Nobody talks about him but Dion was an absolute MVP. Still managed to put up a fight with a god despite having most of his powers taken and permitted Clive and Joshua to kill Ultima. No wonder Joshua trusted him the most out of everyone. He really carried the empire’s legacy on his back and honestly made it as my second favorite dragoon in the entire series with his poignant story and the absolute cinema his fights were.
Bahamut was the mvp I said fighting him was even harder then fighting ultima he had way more power and if had that power he could whooped ultimas ass easy
Clive became my favorite protagonist of this entire saga. He started out as someone full of hatred for the betrayals and losses of his loved ones and ended up as someone who was warm and protective of others. incredible character and incredible VA.
I know I'm going to get alot hate for this but I found Clive boring and very 2 dimensional. And alot of his decisions I find odd, like he goes all out his way to save Joshua, but then he's fine when he goes alone or to fight Odin in that one mission on the boat, like you spent over 15 years looking for him so now reunited naturally you would be by his side at all times during any danger. I felt he only really cared for his close ones when they got hurt or died. I found younger Clive significantly better at start of the game imo
@@bungifish2227 You guys never like anything and just want to critize when find someone truly liking and being happy for something, that's very annoying
"We fight. We survive. We endure. We don't need a reason. We are imperfect creatures. When we stumble, we reach for a shoulder to lean on. When we fall, we stand back up. We see the horizon ever out of reach and still we march on...certain the answers lie just beyond it. Because that is our way." I love the themes of 'humanity vs gods' and 'free will vs fate' and how Clive's character is the purest embodiment of human will and emotion. Such an incredible character.
I liked it but ultima just did not do it for me man was boring as all hell like if they made him more like the antispirals from guren lagann or something like that because golly was he boring
@@BigBoyGlassesThat is because Ultima wasn't human, he was a greedy sociopath who was afraid of dying. So it makes sense that a dude who cares only cares for himself would be a miserable boring pos, lol.
This monologue was epic. I haven't had a game make me feel quite like that before. I had to remind myself this is a video game and Clive isn't Jesus Christ returning.
I honestly thought by the end it would just be Clive and Joshua vs Ultima, so it makes me really happy that Dion got this far and helped form Tri-Disaster. Such an epic and memorable moment, he really lived up to the title of Bahamut.
Seeing Gav cry at the end when saying "Its what they both wanted" completely broke me. By the time i heard Torgal howling, i was a complete mess. Its been a long time since a game has made me cry like this.
Just finished the game and ended up bawling my eyes out for 15 minutes. The mini flashback to Clive and Joshua's childhood, and that last scene with Torgal and Jill looking towards the sunrise both fucking killed me. It's been a long time since any kind of media has evoked these kinds of emotions from me. 10/10. I'm so glad I played this game. Utter perfection.
@@RedThr3e XIV is excellent. Despite its dated graphics, the storytelling and character development, including both protagonists and antagonists, are incredibly well-crafted. Although the early 2.0 story was rather dull, it proves to be truly worthwhile by the end. If the perfect score is 10, I'd give XIV a 9.5, and XVI an 8.
I'm so glad that 1: Gav didn't die or betray you, and 2: Byron didn't die or betray you. Byron initially seemed to me like a character who would do anything, even sell out his own family, to maintain his comfort. But then he literally spends himself into destitution for the cause, and all with a smile and a hearty laugh. And the fact that Clive shows genuine affection for Gav as a brother-in-arms is incredibly touching. Just...the ENTIRE leading cast, you either love, or you love to hate them. It's awesome. EDIT: And you CANNOT tell me that Clive's final punch to Ultima was NOT inspired by Capcom's "Ashura's Wrath." When I saw that, I was like "Punching God in the face so hard it kills him because he brought grief to your loved ones? YEEEEES!"
Oh dude that’s the most BLATANT Asura’s Wrath reference but they’re sprinkled throughout the game which made me smile so much! The falling section of the Titan lost fight is just the beginning of Asura’s Wrath and then he fucking Strider kicks Titan! This game wears its references with PRIDE!
The way Dion said he's not asking for acceptance, only forgiveness while interposing himself between Ultima and Clive and Joshua with the intent of sacrificing himself to atone for nearly obliterating the planet gave me goosebumps. He carried a huge chunk of this game on his back and I'm not at all convinced he's dead. I hope to see him in a future DLC or expansion pack because he arguably had the strongest character arc in the game and has the most potential out of all the characters.
Something small I really like during the final clash between Clive and Ultima is that Clive uses the names of the Eikons when summoning their power while Ultima just calls upon the element as if not acknowledging them as more then tools
The Clive/Joshua flashback absolutely KILLED ME. I was in tears. Then I couldn’t return home to my baby Jill. Another wave of tears. The ending was so intensely sad, I loved it. Any one else notice similarities between Clive and Ultima’s final fight and the final fight between Simon and The Spiral from Gurren Lagan? Especially the ending with the punch, seemed straight from the anime lol loved it.
"The only *fantasy* here is yours. And we shall be its *final* witness!" This line is proof that Clive didn't die on that beach and went on to write the 'Final Fantasy' book shown in the epilogue, using his brother's name as a way of honoring his memory.
@@farmsalot1233 He's the only character who could've come up with that title because it's based on what he said to Ultima while no one else was around to hear it. Unless you want to make the claim that Joshua somehow overheard their conversation despite being dead at the time. But go on, then, let's hear your explanation of the ending, I will enjoy shooting it down.
@@dr_feelgood1902deleted my reply because you're probably right lol, but if Joshua was alive I could have seen him knowing, but Clive probably survived
@@Tatssus You shouldn't have deleted it, Joshua does talk to Clive during the battle and that could be how he overheard that line, but then a lot of characters are heard during that scene so it might not mean anything. It's just that we actually get to see Clive survive long enough to get washed ashore, while Joshua isn't seen again, so it's easier to assume Clive survived. Now, if they had washed up on that beach together that would be a different story.
Seeing quite a few peoples takes on what the ending meant made me look into things a bit more myself. I had originally thought Clive died and felt that was just extremely hollow without fully understanding why. After reading a lot here and reading some of the ATL logs, I think I’ve got a bit of a better grasp on things than I did before. Starting off: I wanna debunk the idea that the children at the end only could have known “The Saint and the Sectary” because one of the Rosfields told it to them. No. The ATL entry states that it is “A beloved Valisthean fable” which means that basically everyone knew of it, so it’s likely that the kids had heard the story from their parents or a book or something assuming they’re not Rosfield descendants, otherwise they would absolutely have heard this tale because of their connection to Clive and Byron and such. Now on to my take: I do indeed believe that Clive survived. The leading theory that people seem to have supporting his death is the fact that when he washed up on the beach, his hand had turned to stone and thus they concluded “He must be dying then”. While true, the crystals curse will kill someone if they use too much magic, no one really takes into account that aether needs to be actively channeled for that process to occur. What’s more is that it is stated that the more aether channeled, the more someone will suffer the effects of the curse. Bigger spells and abilities, bigger spread. Clive was never immune I don’t believe, rather he was just EXTREMELY resistant to it. Clive uses Eikonic abilities, magic, semi-primes, and full primes numerous times throughout the game and only NOW does he suffer any adverse affects, especially after absorbing Ultima and using his powers to destroy Origin, something any other ordinary Bearer or Dominate would INSTANTLY die from while even so much as attempting to use his powers, I’m certain, given that he’s the creator of almost everything in the world. Once Origin and Ultima were defeated and magic was seemingly eliminated, there would be no way to channel any more aether, thus his curse would not spread. Considering it was Ultima that gave the world magic and crystals and Eikons, I think it’s safe to say that they would disappear after his death, especially if such things are considered to be fairy tales in the future. After he absorbs Ultima, he does state that his power is “too much for his body to handle.” Again, keep in mind he’s never had any major adverse affects from using any of the Eikon abilities or magic up until now, despite having 8 in him. I believe that he reacts this way because those same adverse affects are probably newer to him now that he has an entity that can actually cause these affects within him, though to be fair this is my own speculation, but one rooted in what we already know. Another thing: Joshua, regardless of anything, does not survive, or at the very least is highly unlikely to have survived. He states himself that wounds can be mended by the Phoenix, but the spirit needs to heal on its own. When he dies in origin, it takes a while before Clive comes back and heals the wound, so Joshua is already long past dead at that point with no “spirit” left. That and the giant gash in his chest. If that wasn’t enough, no one in the group would fear dying if the Phoenix could outright resurrect the dead. So, Joshua is well past saving I believe. One thing that some have talked about is Metia. Some say that the disappearance of Metia is symbolic of Clive’s death or that Clive himself removed it. I think that in a world with magic and gods, there genuinely could be a star that takes wishes and moves them to the moon to be granted. With a world that has no magic however, it would probably make sense that this potentially magic entity capable of helping wishes come true would also cease to exist. This is also speculation. Something else worth noting: Clive says that he can tell Jill is still alive when she’s captured is because he can feel her presence or her Eikon’s aether, or something to the affect. Assuming this wasn’t a one off, perhaps Jill could sense Clive was still alive as well and that is why she smiled at the end. Though I won’t get into the symbolism or foreshadowing (such as Clive using Joshua’s name as a pen name similarly to how he used Cid’s name as a title and the comparison of Clive and the dawn as said by Jill) too much as others have done that and I wanted to mainly throw out some facts that the game and ATL clearly state themselves. Last thing I feel I should note: The title of the book “Final Fantasy by ‘Joshua Rosfield’” is one that only Clive would have really been able to come up with. Something else that people don’t give too much credit to is the fact that ONLY Clive would have known about those words he said to Ultima. If he had died, they would have been taken to the grave. It’s possible that someone else could have *maybe* come up with a similar title if they had the same thought process as Clive had, but no one else would have used Joshua’s name, and it couldn’t have been him since we established that he’s 100% dead. Harpocrates wouldn’t have used Joshua’s name, I’m sure, nor Vivian. *Maybe* they would’ve used Clive’s instead, but it wasn’t Clive’s name on the book. I mainly made this borderline essay because everyone’s discussing or arguing on Clive’s fate and I wanted to throw my hat in as I remembered a few things of my own that no one brought up or considered too deeply and threw them in as well. I haven’t read the entirety of the ATL, just everything I thought would be relevant. There may be more to prove or disprove what I’ve said, but what I *have* seen from the ATL and the symbolism surrounding it all can in no way convince me that Clive did not survive. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk Post “FF” mode playthrough edit: Watching the cutscene again in my final fantasy mode play through, the curse is a gradual process, so there’s that. With how quickly it took Clive’s hand though (mere seconds) I would’ve expected it to be shown going further up his arm like other have pointed out. I find it a little weird though that his fingers were taken and that was it during his whole fall and washing up on that beach. The camera quickly moves on from that, so of course, interpretation is king here for now. I did make the assumption that perhaps Jill could feel his Eikon’s presence or something to the effect. This would probably be impossible as he used Ultimas power to get rid of magic and Eikons, though it’s also shown that he seemingly relinquished his power, so did magic immediately fade? Was it his choice to get rid of his own abilities? Who knows honestly. And finally quick note: Jill’s expression at the end tells me “relief” more than anything. That’s all from me again (maybe)
Nice writeup, agree with a lot of what you said but I think you might have Clive's final moments wrong. I don't think that magic and the eikons would necessarily have disappeared just because Ultima died, otherwise the events with Clive using the power of the phoenix directly afterwards most likely couldn't have happened. The impression I got from Clive's dialogue after absorbing Ultima's power was that he was going to use all the aether gathered to instead revitalise the land rather than making a new world, as well as making magic, crystals and the eikons disappear as they were the cause of the blight. It's mentioned several times that casting such a large spell would be impossible without a strong enough body (as you mentioned, Clive is capable of using magic while being barely effected by the curse) and, even though Clive is able to cast it, it causes the curse to very rapidly consume him. Maybe dead, maybe not, I believe the choice to not show him fully turning to stone was intentionally to leave it open. I like your ideas on Clive passing forward Joshua's memoirs on the events that happened being the same as his carrying Cid's name as well, but pretty certain that the world is "normal" in the secret ending thanks to Clive casting a spell using all of the land's aether. And if he is indeed dead at the end, I personally think that shouldn't be taken as a hollow ending; he ultimately gave his life casting a spell that would bring Cid's dream to life - a world where people can live as they choose because they are all equals. Edit: One quick edit, I don't remember where specifically but at one point Clive does directly state that even the Phoenix can't bring people back from the dead, so you're correct there too.
@@capnneckbeard847 I mean, of course magic wouldn’t immediately be gone cause Clive was able to still use magic after Ultima died. Yes, it was left ambiguous on purpose, but for me it doesn’t change the fact that one ending feels miles better than the other. The main issue I have with Clive’s potential death is that it feels like a disservice to him. Like, I was able to accept both Noct and Class 0 dying at the end of their respective games. It made sense and felt fitting (Though in Nocts case, the game’s ending would technically be considered the “bad” ending after the book came out). Here, I got the sense of “Well what was the point of those last few side quests I did with Jill and Harpocrates then? Were they just there to pull on the heart strings more? Nothing hinted to this outcome as far as I could tell. It just came out of the blue. Seems like a really damn cheap copout coming from the writers of Heavensward, *the expansion that almost every xiv player agrees has the best story.*” Given everything else I’ve read from comments, it doesn’t make much sense either. To the point of the curse gradually taking over, I’d say that, as far as I could see in the cutscene, it hadn’t progressed, nor was it progressing, past his hand. Perhaps it could have progressed more off screen, but given everything else in the game, it looks like the affected areas of the curse just sort of appear. I don’t recall the game ever showing the spreading actively, just after it’s already spread. Especially with Kupa who was completely fine before the Titan fight and then *poof* stone. If the curse is supposed to be a creeping sort of spread, then the game didn’t do much of a good job showing or explaining that
Nice writeup but Clive is dead. Metia dying symbolically means the wish will no longer be fulfilled, unlike the last wish Jill made which came true when Metia was burning bright. After all how can a wish be fulfilled by a dead star? It's right there in the lyrics of the song that plays in the final scene: "My half, my beacon and my hope A sky of scattered tears A thousand years apart Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark For your flame still burns inside me deep within my heart Showing me, a new tomorrow, never too far And when I cannot bear the pain, I look up to the sky and pray And though our night is over you shall always remain, forever, my treasure, my star"
@@markonnen Assuming she didn’t make another wish immediately after Clive and the rest left. The Star going out definitely meant she couldn’t make a wish from that point on, but whose to say she didn’t already. Also, as much as it would make sense in a symbolic sense that the star going out means he died, that alone isn’t convincing enough. Symbolism can be taken in many ways by anyone. That’s partly why I tried not to use Jill’s endgame sidequest as evidence
100% Clive and Jill's descendants. The silver, black and blonde hair colors aside, the book aside, the dog aside, notice what they mentioned before playing War of the Eikons. The Saint and the Sectary. The one brother doesn't want to play the antagonist Madu. This was the same play that Clive played with his Uncle Byron and always forced him to play Madu instead of Sir Crandall. With Rosaria in shambles, and its royalty lost, how would this story and tradition have passed on? Yet another of many pieces of evidence that Clive lived and has carried on the legacy of his favorite tale to his children, and their children's children.
