1 timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, and especially of those who believe.
74 GOOD NEWS VERSES… 1) I Tim 4:10- God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. 2) Eph 1:10- All to be gathered in Christ at the fullness of times. 3) Col 1:20- All to be reconciled by the blood of the cross. 4) Rom 5:18- All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ. 5) Rom 11:32- All locked up in stubbornness that God may be merciful to all. 6) I Cor 15:22- As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. 7) I Tim 2:6- Salvation of ALL testified to in due time. 8) I Tim 2:4- God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth. 9) Eph 1:11- God works all after the council of His will. 10) John 12:47- Jesus came to save ALL. 11) John 4:42- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD. 12) I John 4:14- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD. 13) John 12:32- Jesus draws all to himself. 14) Heb 7:25- Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. 15) Col 1:15- Jesus is firstborn of ALL creation. 16) Col 1:16- By Him ALL things were created. 17) I Cor 15:26- Death (the wages of sin) the last enemy destroyed. 18) Phil 2:9-11- Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. 19) I Cor 12:3- Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit. 20) Roms. 11:26- All Israel shall be saved. 21) Acts 3:20-21- Restitution of all. 22) Luke 2:10- Jesus will be joy to ALL people. 23) Eph 2:7- His grace displayed in ages to come. 24) Heb 8:11-12- All will know God. 25) Titus 2:11- Grace has appeared to all. 26) Rom 8: 19-21- Creation to be set at liberty 27) I Cor 4:5- All will have praise from God. 28) James 5:11- End of the Lord is full of mercy. 29) Rev 15:4- All nations worship when judgments are seen. 30) II Cor 5:17- New creation in Christ. 31) Rom 11:36- All out of God, thru and into Him. 32) Eph 4:10- Jesus will fill ALL things. 33) Rev 5:13- All creation seen praising God. 34) Rev 21: 4-5- No more tears, all things made new. 35) Jn 5:25- All dead who hear will live. 36) Jn 5:28- All in the grave will hear & come forth. 37) I Cor 3:15- All saved, so as by fire. 38) Mark 9:49- Everyone shall be salted by fire. 39) Rom 11:15- Reconciliation of the world. 40) II Cor 5:15- Jesus died for all. 41) John 8:29- He always does what pleases his Father 42) Heb 1:2- He is heir of all things. 43) John 3:35- All have been given into his hand. 44) John 17:2- Jesus will give eternal life to all who His Father give to him. 45) John 13:3- The Father gave Him all things. 46) Isaiah 46:10- God will do all his pleasure. 47) Dan 4:35- God’s will done in heaven and earth. 48) Prv 16:9- Man devises, God direct his steps. 49) Prv 19:21- Man devises But God’s counsel stands. 50) Ps 33:15- God fashions all hearts. 51) Deut 32:39- God kills and makes alive. 52) Ps 90:3- God turns man to destruction, then says return. 53) Lam 3:31-32- God will not cast off forever. 54) Isa 2:2- All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house. 55) Gen 18:18- All families of earth will be blessed. 56) Isa 45:23- All descendants of Israel justified. 57) Ps. 138:4- All kings will praise God. 58) Ps 72:18- God only does wondrous things. 59) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship God. 60) Ps 65:2-4- All flesh will come to God. 61) Ps 66:3-4- Enemies will submit to God. 62) Isa 19: 14-25- Egypt & Assyra will be restored. 63) Ezk 16:55- Sodom will be restored. 65) Ps 22:25-29- All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him. 66) Ps 145:9-10- He is good to all and merciful to all His work. 67) Ps 145:14- God raises all who fall. 68) Ps 145:16- God satisfied the desire of the living. 69) Ps 145:10- All God’s will praise Him. 70) Isa 25:6- Lord makes a feast for all people. 71) Isa 25:7- Will destroy vail over that is spread over all the nations. 72) Isa 25:8- His will swallow up death in Victory. 73) Jer 32:35- Never entered His mind to burn people in fire. 74) Ps 135:6- God does what pleases Him.
Excellent video Dr.Chapp.You speculate at 120.13 that at death maybe a person can still have that last chance for reconciliation with God.I believe that St.Faustina says the exact same thing in her writing and experience of what God told her.
Thank you gentleman for the highly intelligent and interesting discussion, lots of profound things to meditate on here. I converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago and I remember really struggling with this issue and wondering if I could honestly convert if Universalism was not a viable option for a Catholic. I eventually came to the conclusion that it was, for some of the reasons you two went over. I realize that many traditionalist oriented Catholics would probably call us all heretics, but I rarely see them engage with these types of profound arguments you two went over, and you know what, the massa damnata vision that many of them have is simply absurd to put it nicely. I listened/read a lot of David Hart’s reasoning on this before converting and as far as I’m concerned his overarching argument is unanswerable. He even had a 2 hour interview on a fairly popular Catholic UA-cam channel not too long ago and they were very cordial, but they basically had nothing to say to the points he made. These conversations are important, so thank you! Looking forward to that potential interview with David Hart and many other discussions to come. God bless!
