All I know is that whenever I go to B&H, the Canon booth has the biggest crowd. Re the RF 24-105 F/2.8: from Fro's review, its one fault is rather significant vignetting. Otherwise it's a videographer's dream. Will you get the zoom attachment too?
When I upgraded to the Canon R7, I had to trade in my Sigma 150-600C lens because of focus pulsing, opting for the RF 100-500. So I shared the annoyance over Canon's decision to close their market to third party lenses. But I always thought the issue was overblown. Consumers want good quality, budget lenses, which Canon has been supplying in abundance e.g the RF F11 primes, RF 100-400, and RF 200-800. These are affordable, high quality, versatile offerings - whether or not they have Sigma or Tamron labelling. PS it's cute how Simon seems to suggest that he wasn't part of the pile on of critics attacking Canon's strategy 😊
@@stephendando-j4n I had that 85mm the 35mm and the 16mm cheapo ones non L and they all preformed abs brilliantly for me. Only sold them to pay rent and save for a new 35L? xing fingers
I don't know why anyone would be shocked that Canon is #1 ☝in North America, the cream always rises to the top lol - Remember, the gear doesn't make the photographer👍😎 Professional photographers will stay on brand so I don't feel the third party lens issue is that huge a controversy🖐😝
I been going to a bunch of different workshops in the North East Coast US and what is the major camera brand I see from the users at those workshops. Canon mirrorless first and foremost, Sony and then Nikon and Fujifilm. So I can believe the information.
I know a lot of Sony shooters, and they don't really give a hoot about who is number one. All they care about is innovation done by Sony and are happy when the competition ups the game. I doubt Canon is lying as we can see data in their financial statements.
I hope this factual comment is not deleted. As Tony Northrup stated, you have to understand that half of Canon Worldwide sales are in DSLR sales where it has 75% of the market, very impressive. In terms of Worldwide Mirrorless sales, Sony is still ahead in overall mirrorless sales and in sales of fullframe cameras. This is not to diminish Canon as a huge sales force, but just for folks to understand that is NOT the worldwide mirrorless market, or even in Canon's home market in Japan where Sony leads in mirrorless sales, and where the numbers show Canon R mirrorless sales have taken some hits ,partly due to is restrictions on third-party RF lens. Hopefully the rumors are true that maybe this month or very soon Sigma will announce it has a deal with Canon, and will start to be allowed to make RF lenses, that would be good for Canon R users.. FYI, I am not a Canon hater, I used Canon for over 40 years, including while covering War conflict, and won top National and International Photo Awards with my Canon gear. And you also should know that the Top News Services in the world, including Associated Press, All Gannet media including USA Today, Canadian Press, UK's Top News Service all exclusively chose Sony mirrorless gear for all their staff photographers and staff photographer worldwide, including in the USA. None of them chose Canon mirrorless, just a fact. You will see lots of Sony mirrorless cameras covering the Super Bowl as well as many Canon and Nikon cameras. Cheers and best to you all
Why would I delete a well-thought our argument? I only delete people who are rude or attacking others. However, one error in your position, the data posted by Canon is for mirrorless camera sales, not DSLR and point and shoot. I double checked Canon's press release. "MELVILLE, NY, February 8, 2024 -Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions is proud to announce they have solidified the #1 mirrorless camera brand position for a third year in a row in 20231 and was the #1 mirrorless camera brand in the U.S. in 20232." Could there be some marketing speak in there, perhaps, but you are bang on when you say Canon has a lot of DSLR sales. For small businesses that shoot portraits, these old 5D IV cameras still work so why rush to get gear that isn't going to change their business value much. These old cameras were built to last as you have found out.
It is not just camera sales. Canon is #1 in mirrorless sales in the USA. This says nothing about the rest of the world. Last year Canon was #1 in the USA while Sony was #1 in North America.
