Also a bit about Judaism if you know that Judeo-Christian isn't a thing because Christianity and Judaism developed along seperate paths so the New Testament depictions have nothing to do with Judaism and Jews never stopped reading Hebrew (meaning the mistranslation was a christian thing), so the "right hand of God that tests humanity to see if they're worthy" is just the Jewish depiction. If you didn't know that, you you'd leave less informed about Judaism! Yay! /s
@@AdumbroDeus so being gay isn’t bad as Christians say, cuz I am tired of them acting on some demon lol. I’m catholic never bothered to read the Bible though
@@lulu_TheWitchBoy I mean, from a Christian perspective? They have their own internal logic for how they read Jewish scripture based on fitting it into a universal faith-based religion mold. That said that internal logic is the basis for Christianity and is really makes no sense as a way to read an ethnohistory of a mostly orthopraxical ethnoreligion. So Christianity kinda doesn't make sense imo lol
Jacob once fought a fucking angel for a whole day just because he wanted the angel to give in a blessing. The angel fucking gave up and gave him his blessing just so Jacob would leave him alone. There are real statues of this over the world.
I'm Catholic and I've read the Bible and even with all it gives it doesn't give some good info on who Satan and Lucifer are or even what side they are on. I did feel though that Satan and Lucifer are actually two different beings but have their own roles in regards to their relationship with humanity. Just another way to look at it. I will still follow God but I think the main point overall is that the devil can be anyone or anything that tries tempt us to sin. Sorry if I'm preaching.
Isn't Yaldabaoth just a really powerful thing that took form from the desires of the people of Tokyo? I think Satanael is the only one worth discussing here
When I first saw Satan in the fusion menu in P5, I started laughing maniacally. It was just funny how, as a Christian, I could use the Devil as a weapon for good.
Actually in the SMT series the duality of good/evil is not relevant, It's rather a Law/chaos adversity. For example in SMT 3, the angels were ruthless and were more inclined to chaos where the strong dominates the weak.
@@juandom6432I realize that now, but when I made that comment, I was still fairly new to the SMT franchise, however I was mostly talking about Satan in relevancy to my Christianity. It had very little to do with Good vs. Evil.
I mean Fake Igor gave total satan vibes. I thought it cheeky when I noticed in my first plathrough. I plan on defeating him with the Satan persona in royal
TLDR: Nyarly is actually Satan and he's here to tempt us to play Shin Megami Tensei to test us. Nice try Nyarly, but I saw through your wicked plans! 👺
Many myths and religous stories are more comedy than anything else really. Lucifer is in the stories more of a teenager with daddy issues than the lord of darkness
My guy, people have literally tried to kill each other over Voltron and Steven Universe. Razors embedded in cookies and cyberbullying a teenager into suicide. Soap Operas could start wars.
Honestly, I've been into western occultism for years and it never ceases to surprise me how a Japanese game company seem to have a better grasp of western esotericism than almost any living occult fiction writers here in the west.SMT nocturne is amazing, even the way they present creation of destruction. its honestly really impressive. even the grindy at times gameplay is kinda thematic at times. idk if on purpose or not but it doesn't really matter. its just good shit. I guess maybe it helps to have Buddhism and Shinto as the main religions, they have a better grasp of weird metaphysical stuff culturally and they don't have all that cultural baggage around Christian theology.
But Bhuddism and Shinto aren't... main? Christianity and Islam are the two main Religions in the world today and they are both very important pieces of history, regardless of how you feel about them or their community surrounding them of course
@@GameStrikerX2 .... I know it's worded weirdly but it's pretty clear they're saying the main religions they creators have experience with, not main worldwide religions. They're contrasting people who have Christianity as their main religions.
From what I can tell, Helel is Lucifer before his fall, Lucifer is after his fall, and Satan is the old testament depiction of him. The first two are the same, but Satan is something else entirely. This might explain why all of them have different Arcanas in several games. Although I might be wrong about all of this.
Woah, a chance to actually use my philosophy of religion degree! Okay, so, you said a lot of great things, but there is another interpretation of the differences between the Satan of the Old Testament and the Satan of the New Testament. Many secular and religious scholars believe that (since Satan merely means "Adversary" or "Accuser") Satan is merely a title given to two beings, the Satan of Job and the Lucifer of Genesis and the New Testament, roughly equating to the depiction of Satan and Lucifer in SMT (although, like you said, Lucifer also draws inspiration from Enlightenment-era Lucifer romanticization).
Interesting, I suppose there's no reason why there couldn't be more than one adversary and if Jesus would've been tempted as a human then he also would've become "Satan".
It is fun to ponder, but regardless of the source of our temptations, scripture is clear that we as individuals are held accountable for our sin. If there is a God, I doubt I'll be able to say "you should have been more clear on whether Satan and Lucifer are the same person."
No pointing out that Judaism and Christianity just don't have a consistent interpretation of Satan so this video was actually about contrasting different christian readings. What a disappointment.
I mean when learning about the bible, you never look it as A Book, but instead A Series of Books, written by different authors, spanning different eras and generations, intended for different audiences of different groups, that's why you first start reading it, you think your seeing contradictions when in reality it's just different author's point of views, I have a Bible that has the Author, the Date it was written in, and it's original intended audience written along with the Book it is referring to.
And then they mixed him with Mastema (yeah, from Strange Journey, but actually an angel in Jubilees) and Baal (some other god that was popular in Canaan).
@@neonayse8803 baal is badass enough to have been worshipped in the same temple as yhvh at one point There are canaanite myths that have El as the original chief god then ba-el(baal) then taking over only for another god yahweh finally defeating baal to become chief god
Great research man! THIS is why I fell in love with jRPGs that takes ancient text, religion, mythologies and incorporates them into their stories and characters.
By the way, the reference of Satan in Job is actually "the Satan", meaning the person who is adversarial. Satan isn't the name of the person, more like a description.
Not only was this a fantastic description of Satan and Lucifer in Megami Tensei, but it was also a great lesson in theology. Thanks for all your content man!
Love both their designs. Both really capture the terrifying menace and the dark grandeur of what Satan and Lucifer represent. Also they just flat out look rad as hell.
I recently found a book written in old German latters and in German, there Satan and Lucifer are two distinct personalities. Satan was the Right Hand of Lucifer. Also in demon classicifations, Satan is the embodiment of wrath and Lucifer of Pride, thus both must coexist, since pride does not dissolve just because there is hatered (the idea that it they are still the same does not convince me anymore). I also once read About (but I do not remember there), that Satan was only the keeper of hell, who Held Lucifer emprisioned in hell, and still works FOR God, also by punishing sinners, and throw them to hell, while Lucifer is the Devil, who rebelled against God and was cast into hell thereof, but "corrupts" God's creations (so he is the "light brigner", the one who wants everyone to release its full potential). This is also partly how both are depict in SMT 4: Satan still the arbiter of God, but Lucifer the rebel, who wants to spread the seed of Knowledge over all mankind
Lucifer is cooler, when he disguise himself as a random blonde man/woman/kid/old man...if you see a blonde person he has a high chance of being Lucifer.
"Lucifer" actually means "lightbringer". Morning star is the title given to Venus, the planet, that can be seen in the sky with the naked eye and looks like a super bright star and is the last light that can be seen in the sky at the early morning. When the bible was translated from old hebrew to latin they translated the term used for Venus as "lucifer". For some weird ass reason when translating from latin people just assumed lucifer was a name and that the passage on Isaiah was referring to a fallen angel instead of the King of Babylon.
“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him“ -Revelation 12:7-9
@@FastestBanneker_student yes. Also the word lucifer isn't the name of the devil before the fall. The word is latin and most likely has been added to the vulgate which in turn has passed over into english translations of the bible. Beezlebub (lord of flies), Satan and the devil are all the same individual. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the bible. Pick up the bible and read it if you want to know the truth.
@@rawrdino7046 As I was reading this, the thought came to mind; The dmDragon may have been Lucifer, and Satan (Adversary) may have reffered to the angels that followed the rebellion against God.
Beelzebub is a translational corruption of baal, the lord of those that fly, the meaning of which got twisted into "lord of the flies" a gaff iconic enough to become the title of a book.
The concept of Satan in theology is mostly a placeholder for the things you describe, temptation, cruelty, judgment and the like, but Lucifer holds an interesting place in the gestalt of human consciousness. A sort of meta-rebel, if you will.
In my first playthrough of my first Persona game, which was P4G, I was around lv. 24 when a fusion accident gave me Satan. Needless to say, it was awesome getting it but I didn't use it because I wanted to get through the game normally
@@davidlarkin1040 Yeah I held off on using it until much later in the game. I really didn't want to take advantage of a massive fluke like that my first time playing
I find it a little disappointing that SMT has yet to have Satan and Lucifer interact, hell maybe as allies or enemies depending on which interpretation you want. Also what bums me out is that SMT has yet to address the Watcher Angels.
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 yeah because I have the disposable income and time to play every smt game. Maybe Atlus work to get all there stuff on a easily accessible platform and i wouldn't be having these problems.
The “satan” of the old testament is likely a mistranslation of “shaytan” which means something like ‘adversary’ or ‘judge’. In the Old Testament it’s basically a role that someone takes to refute the idea of being a saint. Like the idea of the devils advocate
To give you an idea of the disparity between revelations and the Old Testament, Jesus, or rather John who claims he had a vision of Jesus, calls himself the morning star, this is because in Roman/Greek culture, "Morning Star" is seen as a symbol of beauty, unlike Hebrew culture which sees it as a sign of arrogance
Well, in some religions they are also thought to be different beings. It's very complicated situation since I do agree there has to be some form of mistranslation when it comes to the bible. I would also say another issue would be interpretation. You gotta remember outside of the bible. SMT has also taken influence from famous works such as Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno that also give their own take on the character(s). Mix that with a Japanese perspective of western religion and other things. And since there is also plenty of abrahamic religions out there too many to name. I would imagine Atlus, just made Satan and Lucifer different characters to make more demons and to probably please more people. It's really hard to say.