Or he knocked up jill and she had kids and passed the stories down, she saw all the plays too after all 😅 As much as I like clive I think he should stay dead or it'll take away the impact of the story But if enough fans ask for it knowing square Enix they'll give us a final fantasy 16 - part 2 with clive surviving or coming back to life 🤙
@@andrew-rn9ui I'm guessing you missed the Priceless side quest which actually has a full Clive and Jill cutscene? This quest 100% confirms he lives based on symbolism and foreshadowing. It makes the ending sunrise make sense. In it, Jill said quote "I realized that, no matter how terrible the night, the dawn would always come. That you would always come...for me. And you have. Again and again." That is why Torgal howls, a social call to packmates to help him find his way home and stops when the sun rises. It is also why Jill gasps and smiles at the sunrise, it was all foreshadowed in that quest. Notice too, that the torch near them is blazing strongly. Combine this with the star going out as a sign her wish for his return coming true. Only his hand gets petrified and stops at the wrist, and they never explicitly showed his whole body, which would have been far more emotional to watch him turn to stone. Many bearers continue living with petrified limbs. While you say him living ruins the impact of the story, I believe it is the exact opposite. If he died, every shred of dialogue that Clive has would be pointless. He wanted to make a world where everyone can LIVE on their own terms but never was allowed to live himself, only survived and killed. Jill tells him that he always saves others but the one person he needs to save is himself. He also promises to return to her and makes the dialogue of keeping promises. By killing him off, all of this development the narrative gives would be destroyed. The story is about hope no matter how dark things get. We as the viewer are supposed to empathize with Jill, believing he is dead...only to have hope once we see the sun rise. It's honestly incredible storytelling, that one gets a bad ending only if one misunderstands the meaning of the tale (and misses the side quests). This is also why Clive narrates the tale, and the end is narrated after showing Jill and Torgal waiting for him. His journey ends when he comes home. Editing to mention that Joshua has to be dead and the book was written by Clive using Joshua as a pen name to give him a legacy to be remembered by, just as he did with Cid. It was Clive's left hand, not right that was petrified, so he could still have written it. This was also foreshadowed in a sidequest about how he intends to write his story after the journey is over and that he is the narrator in the beginning and end, right before we see the book.
@@ryukyuiansunflower No... Clive literally says that "My body cant handle ultimas power after all..." The red star going out was symbolic of Clive dying and that's why Jill started bawling. Clive is dead but Jill still ended up pregnant from the events on the Isle for "The Promise". Clive is right handed.
@@1ch1r1n I disagree, because that would ruin all the symbolism and foreshadowing given to us over the course of the entire narrative, and especially in the sidequest Priceless. But I already explained all the specifics to this in other response of this same thread and don't wish to type up a storm again, if you wish to look through the comments. Adding to it though, if he were to die, they easily and should have shown his whole body petrify. Would have been far more emotional for the viewer. Instead, they stopped at his hand, and bearers only continue to petrify due to frequent and forced use. Cid was fine for a long time with only his arm petrified because he kept using magic.
Dion redeemed himself and he truly believed it in his final moments as he fell. He is the only Dominant (besides Clive, Jill, and Joshua) to not drink Aether and be consumed wholly by it. He survived the fight against Ifrit and the Phoenix. All of the other Dominants lost control of their Eikons and became essentially empty vessels as the Gods just took over. I bring this up because Dion became Bahamut and still maintained control of himself rather than Bahamut taking over
Da hell, he merged with the mother crystal in his arc........and lost control after he lost his dad which made him lose control. No one else survived as they were slain right after so whats to say the other dominants couldnt do the same?
Ultima took a hold of his broken mind, and had him rage out on everything, he willingly didn’t give himself into aether, but he did merge with the mother crystal, or atleast Bahamit did
To be honest, everything was going as horribly as possible for Dion, so I can't quite blame him on the whole for everything that happened. I would have snapped far earlier than him tbh.
@@hopeinvoked1822 man’s was holdin it down for dear life Workin double shifts fightin armies AND friggin Odin himself Daddy on that bullshit all cause he under the dreadful level 4 magic spell called GAUK GAUK from dat disloyal bitch of a queen His baby’s brotha demon possessed and a little brat to boot boy to get the fuggin throne and send it all to hell with a gleeful smile on his face And to top it all off…..when my man bout to take care of the source itself……he accidentally kills daddy…..with his own weapon no less……. Fug it,Nuke the planet 😂😂😂
Dude when the red star dimmed and the song quietly stopped…so sad. Such an amazing game and what an incredible finale. Thank you Yoshi P and Square Enix!
Joshua saying how Ultima is a being that comes from another world (referencing how summons and specially Ultima are powers seeked by our characters from other SE games to truly power up their abilities) is what a lot of the plot surrounding the Ultima from FF 16 comes from I think. In other civilizations (Final Fantasy, BD, KH, etc) Ultima is always the most destructive power, but here they gave it a twist to give Ultima a body, mind and ambition (kind of like BD 2, but not quite there, since FF 16's Ultima is more omnious and a whole being).
Asura would be proud of the final Punch here, and for Clive essentially doing the same thing he did (Saying screw you to the top God, and kill them so that humanity can thrive without the need for them).
Punching the creator in the face with a face-melting, button-mashing QTE. Where have I seen that before? Man, this game really wears its influences on its sleeve. And I love it for that.
Just another comment flowing in. This FF will be remembered as both a modern turning point for the series and a classic. It's impossible not to like it.
I doubt it honestly, I feel that FFXIII was the turning point in the saga and you can just notice it with this game that drinks from many of its mechanics.
Followed Asura's Wrath storyline. Its better off without magick and summons. Its better off without Mantra and monsters. Looking at the ending of the story... not seeing any monsters. With the source of magic cut off, all of them perished
@@godzilla4189 That wasn't Joshua's book, it was Clive's, he's just using his brother's name either to honor him, or because he's still technically an outlaw and thus needs to hide his identity.
This was a very good Final Fantasy indeed. FF15 looks even shittier now compared to FF16. :D But i hope they don't want Yoshida to Produce FF17 as well. FF14 needs him. FF14 was lacking a bit of everything since Yoshida was to busy for FF14.
@@magus9180 After the 7 Remake gets fully completed it's X-3 that'll be next. I can't recall if it was Kitase or Nomura, but one of them said the story was written and they just need to wait for the Remake to be done before they have the resources to be able to start development.
Man I just watched the whole game on multiple youtube accounts and this game is fuckin epic as hell. Definitely one of the best Final Fantasy's. These boss fights are OUTRAGEOUS. I think the craziest one was the Titan bossfight though. Ultima's fight even seemed a little disappointing compared to it lol. They really did it right with this FF, from the combat to the intricate story that didn't seem cheesy at all, they really delivered!
Really hope hat clive didnt die and return to jill. The focus on the moon, Metia and jills smile at the rising dawn along with her prior dialogue at the flower fields points to him being alive. We need the DLC.
Yep that’s what happened. But the game has to be successful to get DLC. And pay close attention to the kids and mother, notice the mom has a similar hair?
The fact that he also wasn't shown actually dying, just his arm petrifying. But I really don't like it. I think they should just embrace a happily ever after, saccharine and all.
Man this game is really fantasitic. It is my first time to watch a whole FF game and it took me 3 days to completely watch . I never thought the game would be this epic.
In the side quest before this with jill they said with each dawn clive will come back and in the end a dawn appears and jill stops crying and clive had only his arm frozen not his whole body
Yeah I watched my replay a few times he just passed out on the beach and lost his hand not even his arm. She cried cause the star went out but that's a symbol her wish was granted.
Till the end I hoped Joshua will live 😢 He was and still is my favourite character. I'm so devastated since I ended the game. Clive and Joshua had such a unique relationship 🥺 Since The Last Of Us and The Plague Tale Requiem, Final Fantasy XVI is a third game which made me cry so much 💔
@@shedricklillard65 do you remember that when they died they meet and they live togheter their final fantasy (because their ff was to be happy togheter married)
I thought this villain was way better integrated than most others but also very similar in character to those of other games. His motives as a „god“ who just wanted to safe his people were understandable. He just had the will to survive. He didn’t foresee that consciousness and will would form within his creations and he literally became the same as those people he created who developed greediness. That’s also why Clive said during the fight: „we are equal, you’re not better than us“. Instead of working together with those who had faith in him (god), he abandoned the humans to fulfill his own greedy plan without feeling any compassion. Ultima is the reason people began doing their own thing in the first place because they felt left alone. I thought it was pretty cool and smart. But it’s just my opinion..
Also help for once we didn't get some ass pull like in most FF games when we suddenly get the "true final boss" I fucking hated that. Ultima being the true last boss really solidified his role as a good Villain in general not just in FF.
@@Xkrisar You mean for "god"? Because I think everyone has a different definition for what a god actually is and I dont want to offend someone who's actually believing in god :D I could also call him "alien with supernatural powers" or something lol...
@lelela2211 that's not what I mean. When you wwre quoting someone it looked off. You weren't using " " like for example you used „ " I just found it odd is all.
The most important side quests are "Priceless" along with "A Tail to Tell" Both played will explain the meaning of the dawn seen end game and the book, written by cid rosfield. "A Tail to Tell" "when the day comes, I'l certainly have a lot to write about" is what clive replied to Haprocrates after his encouragement to pick up a pen. Harpocrates is all-knowing as the game claims, but opting choosing to delve into the intimacy side of pheonix and ifrit(older brother), chances it's more likely Clive. There's a point in the game where Joshua clearly stated that his eikon's power could never bring someone back to life. I believe endings should be what the players choose for themselves as it's the current trend for recent games; completing all the necessary will give you the true ending. In Priceless, Japanese language; Jill likens Clive as the dawn who will always come for her without a doubt, said that's the part she likes about him and she confessed to him. Clive who loves his brother more than cid, should probably have higher chances that he would honor his brother's legacy. But, endings are arbitrary nowadays, it's a gamer's pick. cheers!
To add to all the ending discussion, one thing I see not brought up often enough, is that the developers were making conscious choices with their narrative devices and cutscene direction. And I'd like to trust that they were not frivolous and were meant to serve the story. For example, the first thing you are presented with in the beginning of the game, on top of Clive's narration, is Metia and the moon. Metia being so curious, that when I first played the demo, I thought I finally had gotten some screen burn-in until Jill's first prayer told me it was intentional. They could have chosen a flame or a crystal, but they chose this, as if to subtley tell the players "hey, this weird thing is gonna be pretty important." And sure enough, throughout the whole game we're told this is indeed significant, specifically to Jill. Following up on this, we come to the ending. When it comes to cutscene direction, Jill is the main focus. They want us to take what we know and interpret what's happening from Jill's perspective. Yes, Metia dims, but we're never actually told what that means. It's supposed to be shocking, for both Jill, and us, granted we're invested. It's frightening; we're losing faith in the uncertainty night brings. But this is followed by dawn. Sunrise, a new tomorrow, could very well be interpreted as the coming of a new age. I've seen some say this symbolizes the new world Clive has created, and had Mid or Gav gone to comfort Jill, I would be in this camp too. But only Jill and Torgal were chosen for this scene. The storytellers want us to continue viewing this from Jill's perspective, and for Jill, sunrise means hope; it means Clive is coming for her. Clive's death is ambiguous, his survival heavily supported, because the storytellers want us to feel the same hope and assurance Jill feels at the rise of dawn, after making us feel frightened in the dark. I personally think as far as a love story goes, it's a beautiful note to end on. As far as an ending to the story as a whole, it lacks closure, which is where I think the discourse in the discussion is born from. If I had it my way, the credits would have served as a moment to dwell on this feeling, and the post-credits would have actually been something sweet like Clive finishing up writing Final Fantasy as Jill checks up on him, or revealing the narration to actually be him reading it to his kids. I see what they were going for though, showing us Clive's struggle was fruitful, albeit on the nose. But hey, that ending song is pretty af, yeah? That's why I really keep coming back here. I need that OST yesterday.
Yes, this is largely how I saw things too. Combine the side quest content pointing signs (The quill, dawn being associated with Clive returning to Jill and the like) The idea of the star fading that then brought fear and worry to not only the characters but us, only for the sun to rise on the horizon is very much a good dramatic move. I do honestly think the ending was kept ambiguous purely because there was always going to be a 'maybe' on post game content i.e a DLC. In keeping it ambiguous it left the door to remain open if it was going to happen - Clive is alive and well confirmed, go enjoy your adventure. If not then - the ending is what you make of it, live or die its the interpretation of the individual player. Of course by seeding the idea that he is likely alive by placing the hints outside of the main quest (in side quests) it sort of gives the developers and writers more leeway than they had with the horribly railroaded story ending they had in FFXV - which again ultimately turned into a 'good' ending with the last DLC (which sadly was cancelled and released as a book).
The vast amount of callbacks to the series as a whole and the many amazing new things this entry did are absolutely stunning. I only hope we get a really good expansion someday that talks about what happens next and delves into Leviathan the lost.
Did anyone else see that in Origin the city below has what looks like a lot of modern buildings. We know that Ultima traveled from another world. Do we think there might be connection to somewhere else, another planet or timeline that destroyed itself with magic?
Ultima been a villain in the world of Ivalice for long. His first game appearance was as the prime antagonist of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. Ultima is one of the Lucavi (FF12 summons) created by the Ascians. In FFT, he also takes over “vessels”, which is the protagonist’s twin sister…he always takes over vessel, the earliest known in lore is Saint Ajora. If this is truly the end of Ultima, this game might take place after FFT, or even way after FFXIV. So it’s not weird to see ruins of modern cities in Origin. In the first place, that’s how it is in FFT as well which take place way after FFXII, there are buried ruins of lost advance civilization where FFXII took place in FFT.
Btw, when Ultima talk about his creations, I think he’s talking about Eikons, not about humans and the world. It fits the lore, considering Ivalice Union’s Eikons doesn’t exist in FFXII. It make sense if Eikons are created by Ultima after his betrayal to the Ascians…because that will when he and the other Lucavi are starting to take the mantle of gods. Logos might be Ultima’s language for Eikons, while Mythos might means vessel or chosen one.
Just beat this game. Besides VII Remake/Rebirth, XVI is what helped introduce me to this series. Though I love the VII Remake Trilogy more (so far), I’m grateful that Clive, Joshua, and Jill’s story was my first standalone Final Fantasy. Unforgettable experience.
