I've now cycled over 150,000 kilometres (93,000mi) on belt drivetrains! 🎉 If you'd like to know more about belt drive bicycles, I'd recommend watching my super in-depth video here: ua-cam.com/video/PhXTl7gApVA/v-deo.html
This is the first I’ve become aware of this variable diameter cog. I’m intrigued by the cleverness. I realize that many people may look at it and have concerns. But, I also remember in the 1960s seeing adults chuckle derisively the first time they saw derailuers moving chains across 5 cogs.
Intrigued, yes. That said, the cogs reliance on a "derailluer"(vile machinery), the fact that it is limited to two gears, and the fact that it relies on nearly a dozen exposed moving parts makes it the grease and maintenance laden hellscape that hubs, gearboxes, and belt drives have historically saved us from.
@@MrQuestfulI don't agree, because it only shifts when it's not "in gear" so there are no forces applied, and the "derailleur" mechanism is internal too. it's sealed like your hub is. no need for grease on the outside. but the biggest limitation is 2 speeds and 140% ratio which is only ok for commuter bike and/or low speed ebikes. wireless sounds like too much for limited functionality. people paying for wireless shifting want more performance . cable wired shifting with internally routed wires on an ebike would be cheaper, more reliable, and wouldn't require to charge /swap 3 different batteries.
@@JohnR31415 good point but. it would probably be fragile and probably add as much weight as the battery plus drag, plus you'd still need a battery for the shifter derailleurs are made to be tough. a small battery in the frame , and wires ran in the frame to the shifter and derailleur would do and it could be smaller without the wireless communication
I had the same thought lmao. Would be a cool way to retrofit smaller gear hubs into having more gear ratios, like adding an auxiliary gearbox on a truck.
While most geared hubs would not offer the space for that on the side, it would work with the SRAM Dual Drive (only old stock available anymore) or Sturmey Archer Triple Shift. Both are three geared hubs with a cassette freehub body, so they should offer the space needed for this system. But you could also add front shifting from Schlumpf or Efneo, both being planetary gears between cranks and chainwheel/beltwheel. Schlumpfs have two gears in three versions, I think 1:1.65 or 1:2.5 or 2.5:1. Efneo has three gears 0.7:1:1.25 (total of 1:1.79 from underdrive to overdrive)
Same thought, lol. FWIW, a 50/34 chainset is 147% difference in range, so this (as it stands) would be in the same neighborhood as a traditional 2x system.
As much as this sounds interesting, I think Internal Gear Hubs are just a much better option for the majority of people that use belts, like touring or urban riding. Knowing that your drivetrain is bombproof is much more important for commuting or world traveling than skimming off a pound or two.
Thing is that IGH isn't bombproof, well, maybe Rohloff is as close to this description as it's possible - most expensive and heavy gear hub on market, suited rather for specific applications like touring.
Yeah, cassettes can handle more torque per Kg of material, just due to sheer radius. IGH are not at all "bomb proof" they're just easier to use & relatively low maintenance until they fail. And when they fail, IGH are not as easy to repair; usually a cassette system can get by, replacing only one or two rings, with common parts made by multiple brands!
The Rohloff is bombproof and you pay for that exceptional quality in the purchase price and weight. The rest of the IGH market works well for the commuter, and light use market. they are not reliable when paired with an electric motor.
I've run the same Nexus 8 every day on a commuter bike for 15 years. Not a long commute, about 40 miles per week, but I don't believe in riding slowly. It has never needed any maintenance or repair and has never missed a beat. I will never, ever go back to a derailleur for commuting - even my cheap little Nexus has saved me countless hours of cleaning, adjusting and replacing, and I know it'll work when I get the bike out in the morning.
@@cooperised As with any [bike] tech IGH depends on proper installation and conditions of use. Some people who get flat at rear can't do job themselves, aren't aware of role of washers and install wheel incorrectly ruining it shortly after. Some people shift Nexus at load without stopping pedaling for a moment. Some people riding sun or rain, neglect service and ruin hub quickly. So it depends - as always. 15 years is a long time. I believe IGH would benefit from cleaning and replacing lube after such a long time to be able to run for another 15 years.
i changed to a belt drive and Roholhoff this year - my only reget -not doing it sooner - so smooth and quite - and no more endless chain /gear maintenance
Oh man I didn't even think of that but immediately my brain went "ok who's going to do a Rohloff-Pinion-Veer-Shift-Drive for MAXIMUM gear ratio range first..."
можно сделать передачу с двумя короткими ремнями и в качестве успокоителя использовать подвижный натяжной центральный ролик с еще двумя передачами. таким обазом будет 8 вариантов передаточных чисел. для облегчения веса комплекта возможно распечатать на 3д принтере полимерные сменные зубья (венцы) для экономичности, или изготовить зубчатые венцы из карбона для еще меньшего веса и долговечности. From Russia with Love)
What do you mean "may be enough"? In the 80's, bikes with 3 gears were common (in Europe). I only ever use the top 4-5 of my 21 gears. I don't even think I could pedal fast enough in my lowest gear to keep me from tipping over. I think that the by-default inclusion of more than 1 front sprocket is more due to marketing than actual need.
I have never had a problem doing the minimum work necessary to run an efficient chain, however your explorations into belt drives are intriguing and informative. the pinion gear with belt drive will be the best option where I live and ride. I am 65, and I expect to Finnish out on my steel frame and chain drive. endless fun on bikes!!!!
Thanks! There are many instances when chains are superior, and many others when belts are best. It feels luxurious that we can perfectly optimise our bikes around our every desire. 😎
Really, is there _any_ other consumer product, that is so modular & non-proprietary? Even these fancy drive systems, are designed to fit many brands of frame! What other industry is like that, today?!
the problem with electric shifters is also that they can't be connected to the onboard power system. So they need extra batteries that must be charged.
I moved over to the Gates belt drive system around 8 years ago on an e-bike, (Cube SUV Hybrid Race 500). I could never go back to chain ever again, having ridden bikes for around 32 years daily commuting to work. I'm now an older guy (56 years old), so moving over to the belt and Enviolo automatic gearing has been a blessing. No more getting your trousers caught on the chain, no more rusty gunk infected chains, it's a no brainer. The belt drive is more expensive, but trust me, it's worth investing in a decent quality Gates system.
@@COYSMike I haven't cycled a non-e-bike with belt drive, however, if for example, e-bikes weren't available in the market, I would certainly try a bike with a belt drive, having cycled for 32 years on chain-driven bikes, I'm sure I'd be happy with the Gates belt drive, especially since I was fed up of cleaning my chain many many times, living in Scotland the weather here ain't so forgiving, 4 seasons in one day :)
@@COYSMikeI use a non-electric bike with Gates+Enviolo and I love it! I also cannot fathom going back to chains. I plan on switching to a Gates+Pinion Priority 600 ADX - the hills here are not very forgiving.
