What I like most about these video essays in the Let's Talk series is that I can clearly lay out my arguments. I'm OK live, but when I'm able to sit down and collect my thoughts, I think I present far more compelling arguments. I'm more of a writer than a live debater, that much is clear. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this video. Was most definitely a labor of love Previous video: ua-cam.com/video/Z4lqj89u1ZU/v-deo.html Playing Ninja Turtles: ua-cam.com/video/Oq8usb8Bz00/v-deo.html Patreon: www.patreon.com/Th3Birdman Twitter: twitter.com/Th3birdman15 Instagram: instagram.com/Th3Birdman15/ Discord Invite Code: nQZRn5m Subreddit: reddit.com/r/Th3Birdman Facebook: facebook.com/Th3Birdman15
Mcu Critics don’t understand movies with sub plot that is as big as the main plot of the story .. like the black widow movie. The sub plot ( her “family” situation ) is way more intriguing them the main plot. ( freeing the widows and stopping drakeoff ( that was on purpose but I don’t know how to spell his name .) but once you can start reveling the important of the sub plot In these movie you will start seeing the real art and schemes of marvel movies .
Considering that Stephen was probably the most arrogant character in the mcu who believed only he himself knows how to do things right its not out of character for him to continue to do so even after his growth as a person. Its not easy to get rid of that level of arrogance completely.
i'd say he's been a bit humbled after MoM and knows more of what he needs to be careful with and accept the help of others, but still supremely confident and willing to jump the gun, like how he quickly opted to help Clea and go to the Dark Dimension without a second thought even while Dormammu might be livid at seeing him again. He and Thor are my favorite characters of the MCU.
yeah he gets so cocky during his fights that he often gets caught off guard like when he basically stopped trying against Spidey during the fight in the mirror dimension he loses cuz he basically underestimates everyone he fights
How is it that people can't understand the concept of a "fatal flaw"? Strange's fatal flaw is his arrogance. He's too reliant on his own abilities and ignores the advice of others. That's literally the point of his first movie and it's also echoed in MoM. Even if you don't want to take What If into consideration, it's been a theme in practically every movie he's been in. He "has to be the one holding the knife".
@LyokoCypher "You think there will be no consequences, Strange? No price to pay? We broke our rules, just like her!! The bill comes due!! ALWAYS!!!" The MCU has literally shown every consequence due to Dr Strange's arrogance Does the people criticizing the MCU about Strange not remember all the deaths that could of been prevented and all the multiverse secured had him (with Sophie's help) not messed with the time dimension?? I'm not knocking Dr Strange I just love the MCU is staying consistent with his "fall into the abyss" arrogance arcs from the comics
It bothered me how Dr. Strange is almost completely to blame for Peter's life being ruined in No Way Home, and it was completely avoidable. But I don't complain because his arrogance has been a consistent character flaw. It makes sense.
I guess the difference is that we kind of want our heroes to, y'know, develop and grow as people? The entire *point* of the original Dr. Strange movie was that Strange's arrogance was built on an insecure need to control his environment to protect his ego, and in that movie he has an arc about relinquishing control. The movie starts with him fabricating a scenario where he always wins to serve himself, and ends with him fabricating a scenario where he always loses to serve others. He's supposed to have overcome his ego to defeat dormammu, and this development sticks in his appearance in Infinity War, but suddenly vanishes here. People aren't disappointed that he has a flaw, but that he regressed as a character and undid key development
You can even make the argument that when Strange tells Tony "It was the only way" right before he gets dusted, the look of resignation on his face can be interpreted as Strange recognizing his own failure to properly deal with Thanos and the danger he represented. Perhaps he realized Tony was right, but now due to his unwillingness to follow somebody else's plan, he forced them down this harder path.
Good characters does not and should never mean flawless characters. Good characters need flaws like this to make them interesting, and in some cases can help humanize a character. The fact that people complain about Strange like this as if this ISN'T a thing is just baffling to me.
This isn't comic-related, but there's another anime character that gets roasted way worse than Strange. The reason I bring this up is because the people who hate this anime character sound very similar to the Dr. Strange naysayers
Can we get more "Let's Talk" character analysis videos, please? I would like to hear your in depth takes on MCU, Star Wars, etc. I'm always entertained by them! Keep up the great content, bud!
