That is as simple as it gets, i wished I knew that trick before I bought a degree wheel and dial indicator, I guess it is bought experience now 😂 you explained it really well and made it easy enough for anyone to understand, well I say "anyone " there's a select few that will never get it even if you draw a picture with a crayon 😂🤣
I choose to be ignorant In not degreeing my cam in my 360 ramcharger and now I’m chasing over heating issues with my fresh rebuild thank you This was very helpful gonna defiantly use this to check and make sure everything is kosher!
..I just did this, thought I would bring up 2 problems, first, you need to measure your lifters to make sure they are the same length,I found some as much as .008 difference!..so I had to match a pair up, second,the lifter will not stick out far enough in an " LA " type motor I solved this by temporarily gluing a bolt on each to get them to stick out of the lifter bore..thanks for an excellent video!
You could also just use a second lifter and put on top of both of the cylinder 1 lifters. The depth of the lifter into the bore should keep them straight enough to accurately get a reading.
Perfect. Also, don't install your distributor thinking this is #1 cylinder on the compression stroke....it isn't...it's the #6 cylinder compression stroke. That might confuse alot of kids...lol.
@@318willrun , After the marks were aligned with chain on, I rotated the assembly one revolution until cam and crank were both at 12:00 just to drop the distributor in for #1. This is easy to verify before the intake is on....both lifters on the #1 cylinder will be on the base circle of the cam....easy. Actually, it doesn't matter at all what position on the cap to designate a cylinder to....it can be anywhere a particular cylinder is on the compression stroke. I'm sure old timers all know this. I am still befuddled about why Mopar uses both 12:00 positions on the gears for the #1 cylinder compression stroke. Is a Chevy this way also? I don't work on bowties.
This method is only good to make the check on STD & stage 1 mild cams only. On race cams like stage 3 to 5 street strip with over 510 valve lift & over 290 @006 on the ramp the method wont work you will need to use a degree wheel.
What name brand harmonic balancer are you using their I'd be interested in buying one like that for my 360 if so do you know the name and part number??
The method i always use to find top dead center compression strokes with the engine together is i use a compression tester hose and attach a vacuum gauge to it. Screw it down into the hole on number 1 cylinder. Then by hand i slowly rotate the engine with a ratchet or wrench. When you are on compression stroke you will see pressure on your vacuum gauge start climbing. Then it gets to a point where it stops. I find the sweet spot between barely turning the crank bolt clockwise then counter clockwise. You will find that spot your vacuum gauge shows pressure then stop. Then when you barely try to turn the engine in reverse it will show vacuum. This will be exactly TDC compression stroke dead nuts. If my explaination made sense to yall. But thats the quick, easy, accurate method i always use.
I guess you could say that verifys straight up. Better than skipping it altogether. If you don't have an adjustable timing set all it is is for your own knowledge that it is correct. You could get a cam that's wrong box or something. Check lift and what you did is better than just trusting it. I might make my own degree wheel so I can check it a little better thank you the tip. I will use it, to also check damper and gear set
Some have printed the degree wheel off of the internet and then glued it to a cardboard. I actually have a degree wheel also, and the crank socket/etc.
This is good to know . Also online I've seen a black and white print of two differnt positions for the small block distributor gear / oil pump shift to be positioned in . 1st diagram- the strait edge groove shows to be facing the driverside front corner of the block between the block and head . 2nd diagram - the same groove face strait forward facing the water neck ? these are the ( positions ) for the rotor to be facing at TDC ? I guess if the pistions is at TDC on compression stroke and rotor facing number one plug I guess it doesnt matter ?? what's your opinion
With the timing chain sprocket Dots correctly lined up, the factory installed the distributor Intermediate shaft index slot to be exactly Parallel with the Camshaft axis.....This usually allows the distributor advance Diaphragm to be factory located without hitting anything....