74 GOOD NEWS VERSES… 1) I Tim 4:10- God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. 2) Eph 1:10- All to be gathered in Christ at the fullness of times. 3) Col 1:20- All to be reconciled by the blood of the cross. 4) Rom 5:18- All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ. 5) Rom 11:32- All locked up in stubbornness that God may be merciful to all. 6) I Cor 15:22- As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. 7) I Tim 2:6- Salvation of ALL testified to in due time. 8) I Tim 2:4- God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth. 9) Eph 1:11- God works all after the council of His will. 10) John 12:47- Jesus came to save ALL. 11) John 4:42- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD. 12) I John 4:14- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD. 13) John 12:32- Jesus draws all to himself. 14) Heb 7:25- Jesus is able to save to the uttermost. 15) Col 1:15- Jesus is firstborn of ALL creation. 16) Col 1:16- By Him ALL things were created. 17) I Cor 15:26- Death (the wages of sin) the last enemy destroyed. 18) Phil 2:9-11- Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. 19) I Cor 12:3- Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit. 20) Roms. 11:26- All Israel shall be saved. 21) Acts 3:20-21- Restitution of all. 22) Luke 2:10- Jesus will be joy to ALL people. 23) Eph 2:7- His grace displayed in ages to come. 24) Heb 8:11-12- All will know God. 25) Titus 2:11- Grace has appeared to all. 26) Rom 8: 19-21- Creation to be set at liberty 27) I Cor 4:5- All will have praise from God. 28) James 5:11- End of the Lord is full of mercy. 29) Rev 15:4- All nations worship when judgments are seen. 30) II Cor 5:17- New creation in Christ. 31) Rom 11:36- All out of God, thru and into Him. 32) Eph 4:10- Jesus will fill ALL things. 33) Rev 5:13- All creation seen praising God. 34) Rev 21: 4-5- No more tears, all things made new. 35) Jn 5:25- All dead who hear will live. 36) Jn 5:28- All in the grave will hear & come forth. 37) I Cor 3:15- All saved, so as by fire. 38) Mark 9:49- Everyone shall be salted by fire. 39) Rom 11:15- Reconciliation of the world. 40) II Cor 5:15- Jesus died for all. 41) John 8:29- He always does what pleases his Father 42) Heb 1:2- He is heir of all things. 43) John 3:35- All have been given into his hand. 44) John 17:2- Jesus will give eternal life to all who His Father give to him. 45) John 13:3- The Father gave Him all things. 46) Isaiah 46:10- God will do all his pleasure. 47) Dan 4:35- God’s will done in heaven and earth. 48) Prv 16:9- Man devises, God direct his steps. 49) Prv 19:21- Man devises But God’s counsel stands. 50) Ps 33:15- God fashions all hearts. 51) Deut 32:39- God kills and makes alive. 52) Ps 90:3- God turns man to destruction, then says return. 53) Lam 3:31-32- God will not cast off forever. 54) Isa 2:2- All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house. 55) Gen 18:18- All families of earth will be blessed. 56) Isa 45:23- All descendants of Israel justified. 57) Ps. 138:4- All kings will praise God. 58) Ps 72:18- God only does wondrous things. 59) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship God. 60) Ps 65:2-4- All flesh will come to God. 61) Ps 66:3-4- Enemies will submit to God. 62) Isa 19: 14-25- Egypt & Assyra will be restored. 63) Ezk 16:55- Sodom will be restored. 65) Ps 22:25-29- All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him. 66) Ps 145:9-10- He is good to all and merciful to all His work. 67) Ps 145:14- God raises all who fall. 68) Ps 145:16- God satisfied the desire of the living. 69) Ps 145:10- All God’s will praise Him. 70) Isa 25:6- Lord makes a feast for all people. 71) Isa 25:7- Will destroy vail over that is spread over all the nations. 72) Isa 25:8- His will swallow up death in Victory. 73) Jer 32:35- Never entered His mind to burn people in fire. 74) Ps 135:6- God does what pleases Him.
On Donum Veritatis, that makes me think of Teillard de Chardin trying to reconcile the anthropological findings with the Vatican condemning his teaching. Today the Church largely tries to accept these findings even though it doesn’t play nice with the traditional understanding of Original Sin.
Great convo. i also like to take a reductio ad absudum approach to eternal hell. Many will read the eschatological and apocalyptic images in scripture as immediate theological doctrines, but many passages when read that way are rendered absurd. Christ says wide is the path to destruction and few will find the narrow path. The immediate doctrinal approach would have him say that most will definitely be eternally damned and only few will be saved.
'Thou shalt not kill' does not apply to murder of one's own kind only, but to all living beings and this commandment was inscribed in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai. (Leo Tolstoy) The rub, as it were.
I find the scriptures plainly say all will make it in the end however it may be extremely, severely, unfathomably painful. If God Is love and his mercy endures forever and the smoke of the torment pleases God I have to think that pleases him because he knows what it leads to. How could it be God loves us, was willing to die for us, then the second you’re dead he’s just rejoicing enjoying the smell of your roasting undying flesh? The translation issues are also a big deal. I also find it interesting when reading the verses about better to pluck your eye out and chop off your hand is taught to be metaphorical but then at the end of the verse we’re taught by the same pastors and teachers to take the unquenchable fire and undying worms as very very literal. I’m just a guy. Idk anything.
Lovely interview. Buddhism has its own purgatory hells.. No religous culture can exiat without some conxept of hell and damnation.. Buddhist hell realms are just as if not more terrible than the abrahamic ones....reincarnation is contrary to esoteric buddhism and brahmanism. Its a popular belief not necessarily a doctrinal one and is an upaya in the same way eternal hell and damnation are in abrahamic traditions..
I appreciated this discussion. I appreciated the separation of Universalism as held by some, vs apokatastasis (which doesn't deny hell, just ultimately its duration and gives it a purgative nature). My main concern, as you rightly note at 1:07 is how this squares with the Churches understanding of Christ's words. I currently don't see how you can square the two, but I think that would be a field worth delving into.
