The forward position of the TT bike is not only more aero, but also save the legs for the running portion to come. The backward seat position allows higher power delivery (especially uphill) and is more comfortable, but fatigues prevalently the same muscles as running does.
The reoriented hose blocks the mounting bolt, meaning you would not be able to adjust the caliper alignment once bled. My solution would be to instead bolt the caliper from the other end through the fork, similar to how the rear caliper is mounted to the chainstay. A clip on shroud to the front of the fork could then keep it aero, and protect the bolts from corrosion.
I've stopped half way Mr Bikotic Sir - you are making great points, and the graphic presentation is stunning. IMHO you are on to something, but I have the urge to intervene as a retired engineer. I'm only familiar with the Shimano calipers, but their design is flawed. We don't just need the hose behind the fork, we need a different solution. You see, the top entry of the hose is the problem. Because air is less dense than fluid, the bleed point on the caliper needs to be at the top, and hose entry at the bottom - that's why people are finding them a nightmare to bleed - gravity can't assist. The engineering requirement points to a solution where the fluid is fed to the bottom of the caliper through a port from the fork rather than from a top entry hose in the wind. I've now finished watching, it got a bit surreal but fun all the same.
@@bikotic ... Thank you, and it's difficult to resist the temptation to argue it. I have a rim brake Emonda (really light- great bike). I bought some winter wheels for it (Vision Team 30s) that have a coating on the brake tracks - with those on it stops at least as well as my disc brake Orro Gold STC (and pack it in with the biscuit jokes) 😂
@@bikotic new cyclists changed the spelling from brakes to breaks i've noticed. it isn't about breaking efficiency as much as it is about confidence and stopping power in wet conditions. it is probably a safe bet none of them has ever actually attempted to stop a race bike in the wet because indoor cycling is where it's at. somehow this means rim breaks are obsolete now and pretty soon kids will learn how to bleed breaklines before riding their little aerobikes.
My concern with moving the hose to the "back of the fork" position is that it would compromise fork's strength/durability. Aero is nothing compared to how much forces affect the area when braking. I have crashed my bike due to fork breaking above calipers and that's an awful way to crash (straight with face to ground without warning). You could overbuild the hole like the recent mad0ne, but there are already photos circulating with the seat post broken.
To be precise, Greg Lemond won the Tour de France in 1989 by 8 seconds in the final classification, but he started the time trial on the last day with a deficit of 50 seconds behind Laurent Fignon. Which means GL was 58 seconds faster than LF over only 24.5 kilometers, not only 8. So it was more than the equivalent of a pencil that held Fignon back.
The way I understand aerodynamics is that 1. aero is not predictable, you must test everything 2. the slightest change in shape can have dramatic effects on aerodynamics 3. you want the slipstream to stay as close to the bike as possible I suspect, because of 3, the tube sticking in the turbulent air already being generated by the rotating wheel, the tube makes either near as makes no difference, or no difference whatsoever to the air travelling between the fork. It may also be that because of 3, moving the tube to behind the fork as you have may suddenly cause the air to suddenly detach creating dirty air and drag, and so 1 should require that you test and see what the differences are. Although, maybe this is the secret that saves you 200W over the course of 200 miles at a constant 10kph when the southerly crosswinds blow ever westward while doing a cheeseburger dance on the twisty bit of gnarled moon rocks every Thursday at 12:14 am.
The air moving through the fork legs is being chopped to pieces by the wheel's spinning spokes, that it doesn't really matter if a little bit of hose is exposed. In addition we need to account for performance at different yaw angles. If we want a real solution to the problem, then the hose would exit straight out the back of the fork leg, through the flat-mount adapter and directly into the caliper without any of it being exposed at all.
I think yours is a really good idea and it wouldn't certainly help. I wouldn't be surprised if bike manufacturers have already thought of this too but are holding off on release for a rainy day as, yet, another reason to get people to buy a new bike, or at least components.