@lorenzo Alessandrini Pretty much. SMT has a lot of themes and ideas it wants you to sit on and think about and look into. I highly respect that about SMT and Atlus.
@lorenzo Alessandrini In Islam there's also 2 type of demon, the syaitan and the iblis and I am to this day is confused to the difference between them.
Aimi stop procrastinating. Incorrect, Iblis was a jinn who later became the shaitan we all know and hate. Mistranslations may have led to the confusions between the abrahamic religions. King Solomon ( an Islamic prophet as well) used to be able to communicate with all life forms, including jinns, and had mastery over them unlike any other and could control them. This is where the 'demon' occultic idea may have came from. Satan is also technically a jinn, so maybe that's where the idea of 'demon' came from. But jinns are just like humans, capable, of good and evil. They're just more ancient and can't be seen by humans, they usually populate oceans, forests etc because they also overpopulate us as well. That's why those areas are usually associated with misfortune and eeriness. So our ancestors weren't idiots, there was a reason to the supposed madness Edit: correction they don't populate oceans and trees, that's a human misconception. They live underground
In Jewish texts, all Satan really is just an agent of God who's job is just tempt humanity thats it. He's definitely not the same being as Lucifer. He's not even a demon. He's just an angel.
When Satan turns against god in the Law ending of Shin Megami Tensei 2 he specifically says that god committed "genocide". Given that Satan was being purely objective in his purpose, a notion strengthened by the fact that after serving his purpose he turns into a pillar of dirt, I'm willing to bet that he meant genocide literally. If that is the case he is likely talking not about the fact that God killed all the humans who didn't obey him, as there are still humans on the ark. But rather that he killed all of the demons who were never given the option to side with him, or even the mutants living in the Underworld.
Lilith is a story thag got cut at nicea, about a human being created before Eve, that rebelled against god on her own, but I do t think any mention of hwr remains in the canonized bible.
My favorite Lucifer design is the six-winged angel. A subtle detail in that the angelic choir of Seraphim are depicted as seven-winged angels, but Lucifer in some mythologies had one of his wings ripped off (either by the archangel Michael or the archangel Uriel depending) during his rebellion. I thought it was a clever allusion to the complex mythology around him in later sources especially Gnostic ones. Other nice subtle touches include the lack of a belly button (he wasn't born of woman, he was created from red clay), and the burial shroud around him in the Dx2 version. I absolutely love the depiction in SMT Digital Devil Downloader Liberation x2 AKA SMT Liberation Dx2 the mobile game, where it's a blend of his SMT and Persona depictions, including his signature unique skill Morning Star.
I want to ask, what about Jesus in the SMT universe ? I don't think that he would be happy with how YHVH is acting, especially in SMT 2 and IV Apocalypse
I think it's fair to say that the story in SMT is more inspired by Judaism than Christianity, which is why Jesus has never appeared in any of the games (unless you count Agony or the Persona 3 protagonist). *SPOILERS* . . . . . . . . . . . . . I can't say anything about SMTII, but, in Apocalypse, YHVH became an enemy of the Great Will. One theory I had was that it could be that YHVH and the Great Will are avatars for the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the protagonist is the avatar of Jesus, who was sent by the Great Will to stop him, but that's just my theory.
Centurionzo 12 Jesus would 100% support YHVH’s actions. Read the Book of Revelation, Jesus has absolutely no problem with murdering anyone who goes against his will. Revelation 19:19-21 “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” By the way, there is a Jesus analogue in SMT. The Law Hero in SMT I becomes the Messiah (in the Christian sense, not as in IV Apocalypse) after death and in SMT II you are an artificial version of the Messiah.
Nyarly It’s based on Kaabalah, in Jewish mysticism God is somewhat of a panetheistic deity as the universe is only a part of him. In his infinite form Ein Sof he cannot manifest inside of a finite universe, so he emanates himself through Sefirot (the Tree of Life). When all of the Sefirot come together they form Adam Kadom, this is the highest form of God that manifests itself in our universe, he is YHVH. The Great Will is the Ein Sof, this why he can be described as a separate being from YHVH (like in MT II and IV Apocalypse), and at the same time be equivalent with YHVH (Nocturne and Devil Summoner).
OMG I was at the SMT cosplay gathering at AX as FeMC!!! I just now discovered your UA-cam channel!! What a small world :D damn that was almost over a year ago...
from my understanding, jewish has no differentiation between good and evil. Everything happens because God's will, either bad or good. That's why Satan is not even evil. Perhaps, the new testament is influenced by the greek philosopher or zoroastrianism. So, the good and evil concept even exists in new testament
I believe that old gods just go by different names and are likely demons. Think how many times they recycled Ishtar/Inanna/Astarte/Aphrodite/Venus. The Greeks and Egyptians also had plenty of overlap. Allah is likely the newest iteration of Baal honestly.
@@gottesurteil3201 Allah is the same Abrahamic god of Judaism and Christianity. Allah literally just means "the creator"; they are the same figure as YHWH and Jehovah, just in a different language
And furthermore the reason Islam came about was a rejection of the "old gods" of the middle east (of which Ba'al is one), primarily rejecting the practice of idolatry
generally, pretty good video, especially for people not familiar with the subject in general. But there's a few things I want to say. 8:16 actually is just Gideon making stuff up. I'm pretty sure the original script just had him rebel in the end because YHVH was incompatible with a true law world. I'll edit the source here if I find it. He still wanted to use the meggido arc because it's a necessary means to establishing a law world. wanting to overthrow God to establish anarcho-monarchism is an ideology though. And it kinda goes with all of the "wrld of str" stuff when you consider that the Beast/powerful worldly rulers and Satan are the strong shaping a totalitarian world that goes in their benefit. it's important to consider second temple Judaism when looking at satan's development. Although the apocalyptic literature from that time isn't canon, its texts like the book of Enoch clearly establish Satan and demons as full on enemies of God. So by the 1st century AD the idea certainly wasn't something out of left field. Secondly, as you said, satan is just hebrew for 'opposer', so there wouldn't be a contradiction in the old testament Ha-Satan and new testament fallen Satan coexisting as separate beings. Then if we take the catholic christian canon as true, revelation is true, which implies that satan fell before the fall of man because of him wanting to overtake heaven/the world (revelation 12:9). Third point is, the synoptic gospels and John clearly present Satan as an outright enemy and not a ha-satan. For example Matthew 12:22-28 implies Satan is on the same side as the demons and pagan gods (taking into conideration that beelzebub is just a mock name of baal national deities in general), and John is very explicit about Satan being the evil ruler of the world (John 8:39-47 and 14:28-31)
Ok, while Christianity in general started off as a splinter group of Judaism (a lot of the theology is from the Essenes even while a lot of Christian culture is based on the Romans), so there is a certain amount of things in Christianity that came from minority views in Jewish thought that subsequently were rejected. That it theoretically could've originally came from a Jewish group isn't the same as it being a the Jewish position on Satan. While it's certainly possible the original authors of the gospels were within this aforementioned possible group of Jews that thought this way, and it remained the dominant view because christianity became a less Hebrew speaking group so the issues weren't obvious between his description as God's tester and fallen angel and demon even after it was never more than a minority view in Judaism and even that minority has long abandoned it. This isn't necessarily the case because we don't have anywhere close to the original NT manuscripts in their original form, the synoptics heavily use Satan as a tester (using the specific word) but then also share an incident where he's opposed to God. Even Matthew (who were know was a Jew writing for a Jewish audience) has it, it makes little sense to use a minority Jewish view as a significant part of your argument to Jews, so there's a firm possibility that was a later translation/error. John 8:39-47 doesn't reference Satan by name in the KJV (or DR, or the Latin Vulgate for that matter), he's referenced in the last supper which still fills a role of tester, similar to Job. Revelations on the other hand, is littered with references to Satan being pure evil, coincidentally it probably doesn't have Jewish authorship and the version of the Tanakh it's referencing is probably a Greek translation. Oh and Enoch doesn't refer to Satan as a fallen angel, it refers to azazel which later christian thought equated with Satan. Point is, there'd have to be more evidence to assert that the Jews in early christianity saw Satan this way. But either way, it certainly doesn't make a strong case for a Jewish view, it's possible it was a minority Jewish view at the time which ultimately died in favor of maintaining the view presented in the Tanakh, but that doesn't substantiate equating the Jewish and Christian images of Satan, the Christian view of Satan really doesn't fit with the Tanakh, at all.
You described it so well. When I played SMT 2 in 1994, I was completely baffled by why Satan and Lucifer were two different characters. With there being little resources for me to check back then,I concluded that, well, Lucifer is the name of the chief fallen angel while Satan is a title. The title could be assigned to any angel of YHWH's choosing.