Thank you for a wonderful conversation. As a modern yogi Buddhist type guy - I couldn’t help but notice how similar many of the topics and conclusions you reached are central to Buddhism/Vedenta (which predates Buddhism). Namely, that sin is harmful to the internal being here and now. ( meditation is the practice of us noticing this turmoil deeper and deeper.) Sin enough and you get to hell, right here right now. Secondly - i loved Jordan’s point about Beingness resisting a utilitarian definition. We raise children for so many reasons beyond simply propagating the species. We raise them to experience the world thru their eyes. Likewise - God is doing that with everything and everyone. In every life circumstance. While simultaneously leading all souls forward thru Grace, across multiple lives. The Infinite contains all finite objects and possibilities. The only thing God cannot do, is not, be ALL of it. It’s infinitely permeable and permissive. And to eternity itself , temporary pain and pleasure of small beings are mere passing glimmers. As the practice of meditation teaches us to appreciate. There is a feminine grace - in wanting to be stretched pulled and pushed deeper deeper. And it’s this feminine quality that the eastern religions have. They understand God as a flexible fabric of possibility. The only permanent thing being Beingness itself. It’s this lack of the sense of play of it ALL, that makes Catholicism feel so stiff and rigid. It must regain this. Best, my brothers 🙏🏼
I believe that the choice that Jesus gave us is not heaven or hell, it’s are you part of Jesus kingdom and are you going to sit on his throne with him and will you reign and rule with him or are you got to be a subject of that kingdom. That’s why Jesus said if you deny me before men I will deny you before the father. Those who follow Jesus will rule over those who rejected him while in the flesh of the body. Unlike all those who lived before Jesus, they were offered a promise land, we are offered to become Gods family and we will rule and rein with Jesus and those who accept him out of the lake of fire they will be the subjects of that kingdom. Those are the ones who in Revelation who are on the new earth and can’t go into the new Jerusalem.
My issue. Universal Salvation sounds most logically inkeeping with Gods moral character and the issue of fairness, like how if I was born in the middle east I'm dramatically more likely to go to hell because I'd almost certainly follow islam. Its just the statistics. Or how some people live a long time and other people a very short time, that's not fair when someone had more time to learn and correct their mistakes. But it sounds more like the Bible teaches Annihilationism just by the wording of the Bible and I would say ECT is an unfathomable possibility that throws everything else into total chaos and disorder which makes it the least likely though unfortunately hinted at in scripture. So all around its so confusing as if it were intentionally so, it could have been clearly spelled out in no uncertain terms and for something so important, you have to ask why it isn't?
You have to switch off too much of your brain to accept these arguments, but the conclusion is so attractive that here we have two obviously very clever people doing just that. What's more, there are plenty of other folks eager to join hands and waltz along that smooth wide slippery road that leads to what they no longer believe in. Padre Pio can’t have been a clever Catholic since when he was told by an atheist that the man did not believe in hell his reply was simply: “You will when you get there”.
So how does one square universalism with apparitions of the Blessed Mother that seem, at least at face value, to show hell and "souls falling into hell like snowflakes" in the context of traditional Church teaching? If you can then sign me up for universalism.
"Souls falling into hell like snowflakes" does not mean they remain in hell forever. (See 1 Corinthians iii,8-15.) Here are some points to ponder... “To [private] revelations, even those approved, we must not and cannot give the assent of Catholic faith, but only that of a human faith, according to the rules of prudence, as these indicate that such revelations are probable and piously credible.” [Pope Benedict XIV: De Servorum Dei Beatificatione et de Beatorum Canonizatione Bk. III, c. 52-53; thus (ch. 53, n. 15)] "Everyone knows that we are fully at liberty to believe or not in private revelations, even those most worthy of credence. Even when the Church approves them, they are merely received as probable and not as indubitable. They are not to be used as deciding questions of history, natural philosophy, philosophy, or theology which are matters of controversy between the Doctors.” [Cardinal Jean Baptiste Francois Pitra (Vatican Librarian of Pope Pius IX)] "Such apparitions or revelations were neither approved nor condemned by the Apostolic See, but only permitted as things to be believed with a merely human faith, according to the tradition they bear, confirmed by suitable testimonies and monuments.” [Sacred Congregation of Rites (circa May 2, 1877)] "When a judgement is to be made about pious traditions, one needs to remember that the Church uses such great prudence in this matter that it does not permit such traditions even to be put in writing without great caution and only if the statement of Urban VIII is placed as a preface. Even if this is done correctly, the Church does not assert the truth of the fact but, unless human arguments for believing it are lacking, simply does not forbid its being believed. So, thirty years ago, the Sacred Council for protecting legitimate rites declared (Decree of May 2, 1877)…” [Pope Pius X: Pascendi Dominici Gregis September 8, 1907 (ASS 40 [1907], 649)] Fr. Benedict Groschel's Rules on Private Revelations: Rule 1. Keep all claims of revelations in perspective. Private revelations 'help the faithful live their faith more fully in a certain period of history.' (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 67) The essential element of true religion is the authentic pursuit of a holy life, not visions or revelations. 'To ecstasy, I prefer the monotony of sacrifice.' [St. Therese of Lisieux] Rule 2. No private revelation comes directly from God and therefore none can be assumed to be inerrantly true. Even an authentic communication from God to an individual is always filtered through the faculties of the person who receives it and may be distorted in transmission. Rule 3. A private revelation by definition is personal and therefore must be carefully applied by those for whom it was meant and only within the limits of ordinary human prudence and never against the teaching of the Church. Hopefully some of what is posted above is of some help.
Have the snowflakes hit the ground yet or are they still falling? If the latter then they may yet be saved. If Our Lady was talking about souls that can never be saved she would be encouraging despair. If she's encouraging, not despair, but prayer and work for the salvation of souls, then that is quite consistent with all souls being salvable. Universalism is not a teaching that everyone is saved automatically without any effort on anyone's part. It's perfectly fitting that, if all are eventually saved, it would be due to maximally heroic efforts on our part. So it is important to ask: does belief that some are already beyond saving and most people will end up that way MORE apt to encourage missionary effort, or less? I think it is LESS apt to do so, despite the opposite being much more commonly presumed.
@@bayreuth79In fact this corresponds some what to the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶1020-1041 How ever, what about Isaiah 66:24? Universally temporary no matter what? Revelation 21:8? Is it reasonable to hope that these cases in no instance are to result in total individual extinction? 🔥 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"
I am still confused as to why a person would support the Catholic Church with it’s traditions that have no basis in Scripture. Why have a pope and cardinals etc? A good discussion but maybe simplify the jargon if possible or slow it down with explanations.
