I saw another take on that Lan and Moiraine moment when she says that she never thought about killing herself and Lan smiles and says "That's what I thought." The idea is that it was confiming to him that, as nearly every Aes Sadia who was stilled killed themselves and Moiraine never contemplated it, maybe she wasn't stilled, maybe she was just shielded.
My heart is hurting for Moiraine and Siuan. The whole thing was brutal. Siuan went full on Amyrlin with her. Siuan is either hurt physically, broken bones, or shielded. Egwene braiding her hair reminded me of what Nynaeve told her , to be a woman is to always be alone and never alone. Looking forward to Moiraine bale firing a Forsaken or two
@@kelseycarter161 I believe at this point Siuan suspected that Moiraine and Lan are darkfriends. She was able to shield Rand, threw Lan across the yard. She did what she had to do as Amyrlin. That being said I am not diminishing the impact of the forceful way she used to do it. It wasn’t easy for her to evoke the oath, her eyes were tearful
I lean more towards the idea that Siuan is broken psychologically and/or politically. Her downfall is right around the corner. Physically wouldn't make any sense. That wouldn't have any lasting ramifications because Healing. As for shielded, Lanfear didn't do anything that looked like a shield when she channeled at her.
@@conlinrevan1384 I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think Min’s vision has come to be true yet. I’d love to see Moiraine and Siuan an endgame but there is a lot of other things to happen….
I loved the switch back and forth between Egwene and Renna showing Egwene's power and the how the Seanchan use channelers as weapons, caged and controlled with Rand and his conversation with Siuan and Siuan basically telling him that the Tower is going to use him as a weapon that they control and he'll be caged. Both Egwene and Rand will not channel on their own, they are to be told what to do and when and very much under control and caged. Powerful storytelling there! It should be interesting with certain events in the tower later. Loved this episode sooo much!
Watching this it hit me that Lan asking Moiraine about whether she thought about ending it was Lan probing for a solution. He already had a hunch and so he broached the subject, got his response, then went to confirm with Logain.
Maybe Siuan is being manipulated in her dreams. In S01E06, Siuan suggest taking Rand and others to Eye of the World as she has been dreaming about Dark one being weak and we all saw how that ended. Now this sudden change in Siuan’s behaviour and her sudden change in tactics regarding handling of Dragon Reborn doesn’t add up. Also, in this episode Lanfear mentioned a broken Amyrlin being more useful than dead one. We know this is possible because (SPOLERS AHEAD FOR BOOK 14) a certain Forsaken using Compulsion from TAR on Great Captains (which I still think is one the the more brilliant and effective plan by a Forsaken who are generally ‘couldn’t execute a plan even if under Compulsion’😂😂😂)
Dream manipulation has actually been theorized in the books as well for why she was so on-board with the Eye of the World thing. Here's my problem with that take. WHO is manipulating her dreams? All the involved awake dreamwalkers want Rand in Falme. And I understand trying to get him to mistrust Aes Sedai, but we suddenly have him trusting 3 Aes Sedai more than he did in the books. Unless it's just Lanfear being petty, trying to make Rand "owe" her. My problem with it being Lanfear is that it's not really in character for her to have masterstrokes when she's petty. That's more Ishy's game. But Ishy seems certain it's all over and Rand's gonna turn in S2E8. So unless Moghedien is free and Ishy (who freed Lanfear) doesn't know, who could it be?
Exactly. I was pretty sure Ishamael was messing with Siuan in the first season to get her onboard with the Eye of the World quest. I would not be surprised if Ishamael or Lanfear are still messing with her dreams. Add to that all the political pressure on her in the Tower, and her attitude toward Rand and Moiraine in the episode make more sense. They EotW was a big flop, and they have made no progress in six months.
@@christianrapper She never said by whom she was told to watch the boy. And even the next sentence, "This is an order". After which she tells Leane to give the shield weave to her.
@@pemryjanes5789 we never see anyone tell Verin to watch the boy is my point. This is a tv show. Everything doesn’t have to necessarily be spoon fed to you. However, when lying is a clue to the black ajah then they need to have a scene showing any previously Aes Sedai telling Verin “to watch the boy.”
I'm wondering how we just saw Moiraine and Co. leave with Lanfear and nobody sees the impending accusation of darkfriend... Among the many things that Siuan will interperet as betrayals, towards the very top of the list is the seemingly obvious conclusion that Moiraine is colluding with Lanfear (I mean, technically she is...) and even beyond that, that she has delivered The Dragon to the Forsaken. Moiraine is marked and things with The Tower won't go well for her from here.
It will be interesting to find out who all connects Lanfear with Moiraine/Rand/Lan. Siuan saw them go into the Waygate together. Will she tell the rest of the Aes Sedai? It is clear that Moraine could be accused of being a darkfriend, just for escaping with Rand if nothing else. Will the Tower split with half thinking Moiraine has turned, and maybe Siuan is guilty by association. I am guessing we will have to find out in season 3.
I love how tricksy Verin is when she swaps places with Leane. Nothing she said was a lie: "The Amyrlin requires your strength to protect Cairhien. I've been told to watch the boy. This is an order Leane Sedai. I'll take his shield." First sentence was just a true statement about how the Amyrlin probably needed Leane's strength in the efforts to protect the city. It did not say she was requested or summoned it was just a statement of fact. The second sentence was probably true. Didn't Moiraine tell her to watch Rand back when they were having their conversation earlier this season? This is an order is probably just because Verin is stating it. She never said it was an order from Siuan. HA! Oh the mighty threads of deception that words can weave.
Thinking on it, i like what they did with Barthanes. From a show only perspective we've seen Dana the Darkfriend (killed by Thom to protect the boys.) Liandrin, nobody knows but Verin suspects. And now Barthanes. And we are seeing that Darkfriends are dealt with harshly. They aren't coddled, we don't get a show trial, we don't see family trying to protect them. They're locked up and executed. Book perspective we have seen Darkfriends and suspected Darkfriends are ill trusted in the community. But this is first we are seeing in the show.
@@ashleyien1222Oh dear, now I’m worried about Anvaere’s safety. She has two things against her now in Liandrin’s book - she’s Moiraine’s sister AND she’s wise to Liandrin being a Darkfriend.
@@catc8927 I don't think Liandrin knows that she knows yet... (Might find out when she hears Barthanes was arrested for being a darkfriend). 😅 I have a feeling we won't get anything else about it until Season 3... since there's only one episode left.
Seriously, I had one bad concussion in my 20’s and it took me literally years to recover from the effects. Let’s hope Yellow Ajah Healing prevents CTE.
Why the heck everybody wants to wash Eggy?!? Lanfear burning down the foregate is just like in the books, here she is just a little bit more obvious ;)
I think Lanfear meant that Siuan was a broken Amyrlin symbolically. Her power is greatly weakened now that everyone will know that she had the Dragon Reborn and lost him. It's set up for the Tower coup next season.
Notice the Weave Moiraine use to open/close the Waygate? The Three-folded weave, same icon as the chapters. Instead of the Avendesora-key they are not using Avendesora-weaves to open the gate.
With regards to ogier and dacovale, it's like finding a needle in a haystack. I've found something about it being explained in a path of daggers chapter 23. Karede explains The deathwatch guards were dacovale but the gardeners were not marked or owned, but that was between them and the empress.
As always your reactions are a joy to beold. I love how in the show they have managed to make Rand indireclty responsible for the burning of the Foregate, something he indireclty contributed to in the books as well albeit it in differnt circumstances. Seeing Moiraine freed was a relief. I was a bit shocked that Lan did not honour the implied deal with Logain and give him the key but then i remembered Steppin was his friend and what Logain did effectivly led to his death. So there is no love lost there.. You can really feel their hearts breaking when first Suian does what she thinks is her duty by forcing Moirane to obey and then Moiraine is forced to do her duty and abandone the woman who she might be angry with but still loves. As for Lanfear, seeing her in that outfit casually murdering anthing she feel like then oh so casually batting Siuan aside, I'm starting to understand Mat Hatch's shall we say fondness for the character. I was a bit dissapointed that everyone seemily can shield Rand but you are correct. He might be super powerful but he has next to no control and it makes sense that he needs to build up to the point where it will take a full team of Aes Sedai to even stand a chance of shielding him. As for the way it ends, talk about an awkard journey our merry band will be facing next episode with Lanfear. Of course it woudl be cool if she dropped some lore about the ways etc. As to your quesiton about Siuan, BOOK SPOILERS i gather we might be getting the Tower coup in Season 3. if Siuan was stilled there woud be no need to overthrow her as I would presume you have to be able to channel to be the Amyrlin. Then again Sarah the book consultant did say in a Q&A recently that in the books a woman can only sense the ability and stength of another female channeler who is touching the source. So in theory an Aes Sedai could hide the fact that she had been stilled from the other sisters as long as she is not in a situation where she has to but is unable to channel. That seems a bit far fetched to have Siuan hiding her stilling. My guess is that she has suffered some blunt force trauma and possibly some internal injuries that the Yellows might struggle to heal.