"Because of a poor translation of the Hebrew Bible into English it's not entirely clear what Satan's role in Judeo-Christianity is" That's because there's no such thing as Judeo-Christianity. The New Testament isn't at all part of Judaism and while the Old Testament uses the Tanakh as it's textual source, it didn't go through the recursive translations (cause there was always a Hebrew speaking Jewish community) and the New Testament has nothing to do with Judaism. Furthermore Judaism isn't just a religion of the past that became static when Christianity appeared, it continued to evolve along it's own lines, just like Christianity did. So what you refer to as the "old testament" view of Satan is pretty much just the traditional Jewish understanding. The reason that the Christian view of Satan is so confusing is that it's trying to make sense of mashing two completely different traditions together, with completely different views of God, different values, and different philosophical and cultural objectives. So ya, just label this as about Christianity, you brought in elements from Judaism because Christianity uses them, but none of the conclusions have anything to do with Judaism and treating the traditions as having similar views on pretty much anything just leaves people more confused about Judaism. Well, except Lucifer, that's actually the traditional Jewish understanding, that it was a reference to the King of Babylon.
Yeah I remember first learning that Morning Star was just a reference to Babylonian royalty and I felt ripped off. Turns out Lucy was just some shit Paradise Lost made the fuck up.
@@randomfox12245 yep, but Satan in Jewish tradition is an objectively more interesting character than Miltons Lucifer/Satan Mashup. Milton's Paradise Lost is still great literature though. edit: fixed wrong author, always reread your comments for stupid mistakes before posting!
@@hahahahtrevor Oops, ya paradise loss was Milton, I guess for some reason I conflated it with the divine comedy in my head when I wrote the comment. Cause I was definitely talking about the image of Satan Milton used in paradise lost (though the idea of course was far older). Just a reminder to always double check what you write for silly mistakes, thanks >_>
@@AdumbroDeus Haha no problem! Also, I've been going through this comment section and reading a lot of your comments, and I just wanted to say that you're definitely right. Satan is a label more than a name or even a title and can (and most likely does) refer to multiple entities. It's worth noting that Satan as a label doesn't even mean that the entity is adversarial to God, as I'm like 99% sure the Satan of Job is labeled Satan because he's Job's adversary, not God's. Lucifer obviously refers to the King of Babylon, most like Nebuchadnezzar II, not any kind of fallen angel or demon, and any through line between the two (if there is any) came from the New Testament, a completely separate work in its own right and even a completely separate work between its own books. The most we get is Revelation, which itself is a thinly-veiled long-form metaphor for the tyranny of Emperor Nero (hence the Number of the Beast), and shouldn't be taken as a portent of the future, like a lot of Christian groups like to believe today. You're right that the video is from a Judeo-Christian (read fully Christian) standpoint, because traditional Judaism and Christianity are entirely separate, much like Islam and Judaism, with Christianity simply piggy-backing off Judaism as a successor school of thought (because everything needs legitimacy). Sorry this comment is so damn long lol. All this is coming from a man who has studied pretty much every aspect of my religion I could get my hands on. People just don't understand that it's ok to have inconsistencies when it comes to human thought. Nothing's perfect, demons matter just as much as angels, there are incorrect translations, yada yada
It's pretty simple when you get down to it. Lucifer = Christian Devil (called Satan in the New Testament, implied being the Serpent in the Old Testament) Satan = Judaic angel (called ha-satan in the Old Testament) They are two different beings in the Biblical texts, whenever ha-satan is mentioned its used as a title and is explicitly a part of the Divine Council. In later Apocryphal works this charecter is named Mastema. Satan in the New Testament is used as a name (as is Beelzebub, but later occult texts and Paradise Lost popularized the idea of Beelzebub being Satan's right hand man. Lucifer was not originally a name for the Devil, but has been for nearly two millenniums now, so Megaten decided to go with this to differentiate the character from ha-satan and Beelzebub) and is explicitly in rebellion against God. In the intertestamental period there was a development of a charecter who opposed Yahweh, characters such as Azazel, Samyaza and the other Grigori, this culminated into the Satan we know in the New Testament. The reason these two share the same name is because they are both "adversaries", though one (ha-satan) is an accuser towards mankind, the other is the Adversary of God (which interestingly translates into Hebrew as Satanael).
@@penelopeglamour845 To be more specific, in gnosticism, Yaldabaoth is the God of the material world, but not the creator and usurps the role of the creator, thus is seen as a false god. Satanael is his angel that realizes the truth and rebels against him. SMT has a TON of references to gnosticism, and the ending of P5 is flat out ripped from it.
P5 (and the other games too I guess) is gnostic, their god is bot a true benevolent god, but a selfish being that created a universe to lord over, but still subordinate to some higher state of reality, commonly refferd to in thology as a demiurge. This one they named yaeldabaoth. In gnosticism, satanael is the name given to the righteous rebel against the false god of the demiurge.
I was actually reading on this topic a couple of weeks ago and got really confused about Satan´s role in the old testament and the shift in Revelations. I suppose you could attribute that like you said to the translation of the bible, seeing as "Satan" is the title given to an agressor and all.
Visionary Items do go into it more when Satan is frozen in carbonite during II. Majin Tensei and Megami Tensei II also make a point he serves God even if they don't do much with it, contrasting Lucifer clearly being Devilman Satan but with clothes. Plus that plot twist on Majin Tensei where he's the Heroines father and made her to help the hero. Basically think Lucifer of Devilman but with Crybabys interpretation in games like 4
I believe in the old Testament it's just that the translation screws some things up. Satan was already fallen,but that didn't mean he couldn't speak to god. God is omnipotent after all, see he can argubly hear everything. He actually wasn't in heaven in job
The concept of Satan being fallen just, isn't a thing in Judaism. So, no any implications of that in the old testament are a product of poor translation of the Tanakh.
@@kamishin7135 It's just the product of two different religions being conflated. Satan is a divine prosecutor in Judaism, and a rebellious angel that is also Lucifer in Christianity. The Torah isn't inconsistent on this, the Bible is because it insists on using Judaism's texts. Also, the Tanakh is more of an ethnohistory than 100% literal history all the time, that's a christian fundamentalist idea.
@@AdumbroDeus yes I know but I said this to somebody who is a literalist. I just wanted to show, that if the devil and god really existed, Lucifer wouldn't be able to confuse humans, if it was all literal
This has taught me more about how to interpret satan than church has taught me period. "Satan do bad. Satan Evil" Or " necessary evils, seperate identities, trial or malice."
This is why the video is so frustrating to me. That's not the takeaway you should get. Satan as a bad guy and fallen Angel, combined with Lucifer is the Christian interpretation of Satan. Satan as a tempter and Divine Prosecutor is a Jewish interpretation of Satan. That one is "wrong" instead of the product of different traditions is what you conflate those traditions instead of taking them individually. Judeo-Christian is not a thing.
This might be a SMT video but you absolutely killed it with the message. All this is in the game for a reason, it's not inspired. Movie, video games, art of all forms come from spirits and the spirit realm. Lucifer is the Light Bearer, Satan is the God of death and destruction as well as the world. They can't possibly be the same. So thanks for separating them for others.
Thank you for making this video, I've been arguing the difference of these characters for years. The one thing I want to point out is the only thing consistent about the Bible is that it's inconsistent.
I mean, you're mashing together two entirely different religious traditions with entirely different value systems. Of course there's gonna be inconsistency! Which is why I found it so frustrated he insisted on using "Judeo-Christianity". Satan's role in Judaism is of a tester, it's christianity that has to figure out how to marry competing roles of tester for God and adversary of God.
I hope they'll bring Satanael as a pre-fallen tempter version of Satan into the main Shin Megam Tensi serious instead of locking him as Jokers persona.
"As someone born into an all-white, Southern Baptist family in Georgia." Same, except I'm mixed. This video nailed the accuracy with the confusion over Satan, Lucifer and the Devil.
Also just some trivia. Satan in Apocalypse is the highest leveled Demon in the series, at level 120, you can only fuse him on New Game Plus. And yeah Megido Arc is definately the strongest attack move in Megaten. before the highest level demon was I believe Asura-o in the first Megaten game at level 110, but you couldn't fuse him in that game, he did join as a ally tho on the Chaos path.
I've always considered Satan and Lucifer from the non-IV games as being fairly consistent. Satan is an angel responsible for testing the faith of followers and as a judge of the wicked. Lucifer is a fallen angel who desires chaos and the dethroning of YHVH, eager to liberate demons and unleash the potential of humans by releasing them from God's chains. Then in IV/Apocalypse, they both get new roles along with new designs and I just see them as completely different entities. My memory of IV is a little hazy, but Lucifer just seemed to seek the world of the strong and harbored a hatred for YHVH. Satan's new character is super apparent as he orchestrated the war between law and chaos for so long, and is made up of Lucifer and Merkabah. Hell, in SMT II Satan and Lucifer were enemies on opposite sides while they're part of the same being in Apocalypse.
Apocalypse is... weird. They tried to do something new, but I think they kinda messed up everything they had established before. I realy hate Apocalypse's story.
@@deathzexion I do feel the whole conflict in IV/Apocalypse wasn't as much orchestrated by Satan as it was Orchestrated by YHVH which is why Lucifer feels to be more nefarious than Merkabah (so that Law side is portrayed more favorably than Chaos)
Great video! I would like to give the eastern orthodox perspective on this subject if that's OK. So to us satan and devil are like titles. A devil/demon is a satan and a satan is a devil. In Greek the word for devil is διάβολος (daivolos), meaning the one who deceives and accuses. Satan in Hebrew means the adversery or the enemy, we see that both titles fit every demon. Now the Satan and the Devil are all the same demon Lucifer since he was the greatest angel makes sense to be the greatest demon/devil /Satan. Our Church Fathers do not take a dogmatic approach to whether Lucifer or another high ranking demon are the ones who appear in the different stories of the Bible but in every story they are bad and they try to deceive. Now why is satan in God's divine council in Job. In the orthodox faith heaven and hell are not physical places but rather states of being. We believe that God is like a consuming fire, so those who reject Him feel His love like hellfire and those who love Him as a gentle warmth. Since God is everywhere (πανταχού παρόν), every angel and demon are in His presence. I hope you will find these interesting. And again great video.