Some fellow can call himself Catholic despite not heeding the teachings of the Church, but that doesn't mean whatever nonsense he espouses is Catholic.
Larry, a point towards the clarification of thought. You theologize yourself into a labyrinth here. Why not step back from pronouncing yourself a universalist (which is, despite all protests and rationalizations insurmountably set against the magisterium) and simply say in truth that we see even the non-homogeneous images in the scriptures (light / darkness / fire, etc.) "through a dark glass" and that we cannot fully know what these images convey "until we are known"? (1 Corinthian 13:12).
What is the effective difference between saying that someone is in a labyrinth and that someone sees thru a glass darkly? It seems you've already conceded the acceptability of that which you caution Larry against. "Don't confuse yourself (labyrinth) by thinking thru confusing (non-homogenous) images because your rational faculty is by nature already confused (glass darkly)." Have I misunderstood you? Forgive me, but your language about stepping back, as if from a ledge, seems a bit rich. Furthermore, I think if you listen again to the conversation, you'll notice that there is no lack of acknowledgement on both sides of the difficulties surrounding the topic; that they don't claim to know what all the images "prove". But we can definitely understand what they "convey", and I don't think this was wiggled around. Lastly, speaking of saying things "simply", you use very strong language that perhaps is more than you meant, and it's not a good look: "[universalism]... is, despite all protests and rationalizations insurmountably set against the magisterium". Pardon me, what on earth leads you to believe we should just believe it because you say it so matter-of-factly?
Jesus takes away the sins of the world,he is the savior of the world.He didn’t come to partition sin but to destroy it.If you don’t believe it why not?How is it the good news if he didn’t destroy death but only contains it?Savior of the world that totally flops at his mission. If A person rejects God it’s because the evil in him has not yet been defeated,yet Jesus says it will be defeated.Jesus gives free will,sin gives the opposite which is bondage. God allowed sin in the world for a greater good,nobody can just randomly pick to be born with sin it’s a design feature he made Marry without sin,so he could have made us without sin but he didn’t.I think because God is love and all good nothing can remain evil forever because evil for the sake of evil can serve no purpose or greater good..The whole point is sinners we are ,Jesus says don’t pick the wrong path it’s very painful,but the rest of the story finishes with victory for us.If you believe in eternal hell and can consign people there you can be quite cruel to people,and use God as an excuse.The church has a history with that unfortunately.Obviously the good in the church far outweighs the bad. I like to think the universal bible verses perfectly correspond to what Jesus said and promised he would do.Just my rambling thoughts here,my apologies I appreciate your video and the courage to do it.
Challenge#2 if hell is not possible then there is no risk to humanity that necessitates the infinite sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Few dead prophets would be sufficient enough.
@@littymarquis764 Yes, exactly! The argument for Christian universalism is based fundamentally on Christ's incarnation, passion, death, and resurrection. Without Christ, where would the hope for a final restoration come from?
Challenge#1 if hell is not possible then free will does not exist. Hell is the function of free will that rejects the authority of God. See original Sin adam and eve.
Freewill was never mentioned once in scripture. Why do you believe it exists? Is god the potter or is he not? Did he tell the end from the beginning? Is he working all in accord too the council of his own will? Does god do all his desire? Well if you don't believe these then you don't believe scripture? If you do them how could you logically believe in freewill?? Bye the way I will say again freewill was not mentioned once. Why do people stand o. Something not ever mentioned and if you read all scripture does not even suggest freewill. All choice is based on subjection. None is free from outer influence ever. Only god has freewill. Very easy too understand if you study all scripture. Only those who don't know believe that theory.
@@danen5 I guess you don't read between the lines. Adam and Eve eating the fruit of good and evil means that they rejected God's authority. The prodigal son demanding his inheritance and leaving his father's authority is using his free will. Those ate examples of using free will with bad consequences. Noah building the ark and surviving the flood is another example of using free will. Is the Bible a technical document that it needs to explicitly say so and so is using free will? We are created in God's image and God is freedom in essence and existence. He deemed humans to have free will. He deemed others don't have them. We call them animals and plants. These never do anything outside the will of God. Many see the burden of free will and rather than carry them deny them. If God agreed that it is too heavy a burden for them, he would made them into an animal instead.
@@Maxfr8 confused with this comment. This is an argument to support hell is forever. Is this suppose to support universal salvation or universalism? Please expound how.
The kind of free will necessary to damn oneself to hell (for eternity, specifically) is a kind of free will that we simply do not possess. That’s just a blunt fact of the universe. We are contingent beings, with contingent freedom. None are truly free.
Clearly, Larry Chap overestimates the Typical American if he thinks the fellow characterized as someone who has poor familiarity with several languages and fluency in but one. More accurately, Mr. Typical American speaks one dialect of English, poorly. :D
The point about sin being committed because we don’t truly believe in God goes so deep for me. It’s the only true way to win against sin
1 timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, and especially of those who believe.
74 GOOD NEWS VERSES…
1) I Tim 4:10- God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.
2) Eph 1:10- All to be gathered in Christ at the fullness of times.
3) Col 1:20- All to be reconciled by the blood of the cross.
4) Rom 5:18- All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ.
5) Rom 11:32- All locked up in stubbornness that God may be merciful to all.
6) I Cor 15:22- As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.
7) I Tim 2:6- Salvation of ALL testified to in due time.
8) I Tim 2:4- God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth.
9) Eph 1:11- God works all after the council of His will.
10) John 12:47- Jesus came to save ALL.
11) John 4:42- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD.
12) I John 4:14- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD.
13) John 12:32- Jesus draws all to himself.
14) Heb 7:25- Jesus is able to save to the uttermost.
15) Col 1:15- Jesus is firstborn of ALL creation.