Hey 318WR, It looks like a roller block you’re doing the flat edge trick to. I have a 84 360 out of a ramcharger (non roller) I have a .525 lift cam and Factory style hydraulic flat tappets. My question to you is on tdc they don’t protrude past lifter bore like yours, instead they’re recessed so do I have the wrong lifters? Does the truck engine have shorter lifters than the car? Am I okay here or is something not right? Thanks
No, you have the non-roller lifters. You can go off the rockers or push rods, or you can put a short tube or washers (equal in height) using your own imagination to make up the difference
after following your segment on #302 head porting , I installed the 360 valves . Can you tell me the original installed height of the #302 valves ? Would like to shim the rocker shafts to correct height , to obtain optimum valve train geometry . Perhaps you have a formula ?
Just put new cam in my la 318. When the motor is tdc on number 6 the dots are at 12 and 6. When number 1 is tdc the cam gear dot is at 12 and crank 6. Was same with the stock cam. I installed the distributor with 6tdc and rotor facing the firewall. Same as when i took it apart. Is this correct? Too much yes and no on the web. Thanks
The wheel method is a little hard for me to grasp but as a man who has only had used motors and slipped balancer's my life this makes sense to me as the screw driver method is how i get my new zero on a old used worn engine that the balancer or chain has slipped! my 72 Challenger is 10 off from TDC 0 as its New 0 so when im timing i use 10 as my zero and she runs like a champ where if i went of of 0 it ran "Retarded" no pun intended lol......Great Vid
Question : when you have the crank dot at 12 o'clock and the cam dot at 6 o'clock is the #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke or TDC on the exhaust stroke ? Or is #6 cylinder at TDC of its compression stroke ?
Thanks for watching ! So I'll use your terms... the exhaust stroke. It's where the overlap happens, meaning the exhaust valve is almost shut and the intake valve has already begin to open.
I'm dropping a 20-212-2 (268H-10) comp cam into my 360 . The @.050 is 218. My question is, Do i line it up the same on zero or do I need to do any special advancing or retarding? May seem silly to some but just wanting to make sure it's in right the first time. Love the channel bud. Keep it up.
Best way is to degree it using a degreeing wheel according to the cam card supplied by Comp. You can use this method in the video to see if dot to dot on the timing set is kosher on the overlap. 3rd and final method would be to just align the dots and hope it's spot on or very close.
If this is the method you want to use just line up the dots on the timing set and go from there. The rest is too inaccurate to make any difference. The author says he got good results and I am sure he did but that is almost completely attributable to just lining up the dots.
Great video ! Did you have to send a core into Oregon Cam Grinding ? Yoshimoshi did a video on the same subject but with a factory magnum cam and it was 10* retarded !
With as much respect as I can muster up, and with no offense to the Author, this information is incomplete! In order to properly degree in a camshaft, we must first establish true # 1 cylinder TDC. The most accurate means of locating true TDC will be by using a PPS tool (positive piston stop) With cylinder heads not yet installed, a cylinder block deck mounted PPS tool can be used. With cylinder heads in place, a spark plug port PPS tool can be used. A dial indicator will also work (cylinder heads not yet in place), but only if the # 1 piston's location is checked at 2 different locations in it's travel towards top of stroke. In other words, we want to stop the piston at lets say 30 degrees before top of travel in one direction of rotation, and then stop it again (in the opposite direction of rotation) at 30 degrees before top of travel. Now we have elimated any error caused by a minor crankshaft movement. (you can use 25 degrees or 35 degrees..... as long as the same angle is achieved in both directions, it will not matter. I find that 10+/- degrees is not quite enough to acheive the accuracy I am after) Conversely, when we use a dial indicator to find top of travel only, it still allows for a degree or two of crankshaft movement while the piston appears to be resting at top of travel. When the PPS tool has been removed, and when the total of the 60 degree angle is split, we rotate the crankshaft until our new marks align. Now we are at true # 1 cylinder TDC. NOTE: If the OEM markings need to be corrected, now is the time to do that! This new TDC starting piont allows us to accurately degree in the camshaft, and equally important, end up with the correct ignition TA (total advance). One more note..... the reason for phasing or indexing a camshaft, is to compensate for, or correct, any errors that may be incoporated within the cranshaft sprocket or within the camshaft sprocket. The camshaft itself (during manufacturing) should be properly phased/indexed to it's sprocket's alignment pin bore. Bottom line...... in order to locate TRUE # 1 TDC, we must use a means of accurately stopping the # 1 piston at XX degrees (before top of travel), and then stop it again at that very same XX degrees (before top of travel) in the opposite direction of rotation. Then we split this angle by dividing it in half. Remove the stop..... and there we are! Again, no offense to the author. I'm simply adding what I believe to be some much needed clarification.