Great explenation, though you didn't mention that satan is also a title often associated with angels (example being Mastema possibly being the same satan as in book of Job). The reason why Lucifer is called THE Satan is because he is the ultimate adversary, as he opposes God himself, while other angels barring the title often just opose a human, like the satan in the Book of Job opposing Job.
The el suffix denotes the one who has it as being of the house of El, that is of the house of the Hebrew god. Both El and YHWH are seen as being names of this being, although one was indeed more popular. Also Samael does not refer to Satanael but the Gnostic false god of creation. Which ironically is better equated with YHWH. He was a false god not because he didn't make things, he was responsible for all of physical creation, but because he falsely took the title of most high for himself while being ignorant of the fact there were many more beings higher up the divine totem pole than him. Whether he is seen as being merely a well intentioned fool or actively hostile is a matter up to debate.
I loved learning about the translation issues and devil vs lucifer vs satan in bible study, im Catholic and it was fascinating to learn about the Ethiopian bible
I've always felt that Lucifer/Satan in SMT was heavily inspired by his depiction in Paradise Lost where he acts as antagonist and a bit like a protagonist in a greek tragedy. A rebellious force of change to combat the stagnant order of God who ends up damning humanity and his comrade angels by paving the way to hell with his good intentions. Given the heavy vein of Jungian psychology in SMT and Persona, it could be reasonable to assume that Lucifer and Satan are a manifestion of the human desire to oppose the order of things. With Lucifer as that which opposes for the sake of others, and Satan as that which opposes for the sake of self.
I think that Jungian psychology works better with Persona: In those games, they come from the consciousness of humans to defend their psyche. However, Jungian psychology has a clear distinction between "psyche" (all psychic processes) and "soul" (our personality). The soul is probably the reason why demons/personas show up, because someone's soul is being threatened in some sort of way (mostly seen in P4)
Its all because of that stupid isaiah translation "lucifer" is a latin word How in the world is that his original name when all other angels are named in hebrew The old testament was originally in hebrew Why suddenly include a single latin word? Why the inconsistency there? Why in a hebrew text would there be a latin word? In the original hebrew the word "helel" is used and THAT got translated into lucifer in latin and then unchanged from latin in the KJV Since "lucifer" stands out and sounds like a proper name and that the king of babylon's fall sounds like the fall of satan in revelations people thought its the same thing when its not Lucifer does not exist biblically However there are some old canaanite myths dealing with one god rebelling against the chief god that sounds like the tale of lucifer and that tradition might have incluenced the oral folklore until finally being formalized later on as the religion of the bible spread But within the bible itself there is no lucifer
Probably because the average American Christian doesn't actually read the bible, just follow whatever the preacher says blindly. This I say as someone who actually tries to study theology and believes in god.
pretty amazing explanation, you might find interesting in what jehova witnesses has to offer, they make a sort of timeline that tries to explain why Satan was expelled from the heaven and what happened to human kind when he landed on earth. its pretty bonkers and leave you thinking on it. (apologizes for the terrible english, it is not my primary lenguage). hope you find it interesting and maybe we receive more explanation/lore on the SMT series, have a good one!
Oh, shoot. I guess the edgy story I wrote about Satan in high school was close to the original thing; portraying him as not evil, but a harsh judicator. Mislabeled because he punishes people, so they attribute him to pain and suffering.
All these comments and nobody mentions that these interpretations aren't pulled from what we currently understand as Christianity and Judaism. They're pulled from Gnosticism, which is an old world version of these religions. It's more similar to Greek Mytholigy in how its stories are told and function.
Beelzebub makes sense at least because he was seen as a deity by Caananites (as Baal) before Christians started teaching that he was an incarnation of the devil. It was commonplace for Chrisitans to preach old Pagan gods as actually being demons tricking humans into worshiping them. Astaroth and Ishtar is another example.
This is one of tve teasons I love Megaten. You come to look a bit nore info on one if your favorite Personas and you end uo getting a shirt class on theology
old testament: Satan
new testament: Satanael
Revelations: Satan picaro
Basically the Netflix adaptation meme
Jack o lantern picaro?
Ahhahahahahahahah lol
New revelations: Satanael Picaro
@@BitchChill HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Gotta hate those crappy translations. Especially the line where Jesus says “what a beautiful Jerusalem *chew*”
The people who make them have no dignity
Also, *I AM THE FUCKING GOD*
DON'T BE DEVIL
Hate it when Satan unleashes his Stand Power
Is that a motherfuckin' JoJo's reference?
I came here to learn about SMT and left with a lesson on Christianity
Also a bit about Judaism if you know that Judeo-Christian isn't a thing because Christianity and Judaism developed along seperate paths so the New Testament depictions have nothing to do with Judaism and Jews never stopped reading Hebrew (meaning the mistranslation was a christian thing), so the "right hand of God that tests humanity to see if they're worthy" is just the Jewish depiction.
If you didn't know that, you you'd leave less informed about Judaism! Yay! /s
@@AdumbroDeus so being gay isn’t bad as Christians say, cuz I am tired of them acting on some demon lol. I’m catholic never bothered to read the Bible though
@@lulu_TheWitchBoy I mean, from a Christian perspective? They have their own internal logic for how they read Jewish scripture based on fitting it into a universal faith-based religion mold.
That said that internal logic is the basis for Christianity and is really makes no sense as a way to read an ethnohistory of a mostly orthopraxical ethnoreligion. So Christianity kinda doesn't make sense imo lol
I'm not religious but Jesus arm wrestling with the Devil is hilarious
Yeah
I bet five bucks on Jesus
I bet 10 on Lucy
Jesus is ripped bro, the devil doesnt even lift
It’s also completely overused in Instagram
The Bible sounds like a manga tbh
Soooooooo true
If only it was fun to read.
Jacob once fought a fucking angel for a whole day just because he wanted the angel to give in a blessing. The angel fucking gave up and gave him his blessing just so Jacob would leave him alone. There are real statues of this over the world.
Its a manga with a toxic fanbase
I'm Catholic and I've read the Bible and even with all it gives it doesn't give some good info on who Satan and Lucifer are or even what side they are on. I did feel though that Satan and Lucifer are actually two different beings but have their own roles in regards to their relationship with humanity. Just another way to look at it. I will still follow God but I think the main point overall is that the devil can be anyone or anything that tries tempt us to sin. Sorry if I'm preaching.
I feel like Satanael and Yaldaboath in P5 prob confuses Persona fans about Satan and Lucifer in the series even more.
They are based of the Gnostic interpretations of the Old Testament God and Lucifer.
Also satanael was his true name given by God, when he was still the foremost angel
Remember That Day
satan save christmas
I mean read each bio and you'll see satan and satanel are the same persona satan is after he was casted out of heaven and satanel is before.
Isn't Yaldabaoth just a really powerful thing that took form from the desires of the people of Tokyo? I think Satanael is the only one worth discussing here
When I first saw Satan in the fusion menu in P5, I started laughing maniacally. It was just funny how, as a Christian, I could use the Devil as a weapon for good.
Felt the same way lmao
Actually in the SMT series the duality of good/evil is not relevant, It's rather a Law/chaos adversity. For example in SMT 3, the angels were ruthless and were more inclined to chaos where the strong dominates the weak.
@@juandom6432I realize that now, but when I made that comment, I was still fairly new to the SMT franchise, however I was mostly talking about Satan in relevancy to my Christianity. It had very little to do with Good vs. Evil.
I mean Fake Igor gave total satan vibes. I thought it cheeky when I noticed in my first plathrough. I plan on defeating him with the Satan persona in royal
You also have to shoot god in the face
TLDR: Nyarly is actually Satan and he's here to tempt us to play Shin Megami Tensei to test us. Nice try Nyarly, but I saw through your wicked plans! 👺
NoahToh thanks I almost fell for his trap
Uh so I fell for the trap...
Help
@Most Deadest Pool of em All. I can't rialy see how your idea of a celebration culd possibly backfeir in any way what so ever.
Damn, I'm already many hours into Devil Survivor and loving it
I'm already a couple years into falling down this trap. It's dark down here.
Help.
When you listen to the story of Satan and Lucifer in this way, it kinda sounds like a soap opera drama rather than a book that has caused wars.
Many myths and religous stories are more comedy than anything else really. Lucifer is in the stories more of a teenager with daddy issues than the lord of darkness
@@kamishin7135 depends on how you look at most of them. they can either be very interesting or ironically hilarious.
My guy, people have literally tried to kill each other over Voltron and Steven Universe. Razors embedded in cookies and cyberbullying a teenager into suicide. Soap Operas could start wars.
@@AiluridaeAureus Not to mention people literally bullying/harassing each other over which Star Wars trilogy is the best/worst one.
Honestly, I've been into western occultism for years and it never ceases to surprise me how a Japanese game company seem to have a better grasp of western esotericism than almost any living occult fiction writers here in the west.SMT nocturne is amazing, even the way they present creation of destruction. its honestly really impressive. even the grindy at times gameplay is kinda thematic at times. idk if on purpose or not but it doesn't really matter. its just good shit.
I guess maybe it helps to have Buddhism and Shinto as the main religions, they have a better grasp of weird metaphysical stuff culturally and they don't have all that cultural baggage around Christian theology.