16) Col 1:16- By Him ALL things were created.
17) I Cor 15:26- Death (the wages of sin) the last enemy destroyed.
18) Phil 2:9-11- Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.
19) I Cor 12:3- Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit.
20) Roms. 11:26- All Israel shall be saved.
21) Acts 3:20-21- Restitution of all.
22) Luke 2:10- Jesus will be joy to ALL people.
23) Eph 2:7- His grace displayed in ages to come.
24) Heb 8:11-12- All will know God.
25) Titus 2:11- Grace has appeared to all.
26) Rom 8: 19-21- Creation to be set at liberty
27) I Cor 4:5- All will have praise from God.
28) James 5:11- End of the Lord is full of mercy.
29) Rev 15:4- All nations worship when judgments are seen.
30) II Cor 5:17- New creation in Christ.
31) Rom 11:36- All out of God, thru and into Him.
32) Eph 4:10- Jesus will fill ALL things.
33) Rev 5:13- All creation seen praising God.
34) Rev 21: 4-5- No more tears, all things made new.
35) Jn 5:25- All dead who hear will live.
36) Jn 5:28- All in the grave will hear & come forth.
37) I Cor 3:15- All saved, so as by fire.
38) Mark 9:49- Everyone shall be salted by fire.
39) Rom 11:15- Reconciliation of the world.
40) II Cor 5:15- Jesus died for all.
41) John 8:29- He always does what pleases his Father
42) Heb 1:2- He is heir of all things.
43) John 3:35- All have been given into his hand.
44) John 17:2- Jesus will give eternal life to all who His Father give to him.
45) John 13:3- The Father gave Him all things.
46) Isaiah 46:10- God will do all his pleasure.
47) Dan 4:35- God’s will done in heaven and earth.
48) Prv 16:9- Man devises, God direct his steps.
49) Prv 19:21- Man devises But God’s counsel stands.
50) Ps 33:15- God fashions all hearts.
51) Deut 32:39- God kills and makes alive.
52) Ps 90:3- God turns man to destruction, then says return.
53) Lam 3:31-32- God will not cast off forever.
54) Isa 2:2- All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house.
55) Gen 18:18- All families of earth will be blessed.
56) Isa 45:23- All descendants of Israel justified.
57) Ps. 138:4- All kings will praise God.
58) Ps 72:18- God only does wondrous things.
59) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship God.
60) Ps 65:2-4- All flesh will come to God.
61) Ps 66:3-4- Enemies will submit to God.
62) Isa 19: 14-25- Egypt & Assyra will be restored.
63) Ezk 16:55- Sodom will be restored.
65) Ps 22:25-29- All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him.
66) Ps 145:9-10- He is good to all and merciful to all His work.
67) Ps 145:14- God raises all who fall.
68) Ps 145:16- God satisfied the desire of the living.
69) Ps 145:10- All God’s will praise Him.
70) Isa 25:6- Lord makes a feast for all people.
71) Isa 25:7- Will destroy vail over that is spread over all the nations.
72) Isa 25:8- His will swallow up death in Victory.
73) Jer 32:35- Never entered His mind to burn people in fire.
74) Ps 135:6- God does what pleases Him.
There's a good Chapp !!!
thank you both for this! watched it, then went back to part 1, and then this again. the last quarter was amazing. would love more of that unpacked.
Excellent video Dr.Chapp.You speculate at 120.13 that at death maybe a person can still have that last chance for reconciliation with God.I believe that St.Faustina says the exact same thing in her writing and experience of what God told her.
Thank you gentleman for the highly intelligent and interesting discussion, lots of profound things to meditate on here.
I converted to Catholicism a couple of years ago and I remember really struggling with this issue and wondering if I could honestly convert if Universalism was not a viable option for a Catholic. I eventually came to the conclusion that it was, for some of the reasons you two went over. I realize that many traditionalist oriented Catholics would probably call us all heretics, but I rarely see them engage with these types of profound arguments you two went over, and you know what, the massa damnata vision that many of them have is simply absurd to put it nicely. I listened/read a lot of David Hart’s reasoning on this before converting and as far as I’m concerned his overarching argument is unanswerable. He even had a 2 hour interview on a fairly popular Catholic UA-cam channel not too long ago and they were very cordial, but they basically had nothing to say to the points he made.
These conversations are important, so thank you! Looking forward to that potential interview with David Hart and many other discussions to come. God bless!
Do you know the name of the interview with the Catholic and David Bentley Hart? Would like to check that one out.
Yes it’s on the Reason and Theology channel. It’s more like 2 hours long actually, not 2.5. Here’s the link!
ua-cam.com/video/34YSGSrAA5o/v-deo.html
Thanks for sharing! Great interview!
Great discussion! Thank yall
Excellent discussion.
❤
AMEN
74 GOOD NEWS VERSES…
1) I Tim 4:10- God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers.
2) Eph 1:10- All to be gathered in Christ at the fullness of times.
3) Col 1:20- All to be reconciled by the blood of the cross.
4) Rom 5:18- All condemned in Adam, all justified in Christ.
5) Rom 11:32- All locked up in stubbornness that God may be merciful to all.
6) I Cor 15:22- As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.
7) I Tim 2:6- Salvation of ALL testified to in due time.
8) I Tim 2:4- God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth.
9) Eph 1:11- God works all after the council of His will.
10) John 12:47- Jesus came to save ALL.
11) John 4:42- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD.
12) I John 4:14- Jesus is Saviour of the WORLD.
13) John 12:32- Jesus draws all to himself.
14) Heb 7:25- Jesus is able to save to the uttermost.
15) Col 1:15- Jesus is firstborn of ALL creation.
16) Col 1:16- By Him ALL things were created.
17) I Cor 15:26- Death (the wages of sin) the last enemy destroyed.
18) Phil 2:9-11- Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.
19) I Cor 12:3- Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit.
