@@manuelrathjen1195 I'm afraid that aside from the first volume, the Sojourn will not be available on Audible. For all the reasons we listed in that video it just not sustainable. Very sorry about that, but it is available on Google Books and elsewhere. - Dan
@@rrenkrieg7988 i always think of them as the descendants of the Cheyenne dropship from aliens. I love Cameron's hardware designs, and they could totally be from the same universe. "Realistic" scifi is kinda hard to pull off, but he usually nails it.
Yup. It's a good reason why other scifi franchises mimic his style for their aircraft. Halo's Pelicans, Falcons, and Hornets would fit in with this flotilla perfectly, for example.
@@VegetaLF7 So Halo’s pelican drop ship first appeared in Halo CE in (2001) and the Hornet first appeared in Halo 3 (2007). Bungee must have been really ahead of the curve to be inspired by a movie that was released in 2009. 😏
@@williamhare4456 Except the comment I was responding to wasn't talking solely about Avatar. The Hunter-Killers and Cheyenne Dropship came from the Terminator and Aliens films, both of which came out well before Halo. Halo's designs took inspiration from that so much that when James Cameron's Avatar came out with more of his realistic future tech vehicles in it, the James Cameron-inspired Halo vehicles would easily fit in the flotilla seen in the film.
I remember analyzing the Battle for Pandora down to its minuscule of details. I compared their literal sizes of each air/ground unit in contrast to the enemy, how drastically outnumbered the Sec Op Forces were, the disadvantages of being in the electromagnetic vortex and found out that despite ALL of the disadvantages the Sec Op Forces faced, the amount of damage they dealt to the enemy without achieving their primary mission was astoundingly brutal. Colonel Quaritch managed to hold off an assault wave that was 3, if not 4, times the size of his own individual units. Even after nature involved itself in the battle, the Colonel managed to avoid his forces from being completely annihilated by pressing the attack, maintaining the initiative and covering his retreating forces as a distraction with the Dragon. Whether humanity was right or wrong for initiating this conflict, there's a level of respect that is demanded from an enemy with the tenacity and ferocity that Colonel Quaritch brought to the table.
The biggest problem I have with that battle, but I don't see any other way James Cameron could've had the Na'Vi winning, is that the RDA didn't even try to use the higher flight ceiling and VTOL capabilities to their advantage. On Earth, with a sparser atmosphere and greater gravity, helicopters can fly MILES above ground, and it's shown in the movie that they can reach the highest floating mountains with ease. Instead of flying into an obvious ambush in tight space, they could've flown ABOVE the Hallelujah mountains with no issue, gun down any approaching forces at a distance with the now ample open space, prevent the Na'vi to use the diving bow attacks that they knew would use (they used that tactic against the squad defending the excavators, and RDA personnel explain it to the audience), and they then could've slowly lower the Valkyrie above the Tree of Souls for a safe and clear bombing. The only one that could've done any harm to them then would've been Trudy, but it would still be a single aircraft against dozens.
@@CommissarLORDBernn Good points. Not to defend the events that transpired, but I was under the impression that the Hallelujahs were in the way of a direct bombing from above. I do believe the lack of an actual dedicated bomber not being present was another factor since the aircraft being used was improvised. Which meant they had to unload the munitions and payload manually at subsonic speeds. Or at the very least, slower than air-to-ground engagements in modern warfare. Interestingly, I brought up the same point for the Rebel attack on the Death Star. Why would they fly down a heavily defended trench when they could simply fly directly at it from above? 🤷♂️
Yes! I loved the last one, was hoping you'd do these as well. Avatar actually has a fantastic "sci-fi Vietnam" military aesthetic, and I think that goes underappreciated by most.
Wall as close as you get as he natives don't have a more conventional military which alot of people seem to forget also forget how the Vietcong fight what they view as another imperialist invaders the US they weren't so much fighting for communism as fighting to determine their future by themselve
He loves that theme and does it well from both sides. Aliens: "primitive" forces overwhelming a more tech advanced but command inept group of soldiers. (Also avatar lol) T2: outclassed humans (and maguffin helper) defeating a hugely advanced technical force. Titanic: sneaky but well intentioned good guy manages to out woo scion of powerful family. Piranha 2: errrrr.....a bunch of critters that cant breathe air kill a bunch who can? Yeah, kinda reaching there but not that far lol
What I don't get is why the security force was so tightly clustered at a low altitude, going slow. They could have used the drop ship to drop the payload at a higher altitude and speed and then cleaned up with the rotary aircraft. Edit: Or keep the shuttle up high until they find their target and then escort for a short bomb run instead.
I think its for two reasons, in the floaty mountain land sensors are unreliable and its often misty, if you can't really see you have to go slow unless you want to see a mountain real up close. Secondly because they didn't have a dedicated EMP hardened bombing platform. They had to use the shuttle and convert it to drop crates of parachute equipped explosive out the back. If you are just dumping bombs out the back of a transport aircraft you need to fly low and slow, to have any chance at all of hitting the target. Since the Shuttle wasn't designed for war they had to cluster close to protect it. Thirdly they just completely underestimated the enemy, they hadn't really fought a open conflict before.
Don't forget the Banshee from Starcraft II. TvTropes calls them "FutureCopters" - two or more ducted fans instead of a single rotor, very common in sci-fi.
@@TheCoolCucumber I remember from the movies game that it was illegal under a treaty for the RDA to have any weapons of mass destruction, so I guess the RDA was fucked once the Zerg rush started. It also put some limits on it's military power in space.
@@TheCoolCucumber If the sequel doesn't start with an Earth fleet showing up and then either using nukes or asteroids for orbital bombardment of the evil human murdering aliens then it's a garbage film and totally unrealistic to how humans react to being attacked with large casualty numbers cough pearl harbour cough 9/11.
@@TheCoolCucumber Yeah, technically you can stop a swarm with enough firepower, but if humans strength is technology, Zerg/Eywa is numbers. To be able to stop them without using the big guns, you'll need to increase your numbers to level the board. RDA's security forces were a small task force against a whole planet. You can't win that game.