Wait... what...?
But Bhuddism and Shinto aren't... main? Christianity and Islam are the two main Religions in the world today and they are both very important pieces of history, regardless of how you feel about them or their community surrounding them of course
@@GameStrikerX2 in Japan.
Well buddhism and shinto also used too but it always taken anime based on feudal japan like dororo (Sorry i had bad English )
@@GameStrikerX2 .... I know it's worded weirdly but it's pretty clear they're saying the main religions they creators have experience with, not main worldwide religions. They're contrasting people who have Christianity as their main religions.
Put Helel into the mix and this gets even more confusing
From what I can tell, Helel is Lucifer before his fall, Lucifer is after his fall, and Satan is the old testament depiction of him. The first two are the same, but Satan is something else entirely. This might explain why all of them have different Arcanas in several games. Although I might be wrong about all of this.
Helel is just Lucifer in his Seraph form before the fall.
Likewise Nocturne had two Helel forms of Fallen Demons Ose and Flauros.
Helel us Hebrew for Lucife
@@neonayse8803 Was just about to say this, Lucifer=Helel just a different word
@@brandoncherry6264 oh something like the father the son and the holy spirit? Good Way to think about it
Lucifer: How did you know it was me?!
Protag: Maybe don't be a blonde blue eyed character in Japan.
Lucifer in SMTIV took this tip to consideration
@@weebsaintnotondrugs7484 It's not much better.
@@professionalfangster1510 I never claimed it to be
@@weebsaintnotondrugs7484 Yeah but his next tip is to not be named after something relating to light or a painfully obvious pseudonym.
Hikaru not a blonde the one only
“I hope I cleared up some confusion”
Makes me question my whole life
oof
In some Portuguese translation, Satan is not mentioned at all
They just call him "Adversário" (adversary) or "Inimigo" (Enemy)
Woah, a chance to actually use my philosophy of religion degree!
Okay, so, you said a lot of great things, but there is another interpretation of the differences between the Satan of the Old Testament and the Satan of the New Testament. Many secular and religious scholars believe that (since Satan merely means "Adversary" or "Accuser") Satan is merely a title given to two beings, the Satan of Job and the Lucifer of Genesis and the New Testament, roughly equating to the depiction of Satan and Lucifer in SMT (although, like you said, Lucifer also draws inspiration from Enlightenment-era Lucifer romanticization).
Interesting, I suppose there's no reason why there couldn't be more than one adversary and if Jesus would've been tempted as a human then he also would've become "Satan".
Lucifer only having a single mention in the book by name makes that extremely shaky imo
It is fun to ponder, but regardless of the source of our temptations, scripture is clear that we as individuals are held accountable for our sin. If there is a God, I doubt I'll be able to say "you should have been more clear on whether Satan and Lucifer are the same person."
No pointing out that Judaism and Christianity just don't have a consistent interpretation of Satan so this video was actually about contrasting different christian readings.
What a disappointment.
I mean when learning about the bible, you never look it as A Book, but instead A Series of Books, written by different authors, spanning different eras and generations, intended for different audiences of different groups, that's why you first start reading it, you think your seeing contradictions when in reality it's just different author's point of views, I have a Bible that has the Author, the Date it was written in, and it's original intended audience written along with the Book it is referring to.
And then they mixed him with Mastema (yeah, from Strange Journey, but actually an angel in Jubilees) and Baal (some other god that was popular in Canaan).
Baal was known as a false god in the Christianity
@@neonayse8803 baal is badass enough to have been worshipped in the same temple as yhvh at one point
There are canaanite myths that have El as the original chief god then ba-el(baal) then taking over only for another god yahweh finally defeating baal to become chief god
@@delgande why don't we have a fighting game with gods kicking each others asses for the title of "The big HoLy"
@@fuckitweballin759 Because we already have that game is called "Fight of Gods" lol.
@@fuckitweballin759 smite
Great research man! THIS is why I fell in love with jRPGs that takes ancient text, religion, mythologies and incorporates them into their stories and characters.
UA-cam: i see you're looking at Persona 3 social link guides, here you go
Me: oh cool
By the way, the reference of Satan in Job is actually "the Satan", meaning the person who is adversarial. Satan isn't the name of the person, more like a description.
Its a job title
Not only was this a fantastic description of Satan and Lucifer in Megami Tensei, but it was also a great lesson in theology. Thanks for all your content man!
Love both their designs. Both really capture the terrifying menace and the dark grandeur of what Satan and Lucifer represent. Also they just flat out look rad as hell.
I recently found a book written in old German latters and in German, there Satan and Lucifer are two distinct personalities. Satan was the Right Hand of Lucifer. Also in demon classicifations, Satan is the embodiment of wrath and Lucifer of Pride, thus both must coexist, since pride does not dissolve just because there is hatered (the idea that it they are still the same does not convince me anymore). I also once read About (but I do not remember there), that Satan was only the keeper of hell, who Held Lucifer emprisioned in hell, and still works FOR God, also by punishing sinners, and throw them to hell, while Lucifer is the Devil, who rebelled against God and was cast into hell thereof, but "corrupts" God's creations (so he is the "light brigner", the one who wants everyone to release its full potential). This is also partly how both are depict in SMT 4: Satan still the arbiter of God, but Lucifer the rebel, who wants to spread the seed of Knowledge over all mankind
Lucifer is cooler, when he disguise himself as a random blonde man/woman/kid/old man...if you see a blonde person he has a high chance of being Lucifer.
Literally all the velvet room assistants
@@lucasmakesvids7217 But Elizabeth and Theodore are white-haired?
@@lolikumadesbear1999 shhhhhh not everyone will notice and people like mysteries
@@lucasmakesvids7217 Ok, I see. Sounds reasonable👌
@Sylvie is not legal lol I forgot about Ryo
"Lucifer" actually means "lightbringer". Morning star is the title given to Venus, the planet, that can be seen in the sky with the naked eye and looks like a super bright star and is the last light that can be seen in the sky at the early morning. When the bible was translated from old hebrew to latin they translated the term used for Venus as "lucifer". For some weird ass reason when translating from latin people just assumed lucifer was a name and that the passage on Isaiah was referring to a fallen angel instead of the King of Babylon.
i got a morning star veggie burger ad on this vid
Got check AFI's song Morning Star
I got a Mcdonald's ad
join the chaos
“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him“ -Revelation 12:7-9
So satan and the devil are the same?
@@FastestBanneker_student yes. Also the word lucifer isn't the name of the devil before the fall. The word is latin and most likely has been added to the vulgate which in turn has passed over into english translations of the bible. Beezlebub (lord of flies), Satan and the devil are all the same individual. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the bible.
Pick up the bible and read it if you want to know the truth.
That was the perfect verse Jaxon.
Wait Satan is also a dragon?
@@rawrdino7046 As I was reading this, the thought came to mind; The dmDragon may have been Lucifer, and Satan (Adversary) may have reffered to the angels that followed the rebellion against God.
Beelzebub is a translational corruption of baal, the lord of those that fly, the meaning of which got twisted into "lord of the flies" a gaff iconic enough to become the title of a book.
The concept of Satan in theology is mostly a placeholder for the things you describe, temptation, cruelty, judgment and the like, but Lucifer holds an interesting place in the gestalt of human consciousness. A sort of meta-rebel, if you will.
Baal Zebul was the Lord of High Places. Yahweh and his minions diabolized him into Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies.
Do you know that kid that makes UA-cam videos complaining after getting banned by the admin on a Minecraft server.
That's pretty much it.
Agreed.
Too accurate
remember that man that made The OldEst AnARChy SerVer In MinEcraft.That''s the chaos hero.
😂😂😂😂
In my first playthrough of my first Persona game, which was P4G, I was around lv. 24 when a fusion accident gave me Satan. Needless to say, it was awesome getting it but I didn't use it because I wanted to get through the game normally
Did you ever use it when you could normally fuse Satan?
@@davidlarkin1040 Yeah I held off on using it until much later in the game. I really didn't want to take advantage of a massive fluke like that my first time playing
@@danwithaplan3742 oof. Ah well, there are other great Persona's as well. What was your end team?
@@davidlarkin1040 I honestly can't remember It's been so long. P4G is also one of my most replayed games so I wouldn't have a chance at remembering
@@danwithaplan3742 so replayable because it's so awesome. (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
I find it a little disappointing that SMT has yet to have Satan and Lucifer interact, hell maybe as allies or enemies depending on which interpretation you want. Also what bums me out is that SMT has yet to address the Watcher Angels.
smt 2
« This series is disappointing because I’m not putting any effort into actually playing their games »
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 yeah because I have the disposable income and time to play every smt game. Maybe Atlus work to get all there stuff on a easily accessible platform and i wouldn't be having these problems.
@@mediocreglow8091 you know a legit way to get that game? Can't use emulation.
@@kap1618 This isn’t a problem unique to smt or atlus, old games in general are hard to come by. There’s an easy answer to that : piracy.
The “satan” of the old testament is likely a mistranslation of “shaytan” which means something like ‘adversary’ or ‘judge’. In the Old Testament it’s basically a role that someone takes to refute the idea of being a saint. Like the idea of the devils advocate
To give you an idea of the disparity between revelations and the Old Testament, Jesus, or rather John who claims he had a vision of Jesus, calls himself the morning star, this is because in Roman/Greek culture, "Morning Star" is seen as a symbol of beauty, unlike Hebrew culture which sees it as a sign of arrogance
Well, in some religions they are also thought to be different beings. It's very complicated situation since I do agree there has to be some form of mistranslation when it comes to the bible. I would also say another issue would be interpretation.