Just here to copy and paste a post that someone did one Reddit. Think this gives a good perspective on the endings meaning and the writing as a whole. Okay so i gotta share my understanding and proof of the ending because i've seen so many rushed articles floating around that are straight up wrong and misinforming people about the ending of the game when it comes to clive. So here's why i think clive survived and came back to the hideout and jill: -First and foremost, Jill, her reaction at daybreak. If you saw/played through the flower field cutscene you'd know that to her daybreak means clive coming back to her. That's a symbolism and symbolisms are ALWAYS meaningful in FF games. Also the sigh of relief she made and the smile wouldn't exist if she saw anyone except clive. Jill herself is the biggest proof that clive survive and came back for her. On that same scene when we see the sun rising you can clearly see a boat slowly approaching the hideout on the middle-left of the screen. It's between the 3 big rock. There's a small lit up object in the water that doesn't have a shadow similar to the rocks if you notice the water's surface next to it meaning it's not a rock itself. It looks like one of the small boats like the ones they used in the beginning of the arc when the last timeskip happened. Pair that with Jill's reaction and it's pretty obvious that this is Clive coming back. It can't be joshua because 1) jill wouldn't be relieved to see joshua instead of clive she'd just weep more to the confirmation of losing her SO and 2) because we know phoenix can not revive dead people, it can only mend physical injuries. Clive made a last ditch attempt to save his brother but it was futile. -Secondly there's the metia star. The wishing star that jill always prays to for clive's return. It's disappearance meant that jill's wish was finally granted. She initially misunderstood and started crying but upon going outside and seeing him come back she probably understood what happened. Metia granted jill's wish to bring back clive and it disappeared in doing so. The existence of the star and the fact that it grants wishes has been known and foreshadowed since the very start of the game where Jill was as always praying to it for Clive's safe return. -Thirdly let's look at clive himself when he was at the shore. Due to exhausting his aether he starter turning into stone shown by his fingertips. It was NOT progressing on its own and it only got his entire hand when he tried to use magic. His hand was petrified and it stopped there. We've seen Cid losing his hand to petrification and the progression stopped there. We also saw cid lose his entire ARM to the petrification and it still didn't kill him. It's obvious that clive just lost a hand. Then he passed out due to exhaustion. A DLC idea would probably be clive's struggle to get back to the hideout. -The after credits scene. We see two kids looking like clive and joshua. Those are clearly clive's descendents waaaay into the future and the book is most likely written by clive himself. He told harpocrates (if i got the name right) in a side quest when he gave him a pen that someday he will write something. THIS BOOK is the something that clive decided to write and he credited it in the name of his brother so that his name would not be lost in time. The exact same way he used Cid's name after his death. He did it to honour his fallen brother just like he did it to honour Cid. -Also the narrator of the story is clive. The beginning and the end it's always clive narrating the story making it seem as if he's retelling it to his kids or something. That just wouldn't exist if he died. -Lastly, as a fellow redditor told me and is completely right, clive's whole development in the game is about learning to love himself and find meaning in life. This is shown when he said "no more breaking promises". Since then all the promises he made were out of love and genuineness. He promised he would keep joshua safe and that he would always come back to Jill. Breaking those promises would essentially break clive's entire development in the game and i doubt that's something any writer would do. This also serves as proof of why Joshua survived as well but besides this and an ambiguous healing scene there's not much proof to draw a conclusion. (credits to u/Rest_In_Pieces for bringing this to my attention) Anyone that has played more than 1 FF game would know that clive is alive simply by the "when the dawn breaks , you always come back to me" jill line and the dawn in the ending. That symbolism is enough to know clive survived. Symbolisms aren't new in FF games and they are never unimportant. In storytelling the conclusion isn't always spoon-fed. You have to pay attention to all the clues and symbolisms the game establishes to get the full picture by the time the credits drop especially in FF games where they love their symbolisms. This is exactly what they did here. I hope i helped shed some light on the ending after my multiple hours of research (played the game and rewatched a ton of stuff multiple times to get the full picture of things).
This game have an amazing storyline.❤ Why did it failed? It should have received so much positive reviews. Clive has struggled so much to free the world from Ultima and his rules which lead only to destruction of the nations. At last our protagonist and his brother, Joshua and our MVP, Dion Lesage died(He's my most fav MVP in final fantasy series).😢 A bittersweet ending with a secret scene displaying that centuries have passed since Valisthea had gained her freedom from Ultima and from dominants, bearers, crystals, magick etc. forevermore only to become a fairytale for future generations.
So many words to express how this game impacted me Especially at the end But I guess the pain and tears this game left me with will speak for itself I’m glad I got to experience this treasure of a game I just what the ones we loved in this game got to make it back This ending will always be my soft spot
Such a heartwarming story of brotherhood, sacrifice, and human will. The ending showed that humanity indeed prevailed without magic or rather their faith in magic, that which ultima gave. While it is the norm in final fantasy to overthrow god or religion, XVI shows a more grounded approach of what the outcome looks like. A simple family living without magic, and while its not as convenient as the prior world they find a way to solve problems, by evolution of technology and the like. It has also shown a perspective of the bitterness to challenge a concept so wrong in modern times but considered right in the past. This game is in fact final fantasy... I can't believe my love for this franchise has been resurrected because I was so dissastified with XV incomplete story
This was such a powerful ending, especially with the Clive/Joshua scenes. I'd like to hope both brothers survived, but in reality I think only Clive survived and made it back. Otherwise he wouldn't be narrating the game in past tense at the end. Joshua contributed a lot to the success of the final fight also, getting Dion on side and being determined (even at the cost of his own life) to ensure the group's best chance of defeating Ultima. I do kinda wish though that the group at least tried to discuss a way in which Joshua could have released the Ultima fragment from his chest without it being fatal, should the time come. He had such an important role in the story especially later and having his presence at the end of the game may have changed the outcome a little. But then again we wouldn't have had that incredible VA from Clive when Joshua passed.
I like to think that Joshua survived as well and both brothers made it back. There's some lore in the Tomes hinting towards that ending, so unless confirmed otherwise, that'll be my truth!
@@FuyuYuki92no one survived, this game and Clive are already in my top 3 list but damn they did ma boy hella dirty. He suffered his whole life, in the end he died leaving his love and watching his brother die.
I gotta say this because i've been seeing people spew lies about the endings meaning everywhere be it comment sections or brainless articles by the likes of IGN, anyone that unironically believes clive died is really grasping at straws. Just because FF16 is a dark game doesn't mean clive has to necessarily die. Here's some points to consider: -First and foremost, Jill, her reaction at daybreak. If you saw/played through the flower field cutscene you'd know that to her daybreak means clive coming back to her. That's a symbolism and symbolisms are ALWAYS meaningful in FF games. Also the sigh of relief she made and the smile wouldn't exist if she saw anyone except clive. Jill herself is the biggest proof that clive survive and came back for her. On that same scene when we see the sun rising you can clearly see a boat slowly approaching the hideout on the middle-left of the screen if you pause on 38:51. It's between the 3 rocks. Pair that with Jill's reaction and it's pretty obvious that this is Clive coming back. It can't be joshua because 1) jill wouldn't be relieved to see joshua instead of clive she'd just weep more to the confirmation of losing her SO and 2) because we know phoenix can not revive dead people, it can only mend physical injuries. Clive made a last ditch attempt to save his brother but it was futile. -Secondly there's the metia star. The wishing star that jill always prays to for clive's return. It's disappearance meant that jill's wish was finally granted. She initially misunderstood and started crying but upon going outside and seeing him come back she probably understood what happened. Metia granted jill's wish to bring back clive and it disappeared in doing so. The existence of the star and the fact that it grants wishes has been known and foreshadowed since the very start of the game where Jill was as always praying to it for Clive's safe return. -Thirdly let's look at clive himself when he was at the shore. Due to exhausting his aether he starter turning into stone shown by his fingertips. It was NOT progressing on its own and it only got his entire hand when he tried to use magic. His hand was petrified and it stopped there. We've seen Cid losing his hand to petrification and the progression stopped there. We also saw cid lose his entire ARM to the petrification and it still didn't kill him. It's obvious that clive just lost a hand. Then he passed out due to exhaustion. A DLC idea would probably be clive's struggle to get back to the hideout. -The after credits scene. We see two kids looking like clive and joshua. Those are clearly clive's descendents waaaay into the future and the book is most likely written by clive himself. He told hypocratus in a side quest when he gave him a pen that someday he will write something. THIS BOOK is the something that clive decided to write and he credited it in the name of his brother so that his name would not be lost in time. The exact same way he used Cid's name after his death. He did it to honour his fallen brother just like he did it to honour Cid. -Lastly, the narrator of the story is clive. The beginning and the end it's always clive narrating the story making it seem as if he's retelling it to his kids or something. That just wouldn't exist if he died. Honestly i wrote way more than what is needed. Anyone that has played more than 1 FF game would know that clive is alive simply by the "when the dawn breaks , you come back to me" jill line and the dawn in the ending. That symbolism is enough to know clive survived. Symbolisms aren't new in FF games and they are never unimportant. Anyway if your headcanon says clive died so be it but that will always be headcanon. Too much proof says clive is alive at the end. It really sucks that due to this game's action nature it has attracted a crowd that's not used to FF's storytelling style and they all miss the clues and symbolisms and proceed to spread misinformation. I kinda hope the devs themselves made it a bit more clear for players that are not long-time FF fans and can pick up on the clues.
Good fucking take, I do hope your right. Just finished the game today and really liked Clive. I would put him up there with Kratos as one of my favorite protagonists. I hope DLC is planned, Torgal having Fenrirs power is never fully explained, it's partially explained in a quest but it also mentions that he's like Clive that can use different powers. Yet for some reason beyond that 1 cutscene he never turns again which is definitely suspect. Unless the devs forgot about that subplot which I doubt.
@@justacheesecake6232 It's not really about being right or wrong when it's this obvious. FFS there's a damn boat approaching the hideout when dawn comes (hello symbolism) and jill lets out a sigh of relief before she starts smiling. It can't be any more obvious. I guess it can be by outright showing him landing in the hideout but that sort of thing isn't frequent in games anymore. Most games do it exactly like that. Everything telling you he survived but not outright showing the MC.
@@darthacez I'm not 100% certain on the boat but even in this video if you pause on 1:07:14 on the left side between all the rock formations there's a small object that is lit up by the sun way in the distance. Now if you notice its reflection in the water you'll see that it's not a rock if you compare it with the formations near it. It looks like a glowing object that is in FRONT of a rock because we can see a full rock reflection behind it. From the distance it looks like one of the small ferry boats they used in the beginning of the last act (immediately after the last timeskip you see one with the ferryman in a side quest). It could just not be like i said i'm not 100% on that specific point. At the end it doesn't matter though because there's so much foreshadowing and symbolisms that shout clive is coming back that this alone doesn't make a significant difference even if it's not true.
This is the best game I’ve ever played, it reminded me why we love stories, to be better people and to build a better world. Thank you, Yoshi-P and Co.
one of the best , most solid FF games ever made, up there with the greats like 6 and 7. its the FF for its time and place. later today I will be starting NG+ and doing all the side quests this time
6 is very far ahead of 16 but since you skipped all the side quests I can understand why. I played every side quest and unlocked every item and it was extremely boring between main story moments. 6 is still my favorite.
Hope a dlc would come showing Leviathan. Maybe Leviathan could be the reason why Clice survived since he was not a complete "Mythos" without it and he did end up beside the ocean while seemingly petrifying.n😊
I got goosebumps when the Final Fantasy theme started at the end while they showed the book called "Final Fantasy". I haven't even played the game but man, this ending looks like a potential top 5 endings in the FF saga!
Been reading around after beating the game...are there really that few of us who interpreted the ending as Clive living and coming back to Jill? I thought the game was screaming it at me with both of them having wished on the star before the dawn came, and all that. Goes in hand pretty well with his character's purpose to both -live- and die on his own terms in the new world. I mean, if they wanted to stress the theme of sacrifice, seems weird they didn't make his death explicit. Completely petrified and turning to ash under the moon, while Metea fades during Jill's prayer. That would've hit.
Final Fantasy tells untold story through symbolism and people can interpret this ending however they want, but i also believe he made it and completed the Journal for Joshua, it also hinted in a sidequest that clive should write a book after he is finished. People who know how Final Fantasy story writing works can tell how the story canonically went.Clive alive, wrote Joshuas book, and the familie are the descendants. Also Japan loves the descendant tropes and lookalike stuff, its a no brainer just alone by this for me, know the Writers and culture and you don't second guess. Jill expected the worst but when the dawn came, it told (me) her wish came through and clive came back, you can see she stops crying and reacts with hope.
Pretty sure he lived but the fact theres no 100% confirmation is what has most of us down. Game would have been perfect if hes on a boat coming back and Jill+Torgal see him and go running up to it why we didnt get a happy ending like that instead of the open ended one is beyond me especially investing so much time into these characters.
@@rarzarbex9172 Tbh. i dislike open endings with no closure, at least do obvious hints goddamit. Even tho i understand JRPG games, is it too much to ask for once a clear happy ending for our protagonists :( But alas... most of the themes of FF is about Nihilism, suffering and acceptance and the will to move on.
@@Ilidan9 Thats true but if he did truly die (which I dont think he did) it would go against his entire character arc to begin with in terms of living instead of sacrificing oneself and "not breaking promises" it would have been dumb if that were the case but my problem is them not showing it explicitely and we have people racking there brains around it I mean they killed of joshua, deon, theodore, elwin, the commander, all the lords and so many people in this game just show us a 1 minute cutscene at the end I just hope yoshi P confirms it also because its not looking like we'll get a DLC anytime soon if at all anyway.
Jap dev/story writers cant just write a proper ending instead we have to guess ourselves with obscure refs....oh look the hero survived but he lost his memories or he survived but he lost his body in the process and is aetherial or there was a fart in the wind that smelled like the hero aka he's alive somewhere.
Clive lived obviously. He was just exhausted so he passed out. The curse also only stopped at his left hand. His voice was also used during the starting and ending narration. No one else could have known the entire story but him and we can see that the book was finished and loved by future generations. If you did all the sidequests, all of these would make sense. He lived and went on to have a happy life with Jill. ❤️
You guys really can't handle the idea of a tragic heroic sacrifice huh? Clive is dead, Metia died because Jill's wish will no longer be fulfilled. Her saying that she knows Clive will come back to her like the rising sun is how she FEELS. It's not literal for gods sake. Why is everyone taking what she says literally? The impact of Clive's sacrifice is even more potent after it, as well as his promise to return, obviously. Also completely ignores the symbology of the birth of the first free child in contrast to Clive's sacrifical death which brings about a new world. Narration by dead characters is common in media.
@@markonnen heroic sacrifice, but ambiguous ending? no ones interpretation is right. the writers know, will they clear up the ending? hope so. i want my clive and jill wedding. and why is he narrating if he didnt survive? he wrote final fantasy and is the chronicler
I like to think Clive throwing his sword in that final fight was a shout out to everyone that saved their weapons for their ninja to throw in Final Fantasy 4 and 6.
Everyone is talking about Clive staying alive, but there's a high chance that he simply died here. During the whole game it's made clear that the world is unfair and unforgiving. It also was implied that the world he was building wasn't meant for him, or anyone currently living for that matter, but for the generations after to build on. He set the foundations, and that was where Clive's journey ended, and there's nothing wrong with that. His story was complete. He created a world where people can live and die on their own terms, and he died on his.
The main thrust of his entire relationship with Cid is that Cid was wrong, in that people shouldn't have to die on their own terms, they should live on their own terms.
I didn’t love or hate the ending. I’m not a huge fan of ambiguous endings but it was still powerful. Jill and Gav’s tears really made me get watery eyed.
I like it but honestly it is annoying how every single time you dodge it goes into the slomo dash, that's why I took it off and started to like the precision dodge more.