I think we saw a hint of the madness to come: when Rand says words to the effect of “I will not live in your cage,“ we don’t hear just one voice, we hear two, both saying the same thing. Our first glimpse of LTT?
That scene between Moraine and Suiane missed a big opportunity. M should have reminded S that "The Wheel weaves as _it_ wills", showing her own growth and understanding of the situation they're in.
Well one thing they did not miss in that scene was another chance to show their incompetent writing with a shot of the surroundings of Tar Valon that are simultaneously snow free with clear sunny skies AND snow covered from blizzard conditions. Supposedly in the same place on the same day at the SAME TIME LOOOL
@@Dave3Dman I wasn't paying quite that close attention. Yeah, that's an error, but not something I'd hold against then too much. I do have occasional problems with the show, but I definitely wouldn't say their writing is incompetent. It's mostly good, often great and even occasionally fantastic. There are definitely points when it's bad, and choices they make that piss me off. But I can forgive those for the overall feel that it _is_ a Wheel of Time story. The whole Egwene thread is excellent. So is Verin's writing. I don't always like how much time is spent on certain characters, but they are usually written well. And we have to remember that RJ himself occasionally did the same thing--spent what felt like an excessive amount of time on side plots. Anyway, this episode had a few points that upset me, but overall Season 2 has been excellent and I'm willing to hold my ire and give them the benefit of the doubt for now on the things I didn't like.
@@ryadinstormblessed8308 So you would not call it incompetent the way they ham handedly orchestrated the needlessly elaborate and now defunct plot line between Ishy Mat and Min having Mat and Min meet in the most ridiculously contrived way that was attempting to masque as an ingenious plot, so she could bring him to Falme, only for him to end up literally getting yeeted to Falme INSTANTLY and with zero effort or explanation which rendered the entire previous plot line completely pointless and nonsensical.
And this is considering it was 100% non book material invented by the writers which took up so much time and turned out to be completely pointless and was done instead of adapting actual book material
I think only Siuane and LeAnn are aware of the Dragon in town, which is why they are the only 2 we see with him(outside of Verin) - and this keeping it all a secret will be the grounds for events in the next season.
Lanfear broke Siuan's spirit, showing that there was nothing there before the followers of the Dark One. She left her alive to give Liandrin another reason to displace her - the Dragon left. In the book, Siuan was removed because from the Reds' point of view she did nothing to lead the Dragon Matt. I hope that the tea is not a replacement for Tyr's terangreal.
ep6 may have had the most stunning sequences of the show so far, but this episode is the best episode overall imv. Fantastic from beginning to end. I just wish Lan had taken a different path to this point. I love that they're showing us his other sides-not just a stone cold killing machine but also a loving friend and a meganerd. I am so psyched for ep8!!!
Great video! I missed that Maigan was in the line of damane being trained. Re Anvaere -- not only does she face that her son is a Darkfriend, but also it will be a blow to her to realise that everything she thought she had achieved by hard work and diplomacy was actually mostly her son making a bargain. :( It also hadn't occured to me that Anvaere now knows that Liandrin is a Darkfriend....I wonder how this will play out? Maybe Verin will visit her and tell her a story that will believe she needs to keep the secret?
No woman could remove that shield...they can't see the weaves. So it HAD to be a man Lezbi Nerdy. Ishy wasn't going to do it so it had to be Rand at this stage.
You brought an ear-to-ear smile to my face when you said "ta'veren" in your Ogier voice.😁 Yeah, having Siuan untie Moiraine's shield would've fit metaphorically well with Siuan's net untangling from S1E6.🧵 It's one theory that got away ... 🐟
Mat did know Ishy from his dreams. Renna does die in the books to a crossbow bolt, fleeing Valen Luca's traveling Menagerie. I was right about about Rand freeing Moiraine.
I get that women and men can undo each other's weaves in the book... but I think it makes more sense for them not to be able to do that since they aren't supposed to be able to even see those weaves. I'm really curious whether the show will revert back to how the book does it or be different on this topic.
I sincerely hope they find another way of getting people where they need to be WITHOUT using head trauma. Everyone's probably got multiple concussions from how often they get knocked tf out
14:50 I think they wanted to introduce Ji'i'Toh really well. I took this as her removing Toh for being captured. She wasn't touched while holding a weapon so she didn't become Gai'Shian. But she got captured, maybe defied orders or something. She keeps getting up because she feels her Toh is great and as we know she is very prideful.
An episode of sacrifice. Moraine and her sister made big sacrifices. And even Lanfear, made a small sacrifice of her wishes for Rand at the end. Excellent episode.
At the end of the episde, Siuan accuses Moiraine of lying about being Stilled. We now know that she was never stilled, but Siuan don't. In her eyes Moiraine just lied, breaking the Oath to tell no word that is untrue, and she followed a Forsaken into the Ways together with Rand. I think they are setting up a plot for where Siuan thinks Moiraine is a Darkfriend and Black Ajah due to being able to lie, refusing Tower law and following a Forsaken. I guess she did use Moiraine's Oath to obey Siuan from S1 Ep6 to make her close the Waygate so at least that oath would still be in place (unless she thinks Moiraine just acted to save time until Lanfear appeared). EDIT: With Moiraine's nephew being outed as a Darkfriend it will add up nicelywith Siuan thinking Moiraine is a bit shady as well.
Hi Lezbi! My thoughts are that Siuan needs to get Stilled by order of the Hall, or else Salidar and the rest makes no sense whatsoever. I think Lanfear will try to manipulate Siuan not realizing just what a political mess Siuan is currently facing in the Hall of the Tower already with discontent and Red support growing. Once Lanfear sees just how useless Siuan actually is she'll throw her to the wolves to let the Lord of Chaos reign in the Tower, and just move on with her designs on Rand. Siuan will be brought down in the Tower by the Red Ajah through internal politics, same as in the Books. We need to see the fact on screen that the White Tower for one reason or another remains its own worst enemy, same as it was since the Age of Legends.
RE: Suian I think she's "broken" because now the Tower is going to drag her down because she lost the dragon reborn and a bunch of Cairhein burnt while she was there.
I agree with you there. Her motivation for being there with 14 (not sure why this number...) sisters was to proclaim the dragon and show the world they had him in their pocket. Instead of that the city burned, she got wooped by LF, she lost the dragon 🐉 and the love of her life. I saw it as a look of hopeless realization of her situation.
I like the idea I’ve seen around today that Suian is under compulsion, probably by Lanfear. She was acting so out of character and her switch to deciding it was right for the Tower to control the Dragon was so out there. And she blamed Moiraine for screwing up at the Eye of the World when that debacle was just as much her fault as Moiraine’s.
She isn’t under compulsion but she is acting out of character. Lanfear putting Siuane under compulsion to keep Rand in the makes no sense and goes counter to her goals. Lanfear couldn’t predict that Rand would come to her for help. He might have found another way out for all she knew.
I was also offended on Lan’s behalf when Logain dissed him as not being worthy of playing a “gentleman’s game.” Bro, you’re talking to the frickin King of Malkier here, he out-gentlemans you, minor Ghealdanin nobility! Anvaere turning in her own son showed a bit of where she’s similar to Moiraine - ironclad commitment to the Light and what’s right and wrong, above familial connections, even at great emotional cost to themselves.
I would have liked Egwene to see what already broken damane were like, to fuel her rage. But I liked this episode a lot. One thing - just how Anvaere recognized that Moiraine was panicking and unsure what to do, I think we can apply the same to Siuan and her actions here. The Dragon Reborn is real, no longer just a concept, the Forsaken are walking around and the only ally she thought she was sure of has been keeping secrets. Her mental state is obvious just by her saying Moiraine lied to her about beingstilled, which she's aware is impossible unless darkfriend, and besides Lan was the one that said it anyway, not Moiraine.
Well, that's going to be a fun little road trip through the ways!! No way Lanfear stilled Siuan, she has too much contempt for modern Aes Sedai to think she would need to bother. She just cut her weaves and flung her away. She clearly never thought about a need to shield Moiraine either. I mean, there we're (after Moiraine was unshielded) 16 full sisters in the city and Lanfear just strolled through, causing mayhem on the way.
