The “Clive Lives” Compendium | All Main Evidence Compiled (Character & Theme Analysis) | FFXVI
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- #ff16 #videoessay #finalfantasy16 #finalfantasyxvi #ffxvi
Discussing the ending of Final Fantasy 16 / XVI and aiming to circumvent (imo) trash writing.
Does Clive die? I doubt it.
I’m not saying this is the ending, I’m saying this would be the best ending on all accounts. To me, at least.
OSTs used:
Main Menu II
Indomitable
My Lady
In Darkness Hope
The Oppressed (Final Fantasy VII)
Simple & Clean (Kingdom Hearts)
my clive bested meme: / nnidmfqvpr
the old less-good video I made: • Clive’s Fate | How Fin...
0:00 - Intro
0:26 - The Beach
1:24 - Clive's Character Arc
2:39 - Joshua's Fate
3:14 - The Book
5:00 - Metia, Red (Herring) Star
6:02 - Eikonic Niche
6:13 - Torgal's Reactions
6:52 - Jill & The Dawn
8:21 - Song meanings
8:34 - tl;dw for Jill
8:54 - Cid vs Clive
9:31 - How to Escape Fate
9:58 - maaan fucc this open ended a$$ jrpg type sh!t
10:32 - Overaltruism
10:51 - Purposeless Death
11:04 - Not Actual Human Behavior
11:29 - Outro - Ігри
I’ll be using this as a space to clarify and update anything.
- I’ve realized I kinda glossed over Joshua’s death; here are some additional points.
Joshua is portrayed as the weaker of the brothers and needed Clive to protect him (a la sworn Shield), so Joshua being the one who actually saved Clive in the end by gifting his Eikon’s strength to him is what would round out his story arc. Otherwise, Joshua’s character role by the end is pretty static, just being the one with a Shield to protect him all the time, be it Clive or the Undying. Him becoming Clive’s shield adds a lot more flavor.
Now on the ending scene. If Clive did indeed think Joshua could be revived and intended to do just that, then I think he would have checked the body for any sign of life after his casting, or at least have shown more of a reaction afterward in general. Clive not expecting the spell to actually work, or him not even intending to revive Joshua thinking/knowing it would be futile, would explain his lack of any further action or strong reaction after his casting. I mean, let’s face it: he would absolutely express strong emotions if a revival attempt worked.
If a successful revival were to be confirmed, then, in the scene, if Joshua were able to regain a heartbeat, a pulse, a breath, _anything,_ I view Clive’s lack of making sure, let alone any big reaction, as a forced directorial decision to facilitate an open ending for the time being-not the greatest look. The scene’s events as they are make more sense with the idea that he didn’t try to revive him.
- Dion already fills the role of “main character who sacrifices themselves in the end.” The story doesn’t need another character doing the same thing in Clive. Clive’s story is about taking care of and saving himself, but Dion’s story never has any focus on this. He gives his life for the cause in the hope of forgiveness, as he already couldn’t live with himself after Twinside.
He mentions himself that he doesn’t have much to come back to, but even if he were able to for Terence and Harpocrates, I wonder if the regrets he has for the past would ever stop tormenting him. He seems very at peace with not coming back, and, based on his final dialogue, he is happy that he could be instrumental to stopping Ultima because of avenging his father, not because he saw that this would personally redeem himself.
- Proof the ending is officially open (director interview): reddit.com/r/FFXVI/s/dZclOmSBdB
- For those who think hours could have passed between Jill looking outside and her witnessing the dawn: we see her run from the infirmary to the edge of the mess in that same cut. There was no time jump.
- An alternate theory I see working regarding the book is that Clive and Jill have a son named Joshua, and he writes the book, having access to the firsthand accounts of Clive and co. Basically the same thing, but without Clive doing his moniker-adopting.
- I don’t mention _The Saint and The Sectary_ because I don’t see why it would only be known to Clive and Byron, and therefore doesn’t really work as evidence for the point that Clive must have written the book. That almost assumes that Joshua barely had a part in Clive’s life during their Rosalith days. And I’m sure that in the offscreen time the characters have together, they would recount stories of adventures to people who weren’t with them at the time. If not Clive or Jill, then absolutely Byron would tell Joshua of how Clive won his trust by performing the part of Sir Crandall without skipping a beat. Also, we have no idea how popular _The Saint and The Sectary_ really is in their world. Perhaps it just stood the test of time.
- Here’s my full text that I threw at you from 06:11
Actually, not quite.
The game does nothing to truly develop this aspect of Eikons any further than the couple lines at the Ironworks… so let me try.
If it were true that Dominants could sense each other anytime and anywhere, then we the audience should never have seen Cid, Jill, Dion and eventually Clive believe nor continue to believe that Joshua died at Phoenix Gate. Before his return to the spotlight, these characters all either speak of Joshua as though he’s dead, or explicitly express shock at the reveal of his survival.
Given that, in reference to Barnabas, Clive says “He’s here… I can feel him.” when reaching the top of Reverie, I believe this “ability” to be proximity-based. The center of the Naldia Narrow is not too far from the Ironworks, so it makes sense that Clive and Joshua could still feel something of Shiva’s aether.
But, one may ask, if this talk of vicinity were true, how could Cid and Benedikta never notice for themselves that Clive is a Dominant? They are both first made witness to his priming before knowing. Actually, forget vicinity here, how could this be possible at all if the aether of a Dominant’s Eikon is detectable by other Dominants?