I don't like the extra drag, on a manual _or_ ebike... The grime & trouser eating are real, significant downsides, but I've long since learned how to avoid the major hassles & enjoy the lower drag, lower weight, & dramatically lower cost (yes, even including maintenance) of a cassette+derailleur. I just wish our ebike had room for a front derailleur! (1× drivetrains are not so great, & as observed above, hub shifting is conveniently tidy but not otherwise superior.)
Thanks for watching! This kind of bike tech is my favourite to research, test and write about. The great news is that I've only scratched the surface in terms of what's coming! 😎
This is the first of these youtube bike transmission innovations that actually makes a lot of sense and I think it has potential. I would definitely buy it for my commuter bike, which right now has a belt plus internal gear hub. My current setup is awesome already but with such a Veer system, maintenance and friction could be much easier or lower and the reduced weight also helps a lot since I am carrying my bike a lot.
@@ingulari3977 It would be neither 2x price or weight, because you'd only need one chain tensioner. For maintenance and reliability, it needs to be seen how reliable these systems are in general. The advantage is obviously that you get enough gear ratios to make it actually useful in somewhat varied terrain.
I recently purchased a cheap 1 by 8 speed road bike I use as a knock about, and for commuting. It's fitted with a 250 W hub motor and has a small 250w battery as I like to pedal. I can easily get 70 to 80km on one charge. What has amazed me is how little I use the gears. I'm mostly in the highest, or the lowest when I'm helping the motor climb, which is important with such a small battery. The way I ride that bike, the Shift Drive would work well.
@@prophetzarquon1922 mine has 70km range with 1kwh battery. Depends on the landscape, if you climb the mountains and don't regenerate coming down your range is more like 40km. There are several on the market with 100km+ range. But normally you would then take a car anyway as it just takes too much time.
I can see this work well in the right niche (flat terrain). Two concerns: 1) little belt engagement on the smallest cog due to the tensioner, which might increase belt/cog wear, and 2) a "bumpy" vibrating pedaling feel due to the segmented cogs not being round. The same thing can be felt with extra small 9 and 10 tooth chain sprockets. Doesn't have to be a deal breaker.
Don't know where this two speed fits into my future. It is very interesting and I enjoyed watching. Thanks for staying current on the latest tech and sharing it with us.............Be well.
Weight, efficiency and potentially price advantage over an internal gear hub makes this intriguing. I would have concerns though over the exposed swivel mechanism and longevity.
In the big gear the belt doesn't have enough wrap to stop the belt slipping over the teeth. Bicycle belt drives I have worked on need a very specific tension to work properly. Clever concept regarding the rotating sprocket segments but realistically impractical application here.
During touring internal belt systems means you save weight by carrying less degreaser and lubricants, and cleaning equipment, which offsets upfront increase due to belt system
This is absolutely cool and I definitely want to try it but I think It'll never work on a mountain bike. I think it would get jammed up a lot by sticks or even dirt. I could also see small rocks on the road causing jams tho.
This reminds me of (now defunkt) Vyro AmEn1 front chainring derailleur. It had a big chairing made of 4 petals that moved in or out over a much smaller chainring.
Would be an awesome way to retrofit older existing bikes that already use a smaller hub, like a 3 speed IGH. Combo them so you can have a 6 speed, like having a two speed crank ring but without any of the drawbacks.
My e-bike is an old Gtech, I absolutely love it's belt drive which is a game changer for commuting, I've not ruined any more trousers since I got it. I want one of these, it's as simple as that.
I really liked the belt drive on my commuter bike, but I eventually got rid of it because I really didn't like the internally geared hub. It had an Enviolio hub, which was totally unsuitable for mildly hilly riding due to its range and inefficiency. I replaced it with an electric cargo bike, and the cargo bike (with derailer) climbs hills better, even without the electric assist turned on. Maybe a better hub would have been fine, but it shows how big of a downside internally geared hubs can have. I'm really happy seeing innovation in this segment.
Yeah, even a Rohloff has more drag in last gear, than a 30 year old 3×10 speed design, plus more weight, more cost, & less modularity. The grease & chewed pant legs are real issues, but the biggest _functional_ issues with derailleur systems, come down to usage; with proper usage, derailleur shifting is still superior in most functional respects. Ditching derailleurs is mostly a convenience thing, & not at all a performance thing.
My Rohloff belt drive has over 500% gear range. My only complaint is I'd prefer a hub with more gap between fewer gears and a lot less weight. But Rohloff is by far the best game in town in geared hubs. The competition is insanely heavy.
I’m always a fan of trying new things, but I predict this idea will not be successful. It does what a 2-speed hub already does, but requires (at least) six segments to shift, without fail, to accomplish each shift. Ditto a 2 chainring front derailleur: it’s much simpler and easier to produce than the multiple rotating segments of the 2-speed belt drive, easier to maintain and repair, and gear ratio changes are much easier to effect. It’s an alternative solution to a problem that has already been solved, but doesn’t offer improved functionality, reliability, or lower costs. ❤
Finally someone who has engineering skills. this is completely pointless and insanely complex idea which only works in CGI I doubt if they even made working model.
I've been watching Veer for some time now. I have wanted to convert my Rad Wagon 4 to a belt drive but have been unable to figure out how to get the right gear ratio. This looks awesome! If I had the money for an Efneo 3 speed front planetary drive and the Veer belt drive featured here I would definitely do it. From what I see, Veer will sell a split belt for the correct length and then one simply needs to install it on the sprockets. If this system works out, well done Veer!
The splittable belt has existed for some time. It was mentioned in one of the videos on this channel a couple of years ago. It doesn't seem to have sparked a revolution unfortunately. Requirement for a gear hub was the main limitation I suppose.
@irvvine I know the split belt requires a bike frame that has a horizontal drop outs to slide the rear wheel back or forward which really limits the number of frames that really can be adapted to their belt. I wonder if the tensioner would allow you to really use any style drop outs? I would really like to put a belt drive on a standard road frame I have with the vertical dropouts. Or can the user custom cut and fit the belt to where it would fit on the frame you're using without having to adjust the rear wheel at all?
@@walkinthenose87 I thought there already were belt tensioners on the market (the same as chain tensioners for single-speed chains). But that's a good point too, although the creator of this channel recommends undertentioning IIRC.
After building several top quality frame touring bikes I decided that I would put together a internal gear belt drive gravel/touring bike. I used a Carver titanium frame, a Rohloff IH, and the Gates CDX belt/sprockets. For example, this morning I was cranking Montana single track climbs and the bike has the gear spread to tour or pull a trailer. At 73, It is like OMG where have you been all my life.
There was a home-made 6-speed system demonstrated on YT some time back. It had a different way to change diameters and was designed for a chain, but a similar concept.
I prefer as many gear ratios as reasonably possible to keep the perfect cadence, thus peek efficiency at max. I'm pretty happy with my Shimano 105 system, but I would love a belt instead of the chain, for sure. 😊
I'm not even all about maintaining my most efficient cadence (though I do hate _any_ extra drag)... I just prefer to crank slow & hard unless I'm climbing a hill!
