Why Guinan Should Actually Have Counselor Troi's Job
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- Опубліковано 12 лют 2019
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Speaking of Troi bashing... you know how people talk about Generations and are like "lol, Troi flew the ship for 5 minutes and it crashed. Terrible." Well, actually... Troi took the helm while riding the wake of a warp core breach. Then, flying on partial power falling into a planet's gravity well she safely crash-landed the ship with no casualties. And piloting isn't even her job. Well done, Counselor.
I like to joke more about how Riker takes command for a few minutes and blows up the ship. Guess that is why Picard doesn't let time go take his own ship.
"lol, Troi flew the ship for 5 minutes and it crashed. Terrible." Anyone who says that is either being deliberately obtuse or didn't actually watch the scene.
She probably had training for Starship helming and navigation; I wouldn't be surprised if that was a required course at Starfleet Academy. How else would Nova Squadron would have been able to recruit a bunch of adolescents to pilot those craft for commencement exercises without that required training?
And she clearly says that helm control is off line
Hear, hear!
One of my favorite Guinan moments was in the otherwise-forgettable "The Dauphin" where Wesley falls in and out of love. He says "I'll never feel this way again." Guinan replies, unexpectedly, "You're right, you won't. Each one will feel different." Very solid advice for a forlorn teen. That bit has stuck with me for a lot of years.
It was a great line,each love will be different
I think this is part of why I’m polyamorous. Funnily enough
Troi is there for people who ask for counseling, whether they need it or not. Guinan is there for people who need counseling, whether they ask for it or not.
Troi is your typical college RA. Guinan is your mom.
this made me laugh so much i had to share it with friends
Troi forces people to go to counselling
She does so on more than one occassion.
Well that sums it up correctly.
Excellent analogies. +1
I think you got it spot on. I never saw Troi as a tactical adviser but a psychiatrist. But, as was brought out in the TOS first pilot The Cage, the doctor gives Pike a drink and says "sometimes a man will tell his bartender things he will never say to his doctor."
Personally the best thing that happened to troi was when they gave her a real uniform. Props to jellico
Another reason why Jellico was a great captain.
She rocked that uniform.
Jellico is the Captain we need, but not the Captain we want.
I don't know how much seeing her in a uniform skews people's opinions, as she "looks" more professional. However, I do agree that the character shortly thereafter got better as she seemed to develop more depth to her character and you see more motivations, drive and ambition.
#PropsToJelico
I always felt like Guinan was the “chaplain” of the ship. More of a spiritual advisor than a psychologist
The writing of Deanna Troi breaks my heart because I really feel there was a place for her character on a exploration/military ship. Imagine all the trauma people had to deal with being in battles, being abducted, all the weird Q situations and the like, losing family members, the Borg threat and interactions, being on a ship so far from their home planet for such long time periods, work load, sexual frustration (the holodeck might only be able to help so much at times), etc etc. I feel mental health is so severely under played in most media, I'd love to see good representation of it.
Dr Boyce told Captain Pike once... "Sometimes, a man'll tell his bartender things he'll... never tell his doctor." the perfect quote to sum it all up
I had just rewatched TOS on Netflix, and I wanted to say that. Thanks for beating me to it and doing it better.
I know I had.
And made Pike a martini. I love Dr. Boyce
"Bad characters don't exist. What exist are bad writers."
Alan Moore
@@Reggie1408 only because of bad writing usually, that and bad character design by the writers.
@@zonmoy that's what he said.
Wesley Crusher tho
Both can exist.
Guinan even told Ensign Roe it was OK to be a kid at times. Life did not always need to be so serious.
That was the end of the ST TNG episode "Rascals," right? Loved that episode!
*Ro
The problem with Troi lies with the writers. As stated in the video, one of her principal jobs would be helping the crew members deal with job stress. Maybe the writers should have had a technical adviser who knew something about professional therapists. That alone could have been a basis of several episodes. Helping Picard after being tortured by Cardasians, assimilated by the Borg, living a compressed live in "Inner Light"; Riker's issues with his dad, or after being tortured in an insane asylum on an away mission; Barkley after getting turned into a spider; and about a million other missed opportunities for subtle and complex story-telling.
Also keep in mind the show wanted to write out or kill off Troi after the first season, as the show writers didn't know what to do with Troi.
I would have loved that. Plenty of other examples too. Worf only tries to commit suicide twice so I’m sure he doesn’t need counselling /s
@@mimnimpetite8681 He never tried to commit suicide impulsively. Always after deliberation. Always in line with his culture and their deeply held beleive of "honor before death". And the one time I can remember, he did it to escape a "fate worse then death" - being a crippled Klingon with no hope of recovery. Until he was given a hope of recovery.
Assisted sucide is one of the many issues of the day, TNG devled into: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicide
Just one of the issues we have not yet fully legalized, after 3 decades of TNG's run.
Don't forget about Geordi getting tortured and brainwashed by the Romulans. The ending touches on it for about 10 seconds, but should have gone way more in depth
The writers are also to blame, but so are the showrunners. She shouldn't have been a featured character. This is partially what made Guinan so great. When Guinan showed up it meant something. Troi was usually just... there. It's true that they could have done a better job with her, but she really didn't need the presence that she did.
My favorite episodes involving Troi were when they actually gave her something to do that involved more than sensing what an alien was feeling. When she was kidnapped and made to look like a Romulan, or had to take command during the quantum string incident were good examples of this. Unfortunately they were few and far between.
Troi mediates Federation policy implementation. She’s a compliance officer.
Whoopi is a sage. She shares wisdom.
Guinan is a therapist. Troi is a school guidance councillor
Well said
@@Stettafire Guinan should've been there from " Encounter at Farpoint " to the finale. Troi is / was EYE CANDY. Never mind that Ten - Forward wasn't there in the 1st couple of seasons.
Then there's Ezri Dax, who saved the Klingon Empire and thus the entire Alpha Quadrant. Now that's some quality counseling.
Wait, what? When did Ezri ever do that?
kingbeauregard -- Ezri also called out Worf on what a load of BS the whole "Klingon Honour" thing was.
@@donsample1002 That was one of the best scenes in all of Trek.
Though I would say that she was somewhat bested by a lounge singer. But she was way better at getting on her feet than Troi ever was. I like her struggling with becoming joined.