Well, given that neither Jill nor Clive could sense Joshua either as he was trailing them at the Phoenix Gate ruins, I believe an Eikon’s readable aether may wane to eventually undetectable levels the longer their Dominant goes without priming. Clive went 13 years, and Joshua presumably went 18.
All in all, this interpretation of Eikon-sensing would render it impossible for Jill to sense the aether of Ifrit, the Phoenix, or Bahamut all the way from the Hideaway to the coast of the Narrow in order to conclude any of them may be dead. If/when any of them died, she could not possibly know through this “ability.” This would also explain why Jill doesn’t mourn Joshua (or Dion, I guess).
By the way, sensing an Eikon is not restricted to post-Primogenesis, as Benedikta senses Cid when he and Clive approach Caer Norvent.
DLC needs a Dion and Clive alive reveal bc i don’t care. i’m over all my faves dying at the end of games i love.
Playble dion.... We need to play as dion 1 he it so strong compare to banavers his boss fight was more phase then odin and need took clive and josha to beat him, also i do not belive the power was complately gone but transfer to other god that in good intention
I’d like to add that if anything mirrors Cid’s death, it’s JOSHUA’S death, which leans EVEN MORE towards Clive carrying on his name!
One other thing. The platinum trophy labels Clive "The Chronicler," just like the FF15 Platinum trophy labeled Noctis "The World Wanderer." Clive is The Chronicler because he wrote the book :)
Great video summing up everything.
The dumbest thing I've heard people say is that if Clive is alive it invalidates his sacrifice and character arc, but I'm like, it's literally the opposite.
The entire game everyone (Cid, Jill, Joshua) keeps telling Clive to NOT sacrifice himself, so him dying would invalidate all of those character moments and it wouldn't make sense from a writing standpoint.
Also it wouldn't make sense for Joshua to sacrifice himself so that Clive can live, only for Clive to just die moments later. I feel like that makes Joshua's death less meaningful.
Clive always talks about being Joshua's Shield and being the one that needs to save and protect him, but in the end it's Joshua that saves Clive so that he can live the life he always wanted with Jill. That's just objectively better writing.
Clive being alive would not make it a "Disney" happy ending. Dion and Joshua still died. It's still a bittersweet emotional ending, but much more satisfying.
I think the story might be written, kind of like one of those old tragites. The tragedy being that everyone keeps telling Clive to come back and not to get himself killed only for him to end up doing it anyway, and for everyone who loved him to survive, including Jousha who Clive though was dead and who's death helped push Clive too make the finale scafice. But Clive's death is also kind of necessary, so it's kind of bittersweet . I think it might have written as an intentional tragedy of coarse who knows for sure unless Square reveals something either through adding content to the game or Square coming out and saying what actually happened .
THIS^^^^
Perfectly put. They put so much care into the themes and through lines of the whole story, it objectively makes no sense for the ending to be counter to those themes. And like the video said, doing a DOUBLE fake-out of Joshua's death would feel very cheap.
They set up Joshua to make the final sacrifice, they set up Dion to give his life to right his wrongs, they set up Cid to give Clive a new purpose and then pass on his legacy, they set up Clive to LIVE not for himself, but for all of the people who love him and have pleaded with him the ENTIRE GAME to save himself. I would accept him sacrificing himself if they set that up, but they didn't. They did the opposite. So I can't believe that they would intend for such an unsatisfying, counter-to-the-narrative ending.
I love it when Clive says "It's final fantasy time" then proceeds to finalize Ultima's fantasy.
Wow… that’s the first time I’ve heard that meme literally be what happened
👑 Here King, you dropped this.
Clive living makes so much sense in terms of the theme and not too mention Clive tells Jill not to put her faith in the Metia star but have faith in him that he'll return.
When was this in game? I looked for this scene after seeing this comment and couldn't find it for the life of me, cause that would indeed be a major point if true
Joshua states in game that the phoenix’s power can restore flesh, but it cannot bring someone back to life. Clive has had so many names and titles that of course he’d take on that pen name to do what old Harpo recommended. Clive is alive. This made me feel better. And Torgal was totally searching. You’re right on all accounts.
with ultima's 'raise' being a thing and all, i think that clive tried to cast it on joshua only to literally say 'perhaps ultima's magic was too great for this vessel all along' implying it didnt work. i like this interpretation because it would have made ultima's quest even more ironic than it already is. or it could also just mean that its just too much power and he cant contain it and has to use it.
Also more details:
1. A mad man on Reddit calculated where Clive washed up using the moon's angle. And considering how that's a detail the devs put attention to in 14... Clive is right next to Northreach. Southern shore more precisely.
2. The narrator being the author is a plot device Maehiro has used before in XIV: Heavensward.
Also according to Koji Fox in a recent interview, Maehiro was VERY insistent about the Final Fantasy line and my gut tells me it's not just about the easter egg.
3. YoshiP does have a history of calling out wrong interpretations when he's pestered about it ("bloody hell guys he's dead!"-about Endwalker) he didn't for Clive.
4. Recent DLC also reinforced the sea=death image. Bearers return their ash to the sea...and guess who's the only one who crawled out of it?
And omg those saying him living is the "Disney ending". Bloody hell, I went through many quests with everyone talking about how the world will be shitty for quite a while and they may not see the fruits of their labor in their lifetime. How's that a Disney ending?
I think whenever an ending isn’t crystal clear about someone’s death, it usually means they aren’t
“ Clive uses raise on his brother. “ -blows the place up 2 seconds later with Joshua laying there.
