Even MORE Free Power For The Home Engine Builder
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Backfacing valves is a tried and true method of increasing low lift flow. Here's an explanation of why it works and how you can do yours at home with no special tools...just a hand drill and a file.
#engineblueprinting #cylinderheads #enginebuilding
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"Think of me as the free horsepower fairy" that should be on a shirt lol
This does need to be a shirt.
Im in Ca, wont wear a shirt that says fairy anywhere on it.
@@gordocarbo I live in Colorado, me too!
Uncle Tony. I asked that question in 1985. A retired Ford drivetrain engineer was teaching auto mechanics in the Air Force. I had already had years of training before that by my grandfather, who had been a master mechanic. The answer I got from the engineer, for the ridge on the back of the valve. Was to create turbulence. To help a cold engine atomise the fuel better.
You beat me to it, but mine was just a guess. Nice to hear it from someone who probably had access to the original engineers or the engineering publications.
That was going to be my guess, it looks like it'd create a tumble or a sort of vortex. That was the thinking off the top of my head
On F1 engines ( na v10 ) they used to have it even more pronounced - turbulence can help air go around the corner. But probably its true for higher lift (those engines had pneumatic valve springs so the lift ramus probably where verslo agresive)
I was the top cylinder head valve director for Chrysler from 1910 until 1998. The specific area of the valve you are referencing in this video was the direct culmination of many decades worth of atomization physics, combustion theory, and mathematical engineering. I spent my entire life perfecting what I named "The Intake Valve Ramp" to find the quintessential balance between power, drivabilty, mileage, and durability. It's purpose was to create a counterclockwise vortex that would, in turn, bring in a vacuum-induced pressure effect to amplify the sonoramic waves found in the atmospheric combustion during the mid-stroke. It took me literally years of frustrating trial and error testing to get it right. All of my blood, sweat, and tears went into the process. I spent countless nights rolling around, unable to sleep, obsessing about it. That little ridge cost me my wife, my family, and in the end, it cost me my sanity. And you just ground it off with a drill and a file.
And if you believe this story, I got some nice oceanfront property in Nashville for sale.....CHEAP.
From 1910 to 1998 lol
good one....lolololol.....it's the b/s fairy...lolol....how much 4 the property...?...lololol
I remember u, i was the lad that welded the ridge on .
That's the ticket...say hello to your wife Morgan Fairchild for us. Good to see you back Tommy.
The ridge could benefit the mixture for fuel efficiency by causing a disruption in flow. Bad for power, good for fuel economy. It's always a trade off like some guy named Tony said on youtube
Just a thought Tony but SLAG HAMMER would fit right in with SOUTH EAST GASSER ASSOC.and low and behold you live right there!
Rules rules rules. Strict rules to join SEGA, but worth it.
@@chriscatarcio2983 I didn't know no automatics..on the other hand Tony's been racing for decades he'd be competitive.but your right there is alot of money there.
@@chriscatarcio2983 agreed👍🏻
a power drill mounted in a vise is a lathe :)
I have been doing this since the 80s. On the exhaust I use a back cut that just blends the edge. Stock and super stock classes is where I find all the tricks of the trade. The single digit increases add up over time.
Tony, if you were to write a book on all the different ways of achieving free horsepower, I WOULD buy it!
Love your work 👍🇦🇺
He should write a book, there's plenty of dumb Fs that put out a bunch of crap, these are books that should be written so we don't lose this sacred knowledge in the future, to hell will all the other BS
I would've thought that little trough is there to help the air/fuel mixture bounce off the valve face to possibly give the fuel/air mixture a boost filling the cylinder head quench area.... As Dick Arons once said to me "a more complete filling of the cylinder head quench area." Or something to that effect...
Hey Tony,
Tim here, yes a back cut of 30° is GREAT on an intake valve.......LEAVE THE EXHAUST ALONE!!!.....when one starts thinkin of porting an exhaust port, one HAS to remember reversion, and remember the charge is going OUT instead of IN....no back cut or ridge removal shud happen....when u do, reversion starts, and now it makes crap power.......the flow bench will say it flows more air, but reversion is a demon that creeps up and BITES you.....my experience/knowledge, has shown me a nice 30°back cut on intake valves, net better low lift #'s....(.300 on down)......high lift dont care, as the valve is WAY away from the seat,.....but most of our motors that max at 6k rpm, will LOVE the 30° back cut.......again, DONT TOUCH the exhaust valve........that ridge STOPS reversion......NOT necessarily the cold valve issue, u suggested......nice stuff my brother.....LOVE the chanel for sure!!!