@@Spike-Prime Very near the end of DS9, things were looking bad for the good guys. The Dominion had figured out how to disable the warp engines on all the Federation and Romulan ships, so the only power still standing against the Dominion was the Klingon Empire, and they were stretched mighty thin. And right about then, Chancellor Gowron started going on a massive power trip, sending Klingons on futile missions for no reason. Worf and Martok and everyone were willing to put up with it because, as good Klingons, they felt their job was to obey orders. It was Ezri who convinced Worf that the Klingon Empire was highly dysfunctional (a counselor's interpretation for sure), that for all the talk of honor, the Klingons kept putting dishonorable people in charge, and if even an honorable guy like Worf was okay with that, what hope was there for the Empire? Next time Gowron issued an idiotic suicidal order, Worf challenged him on it, and battled him to the death. Worf became the new Chancellor, and turned around and made General Martok the Chancellor; Martok immediately started issuing sane orders and saved the day.
I recall an interview snipit of Marina revealing that she wished she'd pushed the writers more to give her more material to work with.
She compared it to Robert Picardo who brought tons of ideas to the STV writers, which is why the EMH had so much development and adventures.
And who among us haven't wished we could be more like Robert Picardo? Relatable goal!
The difference is that Picardo was male. Sexism was sort of baked into the shows until Voyager. Even DS9's Major Kira was just playing around with the bitch trope.
@@Magnulus76 So true! The writers lost both Yar and Crusher in the second year and still didn't make an attempt to improve Troi's or Polaski's storylines!
When she was a romulan...she was awesome!!! one of the best Troi episodes.
Though I always have wondered how that would have worked? Wouldn't the Romulans notice, that her Speech is coming from the Universal Translator, and that she is not actually speaking Romulan?
I liked the one where she was the ranking officer on the Bridge. She had no clue if anyone in engineering was still alive and had two crew members giving her conflicting advice.
@@jerome96114 Maybe she DOES speak Romulan. I don't think anyone ever mentions the Universal Translator in that episode, and it's very possible that Deanna could speak more than two languages. Picard speaks Klingon, afterall.
@@jasontodd9 Picard can insult in Klingon, that's true mastery of a language.
"Face of the Enemy" was a fantastic episode, and it was a shame that Marina Sirtis didn't get more episodes like it during the series run.
Troi's main issue is, for all the focus on scientific accuracy (for the time) and further speculation on technologies from there, they clearly had no psychologists on the writing staff.
This! So much of this!
That's because they're working against a budget of X bucks per episode. That said, if they hired at least one psychologist or social workers, they would have been able to afford doing so: the alternative was to hire a more expensive advisor like a psychiatrist, who's actually a highly trained physician specializing in mental health issues.
I wish they'd have made her a civilian diplomat, a Federation Ambassador Plenipotentiary. Since she's serving on the flagship and all, and its mission is far more diplomatic than military over the series run. It would have been nice for her to have been something of a civilian foil to Riker to advise the captain on diplomatic missions, or even to have taken on some of Picard's role in that regard. And it might have given her a better reason to have been on the bridge.
I think that they should have re-focused Troi's job function. I would imagine that a closed ship with limited personnel might cause stress and interpersonal issues. Keeping people calm and focused would be good for morale.
Isn't Picard usually tasked with the role of Ambassador/Negotiator/Arbiter etc.
Hindsight is always 20/20, but looking back its still a bit fuzzy..
Megadeth
Also a 'contact specialist' in some books set earlier.
The trouble is no one's heard the word Plenipotentiary.
Marina Sirtis is awesome, despite Deanna Troi character problems I like her personality and charm. Guinan is providing something rarely addressed in sci-fi: WISDOM.
agreed :) Troi would provide hugs when I am sad and Guinan would provide wisdom due to her being a wise old sage who has been around over 500 years. :)
In fairness to Troi:
When it comes to Guinan being a better advisor about alien intentions than Troi: In the case of the Borg, YES- but as you note, that's because Guinan just happens to be a member of a race devastated by the Borg. In the case of "Yesterday's Enterprise," Guinan just happens to have a weird power that enables her to sense an altered timeline- something no one in the Federation could have foreseen when she was assigned to the Enterprise. If Troi's job was 'be canary in the coal mine for timeline changes' instead of 'use her psychic powers to read the emotions of others,' then clearly yes, Guinan would be better qualified- but that's not Troi's job description.
Conversely, your argument that "no Troi on a battleship!Enterprise means she has no tactical value" strikes me as flawed. The difference between normal!Enterprise and the battleship!Enterprise of the alternate timeline is that normal!Enterprise spends much of its time on missions of negotiation and diplomacy, whereas battleship!Enterprise spends much of its time fighting Klingons.
An emotion-reading telepath is not helpful for fighting Klingons ("Captain, they're hostile, they're *always* hostile, why did you ask?") She may be very useful for negotiations.
And indeed, she often IS useful. Not in literally every episode, but in numerous episodes scattered throughout the series. And sometimes her most surprising advice is "Captain, I don't sense anything" or "I sense no deception," ironically. Because very often that signals to the captain that this particular person *isn't* lying, or that there *isn't* a trick. Something that it would be very, very hard to assure yourself of without your psychic advisor reading people's minds.
...
I think you're right that Guinan serves as a personal advisor to Picard better than Troi does- but arguably this simply illustrates the difference between being Picard's therapist and being his friend. Your therapist's job isn't to help you make tough decisions, it's to give you the psychological tools to make those decisions yourself. Plus, Troi is one of Picard's subordinates and follows his orders, or is supposed to. Guinan, a civilian outside the chain of command, is under fewer limitations and can speak more freely. To quote "The Cage," the first pilot episode version of TOS, "sometimes a man will tell his bartender things he won't tell his doctor."
...
I think you did a *GREAT* job with your analysis in the last 7-8 minutes of the overview, by the way. Really spot-on in looking at the Doylist explanation of what went wrong with Troi's characterization as opposed to Guinan's, as opposed to getting bogged down in the Watsonian explanations.
That last bit is the part that had me 'Like' the video.
A warship has a great use of a counselor to help all those PTSD'ed Starfleet soldiers.
That also reminds me of Galaxy Quest and how Gwen DeMarco (played by Sigourney Weaver) had no other job than to repeat what the computer said and stepped out of that role. Really a meta narrative on how Troi could've just stepped up herself to take more action.