Thanks Simon. The dominance will continue for the next 3+ years with the R5m2, R1 (along with some refresh of the R apsc cameras) and not forgetting new lens
Dominance isn't beneficial to Canon customers. What we want is competition among the major players. Competition is what makes the R52 and R1 as good as they are. I wonder how good they would be if Sony stayed out of the camera market... ;)
Canon cameras are sexy and reliable, such a great brand. When I was contemplating to purchase a camera, I conducted a research for few weeks. I noted Canon design was awesome, so I went for Canon
Well, they make good products for sure. There are always some bad batches here and there, but overall, if you buy a canon camera, you know it is going to take great pictures. 😊
Wow more great news Simon. Next week should be crazy with announcements/ teasers ! Superbowl this weekend !! We’ll probably see tons of R3’s in action! And if we’re real lucky and look hard enough we might see an R1 pop up there . 👆 Keep your eyes peeled . 👍🏻📸🇨🇦
I got an email from Canon regarding this as well. Not surprising. Canon has almost half of the worldwide camera sales. The US is arguably the largest market. It totally makes sense they would dominate it as well. Sure, you can cherry pick stats from one region or another, but clearly Canon is still the top dog overall. They have tremendous name recognition. When someone walks into a camera store looking to buy their first serious camera they immediately feel comfortable with the Canon name. It's not all about the capabilities of flagships (in fact, very little of it is), and thousands of third party lenses are 100% compatible with the purchase of an inexpensive adapter ring. But honestly, the majority of first time buyers never venture much beyond the kit lens. Ergonomics is another big thing in my mind. I've handled several Sony cameras in the field. They don't come close to feeling like "real" cameras, like Nikon and Canon. Buttons and controls are in weird places. Frankly, they feel cheap. Canon (and Nikon as well) fit real hands, like they are molded to fit.
Budget options is what drives sales. Those young families buying a camera to take pictures of the kids. They may never go beyond the kit lens. They grew up watching all those Canon lenses along the sidelines. Most folks see a white lens and think of Canon, even if a lot of them today are Sony. Ask someone on the street, not a photographer, to name top camera brands, and chances are very good the first thing out of their mouth is "Canon".
I agree. But I'll bet if you ask non photographers to name a camera brand, more will say Canon than will know that Sony even makes cameras! Canon is the Coca Cola of cameras! Name recognition goes a long way if and when they ever decide to buy a camera. People who like nature and the outdoors retire and decide to buy a "good" camera, what do they remember? All those years of dreaming and watching Nature programs on television, "Brought to you by Canon!"
Sony released a statement and it’s similar to the past. Canon is still number one in TOTAL mirrorless because the sell a ton of the older apsc cameras. Sony however is #1 in Full frame in both units and sales and the A7IV is the number one selling full frame camera in both units and sales.
The registration codes indicate the wireless specs. I highly doubt an R1 C would have different wireless specs than the R1. The R5 C and R5 are identical. It is most certainly a dedicated cinema camera or camcorder.
Surprising, considering all the people on the forums and comment sections talking about massive on going exodus to Sony and Nikon. Either not so massive, or they are bringing in more than they are losing.
I always look to the data. Just because a group is loud, doesn't mean it is representative of the majority. I and disappointed we haven't seen Sigma and Tampon making RF glass yet, but I buy L series most of the time. Canon will open up the mount sooner or later, and the patent only has about 9 years left anyhow. Might as well control how third party lenses are licensed now that when they don't have a say in the matter.
Not a big surprise, I have been a photographer for 40 years and Canon professionalism cannot be beat. Nikon is great also, really like their cameras also. Not a fan of Sony in the least. Only my opinion, but Canon is likely to stay #1.
Into planets lately an Astro long fast ish lens around price of a good telescope fast primes usually expensive but if made for Astro only !could get the price down interesting physics
Imagine that! Refusing to open the RF mount to cheap competitors hasn't cratered Canon sales?! Can it really be?! (Of course it can. Nobody ever sold MORE units by enabling their competition.)
A lexus is a Toyota. Built on the same frame as Toyotas, same engines... Second, "I guess toyotas are better" - that's, as you put it, an assumption, not something the data shows.
Maybe I was wrong about Canon lenses. Maybe there are a lot of enthusiasts willing to put down a mortgage payment or two on a lens. It is a little surprising how my father left behind photos that were taken over 80 years ago that look fantastic, and that was right after the great depression. To get the same image quality today would require a $1500 camera using a $2000 lens? Something is seriously skewed in my opinion.
Existing can9n users don't have t spend a single dollar on anew lens to use a mirrorlwss body. Just $100 on an adapter. That's what quite a few have done. Inflation is a killer though. 80 years ago things were a lot cheaper. But the enses today are optically superior. Didn't mean stuff didn't look good back then. Just means the ceiling is raised now. And then add AF, auto aperture, IS...none of which was around then.