I was always under the assumption that that ridge on the valve was another factory heat sink
a manufacturing process video/film could bring more insight into it.
there are things in devices that are there just for manufacture that people then come up with other reasons for their existence, like core plugs.
You have too flow bench the heads, then and only then can you come up with your aspiration #, lol.
I'm just having fun with you guys.😉
Not sure anyone will even read this, but, it has been noted by some head porters that the ridge on the back of the exhaust valve helps prevent reversion. The intake valve is a different story of course in that it may hurt low lift and help at higher lift. Overall under the curve is helped.
I had a set of original 2.08 intake valves from the 1962-1964 factory Maximum Wedge big blocks that were called "tulip" valves-very long sloped fillet/neck from the stem to the seat face. It looked like they would have weighed a ton. I found an NOS set for sale on Ebay at the moment.
Been wondering about that same question for near 20 years. Just knew that a 30 degree back cut always helped.
That’s as good of an explanation or theory as I’ve ever heard ran up the flag pole. I’ll salute it.
Tony the ridge on the valve is to create turbulence to keep air away from the walls at very low lift. The object is to keep the air near the center flowing at 300 ft/sec at low lift . This is known as "Vena Contracta".
Keep up the good videos..............There's more to playing with cars than simply throwing shiny parts at it.
Thanks Uncle Tony, I'm in the process of building a 87 Dippy X police package 318, and am looking forward to using all your help and tips on hidden but real HP tricks. Thanks from Billy The Dodge ,way up here in frosty Chicago. I never miss your channel, a great way to learn.
I had one of thoz engines in my 70 dustervat one time.... i put in a mild cam, put factory roller lifters back in and ran it!! That thing likes spinning up to 7000rpm all the time.... still got the engine in the shop, with no holes in the block!
That LA roller cam engine is a really good engine!
Sounds like a good time.
My thoughts are that it is a wing shaped edge to break the laminar flow surface tension and induce a slight turbulence for mixing, dispersing and cleaning the cylinder chamber. As the air goes through quickly and draws any fuel still liquid, or condensed as you pointed out, will tend to "ski jump" this edge back into the air stream. Just my speculation though...
That's my thoughts.
exactly! you explained it better than I did!
it would be a great test for somebody with a flow bench and a dyno to see how much power the engine makes with then without that ridge! just getting rid of it is going to affect the flow numbers on the cylinder head and my guess is probably pretty drastically so I bet it's quite a bit more than two horsepower not only that but it'll pick up power throughout the entire power band and supporting mods will only make that number go up from there! this is a race car not a stoplight to stoplight car so low speed drivability isnt a concern it's going to live its life at wide open throttle!
Flow benches don’t help much for this issue because flow benches measure only the air, and in an unrealistic situation that the engine doesn’t really see.
The ridge is for the fuel droplets that can’t make the turn as quickly as air can, so the drops hit the ridge and break up before re-entering the flow.
files are amazing tools for many purposes.
I love your little tidbits of information.
I've learned alot from you.
And I'm busier than ever.
Thanks for being there for the common car guys
And your merchandise is deadly
Man I wish I could get up there before you do the valve & seat lapping and share what I learned in my experiences with you on those valve & seat faces.
I have built a lot of engines & heads on MBenzs, before everything went to computer controlled engine management systems, up into the early 90's. I've done them all, inline 4/5/6 and V-8s ( Yes MB made an inline 3 ltr. 5 cylnder diesel engine designated as a 300D regular Diesel, & TD TurboDiesel, look it up if you doubt it ), the carbureted and feul injected, diesel and gasoline burners. It would take a couple hours or more to post it all & explain the things I figured out by watching the older guys at the time and in my own years of tinkering around on them.