From what i checked there won't be a dlc for this but things may change in the future. I will be more happy if they actually showed clive and johsua survive rather than showing us some elements that they might survived. Overall was a good game.
@@alejandroo4160 yup agree with you because they did the dlc for final fantasy 15 once they sales target have been reached. But they did it after 2 years i think so. If we want to play the dlc then we will have to wait for 2 years i guess.
53:00 for Ultimalius When you realize you voice act as Diavolo in the VG version of JoJo5 but gets a Golden Experienced by Giorno who voiced by Zidane.
I had a feeling the ending would devastate me -- I'd been getting death flags the past 10 hours of the game -- but goddamn. I managed to avoid more than a few tears until the scene on the beach, and then it all kind of came crashing down that not only had he lost Joshua (again), but Clive was likely going to die as well after EVERYTHING he had been through. Though it was Ultima's goal that he shattered emotionally to be a strong vessel... christ. He didn't have to shatter the entire playerbase as well.
I hated Joshua's death. I never loved a character like this before, I couldn't accept his death, so once I saw him dead, I turned the game off and went to see the end here, not because I cared about the ending, but because I wanted to see if it was really the end of Joshua, I cried so much and I don't think i'll get over it anytime soon
I finally realized he lived. Clive never died on the beach he passed out and only his hand turned to stone all other eikons disappeared he did not. He ended up writing the book for his brother to honor him. So that means those are his descendant kids. I bet ya any money that older woman is their kid.
@@KamiroYeager Wrong, the crystals' curse requires magic to spread, and as magic no longer exists the petrification can only advance as far as his wrist. It is very, very strongly implied that Clive lives; the title of the book in the epilogue being 'Final Fantasy,' the pen name that was used by its author, and the story the brothers are recounting being the same one told to Clive by his uncle all suggest as much.
Very few games have moved me as much as this game. What an epic story and ending. Many insightful morals and questions found within the story and even in the side quests. I believe both Joshua and Clive survived. My belief is based on the following: 1) It seems Clive Heals Joshua toward the end and even the book has his name as the writer, even if there are things he may not have known he could have gathered information from others. 2) The side quests with Hypocrates one telling Clive he should one day put down sword for quill and the other him saying that Joshua would make a great scholar or writer. 3) The promise of Clive returning to Jill and Jill saying he would return to him at the dawn in the story if I am not mistaken. All these things to me align in making it possible that they both survived. As for Dion, it seems less probable though there is no certainty he died either. I can understand and apprecciate the creators and writers wanting to leave an ending up to debate and for us to talk about and speculate but it is a low punch as well hahaha. I really want to know what happened to the last 3 heroes. Anyways, a masterpiece of a game for sure. Only FF9, X and Life is strange moved me this much and made me shed a tear that I can recall. Let me know if you guys agree or not, its nice to read more opinions and discussion. I feel the creators wanted us to do that, to fill the void this ending can leave us with. Greatest game thus far maybe.
So... In conclusion.. Clive sacrificed his life to free humanity from being controlled by Ultima, i didnt expect to see rain on my eyes seeing Torgal howl at the moon🥲
clive killed and steal ultimas power. He uses that power to save joshua(who probably survived and wrote that book) and destroyed the last mothercrystal(the origin) and remove all of magic in the world. He then gets into the beach and the curse starts to take effect which ultimately leads to his death.
My shitpost head canon is that clive unintentionally used his new phoenix powers to bring Joshua back to life but then gets distracted by the crystal and burns him to a crisp anyways
1:02:48 well... for now, its the only way I can hear this song. It has the same vibe than "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" from FF14. I marked so when I come back I can easily find it. 🤷♂️ FF16 is a masterpiece! 👏👏👏👏👏
@seekinpeekin no not yet. As of right now the only “real” ways of listening to this beautiful ost is through the digital soundtrack that comes with the digital deluxe edition of the game.
@@seekinpeekinnot even shazam can find it's name. But the melody is almost the same as the instrumental song called "Lunar Serenade" played when Clive and Jill are looking to the moon right at the start of the game.
He probably is alive, the scene will jill smiling proves it, plus add all the times Jill says Clive will always come back for her, and I don’t see how he doesn’t survive, it honestly wouldn’t make sense with all the hints they gave throughout the story
@@id1550agreed, too many hints lmao, side quests, those symbolism. And if you know and played many ff games, those aren't normal words or symbol... Those have meaning... There's too much hints that conclude if Clive's alive
Yeah, I mean, like an important theme of the final part of the game is that self-sacrifice is not cool, if they just made him die it would suck from a writing stand-point, like legit bad, you can't have a message and then go against it, that's not how writing is supposed to work And i frankly don't understand the point of this open ending, unless they're gonna set up some DLCs it feels like a decision pushed from above, you want a tragic ending? Go for it and show him dying, instead the official statement from SE is that the fate of Clive is unknown
@@mrsneedleton3254 I know right.... They're genius writers and know what they done with those hints... But this ending is sort kind of perfect to give us how Jill's feeling to Clive. But I hate it because they gave us unclear information about Clive's fate. And also I agree about you, since that beach side with Jill, many characters in this game told Clive to take care of himself, and even Joshua punched him 😂 Clive always bring a world's fate in his hand, he always wanted to save the world by himself, don't know that everyone around him is always ready to help him. That's why, if Clive's dead. What was that line "Save yourself" for? Clive said a lot of promises that he will stay alive, and if he dies... It implicit that Clive doesn't have character development for 5 years 💀 but I forgot it's FF after all, I'm not surprised if they do the same with other ff, like Tidus or Noctis that died in the end of the game, but got resurrected in DLC and live happily with their lover
2 things to bear in mind: 1. CBU3 is super strict about "If a character dies on-screen and their spirit is gone, they stay dead." 2. Fakeout deaths are another thing they're a fan of. If there's no body/death scene of their body disintegrating, then the character likely isn't dead.
On my second play through on NG+ and I’m catching all kinds of details that missed on the first time. This is the difficulty the game should’ve been from the start which was one of my gripes about the game
Same. I get they wanted to make sure the game was super accessible for everyone but the standard difficulty was just way to easy and didn't allow their combat to really shine
this aint dark souls lmao, the combat shines enough with how it is now, why would you want it to be more difficult? play any souls game if you want difficulty
Clive to Jill before Final Battle: "I'll be back. I promise." Later.. "Even if it means the end of me" Beautiful ending, just tragic it ended this way.
I just wanted ONE ending that isn’t a breeding ground for conspiracy theories. I’ve never cared so much for a game story and for it to end so open ended just frustrates me.
I find it such strong storytelling when Ultima went from calling "us" and referring itself in third person, to it declaring and talking in first person. While clive went from first, to third person. Especially seeing how cold it was from ultima and how beautyfull and warm it was from clive. No pun intended. But this story kept me at the edge of my seat all the time. From beginning to end. Finally something worth being called a Final Fantasy again! 👏👏👏
The ending is absolutely the best ending in video game history. Believe me when I say that I NEVER cried in a video game in all my life, and I’m also a cold hearted person, but this time…I just burst into tears. Thank you, Square Enix.
How was it the best ending lol. Games like these you want the best endings in terms of the protagonist firmly 100% being alive while I think Clive lived after investing 40+hours into this game I wish they were more resolute in it... Like come on great game but that ending just ruins it in terms of the indifference.
You didn't cry when Dom did the thing in Gears of War 3 ? That game made grown men everywhere weep 😂 Also the thing with doms wife in gears of war 2 😅 Those 2 moments should easily be in anyone's top 10 saddest video game moments ever For some reason I thought the very end of ff15 was more sad This one was heartbreaking, especially during cid and joshuas death, and the end with clive is really sad But for some reason ff15 was more sad to me , both noctis and clive are similar heroes in a way tho
@@mako3197idk anyone who's hating besides 40 year old basement dwellers that still wanna play turn based games and haven't grown up or changed their mentality of the world since high-school 😂😅 and their opinions are irrelevant/ in the minority , this game was a top 3 or top 5 final fantasy game tbh
Did we get a conclusion to the orphan girl’s story? We know Terence was sent to care for her, but they both deserved to be shown living peacefully. She was literally mistreated the whole game, we should have seen her happy.
Joshua is for sure dead since the Phoenix can't ressurect people. Knowing this, Clive had to have survived in order to write the "final fantasy" book at the end. Here's some things that support this. - Harpocrates gave Clive a quill at the end of his questline and he hoped that Clive would one day hang up his sword and instead pick up the quill to write about his experiences. - No one would have tried to use Joshua's name besides Clive. If anything, they probably would've tried to use Clive's name. - Joshua wouldn't have wrote the book before he died. Nothing indicated that he was writing a book during his travels, and neither he nor anyone else would have known about the "final fantasy" phrase Clive told Ultima. - The entire game Clive was sacrificing himself for the sake of others. Many of the side characters wished for him to finally be able to save himself. All of this points to Clive surviving, at least long enough to get all of his thoughts into writing. What he actually did or how long he survived is anyone's guess. Maybe he actually left the twins along with Jill like how he promised in her final side quest (that's my headcanon). Anyways, I really loved this game and its characters. Props to CBU 3 for making such a memorable experience
The world you seek is but a fantasy! The only fantasy here is yours. And we shall be its final witness! Love the link to the saga name being Final Fantasy.
I started tearing up when the ending music played, and when Clive said “Can you see it too…. Jill?” I started to cry. But when Torgal started howling, I bursted into ugly man tears…😢
![[4K60ᶠᵖˢ] EVERY FINAL BOSS in FINAL FANTASY SERIES (1988-2023) FINAL FANTASY XVI 2023](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qGBssgrSOHk/mqdefault.jpg)
Nobody talks about him but Dion was an absolute MVP. Still managed to put up a fight with a god despite having most of his powers taken and permitted Clive and Joshua to kill Ultima. No wonder Joshua trusted him the most out of everyone. He really carried the empire’s legacy on his back and honestly made it as my second favorite dragoon in the entire series with his poignant story and the absolute cinema his fights were.
Bahamut was the mvp I said fighting him was even harder then fighting ultima he had way more power and if had that power he could whooped ultimas ass easy
lowkey had to pause the game to shed a tear for Dion.. He would've been a great king
@@Sukuna-sama4He never came back to collect that wild wyvern tale from harpocratys 😢.
@@Sukuna-sama4dion and cid were the absolute goats. Also barnabas with his crazy voicelines, rlly enjoyed him as a villain
@@Stanzbey69 The whole cast was fantastic, for the first time in a FF game I enjoyed all the characters and none of them were overly annoying lol.
Clive became my favorite protagonist of this entire saga. He started out as someone full of hatred for the betrayals and losses of his loved ones and ended up as someone who was warm and protective of others. incredible character and incredible VA.
I know I'm going to get alot hate for this but I found Clive boring and very 2 dimensional.
And alot of his decisions I find odd, like he goes all out his way to save Joshua, but then he's fine when he goes alone or to fight Odin in that one mission on the boat, like you spent over 15 years looking for him so now reunited naturally you would be by his side at all times during any danger. I felt he only really cared for his close ones when they got hurt or died.
I found younger Clive significantly better at start of the game imo
@@bungifish2227clive pre time skip feels really fresh from other ff protagonist
Probably my favorite FF protagonist as well, out of the many FF games I've played! (6, 7, Crisis Core, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13 Trilogy, 15 and 16)
Clive is just Cecil at home. Change my mind.
@@bungifish2227 You guys never like anything and just want to critize when find someone truly liking and being happy for something, that's very annoying
"We fight. We survive. We endure. We don't need a reason. We are imperfect creatures. When we stumble, we reach for a shoulder to lean on. When we fall, we stand back up. We see the horizon ever out of reach and still we march on...certain the answers lie just beyond it. Because that is our way."
I love the themes of 'humanity vs gods' and 'free will vs fate' and how Clive's character is the purest embodiment of human will and emotion. Such an incredible character.
I liked it but ultima just did not do it for me man was boring as all hell like if they made him more like the antispirals from guren lagann or something like that because golly was he boring
@@BigBoyGlassesThat is because Ultima wasn't human, he was a greedy sociopath who was afraid of dying. So it makes sense that a dude who cares only cares for himself would be a miserable boring pos, lol.
@@BigBoyGlasses thats the whole point lmao, he has no "will" or conciousness/personality like a human, he is a god that only goes by one thing,
@ereyes6718 he was badly executed compared to sephorith
This monologue was epic. I haven't had a game make me feel quite like that before. I had to remind myself this is a video game and Clive isn't Jesus Christ returning.
I honestly thought by the end it would just be Clive and Joshua vs Ultima, so it makes me really happy that Dion got this far and helped form Tri-Disaster. Such an epic and memorable moment, he really lived up to the title of Bahamut.
the Tri-Disaster was quite epic. Even moreso if it had WORKED lol
Brothers and step brother
Seeing Gav cry at the end when saying "Its what they both wanted" completely broke me. By the time i heard Torgal howling, i was a complete mess. Its been a long time since a game has made me cry like this.
You must be very young or don't read a lot.
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 Stupid take. Not everyone cries all the time, regardless of age.
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203you must be very ignorant and closed minded.
I didn’t even like Gav but that broke me
Just finished the game and ended up bawling my eyes out for 15 minutes. The mini flashback to Clive and Joshua's childhood, and that last scene with Torgal and Jill looking towards the sunrise both fucking killed me. It's been a long time since any kind of media has evoked these kinds of emotions from me. 10/10. I'm so glad I played this game. Utter perfection.
Idk if you played xiv but that game messed me up too. Specifically shadowbringers.
@@Zaque-TV Oh definitely. Shadowbringers and Endwalker messed me tf up. Those 2 expansions are still the peak of FF for me.
I know me too 😢
@Zaque-TV is xiv that good? I keep hearing how intense the story is. I will have to play it, it would seem!
@@RedThr3e XIV is excellent. Despite its dated graphics, the storytelling and character development, including both protagonists and antagonists, are incredibly well-crafted. Although the early 2.0 story was rather dull, it proves to be truly worthwhile by the end. If the perfect score is 10, I'd give XIV a 9.5, and XVI an 8.
I'm so glad that 1: Gav didn't die or betray you, and 2: Byron didn't die or betray you. Byron initially seemed to me like a character who would do anything, even sell out his own family, to maintain his comfort. But then he literally spends himself into destitution for the cause, and all with a smile and a hearty laugh. And the fact that Clive shows genuine affection for Gav as a brother-in-arms is incredibly touching.
Just...the ENTIRE leading cast, you either love, or you love to hate them. It's awesome.
EDIT: And you CANNOT tell me that Clive's final punch to Ultima was NOT inspired by Capcom's "Ashura's Wrath." When I saw that, I was like "Punching God in the face so hard it kills him because he brought grief to your loved ones? YEEEEES!"
Oh dude that’s the most BLATANT Asura’s Wrath reference but they’re sprinkled throughout the game which made me smile so much!
The falling section of the Titan lost fight is just the beginning of Asura’s Wrath and then he fucking Strider kicks Titan! This game wears its references with PRIDE!
Clive's final punch reminded me more about the gurren lagann ending in the film
R.I.P. Dion Lesage,
One of Final Fantasy’s best characters ever created in the franchise, in recent times.
Bravo 👏.