I’m bothered by Siuan’s sudden turn against Moraine.😢 I feel like she would have more compassion for her difficult situation and understand why it was hard to tell her or anyone about it.
What she did is dirty. It is using and asserting your power over someone else in a borderline abusive way. It sounds like something a Elaida a Liandrin would do.
Theory: the last scene between Siuan and Morane is the Mechanism/reasoning that they will no longer be in a relationship between the two of them and they end up marrying Gareth Byrne Thom Merrlin as in the books?
@@finman123 Yeah, it has always bothered me with RJ writing that girls start off as “pillow friends” but seam to grow out of it, unless you are a red sister then gay for life and probably a power hungry evil woman. Very messed up immature view of sexuality, always wondered if he was trying to push the lines but it was the afraid to go all the way because it was the ‘90’s.
I explained at the end. Long story short, does everyone not remember this is done in the books?? If you are skilled you can unweave something from the “other power”, it happens in the books.
@@LezbiNerdy Yeah... but Suian? Not nearly skilled powerful enough IMO, but maybe that's just me. Elayne, Nynaeve or Egwene maybe, but not Suian. IMO at least. :)
Part of me wants to think that's "Laman's Sin" throne, the one carved from Avendoraldera. Or at least in my mind. Probably not though as that would be in the Throne Room.
Pretty sure Lanfear didn't still Siuanne, just overpowered her. The show has given a clearer reason for the schism in the Tower than the books do. Lanfear knows she has fundamentally undermined Siuann's authority by taking Rand, and understands what it's going to result in.
Is it possible (I am guessing not based on the depth of emotion) that Suane and Moiraine planned this together from the start to 'trick' Lanfear into allowing Moiraine to follow? It could be the 'Game of Houses' type deception the episode was named for? And the deception runs so deep, the other Aes Sedai want to depose Suane, resulting in the Aes Sedai war?
I’m now terrified for Anvaere. Liandrin’s going to know something was up when she finds out Barthanes was caught, and Anvaere was the only one in a position to get Barthanes in that much trouble.
@@catc8927 Will Liandrin know it was her? Maybe if she looks into it, but maybe she just will think Barthanes failed and got caught. Depends how much she pays attention. I have a feeling we won't find out until next season.... I hope the wait isn't too long.
It’s his first time being shielded so he doesn’t know that he should be defending against anything like that. She is powerful and skilled enough to shield and an experienced Rand
In that cold open, Moiraine and Siuan are supposed to be full Aes Sedai, right? I'm guessing they should be around 50ish? I wish they'd had Matt unconsciously speaking in the Old Tongue from time to time since season 1. That would have been so easy to do and so useful in the future. Lan knowing more than Moiraine about the power irritated me. But it's ok, I guess. They needed to resolve this conflict they made. I feel it was not that useful in the show though. They needed more _time_ to flesh this all out...
Lan knowing more about the power than Moiraine and Logain. That is my least favorite scene so far this season. I was not buying what they were selling.
THIS COMMENT MAY CONTAIN SOME BOOK SPOILERS. I tried not to mention many details, but it may still spoil some things that are coming. * * * * * I can't remember any mention in the books about what the Tower laws said the Amyrlin Seat is supposed to do when the Dragon is reborn, but I do remember that what Siuan said in the show is what a certain Red sister planned to do. I think they made it as a part of Tower laws for that plot. We know that the Reds act as Tower Law enforcers. I also think that the event in early s3 will be the result of Siuan not immediately following the Tower laws, which resulted in the Dragon Reborn escaping to Falme with a Forsaken. About Lanfear stilling Siuan, that's a good theory. But I don't think Lanfear did it. She said a broken Amyrlin is more useful to her than a dead one. If she stilled Siaun, then technically she's no longer Amyrlin, and she'll be as useless to Lanfear as if she's dead. Also, we know what will happen in early s3. That will only happen if Siuan still holds the Seat. Which brings us again to the fact that the Forsaken have their own individual motives and schemes. So I don't think it will be Lanfear who will initiate the event, but another Forsaken, most probably Ishy.
Siuane is definitely not stilled, not sure how you got that. I think she's hurt and has lost face in with the Tower. Moiraine and Siuane were sent by the Amyrlin to tell Gitara the war was over, they mentioned it to her before the Foretelling. Do we think Mat was actually seeing past/future lives or did Ishy just give him a bad trip to manipulate him?
I literally hate Siuan right now. She took something that Moiraine meant to be intimate and beautiful, and made it perverted. No one should ever be forced to do something against their will. That is a form of slavery, and I thought that Siuan was above that. And then they wonder why Moiraine doesn’t trust anyone. Plus there is the moment when she took Moirain’s trama and threw it in her face.
I've been wondering why they still her. Being overpowered and outdone by Lanfear is hardly a deposing offense. She's bloody Lanfear. Most Aes Sedai probably have nightmares about her. She could easily come out looking like she was always on the "right side" of things. But her behavior towards Moiraine could come out, and does amount to compulsion. Maybe Moiraine will be Siuan's downfall, too.
I think she might be deposed at least partially due to incompetence, for letting Rand go after she made a big deal about having enough Aes Sedai to keep him controlled. Even though it wasn’t made public yet, at least some of the Aes Sedai who where there know of that reason. Some other more personal stuff might come up too.
Smuggy McSmugerson there, good job on your predictions from Smug Mountain! 😁 Do you think Siuan was being compelled? Her attitude and violation of Moiraine's free will seemed a little over the top to me. Maybe I just don't want her to throw away any chance of her future with Moiraine! Ahhh, this show! Next week is gonna be amazing ( I hope!)
I think Siuan was under compulsion. Lanfear says "A broken amyrlin suits me better" and smiles, it is not imposible that Lanfear planned all of those events, and planned to kill Moiraine at the end. Rand intervenes and saves Moiraine Lanfear values being in Rands good grace higher than killing a stilled Aes Sedai. Lanfear has no clue Moiraine is not shielded anymore since she never used the power infront of her.
I can't remember, but in the books didn't the female Aes Sedai need to learn about unweaving men's weaves from Nyneave who learned it from Moghedien? That's probably my mixing things up, but I thought that they had to learn it. From who and when I can't remember. The women can't see men's weaves which is why no one knew Moiraine was shielded when she was in the Tower surrounded by Aes Sedai. Suian wouldn't have known how to do it. The show had to first establish that they could sense the weave on Moiraine.
I really liked this episode (I need it some wins after last episode). I was so happy to see Lan figure things out and be reunited with Moiraine 😊 (also Alanna and Verin coming to help them). I was surprised that Matt was dragged to Falme, I was hoping for him to help free Rand this episode. Do this means there will not be "flicker flicker"? I'm fine with that but some fans will riot 🤭.
I was wondering about that too. It seems like this 'tea' that Ishy gives him is a nod to flicker flicker. Doesn't look like we get the portal stones which is fine to me
I’m at the Logain part of the smugness. I totally thought of how sad you must have been to have Rand do it himself, and the rift between Moiraine and Suiann, when I watched.
Re your lighting during at least the part where Perrin and Avi are walking with Bain and Chiad talking about why she had Toh. This scene was very clear to me (I watch on a 4k HD tv) so I would say it is an issue with your tv/laptop ability to see certain light/dark.
I wonder what's going to happen with Verin. The sitters might blame Siuan for losing the dragon, but Siuan will be blaming Verin for working with Moiraine to free him. And in the books, the justification to depose Siuan was stronger, but not in the show.
It actually was not strong in the books at all. Because, in those Siuan was doing what Moiraine was saying to her in the throne room. There was no justification for stilling book Siuan, especially after Rand is literally holding Callandor, which is concrete proof to the world that he is the Dragon Reborn. The only reason, is Elaida, a Red sister was not aware of the foretelling, and basically used rumour to take her down, and the Shadow took advantage to break the Tower completely. As for the books, later ones make it very clear that Siuan was deposed as Amyrlin with the smallest number of Sitters, one of them Black, and it was an illegal vote because the Black Sitter's vote was invalid.