Typical Cyln Head R&R & reworking heads on all 3.5/3.8/4.5/5.0/5.6/6.3/6.9 liter displacement MB V-8s the book time was around 28 hours depending on what the overall condition of the heads were in that you couldn't guess until you had it all apart. Call your local MB Dealer and ask the Service Dept to verify if you want. Oh well Maybe I can get up there to share it all with you on the next build. Great Video & GODSPEED Uncle Tony.
As far as I know, the 300D is considered a very robust engine, to the point of qualifying it as legendary and sought after.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 You are %100 correct. They're not fast to take off but the feul milage is unmatched when timed properly. It only requires oil changes at 3,500mls city driving and up to 5,000 for hiway mls. and depending on where you live or drive may require 2 valve adjustments each year when the weather changes from cold to hot or vise versa. I have seen some with close to 1,000,000 miles on the odometer when the odometer lasts that long and they were still going strong.
BAHAHAHaha haha@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259
@@pauberrymon5892 Remember those cars new...so gutless its embarrassing
0-60 eventually
@@gordocarbo Yep if you were going downhill 😁
That drill in the vice has got to be the greatest thing I've ever seen. Nothing ever stops UT. If there's a will there's a way! Ingenuity at its finest!
I was always told that troft on the back face of the valve was there to help with low speed/velocity atomization on carbureted applications! supposedly it's supposed to make low speed unatomized fuel kind of bounce off the valve and spread out into the combustion chamber better instead of just pooling the cylinder in one spot! meaning rather than collecting in a puddle on top of the piston it's supposed to come off the valve and kind of bounce into the cylinder walls!
Sounds about right: as flow comes off the valve on opening, the low pressure/inreased turbulence area after the ridge helps put trace liquid back in suspension - but nothing major. Probably does absolutely nothing after say... 0.200 lift. Modern engines with their higher thermostats and egr systems likely see no benefit.
Again, as Tony said, we are dealing with carbureted engines rather than electronic fuel injected engines. The trough is not needed on the more modern engine where flow is sensored and monitored. On the Keith Black and Ed Pink engines the valves (racing valves mind you) did not have those troughs.
by the way I've always back faced my valves and got rid of that ridge because there's no way it can help performance just like the crossover in the cylinder heads and intake manifold always gets blocked off! stuff like that is there for production vehicles to help driveability and emissions and my thought is, if it helps driveability or reduces emissions then it also reduces power! except for PCV valves, definitely run a PCV valve! I used to run them into the exhaust or put in a catch can or puke tank but not anymore, just run a PCV valve!
@@jerryhatrick5860 no definitely get rid of it and back face the valves! this car ain't going to be a stoplight to stop light car! it's built for performance and going as fast as possible in the shortest amount of time!
@@bjr2379 exactly! back face your valves, don't run a cat, get rid of smog pumps, air conditioning, power steering, EGR valves and crossovers gone! any and all driver aids! hell get rid of your entire HVAC system who needs heat? cars most likely going to run like shit in the winter anyways so you won't be driving it!
I use a valve refacer tool for small engines that has a carbide cutter and the valve spins in a v block type vise jaws. Its made by Rotary , part num 750-257 and cost around 50 bucks. Then put in the drill press to clean it up with a right angle die grinder and a flap disc ,lastly with scotchbrite disc . I've had machine shop guys ask me who did the work on the valves because they look like Ferrea valves but there OEM
Tony, I always had access to a Sioux valve grinder and my Neway valve seat kit. It made seating and grinding very easy. The last part of the head job was to grind the trough off on the grinder with the finest grit wheel after the seating was done. Great to see the old ways working again!
Any time you introduce shear with a sharp edge into a moving column of air, you create turbulence, which is less efficient. I add a tiny radius to the face side if possible.
Which is why planes wings have a big bulge on the trailing edge.
I would have gone with the "heat sink" comment below, i.e. thicken the edge to keep an other wise thin edge from getting red hot, melting or dieseling .
You are the best on UA-cam we grew up trading parts.
Looks awesome!
That's some great advice right there! I really dig the "make the most of the parts you have" philosophy rather than just buying stuff and bolting it together.
Giving me motivation for maxxing out future builds, especially with the V6 I'm currently dealing with, since it reminds me of V8 big boys you got there!