I buy all the high end stuff, but recognize that Canon doesn't address the $300 to $1500 market. This is where Sigma comes in. However, a lot of canon customers have come to mirrorless with a bunch of EF glass which work very well. The news today doesn't allow me to read much into the numbers, just that they are what they are.
Who won camera of the Year in 2023 >> answer Nikon Z8 >. will probably do it again with the Z8 in 2024 after the HUGE BENEFICIAL Firmware 2.0 just released >> Toyota sells more than Rolls Royce >> same with Cameras where Nikon will never sell more than a Consumer Brand
Surprise...well not really. I see plenty of Canons in my locals. My local wildlife FB group, about 60% Canon. Event photographers I run into, about 60% Canon. Random people on my photo walks, almost 80%. UA-camrs, easily over 70%. And mirrorless makes up the majority. Canon very early on became synonymous with quality cameras like how Tim Hortons is with their double double coffee, you automatically order one or more. Did cutting off 3rd party lense makers take a hitnon their sales, I have no doubt but it was probably more like a hard pinch to the arm vs a broken forearm.
I don't understand people. I publish rumours and I'm told that I should not publish rumours and wait for releases. When we get a release, I'm told we should not trust them. What do you want, news tailored to your own particular believe and exclude anything hat challenge that? Or do you want to know what's going on?
Canon CANON WAS THE #1 Mirrorless Camera Brand in the U.S. in 2023* READ MORE Period. We Did It Again Canon solidified the #1 mirrorless camera brand position for a third year in a row**. We look forward to developing more innovative solutions throughout 2024 and beyond! Read More › This was in my email, on the canon web site!
It's the same in Canada. Whenever I ask managers at my local camera shops who they sell the most, the answer is always "Canon first, Sony a distant second".
I regard the Sony cameras as being useful for photojournalists and videographers. This does not mean Sony is the best for those scenarios. I do not think Sony is as good as Canon for action photography.
@@mbismbismb this is pretty close to what I’m saying. The Sony gear has never been quite up to the task for high performance, action photography. The Sony a1 and a9 series are coming close, though. Despite their much improved frame rates over previous Sony bodies, I still regard them both as being better suited for photo/video journalists not action photographers.
I don't believe that. Nikon is miles ahead of Canon according to my DPReview got data when it come to mirrorless by a ratio of 3 to 2. in cameras and lenses. The R3 is very slow.
Hey, I see we passed 50K subscribers! Congratulations!
🎉 Yes, thanks. Here's to 60K for 2024 ;)
All I know is that whenever I go to B&H, the Canon booth has the biggest crowd. Re the RF 24-105 F/2.8: from Fro's review, its one fault is rather significant vignetting. Otherwise it's a videographer's dream. Will you get the zoom attachment too?
I won't get the zoom attachment, just too expensive for me. I;ve never said, I wish I could do a smooth zoom ;)
When I upgraded to the Canon R7, I had to trade in my Sigma 150-600C lens because of focus pulsing, opting for the RF 100-500. So I shared the annoyance over Canon's decision to close their market to third party lenses. But I always thought the issue was overblown. Consumers want good quality, budget lenses, which Canon has been supplying in abundance e.g the RF F11 primes, RF 100-400, and RF 200-800. These are affordable, high quality, versatile offerings - whether or not they have Sigma or Tamron labelling. PS it's cute how Simon seems to suggest that he wasn't part of the pile on of critics attacking Canon's strategy 😊
Yes why do they all say rf lenses are pricey there are many affordable rf lenses?
@@stephendando-j4n I had that 85mm the 35mm and the 16mm cheapo ones non L and they all preformed abs brilliantly for me. Only sold them to pay rent and save for a new 35L? xing fingers
I don't know why anyone would be shocked that Canon is #1 ☝in North America, the cream always rises to the top lol - Remember, the gear doesn't make the photographer👍😎 Professional photographers will stay on brand so I don't feel the third party lens issue is that huge a controversy🖐😝
Look at the comments, people are not only shocked, but don't believe the press release.