@@318willrun My point is...... why even bother going through this procedure if the intent does not include being accurate? The entire idea behind degreeing a camshaft, is to obtain accuracy! Using a dial indicator on top of the piston (as you describe with a 4 degree variance), is very inaccurate! A dial indicator can be used, but should be used with a degree wheel, and while obtaining the "split" that I mentioned earlier. By stopping the piston at the same angle in either crankshaft direction, and by then obtaining the split angle, we establish True TDC, of which becomes our base for the rest of the procedure! The screwdriver via the spark plug port is not a good idea, nor is guessing where true TDC is. I would suggest reading my previous posting re; the use of a PPS tool and a degree wheel. It is not all that difficult to do. One last comment...... and again, no offense to you...... people turn to these UA-cam videos for advice, or the "how to", and so on. I believe that we have an un-written responsibility to show these people an accurate means of performing certain tasks. In other words, I am more concerned that these viewers gain a more complete understanding as to how this is professionally achieved.
@@markemery49 As stated in my home page, "Unprofessional advice, use at your own risk" 😉 However, if they have the same results as I have, they'll be very happy I am sure!!!!
@@318willrun Quoting you; "However, if they have the same results as I have, they'll be very happy I am sure!!!!" Again, that is my point....... they will end up with the same results as per what you ended up with! It is so simple to follow the camshaft manufacturer's instructions..... and that begins with first locating TRUE # 1 TDC, and by using a degree wheel and a PPS tool.
@@markemery49 I agree...... I've never gone beyond oil changes, plugs and wires, grease fittings, etc..... NOT EVEN removing valve covers.... Until the other day..... Ended up having to replace cam, lifters, intake and valve cover gaskets, etc, etc..... Made me a piston stop in about 5 minutes from a spark plug, a tap to thread the hole left by removing the ceramic, and a bolt... . Because if I'm gonna learn about it and do it, it's gonna be done as best as can be done.... the right way!!
I degree every cam cause I want to milk every bit of power I can. I use dial indicators to find roll overs and verify. I use Mopar performance and have never had a problem at all. Center lining a cam is different. With a bog block mopar using mopar performance you have to center line the blasted thing.
@@reallivehumandrummer4438 I'd have to look at the cam card, don't remember off the top of my head. Didn't I show the cam card in this video? or was it another????
Thanks for this video. I finally understand what a guy is trying to accomplish by degreeing in a cam.
Glad it was helpful!
Good information!! Especially if someone is doing this for the first time!!!!!
Thank you
That is as simple as it gets, i wished I knew that trick before I bought a degree wheel and dial indicator, I guess it is bought experience now 😂 you explained it really well and made it easy enough for anyone to understand, well I say "anyone " there's a select few that will never get it even if you draw a picture with a crayon 😂🤣
LOL.... crayola even... ?? The degree wheel/indicator is a nice tool, and will allow you to talk more intelligent numbers !! Thanks for watching !
This method had fallen into obscurity until recently. Glad it's being kept out there.
It’s easy, fast, takes no special tools! Thank you for watching
Thankyou for a good video, glad you survived the heat.
Thank you for watching! the heat was no joke
Great information there! Thanks for sharing this knowledge! Great video!
As always, thank you for watching
You taught me something buddy….cool 👍👍👍👍
Thank you!
Cool deal if your are long time reader of Mopar action you would've known this trick along with a few others great stuff 318willrun!!
Thank you for watching
I choose to be ignorant In not degreeing my cam in my 360 ramcharger and now I’m chasing over heating issues with my fresh rebuild thank you This was very helpful gonna defiantly use this to check and make sure everything is kosher!
Hope it helps you with your project. Thank you for watching!