Facts. All. The details are where it is at. Exactly.
Cool Uncle Tony. I trained as a lathe/milling machine operator but never used one at work but I did work a thread cutting machine that was 6 lathes in one... anyways at home in the tool shed I use a regular small fine stone bench wheel and backface the valve with my hand ✋ resting on a suitable cushion at the angle required, then the valve goes into the battery powered screwdriver at top speed to be cleaned up with steel wool/scotch pad!
The the sharp ridge is exactly for the large fuel droplets. The air is made turbulent, but the goal is for the droplets to re-enter the flow, but atomized. The ridge definitely restricts flow and reduces top end power.
Newer tech on valves accomplishes this with back-cut angles, rather than a radius. It turns out that extreme ridge is more than what’s necessary.
A little more here...a little more there. Tony, I really like your philosophy on engine building. Take what you have and optimize it. Perfect for us backyard wrenchers. Thank you. 😁
What happened to the Miata?
Lol . I forgot about that miata .
My two cents on the valve shroud (or curtain) was to improve the swirl and create turbulence so mixture burning efficiency could be increased.
Was good for normal engine use but is certainly an area where increase air flow can be obtained. This shroud is actually good for flow at initial valve opening but becomes an obstacle later in the opening range.
The exhaust valves also can benefit from some modifications but in a different way since the air flow is being pushed out instead of pulled in.
Definitely a cool trick. Slag hammer is looking great! I can't wait to see it run down the track.
I think that ridge is there just to make the valve face wider, so they don’t have to be quite as accurate when machining the valve seat in the heads. Bigger target, easier to hit. Tolerance stack-up, that kind of stuff.
I think its manufacturing related too more than anything
I would tend to agree: it looks like the result of process limitations/cost control rather than some highly subtle engineering on run of the mill production engines, Save a few bucks making millions of engines would certainly get the attention of corporate bean-counters.
drill chucked into a vice...perfect for the home engine builder !!
Good on you uncle Tony with your advice the homebuilder with no money can improve internal engine airflow aerodynamics……!!
Keep it up mate all the best from Melbourne Australia
Awesome video, I would think that troft would be there to maybe help induce a little turbulence. or a little bit of swirl effect of the afr mixture in low rpms to keep atomization. But I'm just guessing here, I have seen this in some of the engines I've torn down and built.This is something I want to try on a smaller engine I'm going to tear down soon and rebuild on a cool little project I've got. Thanks for more free power Tony.
That Tony just amazes me how he can come up with useful information day after day he is a true grey beard.
my thoughts was that little lip would start the air/fuel mixture tumbling like a sideways tornado when it slides down the back face and hits the lip. my first car was a 72 mercury capri with a 2000 cc motor that had a bad hole. i got the same engine out of a pinto and rebuilt it. stock bottom end but i ported and polished the head and intake swirl polished the valves and played with the cam and ignition timing. it was good enough to sheer the flywheel bolts doing hole shots. and the amazing thing was it got 33 mpg no matter how you drove it.
on the valves i cut the lip at an extreme angle to remove it then chucked the valves in a lathe spinning the valves and using a hand drill with a small drum sanding adapter i polished them up varying the speeds till i got the finish i wanted. ended up with about a 130 degree swirl. i could spin b-60-13's in 3 gears. an absolute beast yet it was still a great everyday driver. the biggest thing with any engine is breathing both in and out. most old cars had a bad case of copd from the factory.
I would think the ridge on the back face would be for turbulence. Swirling air across the head some towards the rings, instead of the more direct shot into the bore. These are the types of tricks I love too, turning the factory stamped out dime a dozen stuff into hand built efficient labors of love. Amazing what a little massaging of assembly line stuff can do to really bring out the potential. For the price of elbow grease and patience
You mean AL has done all that work on slag without a drill press? Now that's dedication...
I believe that ridge on the intake valve is to CREATE A TURBULENCE and achieve a better displaced mixture of fuel and oxygen in preperation for the big bang known to some as ignition.
I gained 17 HP in my Volare last night. All I did was clean out the trunk. Today 3 more HP as I vacuum the carpet.
You can pick up another tenth just by leaving the wife at home. 100 lb weight loss.