I wouldnt be surprise if Canon is number 1... its predictable
@@OrdinaryFilmmakermostly sony fanboys we all know that sony fanboys are crazy on internet being keyboard warrior hahaha
I been going to a bunch of different workshops in the North East Coast US and what is the major camera brand I see from the users at those workshops. Canon mirrorless first and foremost, Sony and then Nikon and Fujifilm. So I can believe the information.
I know a lot of Sony shooters, and they don't really give a hoot about who is number one. All they care about is innovation done by Sony and are happy when the competition ups the game.
I doubt Canon is lying as we can see data in their financial statements.
Clearly, South Africa 🇿🇦 is Canon Country as well.
And China and India... those are crucial market.... japan market is just a small pie hahaha
informative news Thanks Simon.
I hope this factual comment is not deleted. As Tony Northrup stated, you have to understand that half of Canon Worldwide sales are in DSLR sales where it has 75% of the market, very impressive. In terms of Worldwide Mirrorless sales, Sony is still ahead in overall mirrorless sales and in sales of fullframe cameras. This is not to diminish Canon as a huge sales force, but just for folks to understand that is NOT the worldwide mirrorless market, or even in Canon's home market in Japan where Sony leads in mirrorless sales, and where the numbers show Canon R mirrorless sales have taken some hits ,partly due to is restrictions on third-party RF lens. Hopefully the rumors are true that maybe this month or very soon Sigma will announce it has a deal with Canon, and will start to be allowed to make RF lenses, that would be good for Canon R users.. FYI, I am not a Canon hater, I used Canon for over 40 years, including while covering War conflict, and won top National and International Photo Awards with my Canon gear. And you also should know that the Top News Services in the world, including Associated Press, All Gannet media including USA Today, Canadian Press, UK's Top News Service all exclusively chose Sony mirrorless gear for all their staff photographers and staff photographer worldwide, including in the USA. None of them chose Canon mirrorless, just a fact. You will see lots of Sony mirrorless cameras covering the Super Bowl as well as many Canon and Nikon cameras. Cheers and best to you all
Why would I delete a well-thought our argument? I only delete people who are rude or attacking others.
However, one error in your position, the data posted by Canon is for mirrorless camera sales, not DSLR and point and shoot. I double checked Canon's press release.
"MELVILLE, NY, February 8, 2024 -Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions is proud to announce they have solidified the #1 mirrorless camera brand position for a third year in a row in 20231 and was the #1 mirrorless camera brand in the U.S. in 20232."
Could there be some marketing speak in there, perhaps, but you are bang on when you say Canon has a lot of DSLR sales. For small businesses that shoot portraits, these old 5D IV cameras still work so why rush to get gear that isn't going to change their business value much. These old cameras were built to last as you have found out.
It is not just camera sales.
Canon is #1 in mirrorless sales in the USA.
This says nothing about the rest of the world.
Last year Canon was #1 in the USA while Sony was #1 in North America.
Yes, we don't have worldwide data yet...
R8 R50, 200-800, 28/2.8... And all the price drops in the mid range camera/lenses keeps Canon competitive in the consumer market
Thanks Simon. The dominance will continue for the next 3+ years with the R5m2, R1 (along with some refresh of the R apsc cameras) and not forgetting new lens
Dominance isn't beneficial to Canon customers. What we want is competition among the major players. Competition is what makes the R52 and R1 as good as they are. I wonder how good they would be if Sony stayed out of the camera market... ;)
Canon cameras are sexy and reliable, such a great brand. When I was contemplating to purchase a camera, I conducted a research for few weeks. I noted Canon design was awesome, so I went for Canon
Any news on a new version or new firmware of the XF605?
Good position for Canon. Also, congrats on busting through the 50k subs ceiling! 🎉
Could there be similar to a 1d for speed and 1ds high megapixel and video?
Canon has been #1 for a while. The question is did they gain or lose market share.
Well, they make good products for sure. There are always some bad batches here and there, but overall, if you buy a canon camera, you know it is going to take great pictures. 😊
Wow more great news Simon. Next week should be crazy with announcements/ teasers !
Superbowl this weekend !!
We’ll probably see tons of R3’s in action! And if we’re real lucky and look hard enough we might see an R1 pop up there . 👆 Keep your eyes peeled . 👍🏻📸🇨🇦
Fingers crossed! I need some excitement, the weather is getting me down ;) I'm checking sources 24/7 my friend.