Yeah I'm totally fine with clive being dead if this theory is just flat out wrong, even thiugh i think it has credibility. People who say that's he's dead yet Joshua isn't is even less likely and I find it hilarious.
I am not englishing well, does this mean you think hes (joshua)
alive or dead
@@stkkjj
nevermind sorry I just understood. yea lol. I agree. @@stkkjj
I feel like Clive dying would just be way too straight forward and surface level. They put so much attention into foreshadowing and details Clive dying would just be such a slap in the face to the rest of the game. Jill’s dialogue about dawn, Harpocrates and the book, Clive’s narration. Too many details that coincide with Clive surviving.
I know people bash the side quests but there are a lot of subtle hints that Clive is the one who lives. The side quest where he gains Tomes quill pen and writing a story, which you mentioned as well but it made sense to me
LOVE your theory absolutly Jill says to him that he try to save everyone but not himself... also I agree with Clive being alive people think that because his hand was becoming into stone that means Clive is dead and no, as you mention many other characters in the game you can see them alive even with almost their entired body becoming into stone... and yeah to me Joshua is dead dead.... and a really good way to explain why clive wrote the book is because wen he absorved an eikon we know now from what happened when he took Bahamut´s power, this action also gives to Clive memories of the people who where the dominant so Clive knows EVERYTHING including Ultima as he absorb him at the end
I think exactly the same. I'm convinced that the curse disappeared along with magic. Clive lost his left hand/arm, but he's still alive.
Tbh I really didn’t like the end. It’s probably cause I read and watched so much media with the similar open ended bull, media like that was my childhood. And I always hated it cause it felt like a cop out. “Oh the fans can think of their own possible ending” NO if I wanted to do that I’d write fan fiction. Give me the canon and all of it, I am too greedy for open ends. But after having such a blast with the entire story for it to end like that, made me immediately never want to replay. 💀
Lmao ikr. Like if they’re going to give us an open ended ending like that, we better at least get a fucking sequel, or something that gives people closure.
This is it. This is the video. You've pretty much mentioned everything I've thought of after a month of decifering every little detail.
Though I think the whole "sensing eikon" thing was new to the post-Bahamut fight when Ultima cast Primogenesis. See, when that was cast, aether pooled from the ground and floods started springing up. I think Dominants became highly attuned to sensing aether as a side effect. Thus, they couldn't sense Joshua at Phoenix gate ruins, Kupka at Rosalith Castle but they could sense Jill and Barnabas.
Interesting idea, but Benedikta senses Cid at the start of the Caer Norvent mission.
I recently beat the game myself and I was looking at some videos on it! I thought some things were up! Def alive! End of your video is hilarious too! You deserve more subs!
Yes, there are many hints, even more than those you mentioned. If they bothered to leave the ending open then it makes no sense for me to believe that he is dead, since I really want Jill to get her happy ending.
This is brilliant! I agree that the integrity of the narrative/writing is compromised with Clive “sacrificing” himself when his evolution as a character involved overcoming suicidal/martyrdom ideation with the help of the people who loved him. I say that respectfully as the ending is open ended until confirmed 100% otherwise.
Also as others have commented, the reference to Saint and Secretary in the epilogue as well as Jill commenting of Clive’s many books as a boy and him responding that he loved reading epic tales documenting man vs the gods may also be hints as to who really wrote that book in the end.
You spoke to my soul on this one. It simply doesn't make sense for him to die.
you're a fool if you think FF16 story is over, do you guys played FF-X ?
Great video, with some well-placed humor in between. I'd like to add that some recently translated quotes from the main writer (from the Ultimania book maybe idk) basically play into some fan theories. He explained some stuff about Jills strong reaction, Metia and Clive. Basically Jill assumed Clive had no intention of coming back when he said "I promise" cause apparently she thought he's a bad liar since the Byron introduction scene. That's why she put her last hope into Metia and when it also faded she thought that PERHAPS her wish wont come true. So she only lost hope, assumed his death, she didnt feel or know it 100%. Makes Torgals more composed reaction more understandable. And one final thing; Clive not only ended magic bearers etc in that moment, but also petrification. I dont know if all quotes come from Maehiro himself, but all are legit. Im not sure if the petrification quote comes directly from the book or from a separate Maehiro interview though.
I feel like they are slowly warming up to fully explaining the ending. One of the DLCs may be the reason for that.
THANK YOU. The narrative reasons are IT for me!!! It makes it so unsatisfying for him to go and do the thing that everyone the whole game is telling him NOT to do. I get that it might have been inevitable, and I would have believed that maybe if we hadn't seen him washed up on shore, seemingly in perfectly fine condition aside from a stone hand. There was no clear reason for why that moment would be his death. I accepted it at first but after more thought I had to push back and I'm so glad I did!
This is not copium, it's just logic and understanding of writing!
One more to confirm that Joshua died;
It's a solid storytelling trope that if a character coughs even once, it means they're sick and going to die lol
Great content. Thank you. I totally agree with you. The ending is not just ambiguous, it is clever. The more you dig into the game the more you come to the conclusion that he lives on. It is not a story for “lazy” gamers :D The script from this game is pure gold.
PS: there is an interesting book at hideout talking about a rosarian knight going to war and leaving his pregnant lady behind. It alludes that those who are touched by the fenix won´t die and that she should wipe her tears because although her fiance left his light lives on at her womb. The whole verses looks quite suspicious but I don´t think Jill is pregnant after the beach scene. A baby makes total sense as a proxy for a new world but that is why they included the other lady for it... But as everything about the ending... who knows?!