Also loved the Nynaeve "Your name sings in his ears, now get up!" moment. 😆 I've been thinking since s1 that this whole "the darkness of Mat" thing has been a giant red herring, and every episode in s2 has only made me think it more. Moiraine was *wrong* about a bunch of things in s1, and she handed Mat over to imprisonment by Darkfriends with how wrong she was about him! And the other people pushing the "Mat's totally gonna turn" agenda were Padan Fain and Ishamael, two of the absolute least trustworthy people in the world. Mat's made no choices at all this season. From imprisonment to manipulation to imprisonment, he's been passed from hand to hand with Ishy pulling the strings, working to break him down and make him despair. From a Doylist perspective: Ishy's plan working would be the most boring story choice available. From a Watsonian perspective: we keep being TOLD Mat has *omg such darkness!!!* in him, but we have never once been SHOWN it. He hasn't hurt anyone or made any evil choices. What we've been shown, over and over, is that he loves his friends and he doubts himself. Ishy's going to be dramatically proven wrong about Mat. So are all the viewers who believed the Father of Lies about how dark and doomed Mat is. He's going to finally, for maybe the first time since early s1, make an actual choice - and it's going to be a heroic one. Possibly involving a certain Horn. (And he's not going to be on board for breaking the Wheel and destroying the world. His sisters live in that world!)
Though given the origins of the name a'dam and the whole collar/leash connection... I have to wonder if the show threw in that mouth cover to be a ball gag.
Book spoiler** If siuan is shielded, with it tied off, aes sedai would see it and rediscover tying off weaves..... UNLESS this is going to be the first example of inverted weaves that cant be seen. (I think that's what it was called. Many years since i read the books)
I vote Siuan is knocked out with a head bleed. Her rule is broken, though. She had the Dragon Reborn and let him go. Also half of Cairhien burned under his watch.
Lanfear and Ishmael have me rooting for the dark 😅 I love their portrayals to the point they are overshadowing the EF 5 and the main cast for the light
I don't think Siuan is stilled as some are suggesting. The show has done a good job making the Forsaken as scary as possible, but Lan was right all along about how despite their great power, they do have limits. Ishamael didn't still Moiraine, so it is very unlikely that Lanfear stilled Siuan. Siuan, however, has a lot of enemies in the tower, which they set up in this episode, and her influence amongst the Aes Sedai is going to be greatly reduced after she lost the Dragon Reborn, especially given how Moiraine's actions are going to look from the outside. A lot of people are acting as if Siuan is somehow now a villain, but from her perspective at the Waygate, from beginning to end, she could easily think that Moiraine could possibly even be a Darkfriend. I don't think she will, because she loves her and knows her well, but it's some juicy drama that fleshes out both characters in really interesting ways.
I also don't think Siuan is stilled... Yet. I suspect the fact she let Rand escape will be reason enough for the Hall to depose her, though I don't think this will happen until the beginning of Season 3.
I have a couple of questions. 1) After the beating Renna gave Egwene last episode, does it make sense she’s letting her rebel by braiding her hair and saying she’ll kill her? 2) Once someone is actually cut off from the source, can they still see the weaves. Or is it Logain’s Talent?
When Siuan Sanche tells Rand that she is suppose to cage the Dragon Reborn and use him as their weapon, how is that different from what the Seanchan do to the Damane? Taking away someone's agency is never a good thing.
Commenting for algo. One of the things I noticed about people who thought Moirraine was stilled is they typically didn't like the show very much. If you're jamming to the song Rafe is singing you can anticipate what he's doing pretty good. Otherwise....
I'm a book reader, but I don't remember if this was ever discussed. I never thought about it before watching this episode either. Is the oath road somehow connected with Compulsion? Like, was the rod made from the knowledge of the weaves? Or maybe the rod was an inspiration for discovering the weaves? Consider the idea of the Aes Sesai being so comparatively clueless about the power compared to channelers before the breaking, that they're unknowingly using forbidden weaves on everyone who makes it to full sisterhood.
Well the Oath Rod (AoL: binding rod) was made during the time when true Compulsion was common, at least as a crime. Considering wilders and young channelers develop a crude form of mental manipulation, it's likely Compulsion, a weave that many are inclined to gravitate to, is the inspiration for the Oath Rod during the time of its invention as a punishment tool. Aes Sedai nowadays are clueless and to quote a Forsaken 'punish themselves like criminals'. And true Compulsion is what's forbidden, most Aes Sedai retain some form of mental manipulation from childhood. Even the Blues have a secret 'Fear' weave that can be used on humans.
It's not explicitly discussed, but I feel like the Rod is different than Compulsion. A strong will can fight against Compulsion, where as the Oaths sworn are iron clad, to the point that having conflicting Oaths can actually kill someone (for example, swearing an Oath to obey, then being ordered to lie, can end up with them literally choking to death on the words).
First off, I really appreciate that you do actual episode reactions instead of just reviews. I haven't been able to find a lot of reactions to the show other than EDN who I love. I don't know where this idea of Siuan being shielded/stilled is even coming from, though I've seen it from several people. Lanfear hits her with air. It doesn't look anything like shielding which we've seen a lot in the show. Seems far more likely she's broken psychologically and/or politically. Her downfall is coming soon. After her heel turn in this episode I don't think the Tower coup is going to feel nearly as tragic as it does in the books. I have a feeling non-readers are likely cheering for her downfall after this episode. Not sure how I feel about this change. I think I don't hate it. It made sense after the way they played up her and Moiraine's relationship as compared to the books. They needed to give that relationship a definitive end instead of the way it just fizzles away and isn't mentioned anymore in the books. I don't love that they've made Siuan behave like Elaida, but I think it will work for the show.
I don’t love the Siuan not backing Moraine choice so far, if the tower was more fleshed out it could have been played better with plotting. The constant sniping between the women in the books grated on me almost as much as the whole men can never understand women joke that just feels like an embarrassing uncle talking. Overall though this season is a massive improvement
SPOILERS A theory on Siuane. I wonder if that confrontation did end up with her stilled. That would setup Elaida replacing her without some of the rest of that story arch. I don't think too many book fans would like it, myself included, but it might let them cut out a lot of stuff they don't think they need. Also, I don't think we've seen or heard that Siuane has a warder...
I saw another take on that Lan and Moiraine moment when she says that she never thought about killing herself and Lan smiles and says "That's what I thought." The idea is that it was confiming to him that, as nearly every Aes Sadia who was stilled killed themselves and Moiraine never contemplated it, maybe she wasn't stilled, maybe she was just shielded.
It also calls back to last episode, when he asked if they thought the forsaken could do things our aes sedai couldn't anymore, (like tying off)
My dad has done martial arts his whole life, he taught me Cat Crosses the Courtyard almost 30 years ago! That is an actual principle in martial arts!
Keep the goose loose!
Too bad they didn't show it in the show
My heart is hurting for Moiraine and Siuan. The whole thing was brutal. Siuan went full on Amyrlin with her.
Siuan is either hurt physically, broken bones, or shielded.
Egwene braiding her hair reminded me of what Nynaeve told her , to be a woman is to always be alone and never alone.
Looking forward to Moiraine bale firing a Forsaken or two
My heart hurts for Moiraine but not Siuan. It would not have happened to her if she would’ve just let them go and not forced Moiraine to be her slave
@@kelseycarter161 I believe at this point Siuan suspected that Moiraine and Lan are darkfriends. She was able to shield Rand, threw Lan across the yard. She did what she had to do as Amyrlin. That being said I am not diminishing the impact of the forceful way she used to do it. It wasn’t easy for her to evoke the oath, her eyes were tearful
I lean more towards the idea that Siuan is broken psychologically and/or politically. Her downfall is right around the corner. Physically wouldn't make any sense. That wouldn't have any lasting ramifications because Healing. As for shielded, Lanfear didn't do anything that looked like a shield when she channeled at her.
Yh, I think Min vision was wrong, this was Suian downfall, not Moirarine. Am still thinking they will both be Endgame. Am a romantic 😊
@@conlinrevan1384 I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think Min’s vision has come to be true yet.
I’d love to see Moiraine and Siuan an endgame but there is a lot of other things to happen….
This episode was so good. And it is hilarious how everyone had a "KITTY!" reaction during that one scene
there was a cat in the episode?
@@csarmiiplease that was the highlight of the episode for me 😂
@@csarmii it was the scene when Falme heard and felt Egwene channeling.
Egwene's channeling is so powerful that it even wakes up a sleeping cat all the way in Falme. It was easy to miss.
Lanfear is just perfect, giving dark mother realness
Note that if Moiraine had indeed been stilled, then she would be free to lie. That is something the Aes Sedai don't realize until later books.
I loved the switch back and forth between Egwene and Renna showing Egwene's power and the how the Seanchan use channelers as weapons, caged and controlled with Rand and his conversation with Siuan and Siuan basically telling him that the Tower is going to use him as a weapon that they control and he'll be caged. Both Egwene and Rand will not channel on their own, they are to be told what to do and when and very much under control and caged. Powerful storytelling there! It should be interesting with certain events in the tower later. Loved this episode sooo much!