@@mg682 I technically already made one about Spider-Man, specifically, how the MCU got his age wrong. You can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/jhYQgvYyMYI/v-deo.html
@@mg682 I said the same with people slamming Luke's character in the last Jedi when that's who he always was, he over thinks his visions and goes gun ho into what he feels will stop it only to make things worse (running to fight his father losing his hand and costing the rebellion and leading to a retreat and thus the empire built the second death star faster due to that, igniting his lightsaber at Ben making Ben resent Luke and forming the first order with Palpatine..both due to visions that might never come true had he not rushed to conclusions)
@@Chuck_EL Interesting how you cite Luke dropping everything to protect his friends and family... to justify him deliberately trying kill a family member. I also like how you conviniently ignore Luke dropping everything to try to save Vader, him undergoing character growth, and being proven right. You might as well say "It is totally in-character for Luke to betrat and kill Leia; he mentioned wanting to join the Imperial Academy and she is a traitor" or "It is totally in character for Luke to lose a duel to Rey since Episodes IV and V established Luke as not being a great duelist."
You Birdman Sir are the best. Dr Strange has literally been characterised that way, and so glad you brought it up. Especially in Multiverse Of Madness we see the full extent other variants of Dr Strange performing dangerous magic without thinking.
I think a common misnomer with Strange is that he's a level headed, calculated genius who thinks five steps ahead in situations so therefore helping out a teenager by performing such a dangerous spell is somehow out of character. This might be true in a few scenarios but really it comes down to him not being afraid of performing dangerous spells. His first movie establishes that he loves a good challenge (as seen in the driving scene right before the accident) and successfully pulling off a dangerous challenge is his favorite drug. Heck, his whole arc in MOM boils down to relying on other people instead of always being the one to hold the knife, which is why America is the one to defeat Wanda at the end.
The real problem is that he misunderstood the severity of the situation. When he found out that it wasn't anywhere near as important of a situation as Peter had implied, he was rather annoyed. If anything, the real characterization issue is not giving Peter a chance to redeem the villains, which was only there to force a conflict between the 2 and keep him out of the movie for a while
Finally someone explains this in a way that isn’t impossible to understand! I’ve always been annoyed by the fact that people wanna fight against obvious characterization like this, if anything I’m surprised Strange wasn’t this overconfident/arrogant against Scarlet Witch
@@vkiran3576 Also both Wanda and Strange have the same issue , they think they can fix any issue with magic which makes things worse , the whole movie was about them both using the darkhold and acting as if that won't alter their mindsets this is comic accurate to both and in character, it's like people forgot the ending to Wanda vision where she was using the darkhold to find them Now when Agetha used the darkhold she did to get Wanda's power but she wasn't powerful enough to do so and was beaten by Wanda and in agents of shield we see a character use it and the out come wasn't as disastrous as what strange and wanda was doing because both of them are THE most powerful magicians Because of their hubris they assumed "oh if I use it I know my stuff so it won't get as bad " which is why even after Wanda was "beat" Clea came and basically told strange "yeah you fucked up" Wanda is still messed up from it and will still find ways to get to their kids
8:48 at first I just thought "okay Birdie I get it, you don't have to edit the slam dunk in" but then the announcer said "WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE" and I lost it mann this is why I love Birdman 🤣🤣🤣
Another amazing Let’s Talk, Birdman. I would say though, as to the point at 14:40, the reason Dr. Strange doesn’t use the time loop solution against opponents like Ebony Maw or others is because it wouldn’t be affective on them. To the best of my understanding, and as much as I love the comics my understanding isn’t perfect, Dormammu is an extra-dimensional being and so was aware that he was trapped in a time loop, since time is functionally an abstract concept to an entity that powerful. Ebony Maw, Black Dwarf, and more or less any ‘mortal’ opponent would be unaware that they were in a time loop since, to their perspective, the previous loop would be erased every time a new loop started. The Time Gem allowed Strange to retain his memories as he was the one using it, but there’s no evidence (made explicit within the films) that suggests it would work for other ‘mortals’. Now, infinity gems are, as the name would suggest, more or less infinitely powerful, but within the context of the MCU I feel as though these reasons would be the writers’ way of explaining away Strange using that solution for every problem. Otherwise that would be a completely busted power and end every conflict the character could ever come into instantly.
