@@Chrisclockrepair Please upload a video that shows the working of gear train of balance wheel driven clock with centre second (thin and long second hand pivoted co-auxial with hour and minute hand).
Floating balance wheels are factory set. The main problem with these "fast" movements are friction or a weak spring. The movements have to be stripped completely and the plates and gears have to be cleaned properly. If you do not have a sonic cleaner, you can clean the plates with a brush and clock cleaning solvents. Make sure to clean the pivot holes with pith wood. (tooth pics work well). Then inspect plates and pinions and check for wear. I often find Hermle spring drums with excessive wear on the arbor, drum side and/or drum plate. The main spring have to be removed, cleaned and lubricated. Check if there is float on the balance wheel. If the jeweled shaft is rubbing on the cradle bottom, it will cause friction and you will have less swing, which will speed it up. You need approximately 270 degrees swing from left to right. You can fine tune the speed with the setting tab on the top of the wheel. The BPM on these are 150.00 beats per minute.
I agree. Its factory set this balance and able to be regulated well when the movement is in ok shape. . The amplitude is mutch too little here-it can almost only release the escape wheel. So short arc in turning-then too fast speed of the clock. Too less power here from the movement, wrong distance between fork and balanceshaft maybe, or wrong distance in the fork arms or wrong ajustment of the forks locking arm at the balance shaft-it can cause friction.
It looks like there are other issues with the movement, as I see the amplitude of the swing is way to short. They should rotate about 270 degrees at least
Robert is right, it appears there is not enough power through the wheel train, Impacted dirt on a pivot or two , worn bushing holes and/or weak mainspring. The short swing is allowing the escape wheel to rotate faster than a longer balance wheel rotation.
Can someone give me advice on reinstalling the balance mechanism how does it engage with the forks and is there a special step I need to make sure to take. I bought a replacement the old one the wire broke.
Excellent explanation. Very informative for an amateur like me. My clock has a problem that stops the wind/unwind action of the balance wheel after about 5-25 oscillations. I understand about friction and where it may be but complete disassembly, cleaning, etc. is more that I can do without anxiety or discomfort. I'll buy new movement instead. But before I purchase new, I'd like to gamble on selecting a suspect bearing and adding a fraction of an oil drop to see if I'm lucky. I have a nice syringe oil applicator that I can control well. Any guess where to try, I'm thinking there must be a lower bearing on the balance wheel shaft that gravity might have worn some. Any other obvious places? Do you know of a sketch or diagram of the entire balance wheel train? Thanx
I was hoping you would show how the balance wheel was re-mounted. I'm a retired mechanical engineer who inherited a non-working clock with a 340-020 movement that I'm trying to get working. Must that balance wheel be preloaded prior to mounting? Would you be willing to share any tips for mounting that assembly? Thank you.
Hi Chris, thanks for the great video. I too have a similar problem, although mine runs extremely fast. Mine is cheaper movement doesn't have space for adding weights, I even changed the hairspring to a longer one, 2 extra coils and still super fast. I am thinking to glue some weights to the balance wheel. I got the movement used, clearly someone messed with it. Pondering if the mainspring is too strong. Any suggestions? Thank you, Daniel.
Your problem is likely not with the weights. Either your balance is dirty and needs to be cleaned (soak in naptha and the dry it with a hair dryer) and/or you are losing power in your train and need to address some bushing and/or pivot work.
Thanks Chris, I have a floating balance movement that I installed into a Manuel casing and it is running slow about 3 ish min a day. I am familiar with watch movements so this video shows me how to correct the beat !! Awesome
I inherited a 1930's Elgin clock with this exact movement. It was loosing about 8 minutes/day. I speeded it up as far as it turns and now only looses 5 min/day. I will try removing 2 weights and see if that helps.
The fast and slow adjustment on the balance wheel does not affect the spring, it moves weight on an eccentric device similar to how a spinning ballerina pulls her arms in to spin faster. Also, it’s far easier it add weight by inserting taper pins , cutting them with wire cutters and finishing with a small grinding wheel.
Good point- where would one get tapered pins from? Or could you just use a dremel and grind the weight into a taper? I'm a newbie into this hobby and any info you may kindly offer I'd appreciate. Thanks.