Agree, I really liked this! I feel like Rand and Moiraine will have a bond of trust now, earlier than in the books.
Watching this it hit me that Lan asking Moiraine about whether she thought about ending it was Lan probing for a solution. He already had a hunch and so he broached the subject, got his response, then went to confirm with Logain.
Mat's trip was an exploration of self loathing which makes me think that Ishy was controlling Mat's vision.
Criminal you don’t get more views, you have a great understanding of the books, love the show, but are still critical. One of my favorite reviewers.
I was confused about the fake 3 fold land, too. Was really glad they dropped the line about it being “like home”
Maybe Siuan is being manipulated in her dreams. In S01E06, Siuan suggest taking Rand and others to Eye of the World as she has been dreaming about Dark one being weak and we all saw how that ended. Now this sudden change in Siuan’s behaviour and her sudden change in tactics regarding handling of Dragon Reborn doesn’t add up. Also, in this episode Lanfear mentioned a broken Amyrlin being more useful than dead one.
We know this is possible because (SPOLERS AHEAD FOR BOOK 14) a certain Forsaken using Compulsion from TAR on Great Captains (which I still think is one the the more brilliant and effective plan by a Forsaken who are generally ‘couldn’t execute a plan even if under Compulsion’😂😂😂)
Dream manipulation has actually been theorized in the books as well for why she was so on-board with the Eye of the World thing.
Here's my problem with that take. WHO is manipulating her dreams? All the involved awake dreamwalkers want Rand in Falme. And I understand trying to get him to mistrust Aes Sedai, but we suddenly have him trusting 3 Aes Sedai more than he did in the books. Unless it's just Lanfear being petty, trying to make Rand "owe" her.
My problem with it being Lanfear is that it's not really in character for her to have masterstrokes when she's petty. That's more Ishy's game. But Ishy seems certain it's all over and Rand's gonna turn in S2E8.
So unless Moghedien is free and Ishy (who freed Lanfear) doesn't know, who could it be?
Exactly. I was pretty sure Ishamael was messing with Siuan in the first season to get her onboard with the Eye of the World quest. I would not be surprised if Ishamael or Lanfear are still messing with her dreams. Add to that all the political pressure on her in the Tower, and her attitude toward Rand and Moiraine in the episode make more sense. They EotW was a big flop, and they have made no progress in six months.
Verin essentially said that the Amyrlin "requires your strength." Which is more of an opinion than a statement, so not a lie.
The second part is the lie. “I was told to watch the boy.”
@@christianrapper She never said by whom she was told to watch the boy. And even the next sentence, "This is an order". After which she tells Leane to give the shield weave to her.
@@christianrapper Told by who? Alanna or Moiraine could have said it.
@@annanz0118 “told by whom” is exactly my point. I don’t remember Moraine saying that to Verin in the show.
@@pemryjanes5789 we never see anyone tell Verin to watch the boy is my point. This is a tv show. Everything doesn’t have to necessarily be spoon fed to you. However, when lying is a clue to the black ajah then they need to have a scene showing any previously Aes Sedai telling Verin “to watch the boy.”
Lanfear looked amazing in Falme.
I'm wondering how we just saw Moiraine and Co. leave with Lanfear and nobody sees the impending accusation of darkfriend... Among the many things that Siuan will interperet as betrayals, towards the very top of the list is the seemingly obvious conclusion that Moiraine is colluding with Lanfear (I mean, technically she is...) and even beyond that, that she has delivered The Dragon to the Forsaken. Moiraine is marked and things with The Tower won't go well for her from here.
Thank you. I don't believe that Moiraine and Lan are dark friends, but surely everyone can't ignore that they left with Lanfear, a FORSAKEN...
It will be interesting to find out who all connects Lanfear with Moiraine/Rand/Lan. Siuan saw them go into the Waygate together. Will she tell the rest of the Aes Sedai? It is clear that Moraine could be accused of being a darkfriend, just for escaping with Rand if nothing else. Will the Tower split with half thinking Moiraine has turned, and maybe Siuan is guilty by association. I am guessing we will have to find out in season 3.
I love how tricksy Verin is when she swaps places with Leane. Nothing she said was a lie: "The Amyrlin requires your strength to protect Cairhien. I've been told to watch the boy. This is an order Leane Sedai. I'll take his shield." First sentence was just a true statement about how the Amyrlin probably needed Leane's strength in the efforts to protect the city. It did not say she was requested or summoned it was just a statement of fact. The second sentence was probably true. Didn't Moiraine tell her to watch Rand back when they were having their conversation earlier this season? This is an order is probably just because Verin is stating it. She never said it was an order from Siuan. HA! Oh the mighty threads of deception that words can weave.
Daes Dae'mar indeed!
Thinking on it, i like what they did with Barthanes.
From a show only perspective we've seen Dana the Darkfriend (killed by Thom to protect the boys.) Liandrin, nobody knows but Verin suspects. And now Barthanes. And we are seeing that Darkfriends are dealt with harshly. They aren't coddled, we don't get a show trial, we don't see family trying to protect them. They're locked up and executed.
Book perspective we have seen Darkfriends and suspected Darkfriends are ill trusted in the community. But this is first we are seeing in the show.
Though, now Barthanes' mother knows Liandrin is a darkfriend... I wonder if anything will come of that.
@@ashleyien1222Oh dear, now I’m worried about Anvaere’s safety. She has two things against her now in Liandrin’s book - she’s Moiraine’s sister AND she’s wise to Liandrin being a Darkfriend.
@@catc8927 I don't think Liandrin knows that she knows yet... (Might find out when she hears Barthanes was arrested for being a darkfriend). 😅 I have a feeling we won't get anything else about it until Season 3... since there's only one episode left.
How everyone manages all their repeated head trauma is beyond me.
Seriously, I had one bad concussion in my 20’s and it took me literally years to recover from the effects. Let’s hope Yellow Ajah Healing prevents CTE.
Why the heck everybody wants to wash Eggy?!? Lanfear burning down the foregate is just like in the books, here she is just a little bit more obvious ;)
I don't think Siuan is stilled, but losing the Dragon Reborn might be grounds for her fall.
I agree. I interpret "broken" as screwed/doomed.
I think Lanfear meant that Siuan was a broken Amyrlin symbolically. Her power is greatly weakened now that everyone will know that she had the Dragon Reborn and lost him. It's set up for the Tower coup next season.
Exactly.
Notice the Weave Moiraine use to open/close the Waygate?
The Three-folded weave, same icon as the chapters. Instead of the Avendesora-key they are not using Avendesora-weaves to open the gate.
You were merely born upon the slopes of Smug Mountain.
With regards to ogier and dacovale, it's like finding a needle in a haystack. I've found something about it being explained in a path of daggers chapter 23. Karede explains The deathwatch guards were dacovale but the gardeners were not marked or owned, but that was between them and the empress.
Remembering the fisherman's hut where Siuan and Moiraine met up in the first season broke my heart a little bit after this episode.
As always your reactions are a joy to beold. I love how in the show they have managed to make Rand indireclty responsible for the burning of the Foregate, something he indireclty contributed to in the books as well albeit it in differnt circumstances. Seeing Moiraine freed was a relief. I was a bit shocked that Lan did not honour the implied deal with Logain and give him the key but then i remembered Steppin was his friend and what Logain did effectivly led to his death. So there is no love lost there.. You can really feel their hearts breaking when first Suian does what she thinks is her duty by forcing Moirane to obey and then Moiraine is forced to do her duty and abandone the woman who she might be angry with but still loves. As for Lanfear, seeing her in that outfit casually murdering anthing she feel like then oh so casually batting Siuan aside, I'm starting to understand Mat Hatch's shall we say fondness for the character. I was a bit dissapointed that everyone seemily can shield Rand but you are correct. He might be super powerful but he has next to no control and it makes sense that he needs to build up to the point where it will take a full team of Aes Sedai to even stand a chance of shielding him. As for the way it ends, talk about an awkard journey our merry band will be facing next episode with Lanfear. Of course it woudl be cool if she dropped some lore about the ways etc.
As to your quesiton about Siuan, BOOK SPOILERS
i gather we might be getting the Tower coup in Season 3. if Siuan was stilled there woud be no need to overthrow her as I would presume you have to be able to channel to be the Amyrlin. Then again Sarah the book consultant did say in a Q&A recently that in the books a woman can only sense the ability and stength of another female channeler who is touching the source. So in theory an Aes Sedai could hide the fact that she had been stilled from the other sisters as long as she is not in a situation where she has to but is unable to channel. That seems a bit far fetched to have Siuan hiding her stilling. My guess is that she has suffered some blunt force trauma and possibly some internal injuries that the Yellows might struggle to heal.