Could you integrate part of the disc brake where the hose/cable goes onto the disc inside the fork, so that the hydraulic hose/cable never exits the fork. You could have that part including all the olives, flare nuts that connects to the brake body integrated inside the fork where the mounts are. Probably have some issues with the carbon fork snapping where the massive hole is to accommodate the mount and brake hole though lol
It's great to travel to the far side with a chuckle but moreover with a bit of truth in the jest. Loved it. Until we can produce ultra lightweight fairing, perhaps from graphene, we'll never properly reduce turbulent flow. The bigger issue is we've not yet produced a bike that allows the position of a recumbent or velo mobile with the better gravitational pedal stroke of an upright bike. Got some ideas....top secret. Lol. Got to do some AI modeling, ha. All the best.
The trend to move all wires and cable housing internal seems counter to exposed hydraulic lines. This effectively uses the fork blade to shroud the line. Why haven't we seen any aero testing on brake/shifter levers? They are one of the first things on a bike to contact clean air (like tires/wheels). They come in all different styles and shapes. Are they all the same aerodynamically? Old campy ergopower were very small. Some shimano hydro levers are huge.
Ive thought about this same problem from the time I started riding. I thought that hiding the hose behind the fork would be the most rational solution. The calipers would have to be redesigned. Shouldn’t be that big of a deal for a big brand.
That's an interesting take. But since the exposed cable is right next to the brake rotors, which create a lot of turbulence, wouldn't a cylindrical bit of hose sticking out not affect the aero too much? (As opposed to if it was sticking out of the headtube) Also, I do have to admit, the Bikotic hozzy does look exactly like something ceramicspeed would sell. Better patent it so ceramicspeed doesn't steal your idea haha
@Hambini has been making these points for a few years. Likely loss minuscule but a loss none the less Emphasis on aero over weight also odd. As we know carbon wheels at speed arent great with rim brakes so we now have discs
LOL, honestly loosing some fat from my ass would save far more watts than moving the brake cable. Plus I get the benefit of going up hills a few seconds faster because I'm not carrying extra lbs.
Don’t know, don’t care. I have been thinking a lot recently of getting an Orbea Orca Aero just because it looks cool. I also ride an Orbea Orca. Pairing the two just make a lot of sense. 😂
i'd argue that the so called aero gains make absolutely no difference whatsoever for 90% of the riders on this planet. Like zero difference. I am reading the marketing gimmicks like "15 seconds faster over 50 km course at 40km/h" and am like: WTF do they mean, I can only do that on a motorcycle.
Agree with the exposed hose... just silly design... when it was launched nobody cared about aero apparently... also they could move the break further down behind the rotor.... which AI tools did you use for the image generation? MidJourney?
The forward position of the TT bike is not only more aero, but also save the legs for the running portion to come. The backward seat position allows higher power delivery (especially uphill) and is more comfortable, but fatigues prevalently the same muscles as running does.
The reoriented hose blocks the mounting bolt, meaning you would not be able to adjust the caliper alignment once bled. My solution would be to instead bolt the caliper from the other end through the fork, similar to how the rear caliper is mounted to the chainstay. A clip on shroud to the front of the fork could then keep it aero, and protect the bolts from corrosion.
the AI illustrations and the airfoil “made of recycled rim brake pads” had me crying laughing
🤣
@@bikoticI'd buy it just because it was hilarious 🤣
I've stopped half way Mr Bikotic Sir - you are making great points, and the graphic presentation is stunning. IMHO you are on to something, but I have the urge to intervene as a retired engineer. I'm only familiar with the Shimano calipers, but their design is flawed. We don't just need the hose behind the fork, we need a different solution. You see, the top entry of the hose is the problem. Because air is less dense than fluid, the bleed point on the caliper needs to be at the top, and hose entry at the bottom - that's why people are finding them a nightmare to bleed - gravity can't assist. The engineering requirement points to a solution where the fluid is fed to the bottom of the caliper through a port from the fork rather than from a top entry hose in the wind.