@@Chrisclockrepair hey dude just want to say thank you for replying I got movement going I had to take the hole thing apart there were places it was a bill up with old oil. I don’t know how old clock is it was given to my grandfather when he retired in 1985. They are working I need to adjust time properly. Have awesome day
Chris, just picked up an elgin clock movement w/ a conical regulator from an estate of a 93yoa clock repair hobbyist. Can I make that adjustment while in the case? Also, over the chime barrel is a metal arm. What is the purpose of that? There is a silent/chime knob.in back, and this metal piece is blocking it
You shouldn’t have to make this adjustment. That metal lever is for holding down the chime rods or hammers during travel. There should be a way to move them out of the way
You will never get anywhere with the timeing unless that balance wheel has 360 or more degrees motion. As this example ran you clearly have less than 180 degrees motion. Once that is achieved you try to time the clock with its existing weights and settings. Poor motion is possibly due to somebbody oiling, or cleaning, or disturbing the fork position or lack of power reaching the fork.
You can move the balance wheel slightly to the left or the right depending on which way you need to go by moving the fork that the crutch moves between. Does that make sense? Sometimes the position of the crutch can be too far away or too close to the pin on the balance not allowing the correct amount of swing.
I did see that despite being wound the balance rotation is well down. This is either the balance itself, or the train is not delivering power. Perhaps both. You should dismantle, clean, peg and polish the pivots. Use only lighter fuel for the balance itself. Make sure the mainspring is also cleaned which can be lightly greased or oiled in the barrel. Oil its pivots but apply no other oil. Make sure there are no excessively worn pivots. Bush any that are. Put the balance into a vice and spin it to rotate a full +/- 180 deg and check it is still running well after 2 to 3 minutes. DO NOT OIL it! The depth of the lever into the impulse roller is critical and there are often end-float springs to make sure it remains accurate. Check these are doing their job. Reassemble and before rating make sure the rotation is at least 275 deg. (3/4 turn). If it is recheck the rating . If the balance is still short cycling, and you feel extra weight is required on the balance ask why that could possibly be? What on earth has happened to alter its natural factory set resonance? Has a weight or two been removed? I'd use some Rodico to add temporary weight if that was the case and re-check it. Grip the balance in a soft yawed vise to hold it safely. Faults with the balance beyond cleaning can be ridge wear on the wire. A 0.007" silver steel guitar string works well as a replacement. These balances were a very clever alternative to the pendulum - giving similar accuracy without the delicacy. However the beat still needs to be correct. There's an adjuster at the top where the spring is anchored. Note there are some slight variations to the Hettich design out there to try and get around their patent issues. In particular Smiths & Warmink-Wuba. You can read about these patent wars on-line.
I've found that by pushing in the pallet fork ever so slightly, the speed increases. Pulling it back slightly, slows the clock down. I hardly ever fool with the wheel weights. They are normally set by the factory.
That clock is running too fast, not because it needs adjustment OR added weights (I have never, in, ten years of being in business repairing clocks, added weight) but because the balance wheel is NOT moving far enough. The balance wheel is supposed to turn more than 180 degrees! Your's is only turning about 10 degrees! There are two causes for that; low power and the fork has been bent out of adjustment! The latter is the most likely but the last resort because it is VERY tricky to get it perfect - and perfect it must be! First make sure all the wheels in the time train turn well with minimal power. If you do have to resort to bending the fork, be super careful not to bend anything else and know that it takes VERY LITTLE movement to completely change the action of the wheel. ua-cam.com/video/woLI6cK0yYQ/v-deo.htmlsi=wnGtMgUsbZH1uLBX
Thank you so much for sharing this information. You are VERY clear and understandable.
Thank you!
very clear demo of a tricky subject
does a floating balance wheel need to be oiled? If so where would that be. All your explanations are absolutely terrific! Thank you
No i do not oil them. I clean them in naptha and reinstall them
Thank you very much for your demonstration and explanation!
You're welcome.
@@Chrisclockrepair Please upload a video that shows the working of gear train of balance wheel driven clock with centre second (thin and long second hand pivoted co-auxial with hour and minute hand).
Thank you very much. very imformative and was able to slow down my Telma 1981 mantel clock which iI bought for 50 euros in an auction a few weeks ago.
Nice.