..I just did this, thought I would bring up 2 problems, first, you need to measure your lifters to make sure they are the same length,I found some as much as .008 difference!..so I had to match a pair up, second,the lifter will not stick out far enough in an " LA " type motor I solved this by temporarily gluing a bolt on each to get them to stick out of the lifter bore..thanks for an excellent video!
You could also just use a second lifter and put on top of both of the cylinder 1 lifters. The depth of the lifter into the bore should keep them straight enough to accurately get a reading.
Perfect. Also, don't install your distributor thinking this is #1 cylinder on the compression stroke....it isn't...it's the #6 cylinder compression stroke.
That might confuse alot of kids...lol.
Thank you! Yes, you are correct
@@318willrun , After the marks were aligned with chain on, I rotated the assembly one revolution until cam and crank were both at 12:00 just to drop the distributor in for #1.
This is easy to verify before the intake is on....both lifters on the #1 cylinder will be on the base circle of the cam....easy.
Actually, it doesn't matter at all what position on the cap to designate a cylinder to....it can be anywhere a particular cylinder is on the compression stroke.
I'm sure old timers all know this.
I am still befuddled about why Mopar uses both 12:00 positions on the gears for the #1 cylinder compression stroke.
Is a Chevy this way also?
I don't work on bowties.
@@p.emerson0864 I can't remember how GM's are set up.... LOL
This method is only good to make the check on STD & stage 1 mild cams only. On race cams like stage 3 to 5 street strip with over 510 valve lift & over 290 @006 on the ramp the method wont work you will need to use a degree wheel.
Good information...too many people over complicate the installation of the camshaft and related parts 👍🇺🇸
Thank you for watching
Mike, if a person is not concerned with accuracy during his build, I could agree with you.
Great video! Wish I would have known this when I put mine together! Lol
Hey buddy !! Hope all is well with you and your family !!!!
What name brand harmonic balancer are you using their I'd be interested in buying one like that for my 360 if so do you know the name and part number??
The method i always use to find top dead center compression strokes with the engine together is i use a compression tester hose and attach a vacuum gauge to it. Screw it down into the hole on number 1 cylinder. Then by hand i slowly rotate the engine with a ratchet or wrench. When you are on compression stroke you will see pressure on your vacuum gauge start climbing. Then it gets to a point where it stops. I find the sweet spot between barely turning the crank bolt clockwise then counter clockwise. You will find that spot your vacuum gauge shows pressure then stop. Then when you barely try to turn the engine in reverse it will show vacuum. This will be exactly TDC compression stroke dead nuts. If my explaination made sense to yall. But thats the quick, easy, accurate method i always use.
Thanks for sharing that tip!
Good job
Thanks!
Thankyou sir
good job!
Thanks!
Careful if you do buy a wheel, got a jegs wheel and it doesnt clear the crankshaft snout
I guess you could say that verifys straight up. Better than skipping it altogether. If you don't have an adjustable timing set all it is is for your own knowledge that it is correct. You could get a cam that's wrong box or something. Check lift and what you did is better than just trusting it. I might make my own degree wheel so I can check it a little better thank you the tip. I will use it, to also check damper and gear set
Some have printed the degree wheel off of the internet and then glued it to a cardboard. I actually have a degree wheel also, and the crank socket/etc.
So this grind doesnt have any advance ground into it. Pretty common for 4 degrees advance and a small gap.
👍💪
You got it, buddy!
This is good to know . Also online I've seen a black and white print of two differnt positions for the small block distributor gear / oil pump shift to be positioned in . 1st diagram- the strait edge groove shows to be facing the driverside front corner of the block between the block and head . 2nd diagram - the same groove face strait forward facing the water neck ? these are the ( positions ) for the rotor to be facing at TDC ? I guess if the pistions is at TDC on compression stroke and rotor facing number one plug I guess it doesnt matter ?? what's your opinion
Thank you for watching! I guess it’s easy to point the rotor to number 1 on the compression stroke, but you can time it in any position
With the timing chain sprocket Dots correctly lined up, the factory installed the distributor Intermediate shaft index slot to be exactly Parallel with the Camshaft axis.....This usually allows the distributor advance Diaphragm to be factory located without hitting anything....