I think we saw a hint of the madness to come: when Rand says words to the effect of “I will not live in your cage,“ we don’t hear just one voice, we hear two, both saying the same thing. Our first glimpse of LTT?
That scene between Moraine and Suiane missed a big opportunity. M should have reminded S that "The Wheel weaves as _it_ wills", showing her own growth and understanding of the situation they're in.
Well one thing they did not miss in that scene was another chance to show their incompetent writing with a shot of the surroundings of Tar Valon that are simultaneously snow free with clear sunny skies AND snow covered from blizzard conditions. Supposedly in the same place on the same day at the SAME TIME LOOOL
@@Dave3Dman I wasn't paying quite that close attention. Yeah, that's an error, but not something I'd hold against then too much.
I do have occasional problems with the show, but I definitely wouldn't say their writing is incompetent. It's mostly good, often great and even occasionally fantastic. There are definitely points when it's bad, and choices they make that piss me off. But I can forgive those for the overall feel that it _is_ a Wheel of Time story.
The whole Egwene thread is excellent. So is Verin's writing. I don't always like how much time is spent on certain characters, but they are usually written well. And we have to remember that RJ himself occasionally did the same thing--spent what felt like an excessive amount of time on side plots.
Anyway, this episode had a few points that upset me, but overall Season 2 has been excellent and I'm willing to hold my ire and give them the benefit of the doubt for now on the things I didn't like.
@@ryadinstormblessed8308 So you would not call it incompetent the way they ham handedly orchestrated the needlessly elaborate and now defunct plot line between Ishy Mat and Min having Mat and Min meet in the most ridiculously contrived way that was attempting to masque as an ingenious plot, so she could bring him to Falme, only for him to end up literally getting yeeted to Falme INSTANTLY and with zero effort or explanation which rendered the entire previous plot line completely pointless and nonsensical.
And this is considering it was 100% non book material invented by the writers which took up so much time and turned out to be completely pointless and was done instead of adapting actual book material
I think only Siuane and LeAnn are aware of the Dragon in town, which is why they are the only 2 we see with him(outside of Verin) - and this keeping it all a secret will be the grounds for events in the next season.
I love that Verin lied about Siuan sending her to hold the shield.
I mean technically she didn't lie. She just said that's an order. She never said.from who 😏
Lanfear broke Siuan's spirit, showing that there was nothing there before the followers of the Dark One.
She left her alive to give Liandrin another reason to displace her - the Dragon left.
In the book, Siuan was removed because from the Reds' point of view she did nothing to lead the Dragon
Matt. I hope that the tea is not a replacement for Tyr's terangreal.
I think it was suppose to be a replacement for the flicker scene. Also, agree with everything you said about Siuan.
Lan said to Maeraine, not even a single forsaken can still an ae sadai
ep6 may have had the most stunning sequences of the show so far, but this episode is the best episode overall imv. Fantastic from beginning to end. I just wish Lan had taken a different path to this point. I love that they're showing us his other sides-not just a stone cold killing machine but also a loving friend and a meganerd. I am so psyched for ep8!!!
Great video!
I missed that Maigan was in the line of damane being trained.
Re Anvaere -- not only does she face that her son is a Darkfriend, but also it will be a blow to her to realise that everything she thought she had achieved by hard work and diplomacy was actually mostly her son making a bargain. :(
It also hadn't occured to me that Anvaere now knows that Liandrin is a Darkfriend....I wonder how this will play out? Maybe Verin will visit her and tell her a story that will believe she needs to keep the secret?
Thanks for doing this on your vacation.
No woman could remove that shield...they can't see the weaves. So it HAD to be a man Lezbi Nerdy. Ishy wasn't going to do it so it had to be Rand at this stage.
I can't see Siuan having been stilled like that. Not knowing Elaida is comming.
You brought an ear-to-ear smile to my face when you said "ta'veren" in your Ogier voice.😁 Yeah, having Siuan untie Moiraine's shield would've fit metaphorically well with Siuan's net untangling from S1E6.🧵 It's one theory that got away ... 🐟
Mat did know Ishy from his dreams. Renna does die in the books to a crossbow bolt, fleeing Valen Luca's traveling Menagerie. I was right about about Rand freeing Moiraine.
I get that women and men can undo each other's weaves in the book... but I think it makes more sense for them not to be able to do that since they aren't supposed to be able to even see those weaves. I'm really curious whether the show will revert back to how the book does it or be different on this topic.
I think they could undo it in the show but they just couldn’t see it was there which is cannon
I sincerely hope they find another way of getting people where they need to be WITHOUT using head trauma. Everyone's probably got multiple concussions from how often they get knocked tf out
Seriously. Let’s hope the Yellow Ajah can treat or prevent CTE.
14:50 I think they wanted to introduce Ji'i'Toh really well. I took this as her removing Toh for being captured. She wasn't touched while holding a weapon so she didn't become Gai'Shian. But she got captured, maybe defied orders or something.
She keeps getting up because she feels her Toh is great and as we know she is very prideful.
An episode of sacrifice. Moraine and her sister made big sacrifices. And even Lanfear, made a small sacrifice of her wishes for Rand at the end. Excellent episode.
Siuan basically using compulsion on moiraine.
At the end of the episde, Siuan accuses Moiraine of lying about being Stilled.
We now know that she was never stilled, but Siuan don't. In her eyes Moiraine just lied, breaking the Oath to tell no word that is untrue, and she followed a Forsaken into the Ways together with Rand.
I think they are setting up a plot for where Siuan thinks Moiraine is a Darkfriend and Black Ajah due to being able to lie, refusing Tower law and following a Forsaken.
I guess she did use Moiraine's Oath to obey Siuan from S1 Ep6 to make her close the Waygate so at least that oath would still be in place (unless she thinks Moiraine just acted to save time until Lanfear appeared).
EDIT: With Moiraine's nephew being outed as a Darkfriend it will add up nicelywith Siuan thinking Moiraine is a bit shady as well.
She's got the binkie gave me the laugh i needed during this midnight shift.
Hi Lezbi! My thoughts are that Siuan needs to get Stilled by order of the Hall, or else Salidar and the rest makes no sense whatsoever. I think Lanfear will try to manipulate Siuan not realizing just what a political mess Siuan is currently facing in the Hall of the Tower already with discontent and Red support growing. Once Lanfear sees just how useless Siuan actually is she'll throw her to the wolves to let the Lord of Chaos reign in the Tower, and just move on with her designs on Rand. Siuan will be brought down in the Tower by the Red Ajah through internal politics, same as in the Books. We need to see the fact on screen that the White Tower for one reason or another remains its own worst enemy, same as it was since the Age of Legends.
RE: Suian
I think she's "broken" because now the Tower is going to drag her down because she lost the dragon reborn and a bunch of Cairhein burnt while she was there.
I agree with you there. Her motivation for being there with 14 (not sure why this number...) sisters was to proclaim the dragon and show the world they had him in their pocket. Instead of that the city burned, she got wooped by LF, she lost the dragon 🐉 and the love of her life. I saw it as a look of hopeless realization of her situation.
I agree with "a look of hopeless realization of her situation". She even said so to Moiraine.@@TheCasualTrippy
I like the idea I’ve seen around today that Suian is under compulsion, probably by Lanfear. She was acting so out of character and her switch to deciding it was right for the Tower to control the Dragon was so out there. And she blamed Moiraine for screwing up at the Eye of the World when that debacle was just as much her fault as Moiraine’s.
She isn’t under compulsion but she is acting out of character. Lanfear putting Siuane under compulsion to keep Rand in the makes no sense and goes counter to her goals. Lanfear couldn’t predict that Rand would come to her for help. He might have found another way out for all she knew.
9:09 Alanna not wanting either her or her Warders separated in the event of a forsaken Attack is sweet.
I was also offended on Lan’s behalf when Logain dissed him as not being worthy of playing a “gentleman’s game.” Bro, you’re talking to the frickin King of Malkier here, he out-gentlemans you, minor Ghealdanin nobility!
Anvaere turning in her own son showed a bit of where she’s similar to Moiraine - ironclad commitment to the Light and what’s right and wrong, above familial connections, even at great emotional cost to themselves.