Floating balance wheels are factory set. The main problem with these "fast" movements are friction or a weak spring. The movements have to be stripped completely and the plates and gears have to be cleaned properly. If you do not have a sonic cleaner, you can clean the plates with a brush and clock cleaning solvents. Make sure to clean the pivot holes with pith wood. (tooth pics work well). Then inspect plates and pinions and check for wear. I often find Hermle spring drums with excessive wear on the arbor, drum side and/or drum plate. The main spring have to be removed, cleaned and lubricated. Check if there is float on the balance wheel. If the jeweled shaft is rubbing on the cradle bottom, it will cause friction and you will have less swing, which will speed it up. You need approximately 270 degrees swing from left to right. You can fine tune the speed with the setting tab on the top of the wheel. The BPM on these are 150.00 beats per minute.
I agree. Its factory set this balance and able to be regulated well when the movement is in ok shape. . The amplitude is mutch too little here-it can almost only release the escape wheel. So short arc in turning-then too fast speed of the clock. Too less power here from the movement, wrong distance between fork and balanceshaft maybe, or wrong distance in the fork arms or wrong ajustment of the forks locking arm at the balance shaft-it can cause friction.
So you're just rearranging the weights rather than adding new ones? If you're adding new ones, where can I buy them?
It looks like there are other issues with the movement, as I see the amplitude of the swing is way to short. They should rotate about 270 degrees at least
Robert Olson yes. You are absolutely right.
Robert is right, it appears there is not enough power through the wheel train, Impacted dirt on a pivot or two , worn bushing holes and/or weak mainspring. The short swing is allowing the escape wheel to rotate faster than a longer balance wheel rotation.
Can someone give me advice on reinstalling the balance mechanism how does it engage with the forks and is there a special step I need to make sure to take. I bought a replacement the old one the wire broke.
Excellent explanation. Very informative for an amateur like me. My clock has a problem that stops the wind/unwind action of the balance wheel after about 5-25 oscillations. I understand about friction and where it may be but complete disassembly, cleaning, etc. is more that I can do without anxiety or discomfort. I'll buy new movement instead. But before I purchase new, I'd like to gamble on selecting a suspect bearing and adding a fraction of an oil drop to see if I'm lucky. I have a nice syringe oil applicator that I can control well. Any guess where to try, I'm thinking there must be a lower bearing on the balance wheel shaft that gravity might have worn some. Any other obvious places? Do you know of a sketch or diagram of the entire balance wheel train? Thanx
Great video my clock always loses three minutes and it’s adjusted I’ll try taking a weight off of each side and see what happens
I was hoping you would show how the balance wheel was re-mounted. I'm a retired mechanical engineer who inherited a non-working clock with a 340-020 movement that I'm trying to get working. Must that balance wheel be preloaded prior to mounting? Would you be willing to share any tips for mounting that assembly? Thank you.
Its simply mounted on with two screws. No preload. The power comes from the spring barrel on the time train.
@@Chrisclockrepair Thank you for taking time to reply.
Hi Chris, thanks for the great video. I too have a similar problem, although mine runs extremely fast. Mine is cheaper movement doesn't have space for adding weights, I even changed the hairspring to a longer one, 2 extra coils and still super fast. I am thinking to glue some weights to the balance wheel. I got the movement used, clearly someone messed with it. Pondering if the mainspring is too strong. Any suggestions? Thank you, Daniel.
Your problem is likely not with the weights. Either your balance is dirty and needs to be cleaned (soak in naptha and the dry it with a hair dryer) and/or you are losing power in your train and need to address some bushing and/or pivot work.
Thanks for how to, was running @5min slow. I hopefully will now get caught up. Love the "Don't be a little bitch" wristband
Hahaha Thanks!
Thanks Chris, I have a floating balance movement that I installed into a Manuel casing and it is running slow about 3 ish min a day. I am familiar with watch movements so this video shows me how to correct the beat !! Awesome
Awesome!’m glad to hear it. I appreciate the feedback.
perfect, thank you!
I inherited a 1930's Elgin clock with this exact movement. It was loosing about 8 minutes/day. I speeded it up as far as it turns and now only looses 5 min/day. I will try removing 2 weights and see if that helps.
Before you remove weight's, I would give it a clean and service. A dirty clock will sometimes run fast due to a low amplitude.
gooood work Thanks
The fast and slow adjustment on the balance wheel does not affect the spring, it moves weight on an eccentric device similar to how a spinning ballerina pulls her arms in to spin faster. Also, it’s far easier it add weight by inserting taper pins , cutting them with wire cutters and finishing with a small grinding wheel.
Good point- where would one get tapered pins from? Or could you just use a dremel and grind the weight into a taper? I'm a newbie into this hobby and any info you may kindly offer I'd appreciate. Thanks.