The way Dion said he's not asking for acceptance, only forgiveness while interposing himself between Ultima and Clive and Joshua with the intent of sacrificing himself to atone for nearly obliterating the planet gave me goosebumps. He carried a huge chunk of this game on his back and I'm not at all convinced he's dead. I hope to see him in a future DLC or expansion pack because he arguably had the strongest character arc in the game and has the most potential out of all the characters.
Lol nah, Clive has the most potential, but dion other than one thing was a bad ass
@@abagofchipzlol3667other than what?
I’m there with you. I can see him alive and reuniting with Terrence
Something small I really like during the final clash between Clive and Ultima is that Clive uses the names of the Eikons when summoning their power while Ultima just calls upon the element as if not acknowledging them as more then tools
That’s a really nice small touch that I love
"The Only Fantasy is here is yours, and We Shall be It's Final witness"
The Final Fantasy 😌
I'm just glad there's no "It's Ifrit-ing time"
Bravo Yoshida.
A fantastic way to write a story as if we’re reading one to children.
Man i got chillz when clive said “it’s eikon time”
The Clive/Joshua flashback absolutely KILLED ME. I was in tears. Then I couldn’t return home to my baby Jill. Another wave of tears. The ending was so intensely sad, I loved it. Any one else notice similarities between Clive and Ultima’s final fight and the final fight between Simon and The Spiral from Gurren Lagan? Especially the ending with the punch, seemed straight from the anime lol loved it.
"The only *fantasy* here is yours. And we shall be its *final* witness!" This line is proof that Clive didn't die on that beach and went on to write the 'Final Fantasy' book shown in the epilogue, using his brother's name as a way of honoring his memory.
Clive dies
@@farmsalot1233 He's the only character who could've come up with that title because it's based on what he said to Ultima while no one else was around to hear it. Unless you want to make the claim that Joshua somehow overheard their conversation despite being dead at the time.
But go on, then, let's hear your explanation of the ending, I will enjoy shooting it down.
@@dr_feelgood1902deleted my reply because you're probably right lol, but if Joshua was alive I could have seen him knowing, but Clive probably survived
@@Tatssus You shouldn't have deleted it, Joshua does talk to Clive during the battle and that could be how he overheard that line, but then a lot of characters are heard during that scene so it might not mean anything. It's just that we actually get to see Clive survive long enough to get washed ashore, while Joshua isn't seen again, so it's easier to assume Clive survived. Now, if they had washed up on that beach together that would be a different story.
Ultima's power is too great. Clive did an infinity gauntlet snap sadly.
Seeing quite a few peoples takes on what the ending meant made me look into things a bit more myself. I had originally thought Clive died and felt that was just extremely hollow without fully understanding why. After reading a lot here and reading some of the ATL logs, I think I’ve got a bit of a better grasp on things than I did before.
Starting off: I wanna debunk the idea that the children at the end only could have known “The Saint and the Sectary” because one of the Rosfields told it to them. No. The ATL entry states that it is “A beloved Valisthean fable” which means that basically everyone knew of it, so it’s likely that the kids had heard the story from their parents or a book or something assuming they’re not Rosfield descendants, otherwise they would absolutely have heard this tale because of their connection to Clive and Byron and such.
Now on to my take: I do indeed believe that Clive survived. The leading theory that people seem to have supporting his death is the fact that when he washed up on the beach, his hand had turned to stone and thus they concluded “He must be dying then”. While true, the crystals curse will kill someone if they use too much magic, no one really takes into account that aether needs to be actively channeled for that process to occur. What’s more is that it is stated that the more aether channeled, the more someone will suffer the effects of the curse. Bigger spells and abilities, bigger spread. Clive was never immune I don’t believe, rather he was just EXTREMELY resistant to it. Clive uses Eikonic abilities, magic, semi-primes, and full primes numerous times throughout the game and only NOW does he suffer any adverse affects, especially after absorbing Ultima and using his powers to destroy Origin, something any other ordinary Bearer or Dominate would INSTANTLY die from while even so much as attempting to use his powers, I’m certain, given that he’s the creator of almost everything in the world. Once Origin and Ultima were defeated and magic was seemingly eliminated, there would be no way to channel any more aether, thus his curse would not spread. Considering it was Ultima that gave the world magic and crystals and Eikons, I think it’s safe to say that they would disappear after his death, especially if such things are considered to be fairy tales in the future.
After he absorbs Ultima, he does state that his power is “too much for his body to handle.” Again, keep in mind he’s never had any major adverse affects from using any of the Eikon abilities or magic up until now, despite having 8 in him. I believe that he reacts this way because those same adverse affects are probably newer to him now that he has an entity that can actually cause these affects within him, though to be fair this is my own speculation, but one rooted in what we already know.
Another thing: Joshua, regardless of anything, does not survive, or at the very least is highly unlikely to have survived. He states himself that wounds can be mended by the Phoenix, but the spirit needs to heal on its own. When he dies in origin, it takes a while before Clive comes back and heals the wound, so Joshua is already long past dead at that point with no “spirit” left. That and the giant gash in his chest. If that wasn’t enough, no one in the group would fear dying if the Phoenix could outright resurrect the dead. So, Joshua is well past saving I believe.
One thing that some have talked about is Metia. Some say that the disappearance of Metia is symbolic of Clive’s death or that Clive himself removed it. I think that in a world with magic and gods, there genuinely could be a star that takes wishes and moves them to the moon to be granted. With a world that has no magic however, it would probably make sense that this potentially magic entity capable of helping wishes come true would also cease to exist. This is also speculation.
Something else worth noting: Clive says that he can tell Jill is still alive when she’s captured is because he can feel her presence or her Eikon’s aether, or something to the affect. Assuming this wasn’t a one off, perhaps Jill could sense Clive was still alive as well and that is why she smiled at the end. Though I won’t get into the symbolism or foreshadowing (such as Clive using Joshua’s name as a pen name similarly to how he used Cid’s name as a title and the comparison of Clive and the dawn as said by Jill) too much as others have done that and I wanted to mainly throw out some facts that the game and ATL clearly state themselves.
Last thing I feel I should note: The title of the book “Final Fantasy by ‘Joshua Rosfield’” is one that only Clive would have really been able to come up with. Something else that people don’t give too much credit to is the fact that ONLY Clive would have known about those words he said to Ultima. If he had died, they would have been taken to the grave. It’s possible that someone else could have *maybe* come up with a similar title if they had the same thought process as Clive had, but no one else would have used Joshua’s name, and it couldn’t have been him since we established that he’s 100% dead. Harpocrates wouldn’t have used Joshua’s name, I’m sure, nor Vivian. *Maybe* they would’ve used Clive’s instead, but it wasn’t Clive’s name on the book.
I mainly made this borderline essay because everyone’s discussing or arguing on Clive’s fate and I wanted to throw my hat in as I remembered a few things of my own that no one brought up or considered too deeply and threw them in as well. I haven’t read the entirety of the ATL, just everything I thought would be relevant. There may be more to prove or disprove what I’ve said, but what I *have* seen from the ATL and the symbolism surrounding it all can in no way convince me that Clive did not survive. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk
Post “FF” mode playthrough edit: Watching the cutscene again in my final fantasy mode play through, the curse is a gradual process, so there’s that. With how quickly it took Clive’s hand though (mere seconds) I would’ve expected it to be shown going further up his arm like other have pointed out. I find it a little weird though that his fingers were taken and that was it during his whole fall and washing up on that beach. The camera quickly moves on from that, so of course, interpretation is king here for now.
I did make the assumption that perhaps Jill could feel his Eikon’s presence or something to the effect. This would probably be impossible as he used Ultimas power to get rid of magic and Eikons, though it’s also shown that he seemingly relinquished his power, so did magic immediately fade? Was it his choice to get rid of his own abilities? Who knows honestly.
And finally quick note: Jill’s expression at the end tells me “relief” more than anything. That’s all from me again (maybe)
That's a really good assessment.
Nice writeup, agree with a lot of what you said but I think you might have Clive's final moments wrong. I don't think that magic and the eikons would necessarily have disappeared just because Ultima died, otherwise the events with Clive using the power of the phoenix directly afterwards most likely couldn't have happened.
The impression I got from Clive's dialogue after absorbing Ultima's power was that he was going to use all the aether gathered to instead revitalise the land rather than making a new world, as well as making magic, crystals and the eikons disappear as they were the cause of the blight.
It's mentioned several times that casting such a large spell would be impossible without a strong enough body (as you mentioned, Clive is capable of using magic while being barely effected by the curse) and, even though Clive is able to cast it, it causes the curse to very rapidly consume him.
Maybe dead, maybe not, I believe the choice to not show him fully turning to stone was intentionally to leave it open. I like your ideas on Clive passing forward Joshua's memoirs on the events that happened being the same as his carrying Cid's name as well, but pretty certain that the world is "normal" in the secret ending thanks to Clive casting a spell using all of the land's aether.
And if he is indeed dead at the end, I personally think that shouldn't be taken as a hollow ending; he ultimately gave his life casting a spell that would bring Cid's dream to life - a world where people can live as they choose because they are all equals.
Edit: One quick edit, I don't remember where specifically but at one point Clive does directly state that even the Phoenix can't bring people back from the dead, so you're correct there too.
@@capnneckbeard847 I mean, of course magic wouldn’t immediately be gone cause Clive was able to still use magic after Ultima died.
Yes, it was left ambiguous on purpose, but for me it doesn’t change the fact that one ending feels miles better than the other. The main issue I have with Clive’s potential death is that it feels like a disservice to him. Like, I was able to accept both Noct and Class 0 dying at the end of their respective games. It made sense and felt fitting (Though in Nocts case, the game’s ending would technically be considered the “bad” ending after the book came out). Here, I got the sense of “Well what was the point of those last few side quests I did with Jill and Harpocrates then? Were they just there to pull on the heart strings more? Nothing hinted to this outcome as far as I could tell. It just came out of the blue. Seems like a really damn cheap copout coming from the writers of Heavensward, *the expansion that almost every xiv player agrees has the best story.*” Given everything else I’ve read from comments, it doesn’t make much sense either.
To the point of the curse gradually taking over, I’d say that, as far as I could see in the cutscene, it hadn’t progressed, nor was it progressing, past his hand. Perhaps it could have progressed more off screen, but given everything else in the game, it looks like the affected areas of the curse just sort of appear. I don’t recall the game ever showing the spreading actively, just after it’s already spread. Especially with Kupa who was completely fine before the Titan fight and then *poof* stone. If the curse is supposed to be a creeping sort of spread, then the game didn’t do much of a good job showing or explaining that
Nice writeup but Clive is dead. Metia dying symbolically means the wish will no longer be fulfilled, unlike the last wish Jill made which came true when Metia was burning bright. After all how can a wish be fulfilled by a dead star? It's right there in the lyrics of the song that plays in the final scene:
"My half, my beacon and my hope
A sky of scattered tears
A thousand years apart
Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark
For your flame still burns inside me deep within my heart
Showing me, a new tomorrow, never too far
And when I cannot bear the pain, I look up to the sky and pray
And though our night is over you shall always remain, forever, my treasure, my star"
@@markonnen Assuming she didn’t make another wish immediately after Clive and the rest left. The Star going out definitely meant she couldn’t make a wish from that point on, but whose to say she didn’t already. Also, as much as it would make sense in a symbolic sense that the star going out means he died, that alone isn’t convincing enough. Symbolism can be taken in many ways by anyone. That’s partly why I tried not to use Jill’s endgame sidequest as evidence
100% Clive and Jill's descendants. The silver, black and blonde hair colors aside, the book aside, the dog aside, notice what they mentioned before playing War of the Eikons. The Saint and the Sectary. The one brother doesn't want to play the antagonist Madu. This was the same play that Clive played with his Uncle Byron and always forced him to play Madu instead of Sir Crandall. With Rosaria in shambles, and its royalty lost, how would this story and tradition have passed on? Yet another of many pieces of evidence that Clive lived and has carried on the legacy of his favorite tale to his children, and their children's children.
Or he knocked up jill and she had kids and passed the stories down, she saw all the plays too after all 😅
As much as I like clive I think he should stay dead or it'll take away the impact of the story
But if enough fans ask for it knowing square Enix they'll give us a final fantasy 16 - part 2 with clive surviving or coming back to life 🤙
@@andrew-rn9ui I'm guessing you missed the Priceless side quest which actually has a full Clive and Jill cutscene? This quest 100% confirms he lives based on symbolism and foreshadowing. It makes the ending sunrise make sense. In it, Jill said quote "I realized that, no matter how terrible the night, the dawn would always come. That you would always come...for me. And you have. Again and again." That is why Torgal howls, a social call to packmates to help him find his way home and stops when the sun rises. It is also why Jill gasps and smiles at the sunrise, it was all foreshadowed in that quest. Notice too, that the torch near them is blazing strongly. Combine this with the star going out as a sign her wish for his return coming true. Only his hand gets petrified and stops at the wrist, and they never explicitly showed his whole body, which would have been far more emotional to watch him turn to stone. Many bearers continue living with petrified limbs. While you say him living ruins the impact of the story, I believe it is the exact opposite. If he died, every shred of dialogue that Clive has would be pointless. He wanted to make a world where everyone can LIVE on their own terms but never was allowed to live himself, only survived and killed. Jill tells him that he always saves others but the one person he needs to save is himself. He also promises to return to her and makes the dialogue of keeping promises. By killing him off, all of this development the narrative gives would be destroyed. The story is about hope no matter how dark things get. We as the viewer are supposed to empathize with Jill, believing he is dead...only to have hope once we see the sun rise. It's honestly incredible storytelling, that one gets a bad ending only if one misunderstands the meaning of the tale (and misses the side quests). This is also why Clive narrates the tale, and the end is narrated after showing Jill and Torgal waiting for him. His journey ends when he comes home.
Editing to mention that Joshua has to be dead and the book was written by Clive using Joshua as a pen name to give him a legacy to be remembered by, just as he did with Cid. It was Clive's left hand, not right that was petrified, so he could still have written it. This was also foreshadowed in a sidequest about how he intends to write his story after the journey is over and that he is the narrator in the beginning and end, right before we see the book.
@@ryukyuiansunflower No... Clive literally says that "My body cant handle ultimas power after all..." The red star going out was symbolic of Clive dying and that's why Jill started bawling. Clive is dead but Jill still ended up pregnant from the events on the Isle for "The Promise". Clive is right handed.
@@1ch1r1n I disagree, because that would ruin all the symbolism and foreshadowing given to us over the course of the entire narrative, and especially in the sidequest Priceless. But I already explained all the specifics to this in other response of this same thread and don't wish to type up a storm again, if you wish to look through the comments. Adding to it though, if he were to die, they easily and should have shown his whole body petrify. Would have been far more emotional for the viewer. Instead, they stopped at his hand, and bearers only continue to petrify due to frequent and forced use. Cid was fine for a long time with only his arm petrified because he kept using magic.