I would have liked Egwene to see what already broken damane were like, to fuel her rage. But I liked this episode a lot. One thing - just how Anvaere recognized that Moiraine was panicking and unsure what to do, I think we can apply the same to Siuan and her actions here. The Dragon Reborn is real, no longer just a concept, the Forsaken are walking around and the only ally she thought she was sure of has been keeping secrets. Her mental state is obvious just by her saying Moiraine lied to her about beingstilled, which she's aware is impossible unless darkfriend, and besides Lan was the one that said it anyway, not Moiraine.
Didn't notice this until now: New Matt has pointy elf ears!
Well, that's going to be a fun little road trip through the ways!!
No way Lanfear stilled Siuan, she has too much contempt for modern Aes Sedai to think she would need to bother. She just cut her weaves and flung her away. She clearly never thought about a need to shield Moiraine either. I mean, there we're (after Moiraine was unshielded) 16 full sisters in the city and Lanfear just strolled through, causing mayhem on the way.
I’m bothered by Siuan’s sudden turn against Moraine.😢 I feel like she would have more compassion for her difficult situation and understand why it was hard to tell her or anyone about it.
Yes. 100%
Edit: and I *hate* that she used the Oath to control Moiraine.
Yeah I hate them fighting 🥺
Me too. I don’t know if there was any forgiveness for that. I know I wouldn’t be able to forgive someone for doing something like that to me.
What she did is dirty. It is using and asserting your power over someone else in a borderline abusive way. It sounds like something a Elaida a Liandrin would do.
@kelseycarter161 Agreed. It is little short of Compulsion.
Theory: the last scene between Siuan and Morane is the Mechanism/reasoning that they will no longer be in a relationship between the two of them and they end up marrying Gareth Byrne Thom Merrlin as in the books?
That truly was a powerfull moment, they both turned straight because of that! 😄
@@finman123 Yeah, it has always bothered me with RJ writing that girls start off as “pillow friends” but seam to grow out of it, unless you are a red sister then gay for life and probably a power hungry evil woman. Very messed up immature view of sexuality, always wondered if he was trying to push the lines but it was the afraid to go all the way because it was the ‘90’s.
Please explain how you expected Siuan to remove a shield made from Sadin? Pretty sure that would be impossible.
I explained at the end. Long story short, does everyone not remember this is done in the books?? If you are skilled you can unweave something from the “other power”, it happens in the books.
@@LezbiNerdy Yeah... but Suian? Not nearly skilled powerful enough IMO, but maybe that's just me. Elayne, Nynaeve or Egwene maybe, but not Suian. IMO at least. :)
Part of me wants to think that's "Laman's Sin" throne, the one carved from Avendoraldera. Or at least in my mind. Probably not though as that would be in the Throne Room.
Terminator Lanfear may just be my favorite version of her 😍
Pretty sure Lanfear didn't still Siuanne, just overpowered her. The show has given a clearer reason for the schism in the Tower than the books do. Lanfear knows she has fundamentally undermined Siuann's authority by taking Rand, and understands what it's going to result in.
There wasn’t really that big of a schism in the Tower. The black ajah just helped Elaida without her knowledge.
Yh Suian is in the end of the books, to kill her off will mean certain things in the books won't happen.
@@conlinrevan1384 they would just give those events to other characters. They already gave Siuan’s scene teaching Nynaeve to Liandrin.
Is it possible (I am guessing not based on the depth of emotion) that Suane and Moiraine planned this together from the start to 'trick' Lanfear into allowing Moiraine to follow? It could be the 'Game of Houses' type deception the episode was named for?
And the deception runs so deep, the other Aes Sedai want to depose Suane, resulting in the Aes Sedai war?
I hope so.
Lanfear's comment at the end, mirrors Ishamael's comment to her in the Dream (Ep5?).
A broken Amyrlins is more useful than a dead one.
I had to immediately rewind and listen carefully word for word what Verin said because I thought she bold face lied too lol!!
Anvaere heard... so she knows Liandrin is a darkfriend, but not sure what will come of it.
I’m now terrified for Anvaere. Liandrin’s going to know something was up when she finds out Barthanes was caught, and Anvaere was the only one in a position to get Barthanes in that much trouble.
@@catc8927 Will Liandrin know it was her? Maybe if she looks into it, but maybe she just will think Barthanes failed and got caught. Depends how much she pays attention. I have a feeling we won't find out until next season.... I hope the wait isn't too long.
she cut him off from the source while he was holding the source. That should be impossible for 1 weak aes sedai to do to the dragon
It’s his first time being shielded so he doesn’t know that he should be defending against anything like that. She is powerful and skilled enough to shield and an experienced Rand
In that cold open, Moiraine and Siuan are supposed to be full Aes Sedai, right? I'm guessing they should be around 50ish?
I wish they'd had Matt unconsciously speaking in the Old Tongue from time to time since season 1. That would have been so easy to do and so useful in the future.
Lan knowing more than Moiraine about the power irritated me. But it's ok, I guess. They needed to resolve this conflict they made. I feel it was not that useful in the show though.
They needed more _time_ to flesh this all out...
Lan knowing more about the power than Moiraine and Logain. That is my least favorite scene so far this season. I was not buying what they were selling.
THIS COMMENT MAY CONTAIN SOME BOOK SPOILERS. I tried not to mention many details, but it may still spoil some things that are coming.
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I can't remember any mention in the books about what the Tower laws said the Amyrlin Seat is supposed to do when the Dragon is reborn, but I do remember that what Siuan said in the show is what a certain Red sister planned to do. I think they made it as a part of Tower laws for that plot. We know that the Reds act as Tower Law enforcers. I also think that the event in early s3 will be the result of Siuan not immediately following the Tower laws, which resulted in the Dragon Reborn escaping to Falme with a Forsaken.
About Lanfear stilling Siuan, that's a good theory. But I don't think Lanfear did it. She said a broken Amyrlin is more useful to her than a dead one. If she stilled Siaun, then technically she's no longer Amyrlin, and she'll be as useless to Lanfear as if she's dead. Also, we know what will happen in early s3. That will only happen if Siuan still holds the Seat. Which brings us again to the fact that the Forsaken have their own individual motives and schemes. So I don't think it will be Lanfear who will initiate the event, but another Forsaken, most probably Ishy.
Siuane is definitely not stilled, not sure how you got that. I think she's hurt and has lost face in with the Tower. Moiraine and Siuane were sent by the Amyrlin to tell Gitara the war was over, they mentioned it to her before the Foretelling.
Do we think Mat was actually seeing past/future lives or did Ishy just give him a bad trip to manipulate him?
One thing. Every thing Ishy as said and done in the show, is to manipulate someone.
I literally hate Siuan right now. She took something that Moiraine meant to be intimate and beautiful, and made it perverted. No one should ever be forced to do something against their will. That is a form of slavery, and I thought that Siuan was above that. And then they wonder why Moiraine doesn’t trust anyone. Plus there is the moment when she took Moirain’s trama and threw it in her face.
I've been wondering why they still her. Being overpowered and outdone by Lanfear is hardly a deposing offense. She's bloody Lanfear. Most Aes Sedai probably have nightmares about her. She could easily come out looking like she was always on the "right side" of things.
But her behavior towards Moiraine could come out, and does amount to compulsion. Maybe Moiraine will be Siuan's downfall, too.
I think she might be deposed at least partially due to incompetence, for letting Rand go after she made a big deal about having enough Aes Sedai to keep him controlled. Even though it wasn’t made public yet, at least some of the Aes Sedai who where there know of that reason.
Some other more personal stuff might come up too.
Lezbi Nerdy, Smug Queen of Smugvania - I love it!
My question is, if Anvaere overheard enough to know Barthanes is DF why is Liandrin not exposed immediately as well.
Smuggy McSmugerson there, good job on your predictions from Smug Mountain! 😁 Do you think Siuan was being compelled? Her attitude and violation of Moiraine's free will seemed a little over the top to me. Maybe I just don't want her to throw away any chance of her future with Moiraine! Ahhh, this show! Next week is gonna be amazing ( I hope!)
Makes me think we won't get the snakes and foxes if this tea exists.
I think Siuan was under compulsion. Lanfear says "A broken amyrlin suits me better" and smiles, it is not imposible that Lanfear planned all of those events, and planned to kill Moiraine at the end. Rand intervenes and saves Moiraine Lanfear values being in Rands good grace higher than killing a stilled Aes Sedai. Lanfear has no clue Moiraine is not shielded anymore since she never used the power infront of her.
I can't remember, but in the books didn't the female Aes Sedai need to learn about unweaving men's weaves from Nyneave who learned it from Moghedien? That's probably my mixing things up, but I thought that they had to learn it. From who and when I can't remember.