You gotta remember outside of the bible. SMT has also taken influence from famous works such as
Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno that also give their own take on the character(s). Mix that with a Japanese perspective of western religion and other things.
And since there is also plenty of abrahamic religions out there too many to name. I would imagine Atlus, just made Satan and Lucifer different characters to make more demons and to probably please more people.
It's really hard to say.
@lorenzo Alessandrini Pretty much. SMT has a lot of themes and ideas it wants you to sit on and think about and look into. I highly respect that about SMT and Atlus.
@lorenzo Alessandrini In Islam there's also 2 type of demon, the syaitan and the iblis and I am to this day is confused to the difference between them.
Aimi stop procrastinating. Incorrect, Iblis was a jinn who later became the shaitan we all know and hate. Mistranslations may have led to the confusions between the abrahamic religions. King Solomon ( an Islamic prophet as well) used to be able to communicate with all life forms, including jinns, and had mastery over them unlike any other and could control them. This is where the 'demon' occultic idea may have came from. Satan is also technically a jinn, so maybe that's where the idea of 'demon' came from. But jinns are just like humans, capable, of good and evil. They're just more ancient and can't be seen by humans, they usually populate oceans, forests etc because they also overpopulate us as well. That's why those areas are usually associated with misfortune and eeriness. So our ancestors weren't idiots, there was a reason to the supposed madness
Edit: correction they don't populate oceans and trees, that's a human misconception. They live underground
lorenzo Alessandrini of course, hysteria was an actual threat in those days due to how short and cruel life was. We should count our blessings
In Jewish texts, all Satan really is just an agent of God who's job is just tempt humanity thats it. He's definitely not the same being as Lucifer. He's not even a demon. He's just an angel.
When Satan turns against god in the Law ending of Shin Megami Tensei 2 he specifically says that god committed "genocide". Given that Satan was being purely objective in his purpose, a notion strengthened by the fact that after serving his purpose he turns into a pillar of dirt, I'm willing to bet that he meant genocide literally.
If that is the case he is likely talking not about the fact that God killed all the humans who didn't obey him, as there are still humans on the ark. But rather that he killed all of the demons who were never given the option to side with him, or even the mutants living in the Underworld.
In some interpretations, it was Lilith who was the one that tempered eve to eat the apple to get back at Adam and God.
Lilith is a story thag got cut at nicea, about a human being created before Eve, that rebelled against god on her own, but I do t think any mention of hwr remains in the canonized bible.
I’ve been waiting for a channel that highlights SMT demons for a while now, please keep this series up!
Samael is the serpent in the garden. His name means "poison of god"
My favorite Lucifer design is the six-winged angel. A subtle detail in that the angelic choir of Seraphim are depicted as seven-winged angels, but Lucifer in some mythologies had one of his wings ripped off (either by the archangel Michael or the archangel Uriel depending) during his rebellion. I thought it was a clever allusion to the complex mythology around him in later sources especially Gnostic ones. Other nice subtle touches include the lack of a belly button (he wasn't born of woman, he was created from red clay), and the burial shroud around him in the Dx2 version. I absolutely love the depiction in SMT Digital Devil Downloader Liberation x2 AKA SMT Liberation Dx2 the mobile game, where it's a blend of his SMT and Persona depictions, including his signature unique skill Morning Star.
I love the way SMT 2 did them, with them each being 2 separate entities.
0:00 welcome to the cathedral of shadows
Forgot to include devil survivor. Lucifer is the super boss and it's mentioned that he has involvement in the events of the game
I want to ask, what about Jesus in the SMT universe ?
I don't think that he would be happy with how YHVH is acting, especially in SMT 2 and IV Apocalypse
That's why he goes to punch his father's face
I think it's fair to say that the story in SMT is more inspired by Judaism than Christianity, which is why Jesus has never appeared in any of the games (unless you count Agony or the Persona 3 protagonist).
*SPOILERS*
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I can't say anything about SMTII, but, in Apocalypse, YHVH became an enemy of the Great Will. One theory I had was that it could be that YHVH and the Great Will are avatars for the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the protagonist is the avatar of Jesus, who was sent by the Great Will to stop him, but that's just my theory.
@@Nyarly Yeh most of the MC's in Megaten are reincarnations of n0otable figures like Adam, Jesus, Izanagi, Izanami, Abel, etc.
Centurionzo 12 Jesus would 100% support YHVH’s actions. Read the Book of Revelation, Jesus has absolutely no problem with murdering anyone who goes against his will. Revelation 19:19-21 “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”
By the way, there is a Jesus analogue in SMT. The Law Hero in SMT I becomes the Messiah (in the Christian sense, not as in IV Apocalypse) after death and in SMT II you are an artificial version of the Messiah.
Nyarly It’s based on Kaabalah, in Jewish mysticism God is somewhat of a panetheistic deity as the universe is only a part of him. In his infinite form Ein Sof he cannot manifest inside of a finite universe, so he emanates himself through Sefirot (the Tree of Life). When all of the Sefirot come together they form Adam Kadom, this is the highest form of God that manifests itself in our universe, he is YHVH. The Great Will is the Ein Sof, this why he can be described as a separate being from YHVH (like in MT II and IV Apocalypse), and at the same time be equivalent with YHVH (Nocturne and Devil Summoner).
OMG I was at the SMT cosplay gathering at AX as FeMC!!! I just now discovered your UA-cam channel!! What a small world :D damn that was almost over a year ago...
from my understanding, jewish has no differentiation between good and evil. Everything happens because God's will, either bad or good. That's why Satan is not even evil. Perhaps, the new testament is influenced by the greek philosopher or zoroastrianism. So, the good and evil concept even exists in new testament
Neither god nor the angels are good or evil after all its humans who posess the knowledge of good and evil in the first place
0:51 And then you saw Baal Zebul and just stopped asking questions
Baal is sun worship
I believe that old gods just go by different names and are likely demons. Think how many times they recycled Ishtar/Inanna/Astarte/Aphrodite/Venus. The Greeks and Egyptians also had plenty of overlap. Allah is likely the newest iteration of Baal honestly.
@@yougottowinsometime7470 Quetzalcoatl: Am I a joke to you?
@@gottesurteil3201 Allah is the same Abrahamic god of Judaism and Christianity. Allah literally just means "the creator"; they are the same figure as YHWH and Jehovah, just in a different language
And furthermore the reason Islam came about was a rejection of the "old gods" of the middle east (of which Ba'al is one), primarily rejecting the practice of idolatry
And then Sataneal comes by to join the party.
Satan's skill God's breath from dds2 is absolutely ultimate 100% kill hit rate for everybody of your party and no save when it use!
That plus full HP recovery and charm was too nasty.
generally, pretty good video, especially for people not familiar with the subject in general. But there's a few things I want to say.
8:16 actually is just Gideon making stuff up. I'm pretty sure the original script just had him rebel in the end because YHVH was incompatible with a true law world. I'll edit the source here if I find it.
He still wanted to use the meggido arc because it's a necessary means to establishing a law world.
wanting to overthrow God to establish anarcho-monarchism is an ideology though. And it kinda goes with all of the "wrld of str" stuff when you consider that the Beast/powerful worldly rulers and Satan are the strong shaping a totalitarian world that goes in their benefit.
it's important to consider second temple Judaism when looking at satan's development. Although the apocalyptic literature from that time isn't canon, its texts like the book of Enoch clearly establish Satan and demons as full on enemies of God. So by the 1st century AD the idea certainly wasn't something out of left field.
Secondly, as you said, satan is just hebrew for 'opposer', so there wouldn't be a contradiction in the old testament Ha-Satan and new testament fallen Satan coexisting as separate beings.
Then if we take the catholic christian canon as true, revelation is true, which implies that satan fell before the fall of man because of him wanting to overtake heaven/the world (revelation 12:9).
Third point is, the synoptic gospels and John clearly present Satan as an outright enemy and not a ha-satan. For example Matthew 12:22-28 implies Satan is on the same side as the demons and pagan gods (taking into conideration that beelzebub is just a mock name of baal national deities in general), and John is very explicit about Satan being the evil ruler of the world (John 8:39-47 and 14:28-31)
Ok, while Christianity in general started off as a splinter group of Judaism (a lot of the theology is from the Essenes even while a lot of Christian culture is based on the Romans), so there is a certain amount of things in Christianity that came from minority views in Jewish thought that subsequently were rejected.
That it theoretically could've originally came from a Jewish group isn't the same as it being a the Jewish position on Satan.
While it's certainly possible the original authors of the gospels were within this aforementioned possible group of Jews that thought this way, and it remained the dominant view because christianity became a less Hebrew speaking group so the issues weren't obvious between his description as God's tester and fallen angel and demon even after it was never more than a minority view in Judaism and even that minority has long abandoned it.
This isn't necessarily the case because we don't have anywhere close to the original NT manuscripts in their original form, the synoptics heavily use Satan as a tester (using the specific word) but then also share an incident where he's opposed to God. Even Matthew (who were know was a Jew writing for a Jewish audience) has it, it makes little sense to use a minority Jewish view as a significant part of your argument to Jews, so there's a firm possibility that was a later translation/error.
John 8:39-47 doesn't reference Satan by name in the KJV (or DR, or the Latin Vulgate for that matter), he's referenced in the last supper which still fills a role of tester, similar to Job.
Revelations on the other hand, is littered with references to Satan being pure evil, coincidentally it probably doesn't have Jewish authorship and the version of the Tanakh it's referencing is probably a Greek translation.