While Guinan has the ability to sense alternate timelines she seems to not be able to sense time loops for there was the one episodes when the Enterprise was stuck in a Time loop that ended with it colliding with the USS Bozeman and exploded, Guinan never came forth saying "Hey we are in a time loop" Bit strange for a species that lives on the edge of linear time...
Yesterday’s Enterprise: When Star fleet use the excuse of the Enterprise now being a military ship to suggest the bartender performs a more vital function than you. That’s some grade A passive-aggression 😂
Hey, I was a soldier on deployment. The bartender is one of the most important guys a military base has!
I suggest reading the ST TOS novel "Vulcan's Heart," by Josepha Sherman and Susan Schwartz, where the Enterprise-C had to defend a Klingon Planet Narendra III from being attacked and destroyed by the Romulans. That story really had Enterprise-C performing a military function than diplomatic or exploration.
It's not just that Guinan would be better as ships councillor. But Troi would also be a better bartender. "I feel.....you've had enough." Also Guinan is a timelord. I also agree Barclay is a difficult case. Based on my own anxiety being very similar in terms of severity.
Time Lady. Some can afford the upgrade ;)
@@nudegamer6496 No just for those of us that don't get sarcasm... a Time Lord/Lady from Doctor Who :) ...
I really hope Guinan comes back for the new Picard Trek show.
Nate-O I think I read that she is
That would be awesome!!!
I wanna see that scene that's been talked about...Where Picard walks in, sits down, he and Guinan exchange looks, then more looks, then Picard gets up and says, "Thanks, good talk."
totally!
She definitely brings a different View
Hey, Counselor Troi isn't THAT BAD at her job! Remember in The Mind's Eye when she holds a conference with Geordi and uses cognitive behavior therapy to get him to realize he's been brainwashed by the Romulans? And when the Geordi comes to terms with this fact, she promises to pursue further counseling but admits it will be a long and arduous process?
That's a scene that happens... once in the entire show. Alright, maybe you are right, but it's still the best scene involving Troi!
She forced Picard to take the needed holiday by bluffing that her mother comes by. She has some good scenes as counceler. In the episode with the dark memories of her mother she was not bad either.
I wish I liked Deanna Troi as much as I liked Marina Sirtis.
Without having watched this, I agree. I like Troi, but Guinan is amazing.
There is one thing that Deanna did that no other character could have possibly done, and that be the conduit through which we introduce Lwaxana Troi, in my opinion the best comedic character the series had to offer
Heh, I dislike LWaxana more than Piccard does.
@@jasonm2091 Do not diss the Mother of Star Trek, the first female 1st officer, Dr. McCoy's nurse and the Main Computer.
@@readermike8355 I have the deepest respect for the *actress* (Mother of Star Trek indeed) but the *character* is possibly the most cringeworthy in all of Trek.
You speak the true true
@@jasonm2091 HISSSS! Lwaxana is a rare find in Hollywood. She's a female character with the all consuming on screen presence of *Zachary Quinto in drag* (Zachary as Noah Fence, not Zachary as Spock :P) How many other women can say that? Bette Midler? Cher, maybe? No. Don't diss the lady. Them's fightin words >:T
I love your attitude. The way you include things at the beginning and end about not being a jerk is something I really greatly appreciate, and I would love to see more of that kind of attitude online!
I understand and agree with a lot of your points. I really loved seeing Guinan as a character.
I also wanted to share my perspective on Troy as it relates to my particular personality. As someone who grew up with undiagnosed Asperger's syndrome (which has since been diagnosed by an _actual_ counselor), I think Lt. Cmndr. Data was my favorite character because I found him so relatable, and, in fact, Counselor Deanna Troy's often "useless" insights were less useless to me, personally. I have lower than average social intelligence, so reading people is often more difficult for me than for a normal human being. Having someone like Troy around to explicitly state to me how other people are feeling, being able to fill in those gaps in my interpersonal abilities _would_ actually feel like a bit of a super-power to me.
I can imagine it now:
"He's being sarcastic; he's not actually grateful for your contributions."
"She actually wants you to leave; she's just trying to be polite about it."
"He's impatient and stressed. You should leave him alone for a while."
Such insights could certainly have saved me a lot of trouble in the past! :)
I love this comment - I'm autistic and Troi and Data are two of my all-time favorite characters. I love that their positions - the "emotionless" android who often needs social cues explained to him, and the empathic psychologist who frequently verbalizes and explains those cues - are complimentary and lead to moments of bonding between the two. I think they're two of the best autistic-coded characters on Trek for sure.
One of the best Troi moments came from ST: First Contact:
Troi: "It's a primitive culture... I'm just trying to blend in."
Riker: "You're blended all right..."
one tequila, two tequila , three tequila, floor .... *thump*
I get the impression Marina was not really acting there. Did someone spike her prop glass with real alcohol?
I never understand all the Guinan hate, either. Great character.
Guinan was absolutely one of the most wonderful characters of the Next Generation and that is saying something. But next to Guinan, Troy is bland. She has al those empathic powers that either are not used or when they were used, didn't give us anything we didn't already know. And it's down to the writing. Both actresses are amazing and did the best with what they had.
People hate Guinan?
That can't be possible
I'm guessing racists and misogynists hated Guinan because she was / is a great, powerful, correct woman of colour.
I figured it was because in the eyes of some, she was more of a comedian who mostly did more comedic roles and no one expected her to be able to act outside of that genre.
@@Astrostevo People hate Guinan for the same reason they
hare Michael in Discovery: People refuse to believe that people of color can be leaders or successful at their jobs. It's a terrible trope, but if you look at television characters, especially those written before 2000, they are just poor stereotypes of what whites want people to believe minorities and women are! It's a way to maintain one's superiority. That said, change has come about and these issues are starting to disappear on TV and film.
"Troi doesn't do any actual harm" I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one Steve...specifically the whole telling Data "sometimes it's healthy to explore murder" thing.
I'm actually going to go a step further with the rib that the bartender is a better Troi than Troi, by saying Quark should have Troi's job. His advice, at least, never caused the entire crew to get captured by the Borg.