Our movement doesn’t move back and forth what could be a problem?
I need a little more info to be able to help you. Is the clock wound?
@@Chrisclockrepair yes everything is wound up and we clean and oiled everything in right places. Thank you for replying
How old is the clock? Do you know how to check for worn pivot holes?
@@Chrisclockrepair hey dude just want to say thank you for replying I got movement going I had to take the hole thing apart there were places it was a bill up with old oil. I don’t know how old clock is it was given to my grandfather when he retired in 1985. They are working I need to adjust time properly. Have awesome day
@@peterodushkin8434 Great!
Good video- When you reassembled the piece were you successful in setting the time? Basically was your surgery successful?
Chris, just picked up an elgin clock movement w/ a conical regulator from an estate of a 93yoa clock repair hobbyist. Can I make that adjustment while in the case? Also, over the chime barrel is a metal arm. What is the purpose of that? There is a silent/chime knob.in back, and this metal piece is blocking it
You shouldn’t have to make this adjustment. That metal lever is for holding down the chime rods or hammers during travel. There should be a way to move them out of the way
You will never get anywhere with the timeing unless that balance wheel has 360 or more degrees motion. As this example ran you clearly have less than 180 degrees motion.
Once that is achieved you try to time the clock with its existing weights and settings.
Poor motion is possibly due to somebbody oiling, or cleaning, or disturbing the fork position or lack of power reaching the fork.
How do you adjust the 'beat' of the clock with a balance wheel?
You can move the balance wheel slightly to the left or the right depending on which way you need to go by moving the fork that the crutch moves between. Does that make sense? Sometimes the position of the crutch can be too far away or too close to the pin on the balance not allowing the correct amount of swing.
Although this might "work" it's likely a loss of power to the escapement causing it not to rotate far enough in both directions.
I agree with you.
I have more issues with balance wheel clocks than with pendulum drive clocks. Pendulums are a lot easier to time adjust, as well.
I agree with that also.
I did see that despite being wound the balance rotation is well down. This is either the balance itself, or the train is not delivering power. Perhaps both. You should dismantle, clean, peg and polish the pivots. Use only lighter fuel for the balance itself. Make sure the mainspring is also cleaned which can be lightly greased or oiled in the barrel. Oil its pivots but apply no other oil. Make sure there are no excessively worn pivots. Bush any that are. Put the balance into a vice and spin it to rotate a full +/- 180 deg and check it is still running well after 2 to 3 minutes. DO NOT OIL it! The depth of the lever into the impulse roller is critical and there are often end-float springs to make sure it remains accurate. Check these are doing their job. Reassemble and before rating make sure the rotation is at least 275 deg. (3/4 turn). If it is recheck the rating . If the balance is still short cycling, and you feel extra weight is required on the balance ask why that could possibly be? What on earth has happened to alter its natural factory set resonance? Has a weight or two been removed? I'd use some Rodico to add temporary weight if that was the case and re-check it. Grip the balance in a soft yawed vise to hold it safely. Faults with the balance beyond cleaning can be ridge wear on the wire. A 0.007" silver steel guitar string works well as a replacement. These balances were a very clever alternative to the pendulum - giving similar accuracy without the delicacy. However the beat still needs to be correct. There's an adjuster at the top where the spring is anchored. Note there are some slight variations to the Hettich design out there to try and get around their patent issues. In particular Smiths & Warmink-Wuba. You can read about these patent wars on-line.
I've found that by pushing in the pallet fork ever so slightly, the speed increases. Pulling it back slightly, slows the clock down. I hardly ever fool with the wheel weights. They are normally set by the factory.
Agreed. Thats typically the case
Your bracelet band😂😂😂
That clock is running too fast, not because it needs adjustment OR added weights (I have never, in, ten years of being in business repairing clocks, added weight) but because the balance wheel is NOT moving far enough. The balance wheel is supposed to turn more than 180 degrees! Your's is only turning about 10 degrees! There are two causes for that; low power and the fork has been bent out of adjustment! The latter is the most likely but the last resort because it is VERY tricky to get it perfect - and perfect it must be! First make sure all the wheels in the time train turn well with minimal power. If you do have to resort to bending the fork, be super careful not to bend anything else and know that it takes VERY LITTLE movement to completely change the action of the wheel.
ua-cam.com/video/woLI6cK0yYQ/v-deo.htmlsi=wnGtMgUsbZH1uLBX