The Patterson Drive can use a belt, is all internal, has a 1:1.6 gear range, is mounted on the front sprocket so can be paired with an internal hub, doesn’t need a derailleur, and can be shifted anytime, even when stopped.
3:34 (Edit: I wasn’t paying proper attention, ratios are in fact correct.) The total gear ratios are inaccurate. Sturmey Archer has 177% total, Shimano has 186%. That’s a sizeable difference - and those are just the 3-speed hubs. The seven and eight speed offerings from Shimano are still on the affordable side of things, and offer several times the range. Moreover, with a chain driven hub, moving that bracket up or down requires changing a sprocket that costs less than 20 quid. And the number one selling point of belt drives is low or no maintenance. This price of kit has exposed moving parts, meaning maintenance will be crucial for maintaining proper function, never mind performance. Impressive engineering, but a solution to a problem that’s already been solved.
Hold up! Just going to gloss over the biggest deal here. Splitting belt! This is honestly the biggest deal. It means a belt drive of any kind really could be installed on any frame. No more specially designed split frames.
This has existed for many years. It works with a forked belt and little pins to hold it together. It has been used very often in for example food processing and packaging.
Not sure if this will pan out, but I love the creativity! The way the gear sections somersault is mind-bending 🤣 Perhaps, some boffins will figure out how to do even more gears in the not too distant future. I would imagine so. Perhaps, just slide in the next row of teeth. Seems like sliding would be way simpler. (This would be more like the way that derailleurs work, except instead of moving the chain or belt, move the cassette.) An even simpler approach might be to add front shifting. Then, using similar tech, you could (again) double up to 4 gears. Not sure I'd say cable operated shifting is "very" reliable. I've had a fair number of shift cables snap on me. Granted, I have generally used derailleurs, not gear hubs. Unless the tension needed to operate a gear hub is much lower, or the bend radii are much bigger, I would imagine cable failure is just as much of a problem in gear hubs? Of course, compared to electronic shifting, no batteries is an advantage for cables :}
I love your work....always providing us with up-to-date, well researched and interesting content. This shiftdrive may end up being great in a few scenarios. However, I have a comment on belts. I am always dumbfounded when reviews (and sale pitches) of belt drives claim that they are "silent and require no lubrication". Maybe in some humid locations they are silent, but in my experience, they require lubrication in order to be silent. I have three bikes with beltdrives, and they are not silent when covered in dust....THEY SQUEAK! Now to counter this I spray them with silicone lubricant every few rides, and that does the trick. Now granted, I live in the desert of southern Utah USA, but from someone who has traveled the world on a belt drive, I just can't believe that you haven't had the same issue...ever?
I use silicone lube on my belts when they squeak. This can be once per year or once every few days - it totally depends on the conditions. Your location is a dry/dusty part of the world! For urban use, few will need to lube a belt.
Exciting stuff! It's going through creative and innovative years, though I don't think the price would come down any time soon. I recently ordered the Tern Orox, but with chain setup, since it was 2200 euros cheaper!
I’m no engineer, but it looks like the tensioner is on the wrong side of the belt. That’s going to make noise and chew up belt teeth faster. As far as belt drives go, I have two Harleys that use Gates belts and they’ve lasted for over 20 years and tens of thousands of miles. It’s a great system.
What happens if you start to backpedal mid-shift? Will it mess this system totally similar to derailleur system? With derailleur you can fix the result pretty easily simply by switching gear again and pedaling forward but this seems like it could drop the belt in such a situation.
Further idea - might be jumping the gun on Veet's future plans - how about the system on the rear and front cogs? Quite a system - doubling the gearing?
I've already seen a chain-drive variant of this design produced by Vyro Components (which is sadly no longer around), which was designed to replace front derailleurs. I would say that Vyro's approach to a pivoting mechanism instead of a rotating one has a simpler approach.
The segments have toothless gaps in between them, i.e. higher torque per tooth/notch contact point as compared with a single speed sprocket. In particular on the larger sprocket the belt bends twice between segments. It remains to be seen whether this impacts durability.
Splitting belt is a game changer amongst other cool features of this new drivetrain. I’m surprised a split belt hasn’t been developed until now… a missed market opportunity. In the past 10 years I’ve on and off considered a belt drive bike but can’t retrofit so never did it as I’d have to get a FRAME that splits!
Not surprising, given the construction and composition of belts. And any site on the belt where it would split and be connected needs to also be flexible so it can bend around the cogs, whilst being strong enough to hold up.
Naw... It's an interesting idea, but it's a solution to a problem that was solved over 100 years ago. A good 3 speed gear-hub costs maybe 100 euros, lasts forever, is almost 100% efficient, is maintenance free, is a mature technology and offers one speed more than these new fangled gears. I also know exactly what I'm getting. I'm waiting for someone to develop a belt that I can fit onto a any frame. Now that would be an interesting idea that I'm sure a lot of people would buy into. Otherwise a good vid, informative and fair.
It’s definitely interesting. I don’t see myself using something like that though. I wouldn’t get the NuVinci (enviolo) system again if I were to replace my R&M Delite. But I would go with a Rohloff or the new combined motor and gear system from Pinion. I think that would be far better. And on an urban bike, I’d either go with a single speed, or a Dutch bike with a 3 speed hub and a chain case. The only thing I don’t really like about that setup is the plastic chain case, but you could make those out of a plant based material.
I know efficiency is the reason but a cvt style belt drive would be great for a city bike or an e bike. Good range, cheap to produce. Efficient enough for amsterdam or coupled with hub motors.
Now that it an interesting idea, cleverly executed. What I want to know now is how does the mechanism work to synchronise the segment rotation? Is it sprung or driven? I assume the latter as it's bidirectional. But in that case what is it that makes it happen in the right spot? Ah. I guess there is a cog behind each segment inside the hub and a bit of drive-track in the right place that engages on either one side or the other to make the rotations happen. Neat.
Not even really spoken about is the WIRELESS aspect...this means it has to be powered by something internally to either create electromagnets or operate small electric motors to spin the gear pieces...this opens a whole new level of relaibility that wasn't covered in this video...
Really elegant, looks amazing. - is this tech original or reborn from some 19th century genius? A belt that can be split and installed without split chain-stay might be even more important - released separately?
This would be super cool if there was a geometry where more gears would be possible. If they put one of those in the back and up front, that could maybe achieve the range of a 1x10 derailleur system.But honestly i doubt this whole thing would be cost effective, gear hubs are expensive too.
One usecase for this: If you want to run a belt on a trispoke or other wheel, where you can't choose the hub to have internal gears. (Yeah, I am a really niche edge case, I know 😅) Currently I would be looking at Schlumpf or Efneo retrofittable bottom bracket shifting for that. Of of course maybe even a specialized frame with Pinion shifting. But that's not only l expensive, also heavy and inefficient, which doesn't suit the concept I am going for with this build.