@@moteroargentino7944 Problem is, unobtainium is the spice melange in this universe. A realistic response from the Sky People will be to bring plenty of guns and people to make sure the spice- er, minerals flow. I'd expect nothing less than a military expedition comprising at least 10 Venture Star-like craft to deal with the natives. If unobtainium is as valuable as the worldbuilding says, they will come for it and make sure to secure their supply for Earth.
Sequel would probably just be them hitting the area with several sizable asteroids moving at decent speed and going back to strip mining the place, while being a lot less accommodating to any surviving natives
Yeah, one big asteroid in the right place would trigger a nuclear winter and wipe out 99% of those pesky life forms. Then the RDA sends word back to Earth of a “natural disaster on Pandora” and how they need extra reinforcements to “help” the natives.
@@mattwho81 As long as the natives don't also do the same, with human tech left behind, could they protect themselves using Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine?
@@marc0523 the natives don't have nukes and even if they had, they don't have the transportations they need to travel to earth. Furthermore, humans have much more advanced weapons and they might be better equipped next time they are going to invade the native's planet.
@@holonow4298 I was thinking of them using asteroids on earth, steal a spaceship, and wait somewhere sneaky encase anyone on earth tried to use asteroids.
As an aircraft mechanic, i am *super impressed* with the level of technical details that they thought of here. And/or the level of things that you went into. *Every single word of that* was spoken like things and details that could very well apply to a real aircraft! Like...85-90% probably! Provided we had a dense enough atmosphere to fly them in! XD (Except maybe the electromagnetic armor enhancement of the Dragon. That's impossible afaik) Although i will only point out 1 teeny tiny detail. 1:15 "Dual coaxial Ducted fan rotors" Key part im gonna point out. "Dual coaxial" is accurate. "Ducted rotors" is a perfectly acceptable term. Not "ducted fan rotors." Calling them fans, even though they are ducted, is incorrect. And the reason i point this out is valid, though irrelevant as this is a movie ffs. 😂 When the blades obstruct more than 40-50% of the airspace in the duct, when you see more of the blades than through the blades, it becomes a fan, and not a rotor or propeller. For super nerdy aerodynamic reasons involving turbulence around the blades, it changes how it has to be designed. The angles of the blades, the speed they can rotate at, their lifting power or "traction" if you will, etc. etc. Super thin hair splitter. But we airplane mechanics, like Vulcans, embrace technicality. Technicalities can, and occasionally do, mean the difference between a safe routine flight, and and emergency situation. tip-of-the-tongue example: The famed "Gimli Glider" ran out of fuel due to a technicality error. Loved the video, Spacedock! I seriously enjoy when scifi goes into such specifics and details like this. Really stimulates the neurons!
Anyone who says the word "unobtainium" with a straight face and without breaking into laughter should be awarded all the Oscars, past present and future
It's a real slang term in aviation engineering. It first referred to aluminum and than later titanium and was adopted because of the difficulty in getting those materials during certian eras
Unobtainium and it sibling metals handwavium, impossibrium, raritanium, and hardtofindium are integral to much of science fiction. Star Trek inertial stabilizers are made of Impossibrium. Most FTL engines and force fields run on Handwavium. Wormholes are held open with Unobtainium.
At least it isn't a future-history setting that I've been working on. The moment that the planetside mining facilities got overrun, it's _carpet nuke_ time by forces in orbit. ... with MIRVs hauling multiple multi-hundred megaton pure-fusion warheads.
nukes would likely be the one thing they wouldnt drop: remember they want to mine here, and turning the surface in an irradiated wasteland would make that WAY harder. Railstrikes from orbit are more something to use against fortified positions the Na'vi dont use in the first place. I am however, completely for carpet bombing (preferrably with napalm) of the entire goddamn jungle around mining sites
Could've just vented their garbage while heading in at normal cruising speed and pelted Pandora with a rain of empty Skoal cans going 70% of light speed.
The one thing I never understood is why they didn't improve the protection of the pilot. Even after coming back in the second movie. One of the main ways they were taken out was because the pilot was shot threw the glass with an arrow. Making the glass arrow prove wouldn't seem like a big deal considering the amount of resources they have.
They did, which is why arrows only ever penetrate the cockpit at near point blank ranges. The strength of Na’Vi physiology was still powerful enough to overpower the stronger canopies given a good angle of attack.
Well worst case they could make the cockpit completely sealed of and give them a virtual view of everything around them like when there would be Glas to look through. Would be pretty expensive but it would make the pilot untouchable with arrows. It would seem kinda useless tho having these super expensive helis just to be shot down by stolen human weapons.
The craft and tech, the world building are all amazing in Avatar. Really hope the RDA comes back with a better coordinated force. Bring some aerial fighters too meant for air to air.
Yeah people really forgot that the RDA had zero reason for air to air units. They literally jerry rigged their stuff for this final conflict and still almost won if the entire ecosystem of 20ft dragon things didn’t swarm them.
I was wondering when he was gonna do a video on the big one. The Samson Gunship video was impressive. Never knew there was that much info on that gunship.
Excellent video and essentially a two for one deal too. The detailed aircraft information was nice as well. The amount of world building in Avatar was phenomenal. One another note, I've listened to both volumes of The Sojourn now and have to say the second volume improved on the foundation the first established. My one hope is that there are consequences for Lieutenant Ravi's actions siding with Vice Admiral Redfield once Elizabeth and Cass are able to retake the Avalon. The story so far has depicted him as a young, relatively inexperience officer that most likely sided Redfield because he was an admiral and its been drilled into him to follow the chain of command, but he has spent several months now in story time with Elizabeth as his commanding officer. Given that the characters are all three thousand light-years from Tantalus, I fully expect there to be a reconciliation between those that back Elizabeth and those that back Redfield or at least an amnesty for those that sided with Redfield once Elizabeth reasserts her command of the Avalon, but it would be nice to see friction between Elizabeth and Ravi in the aftermath. Great potential source of character growth for him.
I gotta wonder if the Dragon Gunship would even be a feasible build, let alone a practical warship in a real life combat scenario. The rotors appear to be too small in size for all four to sustain its weight (especially if loaded down with AMP Suits, troops, and a full weapons compliment) and any decently aimed surface-to-air weapon system can easily shoot down the Dragon.
It was designed specifically for use on Pandora, which has lower gravity than earth, and obviously the Nav’i lack SAM weaponry so that point is also moot.