Oh and Enoch doesn't refer to Satan as a fallen angel, it refers to azazel which later christian thought equated with Satan.
Point is, there'd have to be more evidence to assert that the Jews in early christianity saw Satan this way. But either way, it certainly doesn't make a strong case for a Jewish view, it's possible it was a minority Jewish view at the time which ultimately died in favor of maintaining the view presented in the Tanakh, but that doesn't substantiate equating the Jewish and Christian images of Satan, the Christian view of Satan really doesn't fit with the Tanakh, at all.
1:50 That's not a pastor, that's Palpatine.
You described it so well. When I played SMT 2 in 1994, I was completely baffled by why Satan and Lucifer were two different characters. With there being little resources for me to check back then,I concluded that, well, Lucifer is the name of the chief fallen angel while Satan is a title. The title could be assigned to any angel of YHWH's choosing.
Are you japanese? I think that was the only way to play the games in the 90s
@@Fermin-hw5pd I'm not but I'm in Asia. It was relatively easier to get hold of the cartridge.
Indonesian Protestant here. I never thought of them as same entity.
satan is "adversary", that's why even mastema was regarded as satan on some ocassions.
"Because of a poor translation of the Hebrew Bible into English it's not entirely clear what Satan's role in Judeo-Christianity is"
That's because there's no such thing as Judeo-Christianity.
The New Testament isn't at all part of Judaism and while the Old Testament uses the Tanakh as it's textual source, it didn't go through the recursive translations (cause there was always a Hebrew speaking Jewish community) and the New Testament has nothing to do with Judaism. Furthermore Judaism isn't just a religion of the past that became static when Christianity appeared, it continued to evolve along it's own lines, just like Christianity did.
So what you refer to as the "old testament" view of Satan is pretty much just the traditional Jewish understanding. The reason that the Christian view of Satan is so confusing is that it's trying to make sense of mashing two completely different traditions together, with completely different views of God, different values, and different philosophical and cultural objectives.
So ya, just label this as about Christianity, you brought in elements from Judaism because Christianity uses them, but none of the conclusions have anything to do with Judaism and treating the traditions as having similar views on pretty much anything just leaves people more confused about Judaism.
Well, except Lucifer, that's actually the traditional Jewish understanding, that it was a reference to the King of Babylon.
Yeah I remember first learning that Morning Star was just a reference to Babylonian royalty and I felt ripped off. Turns out Lucy was just some shit Paradise Lost made the fuck up.
@@randomfox12245 yep, but Satan in Jewish tradition is an objectively more interesting character than Miltons Lucifer/Satan Mashup.
Milton's Paradise Lost is still great literature though.
edit: fixed wrong author, always reread your comments for stupid mistakes before posting!
@@AdumbroDeus Dante...didn't write Paradise Lost. But this comment is old, and I'm sure it was a mistake
@@hahahahtrevor Oops, ya paradise loss was Milton, I guess for some reason I conflated it with the divine comedy in my head when I wrote the comment. Cause I was definitely talking about the image of Satan Milton used in paradise lost (though the idea of course was far older).
Just a reminder to always double check what you write for silly mistakes, thanks >_>
@@AdumbroDeus Haha no problem! Also, I've been going through this comment section and reading a lot of your comments, and I just wanted to say that you're definitely right. Satan is a label more than a name or even a title and can (and most likely does) refer to multiple entities. It's worth noting that Satan as a label doesn't even mean that the entity is adversarial to God, as I'm like 99% sure the Satan of Job is labeled Satan because he's Job's adversary, not God's. Lucifer obviously refers to the King of Babylon, most like Nebuchadnezzar II, not any kind of fallen angel or demon, and any through line between the two (if there is any) came from the New Testament, a completely separate work in its own right and even a completely separate work between its own books. The most we get is Revelation, which itself is a thinly-veiled long-form metaphor for the tyranny of Emperor Nero (hence the Number of the Beast), and shouldn't be taken as a portent of the future, like a lot of Christian groups like to believe today. You're right that the video is from a Judeo-Christian (read fully Christian) standpoint, because traditional Judaism and Christianity are entirely separate, much like Islam and Judaism, with Christianity simply piggy-backing off Judaism as a successor school of thought (because everything needs legitimacy).
Sorry this comment is so damn long lol. All this is coming from a man who has studied pretty much every aspect of my religion I could get my hands on. People just don't understand that it's ok to have inconsistencies when it comes to human thought. Nothing's perfect, demons matter just as much as angels, there are incorrect translations, yada yada
It's pretty simple when you get down to it.
Lucifer = Christian Devil (called Satan in the New Testament, implied being the Serpent in the Old Testament)
Satan = Judaic angel (called ha-satan in the Old Testament)
They are two different beings in the Biblical texts, whenever ha-satan is mentioned its used as a title and is explicitly a part of the Divine Council. In later Apocryphal works this charecter is named Mastema. Satan in the New Testament is used as a name (as is Beelzebub, but later occult texts and Paradise Lost popularized the idea of Beelzebub being Satan's right hand man. Lucifer was not originally a name for the Devil, but has been for nearly two millenniums now, so Megaten decided to go with this to differentiate the character from ha-satan and Beelzebub) and is explicitly in rebellion against God. In the intertestamental period there was a development of a charecter who opposed Yahweh, characters such as Azazel, Samyaza and the other Grigori, this culminated into the Satan we know in the New Testament. The reason these two share the same name is because they are both "adversaries", though one (ha-satan) is an accuser towards mankind, the other is the Adversary of God (which interestingly translates into Hebrew as Satanael).
And Satanael is Joker's Awakened Persona. So does that mean Joker is God's adversary?
@@LelouchOnTwi yaldabaoth is a God. So yes, Joker is the adversary of a God haha
@@penelopeglamour845 That's pretty bad ass
@@penelopeglamour845 To be more specific, in gnosticism, Yaldabaoth is the God of the material world, but not the creator and usurps the role of the creator, thus is seen as a false god. Satanael is his angel that realizes the truth and rebels against him.
SMT has a TON of references to gnosticism, and the ending of P5 is flat out ripped from it.
P5 (and the other games too I guess) is gnostic, their god is bot a true benevolent god, but a selfish being that created a universe to lord over, but still subordinate to some higher state of reality, commonly refferd to in thology as a demiurge. This one they named yaeldabaoth.
In gnosticism, satanael is the name given to the righteous rebel against the false god of the demiurge.
I was actually reading on this topic a couple of weeks ago and got really confused about Satan´s role in the old testament and the shift in Revelations. I suppose you could attribute that like you said to the translation of the bible, seeing as "Satan" is the title given to an agressor and all.
It's not exactly surprising that a different religion gives an entirely different role to an existing entity, more in line with it's values.
When I first saw satan in persona, my catholic mind NOOOO I WILL NOT LET THE DEVIL CONTROL MEEEEEE!!!!!!
Wouldn't you be controlling it? 👀
@@tomotomato fair point
Visionary Items do go into it more when Satan is frozen in carbonite during II.
Majin Tensei and Megami Tensei II also make a point he serves God even if they don't do much with it, contrasting Lucifer clearly being Devilman Satan but with clothes. Plus that plot twist on Majin Tensei where he's the Heroines father and made her to help the hero.
Basically think Lucifer of Devilman but with Crybabys interpretation in games like 4
Actually, Satan’s design in SMT reminds me of his depiction in Dante’s Inferno.
I believe in the old Testament it's just that the translation screws some things up. Satan was already fallen,but that didn't mean he couldn't speak to god. God is omnipotent after all, see he can argubly hear everything. He actually wasn't in heaven in job
And lucifer is mentioned in genesis.
The concept of Satan being fallen just, isn't a thing in Judaism. So, no any implications of that in the old testament are a product of poor translation of the Tanakh.
To be fair I get the feeling the devil would probably want his true intentions and identity skewed and clouded
But I don't think he wrote the bible, like shouldn't someone prevent this from happening? The bible or torah is a pretty big deal for Yahweh
@@kamishin7135 It's just the product of two different religions being conflated. Satan is a divine prosecutor in Judaism, and a rebellious angel that is also Lucifer in Christianity.
The Torah isn't inconsistent on this, the Bible is because it insists on using Judaism's texts.
Also, the Tanakh is more of an ethnohistory than 100% literal history all the time, that's a christian fundamentalist idea.
@@AdumbroDeus yes I know but I said this to somebody who is a literalist. I just wanted to show, that if the devil and god really existed, Lucifer wouldn't be able to confuse humans, if it was all literal
@@kamishin7135 i don't really think they're a literalist based on the comment.
Hey Nyarly, make a long episode about YHVH, please.
This has taught me more about how to interpret satan than church has taught me period.
"Satan do bad. Satan Evil"
Or
" necessary evils, seperate identities, trial or malice."
This is why the video is so frustrating to me.
That's not the takeaway you should get.
Satan as a bad guy and fallen Angel, combined with Lucifer is the Christian interpretation of Satan.
Satan as a tempter and Divine Prosecutor is a Jewish interpretation of Satan.
That one is "wrong" instead of the product of different traditions is what you conflate those traditions instead of taking them individually. Judeo-Christian is not a thing.
Your podding now on this eisode ! Great breakdown.
7:55. *Let me explain*
Nice to meet a fellow SMT fan raised in rural Georgia
Absolutely surprised that he's from GA. I'd like to meet him
Quite sure Satan was the final story boss of SMT Imagine btw, so I'm not sure exactly what his role was in this, but it probably was very important.