@@ryukyuiansunflower enjoy being wrong lmao
Dion redeemed himself and he truly believed it in his final moments as he fell. He is the only Dominant (besides Clive, Jill, and Joshua) to not drink Aether and be consumed wholly by it. He survived the fight against Ifrit and the Phoenix. All of the other Dominants lost control of their Eikons and became essentially empty vessels as the Gods just took over. I bring this up because Dion became Bahamut and still maintained control of himself rather than Bahamut taking over
Da hell, he merged with the mother crystal in his arc........and lost control after he lost his dad which made him lose control. No one else survived as they were slain right after so whats to say the other dominants couldnt do the same?
Ultima took a hold of his broken mind, and had him rage out on everything, he willingly didn’t give himself into aether, but he did merge with the mother crystal, or atleast Bahamit did
To be honest, everything was going as horribly as possible for Dion, so I can't quite blame him on the whole for everything that happened. I would have snapped far earlier than him tbh.
@@hopeinvoked1822 man’s was holdin it down for dear life
Workin double shifts fightin armies AND friggin Odin himself
Daddy on that bullshit all cause he under the dreadful level 4 magic spell called GAUK GAUK from dat disloyal bitch of a queen
His baby’s brotha demon possessed and a little brat to boot boy to get the fuggin throne and send it all to hell with a gleeful smile on his face
And to top it all off…..when my man bout to take care of the source itself……he accidentally kills daddy…..with his own weapon no less…….
Fug it,Nuke the planet 😂😂😂
Alas, i can't bring myself to care about gay characters.
Dude when the red star dimmed and the song quietly stopped…so sad. Such an amazing game and what an incredible finale. Thank you Yoshi P and Square Enix!
Hearing Cid at 44:10 was one of my favourite moments for me during that fight
It made it feel like he was watching you and cheering you on to win.
I liked how Ultima's dark blue Ifirit form with wings is kind of a callback to Griever from FFVIII.
I immediately broke down crying the second I saw Torgal sitting and watching out the window waiting for Clive 😭
Yep me too, didn't care about Jill but Torgal sitting there... nope lost it.
Joshua saying how Ultima is a being that comes from another world (referencing how summons and specially Ultima are powers seeked by our characters from other SE games to truly power up their abilities) is what a lot of the plot surrounding the Ultima from FF 16 comes from I think.
In other civilizations (Final Fantasy, BD, KH, etc) Ultima is always the most destructive power, but here they gave it a twist to give Ultima a body, mind and ambition (kind of like BD 2, but not quite there, since FF 16's Ultima is more omnious and a whole being).
I mean ultima has 2 bodies in FF 6 and 1 body in FF 7 and 8.
Theres also Ultima as last boss in FFT, and Ultima in FF14 (Ivalice raid collab) is implied as coming from other world/planet
@@tusharrathore6330 Yeah, it's just that in FF 7, they portrayed Ultima as a "monster", but I see what you meant.
I want to see how Ramza punched Ultima at her face
_Mickey using Ultima in KH3_
Xehanort: *"STOPZA!!"*
Ultima: "Am I a joke to you?"
FF16 Ultima: "L Honestly"
Clive: "You think you're funny huh?"
Asura would be proud of the final Punch here, and for Clive essentially doing the same thing he did (Saying screw you to the top God, and kill them so that humanity can thrive without the need for them).
Fighting for Freedom against your God! 💪👊💫
Punching the creator in the face with a face-melting, button-mashing QTE. Where have I seen that before? Man, this game really wears its influences on its sleeve. And I love it for that.
Asura’s Wrath definitely influenced that final fight.
Asura vs Charkvartin 😂
@@stairmasternem was about to say this lol
@@stairmasternem I say asura wrath was a influence for the WHOLE game tbh lol
or at least, for the primal fights
@@Vell-aah oh certainly influences the Eikon fights, meanwhile Berserk inspires the story and DMC inspires most combat.
Just another comment flowing in.
This FF will be remembered as both a modern turning point for the series and a classic.
It's impossible not to like it.
Couldn't put it better myself
You dropped this 🥇
That hasn’t stopped people from trying to say it’s not worthy of the title final fantasy sadly.
I doubt it honestly, I feel that FFXIII was the turning point in the saga and you can just notice it with this game that drinks from many of its mechanics.
Besides it is made for a casual audience, nothing innovative.
I dont like it
Followed Asura's Wrath storyline.
Its better off without magick and summons. Its better off without Mantra and monsters.
Looking at the ending of the story... not seeing any monsters. With the source of magic cut off, all of them perished
And Joshua's Story book essentially being the same as Mithra telling the story of her father to the next generation of Children.
@@godzilla4189 That wasn't Joshua's book, it was Clive's, he's just using his brother's name either to honor him, or because he's still technically an outlaw and thus needs to hide his identity.
Man when Joshua was dead at the end I cried for the first time in like 20 years I’m a convicted felon 31 years old shit just crushed me man.
God damn lol
Imagine being a convicted felon
This is just perfection at this point. This whole game is beyond words incredible.
Meh, just another tryhard from Square Enix.
@@MinarrealMeh just another smoothbrain contrarian on the internet
@@picklocsecond half kinda a slog ngl
This was a very good Final Fantasy indeed. FF15 looks even shittier now compared to FF16. :D But i hope they don't want Yoshida to Produce FF17 as well. FF14 needs him. FF14 was lacking a bit of everything since Yoshida was to busy for FF14.
@@magus9180 After the 7 Remake gets fully completed it's X-3 that'll be next. I can't recall if it was Kitase or Nomura, but one of them said the story was written and they just need to wait for the Remake to be done before they have the resources to be able to start development.
Man I just watched the whole game on multiple youtube accounts and this game is fuckin epic as hell. Definitely one of the best Final Fantasy's. These boss fights are OUTRAGEOUS. I think the craziest one was the Titan bossfight though. Ultima's fight even seemed a little disappointing compared to it lol. They really did it right with this FF, from the combat to the intricate story that didn't seem cheesy at all, they really delivered!
The game ends years later with Clive and Jill descendants. Jill’s wish worked after all besides Clive getting a stone hand.
Clive dies. Good riddance.
@@vorpalinferno9711 Context in the game says otherwise
@@vorpalinferno9711 Sound like one of those that didn't like the all white cast lol
@@vorpalinferno9711 🤡
@@vorpalinferno9711
Apparently you haven't played the game and so do i but that is very unprofessional of you.
When all else fails, punch them in the face as hard as you possibly can to end the fight. - Protagonists
And Embody the True Power and Potential of The Human Being in the Name of Freedom against your God.
Giving a punchline, like "I'm going to break this illusion of yours" before actually breaking their facial bones is even better. Touma vibes.
Asura would be please. He to punch a god to death
Giant fights will always remain as one of the coolest things in history.
Really hope hat clive didnt die and return to jill. The focus on the moon, Metia and jills smile at the rising dawn along with her prior dialogue at the flower fields points to him being alive. We need the DLC.
Yep that’s what happened. But the game has to be successful to get DLC. And pay close attention to the kids and mother, notice the mom has a similar hair?
The fact that he also wasn't shown actually dying, just his arm petrifying.
But I really don't like it. I think they should just embrace a happily ever after, saccharine and all.
@@ZakjuhThat’s Jrpgs for us man. I had to play the game to truly understand the ending.
@@darthacezactually the game already has good reviews
@@thanoskitsos5710 I know 🙂
But it’s the sales I am worrying about.
But i don’t think I need to worry because copies are sold out already.
Fuck man, I rlly wanted to see Clive and Jill rebuilding their fallen kingdom in the ending.
Don't worry. Clive finally return and building his kingdom back. Jill become the queen while Mid being his other waifu.
Man this game is really fantasitic. It is my first time to watch a whole FF game and it took me 3 days to completely watch . I never thought the game would be this epic.
Now play it
A fellow Joshua to another fellow Joshua, may you rest in peace Joshua.
I cried for an hour after I finished this I was sad for Joshua I was heart broken for Jill my wife hugged me to sleep lmao
i had to hug my pillow to sleep T-T
He didnt die
In the side quest before this with jill they said with each dawn clive will come back and in the end a dawn appears and jill stops crying and clive had only his arm frozen not his whole body
Yeah I watched my replay a few times he just passed out on the beach and lost his hand not even his arm. She cried cause the star went out but that's a symbol her wish was granted.
You got issues bruh
Till the end I hoped Joshua will live 😢 He was and still is my favourite character. I'm so devastated since I ended the game. Clive and Joshua had such a unique relationship 🥺 Since The Last Of Us and The Plague Tale Requiem, Final Fantasy XVI is a third game which made me cry so much 💔
Haters: XVI isn’t a real Final Fantasy!
*FF XVI meanwhile becomes the only game in the series where the story is actually a Final Fantasy*
Meanwhile ff XV: Am I joke to you ?
Yea literally "FINAL" (FANTASY)
@@WOOOOWWOWO but hey now Noctis can live is fantasy with lunafreya for ever
Wait am lost, what do you mean by that?
@@shedricklillard65 do you remember that when they died they meet and they live togheter their final fantasy (because their ff was to be happy togheter married)
I thought this villain was way better integrated than most others but also very similar in character to those of other games. His motives as a „god“ who just wanted to safe his people were understandable. He just had the will to survive. He didn’t foresee that consciousness and will would form within his creations and he literally became the same as those people he created who developed greediness. That’s also why Clive said during the fight: „we are equal, you’re not better than us“. Instead of working together with those who had faith in him (god), he abandoned the humans to fulfill his own greedy plan without feeling any compassion. Ultima is the reason people began doing their own thing in the first place because they felt left alone. I thought it was pretty cool and smart. But it’s just my opinion..
Also help for once we didn't get some ass pull like in most FF games when we suddenly get the "true final boss" I fucking hated that. Ultima being the true last boss really solidified his role as a good Villain in general not just in FF.
Why do you do quotation marks like that?
@@Xkrisar You mean for "god"? Because I think everyone has a different definition for what a god actually is and I dont want to offend someone who's actually believing in god :D I could also call him "alien with supernatural powers" or something lol...
@lelela2211 that's not what I mean. When you wwre quoting someone it looked off. You weren't using " " like for example you used „ " I just found it odd is all.
@@Xkrisar Ah, I got it now! :D English isn't my mothertongue. I'm german and we quote peoples speech like this :D Sorry for the confusion!
The most important side quests are "Priceless" along with "A Tail to Tell"
Both played will explain the meaning of the dawn seen end game and the book, written by cid rosfield.
"A Tail to Tell"
"when the day comes, I'l certainly have a lot to write about" is what clive replied to Haprocrates after his encouragement to pick up a pen.
Harpocrates is all-knowing as the game claims, but opting choosing to delve into the intimacy side of pheonix and ifrit(older brother), chances it's more likely Clive.
There's a point in the game where Joshua clearly stated that his eikon's power could never bring someone back to life.
I believe endings should be what the players choose for themselves as it's the current trend for recent games; completing all the necessary will give you the true ending.
In Priceless, Japanese language; Jill likens Clive as the dawn who will always come for her without a doubt, said that's the part she likes about him and she confessed to him.
Clive who loves his brother more than cid, should probably have higher chances that he would honor his brother's legacy.
But, endings are arbitrary nowadays, it's a gamer's pick. cheers!
You couldn't just explain it?
To add to all the ending discussion, one thing I see not brought up often enough, is that the developers were making conscious choices with their narrative devices and cutscene direction. And I'd like to trust that they were not frivolous and were meant to serve the story.
For example, the first thing you are presented with in the beginning of the game, on top of Clive's narration, is Metia and the moon. Metia being so curious, that when I first played the demo, I thought I finally had gotten some screen burn-in until Jill's first prayer told me it was intentional. They could have chosen a flame or a crystal, but they chose this, as if to subtley tell the players "hey, this weird thing is gonna be pretty important." And sure enough, throughout the whole game we're told this is indeed significant, specifically to Jill.
Following up on this, we come to the ending. When it comes to cutscene direction, Jill is the main focus. They want us to take what we know and interpret what's happening from Jill's perspective. Yes, Metia dims, but we're never actually told what that means. It's supposed to be shocking, for both Jill, and us, granted we're invested. It's frightening; we're losing faith in the uncertainty night brings. But this is followed by dawn.
Sunrise, a new tomorrow, could very well be interpreted as the coming of a new age. I've seen some say this symbolizes the new world Clive has created, and had Mid or Gav gone to comfort Jill, I would be in this camp too. But only Jill and Torgal were chosen for this scene. The storytellers want us to continue viewing this from Jill's perspective, and for Jill, sunrise means hope; it means Clive is coming for her.
Clive's death is ambiguous, his survival heavily supported, because the storytellers want us to feel the same hope and assurance Jill feels at the rise of dawn, after making us feel frightened in the dark.
I personally think as far as a love story goes, it's a beautiful note to end on. As far as an ending to the story as a whole, it lacks closure, which is where I think the discourse in the discussion is born from. If I had it my way, the credits would have served as a moment to dwell on this feeling, and the post-credits would have actually been something sweet like Clive finishing up writing Final Fantasy as Jill checks up on him, or revealing the narration to actually be him reading it to his kids. I see what they were going for though, showing us Clive's struggle was fruitful, albeit on the nose.
But hey, that ending song is pretty af, yeah? That's why I really keep coming back here. I need that OST yesterday.
Yes, this is largely how I saw things too. Combine the side quest content pointing signs (The quill, dawn being associated with Clive returning to Jill and the like) The idea of the star fading that then brought fear and worry to not only the characters but us, only for the sun to rise on the horizon is very much a good dramatic move.
I do honestly think the ending was kept ambiguous purely because there was always going to be a 'maybe' on post game content i.e a DLC. In keeping it ambiguous it left the door to remain open if it was going to happen - Clive is alive and well confirmed, go enjoy your adventure.
If not then - the ending is what you make of it, live or die its the interpretation of the individual player. Of course by seeding the idea that he is likely alive by placing the hints outside of the main quest (in side quests) it sort of gives the developers and writers more leeway than they had with the horribly railroaded story ending they had in FFXV - which again ultimately turned into a 'good' ending with the last DLC (which sadly was cancelled and released as a book).
The vast amount of callbacks to the series as a whole and the many amazing new things this entry did are absolutely stunning. I only hope we get a really good expansion someday that talks about what happens next and delves into Leviathan the lost.
The death of cid actually made me cry, and hearing him cheer on Clive made me cry even harder than before
This comment section has the absolute best in final fantasy fans and it delightful to read
It's very...... *divisive* 😅
Gav crying is what breaks me everytime 😭
Did anyone else see that in Origin the city below has what looks like a lot of modern buildings. We know that Ultima traveled from another world. Do we think there might be connection to somewhere else, another planet or timeline that destroyed itself with magic?
So basically "The creator" from final fantasy 4 after years.
Ultima been a villain in the world of Ivalice for long. His first game appearance was as the prime antagonist of Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions. Ultima is one of the Lucavi (FF12 summons) created by the Ascians. In FFT, he also takes over “vessels”, which is the protagonist’s twin sister…he always takes over vessel, the earliest known in lore is Saint Ajora.
If this is truly the end of Ultima, this game might take place after FFT, or even way after FFXIV. So it’s not weird to see ruins of modern cities in Origin. In the first place, that’s how it is in FFT as well which take place way after FFXII, there are buried ruins of lost advance civilization where FFXII took place in FFT.