Its looks like perfect solution for my single speed bike. I like it, but my left knee demand less force at start and steep terrain. Seems 1,4x may be enough to fix this problem.
- Will this new drivetrain be available for 10 or more speeds, to match the more than 600% gear ratio of an internal hub - like Kindernay? - Perhaps some more appropriate version of this two or three speed design, would be for the CHAIN RING.
So each shift needs half a wheel cycle instead of a third. The other problem is the complexity of the open mechanism. Also, now you need a belt tensioner. You get rid of the first problem, if you mount it to the crank. How is the belt doing with the narrow radius inbetween shifts? Good luck.
I'm thinking it might be possible to match this Veer system with the Pinion gearbox, if the chainline matched up. This could extend the range of the C12 gearbox from 600% to 840%, maybe? That would be interesting.
This has been around for at least two years now. Of course, Veer can be put on anything single speed or internal. Hub motors are 90's era tech. It just doesn't make sense to waste the expense of this very limited system on a cheap bike. Keeping those segments clean and quiet isn't going to be easy. Currently, they are as heavy as an 8 speed Nexus internal. Much as us e-bikers want to think weight doesn't matter, it does impact range and handling. While I still prefer belt drive and internally geared hubs, the fact is, there is more friction just due to surface area with any belt drive. This system increases that friction with the tensioner. That's not as efficient either. Definitely worth it to me, but I rude my traditional bikes for anything over 30 miles anyway.
Put the teeth groups onto a bigger diameter. Here they have 4 spinning teeth groups. So put on 8. so keep it only four are using the belt at once still but you can have two different heights on each group.. Which means you can have many more gears. Think with 8 spinning teeth groups you have two different teeth set means 4 gears sizes. That’s a ingenious idea they have. Well done. But listen to my idea there and make it :)
I wonder what advantage this offers over somthing like the Classified rear hub? If you already have a rear hub motor then obviously thats not an option, but if I wanted to increase the gearing in my belt drive singlespeed (or a mid-motor setup, if I had one) I think I'd investigate the Classified setup first.
It looks like it could be easily adapted to four speeds. Just rotate the sections 1/4 turn per shift, and add two more sets of teeth perpendicular to the current ones.
wait, what about the split belt that you barely mentioned? the only reason I haven't switched to an internal geared hub will the Gates carbon belt is because I don't want to modify my frame? I can't believe Gates hasn't come up with a way to do this yet as a way to advance their own product, so I feel like there's got to be a longevity issue resulting from having been split.
As an urban cyclist covering less than 10km a day, I would not give up the ability to change gears when stationary: sudden obstacles and stopping traffic lights happens frequently and I never worry about shifting down gears while stopping.
I just rock the bike back & forth a bit, to get enough rotation to shift... _buuut_ I've also fractured my hip once, due to a thrown chain after I had failed to downshift, so...
This system plus a simplified gearbox with less gears and less weight would be great. Sort of reincarnation of old 2 by system. Just this time two gears in the rear and let's say 6-8 in the front.
@@Cyclingabout Love the concept. Whenever something truly new comes onto the market I just get excited. Like when Pinion took off with their first gearboxes and now with their MGU, it was so polarizing back then. Also when Motion came out with the E18+ fork, just spectacular
That is really clever , but two things spring to mind , firstly its unproven , and lastly , imo it is a limited application , because there is no getting around the point you only have two gears , as you mentioned on the flat and , with motor assist that maybe doable , but in other applications requiring more gear options , it seems a hard sell ..
Uh, I would still prefer enclosed gear hubs or mid boxes. The advantage of belt drive is that it is resistant to outside condition, and this kind of exposes internals .
I would worry about its durability, there is a strong bending moment on those swivel bearings when pedalling hard and I think they may end up failing prematurely
Their split belts alone are wildly expensive, I imagine this kit would be astronomically high. Pinion gearboxes are a much better and more durable solution, especially considering this isn’t reasonably priced.
Why couldn't the front belt-ring be made to to do the same trick? It's seems like you would only need a longer tensioner arm to then have 4 gear ratios.
I've now cycled over 150,000 kilometres (93,000mi) on belt drivetrains! 🎉 If you'd like to know more about belt drive bicycles, I'd recommend watching my super in-depth video here: ua-cam.com/video/PhXTl7gApVA/v-deo.html
how many km total do you think?
Right?
This is the first I’ve become aware of this variable diameter cog. I’m intrigued by the cleverness. I realize that many people may look at it and have concerns. But, I also remember in the 1960s seeing adults chuckle derisively the first time they saw derailuers moving chains across 5 cogs.
Intrigued, yes. That said, the cogs reliance on a "derailluer"(vile machinery), the fact that it is limited to two gears, and the fact that it relies on nearly a dozen exposed moving parts makes it the grease and maintenance laden hellscape that hubs, gearboxes, and belt drives have historically saved us from.
@kenshinjenna agreed. It’s replacing one derailleur with several. I think this is harder to make reliable, sheerly from an odds perspective.
@@MrQuestfulI don't agree, because it only shifts when it's not "in gear" so there are no forces applied, and the "derailleur" mechanism is internal too. it's sealed like your hub is. no need for grease on the outside. but the biggest limitation is 2 speeds and 140% ratio which is only ok for commuter bike and/or low speed ebikes. wireless sounds like too much for limited functionality. people paying for wireless shifting want more performance . cable wired shifting with internally routed wires on an ebike would be cheaper, more reliable, and wouldn't require to charge /swap 3 different batteries.
@@geemy9675I still don’t understand why wireless shifters aren’t all powered by a tiny dynamo in the mechanism…
@@JohnR31415 good point but. it would probably be fragile and probably add as much weight as the battery plus drag, plus you'd still need a battery for the shifter derailleurs are made to be tough. a small battery in the frame , and wires ran in the frame to the shifter and derailleur would do and it could be smaller without the wireless communication
My first thought was: "I want to fit this on my 11 speed gearhub to make it 22 speed"
I had the same thought lmao. Would be a cool way to retrofit smaller gear hubs into having more gear ratios, like adding an auxiliary gearbox on a truck.
This was also my thought. And I imagine it to be awesome
While most geared hubs would not offer the space for that on the side, it would work with the SRAM Dual Drive (only old stock available anymore) or Sturmey Archer Triple Shift. Both are three geared hubs with a cassette freehub body, so they should offer the space needed for this system. But you could also add front shifting from Schlumpf or Efneo, both being planetary gears between cranks and chainwheel/beltwheel. Schlumpfs have two gears in three versions, I think 1:1.65 or 1:2.5 or 2.5:1. Efneo has three gears 0.7:1:1.25 (total of 1:1.79 from underdrive to overdrive)
Same thought, lol. FWIW, a 50/34 chainset is 147% difference in range, so this (as it stands) would be in the same neighborhood as a traditional 2x system.
Same - I want one on the chain ring to run with my Rohloff!