Neelix was a better counselor than Troi, and that wasn't even his only job lmao
@@lazerbeam134 You sure? Anytime Neelix is confronted with a real life situation that was from his lies he nervously sinks faster than any WW2 ship in the Pacific, thus the nickname "Nervous-Neelix".
and dont forget the multiple occasions (ok, 2 but still) where she decided the best way for a child to deal with their parents dying is to be left alone in their quarters!
Best counseling Quark ever did was when he lectured a Vulcan on the finer points of logic. And won that argument.
@@thevirtualjim Weirdly lots of kids got left in their quarters. But didn't they have a school, nursery, etc? I mean there were over 1000 people on that ship. It had a music academy, art studio, all kinds of shit, yet kids just got dumped in the quarters.
I started respecting Troi much more after Capt Jellico ordered her to put on a damned uniform.
Cyber Zombies... that´s a reeeeally good way to describe the Borg from "Q Who"... if they went that way instead of having a Queen the Borg would continue as scary as the two first time they appeard
The Borg were terrifying AF through the early TNG seasons. They became more of just "badass adversary" over time though. I think our homeboy here did a video on that very topic not too long ago. :)
I always wished that Guinan had her own spinoff show.
The adventures of Guinan through time, with all the years between her encounter with the Borg and the time she met Picard.
I remember that one episode where Troi needed to leave for whatever reason, and Guinan asked if she could have the ship's counselor job, and in my head I was immediately like, "Yes! Please!"
I'm one of those fans who likes Counselor Troi but still recognized instinctively that Guinan's better at her job. :P
I was always curious about the relationship between Picard and Guinan. From time to time, there were hints that there was something more than just a friendship.
I think one of the few scenes where Troi does a rather good job at counseling Picard is in "The Ensigns of Command" when she talks about the teacup. That is one of my most favorite scenes with Troi.
4:45 that pose Guinan does. I’ve always wondered what she could have done to Q if he had his powers in that episode. Should she still have posed threateningly like lightening can shoot out if her fingers? Hmmm
Atticus Blake I wondered the same.
In the show, prior to DS9 and the films, El-Aurians (her people) were shown to live for hundreds of years, to possess "insights" into the world and others, and a few other subtle attributes that while not rising to Q-levels of power suggest that they were more than human-level in terms of ability; Q himself referred to her as an "Imp", where she goes, trouble follows, implying an almost demonic kind of creature, i.e. one that might possibly even be able to resist a being such as Q; his reaction certainly is not the playful kind one expects of someone who does not feel he can be harmed, such as when dealing with mere humans. Granted, she was the sole representative at this point, and the first film then implies that it was the Nexus that granted her these abilities, which I feel is one more reason to ignore the films entirely.
Q was responsible for her entire planet being destroyed! As the sole survivor of said planet I would probably throw all caution to the wind and jump into Q’s ass myself! Wouldn’t you!?
@@heathward8826 Yeah, I guess that's why we saw her use her "powers" so much over the course of the show...lol
How can you compare guinan to anyone without mentioning her amazing drip!? Those outfits alone put her above anyone else on the show.
I was so excited in the episode where troi lost her powers and wanted to resign and Guinana was like, "That's cool, I'll be the new counselor then." And was soooo disappointed when Troi got her powers back and remained counselor. What a tease.
I meant Marina Sirtis like 25 years ago and even then she talked about how counselor Troi got the short end of stick when it came to the writers. You're right they never really gave her stuff to do and when they did it was rare. And you're right the next generation was not a perfect show as much as people like to rewrite history these days. One of the biggest gripes I had is whenever a story involved Crusher or Troy it had to have something to do with Romance. They're of course we're a few times that both Troy and Crusher got really good stories like the time Troy woke up and she would have been turned into a Romulan great story. Another great video Steve thanks
I always thought that the Guinan-Troi-narrative follows the classic narrative of bartenders are the better psychologists. However, Troi herself become a commander, operative etc. and is quite good in these roles. They just should made her captain of the Voyager. ;)
This is what I was thinking - always had better life advice from my bartender than any therapist that I ever went to.
Troi, Captain of the USS Voyager... damn. That would have been a hell of a character arc! I'd have watched it.
Troi, the adventures of a superspy.
Also Guinan was played by Whoopie Goldberg! That alone should advance her to bridge crew levels!
except she's not star fleet.
Just found your channel. As someone who's also watched a few cast panels recently too, I'm glad to see some love for Marina the actress; she is so hilariously the antithesis of her character - blunt, forthright and very funny.
As a Trekky and a Christian, looks like there's going to be a lot of food for thought in your content. More power to you also, Steve.
As much as I enjoyed her on Trek, I'll always remember her most as the voice actress for Demona in Gargoyles.
The episode "Timescape", which aired later in the series, had also shown how effective her character can be. Picard suggested Troi accompany the away team to the Romulan ship because she had experience being on one before. When Geordi was attacked and in shock, she quickly determined what was going on with him and took action to prevent him from dying. It really depended on the writer's ability to give her a satisfying and competent role to play in the story. Unfortunately the Troi character was underutilized, a shame since Marina Sirtis is quite a brilliant actor. Great video, Steve, thanks for posting.
1) Clicked on for a fight; stayed for a thoughtful analysis. I actually like the concept of the Troi character and there were a sprinkle of episodes per season in which Troi was really rather brilliant, obvious or no. 2) Speaking of which, sometimes pointing out the obvious is what is EXACTLY what is needed. (ahem, 2016 election, ahem) 3) I have seen Sirtis in other works - including a couple of Golden Globe/Oscar nominated films and tv shows) and holy moly was Sirtis under utilized. She is as skilled as Stewart (yes) and knows how to command a scene.
I thought she was brilliant in Titans and she got to use her own accent.
Maina Sirtis played the role of a Russian scientist leading a mission aboard a sub with two Stargate SG-1 members--Sam Carter and Daniel Jackson in the SG-1 episode "Watergate". She did a great job there. I think I saw her in an NCIS episode as an Israeli Mossad officer. She also did a great job with that role.
The character of Troi, in my opinion, doesn't fit into being a counselor. In "Face of the Enemy " She's seen as a skilled infiltration agent. I always felt her character would have been best served by being head of some kind of Xeno-cultures department. Their never has been a clear map of Federation space so the constant interaction with species outside of the Federation but somehow not absorbed into any larger State like the Ferengi is fine but I would have enjoyed her character more if she filled this kind of role. This way her mother Lwaxana and herself could have had even more contrast, being that her mother was insensitive to most cultures, she could have been seen as being especially sensitive. Perhaps one day, in a different series of Star Trek.