To me it seems like todays common interpretation of satan/the devil/lucifer comes from paradise lost
Bruh km so glad my guy not scared to touch this topic
i will never forget the quote that YHVH tolds to satan in SMTIVA "you are not longer under my protection satan"
The Satan in the Old Testament is actually Satanael, Joker's second persona.
6:07 thats the cover of the Impellitteri album Answer To The Master. Lol
I was wondering if you'd do Trumpeter as the next Demon in the Demons of SMT series
Toot
Wait you are from Georgia as well? Holy shit XD
satanael and helel make things even more complicated
This might be a SMT video but you absolutely killed it with the message. All this is in the game for a reason, it's not inspired. Movie, video games, art of all forms come from spirits and the spirit realm. Lucifer is the Light Bearer, Satan is the God of death and destruction as well as the world. They can't possibly be the same. So thanks for separating them for others.
Thank you for making this video, I've been arguing the difference of these characters for years. The one thing I want to point out is the only thing consistent about the Bible is that it's inconsistent.
I mean, you're mashing together two entirely different religious traditions with entirely different value systems. Of course there's gonna be inconsistency!
Which is why I found it so frustrated he insisted on using "Judeo-Christianity". Satan's role in Judaism is of a tester, it's christianity that has to figure out how to marry competing roles of tester for God and adversary of God.
nice to see you made a video about Teddie
context: ua-cam.com/video/FJoQDqn0WRw/v-deo.html
I hope they'll bring Satanael as a pre-fallen tempter version of Satan into the main Shin Megam Tensi serious instead of locking him as Jokers persona.
"As someone born into an all-white, Southern Baptist family in Georgia."
Same, except I'm mixed. This video nailed the accuracy with the confusion over Satan, Lucifer and the Devil.
Also just some trivia. Satan in Apocalypse is the highest leveled Demon in the series, at level 120, you can only fuse him on New Game Plus. And yeah Megido Arc is definately the strongest attack move in Megaten.
before the highest level demon was I believe Asura-o in the first Megaten game at level 110, but you couldn't fuse him in that game, he did join as a ally tho on the Chaos path.
his MT II version is level 135
Megido arc has higher base power then herewoods❤rebellion blade
I've always considered Satan and Lucifer from the non-IV games as being fairly consistent. Satan is an angel responsible for testing the faith of followers and as a judge of the wicked. Lucifer is a fallen angel who desires chaos and the dethroning of YHVH, eager to liberate demons and unleash the potential of humans by releasing them from God's chains. Then in IV/Apocalypse, they both get new roles along with new designs and I just see them as completely different entities. My memory of IV is a little hazy, but Lucifer just seemed to seek the world of the strong and harbored a hatred for YHVH. Satan's new character is super apparent as he orchestrated the war between law and chaos for so long, and is made up of Lucifer and Merkabah. Hell, in SMT II Satan and Lucifer were enemies on opposite sides while they're part of the same being in Apocalypse.
Apocalypse is... weird. They tried to do something new, but I think they kinda messed up everything they had established before. I realy hate Apocalypse's story.
@@deathzexion I do feel the whole conflict in IV/Apocalypse wasn't as much orchestrated by Satan as it was Orchestrated by YHVH which is why Lucifer feels to be more nefarious than Merkabah (so that Law side is portrayed more favorably than Chaos)
Oh shit, you're from southern Georgia too? Same here bro. I know that feel
Great video! I would like to give the eastern orthodox perspective on this subject if that's OK.
So to us satan and devil are like titles. A devil/demon is a satan and a satan is a devil. In Greek the word for devil is διάβολος (daivolos), meaning the one who deceives and accuses. Satan in Hebrew means the adversery or the enemy, we see that both titles fit every demon. Now the Satan and the Devil are all the same demon Lucifer since he was the greatest angel makes sense to be the greatest demon/devil /Satan.
Our Church Fathers do not take a dogmatic approach to whether Lucifer or another high ranking demon are the ones who appear in the different stories of the Bible but in every story they are bad and they try to deceive.
Now why is satan in God's divine council in Job.
In the orthodox faith heaven and hell are not physical places but rather states of being. We believe that God is like a consuming fire, so those who reject Him feel His love like hellfire and those who love Him as a gentle warmth. Since God is everywhere (πανταχού παρόν), every angel and demon are in His presence.
I hope you will find these interesting.
And again great video.
Great explenation, though you didn't mention that satan is also a title often associated with angels (example being Mastema possibly being the same satan as in book of Job). The reason why Lucifer is called THE Satan is because he is the ultimate adversary, as he opposes God himself, while other angels barring the title often just opose a human, like the satan in the Book of Job opposing Job.
i do love the look of satan in IV Apocalypse tho.
Next smt/persona game needs his smt 4 apocalypse design this look is bad ass as , pardon the pun hell
Satan is one of the Lords of Hell. Before he rebeled along with Lucifer against God, he was called Satanael.
Every angel's name ends with -el suffix
Its Samael not Satanael
What about Metatron & Mastema?
@@hunterblane610 Matatron is one of the highest rankings, so maybe God made an exception for him.
The el suffix denotes the one who has it as being of the house of El, that is of the house of the Hebrew god. Both El and YHWH are seen as being names of this being, although one was indeed more popular.
Also Samael does not refer to Satanael but the Gnostic false god of creation. Which ironically is better equated with YHWH. He was a false god not because he didn't make things, he was responsible for all of physical creation, but because he falsely took the title of most high for himself while being ignorant of the fact there were many more beings higher up the divine totem pole than him. Whether he is seen as being merely a well intentioned fool or actively hostile is a matter up to debate.
Wait satan is not the devil...?!
I loved learning about the translation issues and devil vs lucifer vs satan in bible study, im Catholic and it was fascinating to learn about the Ethiopian bible
You also have to add Samael to the mix, the snake that tricked Adan and Eva.
I thought that was Crawley?!
In some interpretations, its Lilith that tempered Eve to eat the apple because she wanted revenge against Adam.
I've always felt that Lucifer/Satan in SMT was heavily inspired by his depiction in Paradise Lost where he acts as antagonist and a bit like a protagonist in a greek tragedy. A rebellious force of change to combat the stagnant order of God who ends up damning humanity and his comrade angels by paving the way to hell with his good intentions. Given the heavy vein of Jungian psychology in SMT and Persona, it could be reasonable to assume that Lucifer and Satan are a manifestion of the human desire to oppose the order of things. With Lucifer as that which opposes for the sake of others, and Satan as that which opposes for the sake of self.
I think that Jungian psychology works better with Persona:
In those games, they come from the consciousness of humans to defend their psyche. However, Jungian psychology has a clear distinction between "psyche" (all psychic processes) and "soul" (our personality). The soul is probably the reason why demons/personas show up, because someone's soul is being threatened in some sort of way (mostly seen in P4)
@@Yokiriri Totally agree.
Satan never been Lucifer. Don't know why people alway think they are the the same being.
"Lucifer is Pride" when he was an angel and "Satan is Wrath" after he fell
Its all because of that stupid isaiah translation
"lucifer" is a latin word
How in the world is that his original name when all other angels are named in hebrew
The old testament was originally in hebrew
Why suddenly include a single latin word?
Why the inconsistency there?
Why in a hebrew text would there be a latin word?
In the original hebrew the word "helel" is used and THAT got translated into lucifer in latin and then unchanged from latin in the KJV
Since "lucifer" stands out and sounds like a proper name and that the king of babylon's fall sounds like the fall of satan in revelations people thought its the same thing when its not
Lucifer does not exist biblically
However there are some old canaanite myths dealing with one god rebelling against the chief god that sounds like the tale of lucifer and that tradition might have incluenced the oral folklore until finally being formalized later on as the religion of the bible spread
But within the bible itself there is no lucifer
Probably because the average American Christian doesn't actually read the bible, just follow whatever the preacher says blindly. This I say as someone who actually tries to study theology and believes in god.
@@delgande this is what schizophrenia looks like in comment form
@@kabronex9877 XD America bad haha christianity bad *rapes child in arabic*
pretty amazing explanation, you might find interesting in what jehova witnesses has to offer, they make a sort of timeline that tries to explain why Satan was expelled from the heaven and what happened to human kind when he landed on earth. its pretty bonkers and leave you thinking on it. (apologizes for the terrible english, it is not my primary lenguage).
hope you find it interesting and maybe we receive more explanation/lore on the SMT series, have a good one!
The own system God put into place backfired on him
What’s the difference between Satan and Santanel
Satanael is Satan before getting banished from heaven
Lets add Satanael to the mix and we got ourselves one hell of a party!
Hahahaha good one
Oh, shoot. I guess the edgy story I wrote about Satan in high school was close to the original thing; portraying him as not evil, but a harsh judicator. Mislabeled because he punishes people, so they attribute him to pain and suffering.
I really enjoy these lore videos! Would love to see a video on Nix from P3 or Yaldabaoth from P5
All these comments and nobody mentions that these interpretations aren't pulled from what we currently understand as Christianity and Judaism. They're pulled from Gnosticism, which is an old world version of these religions. It's more similar to Greek Mytholigy in how its stories are told and function.
Beelzebub makes sense at least because he was seen as a deity by Caananites (as Baal) before Christians started teaching that he was an incarnation of the devil. It was commonplace for Chrisitans to preach old Pagan gods as actually being demons tricking humans into worshiping them. Astaroth and Ishtar is another example.
This is one of tve teasons I love Megaten. You come to look a bit nore info on one if your favorite Personas and you end uo getting a shirt class on theology