As much as this sounds interesting, I think Internal Gear Hubs are just a much better option for the majority of people that use belts, like touring or urban riding. Knowing that your drivetrain is bombproof is much more important for commuting or world traveling than skimming off a pound or two.
Thing is that IGH isn't bombproof, well, maybe Rohloff is as close to this description as it's possible - most expensive and heavy gear hub on market, suited rather for specific applications like touring.
Yeah, cassettes can handle more torque per Kg of material, just due to sheer radius. IGH are not at all "bomb proof" they're just easier to use & relatively low maintenance until they fail.
And when they fail, IGH are not as easy to repair; usually a cassette system can get by, replacing only one or two rings, with common parts made by multiple brands!
The Rohloff is bombproof and you pay for that exceptional quality in the purchase price and weight. The rest of the IGH market works well for the commuter, and light use market. they are not reliable when paired with an electric motor.
I've run the same Nexus 8 every day on a commuter bike for 15 years. Not a long commute, about 40 miles per week, but I don't believe in riding slowly. It has never needed any maintenance or repair and has never missed a beat. I will never, ever go back to a derailleur for commuting - even my cheap little Nexus has saved me countless hours of cleaning, adjusting and replacing, and I know it'll work when I get the bike out in the morning.
@@cooperised As with any [bike] tech IGH depends on proper installation and conditions of use. Some people who get flat at rear can't do job themselves, aren't aware of role of washers and install wheel incorrectly ruining it shortly after. Some people shift Nexus at load without stopping pedaling for a moment. Some people riding sun or rain, neglect service and ruin hub quickly. So it depends - as always.
15 years is a long time. I believe IGH would benefit from cleaning and replacing lube after such a long time to be able to run for another 15 years.
i changed to a belt drive and Roholhoff this year - my only reget -not doing it sooner - so smooth and quite - and no more endless chain /gear maintenance
If both front chainring and rear one would be equipped with this solution we could get 4 gears which honestly may be enough for quite flat terrain.
good idea
i thought about how one could fit 3 on 1 side, but 4 on 2 would be better
would be cool, if there was just 1 shifter with 4 gears
This was my thought.
Oh man I didn't even think of that but immediately my brain went "ok who's going to do a Rohloff-Pinion-Veer-Shift-Drive for MAXIMUM gear ratio range first..."
можно сделать передачу с двумя короткими ремнями и в качестве успокоителя использовать подвижный натяжной центральный ролик с еще двумя передачами. таким обазом будет 8 вариантов передаточных чисел. для облегчения веса комплекта возможно распечатать на 3д принтере полимерные сменные зубья (венцы) для экономичности, или изготовить зубчатые венцы из карбона для еще меньшего веса и долговечности. From Russia with Love)
What do you mean "may be enough"?
In the 80's, bikes with 3 gears were common (in Europe). I only ever use the top 4-5 of my 21 gears. I don't even think I could pedal fast enough in my lowest gear to keep me from tipping over. I think that the by-default inclusion of more than 1 front sprocket is more due to marketing than actual need.
I have never had a problem doing the minimum work necessary to run an efficient chain, however your explorations into belt drives are intriguing and informative. the pinion gear with belt drive will be the best option where I live and ride. I am 65, and I expect to Finnish out on my steel frame and chain drive. endless fun on bikes!!!!
you offer great video productions full of useful information and geared toward educating riders.. thank you.
Thanks! There are many instances when chains are superior, and many others when belts are best. It feels luxurious that we can perfectly optimise our bikes around our every desire. 😎
Really, is there _any_ other consumer product, that is so modular & non-proprietary?
Even these fancy drive systems, are designed to fit many brands of frame! What other industry is like that, today?!
Let's make everything electronic, or so complicated you can't fix it yourself at home let alone on the side of the road?
Yes , making it wireless shift is dumb , adds cost and detracts from the apparent simplicity (which is hiding the internal complexity :-) )
the problem with electric shifters is also that they can't be connected to the onboard power system. So they need extra batteries that must be charged.
I moved over to the Gates belt drive system around 8 years ago on an e-bike, (Cube SUV Hybrid Race 500). I could never go back to chain ever again, having ridden bikes for around 32 years daily commuting to work. I'm now an older guy (56 years old), so moving over to the belt and Enviolo automatic gearing has been a blessing.
No more getting your trousers caught on the chain, no more rusty gunk infected chains, it's a no brainer. The belt drive is more expensive, but trust me, it's worth investing in a decent quality Gates system.
I agree! My belt drivetrains have been hassle free for over a decade now. 👍
But would you go back to a non-e-bike with belt drive?
@@COYSMike I haven't cycled a non-e-bike with belt drive, however, if for example, e-bikes weren't available in the market, I would certainly try a bike with a belt drive, having cycled for 32 years on chain-driven bikes, I'm sure I'd be happy with the Gates belt drive, especially since I was fed up of cleaning my chain many many times, living in Scotland the weather here ain't so forgiving, 4 seasons in one day :)
@@COYSMikeI use a non-electric bike with Gates+Enviolo and I love it! I also cannot fathom going back to chains. I plan on switching to a Gates+Pinion Priority 600 ADX - the hills here are not very forgiving.
I don't like the extra drag, on a manual _or_ ebike... The grime & trouser eating are real, significant downsides, but I've long since learned how to avoid the major hassles & enjoy the lower drag, lower weight, & dramatically lower cost (yes, even including maintenance) of a cassette+derailleur.
I just wish our ebike had room for a front derailleur! (1× drivetrains are not so great, & as observed above, hub shifting is conveniently tidy but not otherwise superior.)
This is super interesting tech. Hopefully it's reliable and not too expensive.
I hope so too!
Indeed...only real world testing will tell!
it is obviously horribly unreliable and wont last long
@@deltaxcd ❤
Fascinating innovation. Thank you for covering belt drives and internal gear hubs. So few channels do.
Thanks for watching! This kind of bike tech is my favourite to research, test and write about. The great news is that I've only scratched the surface in terms of what's coming! 😎
The shifting is just satisfying to watch
This is the first of these youtube bike transmission innovations that actually makes a lot of sense and I think it has potential.
I would definitely buy it for my commuter bike, which right now has a belt plus internal gear hub. My current setup is awesome already but with such a Veer system, maintenance and friction could be much easier or lower and the reduced weight also helps a lot since I am carrying my bike a lot.
Yeah, usually they add drag, but this system doesn't add a bunch of extra contact surfaces; very intriguing!
are you joking? that this is dumb it will break very soon
That is the most Transformers tech I ever seen, in motion that is.Very fulfilling to watch when the cog/gear transforms.
Now if they built another unit for the front sprocket, it would be a 4-speed. Perfect!
@@ingulari3977 It would be neither 2x price or weight, because you'd only need one chain tensioner. For maintenance and reliability, it needs to be seen how reliable these systems are in general.
The advantage is obviously that you get enough gear ratios to make it actually useful in somewhat varied terrain.