I've now finished watching, it got a bit surreal but fun all the same.
Rim brakes? 🤣
@@bikotic ... Thank you, and it's difficult to resist the temptation to argue it. I have a rim brake Emonda (really light- great bike). I bought some winter wheels for it (Vision Team 30s) that have a coating on the brake tracks - with those on it stops at least as well as my disc brake Orro Gold STC (and pack it in with the biscuit jokes) 😂
@@bikotic new cyclists changed the spelling from brakes to breaks i've noticed. it isn't about breaking efficiency as much as it is about confidence and stopping power in wet conditions. it is probably a safe bet none of them has ever actually attempted to stop a race bike in the wet because indoor cycling is where it's at. somehow this means rim breaks are obsolete now and pretty soon kids will learn how to bleed breaklines before riding their little aerobikes.
Great Idea ! Brake hose behind the Fork or the Hozzy
My concern with moving the hose to the "back of the fork" position is that it would compromise fork's strength/durability. Aero is nothing compared to how much forces affect the area when braking. I have crashed my bike due to fork breaking above calipers and that's an awful way to crash (straight with face to ground without warning).
You could overbuild the hole like the recent mad0ne, but there are already photos circulating with the seat post broken.
Fair point!
That Madone was involved in a crash. The chain was off and the owner admitted to sliding out.
Good idea with the hosey. You just have to make sure it’s stiff enough. If it starts to “flap” at all you’ll be adding drag not reducing it. Cheers!
I believe the aero tri bars were first used in a pro bike race by the 7-Eleven team at the Tour de Trump in 1989.
Awesome
"And it seems to me you lived your life, like a pencil in the wind..."
🤣
To be precise, Greg Lemond won the Tour de France in 1989 by 8 seconds in the final classification, but he started the time trial on the last day with a deficit of 50 seconds behind Laurent Fignon. Which means GL was 58 seconds faster than LF over only 24.5 kilometers, not only 8. So it was more than the equivalent of a pencil that held Fignon back.
The way I understand aerodynamics is that
1. aero is not predictable, you must test everything
2. the slightest change in shape can have dramatic effects on aerodynamics
3. you want the slipstream to stay as close to the bike as possible
I suspect, because of 3, the tube sticking in the turbulent air already being generated by the rotating wheel, the tube makes either near as makes no difference, or no difference whatsoever to the air travelling between the fork.
It may also be that because of 3, moving the tube to behind the fork as you have may suddenly cause the air to suddenly detach creating dirty air and drag, and so 1 should require that you test and see what the differences are.
Although, maybe this is the secret that saves you 200W over the course of 200 miles at a constant 10kph when the southerly crosswinds blow ever westward while doing a cheeseburger dance on the twisty bit of gnarled moon rocks every Thursday at 12:14 am.
The air moving through the fork legs is being chopped to pieces by the wheel's spinning spokes, that it doesn't really matter if a little bit of hose is exposed. In addition we need to account for performance at different yaw angles. If we want a real solution to the problem, then the hose would exit straight out the back of the fork leg, through the flat-mount adapter and directly into the caliper without any of it being exposed at all.
Yes! Option 1 please!
I think yours is a really good idea and it wouldn't certainly help. I wouldn't be surprised if bike manufacturers have already thought of this too but are holding off on release for a rainy day as, yet, another reason to get people to buy a new bike, or at least components.
Could you integrate part of the disc brake where the hose/cable goes onto the disc inside the fork, so that the hydraulic hose/cable never exits the fork. You could have that part including all the olives, flare nuts that connects to the brake body integrated inside the fork where the mounts are.
Probably have some issues with the carbon fork snapping where the massive hole is to accommodate the mount and brake hole though lol
It's great to travel to the far side with a chuckle but moreover with a bit of truth in the jest. Loved it. Until we can produce ultra lightweight fairing, perhaps from graphene, we'll never properly reduce turbulent flow. The bigger issue is we've not yet produced a bike that allows the position of a recumbent or velo mobile with the better gravitational pedal stroke of an upright bike. Got some ideas....top secret. Lol. Got to do some AI modeling, ha. All the best.