People saying Strange’s characterization lately is “inconsistent” is like when people said Cap going against and questioning the government in Civil War was inconsistent. Like yeah he started as a blind faith loyalist in TFA but throughout his appearances in Avengers and TWS all that trust eroded away, so him being wary of the government is completely in line with his arc. And as Th3Birdman has proven, same goes for Strange. Much like Tony, he has his arcs and learns new lessons and wisdom but at his core he’s still very arrogant and over confident.
TFA - most famously known for standing for The Force Awakens when in your case, it stood for The First Avenger. Me: Does Captain America have the force? Han Solo: That's not how the Force works!
Yeah, Civil War is after Cap found out about Hydra and SHIELD, and was on the receiving end of what government can do to people when the wrong people are in charge. The *real* problem with Civil War is how little the red tape leash on the Avengers actually matters to the plot. It's mostly about Bucky, the people hurt by Bucky's actions, and the mastermind trying to break up the Avengers.
@@themascotwizard5267 And Steve Rogers constantly butted heads with shield, Maria Hill, Nick Fury and many American politicians when they do shady and illegal acts to "win" Especially William Stryker and his anti mutant sermons and anti mutant bills they were trying to force which was the main anthesis of the comic civil war In the comics Another thing the MCU did great was show this and show comic accurate Steve's morality in the avengers, winter soldier and civil war and even shows Steve outright not telling Tony he knew Bucky killed his parents Oh and end game even shows Tony bring up his plan in civil and still didn't forgive Steve and chewed everyone out that he said this was coming and no one listened But don't expect Doug Walker, CinemaSins, Yma, red letter media or that star wars girl and the other lazy/gotta hold their hands throughout a movie crowds to acknowledge this because they all acted like none of these things happened or are in character
I find that too many people conflate writers making the choice to have character's make bad decisions (as they are characterized) with writers making bad choices themselves, and the whole hubbub about Dr. Strange perfectly exemplifies this. Love listening to the Let's Talks!!
You forgot to mention the fact that we literally see a universe in which they beat Thanos in multiverse of madness. That alone proves there isn't just one way to beat Thanos
True, although one correction, it wasn't an alternate timeline/future (which are also considered universes) But a separate universe entirely with a different history. But this still supports his argument how Strange is like that in any universe, regardless if it's another universe, or an alternate future
See this is why you've become one of my favorite youtubers. You're smart, you're funny, you actually know and understand comics and the MCU, and even when I disagree with some of your opinions, I can respect them and you because of how you present them.
Strange also found a loophole on how to get back at Christine from his universe. If he were too… say… reconnect with multiverse Christine… main universe Christine will have an interesting time sleeping.
I always wondered how far into the future the good doctor looked. Perhaps this was the only version in which Wanda destroys the Dark Hold for all time, and space.
I never even noticed that he was outright TOLD that they should destroy it so that no matter how many people die during Infinity War, Thanos wouldn’t have been able to achieve his main goal.
My issue in MoM was never with how Strange was characterized but with how little influence he ultimately had on the Plot. Him talking to Wanda at the beginning and fighting his evil counterpart at the end were the only proactive things he did. Everything else was reactive.
Also Madvocate seems to, like a lot of UA-camrs, only be able to operate in extremes. Only good or only bad, works when reviewing something very objective (like the Flash’s incompetence in the show), but it takes a special touch to review a mixed bag, or concede that the media isn’t entirely good or bad. Something you possess, Th3Birdman. Keep it up!
It’s popular to dump on things, especially popular ones. Just look at Nostalgia Critic, YMS, hell CimemaSins! I guess there’s entertainment to be had, but it doesn’t exactly promote engagement with the material.
Absolute facts, it’s how I discovered I don’t like his generic monotone voice aggressive commentary shtick a hundred other people do outside of anything but his videos on The Flash.
It's worse than that. It reveals that this "objective standard" only works on bad content. It's like the time MauLer gave Avatar: The Last Airbender a 4/10 because he was being hyper-nitpicky and creating nonexistent flaws.