Against a peer opponent a design like this is very much silly for use in frontline contested airspace, but then so is something like an AC-130 in real life. Both serve a similar role of being a floating gun platform used to dominate the ground in aid of infantry forces, only useful so long as they can maintain air superiority. On Pandora they had thought such superiority was uncontested. Turns out they were wrong.
Pandora has a combination of lower gravity and a denser chemical composition of atmosphere than Earth, which means that flying would be remarkably easy there. Fans could be smaller, and use lower RPMs to the same effect. It also means that those scenes where Na'vi hurl themselves from foolish heights would not necessarily be nearly as dangerous as they look as their terminal velocity would be significantly lower than on Earth. Depending on the specific values there might not BE a height they could fall from on Pandora that would be guaranteed lethal.
@@Vastin according to info in the videogame (considered canon and not just a gameplay element), terminal velocity on Pandora is low enough that you are guaranteed survival if you hit some foliage on the way down- not exactly difficult in such dense jungle We see Jake Sully do this in the film too A direct fall to the ground, while not guaranteed lethal, isn't something one would want to try
Ive always loved those helis from avatar, probably some of the most iconic aircraft in sci-fi in my opinion tbh. And super realistic in my opinion, though I think they definitely underestimated their enemies. I wonder if they will ever expand on the universe more
I'm glad you didn't forget the Samson. I always preferred it since it's more like a gunship than an attack craft like the Scorpion. Unfortunately not much is known about it. Thank you for looking at Avatar, legit one of my favorite sci fi movies of all time. The game was fun too.
Yeah, looking at the Samson and the Scorpion, it's like comparing the Huey and the Cobra helicopters in reality. Contemporaries with one acting as a troop transport and the other as the gunship escort.
@@pedro-on-wheels oh fuck off, everything has to be inspired or ripped off of something, Fast and Furious is a ripoff of Point Blanc, Alan Moore's Watchmen are copies of classic superheroes, George Lucas stole his Star Wars ideas from Flash Gordon, heck even Romeo and Juliet is a ripoff of a novel written in the 1500s.
I know Im supposed to hate the RDA and what they stand for, but fuck me if the Scorpion isn't everything I've wanted in a helicopter gunship minus a tail gun or something to launch clouds of explosive powder or a rear tail-gun, as dumb as that might be.
@@KillerOrca dont listen to the movie always..surely today..full of woke propaganda...listen to the stuff that happens behind it..the explanations given for it..than youll find your true calling..but if its just more woke propaganda than well shit
@@Venator-Class_Star_Destroyer Avatar came out almost a decade ago, when I was in high school. Long before any of the stuff you mentioned was even being brought to the horizon. The RDA are the bad guys cause they fight the protag. Thats it. Nothing more complicated or political.
imagine if the humans used fighters and CIWS against the flying people, and not have sent all their ground forces without air support into some random jungle far from the target
Exceptional circumstances led to the RDA's defeat, indeed. Can't wait to see how many Smurfcats get pasted in the next one. Dances With Smurfcats is an okay movie, but a standard story for Cameron.
@@moteroargentino7944 fwiw, the Na'vi aren't really the villains either. They were just ignorant, duped into thinking humanity was evil and would never negotiate by the true villain, Jake Sully
Love the Avatar vehicles. Just one thing, though: the video forgot to mention that the Dragon, at maximum payload, can level an area the size of Manhattan in 6 seconds. Would have been nice to see that much firepower in the film, but of course the protagonists would have instantly lost in that case. That original Scifi story looks interesting as well.
I wondered why did not Earth forces just point the starship engines on Pandora and turn the temperature planetside a few hundred degrees up. Then they could just wait a few months to make sure the few remining large lifeforms eat each other then prepare for commencing the mining operations. It would be quiet down there.
And then lose all mining rights to another company, including all rights on assets around the solar system. They’d rather lose the planet and come back later than risk this.
@@samanli-tw3id The don't seem to use cyclic pitch which makes them more akin to a multirotor with constant rate feathering props than a true helicopter.
I have a question. Why do the humans never use jets or faster aircraft, and instead opt for the slower aircraft? I mean, the Na'vi have flying creatures that can outmaneuver, land on, and given enough time, tear apart the slower crafts. I mean, the video itself says that the Scorpion was poor against air to air combat. However, none of this is true with the jet. They can drop their payload and worst case scenario, use supersonic to get out of the battlefield before the creatures have a chance to react. Their bows would also be rendered useless against these speedy targets, and I don't think you are shooting these down with the guns the Na'vi captured. So, the Na'vi would be defenseless as these supersonic bombers blast bases and concentrations of troops to bits. So, why didn't the humans just use supersonic aircraft? Worst comes to worst and there were no advances in supersonic aircraft (Which I highly doubt), they can use the old fighter blueprints. I mean, they gotta have a F-18 or an F-22 blueprint lying around somewhere, right?
Our atmosphere and gravity are not friendly as the Pandora's, also Avatar is in the 50's of the 22th century. So couple steps ahead in tech were taken.
its definatly an efective ship if a little primitive by sci fi standards, this ships got a warm place in my heart becuase i love the original avatar film. and that old bastard colonel quaritch is one of the all time most badass villains in movie history.
I've listened to both volumes of the Sojourn a few times. I really love it. I like the building relationship between Cass and Elizabeth. I'm really curious to see how they'll get out of their current situation. Really looking forward to volume 3
The Scorpion and Samson sharing so many traits but with one being a gunship and the other a utility transport mirrors the relationship of the real life AH-1 Cobra gunships and UH-1 Huey utility helicopters of the US Military…
Thank you so much for making another Avatar-video. My favorite Movie ever!!! This channel is incredible. All the amounts of information, the visuals, sounds etc. I love spacedock! You show sci fi from every angle (every franchise) and with that you allow people to get this genre better know. I learned so much new stuff and now imagine before i discoverd this channel i already was a huge sci fi fan knowing a lot of it but what you do here on UA-cam is WOW.