Hey 318WR, It looks like a roller block you’re doing the flat edge trick to. I have a 84 360 out of a ramcharger (non roller) I have a .525 lift cam and Factory style hydraulic flat tappets. My question to you is on tdc they don’t protrude past lifter bore like yours, instead they’re recessed so do I have the wrong lifters? Does the truck engine have shorter lifters than the car? Am I okay here or is something not right? Thanks
No, you have the non-roller lifters. You can go off the rockers or push rods, or you can put a short tube or washers (equal in height) using your own imagination to make up the difference
after following your segment on #302 head porting , I installed the 360 valves .
Can you tell me the original installed height of the #302 valves ?
Would like to shim the rocker shafts to correct height , to obtain optimum valve train geometry .
Perhaps you have a formula ?
Thank you for watching! I’m sorry, but I don’t know the 302 install height top of my head
Just put new cam in my la 318. When the motor is tdc on number 6 the dots are at 12 and 6. When number 1 is tdc the cam gear dot is at 12 and crank 6. Was same with the stock cam. I installed the distributor with 6tdc and rotor facing the firewall. Same as when i took it apart. Is this correct? Too much yes and no on the web. Thanks
Sounds correct if I read it right
@@318willrun thanks
The wheel method is a little hard for me to grasp but as a man who has only had used motors and slipped balancer's my life this makes sense to me as the screw driver method is how i get my new zero on a old used worn engine that the balancer or chain has slipped! my 72 Challenger is 10 off from TDC 0 as its New 0 so when im timing i use 10 as my zero and she runs like a champ where if i went of of 0 it ran "Retarded" no pun intended lol......Great Vid
Thank you for watching!!
Question : when you have the crank dot at 12 o'clock and the cam dot at 6 o'clock is the #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke or TDC on the exhaust stroke ? Or is #6 cylinder at TDC of its compression stroke ?
Thanks for watching ! So I'll use your terms... the exhaust stroke. It's where the overlap happens, meaning the exhaust valve is almost shut and the intake valve has already begin to open.
@@318willrun o.k. so, if the crank dot is at 12o'clock and the cam dot is at 12 o'clock is #1 cylinder at TDC of the compression stroke ?
@@tomdamon7208 Yep ! And your rotor should be pointing at the #1 spark plug wire. It'd be ready to fire
I'm dropping a 20-212-2 (268H-10) comp cam into my 360 . The @.050 is 218. My question is, Do i line it up the same on zero or do I need to do any special advancing or retarding? May seem silly to some but just wanting to make sure it's in right the first time. Love the channel bud. Keep it up.
Best way is to degree it using a degreeing wheel according to the cam card supplied by Comp. You can use this method in the video to see if dot to dot on the timing set is kosher on the overlap. 3rd and final method would be to just align the dots and hope it's spot on or very close.
Can I Use a Degree wheel to time a new rebuild with the heads and Intake Manifold on ?
you can, you'll have to use the top of a pushrod or rocker
The inertia ring 3:04
Thank you
If this is the method you want to use just line up the dots on the timing set and go from there. The rest is too inaccurate to make any difference. The author says he got good results and I am sure he did but that is almost completely attributable to just lining up the dots.
Great video ! Did you have to send a core into Oregon Cam Grinding ? Yoshimoshi did a video on the same subject but with a factory magnum cam and it was 10* retarded !
I didn’t send it to them. Thank you for watching
With as much respect as I can muster up, and with no offense to the Author, this information is incomplete!
In order to properly degree in a camshaft, we must first establish true # 1 cylinder TDC.
The most accurate means of locating true TDC will be by using a PPS tool (positive piston stop)
With cylinder heads not yet installed, a cylinder block deck mounted PPS tool can be used.
With cylinder heads in place, a spark plug port PPS tool can be used.
A dial indicator will also work (cylinder heads not yet in place), but only if the # 1 piston's location is checked at 2 different locations in it's travel towards top of stroke.
In other words, we want to stop the piston at lets say 30 degrees before top of travel in one direction of rotation, and then stop it again (in the opposite direction of rotation) at 30 degrees before top of travel. Now we have elimated any error caused by a minor crankshaft movement.