20) Roms. 11:26- All Israel shall be saved.
21) Acts 3:20-21- Restitution of all.
22) Luke 2:10- Jesus will be joy to ALL people.
23) Eph 2:7- His grace displayed in ages to come.
24) Heb 8:11-12- All will know God.
25) Titus 2:11- Grace has appeared to all.
26) Rom 8: 19-21- Creation to be set at liberty
27) I Cor 4:5- All will have praise from God.
28) James 5:11- End of the Lord is full of mercy.
29) Rev 15:4- All nations worship when judgments are seen.
30) II Cor 5:17- New creation in Christ.
31) Rom 11:36- All out of God, thru and into Him.
32) Eph 4:10- Jesus will fill ALL things.
33) Rev 5:13- All creation seen praising God.
34) Rev 21: 4-5- No more tears, all things made new.
35) Jn 5:25- All dead who hear will live.
36) Jn 5:28- All in the grave will hear & come forth.
37) I Cor 3:15- All saved, so as by fire.
38) Mark 9:49- Everyone shall be salted by fire.
39) Rom 11:15- Reconciliation of the world.
40) II Cor 5:15- Jesus died for all.
41) John 8:29- He always does what pleases his Father
42) Heb 1:2- He is heir of all things.
43) John 3:35- All have been given into his hand.
44) John 17:2- Jesus will give eternal life to all who His Father give to him.
45) John 13:3- The Father gave Him all things.
46) Isaiah 46:10- God will do all his pleasure.
47) Dan 4:35- God’s will done in heaven and earth.
48) Prv 16:9- Man devises, God direct his steps.
49) Prv 19:21- Man devises But God’s counsel stands.
50) Ps 33:15- God fashions all hearts.
51) Deut 32:39- God kills and makes alive.
52) Ps 90:3- God turns man to destruction, then says return.
53) Lam 3:31-32- God will not cast off forever.
54) Isa 2:2- All nations shall flow to the Lord’s house.
55) Gen 18:18- All families of earth will be blessed.
56) Isa 45:23- All descendants of Israel justified.
57) Ps. 138:4- All kings will praise God.
58) Ps 72:18- God only does wondrous things.
59) Ps 86:9 All nations will worship God.
60) Ps 65:2-4- All flesh will come to God.
61) Ps 66:3-4- Enemies will submit to God.
62) Isa 19: 14-25- Egypt & Assyra will be restored.
63) Ezk 16:55- Sodom will be restored.
65) Ps 22:25-29- All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him.
66) Ps 145:9-10- He is good to all and merciful to all His work.
67) Ps 145:14- God raises all who fall.
68) Ps 145:16- God satisfied the desire of the living.
69) Ps 145:10- All God’s will praise Him.
70) Isa 25:6- Lord makes a feast for all people.
71) Isa 25:7- Will destroy vail over that is spread over all the nations.
72) Isa 25:8- His will swallow up death in Victory.
73) Jer 32:35- Never entered His mind to burn people in fire.
74) Ps 135:6- God does what pleases Him.
On Donum Veritatis, that makes me think of Teillard de Chardin trying to reconcile the anthropological findings with the Vatican condemning his teaching. Today the Church largely tries to accept these findings even though it doesn’t play nice with the traditional understanding of Original Sin.
Great convo. i also like to take a reductio ad absudum approach to eternal hell. Many will read the eschatological and apocalyptic images in scripture as immediate theological doctrines, but many passages when read that way are rendered absurd. Christ says wide is the path to destruction and few will find the narrow path. The immediate doctrinal approach would have him say that most will definitely be eternally damned and only few will be saved.
'Thou shalt not kill' does not apply to murder of one's own kind only, but to all living beings and this commandment was inscribed in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai. (Leo Tolstoy) The rub, as it were.
I find the scriptures plainly say all will make it in the end however it may be extremely, severely, unfathomably painful. If God Is love and his mercy endures forever and the smoke of the torment pleases God I have to think that pleases him because he knows what it leads to. How could it be God loves us, was willing to die for us, then the second you’re dead he’s just rejoicing enjoying the smell of your roasting undying flesh? The translation issues are also a big deal.
I also find it interesting when reading the verses about better to pluck your eye out and chop off your hand is taught to be metaphorical but then at the end of the verse we’re taught by the same pastors and teachers to take the unquenchable fire and undying worms as very very literal.
I’m just a guy. Idk anything.
Lovely interview. Buddhism has its own purgatory hells.. No religous culture can exiat without some conxept of hell and damnation.. Buddhist hell realms are just as if not more terrible than the abrahamic ones....reincarnation is contrary to esoteric buddhism and brahmanism. Its a popular belief not necessarily a doctrinal one and is an upaya in the same way eternal hell and damnation are in abrahamic traditions..
I appreciated this discussion. I appreciated the separation of Universalism as held by some, vs apokatastasis (which doesn't deny hell, just ultimately its duration and gives it a purgative nature). My main concern, as you rightly note at 1:07 is how this squares with the Churches understanding of Christ's words. I currently don't see how you can square the two, but I think that would be a field worth delving into.
22:00
Thank you for a wonderful conversation. As a modern yogi Buddhist type guy - I couldn’t help but notice how similar many of the topics and conclusions you reached are central to Buddhism/Vedenta (which predates Buddhism).
Namely, that sin is harmful to the internal being here and now. ( meditation is the practice of us noticing this turmoil deeper and deeper.) Sin enough and you get to hell, right here right now.
Secondly - i loved Jordan’s point about Beingness resisting a utilitarian definition. We raise children for so many reasons beyond simply propagating the species. We raise them to experience the world thru their eyes. Likewise - God is doing that with everything and everyone. In every life circumstance. While simultaneously leading all souls forward thru Grace, across multiple lives.