Loved the sojourn seasons one and two they are one of my go to book only behind Star Wars and Star Wars is my number one I have recommended your series to all my friends
It's easy to see that between this video, and the Samson, you guys are building up to the ISV Venture Star, possibly with a Valkyrie video first to cover all the aerospace craft in Avatar I am VERY excited
I’m glad to hear the audio drama is going so well, I hope to get around to it at some point or at least get my hands on that visual guide :P Keep up the good work
Same, used to be my favourite sci fi aircraft, dune's ornithopters took the number one spot for me now though! Maybe take a look at those in a new video!
I’ve listen to both volumes of the Sojourn several time, I’m looking forward to the next one. Will we hear more about “the dread pirate Croft” and Meds ? (I hope we do)
Looks like the more typical tandem seating of real life helicopter gunships where both the pilot and the gunner have unrestricted view to the sides just makes more sense.
@@kalebk9595 think its mentioned it wasnt purpose built for pandora (just that a request was sent to build on here), but its usual role was more a support one, carrying AMP suits as a transport and being a command platform that can provide air support, thus deployed mainly once air superiority was achieved and anti air mostly silenced.
Say what you want about Avatar but he Dragon went so hard. I would pledge my soul to the military industrial complex if Northrop Grumman promised to make one
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
Check out our original sci-fi audio drama: www.thesojournaudiodrama.com/
When will it be available on audible? Will it ever be? I remember you not feeling treated well from that one video you made about it..
meaning volume 2 of course..
@@manuelrathjen1195 I'm afraid that aside from the first volume, the Sojourn will not be available on Audible. For all the reasons we listed in that video it just not sustainable. Very sorry about that, but it is available on Google Books and elsewhere. - Dan
@@manuelrathjen1195 never. Beyond Vol 1 Audible distribution is done.
Will you do a breakdown of the avatar ISV spaceship?
Always loved how semi-realistic these things looked
The expanse do something similar with their ship design
they reminded me so much of Halo's military-industrialist design theory
@@rrenkrieg7988 i always think of them as the descendants of the Cheyenne dropship from aliens.
I love Cameron's hardware designs, and they could totally be from the same universe.
"Realistic" scifi is kinda hard to pull off, but he usually nails it.
@@rrenkrieg7988 That's because Halo steals everything from everywhere else.
@@michaelgreenwood3413 Halo predates this.
I like how he's drinking coffee in the middle of combat.
Priorities, my guy. Marine need his Go-Juice and Grunt Candy to get through the day.
Captain Janeway approves…
@@casbot71 "There's Coffee under that Tree"
* Drinking Intensifies *
Its the only thing that make the damn corn bread edible.
Humanity number 1 baby!
From Hunter Killers to the Cheyenne Dropship to Avatar's gunships, James Cameron always has the most believable future tech.
Yup. It's a good reason why other scifi franchises mimic his style for their aircraft. Halo's Pelicans, Falcons, and Hornets would fit in with this flotilla perfectly, for example.
The ground transport from Aliens was pure BS. The thing couldn't clear a speed bump in a supermarket parking lot.
What about "Nell" from Battle Beyond the Stars? Y'know, the ship with the um...big rack?
@@VegetaLF7
So Halo’s pelican drop ship first appeared in Halo CE in (2001) and the Hornet first appeared in Halo 3 (2007). Bungee must have been really ahead of the curve to be inspired by a movie that was released in 2009. 😏
@@williamhare4456 Except the comment I was responding to wasn't talking solely about Avatar. The Hunter-Killers and Cheyenne Dropship came from the Terminator and Aliens films, both of which came out well before Halo. Halo's designs took inspiration from that so much that when James Cameron's Avatar came out with more of his realistic future tech vehicles in it, the James Cameron-inspired Halo vehicles would easily fit in the flotilla seen in the film.
I remember analyzing the Battle for Pandora down to its minuscule of details. I compared their literal sizes of each air/ground unit in contrast to the enemy, how drastically outnumbered the Sec Op Forces were, the disadvantages of being in the electromagnetic vortex and found out that despite ALL of the disadvantages the Sec Op Forces faced, the amount of damage they dealt to the enemy without achieving their primary mission was astoundingly brutal. Colonel Quaritch managed to hold off an assault wave that was 3, if not 4, times the size of his own individual units. Even after nature involved itself in the battle, the Colonel managed to avoid his forces from being completely annihilated by pressing the attack, maintaining the initiative and covering his retreating forces as a distraction with the Dragon. Whether humanity was right or wrong for initiating this conflict, there's a level of respect that is demanded from an enemy with the tenacity and ferocity that Colonel Quaritch brought to the table.
Oorah!
@@adamcheklat7387
Semper!
@@marco117sw Fidelis!
The biggest problem I have with that battle, but I don't see any other way James Cameron could've had the Na'Vi winning, is that the RDA didn't even try to use the higher flight ceiling and VTOL capabilities to their advantage.
On Earth, with a sparser atmosphere and greater gravity, helicopters can fly MILES above ground, and it's shown in the movie that they can reach the highest floating mountains with ease. Instead of flying into an obvious ambush in tight space, they could've flown ABOVE the Hallelujah mountains with no issue, gun down any approaching forces at a distance with the now ample open space, prevent the Na'vi to use the diving bow attacks that they knew would use (they used that tactic against the squad defending the excavators, and RDA personnel explain it to the audience), and they then could've slowly lower the Valkyrie above the Tree of Souls for a safe and clear bombing. The only one that could've done any harm to them then would've been Trudy, but it would still be a single aircraft against dozens.
@@CommissarLORDBernn
Good points. Not to defend the events that transpired, but I was under the impression that the Hallelujahs were in the way of a direct bombing from above. I do believe the lack of an actual dedicated bomber not being present was another factor since the aircraft being used was improvised. Which meant they had to unload the munitions and payload manually at subsonic speeds. Or at the very least, slower than air-to-ground engagements in modern warfare. Interestingly, I brought up the same point for the Rebel attack on the Death Star. Why would they fly down a heavily defended trench when they could simply fly directly at it from above? 🤷♂️
Yes! I loved the last one, was hoping you'd do these as well. Avatar actually has a fantastic "sci-fi Vietnam" military aesthetic, and I think that goes underappreciated by most.
Don't forget that eventhough the movie was good It was still mostly about one man who betrays humanity, just to clap come alien cheeks.