(you can use 25 degrees or 35 degrees..... as long as the same angle is achieved in both directions, it will not matter. I find that 10+/- degrees is not quite enough to acheive the accuracy I am after)
Conversely, when we use a dial indicator to find top of travel only, it still allows for a degree or two of crankshaft movement while the piston appears to be resting at top of travel.
When the PPS tool has been removed, and when the total of the 60 degree angle is split, we rotate the crankshaft until our new marks align.
Now we are at true # 1 cylinder TDC.
NOTE: If the OEM markings need to be corrected, now is the time to do that!
This new TDC starting piont allows us to accurately degree in the camshaft, and equally important, end up with the correct ignition TA (total advance).
One more note..... the reason for phasing or indexing a camshaft, is to compensate for, or correct, any errors that may be incoporated within the cranshaft sprocket or within the camshaft sprocket.
The camshaft itself (during manufacturing) should be properly phased/indexed to it's sprocket's alignment pin bore.
Bottom line...... in order to locate TRUE # 1 TDC, we must use a means of accurately stopping the # 1 piston at XX degrees (before top of travel), and then stop it again at that very same XX degrees (before top of travel) in the opposite direction of rotation.
Then we split this angle by dividing it in half.
Remove the stop..... and there we are!
Again, no offense to the author.
I'm simply adding what I believe to be some much needed clarification.
no offence taken! I think I stated that a degree wheel is best at the beginning of the video. The engine has performed better than expected!
@@318willrun My point is...... why even bother going through this procedure if the intent does not include being accurate? The entire idea behind degreeing a camshaft, is to obtain accuracy!
Using a dial indicator on top of the piston (as you describe with a 4 degree variance), is very inaccurate! A dial indicator can be used, but should be used with a degree wheel, and while obtaining the "split" that I mentioned earlier. By stopping the piston at the same angle in either crankshaft direction, and by then obtaining the split angle, we establish True TDC, of which becomes our base for the rest of the procedure!
The screwdriver via the spark plug port is not a good idea, nor is guessing where true TDC is.
I would suggest reading my previous posting re; the use of a PPS tool and a degree wheel. It is not all that difficult to do.
One last comment...... and again, no offense to you...... people turn to these UA-cam videos for advice, or the "how to", and so on. I believe that we have an un-written responsibility to show these people an accurate means of performing certain tasks.
In other words, I am more concerned that these viewers gain a more complete understanding as to how this is professionally achieved.
@@markemery49 As stated in my home page, "Unprofessional advice, use at your own risk" 😉 However, if they have the same results as I have, they'll be very happy I am sure!!!!
@@318willrun Quoting you; "However, if they have the same results as I have, they'll be very happy I am sure!!!!"
Again, that is my point....... they will end up with the same results as per what you ended up with!
It is so simple to follow the camshaft manufacturer's instructions..... and that begins with first locating TRUE # 1 TDC, and by using a degree wheel and a PPS tool.
@@markemery49 I agree...... I've never gone beyond oil changes, plugs and wires, grease fittings, etc..... NOT EVEN removing valve covers....
Until the other day.....
Ended up having to replace cam, lifters, intake and valve cover gaskets, etc, etc.....
Made me a piston stop in about 5 minutes from a spark plug, a tap to thread the hole left by removing the ceramic, and a bolt... .
Because if I'm gonna learn about it and do it, it's gonna be done as best as can be done.... the right way!!
I degree every cam cause I want to milk every bit of power I can. I use dial indicators to find roll overs and verify. I use Mopar performance and have never had a problem at all. Center lining a cam is different. With a bog block mopar using mopar performance you have to center line the blasted thing.
Yes, as suggested in the video, degree wheel and indicators are the sure way to go. Thanks for watching!
What size cam is that , what are the specs
218/224 @050, .494/.501 on a 1.5 rocker
@@318willrun thanks man, that should help it alot
@@318willrun Lobe separation?
@@reallivehumandrummer4438 I'd have to look at the cam card, don't remember off the top of my head. Didn't I show the cam card in this video? or was it another????
100% inaccurate. 100% Might as well not check anything at all
Never had to use a degree whee.