If it wasn't for Gene's insistence that there be NO DRAMA amongst the crew (unless it involves the men talking about Troi's vagina, of course) I can see a far more interesting version of Troi who uses her empathic talents to outright manipulate people who need it done or sway disagreements amongst the crew, you know, someone who could see Worf's wounded pride over his outward insistence they pee on everything to establish dominance, that sort of thing.
Granted, it might be hard to work it into the script, but if you need someone to swoop in and deus ex machina a problem by preying on someone's insecurities and deepest desires, she's your officer! At least she would have been doing something.
She could reapear in star trek discovery as covert operative expert. That would be fun.
Matthew Kangas, that is an interesting idea. It's a pity that the fans have more original ideas than the writers do, especially now.
No kidding, @@All2Meme Why the heck didn't Section 31 recruit her from day one?
Marina Sirtis is not only a fantastic human being but a very good actress, who was used in scenes, just from her very subtle reactions, to help propel a lot of those "look at the badass stuff on the view screen" scenes forward. She also was fantastic in that Barclay episode when she saw her own hologram created by Broccoli, I laughed out loud, and when she was drunk in First Contact, I always enjoyed her performance she just, as you said, didn't get enough opportunities to give them.
There was one episode where there's a kid who loses his parents and then takes to imitating Data, and in that one her advice is still just kind of meaningless and unnecessary, even though it was a psychology issue they were dealing with, they just didn't tell the story through Troi.
I think Troy’s absolute best use as a therapist came at the end of “The Mind’s Eye” when she helps Geordi recover his memories of being brainwashed by the Romulans. It’s a shame the scene is only two minutes long, and we don’t get to see the process of his recovery, of which she was a vital part. The re-set button is pounded and he’s all better by the next episode. Troi is given no credit. Big surprise! She and Dr. Crusher, to a lesser degree, we’re constantly under-utilized thanks to the male-dominated production and writing staffs. At least they began to rectify this issue in DS9 and Voyager.
Steve, while I agree with most of what you've presented here, I would posit that Guinan really doesn't give a fuck about anyone on the ship. She listens wonderfully, but she's too old and jaded to really care. Troi does care, because she IS an empath, she can FEEL with the crew.
Right? Humans must be like mayflies to her. She cares about them the way we care about our pets - we love them and help them, but we know they're going to die _way_ before we do, and we've accepted that about them.
An argument can be made that her non emotional investment works in her favor when giving objective advice.
Disagree because I get the sense that Guinan does care though e.g. in her rel'ship with Picard and with Q.
She always played her cards close!
The role that showed me how good Marina Sirtis is was, funnily enough, "Gargoyles" or ST: TNG the animated series. If the writers on TNG took some cues from Demona for Troi it would've made quite the difference, especially with regards to Deanna's interactions with her mother.
Man, I wish there were more YT commentaries like this. It's just... refreshing. Even when I disagree with your points (not in this case but still) you manage to forward your perspective in a way that's entertaining without becoming overly negative.
16:56 "Guinan was never just hanging around to recite a few lines of token dialogue." Incorrect. Guinan was *always* hanging around to recite a few lines of token dialogue. The character was kept almost completely unknown, which meant that the writers could have her do or say anything and have it appear to be sage advice from the magical negro (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Negro). Guinan was _constantly_ dropping hints and insinuations, and almost never said anything which could be taken at face value or as direct advice. Her relationship with Picard was just one of these 'told not shown' bits of fluff that attempted to provide the character with gravitas but failed because it was so obviously being rammed down the viewers throats instead of being shown in the show so viewers would accept it on their own.
The Deana Troy character on the other hand suffered from the writers attempting to provide context for her abilities which they then failed to maintain across episodes/seasons, making the character a hash of poor backstory topped by poor writing and poor continuity.
I'd like to thank you for this comment. When I learned about that trope, none of the examples I heard were familiar to me. This one is, and I feel like I have a better understanding of the trope because of your comment.
Absolutely love your videos matey.
Totally agree with this video.
I don't see you reference Enterprise as often. Any chance you could do a piece on the Archer series?
I'm one of the heathens who loved that series when it was on... Til the Riker/Troi holographic ending.
I'm over it. Really. Maybe. Erm. Yeah...
Im the same!! Loved enterprise (even loved the opening song) but il never get over that ending.....
repeat after me: that ending never happened.
The ending would have been better if they actually showed Archer's speech. Show us the forming of the alliance to bring more closure to Enterprise itself. Then maybe pan/zoom out to show Riker and Troi.
The TNG link is good because it indicates how much of an impact Archer's speech had on society for generations to come since the First Officer and Ship's Counselor of the Flagship of the Federation took time out of their day to watch it before leaving to have an important/difficult discussion with the Captain.
I like Troi, AND I agree with you :) If I were to improve her character, I would get her off the bridge and let her solve problems elsewhere on the ship, for the rest of the crew - like the counsillor she's supposed to be (like in season 4, episode 22 "imaginary friend").
Or, if she were to have a presense on the bridge, make it an official role (not councillor, but some other title), and give her stronger empatic or maybe telepatic abilites, so she could help more with diplomacy and first contact.
Guinan rocks every scene she's in. I like her as the mysterious character who doesn't have any leadership role, but are still probably the wisest one on the ship. I love how she kind of undermines the whole show. It's like every scene with her is close to breaking the forth wall (but Whoopi Goldberg does that a lot).
Cultural relations expert? Advising the captain on customs or practices of different races that the universal translator wouldn't be able to cover. Like "No, this is a good sign. If the Zenythri cut off transmission after a declarative statement it's a sign that they respect your position." Or "Wait! Tell Worf not to raise shields. Minbari cruisers run with their weapons charged as a sign of respect. Scans will show they have *not* targeted us."
@@DarkExcalibur42 A Trek / B5 crossover would be really interesting - and imagine Deanna reading Lyta Alexander or Bester's mind and vice-versa! Also wonder how Picard would handle the Vorlons and Shadows.