Wall as close as you get as he natives don't have a more conventional military which alot of people seem to forget also forget how the Vietcong fight what they view as another imperialist invaders the US they weren't so much fighting for communism as fighting to determine their future by themselve
Go home space G.I. Go home!
@@Chass3urTV 🤔😁😁
He loves that theme and does it well from both sides.
Aliens: "primitive" forces overwhelming a more tech advanced but command inept group of soldiers. (Also avatar lol)
T2: outclassed humans (and maguffin helper) defeating a hugely advanced technical force.
Titanic: sneaky but well intentioned good guy manages to out woo scion of powerful family.
Piranha 2: errrrr.....a bunch of critters that cant breathe air kill a bunch who can? Yeah, kinda reaching there but not that far lol
What I don't get is why the security force was so tightly clustered at a low altitude, going slow. They could have used the drop ship to drop the payload at a higher altitude and speed and then cleaned up with the rotary aircraft.
Edit: Or keep the shuttle up high until they find their target and then escort for a short bomb run instead.
Because we can't have a "humanity bad" movie, where the humans actually win.
Because that would make tactical sense and movie plots for some reason can't use that.
Because hubris. History is filled with technological superior forces underestimating their enemy through hubris
@@TheLoraxshadenough That's true.
I think its for two reasons, in the floaty mountain land sensors are unreliable and its often misty, if you can't really see you have to go slow unless you want to see a mountain real up close.
Secondly because they didn't have a dedicated EMP hardened bombing platform.
They had to use the shuttle and convert it to drop crates of parachute equipped explosive out the back.
If you are just dumping bombs out the back of a transport aircraft you need to fly low and slow, to have any chance at all of hitting the target.
Since the Shuttle wasn't designed for war they had to cluster close to protect it.
Thirdly they just completely underestimated the enemy, they hadn't really fought a open conflict before.
They always reminded me of the Hornet and Vulture aircraft from Halo Wars. Great video as always Spacedock!
A VTOL with rotors is a VTOL with rotors ye?
Don't forget the Banshee from Starcraft II. TvTropes calls them "FutureCopters" - two or more ducted fans instead of a single rotor, very common in sci-fi.
@@KillerOrca there's a difference between VTOLs and helicopters
@@RorikH they're all based off of a real aircraft, the X-22.
@@michaelgreenwood3413 I looked it up. It's neat.
"It's only through exceptional circumtsances that they were defeated"
Isn't that the truth?
Yep, they basically had to face a zerg swarm. There's no way to get out of that without the use of mass destruction weapons.
@@TheCoolCucumber I remember from the movies game that it was illegal under a treaty for the RDA to have any weapons of mass destruction, so I guess the RDA was fucked once the Zerg rush started. It also put some limits on it's military power in space.
@@TheCoolCucumber If the sequel doesn't start with an Earth fleet showing up and then either using nukes or asteroids for orbital bombardment of the evil human murdering aliens then it's a garbage film and totally unrealistic to how humans react to being attacked with large casualty numbers cough pearl harbour cough 9/11.
@@TheCoolCucumber Yeah, technically you can stop a swarm with enough firepower, but if humans strength is technology, Zerg/Eywa is numbers. To be able to stop them without using the big guns, you'll need to increase your numbers to level the board. RDA's security forces were a small task force against a whole planet. You can't win that game.
@@moteroargentino7944 Problem is, unobtainium is the spice melange in this universe. A realistic response from the Sky People will be to bring plenty of guns and people to make sure the spice- er, minerals flow. I'd expect nothing less than a military expedition comprising at least 10 Venture Star-like craft to deal with the natives. If unobtainium is as valuable as the worldbuilding says, they will come for it and make sure to secure their supply for Earth.
"Break formation, Engage all hostile"
has to be the most awesome way to begin a battle
Any variation of that is always badass. I especially love hearing "weapons free"
"Weapons hot!"
"Fire at will!"
"F*ck em up!"
"Engaging!"
"Send them to hell!"
“Exceptional Circumstances”
That kids is what we call plot.
F The Plot, Were Is My Massacre?
Sequel would probably just be them hitting the area with several sizable asteroids moving at decent speed and going back to strip mining the place, while being a lot less accommodating to any surviving natives
Yeah, one big asteroid in the right place would trigger a nuclear winter and wipe out 99% of those pesky life forms. Then the RDA sends word back to Earth of a “natural disaster on Pandora” and how they need extra reinforcements to “help” the natives.
@@mattwho81 As long as the natives don't also do the same, with human tech left behind, could they protect themselves using Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine?
@@marc0523 the natives don't have nukes and even if they had, they don't have the transportations they need to travel to earth. Furthermore, humans have much more advanced weapons and they might be better equipped next time they are going to invade the native's planet.
They can't. UN Charter Agreement.
They lose ALL off-earth Monopolies on products if they use WMDs on Pandora.
@@holonow4298 I was thinking of them using asteroids on earth, steal a spaceship, and wait somewhere sneaky encase anyone on earth tried to use asteroids.
As an aircraft mechanic, i am *super impressed* with the level of technical details that they thought of here. And/or the level of things that you went into. *Every single word of that* was spoken like things and details that could very well apply to a real aircraft! Like...85-90% probably! Provided we had a dense enough atmosphere to fly them in! XD
(Except maybe the electromagnetic armor enhancement of the Dragon. That's impossible afaik)
Although i will only point out 1 teeny tiny detail.
1:15 "Dual coaxial Ducted fan rotors"
Key part im gonna point out.
"Dual coaxial" is accurate.
"Ducted rotors" is a perfectly acceptable term. Not "ducted fan rotors."
Calling them fans, even though they are ducted, is incorrect. And the reason i point this out is valid, though irrelevant as this is a movie ffs. 😂
When the blades obstruct more than 40-50% of the airspace in the duct, when you see more of the blades than through the blades, it becomes a fan, and not a rotor or propeller. For super nerdy aerodynamic reasons involving turbulence around the blades, it changes how it has to be designed. The angles of the blades, the speed they can rotate at, their lifting power or "traction" if you will, etc. etc.
Super thin hair splitter. But we airplane mechanics, like Vulcans, embrace technicality.
Technicalities can, and occasionally do, mean the difference between a safe routine flight, and and emergency situation.
tip-of-the-tongue example:
The famed "Gimli Glider" ran out of fuel due to a technicality error.