Btw, when Ultima talk about his creations, I think he’s talking about Eikons, not about humans and the world. It fits the lore, considering Ivalice Union’s Eikons doesn’t exist in FFXII. It make sense if Eikons are created by Ultima after his betrayal to the Ascians…because that will when he and the other Lucavi are starting to take the mantle of gods. Logos might be Ultima’s language for Eikons, while Mythos might means vessel or chosen one.
@@AtriasNaradanIve played the game and he actually created humanity he even says so
@@AtriasNaradanthat said ultima in ivalice is female unless he can change sex
I was cool until Torgal started howling. That mixed with Jill crying was too much for me. Broke me down into tears..
Same. That, plus Gav crying really got me.
Just beat this game. Besides VII Remake/Rebirth, XVI is what helped introduce me to this series. Though I love the VII Remake Trilogy more (so far), I’m grateful that Clive, Joshua, and Jill’s story was my first standalone Final Fantasy. Unforgettable experience.
Just here to copy and paste a post that someone did one Reddit. Think this gives a good perspective on the endings meaning and the writing as a whole.
Okay so i gotta share my understanding and proof of the ending because i've seen so many rushed articles floating around that are straight up wrong and misinforming people about the ending of the game when it comes to clive. So here's why i think clive survived and came back to the hideout and jill:
-First and foremost, Jill, her reaction at daybreak. If you saw/played through the flower field cutscene you'd know that to her daybreak means clive coming back to her. That's a symbolism and symbolisms are ALWAYS meaningful in FF games. Also the sigh of relief she made and the smile wouldn't exist if she saw anyone except clive. Jill herself is the biggest proof that clive survive and came back for her. On that same scene when we see the sun rising you can clearly see a boat slowly approaching the hideout on the middle-left of the screen. It's between the 3 big rock. There's a small lit up object in the water that doesn't have a shadow similar to the rocks if you notice the water's surface next to it meaning it's not a rock itself. It looks like one of the small boats like the ones they used in the beginning of the arc when the last timeskip happened. Pair that with Jill's reaction and it's pretty obvious that this is Clive coming back. It can't be joshua because 1) jill wouldn't be relieved to see joshua instead of clive she'd just weep more to the confirmation of losing her SO and 2) because we know phoenix can not revive dead people, it can only mend physical injuries. Clive made a last ditch attempt to save his brother but it was futile.
-Secondly there's the metia star. The wishing star that jill always prays to for clive's return. It's disappearance meant that jill's wish was finally granted. She initially misunderstood and started crying but upon going outside and seeing him come back she probably understood what happened. Metia granted jill's wish to bring back clive and it disappeared in doing so. The existence of the star and the fact that it grants wishes has been known and foreshadowed since the very start of the game where Jill was as always praying to it for Clive's safe return.
-Thirdly let's look at clive himself when he was at the shore. Due to exhausting his aether he starter turning into stone shown by his fingertips. It was NOT progressing on its own and it only got his entire hand when he tried to use magic. His hand was petrified and it stopped there. We've seen Cid losing his hand to petrification and the progression stopped there. We also saw cid lose his entire ARM to the petrification and it still didn't kill him. It's obvious that clive just lost a hand. Then he passed out due to exhaustion. A DLC idea would probably be clive's struggle to get back to the hideout.
-The after credits scene. We see two kids looking like clive and joshua. Those are clearly clive's descendents waaaay into the future and the book is most likely written by clive himself. He told harpocrates (if i got the name right) in a side quest when he gave him a pen that someday he will write something. THIS BOOK is the something that clive decided to write and he credited it in the name of his brother so that his name would not be lost in time. The exact same way he used Cid's name after his death. He did it to honour his fallen brother just like he did it to honour Cid.
-Also the narrator of the story is clive. The beginning and the end it's always clive narrating the story making it seem as if he's retelling it to his kids or something. That just wouldn't exist if he died.
-Lastly, as a fellow redditor told me and is completely right, clive's whole development in the game is about learning to love himself and find meaning in life. This is shown when he said "no more breaking promises". Since then all the promises he made were out of love and genuineness. He promised he would keep joshua safe and that he would always come back to Jill. Breaking those promises would essentially break clive's entire development in the game and i doubt that's something any writer would do. This also serves as proof of why Joshua survived as well but besides this and an ambiguous healing scene there's not much proof to draw a conclusion. (credits to u/Rest_In_Pieces for bringing this to my attention)
Anyone that has played more than 1 FF game would know that clive is alive simply by the "when the dawn breaks , you always come back to me" jill line and the dawn in the ending. That symbolism is enough to know clive survived. Symbolisms aren't new in FF games and they are never unimportant.
In storytelling the conclusion isn't always spoon-fed. You have to pay attention to all the clues and symbolisms the game establishes to get the full picture by the time the credits drop especially in FF games where they love their symbolisms. This is exactly what they did here.
I hope i helped shed some light on the ending after my multiple hours of research (played the game and rewatched a ton of stuff multiple times to get the full picture of things).
Well said
This was very interesting to read and it definitely helped me understand the ending a bit better 😅
Not ready to let go of these characters yet. Such a beautiful game
This game have an amazing storyline.❤ Why did it failed? It should have received so much positive reviews. Clive has struggled so much to free the world from Ultima and his rules which lead only to destruction of the nations. At last our protagonist and his brother, Joshua and our MVP, Dion Lesage died(He's my most fav MVP in final fantasy series).😢 A bittersweet ending with a secret scene displaying that centuries have passed since Valisthea had gained her freedom from Ultima and from dominants, bearers, crystals, magick etc. forevermore only to become a fairytale for future generations.
53:00 - Sometimes you just gotta punch God in the face.
Asura: "I know a little bit about that..."
So many words to express how this game impacted me
Especially at the end
But I guess the pain and tears this game left me with will speak for itself
I’m glad I got to experience this treasure of a game
I just what the ones we loved in this game got to make it back
This ending will always be my soft spot
Such a heartwarming story of brotherhood, sacrifice, and human will.
The ending showed that humanity indeed prevailed without magic or rather their faith in magic, that which ultima gave. While it is the norm in final fantasy to overthrow god or religion, XVI shows a more grounded approach of what the outcome looks like. A simple family living without magic, and while its not as convenient as the prior world they find a way to solve problems, by evolution of technology and the like.
It has also shown a perspective of the bitterness to challenge a concept so wrong in modern times but considered right in the past. This game is in fact final fantasy... I can't believe my love for this franchise has been resurrected because I was so dissastified with XV incomplete story
Man, I break down when he says "I have always been proud..."
same i was a water fountain at that scene 😂
Incredible ending and the theme was so beautifully sung
Holy shit man, the vocals kicked in and I cried like crazy.
@@kirkshanghaime too i was like “what noooo he didn’t die”
This was such a powerful ending, especially with the Clive/Joshua scenes.
I'd like to hope both brothers survived, but in reality I think only Clive survived and made it back. Otherwise he wouldn't be narrating the game in past tense at the end.
Joshua contributed a lot to the success of the final fight also, getting Dion on side and being determined (even at the cost of his own life) to ensure the group's best chance of defeating Ultima. I do kinda wish though that the group at least tried to discuss a way in which Joshua could have released the Ultima fragment from his chest without it being fatal, should the time come. He had such an important role in the story especially later and having his presence at the end of the game may have changed the outcome a little. But then again we wouldn't have had that incredible VA from Clive when Joshua passed.
I like to think that Joshua survived as well and both brothers made it back. There's some lore in the Tomes hinting towards that ending, so unless confirmed otherwise, that'll be my truth!
@@FuyuYuki92no one survived, this game and Clive are already in my top 3 list but damn they did ma boy hella dirty. He suffered his whole life, in the end he died leaving his love and watching his brother die.
I gotta say this because i've been seeing people spew lies about the endings meaning everywhere be it comment sections or brainless articles by the likes of IGN,
anyone that unironically believes clive died is really grasping at straws. Just because FF16 is a dark game doesn't mean clive has to necessarily die.
Here's some points to consider:
-First and foremost, Jill, her reaction at daybreak. If you saw/played through the flower field cutscene you'd know that to her daybreak means clive coming back to her. That's a symbolism and symbolisms are ALWAYS meaningful in FF games. Also the sigh of relief she made and the smile wouldn't exist if she saw anyone except clive. Jill herself is the biggest proof that clive survive and came back for her. On that same scene when we see the sun rising you can clearly see a boat slowly approaching the hideout on the middle-left of the screen if you pause on 38:51. It's between the 3 rocks. Pair that with Jill's reaction and it's pretty obvious that this is Clive coming back. It can't be joshua because 1) jill wouldn't be relieved to see joshua instead of clive she'd just weep more to the confirmation of losing her SO and 2) because we know phoenix can not revive dead people, it can only mend physical injuries. Clive made a last ditch attempt to save his brother but it was futile.
-Secondly there's the metia star. The wishing star that jill always prays to for clive's return. It's disappearance meant that jill's wish was finally granted. She initially misunderstood and started crying but upon going outside and seeing him come back she probably understood what happened. Metia granted jill's wish to bring back clive and it disappeared in doing so. The existence of the star and the fact that it grants wishes has been known and foreshadowed since the very start of the game where Jill was as always praying to it for Clive's safe return.
-Thirdly let's look at clive himself when he was at the shore. Due to exhausting his aether he starter turning into stone shown by his fingertips. It was NOT progressing on its own and it only got his entire hand when he tried to use magic. His hand was petrified and it stopped there. We've seen Cid losing his hand to petrification and the progression stopped there. We also saw cid lose his entire ARM to the petrification and it still didn't kill him. It's obvious that clive just lost a hand. Then he passed out due to exhaustion. A DLC idea would probably be clive's struggle to get back to the hideout.
-The after credits scene. We see two kids looking like clive and joshua. Those are clearly clive's descendents waaaay into the future and the book is most likely written by clive himself. He told hypocratus in a side quest when he gave him a pen that someday he will write something. THIS BOOK is the something that clive decided to write and he credited it in the name of his brother so that his name would not be lost in time. The exact same way he used Cid's name after his death. He did it to honour his fallen brother just like he did it to honour Cid.
-Lastly, the narrator of the story is clive. The beginning and the end it's always clive narrating the story making it seem as if he's retelling it to his kids or something. That just wouldn't exist if he died.
Honestly i wrote way more than what is needed. Anyone that has played more than 1 FF game would know that clive is alive simply by the "when the dawn breaks , you come back to me" jill line and the dawn in the ending. That symbolism is enough to know clive survived. Symbolisms aren't new in FF games and they are never unimportant.
Anyway if your headcanon says clive died so be it but that will always be headcanon. Too much proof says clive is alive at the end. It really sucks that due to this game's action nature it has attracted a crowd that's not used to FF's storytelling style and they all miss the clues and symbolisms and proceed to spread misinformation. I kinda hope the devs themselves made it a bit more clear for players that are not long-time FF fans and can pick up on the clues.
Good fucking take, I do hope your right. Just finished the game today and really liked Clive. I would put him up there with Kratos as one of my favorite protagonists.
I hope DLC is planned, Torgal having Fenrirs power is never fully explained, it's partially explained in a quest but it also mentions that he's like Clive that can use different powers. Yet for some reason beyond that 1 cutscene he never turns again which is definitely suspect. Unless the devs forgot about that subplot which I doubt.
@@justacheesecake6232 It's not really about being right or wrong when it's this obvious. FFS there's a damn boat approaching the hideout when dawn comes (hello symbolism) and jill lets out a sigh of relief before she starts smiling. It can't be any more obvious. I guess it can be by outright showing him landing in the hideout but that sort of thing isn't frequent in games anymore. Most games do it exactly like that. Everything telling you he survived but not outright showing the MC.
@@alexmei21Really there was a boat. Did you take a screenshot?
@@darthacez I'm not 100% certain on the boat but even in this video if you pause on 1:07:14 on the left side between all the rock formations there's a small object that is lit up by the sun way in the distance. Now if you notice its reflection in the water you'll see that it's not a rock if you compare it with the formations near it. It looks like a glowing object that is in FRONT of a rock because we can see a full rock reflection behind it. From the distance it looks like one of the small ferry boats they used in the beginning of the last act (immediately after the last timeskip you see one with the ferryman in a side quest). It could just not be like i said i'm not 100% on that specific point.
At the end it doesn't matter though because there's so much foreshadowing and symbolisms that shout clive is coming back that this alone doesn't make a significant difference even if it's not true.
@@alexmei21 Thanks
This is the best game I’ve ever played, it reminded me why we love stories, to be better people and to build a better world.
Thank you, Yoshi-P and Co.
one of the best , most solid FF games ever made, up there with the greats like 6 and 7. its the FF for its time and place. later today I will be starting NG+ and doing all the side quests this time
6 is very far ahead of 16 but since you skipped all the side quests I can understand why. I played every side quest and unlocked every item and it was extremely boring between main story moments. 6 is still my favorite.
Hope a dlc would come showing Leviathan. Maybe Leviathan could be the reason why Clice survived since he was not a complete "Mythos" without it and he did end up beside the ocean while seemingly petrifying.n😊
I got goosebumps when the Final Fantasy theme started at the end while they showed the book called "Final Fantasy". I haven't even played the game but man, this ending looks like a potential top 5 endings in the FF saga!
Been reading around after beating the game...are there really that few of us who interpreted the ending as Clive living and coming back to Jill? I thought the game was screaming it at me with both of them having wished on the star before the dawn came, and all that. Goes in hand pretty well with his character's purpose to both -live- and die on his own terms in the new world. I mean, if they wanted to stress the theme of sacrifice, seems weird they didn't make his death explicit. Completely petrified and turning to ash under the moon, while Metea fades during Jill's prayer. That would've hit.
Final Fantasy tells untold story through symbolism and people can interpret this ending however they want, but i also believe he made it and completed the Journal for Joshua, it also hinted in a sidequest that clive should write a book after he is finished.
People who know how Final Fantasy story writing works can tell how the story canonically went.Clive alive, wrote Joshuas book, and the familie are the descendants. Also Japan loves the descendant tropes and lookalike stuff, its a no brainer just alone by this for me, know the Writers and culture and you don't second guess.
Jill expected the worst but when the dawn came, it told (me) her wish came through and clive came back, you can see she stops crying and reacts with hope.
Pretty sure he lived but the fact theres no 100% confirmation is what has most of us down. Game would have been perfect if hes on a boat coming back and Jill+Torgal see him and go running up to it why we didnt get a happy ending like that instead of the open ended one is beyond me especially investing so much time into these characters.
@@rarzarbex9172 Tbh. i dislike open endings with no closure, at least do obvious hints goddamit. Even tho i understand JRPG games, is it too much to ask for once a clear happy ending for our protagonists :(
But alas... most of the themes of FF is about Nihilism, suffering and acceptance and the will to move on.
@@Ilidan9 Thats true but if he did truly die (which I dont think he did) it would go against his entire character arc to begin with in terms of living instead of sacrificing oneself and "not breaking promises" it would have been dumb if that were the case but my problem is them not showing it explicitely and we have people racking there brains around it I mean they killed of joshua, deon, theodore, elwin, the commander, all the lords and so many people in this game just show us a 1 minute cutscene at the end I just hope yoshi P confirms it also because its not looking like we'll get a DLC anytime soon if at all anyway.