The women can't see men's weaves which is why no one knew Moiraine was shielded when she was in the Tower surrounded by Aes Sedai. Suian wouldn't have known how to do it. The show had to first establish that they could sense the weave on Moiraine.
Lanfear is so mad, bad and se xy that i am now rooting for the forsaken.
I really liked this episode (I need it some wins after last episode). I was so happy to see Lan figure things out and be reunited with Moiraine 😊 (also Alanna and Verin coming to help them).
I was surprised that Matt was dragged to Falme, I was hoping for him to help free Rand this episode. Do this means there will not be "flicker flicker"? I'm fine with that but some fans will riot 🤭.
I was wondering about that too. It seems like this 'tea' that Ishy gives him is a nod to flicker flicker. Doesn't look like we get the portal stones which is fine to me
I’m at the Logain part of the smugness. I totally thought of how sad you must have been to have Rand do it himself, and the rift between Moiraine and Suiann, when I watched.
Re your lighting during at least the part where Perrin and Avi are walking with Bain and Chiad talking about why she had Toh. This scene was very clear to me (I watch on a 4k HD tv) so I would say it is an issue with your tv/laptop ability to see certain light/dark.
I wonder what's going to happen with Verin. The sitters might blame Siuan for losing the dragon, but Siuan will be blaming Verin for working with Moiraine to free him.
And in the books, the justification to depose Siuan was stronger, but not in the show.
It actually was not strong in the books at all. Because, in those Siuan was doing what Moiraine was saying to her in the throne room.
There was no justification for stilling book Siuan, especially after Rand is literally holding Callandor, which is concrete proof to the world that he is the Dragon Reborn.
The only reason, is Elaida, a Red sister was not aware of the foretelling, and basically used rumour to take her down, and the Shadow took advantage to break the Tower completely.
As for the books, later ones make it very clear that Siuan was deposed as Amyrlin with the smallest number of Sitters, one of them Black, and it was an illegal vote because the Black Sitter's vote was invalid.
Also loved the Nynaeve "Your name sings in his ears, now get up!" moment. 😆
I've been thinking since s1 that this whole "the darkness of Mat" thing has been a giant red herring, and every episode in s2 has only made me think it more. Moiraine was *wrong* about a bunch of things in s1, and she handed Mat over to imprisonment by Darkfriends with how wrong she was about him! And the other people pushing the "Mat's totally gonna turn" agenda were Padan Fain and Ishamael, two of the absolute least trustworthy people in the world.
Mat's made no choices at all this season. From imprisonment to manipulation to imprisonment, he's been passed from hand to hand with Ishy pulling the strings, working to break him down and make him despair. From a Doylist perspective: Ishy's plan working would be the most boring story choice available. From a Watsonian perspective: we keep being TOLD Mat has *omg such darkness!!!* in him, but we have never once been SHOWN it. He hasn't hurt anyone or made any evil choices. What we've been shown, over and over, is that he loves his friends and he doubts himself.
Ishy's going to be dramatically proven wrong about Mat. So are all the viewers who believed the Father of Lies about how dark and doomed Mat is. He's going to finally, for maybe the first time since early s1, make an actual choice - and it's going to be a heroic one. Possibly involving a certain Horn.
(And he's not going to be on board for breaking the Wheel and destroying the world. His sisters live in that world!)
Well said.
Though given the origins of the name a'dam and the whole collar/leash connection... I have to wonder if the show threw in that mouth cover to be a ball gag.
Smug city smug mountain 😂
Book spoiler**
If siuan is shielded, with it tied off, aes sedai would see it and rediscover tying off weaves..... UNLESS this is going to be the first example of inverted weaves that cant be seen. (I think that's what it was called. Many years since i read the books)
I vote Siuan is knocked out with a head bleed. Her rule is broken, though. She had the Dragon Reborn and let him go. Also half of Cairhien burned under his watch.
Lanfear and Ishmael have me rooting for the dark 😅 I love their portrayals to the point they are overshadowing the EF 5 and the main cast for the light
After Renna leaves in a huff, Egwene is seen braiding her hair in a Two Rivers style. A bit of defiance and to remember who she really is?
I think its an emotional breaking
Hated seeing Egwene in the Damane gag. It hurt my soul.
I don't think Siuan is stilled as some are suggesting. The show has done a good job making the Forsaken as scary as possible, but Lan was right all along about how despite their great power, they do have limits. Ishamael didn't still Moiraine, so it is very unlikely that Lanfear stilled Siuan.
Siuan, however, has a lot of enemies in the tower, which they set up in this episode, and her influence amongst the Aes Sedai is going to be greatly reduced after she lost the Dragon Reborn, especially given how Moiraine's actions are going to look from the outside.
A lot of people are acting as if Siuan is somehow now a villain, but from her perspective at the Waygate, from beginning to end, she could easily think that Moiraine could possibly even be a Darkfriend. I don't think she will, because she loves her and knows her well, but it's some juicy drama that fleshes out both characters in really interesting ways.
I also don't think Siuan is stilled... Yet. I suspect the fact she let Rand escape will be reason enough for the Hall to depose her, though I don't think this will happen until the beginning of Season 3.
I have a couple of questions.
1) After the beating Renna gave Egwene last episode, does it make sense she’s letting her rebel by braiding her hair and saying she’ll kill her?
2) Once someone is actually cut off from the source, can they still see the weaves. Or is it Logain’s Talent?
Only mid Wiffery if the baby shoot past them😜
When Siuan Sanche tells Rand that she is suppose to cage the Dragon Reborn and use him as their weapon, how is that different from what the Seanchan do to the Damane? Taking away someone's agency is never a good thing.
Commenting for algo. One of the things I noticed about people who thought Moirraine was stilled is they typically didn't like the show very much.
If you're jamming to the song Rafe is singing you can anticipate what he's doing pretty good. Otherwise....
I'm a book reader, but I don't remember if this was ever discussed. I never thought about it before watching this episode either. Is the oath road somehow connected with Compulsion? Like, was the rod made from the knowledge of the weaves? Or maybe the rod was an inspiration for discovering the weaves? Consider the idea of the Aes Sesai being so comparatively clueless about the power compared to channelers before the breaking, that they're unknowingly using forbidden weaves on everyone who makes it to full sisterhood.
Well the Oath Rod (AoL: binding rod) was made during the time when true Compulsion was common, at least as a crime. Considering wilders and young channelers develop a crude form of mental manipulation, it's likely Compulsion, a weave that many are inclined to gravitate to, is the inspiration for the Oath Rod during the time of its invention as a punishment tool. Aes Sedai nowadays are clueless and to quote a Forsaken 'punish themselves like criminals'. And true Compulsion is what's forbidden, most Aes Sedai retain some form of mental manipulation from childhood. Even the Blues have a secret 'Fear' weave that can be used on humans.
It's not explicitly discussed, but I feel like the Rod is different than Compulsion. A strong will can fight against Compulsion, where as the Oaths sworn are iron clad, to the point that having conflicting Oaths can actually kill someone (for example, swearing an Oath to obey, then being ordered to lie, can end up with them literally choking to death on the words).
Thanks for the replies :)
She knocked Siuan out
First off, I really appreciate that you do actual episode reactions instead of just reviews. I haven't been able to find a lot of reactions to the show other than EDN who I love.
I don't know where this idea of Siuan being shielded/stilled is even coming from, though I've seen it from several people. Lanfear hits her with air. It doesn't look anything like shielding which we've seen a lot in the show. Seems far more likely she's broken psychologically and/or politically. Her downfall is coming soon. After her heel turn in this episode I don't think the Tower coup is going to feel nearly as tragic as it does in the books. I have a feeling non-readers are likely cheering for her downfall after this episode. Not sure how I feel about this change. I think I don't hate it. It made sense after the way they played up her and Moiraine's relationship as compared to the books. They needed to give that relationship a definitive end instead of the way it just fizzles away and isn't mentioned anymore in the books. I don't love that they've made Siuan behave like Elaida, but I think it will work for the show.
I don’t love the Siuan not backing Moraine choice so far, if the tower was more fleshed out it could have been played better with plotting. The constant sniping between the women in the books grated on me almost as much as the whole men can never understand women joke that just feels like an embarrassing uncle talking. Overall though this season is a massive improvement
I think the whole Mat part is more manipulation by Isshy dear that will backfire on him because, Ta'Veren
SPOILERS
A theory on Siuane.
I wonder if that confrontation did end up with her stilled. That would setup Elaida replacing her without some of the rest of that story arch. I don't think too many book fans would like it, myself included, but it might let them cut out a lot of stuff they don't think they need. Also, I don't think we've seen or heard that Siuane has a warder...