Jill being pregnant makes perfect sense. It ties in with her leaving the party and when she rejoins it. The fact her quest is hidden so most people will find it after they've finished the hunts etc.
Also, they "became one" on the beach. Could imply general sex or, she's actually pregnant but they knew their time was drawing near, if there was a chance he could die in the last battle, who's to say she wanted a part of him to live on no matter what? Jill is a hopeless romantic and was deeply in love with him before even Rosalith. I'm almost certain she was carrying when he went to Origin.
@@DarthPingu07 My understanding on her leaving the party was that since she no longer "had" Shiva she would have been in greater danger and Clive knew that. We also cannot tell how many weeks have passed since the love scene...
But yes, I also think it is a beautiful possibility in such a lovely story and I would definitely want it to happen! They both deserve it.
@@HappyDianemartin the only thing Jill can't do is fully prime. She still has all her powers as shown when she gets off the ship in Stonhyrr and freezes the floor for Dion to blast. She also still uses all her moves in battle. We've never seen anybody semiprime after Clive used his gift so I don't know about that though.
We don't know how many weeks has passed but we know Mids ship takes 3-4 days (I think) to get from Ash to Kanver so if you add up all the trips Clive has to make for side quests, then account for downtime he has to rest between missions etc it could be well over a month before he goes to origin. He has a lot of side quests and travelling all over the twins and back in the last stretch.
at first i was a believer of joshua surviving, i do like the thematic significance of clive naming him the author, thus immortalizing him forevermore
Excellent video! I just want to add that as we know, phoenix flame can heal but not revive (Joshua said that he was too late when he found Cid dead. If he wasn't too late, he could heal him). So the only thing Clive could do was to heal Joshua's body from this ulcer but not make him alive again. And therefore I strongly believe that Clive is alive (probably the curse stopped when the last piece of magic disappeared and as you say he can not die from something that does not exist anymore) and will just return with one hand. A great idea btw to add more different combat prosthesis in DLC xD
THANK YOU. Thank you. I needed this video
Great video friend he's definitely alive
We’ve still got an entire other DLC expansion coming too. I wonder when it will take place in the game. Will it be a post ending DLC or pre ending?
I agree with almost all of this. The only thing that I think is also possible is like a second coming for Joshua. In my head it's possible that his soul/consciousness transferred to Clive when he passed the Phoenix. Joshua's name is derived from Yeshua (Jesus's basically) and there are so many similarities in religion (undying as apostles, resurrection, sacrifice at a young age, but also: a second coming). And before that his spirit returning in the guise of FLAMES. And that sort of gives me the impression that it's possible that Joshua is still alive, his vessel healed and his consciousness perhaps clinging to Clive's (until his body washes up somewhere if not incinerated). Because wouldn't Clive's terms be for his brother to be alive SOMEHOW. And that for me leaves Joshua's death open too. And one could call it far fetched but they're also talking about leaving vessels and returning to them. Even going into hibernation without one. If there was one dominant who could...
And in that case they could have written that book together. Joshua was the chronicler of them, even if Harpocrates wanted Clive to pick up the quill.
And the Phoenix feather was always a sign to Clive, a symbol of Joshua being alive. The fact that it's there at the end didn't seem random, or a sudden change of meaning of a symbol so significant. But that too could be open for interpretation, but changing the meaning like that is not the best writing imo. It's in essence the twitch or intake of breath people wanted to see. While that vessel is clearly without life.
I mean, like you said at the end: everything is still possible depending on the angle. 😆 Except for maybe saying it's clear cut. Also: Dion please be alive too. Even if that's the one character whose death makes sense from a narratological POV. No fall damage ftw.
I would add that the quote he uses in the narration in the very beginning belongs to a book that joshua had and then gave to harpocrates, so when did he stop to read
That ending tells me there should be more or possibilities could happen, but yeah, the book got me thinking even more but even the voice actors of the game have said that the ending was made that way for anyone’s interpretation and I believe that there’s a possibility of Moore to add I’m hoping
one pretty important thing you missed:
in the post-credits scene, the little boys mention “The Saint and the Sectary”, and given that everything else they talk about is pulled from the ‘Final Fantasy’ book, that probably is too
the only two people who would include that in the book are Clive and Uncle Byron, so if Clive didn’t write the book under Joshua’s name, then Uncle Byron did and that’s the single most bizarre twist in all of gaming. lmao
given CBU3’s continued cohesion and consistency in writing FFXIV, i think it’s pretty safe to say they didn’t just “haha whoops!” at the end of FFXVI; anyone who thinks clive died probably just didn’t do the sidequests that drop on you at the very end of the game
that or they just don’t pay any attention to the media they consume
(also, great video 👏)
Lmao stop coping.
He's dead, and even if he's not, there isn't solid evidence of this.
You're talking about the last secondary mission and it's crazy that you missed the f point of it.
He literally trained EVERYBODY to prepare for a world where he WON'T BE HERE. Dude that is so hilarious that you are missing it.
Man, this is so harsh to don't pay any attention to the media you're consuming, isn't it ?
@@netherlim Nah, if they bothered to leaved the ending open instead of making him clearly dead that tells me he is anything but. They even said it in an interview that it's open ended on purpose.