Jap dev/story writers cant just write a proper ending instead we have to guess ourselves with obscure refs....oh look the hero survived but he lost his memories or he survived but he lost his body in the process and is aetherial or there was a fart in the wind that smelled like the hero aka he's alive somewhere.
Clive lived obviously. He was just exhausted so he passed out. The curse also only stopped at his left hand. His voice was also used during the starting and ending narration. No one else could have known the entire story but him and we can see that the book was finished and loved by future generations.
If you did all the sidequests, all of these would make sense. He lived and went on to have a happy life with Jill. ❤️
it's sad people who skipped the side quests and didn't pay attention at the start of the game think hes dead
You guys really can't handle the idea of a tragic heroic sacrifice huh? Clive is dead, Metia died because Jill's wish will no longer be fulfilled. Her saying that she knows Clive will come back to her like the rising sun is how she FEELS. It's not literal for gods sake. Why is everyone taking what she says literally? The impact of Clive's sacrifice is even more potent after it, as well as his promise to return, obviously. Also completely ignores the symbology of the birth of the first free child in contrast to Clive's sacrifical death which brings about a new world. Narration by dead characters is common in media.
@@markonnen heroic sacrifice, but ambiguous ending? no ones interpretation is right. the writers know, will they clear up the ending? hope so. i want my clive and jill wedding. and why is he narrating if he didnt survive? he wrote final fantasy and is the chronicler
@@markonnenlol thank you… “they lived happily ever after” we must not be playing the same tragic story as them
Could you please explain more? Which side quest are you referring to?
This Final Fantasy XVI reminds me of the better parts of Final Fantasy XIII... especially Bhunivelze.
52:55 I will never forgive you, FOR MAKING MY DAUGHTER CRY!!!
I love the song with the FF prelude here 54:42. It gives me goosebumps and makes me want to cry every time. I choke up every time I hear it 😭😭😭❤
I like to think Clive throwing his sword in that final fight was a shout out to everyone that saved their weapons for their ninja to throw in Final Fantasy 4 and 6.
Everyone is talking about Clive staying alive, but there's a high chance that he simply died here. During the whole game it's made clear that the world is unfair and unforgiving. It also was implied that the world he was building wasn't meant for him, or anyone currently living for that matter, but for the generations after to build on. He set the foundations, and that was where Clive's journey ended, and there's nothing wrong with that. His story was complete. He created a world where people can live and die on their own terms, and he died on his.
The main thrust of his entire relationship with Cid is that Cid was wrong, in that people shouldn't have to die on their own terms, they should live on their own terms.
When Jill started to cry I cried with her
Same 👍
lmao me too. I think i spent the last 1 hrs of the game crying
I didn’t love or hate the ending. I’m not a huge fan of ambiguous endings but it was still powerful. Jill and Gav’s tears really made me get watery eyed.
Yep gav and Jill scene kinda killed me to. Unit then I didn't realy care emotionally atleast. But man this scene...
I love how the berserker ring is just too good to give up
I kept it up untill I got an item that gives +500 hp seeing as at level 47 I only had like 2500 or something that’s a super good upgrade
I like it but honestly it is annoying how every single time you dodge it goes into the slomo dash, that's why I took it off and started to like the precision dodge more.
From what i checked there won't be a dlc for this but things may change in the future. I will be more happy if they actually showed clive and johsua survive rather than showing us some elements that they might survived. Overall was a good game.
I’ve heard that if demand is good enough, they might do DLC and the like, Yoshi-P just wants us to enjoy the game as-is.
@@alejandroo4160 yup agree with you because they did the dlc for final fantasy 15 once they sales target have been reached. But they did it after 2 years i think so. If we want to play the dlc then we will have to wait for 2 years i guess.
53:00 for Ultimalius
When you realize you voice act as Diavolo in the VG version of JoJo5 but gets a Golden Experienced by Giorno who voiced by Zidane.
I love that nothing was really explained in the ending. No need for DLC or anything just an ending that you sit with and think about.
I had a feeling the ending would devastate me -- I'd been getting death flags the past 10 hours of the game -- but goddamn. I managed to avoid more than a few tears until the scene on the beach, and then it all kind of came crashing down that not only had he lost Joshua (again), but Clive was likely going to die as well after EVERYTHING he had been through. Though it was Ultima's goal that he shattered emotionally to be a strong vessel... christ. He didn't have to shatter the entire playerbase as well.
I hated Joshua's death. I never loved a character like this before, I couldn't accept his death, so once I saw him dead, I turned the game off and went to see the end here, not because I cared about the ending, but because I wanted to see if it was really the end of Joshua, I cried so much and I don't think i'll get over it anytime soon
I cried like a bay legit. Right there with Claive 😓😓
I feel you bro...best character ever! He deserved to finally be with his brother! 💔
I finally realized he lived. Clive never died on the beach he passed out and only his hand turned to stone all other eikons disappeared he did not. He ended up writing the book for his brother to honor him. So that means those are his descendant kids. I bet ya any money that older woman is their kid.
I dunno because the "old lady" said something about fairy tales. I don't think she believes it at all
@@babyoli I interpreted it as that it's just really far in the future.
@@kirkshanghai i pray to Metia there is hope 🥹💔
DLC is our last hope cuz Clive and Jill needs a happy ending they deserved we need a DLC just like FFXV's.
I tried to hope for that to, but in a few articles they said they have no plans for dlc. Which kind sucks because I loved the whole game.
lmao he died, just accept that
@@KamiroYeager You clearly didn't understand the meaning of the ending, then, since the game goes out its way to strongly imply that he lived.
@@dr_feelgood1902 I don't think so, he died the same way as Kupka and Barnabas, turning white until he vanishes
@@KamiroYeager Wrong, the crystals' curse requires magic to spread, and as magic no longer exists the petrification can only advance as far as his wrist. It is very, very strongly implied that Clive lives; the title of the book in the epilogue being 'Final Fantasy,' the pen name that was used by its author, and the story the brothers are recounting being the same one told to Clive by his uncle all suggest as much.
Very few games have moved me as much as this game. What an epic story and ending. Many insightful morals and questions found within the story and even in the side quests. I believe both Joshua and Clive survived. My belief is based on the following: 1) It seems Clive Heals Joshua toward the end and even the book has his name as the writer, even if there are things he may not have known he could have gathered information from others. 2) The side quests with Hypocrates one telling Clive he should one day put down sword for quill and the other him saying that Joshua would make a great scholar or writer. 3) The promise of Clive returning to Jill and Jill saying he would return to him at the dawn in the story if I am not mistaken. All these things to me align in making it possible that they both survived. As for Dion, it seems less probable though there is no certainty he died either. I can understand and apprecciate the creators and writers wanting to leave an ending up to debate and for us to talk about and speculate but it is a low punch as well hahaha. I really want to know what happened to the last 3 heroes. Anyways, a masterpiece of a game for sure. Only FF9, X and Life is strange moved me this much and made me shed a tear that I can recall. Let me know if you guys agree or not, its nice to read more opinions and discussion. I feel the creators wanted us to do that, to fill the void this ending can leave us with. Greatest game thus far maybe.
I just wanted to see Clive and Jill to be happy at the end. Square does not like to keep their couples happy.
So... In conclusion..
Clive sacrificed his life to free humanity from being controlled by Ultima, i didnt expect to see rain on my eyes seeing Torgal howl at the moon🥲
clive killed and steal ultimas power. He uses that power to save joshua(who probably survived and wrote that book) and destroyed the last mothercrystal(the origin) and remove all of magic in the world. He then gets into the beach and the curse starts to take effect which ultimately leads to his death.
My shitpost head canon is that clive unintentionally used his new phoenix powers to bring Joshua back to life but then gets distracted by the crystal and burns him to a crisp anyways
1:02:48 well... for now, its the only way I can hear this song. It has the same vibe than "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" from FF14.
I marked so when I come back I can easily find it. 🤷♂️
FF16 is a masterpiece! 👏👏👏👏👏
yo same ive been trying to find this song for hours. is it not out on spotify?
@seekinpeekin no not yet. As of right now the only “real” ways of listening to this beautiful ost is through the digital soundtrack that comes with the digital deluxe edition of the game.
I was cried and tried to find the name of the song
@@seekinpeekinnot even shazam can find it's name. But the melody is almost the same as the instrumental song called "Lunar Serenade" played when Clive and Jill are looking to the moon right at the start of the game.
@@Weiss_Fudder The name of the song is "My Star"
I truly believe clive is alive considering the context of the game
with the ending text, I don't think so
He probably is alive, the scene will jill smiling proves it, plus add all the times Jill says Clive will always come back for her, and I don’t see how he doesn’t survive, it honestly wouldn’t make sense with all the hints they gave throughout the story
@@id1550agreed, too many hints lmao, side quests, those symbolism. And if you know and played many ff games, those aren't normal words or symbol... Those have meaning... There's too much hints that conclude if Clive's alive
Yeah, I mean, like an important theme of the final part of the game is that self-sacrifice is not cool, if they just made him die it would suck from a writing stand-point, like legit bad, you can't have a message and then go against it, that's not how writing is supposed to work
And i frankly don't understand the point of this open ending, unless they're gonna set up some DLCs it feels like a decision pushed from above, you want a tragic ending? Go for it and show him dying, instead the official statement from SE is that the fate of Clive is unknown
@@mrsneedleton3254 I know right.... They're genius writers and know what they done with those hints... But this ending is sort kind of perfect to give us how Jill's feeling to Clive. But I hate it because they gave us unclear information about Clive's fate.
And also I agree about you, since that beach side with Jill, many characters in this game told Clive to take care of himself, and even Joshua punched him 😂 Clive always bring a world's fate in his hand, he always wanted to save the world by himself, don't know that everyone around him is always ready to help him. That's why, if Clive's dead. What was that line "Save yourself" for? Clive said a lot of promises that he will stay alive, and if he dies... It implicit that Clive doesn't have character development for 5 years 💀 but I forgot it's FF after all, I'm not surprised if they do the same with other ff, like Tidus or Noctis that died in the end of the game, but got resurrected in DLC and live happily with their lover
2 things to bear in mind:
1. CBU3 is super strict about "If a character dies on-screen and their spirit is gone, they stay dead."
2. Fakeout deaths are another thing they're a fan of. If there's no body/death scene of their body disintegrating, then the character likely isn't dead.
If you want a berserk game this is the closest you'll get
God this game is beautiful
On my second play through on NG+ and I’m catching all kinds of details that missed on the first time. This is the difficulty the game should’ve been from the start which was one of my gripes about the game
Same. I get they wanted to make sure the game was super accessible for everyone but the standard difficulty was just way to easy and didn't allow their combat to really shine
this aint dark souls lmao, the combat shines enough with how it is now, why would you want it to be more difficult? play any souls game if you want difficulty
@@givenofuckz2313
I’m not into cbt either myself. I like my challenge, but not always like that.
I can get where he’s coming from sorta
@@givenofuckz2313 or just give us hard mode from the start cause we want hard games and not pussy review copies for IGN
same i thought the first playthru was too easy
Clive to Jill before Final Battle: "I'll be back. I promise."
Later.. "Even if it means the end of me"
Beautiful ending, just tragic it ended this way.
Hes definitely alive lol
I just wanted ONE ending that isn’t a breeding ground for conspiracy theories. I’ve never cared so much for a game story and for it to end so open ended just frustrates me.
Same 😢
The way he said OPEN YOUR EYES!😂😂
I find it such strong storytelling when Ultima went from calling "us" and referring itself in third person, to it declaring and talking in first person. While clive went from first, to third person. Especially seeing how cold it was from ultima and how beautyfull and warm it was from clive. No pun intended. But this story kept me at the edge of my seat all the time. From beginning to end. Finally something worth being called a Final Fantasy again! 👏👏👏
The ending is absolutely the best ending in video game history.
Believe me when I say that I NEVER cried in a video game in all my life, and I’m also a cold hearted person, but this time…I just burst into tears.
Thank you, Square Enix.
I did too
I don't get the hate, it's a very classic FF ending to me. Melancholic but always resoundingly hopeful.
How was it the best ending lol. Games like these you want the best endings in terms of the protagonist firmly 100% being alive while I think Clive lived after investing 40+hours into this game I wish they were more resolute in it... Like come on great game but that ending just ruins it in terms of the indifference.
You didn't cry when Dom did the thing in Gears of War 3 ?
That game made grown men everywhere weep 😂
Also the thing with doms wife in gears of war 2 😅
Those 2 moments should easily be in anyone's top 10 saddest video game moments ever
For some reason I thought the very end of ff15 was more sad
This one was heartbreaking, especially during cid and joshuas death, and the end with clive is really sad
But for some reason ff15 was more sad to me , both noctis and clive are similar heroes in a way tho
@@mako3197idk anyone who's hating besides 40 year old basement dwellers that still wanna play turn based games and haven't grown up or changed their mentality of the world since high-school 😂😅 and their opinions are irrelevant/ in the minority , this game was a top 3 or top 5 final fantasy game tbh
52:34 Oh! Oh! He said it, he said the thing!
Did we get a conclusion to the orphan girl’s story? We know Terence was sent to care for her, but they both deserved to be shown living peacefully. She was literally mistreated the whole game, we should have seen her happy.
Would have made sense for Tarja to mentor the medicine girl.
No FF has made me cry since FF9 when I was 13. Perfection..
the book at the end was written
by joshua so does it mean he survived?
Ambiguous.
It’s maybe him or Clive and Jill’s child.
Clive is the narrator of the story. He took Joshua name and wrote the book of the ending.
@@marceloazcona8032What the fuck lmao
Pretty sure Clive used the Phoenix flames to revive Joshua (after the montage of memories between siblings) before he decimated Ultima's legacy.
@@armerjosephbautista2197It didn't work though
Joshua is for sure dead since the Phoenix can't ressurect people. Knowing this, Clive had to have survived in order to write the "final fantasy" book at the end.
Here's some things that support this.
- Harpocrates gave Clive a quill at the end of his questline and he hoped that Clive would one day hang up his sword and instead pick up the quill to write about his experiences.
- No one would have tried to use Joshua's name besides Clive. If anything, they probably would've tried to use Clive's name.
- Joshua wouldn't have wrote the book before he died. Nothing indicated that he was writing a book during his travels, and neither he nor anyone else would have known about the "final fantasy" phrase Clive told Ultima.
- The entire game Clive was sacrificing himself for the sake of others. Many of the side characters wished for him to finally be able to save himself.
All of this points to Clive surviving, at least long enough to get all of his thoughts into writing. What he actually did or how long he survived is anyone's guess. Maybe he actually left the twins along with Jill like how he promised in her final side quest (that's my headcanon). Anyways, I really loved this game and its characters. Props to CBU 3 for making such a memorable experience
Perfect! I think the same, and Clive begins narrating the book in begging of the game, also he finished in the end Clive lives.
The world you seek is but a fantasy!
The only fantasy here is yours. And we shall be its final witness!
Love the link to the saga name being Final Fantasy.
I started tearing up when the ending music played, and when Clive said “Can you see it too…. Jill?” I started to cry. But when Torgal started howling, I bursted into ugly man tears…😢