@@Astrostevo so would that be interdimensional travel, and how would that affect the b5 universe where the only alternate dimension they had accessed was a rather nasty one that then invaded their universe.
I wish the writers explained Guinan better. Especially her relationship with Q. Guinan is hundreds of years old. She was on Earth in 1893. In 2293 was returning from the Delta Quadrant again. A journey that takes several decades at maximum warp unless her species uses technology like the Borg... some kind of transwarp conduits as I recall. Since the Borg doesn't develop technology, they assimilate it, her species might have been the race that invented it. Was she really an El Aurian or something similar to a Q posing as one. Or is there more than meets the eye about all El Aurians, not just her.
Guinan was one of the casualties of the Generations film: it turned El-Aurians from a long-lived race that had much more about them than meets the eye, to an average race with their Star Trek standard one unique ability, and Guinan getting more due to her exposure to the Nexus.
Something that just occurred to me, posited in part by another commenter, is what if Guinan's ability to sense a change in reality goes far beyond that, and maybe that's why Q is afraid of her? What if Guinan (and her species, in general) was always meant to be kind of anchor or constant in the universe and may be resistant to Q powers, the one being or race of beings in the universe that the Q can't manipulate with the snap of a finger?
Deanna was also helpless in "Disaster." You know that episode where Troi is stuck on the bridge with Ro, O'Brien, and some unnamed officer that never shows up again. She asks for advice on how to handle the crisis around ever other turn. The episode where Picard gets stuck in the turbolift with a few kids, and ends up being demoted to an able crewman.
Doesn't she do the Command Officer's exam at one point? I mean that would only entitle her to take over as bridge commander in the absence of Picard, Cmdr Riker, Lt. Cmdr. Data in that order....but I'd have thought even Lt. Worf and Lt. Cmdr La Forge would outrank Deanna.
Marina Sirtis IS awesome - she voices of my favorite villains ever, Demona! Because Gargoyles was basically TNG season 9, for fuck's sake.
She also does a really good job as queen bee on Young Justice. Her voice has a certain gravitas to it that is ideal for villains
Many of the TNG bridge crew voiced characters in GARGOYLES.
My biggest gripe about her is that her empath ability is way OP. She can sense things across vast distances.
You do make some good points. I always felt Troi could have been written a little better. The way i see it is Guinan had centuries of experience on her side, but was not a Starfleet officer. Troi on the other hand was a Starfleet officer and had operate within the confines of Starfleet protocol. One thing Troi said to Guinan about taking over her job was, it's one thing to listen to people. The hard part is getting them to open up about the things they don't want to talk about. Because that is how to are truly able to help someone.
I know its super specific but I feel like some of those newer ships (The Enterprise D and later in particular) SHOULD have 2 counselors, a general counselor and a trauma/grief counselor. And I think Guinan absolutely makes the better day to day source of guidance and moral compass because of the points you brought up, and Troi would obviously be a very effective sort of psedo-psycological surgeon when someone deals with some sort of crazy alien brainwave crap as well as an effective trauma counselor.
the actress does prove herself as great in Gargoyles at least, Demona is one of my favorite characters in any media and her voice fits wonderfully.
Guinan is the mom we all wish we had.
Really love this deconstruction. It's not something I'd really thought about before, but I generally agree. I will say I think the two episodes with the best part for Troi are the one where she's taking the bridge officer's exam and the one where the ship is hit by a superstring and with communications and turbolifts out she has to assume command on the bridge. If I remember correctly, the latter episode was what inspired her to take the bridge officer's exam in the first place.
To point out that Guinan did in specific situations did give Picard better tactical information than Deanna.
But Deanna was the ship's counselor and during episodes that Deanna is included negotiators etc.
However, Deanna Troy was not the ship's Tactical Officer.
Natasha Yar and then Worf held those positions.
Disagree. But I think they should’ve explored Guinan’s character more since it looks like in one of the TNG episodes Q had a fear of her.
That always struck me to. Q and Guinan's culture seemed to come to some sort of stalemate. Q has no fear of the Borg while Guiman's people could be conquered. Maybe not defeated but as least scattered.
My headcanon for why Q hates Guinan's people is just that Q doesn't like being observed except in the ways that he chooses to be observed. His very first appearance has him assuming all sorts of forms just as a joke to taunt humanity and call us gullible. But Guinan? She had some sensory aptitude that went beyond the usual. This implies she could sense or see Q even when he didn't want to be sensed or seen. Then, just picture Q as a cat being disagreeable. And we have exactly why he acts the way he does toward her.
Supposedly the Nexus is the source of many of her abilities, but that may not count for all of them...
@@loudnoise4690 I had thought that the Q created the borg to take out guinans people.
@@zonmoy that's actually plausible I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fanfic out there somewhere that uses that as a plotline.
Always thought Trois was borderline useless. It's not like she could read minds. She basically had the powers of a good poker player.
D: Kirk was an EMPATH! Or at least as good of one as Troi most of the time.
@@DarkExcalibur42 Kirk was a male equivalent of a succubus really though! With alien species and all. There was an actual empath in one of the Original Series eps toowasn't there?
You're absolutely right that the writer's room never knew what to do with her. And it's a shame, because Marina Sirtis had more than her fair share of talent (as anyone who watched her play a major villain on Gargoyles for years can attest). She was woefully underutilized.
The toughest episodes for Deanna are when her mother is on board.
Episodes where Guinan is Not around.
To be fair Guinan could do every character's job better than them. Guinan is literally Whoopi's self insert fan character and that is why we love her.
The Federation didn't have the latinum for Guinan to be a recurring character
Seriously, amazingly thorough and well sourced analysis . Very intellectually stimulating; thanks
Thoroughly appreciated this.Thank you very much.
I very much agreed on the whole "show, don't tell" thing that tended to happen a lot with Troi, but I will have to disagree on something else too. I don't believe Troi and Guinan are meant to fill the same role. Let's look at it from an in-universe viewpoint :
Guinan is that impatient-for-your-bullshit, brutally honest friend you need when you might be deluding yourself. Her subjective viewpoint is the counterpoint you need to get the big picture. She's the intervention, the confrontation. Great in a crisis that needs a quick and clean resolution. She counsels only on occasion, when she personally feels she should, for her own reasons, but that comes with a very specific caveat : you have to have caught her eye for some reason. If Guinan doesnt like you as a person, you can't go to her for treatment because she's under no obligation to help you.