The Infinite contains all finite objects and possibilities. The only thing God cannot do, is not, be ALL of it. It’s infinitely permeable and permissive. And to eternity itself , temporary pain and pleasure of small beings are mere passing glimmers. As the practice of meditation teaches us to appreciate.
There is a feminine grace - in wanting to be stretched pulled and pushed deeper deeper.
And it’s this feminine quality that the eastern religions have. They understand God as a flexible fabric of possibility. The only permanent thing being Beingness itself. It’s this lack of the sense of play of it ALL, that makes Catholicism feel so stiff and rigid. It must regain this.
Best, my brothers 🙏🏼
Totally random aside: your opening theme sounds quite fun at 1.75 speed!
How would you respond to someone who says that the "hoping all will be saved" is heretical per Pope Pius IX's Syllabus of Errors?
Pope Francis has stated publicly that he hopes hell is empty. Can the Pope himself be a heretic?
There is a sense of envy regarding prying. If they can get away with something perhaps I can too
Is the guest ever going to be able to speak?
I believe that the choice that Jesus gave us is not heaven or hell, it’s are you part of Jesus kingdom and are you going to sit on his throne with him and will you reign and rule with him or are you got to be a subject of that kingdom. That’s why Jesus said if you deny me before men I will deny you before the father. Those who follow Jesus will rule over those who rejected him while in the flesh of the body. Unlike all those who lived before Jesus, they were offered a promise land, we are offered to become Gods family and we will rule and rein with Jesus and those who accept him out of the lake of fire they will be the subjects of that kingdom. Those are the ones who in Revelation who are on the new earth and can’t go into the new Jerusalem.
My issue. Universal Salvation sounds most logically inkeeping with Gods moral character and the issue of fairness, like how if I was born in the middle east I'm dramatically more likely to go to hell because I'd almost certainly follow islam. Its just the statistics. Or how some people live a long time and other people a very short time, that's not fair when someone had more time to learn and correct their mistakes. But it sounds more like the Bible teaches Annihilationism just by the wording of the Bible and I would say ECT is an unfathomable possibility that throws everything else into total chaos and disorder which makes it the least likely though unfortunately hinted at in scripture. So all around its so confusing as if it were intentionally so, it could have been clearly spelled out in no uncertain terms and for something so important, you have to ask why it isn't?
You have to switch off too much of your brain to accept these arguments, but the conclusion is so attractive that here we have two obviously very clever people doing just that. What's more, there are plenty of other folks eager to join hands and waltz along that smooth wide slippery road that leads to what they no longer believe in.
Padre Pio can’t have been a clever Catholic since when he was told by an atheist that the man did not believe in hell his reply was simply: “You will when you get there”.
Did you want to put forward an argument? Or did you just want us switch off our brains and agree with you?
Am I meant to switch off my brain just because you threw a Padre Pio quote on me?
You offered zero arguments against the position, which is typical.
So how does one square universalism with apparitions of the Blessed Mother that seem, at least at face value, to show hell and "souls falling into hell like snowflakes" in the context of traditional Church teaching? If you can then sign me up for universalism.
"Souls falling into hell like snowflakes" does not mean they remain in hell forever. (See 1 Corinthians iii,8-15.)
Here are some points to ponder...
“To [private] revelations, even those approved, we must not and cannot give the assent of Catholic faith, but only that of a human faith, according to the rules of prudence, as these indicate that such revelations are probable and piously credible.” [Pope Benedict XIV: De Servorum Dei Beatificatione et de Beatorum Canonizatione Bk. III, c. 52-53; thus (ch. 53, n. 15)]
"Everyone knows that we are fully at liberty to believe or not in private revelations, even those most worthy of credence. Even when the Church approves them, they are merely received as probable and not as indubitable. They are not to be used as deciding questions of history, natural philosophy, philosophy, or theology which are matters of controversy between the Doctors.” [Cardinal Jean Baptiste Francois Pitra (Vatican Librarian of Pope Pius IX)]
"Such apparitions or revelations were neither approved nor condemned by the Apostolic See, but only permitted as things to be believed with a merely human faith, according to the tradition they bear, confirmed by suitable testimonies and monuments.” [Sacred Congregation of Rites (circa May 2, 1877)]
"When a judgement is to be made about pious traditions, one needs to remember that the Church uses such great prudence in this matter that it does not permit such traditions even to be put in writing without great caution and only if the statement of Urban VIII is placed as a preface. Even if this is done correctly, the Church does not assert the truth of the fact but, unless human arguments for believing it are lacking, simply does not forbid its being believed. So, thirty years ago, the Sacred Council for protecting legitimate rites declared (Decree of May 2, 1877)…” [Pope Pius X: Pascendi Dominici Gregis September 8, 1907 (ASS 40 [1907], 649)]
Fr. Benedict Groschel's Rules on Private Revelations:
Rule 1. Keep all claims of revelations in perspective. Private revelations 'help the faithful live their faith more fully in a certain period of history.' (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 67) The essential element of true religion is the authentic pursuit of a holy life, not visions or revelations. 'To ecstasy, I prefer the monotony of sacrifice.' [St. Therese of Lisieux]
Rule 2. No private revelation comes directly from God and therefore none can be assumed to be inerrantly true. Even an authentic communication from God to an individual is always filtered through the faculties of the person who receives it and may be distorted in transmission.
Rule 3. A private revelation by definition is personal and therefore must be carefully applied by those for whom it was meant and only within the limits of ordinary human prudence and never against the teaching of the Church.
Hopefully some of what is posted above is of some help.
Universalists believe in hell, they just don’t think that it’s eternal. So, it’s straightforward to reconcile Marian apparitions with universalism
Have the snowflakes hit the ground yet or are they still falling? If the latter then they may yet be saved. If Our Lady was talking about souls that can never be saved she would be encouraging despair. If she's encouraging, not despair, but prayer and work for the salvation of souls, then that is quite consistent with all souls being salvable. Universalism is not a teaching that everyone is saved automatically without any effort on anyone's part. It's perfectly fitting that, if all are eventually saved, it would be due to maximally heroic efforts on our part. So it is important to ask: does belief that some are already beyond saving and most people will end up that way MORE apt to encourage missionary effort, or less? I think it is LESS apt to do so, despite the opposite being much more commonly presumed.