Loved the video, Spacedock! I seriously enjoy when scifi goes into such specifics and details like this. Really stimulates the neurons!
Anyone who says the word "unobtainium" with a straight face and without breaking into laughter should be awarded all the Oscars, past present and future
It's a real slang term in aviation engineering. It first referred to aluminum and than later titanium and was adopted because of the difficulty in getting those materials during certian eras
Unobtainium and it sibling metals handwavium, impossibrium, raritanium, and hardtofindium are integral to much of science fiction.
Star Trek inertial stabilizers are made of Impossibrium.
Most FTL engines and force fields run on Handwavium.
Wormholes are held open with Unobtainium.
@@vonfaustien3957 not just aviation. any engineering field with regular bouts against materials science.
I do find that gem of a writing artifact "what should we call thing RDA wants?" wonderful
*Laughs in actual historical uses of Unobtainium long before Avatar came out*
Avatar Two:
*opening credits*
*nukes from space*
*closing credits*
Can’t afford to taint the mines :P But massed aerial bombardment, still an option.
At least it isn't a future-history setting that I've been working on. The moment that the planetside mining facilities got overrun, it's _carpet nuke_ time by forces in orbit.
... with MIRVs hauling multiple multi-hundred megaton pure-fusion warheads.
What About An orbital Railstrike?
nukes would likely be the one thing they wouldnt drop: remember they want to mine here, and turning the surface in an irradiated wasteland would make that WAY harder. Railstrikes from orbit are more something to use against fortified positions the Na'vi dont use in the first place. I am however, completely for carpet bombing (preferrably with napalm) of the entire goddamn jungle around mining sites
Could've just vented their garbage while heading in at normal cruising speed and pelted Pandora with a rain of empty Skoal cans going 70% of light speed.
The one thing I never understood is why they didn't improve the protection of the pilot. Even after coming back in the second movie. One of the main ways they were taken out was because the pilot was shot threw the glass with an arrow. Making the glass arrow prove wouldn't seem like a big deal considering the amount of resources they have.
They did, which is why arrows only ever penetrate the cockpit at near point blank ranges. The strength of Na’Vi physiology was still powerful enough to overpower the stronger canopies given a good angle of attack.
You're forgetting those arrows are christmas tree sized, there's only so much proofing you can do to glass
Well worst case they could make the cockpit completely sealed of and give them a virtual view of everything around them like when there would be Glas to look through. Would be pretty expensive but it would make the pilot untouchable with arrows. It would seem kinda useless tho having these super expensive helis just to be shot down by stolen human weapons.
The craft and tech, the world building are all amazing in Avatar. Really hope the RDA comes back with a better coordinated force. Bring some aerial fighters too meant for air to air.
Yeah people really forgot that the RDA had zero reason for air to air units. They literally jerry rigged their stuff for this final conflict and still almost won if the entire ecosystem of 20ft dragon things didn’t swarm them.
I come from the future. The RDA barbecued a continent when returning to Pandora.
I was wondering when he was gonna do a video on the big one. The Samson Gunship video was impressive. Never knew there was that much info on that gunship.
There was a whole book on it, the Resistance Field Guide from back in the day.
Loved the tech of the Avatar. Like a mix between modern and futuristic.
"exceptional circumstances" is an understatement, shit was straight plot armour, lol.
It’s cool to me how the Dragon has its own separate cockpit for a gunner, kind of like real-work attack helicopters like the Hind and Apache…
Though I must question the right side visibility of the gunner cockpit though due to being obstructed by the main pilot cockpit.
Excellent video and essentially a two for one deal too. The detailed aircraft information was nice as well. The amount of world building in Avatar was phenomenal. One another note, I've listened to both volumes of The Sojourn now and have to say the second volume improved on the foundation the first established. My one hope is that there are consequences for Lieutenant Ravi's actions siding with Vice Admiral Redfield once Elizabeth and Cass are able to retake the Avalon. The story so far has depicted him as a young, relatively inexperience officer that most likely sided Redfield because he was an admiral and its been drilled into him to follow the chain of command, but he has spent several months now in story time with Elizabeth as his commanding officer. Given that the characters are all three thousand light-years from Tantalus, I fully expect there to be a reconciliation between those that back Elizabeth and those that back Redfield or at least an amnesty for those that sided with Redfield once Elizabeth reasserts her command of the Avalon, but it would be nice to see friction between Elizabeth and Ravi in the aftermath. Great potential source of character growth for him.
This should have a spoiler alert
I feel like most people under appreciate the amount of time and details that went into the design of the RDA’s tech.
I gotta wonder if the Dragon Gunship would even be a feasible build, let alone a practical warship in a real life combat scenario. The rotors appear to be too small in size for all four to sustain its weight (especially if loaded down with AMP Suits, troops, and a full weapons compliment) and any decently aimed surface-to-air weapon system can easily shoot down the Dragon.
It was designed specifically for use on Pandora, which has lower gravity than earth, and obviously the Nav’i lack SAM weaponry so that point is also moot.
Does it have ECM? If so then proper ECM makes missiles basically obsolete
Against a peer opponent a design like this is very much silly for use in frontline contested airspace, but then so is something like an AC-130 in real life. Both serve a similar role of being a floating gun platform used to dominate the ground in aid of infantry forces, only useful so long as they can maintain air superiority. On Pandora they had thought such superiority was uncontested. Turns out they were wrong.
Pandora has a combination of lower gravity and a denser chemical composition of atmosphere than Earth, which means that flying would be remarkably easy there. Fans could be smaller, and use lower RPMs to the same effect. It also means that those scenes where Na'vi hurl themselves from foolish heights would not necessarily be nearly as dangerous as they look as their terminal velocity would be significantly lower than on Earth. Depending on the specific values there might not BE a height they could fall from on Pandora that would be guaranteed lethal.
@@Vastin according to info in the videogame (considered canon and not just a gameplay element), terminal velocity on Pandora is low enough that you are guaranteed survival if you hit some foliage on the way down- not exactly difficult in such dense jungle
We see Jake Sully do this in the film too
A direct fall to the ground, while not guaranteed lethal, isn't something one would want to try
Ive always loved those helis from avatar, probably some of the most iconic aircraft in sci-fi in my opinion tbh. And super realistic in my opinion, though I think they definitely underestimated their enemies.