I recently purchased a cheap 1 by 8 speed road bike I use as a knock about, and for commuting. It's fitted with a 250 W hub motor and has a small 250w battery as I like to pedal. I can easily get 70 to 80km on one charge. What has amazed me is how little I use the gears. I'm mostly in the highest, or the lowest when I'm helping the motor climb, which is important with such a small battery. The way I ride that bike, the Shift Drive would work well.
you could get the same range out of an e-scooter, which you can also drive on bike lanes. Less moving parts and more comfortable.
@@svr5423 I have an e scooter, but need the exercise. Plus I weigh 95k, the scooter only gets 20km range. but it's fun to zip down to the shops.
@@rfwillett2424no good for fitness and weight loss however 😊😊
Yeah, the only escooter I know of with 80km range, has a 3KWh battery, weighs half what the rider does, & was recently stolen.
@@prophetzarquon1922 mine has 70km range with 1kwh battery.
Depends on the landscape, if you climb the mountains and don't regenerate coming down your range is more like 40km.
There are several on the market with 100km+ range. But normally you would then take a car anyway as it just takes too much time.
I can see this work well in the right niche (flat terrain). Two concerns: 1) little belt engagement on the smallest cog due to the tensioner, which might increase belt/cog wear, and 2) a "bumpy" vibrating pedaling feel due to the segmented cogs not being round. The same thing can be felt with extra small 9 and 10 tooth chain sprockets. Doesn't have to be a deal breaker.
As usual Alee, bringing us clarity on this new and interesting subject. Sending love! Thank you brother!
Don't know where this two speed fits into my future. It is very interesting and I enjoyed watching. Thanks for staying current on the latest tech and sharing it with us.............Be well.
Thank you. Fascinating. What about 2 cones with radial grooves and v shaped belt? I love this stuff!
Tension would be too high for the bearings on a bike.
Weight, efficiency and potentially price advantage over an internal gear hub makes this intriguing. I would have concerns though over the exposed swivel mechanism and longevity.
this think is at lest 10 times more complex and expensive than internal gear hub and also unreliable
I love my belt drive bicycle. I'm lucky that where I live, I don't need any gears. But this new tech looks really great!
One word. Efficiency.
In the big gear the belt doesn't have enough wrap to stop the belt slipping over the teeth. Bicycle belt drives I have worked on need a very specific tension to work properly. Clever concept regarding the rotating sprocket segments but realistically impractical application here.
During touring internal belt systems means you save weight by carrying less degreaser and lubricants, and cleaning equipment, which offsets upfront increase due to belt system
This is absolutely cool and I definitely want to try it but I think It'll never work on a mountain bike. I think it would get jammed up a lot by sticks or even dirt. I could also see small rocks on the road causing jams tho.
This reminds me of (now defunkt) Vyro AmEn1 front chainring derailleur.
It had a big chairing made of 4 petals that moved in or out over a much smaller chainring.
I was thinking of that! Many varieties of resizable cogs\chainrings, over the years; this particular flippy design is a new one on me!
I think this combined with a relatively simple 5 or 6 speed gearbox would be a killer setup.
I can see a stack of these being useful for drill presses.
imagine this with the brompton T-line 👀🔥
Would be an awesome way to retrofit older existing bikes that already use a smaller hub, like a 3 speed IGH. Combo them so you can have a 6 speed, like having a two speed crank ring but without any of the drawbacks.
My e-bike is an old Gtech, I absolutely love it's belt drive which is a game changer for commuting, I've not ruined any more trousers since I got it. I want one of these, it's as simple as that.
I really liked the belt drive on my commuter bike, but I eventually got rid of it because I really didn't like the internally geared hub. It had an Enviolio hub, which was totally unsuitable for mildly hilly riding due to its range and inefficiency. I replaced it with an electric cargo bike, and the cargo bike (with derailer) climbs hills better, even without the electric assist turned on.
Maybe a better hub would have been fine, but it shows how big of a downside internally geared hubs can have. I'm really happy seeing innovation in this segment.
You should try Rohloff hub. It is very efficient.
Yeah, even a Rohloff has more drag in last gear, than a 30 year old 3×10 speed design, plus more weight, more cost, & less modularity.
The grease & chewed pant legs are real issues, but the biggest _functional_ issues with derailleur systems, come down to usage; with proper usage, derailleur shifting is still superior in most functional respects.
Ditching derailleurs is mostly a convenience thing, & not at all a performance thing.
My Rohloff belt drive has over 500% gear range. My only complaint is I'd prefer a hub with more gap between fewer gears and a lot less weight. But Rohloff is by far the best game in town in geared hubs. The competition is insanely heavy.
I’m always a fan of trying new things, but I predict this idea will not be successful. It does what a 2-speed hub already does, but requires (at least) six segments to shift, without fail, to accomplish each shift. Ditto a 2 chainring front derailleur: it’s much simpler and easier to produce than the multiple rotating segments of the 2-speed belt drive, easier to maintain and repair, and gear ratio changes are much easier to effect. It’s an alternative solution to a problem that has already been solved, but doesn’t offer improved functionality, reliability, or lower costs. ❤
…agreed…and exposed to the elements
Until you have experienced belt drive...............you don't know.
biggest issue is that it will be heavier then a normal drivetrain
Finally someone who has engineering skills.
this is completely pointless and insanely complex idea which only works in CGI I doubt if they even made working model.
I've been watching Veer for some time now. I have wanted to convert my Rad Wagon 4 to a belt drive but have been unable to figure out how to get the right gear ratio. This looks awesome! If I had the money for an Efneo 3 speed front planetary drive and the Veer belt drive featured here I would definitely do it. From what I see, Veer will sell a split belt for the correct length and then one simply needs to install it on the sprockets. If this system works out, well done Veer!
Id like more details on the belt. The fact you can retrofit onto a frame that wasn’t purposely designed for a belt is revolutionary!
The splittable belt has existed for some time. It was mentioned in one of the videos on this channel a couple of years ago. It doesn't seem to have sparked a revolution unfortunately. Requirement for a gear hub was the main limitation I suppose.
@irvvine I know the split belt requires a bike frame that has a horizontal drop outs to slide the rear wheel back or forward which really limits the number of frames that really can be adapted to their belt. I wonder if the tensioner would allow you to really use any style drop outs? I would really like to put a belt drive on a standard road frame I have with the vertical dropouts. Or can the user custom cut and fit the belt to where it would fit on the frame you're using without having to adjust the rear wheel at all?
@@walkinthenose87 I thought there already were belt tensioners on the market (the same as chain tensioners for single-speed chains). But that's a good point too, although the creator of this channel recommends undertentioning IIRC.
Thanks for the insightful review.
After building several top quality frame touring bikes I decided that I would put together a internal gear belt drive gravel/touring bike. I used a Carver titanium frame, a Rohloff IH, and the Gates CDX belt/sprockets. For example, this morning I was cranking Montana single track climbs and the bike has the gear spread to tour or pull a trailer. At 73, It is like OMG where have you been all my life.