Divorce is another way
Thanks! Keep the videos coming!
I love all your tips and tricks! Nice work!
Love the channel Uncle Tony,been here since day one..so if memory serves me you did an episode about back facing valves before.
Yes he did. I’ve watched it a few times. So much science
This goes much further in depth however, it's worth a watch.
@@SugarSpyce not sure as “much further” but does provide additional info. Agreed it’s worth the watch. I always watch 100% of UTG vids 🙂
Back cutting valves is getting a lot of attention lately on YT . We were doing this decades ago along with many many other builders . I wish I had a valve resurfacing machine , I always loved doing valve jobs .
Idk if you will see this comment but I was wondering if you could do a video on repairing or refurbishing fuel sending units. I bought my dream project car three years ago and I found out they do not make any replacement parts for the fuel sending unit and i would really like to have a working gas gauge. Nos ones I’ve found were over a grand so that’s not a option for my budget 🤣
Just take it apart, figure out how it works, and fix it! You have nothing to lose it doesn't work now anyway! You can do it brother!!!
I suspect the ridge is there as an artifact of production. Those old valves are made with a casting process, so it's got to be something to do with the molds, or thermal expansion/shrink during production.
I always just assumed the ridge on the valve was for strength, to go 100k plus miles.
Tony my uncles a old hemi guy that's shown me a few flow benches I'm not sure if you knew about rolling the exhaust valves sharp edge off on the combustion side, needless to say I'm drilling magnum heads and cleaning the castings up for a project engine for my 96 ram
The ridge causes a small distinct area where it recovers some of the fuel that has 'fallen out' of the airstream due to the high speed over the edge.
There´s more to say, but it is the simple explanation.
I always wondered if the ridge was there to add more mass at the seat to deal w heat, that doesn't make alot of sense on an intake valve so I suspect your theory is more likely to be true. I've been backfacing valves and radiusing the back edge of exhaust valves forever, it's one of the first cheap HP tricks I ever learned. Like you say, finding a bit everywhere you can adds up. Plus it's just interesting and fun
The potential of stock motors with a little knowledge elbow grease and a file is crazy
Old skul tech. Love it.
Your not old, I grew up the same way in the fifties with no money and no parts. I overhauled my first motor in 1964 one 1950 Williys ring had a layer of sludge keeping them closed had no compression at all. after cleaning in gas because thats what I had they worked again. My father was so pissed he gave the willys to my brother in law and sold the 1958 Pontiac the motor was coming from and quite working on cars.
Yep! HP is in the details!
Nothing like a couple of extra horses for nothing but time and know how thanks big T
I’ve been doing that for years! I use my valve grinding machine at the corresponding angle to knock down and smooth the back of the valves.
Not really sure how much it helps but most motors I do that to seem to run better than doing nothing.
Of course I do other small things to that same motor so hard to tell what exactly helped the most..
I tried doing this as a teenager in the 80s seemed to make sense. Didnt know a thing about heads valves etc.
No clue if I got the angle right, just eyeballing it. DIdnt feel a difference but didnt run worse either
Brings back some bottle rocket memories!
had i grown up with you for an uncle i am sure my life would have turned out much differently.. thank you for all of the information you share and for helping people around you as well as on here.. best thoughts and wishes to you and yours
The Free Horse Power Fairy 😂😂 I Love It Tony !!
I have learned about material refinements on this site.
Yes the back face lip is to keep fuel droplets from entering the combustion chamber.
Great video it flowed well. Ty. I wonder the same thing is there a pro to the valve ridge. I thought it was a low lift advantage didnt think about cold advantage, thats a good point, perhaps its at the extreme of the two. Perhaps its nothing at all and just a production side to error on. Another thought was valve regitity/stiffness/strength/longevity effects. Would love to know more. Thanks again UTG.
I always thought that lip around the outside of the valve head was to create a larger contact area with the seat, which would help with pulling excess heat out of the valve and into the casting to be wicked away into the coolant.