To be completely fair, most of the more cohesive content in FFXIV has been written by Ishikawa, rather than the people who wrote FF16. There's a *lot* of writing pitfalls in this game, so I don't think using "it's what makes sense in writing" as *evidence* for this interpretation of the ending is truly fair. The game sort of... forgets what it's about a handful of times, so...
I don't disagree with the interpretation that he's alive, btw, but I also don't *agree* with it.
yes, it's open to interpretation. Both are valid, so him saying "if you think he's dead you're not paying attention" is just stupid.@@Leonhart_93
@@netherlim And so we have made our interpretation. After that the truth becomes only one and everything else a falsehood ready to be debunked. One individual's stance cannot be "I don't want to know", that's a dumb way to live.
I came in to this thinking this idea was BS, now I’m pretty convinced your right. Well done, lots of great points here. What an awesome game.
also good video! i like this video
I know the ending is very open to interpretation, but I really like your theory!! (although I really wish all of them are alive... Gotdam ending made me cry and depressed for weeks)
I DONT SEE THE FUCKING BOAT EITHER THANK YOU LMAOO
Clive living wouldn’t have been a happy ending either. His victory did not come without loss. But at the very least him being by Jill’s side in the end would’ve been a better bittersweet ending. Joshua dying was painful.
thank you
Thank you. Yoshi P and his writing team are too good to go against how they set up Clive's character and story.
When the next dlc lol I need it bad
A lot of what you're saying makes sense, but one thing bugs about the Clive wrote the book theory, and that is it isn't in character for him too Wright mostly about himself. Maybe it's possible that both Clive and Joshua live
It's hard to say what clive would do if he survived because he's really just the apex of a soldier. There is literal evidence though in a side quest that he would consider using a pen instead of a sword and becoming a "moss the chronicler" of the events of the story. So the fact that the platinum trophy and the post credit scene supports it just makes that idea stronger. I think it's the strongest evidence of him surviving.
@stkkjj Hypocrites also tells Clive what a great historian he thinks Jousha is, and Joshua also mentions Jote was keeping records of their travels.
@@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Meaning that Joshua's story was already put on paper, but Clive's wasn't. So if you're correct, it'd mean Joshua wrote a book with what he assumed to be his brother's story.
If the other way around, Clive writes down his story after it all ended and added Joshua's notes. A cheeky way to explain why you sometimes play as Joshua/Phoenix.
exactly my thoughts =)
I also think the decision not to show a happy reunion of Clive and Jill at the end is a good thing. It would reduce the story to just the two of them and take the focus away from the change the ending brings to the world as a whole.
Except that I didn't care much about the world as a whole, compared to the two of them. Or maybe they did a poor job at making me care. And saving the world is the most basic of premises, everyone knew it was going to happen since the start, not a highlight or surprise.
@@Leonhart_93 Honestly, yeah. What really drew me in for this game’s story was the characters. I was invested in seeing what happened to them, what decisions they made, how they could blossom thematically, what they really stand for as characters, how their relationships develop, etc.
The abstract, scaleless goal of “saving the world” is vastly uninteresting in comparison. I care about the rest of their personal goals much more.
@@shodai2054 I understand that completely. I, too, am attached to the characters and their fates in a story. But that doesn't change the fact that it depends on what kind of story is to be told. And Clive's goal was the better world. If he ends up writing a story about what happened, he would write a story about saving the world - not about his personal gains and losses. And from this perspective I can understand the decision not to show a personal happy ending =)
I would have liked to see it too - no question. But not seeing it doesn't ruin the story for me aftewards. Because that this end exists, shows the story. That it is not to be seen, is simply part of Clive's narrative perspective and part of his character. That's what I mean.
@@ErinOnline It's not just about Clive we are talking here. Honestly if it wasn't for Jill being left behind to live an aimless life without him, then I wouldn't care much about Clive himself. He did what he wanted.
@@shodai2054 Yeah, saving the world is too abstract of a concept to get me interested. At this point I am kind of tired of the narrative of martyr heroes that don't want to fight for themselves and to fight in order to live together with their loved ones. Fighting with no regard for their own life is so damn common but so very boring at this point.
I understand your pov on this theory and, after watching the video, I truly respect it, some of this are valid points (like the title of the Book at the end). What I don't understand is the reason why the ending would become shallow if Cllive truly died. Sure the story and its characters tell over and over again to Clive that he doesn't have to become a martyr and, before the ending, he embraces this idea. But we all agree that he had to destroy Origin and rid the world of magick. So he had to do it and he was the only one who could do it and maybe this act of God was too much even for his perfect body, resulting in him dying. It's sad but also realistic, it doesn't go against the themes, this would be an ending that says "Yes, he deserves a happy ending, he deserves to live and die on his terms, he earned this chance....but sometimes the world is cruel and unjust and for reasons beyond his control this chance is taken away from him"
Because him dying it's an extremely common and actually boring ending these days. Yet another martyr hero that doesn't know what to live for an so he dies to save a world that largely rejected him and what he stood for. Don't sound exciting at all.
@@Leonhart_93 except for the fact that It isn't like this. He knows exactly what to live for (One good reason Is Jill) and the world rejected him only in the beginning of the game, toward the end he became one of the most famous and most beloved people on the world. Hell, if he survived Origin he would have become a figure akin to the leader of Valisthea. The world Is saved but the Hero dies, the premise Is boring sure, but how it's delivered Is what truly sells the deal. Also, we have to remember, not all endings have to be something that fulfill all our needs, the author doesn't owe us the ending we want, actually he doesn't owe us anything
@@nicolomontefiori8082 He owes us to make the ending good, or even the best ending one could possibly write. Why would I be happy with just an acceptable or mediocre ending when it can be great instead?