Well you spent enough, so yeah, I would hope so!
Neat solution. It's a lot of complexity and cost to get to 2 speeds, though.
If it can change gear in the rear, then surely the same can happen at the front?
Absolutely! 👍
There was a home-made 6-speed system demonstrated on YT some time back. It had a different way to change diameters and was designed for a chain, but a similar concept.
I prefer as many gear ratios as reasonably possible to keep the perfect cadence, thus peek efficiency at max. I'm pretty happy with my Shimano 105 system, but I would love a belt instead of the chain, for sure. 😊
I'm not even all about maintaining my most efficient cadence (though I do hate _any_ extra drag)... I just prefer to crank slow & hard unless I'm climbing a hill!
The Patterson Drive can use a belt, is all internal, has a 1:1.6 gear range, is mounted on the front sprocket so can be paired with an internal hub, doesn’t need a derailleur, and can be shifted anytime, even when stopped.
3:34 (Edit: I wasn’t paying proper attention, ratios are in fact correct.) The total gear ratios are inaccurate. Sturmey Archer has 177% total, Shimano has 186%. That’s a sizeable difference - and those are just the 3-speed hubs. The seven and eight speed offerings from Shimano are still on the affordable side of things, and offer several times the range. Moreover, with a chain driven hub, moving that bracket up or down requires changing a sprocket that costs less than 20 quid. And the number one selling point of belt drives is low or no maintenance. This price of kit has exposed moving parts, meaning maintenance will be crucial for maintaining proper function, never mind performance. Impressive engineering, but a solution to a problem that’s already been solved.
That's a Sturmey Archer 2-speed hub on the left. 138% is correct.
@@Cyclingabout I stand corrected on that point.
This alongside a Pinion 18s and a Rohloff rear hub for a non overkill and very useful 14*18*2 = 504 gears
"I am speed"
I have a belt drive bike with a seven speed hub. While not having as broad a gear ratio as a 22 speed, it's adequate for a twenty mile ride.
Hold up! Just going to gloss over the biggest deal here. Splitting belt! This is honestly the biggest deal. It means a belt drive of any kind really could be installed on any frame. No more specially designed split frames.
This has existed for many years. It works with a forked belt and little pins to hold it together. It has been used very often in for example food processing and packaging.
Not sure if this will pan out, but I love the creativity! The way the gear sections somersault is mind-bending 🤣
Perhaps, some boffins will figure out how to do even more gears in the not too distant future. I would imagine so. Perhaps, just slide in the next row of teeth. Seems like sliding would be way simpler. (This would be more like the way that derailleurs work, except instead of moving the chain or belt, move the cassette.)
An even simpler approach might be to add front shifting. Then, using similar tech, you could (again) double up to 4 gears.
Not sure I'd say cable operated shifting is "very" reliable. I've had a fair number of shift cables snap on me. Granted, I have generally used derailleurs, not gear hubs. Unless the tension needed to operate a gear hub is much lower, or the bend radii are much bigger, I would imagine cable failure is just as much of a problem in gear hubs? Of course, compared to electronic shifting, no batteries is an advantage for cables :}
I love your work....always providing us with up-to-date, well researched and interesting content. This shiftdrive may end up being great in a few scenarios. However, I have a comment on belts. I am always dumbfounded when reviews (and sale pitches) of belt drives claim that they are "silent and require no lubrication". Maybe in some humid locations they are silent, but in my experience, they require lubrication in order to be silent. I have three bikes with beltdrives, and they are not silent when covered in dust....THEY SQUEAK! Now to counter this I spray them with silicone lubricant every few rides, and that does the trick. Now granted, I live in the desert of southern Utah USA, but from someone who has traveled the world on a belt drive, I just can't believe that you haven't had the same issue...ever?
I use silicone lube on my belts when they squeak. This can be once per year or once every few days - it totally depends on the conditions. Your location is a dry/dusty part of the world! For urban use, few will need to lube a belt.
Exciting stuff! It's going through creative and innovative years, though I don't think the price would come down any time soon.
I recently ordered the Tern Orox, but with chain setup, since it was 2200 euros cheaper!
Wake me up when this channel stops doing cutting edge engineering journalism for bikes. What a dynamic time for bike tech!
I’m no engineer, but it looks like the tensioner is on the wrong side of the belt. That’s going to make noise and chew up belt teeth faster. As far as belt drives go, I have two Harleys that use Gates belts and they’ve lasted for over 20 years and tens of thousands of miles. It’s a great system.
Cycling about: "internal gear hubs have a range of 189%"
Rohloff: "hold my fucking beer"
Use a fully enclosed chain case, it makes anything last longer and cleaner.
Much Future Success!
What happens if you start to backpedal mid-shift? Will it mess this system totally similar to derailleur system? With derailleur you can fix the result pretty easily simply by switching gear again and pedaling forward but this seems like it could drop the belt in such a situation.
I think the most interesting question is can you feel the missing segments while pedalling with max torque? Very interesting design nonetheless.
Further idea - might be jumping the gun on Veet's future plans - how about the system on the rear and front cogs? Quite a system - doubling the gearing?
I've already seen a chain-drive variant of this design produced by Vyro Components (which is sadly no longer around), which was designed to replace front derailleurs.
I would say that Vyro's approach to a pivoting mechanism instead of a rotating one has a simpler approach.
The segments have toothless gaps in between them, i.e. higher torque per tooth/notch contact point as compared with a single speed sprocket. In particular on the larger sprocket the belt bends twice between segments. It remains to be seen whether this impacts durability.
I mean, it certainly will; it remains to be seen _how much._
Splitting belt is a game changer amongst other cool features of this new drivetrain. I’m surprised a split belt hasn’t been developed until now… a missed market opportunity. In the past 10 years I’ve on and off considered a belt drive bike but can’t retrofit so never did it as I’d have to get a FRAME that splits!
Not surprising, given the construction and composition of belts. And any site on the belt where it would split and be connected needs to also be flexible so it can bend around the cogs, whilst being strong enough to hold up.
Naw... It's an interesting idea, but it's a solution to a problem that was solved over 100 years ago. A good 3 speed gear-hub costs maybe 100 euros, lasts forever, is almost 100% efficient, is maintenance free, is a mature technology and offers one speed more than these new fangled gears. I also know exactly what I'm getting.
I'm waiting for someone to develop a belt that I can fit onto a any frame. Now that would be an interesting idea that I'm sure a lot of people would buy into.
Otherwise a good vid, informative and fair.
It’s definitely interesting. I don’t see myself using something like that though. I wouldn’t get the NuVinci (enviolo) system again if I were to replace my R&M Delite. But I would go with a Rohloff or the new combined motor and gear system from Pinion. I think that would be far better. And on an urban bike, I’d either go with a single speed, or a Dutch bike with a 3 speed hub and a chain case. The only thing I don’t really like about that setup is the plastic chain case, but you could make those out of a plant based material.