Troi is more patient as a therapist and tends to do her work on a longer time scale. She's more likely to create lasting results and improvements in the lives of the people under her care. She also shows a healthy degree of professional detachment, but she won't refuse to work with a difficult patient either. Her methods are different. Her patient follow-ups happen not on a whim but as a matter of course. Despite initial difficulties, she successfully gets Barclay to gradually come out of his shell and start socializing more and trusting in the his expertise and self-worth. She helps Worf in developing some measure of parenting skill. In the later seasons, she is faced with the hardest case of her life : her own mom who has retreated into a mental prison of her own making. Not only does she have to set aside her own fears in doing so, she also has to break through the barriers of one of the galaxy's strongest telepathic minds.
In summary, I believe they each offer a different product. Guinan makes you face the uncomfortable truth. Troi offers confidentiality and trust and helps you build a lasting toolset. Both are needed.
I honestly think Discovery actually provides an interesting blueprint for how a character like Troi could have been better utilized. Despite how much TNG tried to incorporate her skill set into stories, the fact is that as a ship's counselor she doesn't quite fit in with the command crew in terms of having an essential function to fulfill in every story. But what Discovery does differently, at least in season 1, is that most of the main cast are the cardinal officers you'd see populating the main cast list in any of its sister series. Apart from the Captain and XO Discover explicitly tends to ignore the typical key command characters that people other Treks in favor of framing narratives from characters outside the main command structure, allowing for narratives you usually don't see the leads of a Trek series handling. Culber was just *a* doctor, not the CMO, Tilly was a highly awkward cadet when we first met her, and Burnham had no place in the crew at all at first and was only there for consulting on theoretical science. So a lot more stories were crafted around their more non-traditional Trek roles as opposed to what the bridge crew were doing. In a narrative environment like that, stories that implement her skills could be crafted out of purpose instead of the necessity of giving a front-credited actress lines every week.
Actually that's very true. Good insight.
It’s right though, I was a bartender for years and I knew everything from who was having affairs to who was suicidal to who hated their kids. People tell their bartender things they wouldn’t dream of telling anyone else.
Spot on! Absolutely excellent! Kudos and claps all the way to the bank. You said it better than I ever could.
Also, Troi is the character they should have moved over to DS9 instead of Worf. There's a crew that could have used a psychiatrist!
And they got one! Ezri Dax.
They had one, Quark.
@@jonsnor4313 one that his advice was too driven by insane greed of his society. capitalists showing their true ugly faces at best. and that is just the average ferengi personalities and not their looks.
I'm of the opinion that bringing Michael Dorn to DS9 was mostly fan service, rather than story telling. They brought over a popular character from TNG to get more TNG fans to watch DS9.
Mind you, they did go to great lengths to justify his integration (started a Klingon Federation war to justify his arrival), integrate him (romance) and keep him integral, but it was likely a move similar to bringing in Jeri Ryan to STV; a business decision.
@@p.bamygdala2139 Actually I'm not certain how true this is but it makes sense, from what I heard Michael Dorn's contract hadn't ran out, so that's mostly why they shifted him to DS9... Wasn't into him + Jadzia, I always preferred Julian with Jadzia...
So hit the bricks. Your great Steve.
Also totally agree.
To the Q thing, I always got the impression that Q was in some way afraid of Guinan, which just elevates her badassitude.
As a side note, me and my brother have a running gag we play when watching TNG, whenever Troi comments on something obvious as heck, we always follow it by saying "Thank you, Betazed!" in an aggravated voice.
Troi's mom episodes are surprisingly entertaining though.
Thank you for that last dig at Logan. I think I could forgive Nemesis of a lot of its flaws and watch it as a fun yet Bad Star Trek Movie (Like V), except for that Troi scene. There are a lot of reasons that Nemesis is Bad but that scene is why I barely ever watch it. It's so off putting and I feel bad for the actors involved. Baird and Logan can *@CK all the way off for that scene.
Glad you appreciated that. When you're stuck for an ending to a Star Trek video, a cheap shot at John Logan is always a viable option.
Yeah, no, I can't watch "that scene" either, but just a tiny (really really infinitesimal ) defense of Nemesis. 2 copies of people, Data and his double and Picard and his was a nice theme. AND I always point out that I thought way more of the film when I realized that Picard is Shinzon's nemesis, not the other way around.
Always remember the episode (The Cage) The doctor comes to Captain Pikes quarters with drinks and tells the Captain that people will ofton tell there bar tender things that they will never tell there doctor making Guenen the go to
That's where Guinan comes from.
I assumed the reason Troi wasn't in _Yesterday's Enterprise_ was because Betazed wasn't part of the Federation in that timeline, presumably because humans are too warlike for Betazoid tastes.
And my wife wanted me to mention that in _The Loss_ Troi explains that Guinan gets people to reveal the things they _want_ to reveal, where as Troi has to get them to share the things they _don't_ want to reveal. Also, that even counselors need counselors sometimes. But she liked the rest of the video as much as I did.
Wow, I didn't remember that. I always skip that episode when I consider re-watching TNG. Maybe I need to go back. Sounds like an interesting exchange.
So true, every time Guinan was on screen it was important.
Troi wasn't the best ship's counselor. She wasn't a strong Bridge Officer. She was able to keep her cool in most situations outside of her personal life. She had a broken relationship with her mother. Her romantic relationships were often short lived, possible due to her taste in men having her pursue a man who sucked the youth out of her, a different man who was to sabotage a scientific find deemed impossible to exist, and the accidental clone of her ex-but-current-superior-officer-and-best-friend-who-she-seemed-to-be-having-a-friends-with-benefits-situation-with-throughout-the-entire-series-until-she-finally-started-a-relationship-with-Worf-until-she-eventually-married-him.
Deanna Troi made bad decisions on occasion, crashed the ship twice, and had a weakness for food. Compare that to Wesley Crusher, the Boy Wonder who was so smart he could travel by sheer will(heh)power; Beverly Crusher, who became head of Starfleet Medical; Data, capable of performing feats living creatures could only dream of; and, of course, Captain Picard himself, the confidant, charismatic, righteous man with the mental fortitude to handle torture, living an entire life in a matter of minutes,rarely (ever?) making a wrong decision, and only accepting the best of the best on board his ship. She doesn't fit with that. She's too normal.