@@Leonhart_93 we all want a great ending (which this game does have), but an author doesn't owe us nothing since nobody forced us ti buy his game. It's like complaining about the lack of trailers of an upcoming game when, in reality, the Company doesn't owe us any trailer
@@nicolomontefiori8082 That's a stupid argument to make. He owes us a great story, that's what we all pay see. This is not some obscure work that some two cent artist wrote in their free time and we happened upon it.
Besides, they already said in an interview that they left the ending open on purpose. But why, they had no problem killing protagonists in the past. That along with the slew of hints scattered in the story should raise questions.
I agree with your points. I’m sticking with it,
Im hoping the open ending was done on purpose to gauge the reaction into how much people cared. Now they’re making the 2nd DLC, my hope is it changes the ending to something I like :) (if you like the ending, straight up go F yourselves 😅)
everyone is alive. Dion is alive, joshua is alive and clive is alive.
How hard could it have been to have Clive roll up on the boat like a chad, Jill runs into his arms crying her eyes out, crowd goes wild, roll credits.
This ending is as bad a "everyone's dead" ending because it doesn't bring concrete closure.
If ANYBODY in the franchise needed a happy ending it was Jill and Clive. They had their trauma at the start of the game. They beat their trauma and everything else that came at them. They bonded and they grew and eventually their slow burn romance took hold. Say Clive is dead, what does that mean for Jill? He was her world since the Nisa Defile and it was obvious back then. She has literally nothing to live for, certainly no joy, and if Clive has gone then she has nobody left, not even Shiva. I honestly think she'd join him and end herself. She's strong but she's also human.
I do think she's pregnant though. Theres little things like Clive saying he should scout for bandits... At a snow daisy field? Coupled with him asking his most travelled companion if she wants to... travel? Then she remarks about them getting back before everybody wonders where they've gone when they've left for weeks at a time before. Then there's her side quest which is hidden so most people would stumble across it after they've done the hunts and other side quests, at which point she rejoins your party, just to travel basically. She moves to Clives balcony which is arguably the most central part of the hideaway which offers a view out to the docks for when he returns. Lastly she may have bore a son who they named Joshua in honour of his uncle who, with his parents guidance, chronicled their journey and thus he authored FINAL FANTASY.
Clive and Jill retired to the continent like he promised her, they settled down, had a family. A fitting end to arguably the best couple in the series and an end they deserved.
Exactly, I am tired of lazy endings. I get the distinct feeling that they kill the protags or leave them open just so that they won't have to bother showing their life afterwards. But what you get like that is a bunch of sacrificial martyrs that had no idea how and what to live for. That's quite bad.
I really think you are missing the point of Jill's character. She had an entire arc and she's a character of her own. Clive was not her only reason to be alive. She was kept captive for 13 years under the Iron Kingdom and she did not survive just because of Clive. She also had dreams and goals for Valisthea. A woman can exist without a man, just saying.
@@nabradia That doesn't mean she will be happy like that, she said distinctly that Clive was a part of her, the half that makes her whole. There is nothing nice for me when I imagine her living alone.
@@Leonhart_93 They are in their 30s. Trust me, people learn to move on and build other meaningful bonds. It's super shallow to believe we'll only love one person for the rest of our lives.
@@nabradia Trust you? Did you even pay attention to her? She loved him for over 18 years, even since they were children and that didn't change even for the 13 years when she thought he was dead. What part of her made you think "oh, she will come to love someone else". No, she won't, her loyalty is superlative.
Looking at her through the lens of modern women is stupid. If anything, she will live her life honoring everything he stood for, like keep fighting for their cause.
I hoping with you, because she this in the future he still alive in next game I don’t know 🤷♂️
But remember they had those people that were trying to keep certain evidence a secret, so why wouldn’t they assume that it was a fantasy lol and is it possible that she was pregnant with his child too?
It is possible that both Clive and Josuha lived as well.
there's a lot of cope here, but i believe it all bc he can't be fucking dead ):
I do believe that Joshua is alive. I believe that both of them live because of the book at the end.
That is very possible
@@kamageddynvideochannel3479 yeah I know it’s speculation. That’s why they left the ending the way they did. I pray there is going to be more of Final Fantasy 16. I loved every bit of it. It’s the one and only that I platinumed
You don’t have to read if you don’t want to, sorry.
I honestly don’t think that, having Ultima’s godly powers, Clive made a retrospective journey about his memories with his brother just to “clean” the body, only to be crushed to pieces once Origin fell apart. I can wholeheartedly agree with Clive being alive, but his whole journey started because of his brother, that’s literally the reason this story even takes place. There are literally two entries about the spell “Raise” after you beat the game, Clive absorbed Ultima’s power (which said God used to create “life”, he only needed a new vessel to use its full power) and brought Joshua back to life. And I know that Joshua says that the Phoenix cannot revive, but use that with Ultima’s power = Raise. Sorry, but I wouldn’t clean a body just for it to be crushed or cremated afterwards.
Harpocrates gives Clive the quill for him to write once his journey is over, but he also mentions that Joshua could be a historian one day. Maybe Clive told Joshua everything so he could write it instead (Joshua is literally the only one, between the two, that speaks very metaphorically and “bookishly”). I see a lot of people demanding that only Clive survived or that Joshua did, when for me it clearly seems like both probably did.