The trend to move all wires and cable housing internal seems counter to exposed hydraulic lines. This effectively uses the fork blade to shroud the line. Why haven't we seen any aero testing on brake/shifter levers? They are one of the first things on a bike to contact clean air (like tires/wheels). They come in all different styles and shapes. Are they all the same aerodynamically? Old campy ergopower were very small. Some shimano hydro levers are huge.
Ive thought about this same problem from the time I started riding. I thought that hiding the hose behind the fork would be the most rational solution. The calipers would have to be redesigned. Shouldn’t be that big of a deal for a big brand.
Idea N°1 seems better, Nice point of view
Thanks!
No joke you could sell that cover to cyclists for $350 as an OSPC.
🤣
That's an interesting take. But since the exposed cable is right next to the brake rotors, which create a lot of turbulence, wouldn't a cylindrical bit of hose sticking out not affect the aero too much? (As opposed to if it was sticking out of the headtube)
Also, I do have to admit, the Bikotic hozzy does look exactly like something ceramicspeed would sell. Better patent it so ceramicspeed doesn't steal your idea haha
love your videos, keep it up!
Thanks!
@Hambini has been making these points for a few years. Likely loss minuscule but a loss none the less
Emphasis on aero over weight also odd. As we know carbon wheels at speed arent great with rim brakes so we now have discs
I believe the Hozzy might not conform to UCI rules about fairings. It is supposed to be structural.
My first thought when you raised the problem turns out to be your solution too. Brake designers obviously are not concerned with aero are they.
LOL, honestly loosing some fat from my ass would save far more watts than moving the brake cable. Plus I get the benefit of going up hills a few seconds faster because I'm not carrying extra lbs.
Don’t know, don’t care.
I have been thinking a lot recently of getting an Orbea Orca Aero just because it looks cool.
I also ride an Orbea Orca. Pairing the two just make a lot of sense. 😂
i'd argue that the so called aero gains make absolutely no difference whatsoever for 90% of the riders on this planet.
Like zero difference.
I am reading the marketing gimmicks like "15 seconds faster over 50 km course at 40km/h" and am like: WTF do they mean, I can only do that on a motorcycle.
10/10 would purchase a Hozzey
😂
Very entertaining Kudos
mechanical disc brakes already have to housing on the left side and riders still spend money on mostly unproven speed gains.
Bmc tmr01 has an aero cover for the hose
Good spot, thanks! this proves it is a thing right....maybe....
Your worried about a hose and every one is installing bar bags 😂 on the 12k bikes
I can’t login to wiggle for the same reason. My saved password doesn’t work and password reset email never shows up. Welp.
My Idea is rim brakes
As if they don't have bigger frontal area or just as much of cable sticking out, lmao
tuning in only for the AI images 🤣
Haha
What is your email address? Is it through Microsoft outlook? Your chainreaction email might be in Quarantine which is different to Junk mail.
Which ai image creation tool do you use?
Midjourney
Lol, the conspiricy is to remove money from your wallet with the expectation of being a tour de france rider.
Hehe great stuff. I0/I0
The weirdness makes me cackle
Sl9 tarmac will run with this
Agree with the exposed hose... just silly design... when it was launched nobody cared about aero apparently... also they could move the break further down behind the rotor.... which AI tools did you use for the image generation? MidJourney?
Yep Midjourney
Recycled rim brake pads lmao
Bikotic, you crack me up😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Or or orrrrr….. hear me out….we can get rid of disc brake road bikes in general 😎
🤣
@@bikotic we all know rim brake road bike ride and handle so much better. Disc brake road bikes only belong in cold and rainy parts of the world.
loco
wiggle and chainreaction new web design is garbage.