I wonder if they will ever expand on the universe more
I'm glad you didn't forget the Samson. I always preferred it since it's more like a gunship than an attack craft like the Scorpion. Unfortunately not much is known about it. Thank you for looking at Avatar, legit one of my favorite sci fi movies of all time. The game was fun too.
Yeah, looking at the Samson and the Scorpion, it's like comparing the Huey and the Cobra helicopters in reality. Contemporaries with one acting as a troop transport and the other as the gunship escort.
"Through special circumstances they were defeated"
We call it -- plot contrivance :)
Any chance of the ground based machines of the RDA?
@@bthsr7113 The Swan, the Gator, and possibly even the firearms carried by SecOps soldiers would also be interesting.
I believe there was a vehicle called the grinder
@@kadendookie178 The mining machines?
@@thomasoates3003 no, the grinder was an ATV like vehicle. It was only seen in the game tho
I've always loved the design of the Scorpion, ever since I saw the movie as a kid, it was my template for a "near future gunship"
The Dragon reminds me of the UNSC's Vulture Gunship
Say what you want about Avatar but there’s some damn fine world building and attention to detail in that movie
all completely stolen "wold building" stories .... what a complete joke of a movie. james, you lost all credibility with this pile of crap
@@pedro-on-wheels oh fuck off, everything has to be inspired or ripped off of something, Fast and Furious is a ripoff of Point Blanc, Alan Moore's Watchmen are copies of classic superheroes, George Lucas stole his Star Wars ideas from Flash Gordon, heck even Romeo and Juliet is a ripoff of a novel written in the 1500s.
The Dragon was also used as a sort-of bomber, utilizing mining explosives as a type of a daisy cutter ordinance.
That was the shuttle that they were escorting. Only it had cargo bay to carry the pallets of mining explosives
Most beautiful combat helicopters ever
While I loved the tech and overall aesthetic of Avatar, I am having a hard time deciding if I am looking forward to more Avatar or not.
If there's more of these military machines then I'd like to see it. The worldbuilding of the first movie is definitely made for a franchise.
I know Im supposed to hate the RDA and what they stand for, but fuck me if the Scorpion isn't everything I've wanted in a helicopter gunship minus a tail gun or something to launch clouds of explosive powder or a rear tail-gun, as dumb as that might be.
the RDA stands for the survival of humanity so id say nobody should hate it
@@Venator-Class_Star_Destroyer The statement of the movie is they're the bad guys so...
Its kind of a Star Wars situation really.
@@KillerOrca dont listen to the movie always..surely today..full of woke propaganda...listen to the stuff that happens behind it..the explanations given for it..than youll find your true calling..but if its just more woke propaganda than well shit
@@Venator-Class_Star_Destroyer Avatar came out almost a decade ago, when I was in high school. Long before any of the stuff you mentioned was even being brought to the horizon.
The RDA are the bad guys cause they fight the protag. Thats it. Nothing more complicated or political.
It actually has two tail guns with a 360° field of fire
imagine if the humans used fighters and CIWS against the flying people, and not have sent all their ground forces without air support into some random jungle far from the target
the little lore drops in the video make this universe so much cooler
Exceptional circumstances led to the RDA's defeat, indeed. Can't wait to see how many Smurfcats get pasted in the next one. Dances With Smurfcats is an okay movie, but a standard story for Cameron.
Ah yes, the heroes of Avatar
May the brave marines that died protecting humanity rest in peace.
@@moteroargentino7944 Don't worry, they will be avenged.
@@moteroargentino7944 fwiw, the Na'vi aren't really the villains either. They were just ignorant, duped into thinking humanity was evil and would never negotiate by the true villain, Jake Sully
Where's The Genocide?
"Exceptioanl Circustamces" is a wierd way to say "Plot Armor Obviation".
I had to admit, I’d be friendly to the Navi people, but these mechs and ships looked cool
...those plot armors. Those damned plot armors the navi had...
I want a game/movie where they're the good guys, I love how the machines look
Actually there were Avatar Game in 2009 by Ubisoft. Sadly it not good game.
They aren’t the good guys I agree a game where they are the protagonist but good guys nope
@@SeththeprinceThey are saving humanity so It depends
The AMP suit and the Dragon look like they could be unused concepts for Colonial Marine gear from Aliens.
Love the Avatar vehicles. Just one thing, though: the video forgot to mention that the Dragon, at maximum payload, can level an area the size of Manhattan in 6 seconds. Would have been nice to see that much firepower in the film, but of course the protagonists would have instantly lost in that case.
That original Scifi story looks interesting as well.
Imagine if the Dragon did that similar attack damage to every Banshee in the sky…
“All call signs, switch missiles. Give me HE's at the base of the west columns"
I absolutely love these heils i just want then in a game or in another movie. MORE
I'm loving these aircraft breakdowns!! Keep it up!!
I would love to watch a documentary-like 4-hour movie about the construction of Hell's Gate and it operations, the lore here is awesome!
The problem wasn’t that they couldn’t withstand, the problem was that they allowed themselves to not be able to withstand.
I wondered why did not Earth forces just point the starship engines on Pandora and turn the temperature planetside a few hundred degrees up. Then they could just wait a few months to make sure the few remining large lifeforms eat each other then prepare for commencing the mining operations. It would be quiet down there.
And then lose all mining rights to another company, including all rights on assets around the solar system. They’d rather lose the planet and come back later than risk this.
These are one of my most favourite helicopters
It's not a helicopter, helicopters have collective and cyclic pitch control. Scorpions have neither they are ducted fan VTOLs.
@@atomicskull6405 Samsons and Scorpions are helicopters
@@samanli-tw3id The don't seem to use cyclic pitch which makes them more akin to a multirotor with constant rate feathering props than a true helicopter.
I all ways wanted to know the lore about these gunships love this video
I love how these are very similar to the ones from Dune but they are more practical and realistic
I love Sci-fi Stuff that looks like it has been made by humans, Star Gate and it's run offs did well with that type of stuff.
I have a question.
