video testing a few more things because there are a couple other things that people brought up as well that should have been tested. It's just a big topic and I think I didn't do it enough justice!
i'm not sure but there might be a problem with troop facing and advance, specifically with circle formation. it looks like the circle is facing backwards (due to face enemy default instead of face direction) and this is causing the formation to constantly push the rear forward.
it might cause different results if the circle formation was told to face a specific direction to prevent rotation, which is something i do to keep the formation more stable (for infantry at least)
Interesting idea, I didn't consider that! From my observations, advance calculates a specific point in the circle formation and another specific point for the enemy formation and does it's best to keep those 2 points together. The problem with that is it forces a lot of troops to the rear where no enemy is present. It's still a usable command, but I would probably give the charge command a second or two before they collide.
thanks a lot for the video, really changed how i will use cavalry in the future. It would be nice if one day the "mass" of a formation could effect battle, so that the depth of a formation could actually prevent cav from just charging clean though. One question, what is the mod you're using to test your battles? Or are you just utilizing the normal custom battle option in native?
Yeah that's exactly what I thought after doing these tests! It's amazing at how effortlessly the enemy can rip through a formation as if there was nothing there.
So I'm using custom battles and the RTS mod (the one that is part of RBM mod on Nexus).
Thank you for watching!
@@Strat-Guides thanks!
Вы также можете спешивать всадников, используя их лошадей как живой щит. Возможно, вам понравится выстраивать спешенных banner knights в круг, оставляя пустое пространство внутри круга заполненным лошадьми (лошади не сбегут из замкнутого круга).
infantry shield wall advance
archers lose formation advance
cavalry+horse archers column formation and follow me.
take em around smashing in this order: horse archers, archers, infantry.
works every time
I know most of this testing is done to combat the AI which is usually brain dead, but I would love to try some of these ideas and test to see how they compete against other's ideas. It's doable because with RTS mod I can control both sides. That would be a really fun series of videos! Totally useless, but I think it would be fun :)
I've always been a bit disappointed that the cavalry charge isn't a bit... Smarter than it is. Ideally you'd want your cavalry to break through the formation and then start veering out to the sides for slightly angled side-charges once the formation is broken. For the lack of a better word, I'll call it the blooming flower formation.
The advantage of breaking through the center and then veering outwards is that you can maximize the charge damage enemies take before they have time to reposition themselves.
The subsequent side charges allow your cav to have a greater front than the enemy infantry while they try to maneuver into a new position to face the cav.
You're minimizing the damage taken and maximize the momentum while breaking through the massed and braced middle and then take advantage of a scattered infantry formation rather than allowing them to turn and rebrace in massed conditions.
Whoa, I knew Mena's were scary but didn't realize they could catch horses after their charge.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but One interesting thing about holding is it defaults to the "face this direction" command. For the dismounted Capheracts, if it were set to "face enemy" things may have gone differently
Stupid question, is there a special way to chain commands, such as ordering your cavalry into a shield wall followed by charging in that formation, or do you simply give one command after the other?
Nope, I've tried that too :( Especially with move orders. You just have to wait and time them manually.