If Square Enix releases a DLC and Joshua is dead then it’s ok, water under the bridge (I’ll cry my tears out when that happens). But I believe that a scene like that, so powerful, just for him to be dead, it’s a waste for me.
I interpreted the childhood flashbacks as more “respectable sendoff” than “reason for revival”.
Raise is used to create life. We know nothing on if it can reinstate life in a past vessel where it now no longer exists, abstract traits like memory and personality and all being restored / remaining intact. Maybe that’s why it didn’t work even if Raise is what Clive used here, and not just highly concentrated Phoenix powers.
But if Clive did indeed think Joshua could be revived and intended to do so, then I think we would have seen him express disappointment if it didn’t work, and elation if it did. Actually, no, scratch that-if he meant to revive Joshua, then I think he would have _checked_ the body for any sign of life. Clive not expecting the spell to actually work, or him not even intending to revive Joshua thinking/knowing it would be futile, would explain his lack of any further action or strong reaction after his casting. I mean, let’s face it: he would absolutely react strongly if it brought him back.
If a successful revival were to be confirmed, then, in the scene, if Joshua were able to regain a heartbeat, a pulse, a breath, _anything,_ I view Clive’s lack of making sure, let alone lack of any big reaction, as a forced directorial decision to facilitate an open ending for the time being-not the greatest look.
@@shodai2054 Also about 'cleaning his body': right before the last fight, the brothers were both teasing each other about how terrible they looked.
And we also know to which extent Ultima can create life (which was the power Clive wielded at that point): They can create Akashic life. No soul, no identity, they are automatons. So Raise succeeding on Joshua would make him a zombie.
Something I'd like to point out.
The Pheonix *cannot* revive the dead.
There is NO chance of Joshua coming back to life from whatever Clive did.
That spoiler warning is useless when the title itself is a spoiler
Although I can agree with a lot of points you raised, some are bluntly literal interpretations. I'm not going to counter argument everything because I believe you have an overall valid point, but honestly the "one minute from crying to smiling" got to me. She starts crying when the moon is up and it could have been at least hours before the sun rises, not a mere minute. Second because Jill is just as stoic as Clive was, in her own way. This is a girl that was taken as a warden and managed to make a home out of her 'captivity', who managed to swallow the hard pill it was serving the Iron Kingdom and who betrayed her own beliefs for a good portion of the early game to ensure her closest ones were kept safe. She is not one to cry her heart out even when things get out of hand. The mere fact that she is shown crying gives the entire sequence gravity enough, and her "stopping all too fast" is a sign of respect for Clive more than anything.
About the book title "final fantasy", Ultima can mean Final, and Mythos can mean Fantasy, not that hard to believe the story of how both killed each other was named that way... It could just as much be that both of them died and who carried out the writing was none other than Joshua's personal escorts, since not only do they have the ultimate task of compiling memories and keeping records of everything that happens to the Phoenix, but they are shown collecting ancient, hard-to-retrieve data. Nothing guarantees that the entire sequence of what happened in Origin was described in detail on that book so why assume that it was written in the first place? We only see the kids playing and referring to details that were common knowledge.
Last, but not least, I think that Pen and Quill quest is such a shallow reason. Dion is also given a quest, with none other than TOMES AS WELL where he is offered a flower and he denies it for that time being, claiming he would come back at a later time, when he was worthy of carrying it.
He did not come back to that flower. So similarly, Clive may have not come back for the pen and quill.
Yes I also thought the Undying would have been the one's to follow up with the book. At minimum I would expect Jote to have, assuming Joshua had left some records of their travels.
@@bunn228 precisely. Especially because they were always working from the shadows, it would make sense that they were the ones to write it and pen it as Joshua.
I don’t deny that some are only interpretations. Given that I believe Clive living makes the most sense from a writing perspective, I try to reason with less clear-cut aspects of the ending that would support and work with his survival being the case. I even open with disclaimers for some, such as Torgal’s howling, presenting both sides but then arguing why one interpretation works better to me. Not necessarily proving the other wrong, just showing how _I think_ one is vastly better than the other.
After the cut from the infirmary when Jill starts running, we see her running outside to the edge of the mess. She could not have taken hours on her trip from the infirmary to the mess.
I actually didn’t know that about Mythos. But I personally prefer the title to be made out of Clive’s statement representing “the end of Ultima’s hold over us, the culmination of our will” rather than just “Clive and Ultima”. More interpretations lol
The quill and Harpocrates’ request are not the reason alone. It is the in-world reason that enables Clive to do it, and everything else I mention works together to really make it seem possible.
Also, Dion does not have an arc about taking care of and saving himself. In fact, it’s kind of the opposite. He mentions himself that he doesn’t have much to come back to, but even if he were able to for Terrence and Harpocrates, I wonder if the regrets he has for the past would ever stop tormenting him. He seems very at peace with not coming back, and, based on his final dialogue, he is happy that he could be instrumental to stopping Ultima because of avenging his father, not because he saw that this would personally redeem himself and enable him to move forward free of his own remorse.
@@shodai2054 It's just that adding a lot of circumstancial/preferencial choices does not necessarily build a solid case, s'all.
These were my original thoughts, but the hard-core fans that want Joshua to be alive and Clive dead almost convinced me to believe in their fantasy.
Thank you for your video of reminding me that I'm not crazy.