I'm really looking forward to the Canon announcements. Have a great weekend, too!
Thanks Cathy and I hope you get your lens soon.
@@OrdinaryFilmmaker Thank you so much! Me too!
I got an email from Canon regarding this as well. Not surprising. Canon has almost half of the worldwide camera sales. The US is arguably the largest market. It totally makes sense they would dominate it as well. Sure, you can cherry pick stats from one region or another, but clearly Canon is still the top dog overall. They have tremendous name recognition. When someone walks into a camera store looking to buy their first serious camera they immediately feel comfortable with the Canon name. It's not all about the capabilities of flagships (in fact, very little of it is), and thousands of third party lenses are 100% compatible with the purchase of an inexpensive adapter ring. But honestly, the majority of first time buyers never venture much beyond the kit lens. Ergonomics is another big thing in my mind. I've handled several Sony cameras in the field. They don't come close to feeling like "real" cameras, like Nikon and Canon. Buttons and controls are in weird places. Frankly, they feel cheap. Canon (and Nikon as well) fit real hands, like they are molded to fit.
They went into 2023 without about 46% market share. They are already the largest seller by far.
I don't see Canon mirrorless out in the wild like that. But 2023 they released a lot of buget options
Perhaps. I'm looking forward to seeing CIPA numbers worldwide.
Budget options is what drives sales. Those young families buying a camera to take pictures of the kids. They may never go beyond the kit lens. They grew up watching all those Canon lenses along the sidelines. Most folks see a white lens and think of Canon, even if a lot of them today are Sony. Ask someone on the street, not a photographer, to name top camera brands, and chances are very good the first thing out of their mouth is "Canon".
@@TigaWould typically I'm seeing dlsr canon cameras with a few mirroless here and there. I am seeing far more Sony though.
Budget options often drive a bulk of sales, but we also see cameras like the Z8 and R5 drive a lot of sales.
I agree. But I'll bet if you ask non photographers to name a camera brand, more will say Canon than will know that Sony even makes cameras! Canon is the Coca Cola of cameras! Name recognition goes a long way if and when they ever decide to buy a camera. People who like nature and the outdoors retire and decide to buy a "good" camera, what do they remember? All those years of dreaming and watching Nature programs on television, "Brought to you by Canon!"
Sony released a statement and it’s similar to the past. Canon is still number one in TOTAL mirrorless because the sell a ton of the older apsc cameras. Sony however is #1 in Full frame in both units and sales and the A7IV is the number one selling full frame camera in both units and sales.
The registration codes indicate the wireless specs.
I highly doubt an R1 C would have different wireless specs than the R1.
The R5 C and R5 are identical.
It is most certainly a dedicated cinema camera or camcorder.
Surprising, considering all the people on the forums and comment sections talking about massive on going exodus to Sony and Nikon.
Either not so massive, or they are bringing in more than they are losing.
I always look to the data. Just because a group is loud, doesn't mean it is representative of the majority. I and disappointed we haven't seen Sigma and Tampon making RF glass yet, but I buy L series most of the time. Canon will open up the mount sooner or later, and the patent only has about 9 years left anyhow. Might as well control how third party lenses are licensed now that when they don't have a say in the matter.
i told you this a year ago. the # 1 selling camera in the world for the last 3 years. is the canon R5. even today
Not a big surprise, I have been a photographer for 40 years and Canon professionalism cannot be beat. Nikon is great also, really like their cameras also. Not a fan of Sony in the least. Only my opinion, but Canon is likely to stay #1.
Source: Circana, Retail Tracking Service, U.S. unit sales, 12 months ending December 2021, 2022, and 2023.
Into planets lately an Astro long fast ish lens around price of a good telescope fast primes usually expensive but if made for Astro only !could get the price down interesting physics
Imagine that! Refusing to open the RF mount to cheap competitors hasn't cratered Canon sales?! Can it really be?! (Of course it can. Nobody ever sold MORE units by enabling their competition.)
That's why I like numbers, they don't lie. I'm looking forward tot he CIPA numbers broken down by region.
I heard that they sell a lot of toyotas compared to lexus? I guess toyotas are bether. Numbers dont lie.
A lexus is a Toyota. Built on the same frame as Toyotas, same engines...
Second, "I guess toyotas are better" - that's, as you put it, an assumption, not something the data shows.