Just a question, in total how much "extra" would you expect on a good engine detailing. On the 383 do you expect 15 hp, 10%; do you have a guesstimate?
thats funny I made comment about what to do before Tony did about the valves and we are on the same page, if you have a drill press you can renew the valve surface
I've always wandered if it was to help the Atomization? The Ridge was there to help the Swirl, the Turbulence of the Air flow coming into the Cylinder. . . . Giving the Fuel an extra millisecond or two to mix as air is rushing and cramming against the surface.
Like an whirlpool or jetty effect in a river linet/outlet/mouth.
how's bottlerocket doing? Thats one of my favorite builds here. I also have a 72 dodge coronet mines has a 1975 dodge truck 318 with unknown edelbrock cam and 4barrel aluminum duel plane intake with 360 exhaust manifolds and 2.25 duel straight piped (mufflers coming) with crossover pipe at tranmission. 904 Auto 8.25 axle with 2.71 gears. Fuel economy is important to me but not the only goal. im vary happy with this set up so far. But im not a racer more of a hobbyist. Its about learning and seeing what i can do. Great channel.
If she idles smooth you probably have the old Edelbrock performer plus cam
Its basically like the old Melling or Elgin "rv" cam. Good for torque and mpg
Isky supercam is popular with mpg goals also. Old grind but does the job
HOWdy U-T-G,
FREE Power for the Shade-Tree Mechanic
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I think the ridge on the valve is to keep the edge thicker so that it will be less prone to warping from the heat.
Personally I blame squirrels
Good stuff!
thanks
the ridge on the exhaust might be better to help create the slightest low pressure area to help draw the exhaust towards the valve to slightly help start a good exhaust pull...think of it as a cowl induction for the exhaust ..lol
the ridge is there to ramp the air fuel mixture when it flows past the edge of the intake valve. It has a major affect on mixing the air and fuel on carburetor engines. Everyone knows that
idea on the lip: promote swirl at low lift and low rpm situations for grampa joe and that crazy lady down the street with 37 cats
They put the ridge on there to help with swirl of the mixture as it enters the combustion chamber.
Get a handle on that file tang! Lol I love it!
Off the top of my head, two non-performance thoughts on the ridge. Durability - old designs were 'rougher,' no computer analyses, so knowing the limits of optimization was less certain. So as a hedge against problems, make it more robust. Manufacturability - in forming the valves in a mass manufacturing environment, the ability to accurately form the seat area without distortion may have been limited by the old processes.
On the exhaust valve, with the greater heat, removing material from this area might increase the likelihood of a burnt valve
Awesome video tony!! Love it!!
Smart stuff
Cool info 👌
Car Culture Leader UTG
👍
At the end of that video I thought you were coming on to ultra Kathy 😀….thx T
Valves are forged, the correct portion of a steel rod is forced through the dies to size it's diameter then clamped in place with enough excess to form the head extended out and the head forming die pushes back on the end forcing it into the head shaped die, mushrooming the material into the that die, the length is cut and the semi finished valve is pushed out and drops into the bin to be taken in batches for final machining of the face and lock grooves and correct length. The ridge is just flash basically, not considered worth grinding or machining completely away for the extra few seconds of cost, if there's purpose to leave or other than that one never found that info written down anywhere, even in the engineering documents I've read. There's a slight excess thickness where the face will be ground and the ridge is the inside edge of that thicker metal!
Dammit, sorry about the editing!
Could it be for more seating surface and durability?
Another method I use is a flat rotary stone in a hand drill instead of the hand file. It's a little faster.
Love your video mate
I've always called that: "Picking up horsepower crumbs".
Do you put a radiused margin on the exhaust valve? Rounding off the sharp edge on the face of the valve to help the gas flow around it easier to get out, kind of a similar effect as backfacing the intake valve. Never radius margin an intake valve, as it promotes reversion.
Knew an old machinist that said not to grind the "duckbill" off...still, modern engines don't have them.
Dude, slag hammer looks like some kind of badass desert marauder car now lol
Every car I've ever seen with the engine pulled looks high in the front like it's gonna Lunge. Isn't it going to level out a bit when the engine and tranny are in and all buttoned up? Also, I'm glad you didn't have a drill press because I don't have a drill press. Showing the regular hand drill in the vice taught me something new.
That is to move air flow at lower RPMs helps redirect
Wait a minute.... that wasn't long enough... I need my fix of UTG