The moon was high up in the sky when she started crying and she stopped when dawn broke. That implies there was a passage of time. Just cause we didn't see "X amount of time later" doesn't mean there wasn't one. Also Jill is still a dominant even if she can't fully utilise Shiva anymore. So she can sense whether Clive's alive or dead. I'm pretty certain the moon and star is just meant to represent them metaphorically. Also I feel you're not really taking into account the type of world they live in for a lot of your points, so it's sounding like what you would have liked to happen rather than what actually makes sense in the world setting.
Dominants specifically can only sense the aether of another Dominant’s eikon, not the Dominant themselves.
Kind of frustrating that developer still refuse to add content to the ending or define it and opted to write up open end in such a confusing way.
I hate it for over a decade ago, Tales of the Abyss ended up in a similar way, not disclosing whether the returning character is Luke or Asche and here we get FF16 ending undefined.
Hope the developers won't do that again in upcoming JRPG games.
One thing you're not considering, Yoshi P loves his tragedies, and has killed off quite a few main characters in FFXIV.
Side characters but not main characters.
@@takerweapon1 You mean Venat wasn't a main character? Minfilia?
@@Spyrit2011 Those I consider main characters whose death was needed to advance the story.
@@takerweapon1 How exactly does that change the fact that main characters in FFXIV had died?
Ideally, Joshua and Clive both lived. Joshua didn’t give Clive all his power, just some. Being the Phoenix, 🐦🔥well, you get the point.
What’s likely is that Clive died and Joshua lived. Clive is Joshua’s sworn protector and that little montage at the end further leans in on that. I feel like what Clive did at the end was give Joshua back a lot of his 🐦🔥powers so he would be able to come back from all the destruction.
The relationship between Joshua and Clive is a lot more important to the story than Clive and Jill. Clive failed to protect Joshua the first time, but he saved his brother and kept his promise to him in the end.
Clive is dead bro.
Nah
Or it’s all a story made up by Joshua Rosefield ☝️🤓
cope
Stop the cap, Clive is dead, you can’t survive the curse, played start to finish
Next dlc you play as Jill
There is 0 reason for everyone to think the ending is open to interpretation. We saw Terra survive and we saw Squall survive. Acting like Clive survived is literally ignoring the ending.
If a star fades out to show something it is not to be ignored.
If Clive says his body cannot hold Ultima's power it is not to be ignored.
If Clive, Joshua and Ultima's powe together can cast Raise to bring Joshua back it is not to be ignored.
This is as stupid - not your video but people's mindsets - as when all the Brittenham fanboys claimed Jenova was behind everything because we got to know it was her body and they ignored every textbox right after that where it was said that it was all Sephiroth's doing and his will.
The fact of the matter is, there is nothing in the ending that says it is not to be taken for face value. Jill not crying at one point is not unequivocal. I am the first one to admit "x means that" but the reality is it is wishful thinking. I will not take the ending as Clive gaving survived the power of a God releasing from his body unless we get an actual statement.
Actual statement from the director that it’s open-ended: reddit.com/r/FFXVI/s/TyQimGZTG3
The devs and voice actors have confirmed multiple times the ending is open to interpretation, lmfao
This comment is quite comedic with the whole "zero reason" while there are plenty of reasons to believe that, including the fact that the devs were like "lulz, it's purposefully unclear, deal with it"....ok, that line from them was annoying, I won't lie.
My (wishful) thoughts: I think Clive and Josh indeed both died. It was the end of an era, so to speak, and all could truly start anew. The sun rising illustrates this as well, and Jill's smile could be the bittersweet knowing of this success.
However, Josh and Clive are NOT "gone"; Jill and Jote are both pregnant. Jill gives birth to Clive's daughter, who goes on with Cid's daughter to complete their fathers' mission. Jote gives birth to Joshua's son, whom she gives his father's name. He goes on to pen the book.
If you think Clive should have lived at the end of FFXVI then you didn’t understand the story or what Clive stood for.
Holy shit. I literally just got into an argument the ending and listed all these points. Then watched your video only to reaffirm that he’s alive.
I thought that the phoenix feathe would become phoenix down and revive joshua, maybe it would work on clive
I wish they would’ve let us have the happy ending 🥲
biggest cope unfortunately, myself wants him to survive, but you are overinterpreting things a lot.
The biggest reason the book is named after Joshua is because it is already written before then went to Origins. That's all. The name of the book is just cheap writing.
All the rest and his arc showed he should die. He has to. He literally passes the WHOLE ending arc of other characters to prepare them for the world to come, a world where he won't be here.
That's all.
Eh... How can the book be written before the origin fight and yet it includes the origin fight?
show me when this specified.
@@DarthPingu07
The book's title, Clive's voice narrating the story as seen at the very beginning and ending, the children mentioning "The Saint and the Sectary", Clive's favorite play, Harpocrates giving him the quill to write his own story one that, there are far far too many hints to count them all.
all the hint you've bringing are meaningless to be said and they don't make much sense in the end.
Again, there is one thing that is true and Clive said it :
"Ultima's power was too much for this receptacle"
That's all to be said. Clive can't survive, the reste is pure interpretation.
That's my pov. Again, it's up to the ending to have an open interpretation. You are maybe right, and it's made to never have the answer. @@Leonhart_93
@@netherlim They introduced the "Ultima power is too much" thing at the last second in order to bring up the stakes and make the ending unclear. Otherwise, no one would ever believe Clive would have died just by falling into the sea and the ending wouldn't be unclear at all.