@@OrdinaryFilmmaker ,exactly my point. Canon is an average joe camera maker.
@@planetfun85Simon is just sucking canon for no reason
How about that big firmware for Canon R5 if they listen to there customers yeah right
Just because someone listens to you, doesn't mean they are doing to do everything you want. That's not how life works. Have you ever been married?
Maybe I was wrong about Canon lenses. Maybe there are a lot of enthusiasts willing to put down a mortgage payment or two on a lens. It is a little surprising how my father left behind photos that were taken over 80 years ago that look fantastic, and that was right after the great depression. To get the same image quality today would require a $1500 camera using a $2000 lens? Something is seriously skewed in my opinion.
How much was a loaf of bread right after the Great Depression? Probably, accounting for inflation, there isn't that much difference.
Existing can9n users don't have t spend a single dollar on anew lens to use a mirrorlwss body. Just $100 on an adapter. That's what quite a few have done.
Inflation is a killer though. 80 years ago things were a lot cheaper. But the enses today are optically superior. Didn't mean stuff didn't look good back then. Just means the ceiling is raised now. And then add AF, auto aperture, IS...none of which was around then.
I buy all the high end stuff, but recognize that Canon doesn't address the $300 to $1500 market. This is where Sigma comes in. However, a lot of canon customers have come to mirrorless with a bunch of EF glass which work very well. The news today doesn't allow me to read much into the numbers, just that they are what they are.
Surprised😅
Who won camera of the Year in 2023 >> answer Nikon Z8 >. will probably do it again with the Z8 in 2024 after the HUGE BENEFICIAL Firmware 2.0 just released >> Toyota sells more than Rolls Royce >> same with Cameras where Nikon will never sell more than a Consumer Brand
That's a big assumption. It's two years old. It's likely that the R52 will be better.... it's in Canon's court ;)
Surprise...well not really. I see
plenty of Canons in my locals. My local wildlife FB group, about 60% Canon. Event photographers I run into, about 60% Canon. Random people on my photo walks, almost 80%. UA-camrs, easily over 70%. And mirrorless makes up the majority. Canon very early on became synonymous with quality cameras like how Tim Hortons is with their double double coffee, you automatically order one or more. Did cutting off 3rd party lense makers take a hitnon their sales, I have no doubt but it was probably more like a hard pinch to the arm vs a broken forearm.
They issued a press release so I guess this must be true. 😂
I don't understand people. I publish rumours and I'm told that I should not publish rumours and wait for releases. When we get a release, I'm told we should not trust them. What do you want, news tailored to your own particular believe and exclude anything hat challenge that? Or do you want to know what's going on?
Canon
CANON WAS THE
#1 Mirrorless Camera Brand in the U.S. in 2023*
READ MORE
Period.
We Did It Again
Canon solidified the #1 mirrorless camera brand position for a third year in a row**. We look forward to developing more innovative solutions throughout 2024 and beyond!
Read More ›
This was in my email, on the canon web site!
It's the same in Canada. Whenever I ask managers at my local camera shops who they sell the most, the answer is always "Canon first, Sony a distant second".
Cool
Return of DRIS, sucker
Who cares
I regard the Sony cameras as being useful for photojournalists and videographers.
This does not mean Sony is the best for those scenarios. I do not think Sony is as good as Canon for action photography.
This just shows how well Canon is selling mirrorless cameras n the United States.
Sony is not for profesional setting, they are good for hobbyist and youtubers
@@mbismbismb this is pretty close to what I’m saying. The Sony gear has never been quite up to the task for high performance, action photography.
The Sony a1 and a9 series are coming close, though. Despite their much improved frame rates over previous Sony bodies, I still regard them both as being better suited for photo/video journalists not action photographers.
@@thesharpercoder and i dont see much photographers from famous magazine photoshoot using sony..
I don't believe that.
Nikon is miles ahead of Canon according to my DPReview got data when it come to mirrorless by a ratio of 3 to 2. in cameras and lenses.
The R3 is very slow.
🤣😂🤣
Google keyword : filter bubble, survivorship bias
It's in their press release and financial filings. The press release could be tilted with marketing specs, but financials are regulated.
They are miles ahead in many ways, but Mercedes Benz is miles ahead of Chevrolet in many ways. Doesn't mean they outsell them.