Why do the humans never use jets or faster aircraft, and instead opt for the slower aircraft? I mean, the Na'vi have flying creatures that can outmaneuver, land on, and given enough time, tear apart the slower crafts. I mean, the video itself says that the Scorpion was poor against air to air combat. However, none of this is true with the jet. They can drop their payload and worst case scenario, use supersonic to get out of the battlefield before the creatures have a chance to react. Their bows would also be rendered useless against these speedy targets, and I don't think you are shooting these down with the guns the Na'vi captured. So, the Na'vi would be defenseless as these supersonic bombers blast bases and concentrations of troops to bits. So, why didn't the humans just use supersonic aircraft? Worst comes to worst and there were no advances in supersonic aircraft (Which I highly doubt), they can use the old fighter blueprints. I mean, they gotta have a F-18 or an F-22 blueprint lying around somewhere, right?
Regular prop fighter bomber is enough, like super tucano, Isn't pandora atmosphere is thicker?
Well, the SeaWasp from The Way of Water was the closest they ever got to a fighter aircraft due to its speed
I’m surprised that the Marines haven’t actually started building such a craft.
Twin rotors like the scoripion are a challenging thing for flight physics and such, wich is why we mostly see those in sci fi media
Our atmosphere and gravity are not friendly as the Pandora's, also Avatar is in the 50's of the 22th century. So couple steps ahead in tech were taken.
@@reflectcard6258 that maybe so, but our modern VTOL tech should make it more possible for today’s standards.
its definatly an efective ship if a little primitive by sci fi standards, this ships got a warm place in my heart becuase i love the original avatar film. and that old bastard colonel quaritch is one of the all time most badass villains in movie history.
ridiculously large and ominously imposing, the Dragon is a pretty effective villain ship.
The dragon is so fucking cool. I love just how many guns are on it. It looks like something the astra militarum would use in 40k
I've listened to both volumes of the Sojourn a few times. I really love it. I like the building relationship between Cass and Elizabeth. I'm really curious to see how they'll get out of their current situation. Really looking forward to volume 3
Honestly, Hoojiwana's voice is just very pleasant. He'd be perfect as a ship computer voice.
Regardless of what you say about Avatar, my favorite part of the film was the Dragon gunship. I’d love to own a Lego model of one.
The Scorpion and Samson sharing so many traits but with one being a gunship and the other a utility transport mirrors the relationship of the real life AH-1 Cobra gunships and UH-1 Huey utility helicopters of the US Military…
Thank you so much for making another Avatar-video. My favorite Movie ever!!! This channel is incredible. All the amounts of information, the visuals, sounds etc. I love spacedock! You show sci fi from every angle (every franchise) and with that you allow people to get this genre better know. I learned so much new stuff and now imagine before i discoverd this channel i already was a huge sci fi fan knowing a lot of it but what you do here on UA-cam is WOW.
I like how you said "exceptional circumstances"
"And that's how we scatter the roaches!"
"Brought down by exceptional circumstances." Otherwise known as plot armour
Usually you don't see this level of intense engineering thought process in such a movie so it's a very nice breath of fresh air even if it's Pandora.
This means we'll get the AMP Suit next right?
Loved the sojourn seasons one and two they are one of my go to book only behind Star Wars and Star Wars is my number one I have recommended your series to all my friends
It's easy to see that between this video, and the Samson, you guys are building up to the ISV Venture Star, possibly with a Valkyrie video first to cover all the aerospace craft in Avatar
I am VERY excited
It’s nice to see S.H.I.E.L.D expanding out
The RDA Scorpion and UNSC Hornet (from Halo) are among my favorite fictional military attack craft.
I’m glad to hear the audio drama is going so well, I hope to get around to it at some point or at least get my hands on that visual guide :P
Keep up the good work
fortunate sun was definitely in the playlists of the pilots of these babies.
RDA leader: did someone say something about a convention in geneva?
"exceptional circumstances"
AKA plot armor
Same, used to be my favourite sci fi aircraft, dune's ornithopters took the number one spot for me now though! Maybe take a look at those in a new video!
love the Battlezine 2 game intro music
I’ve listen to both volumes of the Sojourn several time, I’m looking forward to the next one. Will we hear more about “the dread pirate Croft” and Meds ? (I hope we do)
Basically the dragon was brought down by plot armor
Avatar 2 is out watch trailer at last
there are actually two kinds of scorpions, one attack craft with one pilot seat and the other troop transport craft with a bigger, two-manned cockpit
Did I just watch the same ad 3 times to watch this?
tech of 22 century without bulletproof/arrowproof windows :D
Looks like the more typical tandem seating of real life helicopter gunships where both the pilot and the gunner have unrestricted view to the sides just makes more sense.
Oh this is crazy! Its like old times!
STARBOARD...right side of the aircraft. Looks like they had a pretty good view of that side.
Tech is already going that way, when V-280 Valor will replace UH-60 Black Hawk.
Imagine how big a Target to Fighters, and advanced Missiles Systems the C-21 Dragon Assault Gunship would be in Irl
To be fair tho, that's probably why it was purpose built for Pandora.
@@kalebk9595 think its mentioned it wasnt purpose built for pandora (just that a request was sent to build on here), but its usual role was more a support one, carrying AMP suits as a transport and being a command platform that can provide air support, thus deployed mainly once air superiority was achieved and anti air mostly silenced.
C-21's Air Defense Gun Turrets: Say no more, fighters!
Man these gunships are badass
so the AT-99 Scorpion is the halo UH-144 Falcon and the C-21 Dragon is the Halo AC-220 Vulture
Id say the Sampson is closer to the Falcon, its a cargo/combat craft. The Scorpion is closer to the Hornet, but with way more guns.
@@KillerOrca Way more guns, and no overly exposed passenger seats on the arms.
Both Samson and Falcon are utility helicopters
gotta love how the guy uses his porn name as his military call signal.
I feel the fat gunship would work better with Chinook rotors. Just me?
Huh... and here I thought Papa Dragon was a name Quaritch gave himself because he could. And was a boss.
These were the only things I remember from the movies.
i like how the security guy in the background of the war room got slapped by a gas mask
Say what you want about Avatar but he Dragon went so hard. I would pledge my soul to the military industrial complex if Northrop Grumman promised to make one
It was only through exceptional ineptitude that they were defeated.
You can find Bell X-22 is very similar to C -21 Dragon