I know efficiency is the reason but a cvt style belt drive would be great for a city bike or an e bike. Good range, cheap to produce. Efficient enough for amsterdam or coupled with hub motors.
There are many designs for variable-diameter chainwheels, as well. Most are rather complicated, and never have been produced.
Now that it an interesting idea, cleverly executed. What I want to know now is how does the mechanism work to synchronise the segment rotation? Is it sprung or driven? I assume the latter as it's bidirectional. But in that case what is it that makes it happen in the right spot? Ah. I guess there is a cog behind each segment inside the hub and a bit of drive-track in the right place that engages on either one side or the other to make the rotations happen. Neat.
Not even really spoken about is the WIRELESS aspect...this means it has to be powered by something internally to either create electromagnets or operate small electric motors to spin the gear pieces...this opens a whole new level of relaibility that wasn't covered in this video...
Really elegant, looks amazing. - is this tech original or reborn from some 19th century genius?
A belt that can be split and installed without split chain-stay might be even more important - released separately?
This would be super cool if there was a geometry where more gears would be possible. If they put one of those in the back and up front, that could maybe achieve the range of a 1x10 derailleur system.But honestly i doubt this whole thing would be cost effective, gear hubs are expensive too.
One usecase for this: If you want to run a belt on a trispoke or other wheel, where you can't choose the hub to have internal gears. (Yeah, I am a really niche edge case, I know 😅) Currently I would be looking at Schlumpf or Efneo retrofittable bottom bracket shifting for that. Of of course maybe even a specialized frame with Pinion shifting. But that's not only l expensive, also heavy and inefficient, which doesn't suit the concept I am going for with this build.
Its looks like perfect solution for my single speed bike. I like it, but my left knee demand less force at start and steep terrain. Seems 1,4x may be enough to fix this problem.
I'd like to try this on my brompton.
In the animations the tensioner goes the wrong way when the gears flip. Just thought I'd point that out,
Could they also adapt the design to have it in place of the front chainring, that way we would also have a front derailleur
- Will this new drivetrain be available for 10 or more speeds, to match the more than 600% gear ratio of an internal hub - like Kindernay?
- Perhaps some more appropriate version of this two or three speed design, would be for the CHAIN RING.
So each shift needs half a wheel cycle instead of a third. The other problem is the complexity of the open mechanism. Also, now you need a belt tensioner.
You get rid of the first problem, if you mount it to the crank.
How is the belt doing with the narrow radius inbetween shifts?
Good luck.
But did you hear about the square wheel made to such high specs it actually rides better than the old boring round ones?
If you're stopped, can you downshift by pedaling backwards?
I'm thinking it might be possible to match this Veer system with the Pinion gearbox, if the chainline matched up. This could extend the range of the C12 gearbox from 600% to 840%, maybe? That would be interesting.
This has been around for at least two years now. Of course, Veer can be put on anything single speed or internal.
Hub motors are 90's era tech. It just doesn't make sense to waste the expense of this very limited system on a cheap bike. Keeping those segments clean and quiet isn't going to be easy. Currently, they are as heavy as an 8 speed Nexus internal. Much as us e-bikers want to think weight doesn't matter, it does impact range and handling. While I still prefer belt drive and internally geared hubs, the fact is, there is more friction just due to surface area with any belt drive. This system increases that friction with the tensioner. That's not as efficient either. Definitely worth it to me, but I rude my traditional bikes for anything over 30 miles anyway.
Is there a thread on version? most hub motors use a freewheel rather than cassette system.
Very clever, though I think 3-speed hubs still have the advantage.
Put the teeth groups onto a bigger diameter. Here they have 4 spinning teeth groups. So put on 8. so keep it only four are using the belt at once still but you can have two different heights on each group.. Which means you can have many more gears. Think with 8 spinning teeth groups you have two different teeth set means 4 gears sizes. That’s a ingenious idea they have. Well done. But listen to my idea there and make it :)
I can see a way for them to be able to increase these from 2 gear to multiple gears. I am curious to see how realizable these are though.
Ok, Let's add more complexity and cost to the system. Not sure I get that idea! I'm sticking with my waxed chain drivetrain.
I wonder what advantage this offers over somthing like the Classified rear hub? If you already have a rear hub motor then obviously thats not an option, but if I wanted to increase the gearing in my belt drive singlespeed (or a mid-motor setup, if I had one) I think I'd investigate the Classified setup first.
No cross belting but do wider belts and wider internal belt rings mean higher efficiency?
It looks like it could be easily adapted to four speeds. Just rotate the sections 1/4 turn per shift, and add two more sets of teeth perpendicular to the current ones.
wait, what about the split belt that you barely mentioned? the only reason I haven't switched to an internal geared hub will the Gates carbon belt is because I don't want to modify my frame? I can't believe Gates hasn't come up with a way to do this yet as a way to advance their own product, so I feel like there's got to be a longevity issue resulting from having been split.
As an urban cyclist covering less than 10km a day, I would not give up the ability to change gears when stationary: sudden obstacles and stopping traffic lights happens frequently and I never worry about shifting down gears while stopping.
I just rock the bike back & forth a bit, to get enough rotation to shift... _buuut_ I've also fractured my hip once, due to a thrown chain after I had failed to downshift, so...
This system plus a simplified gearbox with less gears and less weight would be great. Sort of reincarnation of old 2 by system. Just this time two gears in the rear and let's say 6-8 in the front.
Oh that's a cool animation, would be cool but probably very complicated to build that in real li--- WHAT IT'S REAL?!
I played with this drivetrain long before the animations were made. It's the real deal!
@@Cyclingabout Love the concept. Whenever something truly new comes onto the market I just get excited.
Like when Pinion took off with their first gearboxes and now with their MGU, it was so polarizing back then.
Also when Motion came out with the E18+ fork, just spectacular
That is really clever , but two things spring to mind , firstly its unproven , and lastly , imo it is a limited application , because there is no getting around the point you only have two gears , as you mentioned on the flat and , with motor assist that maybe doable , but in other applications requiring more gear options , it seems a hard sell ..
Belts are also relatively inefficient and also very heavy versus chain drive trains.
Uh, I would still prefer enclosed gear hubs or mid boxes. The advantage of belt drive is that it is resistant to outside condition, and this kind of exposes internals .
Will the belts be recyclable? Steel chains are. But which one is more detrimental to manufacture?
Could the "chain ring" be replaced with the same mechanism to make a 4-speed or high/low range?
o was thinking the same, but with pinion gearbox maybe they can make a simple 3 gear hi range front gear box to go with this.
I would worry about its durability, there is a strong bending moment on those swivel bearings when pedalling hard and I think they may end up failing prematurely
Their split belts alone are wildly expensive, I imagine this kit would be astronomically high. Pinion gearboxes are a much better and more durable solution, especially considering this isn’t reasonably priced.
Why couldn't the front belt-ring be made to to do the same trick? It's seems like you would only need a longer tensioner arm to then have 4 gear ratios.