And THAT is why Deanna Troi is awesome.
you're right she helps the common human with failures relate to what life might be like with Boy Wonder, Guinan, the wise ancient moral counselor, Crusher the super intelligent doctor and all the other geniuses. but weird things happen to Dr. Crusher that make her seem human like possession and falling in love with Capt. Picard when under the influence of some planet/drug? This seems like a bad interpretation of healthy relationships for women by Hollywood. She's very alone. Never seems to get a healthy romantic relationship with anyone. Some people do that though, focus on their career and raising their kids for 18 years while being celibate instead of allowing time for a normal healthy romantic relationship to develop. Or be celibate and romantic and get married. She's just completely celibate. I'm celibate too but that doesn't stop me from having romantic feelings and considering the idea of marriage to someone (as I take care of myself and others and do my career). But people seem to think if you're celibate that's all you do 100% of the time and you don't have feelings or something. No romance plot or feelings are allowed, unless it leads to marriage or sex. But if you are the one living that way, you can't know if your feelings are going to lead to marriage or not. It's still ok to have the feelings. Feelings are valid and don't always need to lead to the expected outcomes of marriage or sex. Which is why you have to actually talk to the person openly that you have romantic feelings for. See what they think. Find out if they have similar feelings and what they think about your friendship or celibacy and marriage and so on. A discussion like this also doesn't have to lead to rejection of the person or the friendship. If the guy she has feelings for says "I do not feel the same romantic feelings as you do" then he can explain what things he does value in the friendship and take it as a way to solidify the friendship. I wish they could have done more of that with her. Shown her building close friendship with crew members (some of which she had unrequited love for but had to recalibrate to be good friends with). Sometimes its nice to have friends :) and not be so alone.
Exactly! Empath powers aside she's awesome because she's a normal relatable person- she shows us what an ordinary person would be like among all these geniuses and ace people.
Guinan is operating from experience, whereas Troi is using intuition. Experience is a valuable guide, but limited to your own experience. Of course Guinan knows about the Borg, they destroyed her people.
I'd rather have Troi's abilities for an exploratory mission than relying on Guinan's experience. It's also obvious there is room for both on a ship. Guinan is useful in some situations, but Troi is always handy.
Besides, it's not fair for any actor to go up against Whoopi Goldberg.
In "Yesterday's Enterprise" - Guinan's intiution kicked in because she couldn't outright tell Picard WHY the future "didn't seem right" and that Tasha shouldn't be alive etc etc. And she spoke in riddles, again, without an actual explanation to Picard - "if you don't go back, we'll never meet".... when the crew goes back to find out why Data's remains were buried and they end up in old San Fransisco and run into Mark Twain.
I find your review of Troi spot on. My wife's nickname for Troi was "useless." And the lack of the regular uniform drove me crazy -- too informal like she was hanging out on the bridge as opposed to being an officer. Like in the TNG episode Disaster the other characters, at least to me, seemed to be surprised she was even a Lt. Cmdr. I feel they were trying to make a Decker/Ilya romance.
You pretty much nailed it. The writers didn't bother to learn anything about actual psychological counseling techniques, which is pretty common in fiction, so Troi ends up doing things that even an average person would think was bad counseling, especially since she's an empath. Guinan was only there when she needed to be and maybe writers hang out in bars. To paraphrase Vonda McIntire, when she was at a sci i con, what's the point of even creating a character like Troi as a regular if, every time she could be relevant, she's not there or unable to deduce the things she should be able to deduce?
Whoopi Goldberg's wardrobe gives me life through out this entire series. Although I love Marina Sirtis, I have always felt that Troi was used as just a sex toy to keep mysoginistic fan boys watching because as pointed out in the Jellico video, she's the only female member of the crew running around in tight dresses showing off cleavage.
'Discovery is SJW garbage. TNG never had that!!' 'No, it had a Counsellor. On the Bridge. Next to the Captain'. '...'
Much like how some folk complain about how the new Star Wars films villains are all fascist, white men as clear evidence of an SJW agenda. If folk are just realizing that the heroes in Star Wars have always been antifa... well, perhaps they need to talk to Guinan for help clarify their perspective.
All the villains in Star Wars are white supremacists? I don't know what you are talking about. It's as if they were based on some sort of real life white supremacist organisation from history... I think they were the Nazi party.
Well, at least Imperials were COMPETENT fascists, with more of a dangerous aura to them...
@@oliverewarthopkins7818
I know right? It's as if the Palpatine's Human Supremacy and anti-democratic policies for making the Republic more secure by turning it into a militarized, fascist
Empire was not inspired by a real example from history.
You mean the series that started with a black woman and a Russian on the bridge on 60's US television? The series with the first ever televised interracial kiss? That series was never "SJW"?
Steve, you are SO good at this (research, analysis, criticism, humor, INSIGHT, perception, writing, editing, producing, etc). I just got around to watching this episode and I think it's one of your best. Great job, friend!
Great video. I loved the Guinan character. There was one episode that stands out in my mind that you didn't mention. Do you remember the episode "Ensign Ro"? She was really good in that one. It was always funny to me how she kind of imposed her wisdom on people, Picard and Ro in this case. They tried to resist but they couldn't, lol...
Hit the bricks...that was funny.
does that mean he want them to slam into a brick wall?
Also she isn't just the magical bartender archetype but she is also for lack of better words the "magical negro" archetype in some ways. I hate that term but it is some what true :/
Dustin Gibbons - I have to agree about the magical negro part. I think it’s the fact that she is a bartender that puts her into that category. She has incredible insight into situations in which she will never really play a part. She not a part of the story on her own.
As a life long bartender I'll suggest that keeping your best councilor behind the bar could be a solid tactical decision
This video is a good example of why UA-cam should add an option to block specific users/channels from appearing on our Recommended list. One minute and thirty seconds into this video, I had has seen more of this channel than I ever care again to see again.
Troi was always annoying and undeveloped until season 7, but the actress is amazing and such a laugh. Also Guinan was a far better listener and had actual solutions to problems.
I not even watched it and I´m already giving a like... only stating it is a truth
I like how you are giving advice about people should be civil to each other.
Great video as always! Thanks!