@@bayreuth79In fact this corresponds some what to the 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church ¶1020-1041
How ever, what about Isaiah 66:24? Universally temporary no matter what? Revelation 21:8? Is it reasonable to hope that these cases in no instance are to result in total individual extinction?
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"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"
I am still confused as to why a person would support the Catholic Church with it’s traditions that have no basis in Scripture. Why have a pope and cardinals etc? A good discussion but maybe simplify the jargon if possible or slow it down with explanations.
Some fellow can call himself Catholic despite not heeding the teachings of the Church, but that doesn't mean whatever nonsense he espouses is Catholic.
Larry, a point towards the clarification of thought. You theologize yourself into a labyrinth here. Why not step back from pronouncing yourself a universalist (which is, despite all protests and rationalizations insurmountably set against the magisterium) and simply say in truth that we see even the non-homogeneous images in the scriptures (light / darkness / fire, etc.) "through a dark glass" and that we cannot fully know what these images convey "until we are known"? (1 Corinthian 13:12).
What is the effective difference between saying that someone is in a labyrinth and that someone sees thru a glass darkly? It seems you've already conceded the acceptability of that which you caution Larry against.
"Don't confuse yourself (labyrinth) by thinking thru confusing (non-homogenous) images because your rational faculty is by nature already confused (glass darkly)."
Have I misunderstood you?
Forgive me, but your language about stepping back, as if from a ledge, seems a bit rich.
Furthermore, I think if you listen again to the conversation, you'll notice that there is no lack of acknowledgement on both sides of the difficulties surrounding the topic; that they don't claim to know what all the images "prove". But we can definitely understand what they "convey", and I don't think this was wiggled around.
Lastly, speaking of saying things "simply", you use very strong language that perhaps is more than you meant, and it's not a good look: "[universalism]... is, despite all protests and rationalizations insurmountably set against the magisterium". Pardon me, what on earth leads you to believe we should just believe it because you say it so matter-of-factly?
Jesus takes away the sins of the world,he is the savior of the world.He didn’t come to partition sin but to destroy it.If you don’t believe it why not?How is it the good news if he didn’t destroy death but only contains it?Savior of the world that totally flops at his mission.
If A person rejects God it’s because the evil in him has not yet been defeated,yet Jesus says it will be defeated.Jesus gives free will,sin gives the opposite which is bondage.
God allowed sin in the world for a greater good,nobody can just randomly pick to be born with sin it’s a design feature he made Marry without sin,so he could have made us without sin but he didn’t.I think because God is love and all good nothing can remain evil forever because evil for the sake of evil can serve no purpose or greater good..The whole point is sinners we are ,Jesus says don’t pick the wrong path it’s very painful,but the rest of the story finishes with victory for us.If you believe in eternal hell and can consign people there you can be quite cruel to people,and use God as an excuse.The church has a history with that unfortunately.Obviously the good in the church far outweighs the bad.
I like to think the universal bible verses perfectly correspond to what Jesus said and promised he would do.Just my rambling thoughts here,my apologies I appreciate your video and the courage to do it.
Challenge#2 if hell is not possible then there is no risk to humanity that necessitates the infinite sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. Few dead prophets would be sufficient enough.
could one suggest that the reason why Hell isn't possible is BECAUSE Christ redeemed humanity?
@@littymarquis764 Yes, exactly! The argument for Christian universalism is based fundamentally on Christ's incarnation, passion, death, and resurrection. Without Christ, where would the hope for a final restoration come from?
Challenge#1 if hell is not possible then free will does not exist. Hell is the function of free will that rejects the authority of God. See original Sin adam and eve.
Freewill was never mentioned once in scripture. Why do you believe it exists? Is god the potter or is he not? Did he tell the end from the beginning? Is he working all in accord too the council of his own will? Does god do all his desire? Well if you don't believe these then you don't believe scripture? If you do them how could you logically believe in freewill?? Bye the way I will say again freewill was not mentioned once. Why do people stand o. Something not ever mentioned and if you read all scripture does not even suggest freewill. All choice is based on subjection. None is free from outer influence ever. Only god has freewill. Very easy too understand if you study all scripture. Only those who don't know believe that theory.
@@danen5 I guess you don't read between the lines. Adam and Eve eating the fruit of good and evil means that they rejected God's authority. The prodigal son demanding his inheritance and leaving his father's authority is using his free will. Those ate examples of using free will with bad consequences. Noah building the ark and surviving the flood is another example of using free will. Is the Bible a technical document that it needs to explicitly say so and so is using free will? We are created in God's image and God is freedom in essence and existence. He deemed humans to have free will. He deemed others don't have them. We call them animals and plants. These never do anything outside the will of God. Many see the burden of free will and rather than carry them deny them. If God agreed that it is too heavy a burden for them, he would made them into an animal instead.
Sins are forever, unless wiped away by Christ's blood. For those with egregious sin, they are forever damned.
Read Scripture sometime.
@@Maxfr8 confused with this comment. This is an argument to support hell is forever. Is this suppose to support universal salvation or universalism? Please expound how.
The kind of free will necessary to damn oneself to hell (for eternity, specifically) is a kind of free will that we simply do not possess. That’s just a blunt fact of the universe. We are contingent beings, with contingent freedom. None are truly free.
Clearly, Larry Chap overestimates the Typical American if he thinks the fellow characterized as someone who has poor familiarity with several languages and fluency in but one. More accurately, Mr. Typical American speaks one dialect of English, poorly. :D
Not a very charitable comment. You sound like an ass.