@@MasterGriefSr it's like they believe if they don't like the movie it's due to bad characterization For example I didn't like that Siris Black was killed in the order of the Phoenix and that Harry Potter attempted to murder his murderer but that does NOT mean I think the movie was bad due to it Harry snapping makes sense because black was the only person who fully understood harry and he was best friends with his parents, and he didn't go through with it he calmed himself and understood he'd become more like Voldemort if he did What those channels do is say because black was killed and Harry snapped and almost murdered the movie is bad and it's "out of character" (which is isn't they have shown Harry engraged and outright say he wanted to murder in every film)
Now I don't have nearly as much comic or marvel in general knowledge as you do but I believe the TVA might be a possible reason why Strange only saw a limited amount of futures as in all the other ones where they didn't lose and he wouldn't have dies/been dusted, the TVA would've come to erase him and that timeline so it technically "wouldn't exist" and he couldn't have seen it
Good point unless Since TVA are the time cops perhaps the Sorcerers are partners with the TVA so they'd understand if strange viewed a few more considering both groups try to keep the flow of time correctly
@@alexpena4091 Though, the TVA could view the "Half the universe gets obliterated" as the correct flow of time and wouldn't allow Strange to view more futures. Good argument for either hypothesis, though.
I'm pretty sure Loki asked why the avengers when they time traveled didn't get sent to time jail, and they responded to that's how it was supposed to happen and it followed the correct flow of the timeline. Then they explained that the Loki who escaped was supposed to die and they show him how he keeps dying. Since he survived in a timeline he wasn't supposed to survive in. Basically the TVA wouldn't have stepped in because Strange used the time gem because they saw the timeline follow that specific flow. When they time traveled and Loki escaped, he wasn't supposed to.
@@YahhSirio 14,000,605 is a limited number when you consider he could've technically seen infinite more and we don't know how exactly time works while he uses this technique or how detailed he saw all the outcomes
I found it quite funny that almost all people I’ve seen argue against your point about Dr Strange have close ties/are fans of a Madvocate. I remember watching this guy with a Squirrel avatar who at least played the card to also watch his video, and it was quite the mixed watch to say the least. Literally makes fun of Birdman reading comics (acting as if he’s lying about his comic lore) insults the usage of calling the Stones "Infinity Gems" as if someone can’t have a different way of pronouncing an object, and states that we should ignore Strange's writing in Thor Ragnorok because of the Director of the movie (guess that means we can’t question writing in Joshtice League anymore). I’m on the side that you can learn as many lessons as you want, but you can’t change the inner person inside of a character, otherwise that’s character inconsistency! Dr Strange can learn one day that he needs to let others give advice to his actions, but he won’t learn that all at once and will more than likely still rush into these matters as a short term reaction, which is likely his character. TBF, I may need to rewatch MoM, as there may be something in that movie that contradicts anything I said. That’s pretty much my piece.
I don't get why this is such a hard thing for people to understand. Strange is arrogant, it doesn't matter how smart you are if you're so overconfident you don't second guess your decisions ever. This is honestly a pretty common trope and it happens both in fiction and in real life. Vegeta from dragon ball is an example of another character like this, he's been shown to be intelligent when he actually stops to think, but because he's extremely arrogant he constantly makes dumb decisions on the level of the shit Strange does. Hell, look at Tony Stark in the early MCU. He constantly does stupid shit despite being a genius, because at that time he simply didn't second guess his decisions.
Excellent video as always Birdman; I don't understand how people didn't get these points that you made before(or even from paying attention to the films themselves) but I love that you sat down and put together a marvelous video. I imagine they are quite time-consuming but I think most of us would love to see more videos like these where you go in depth about your points or things you've observed. Keep up the great work and never stop!
As someone more familiar with your gaming, reviews, and of course, EWW Cinemasins, these video essays are a nice change of pace. Don’t know how often they’ll be but I’d honestly love to see more of them. Keep up the great work, B-Man👍
I just wanna say 2 things. 1. This is a great fucking video, and is a great tangible near 1:1 form of my understanding/perception of him as a character. 2. MoM really drives this characterization home. With both our Strange and the others. I would be amazed if someone leaves that movie unconvinced of this argument.
Very nice let's talk. Love the edits Commentator:"With no regard for human life"😂 I also think Strange is consistent. Probably annoyingly so but still consistent
I appreciate the recap of strange. I had forgotten some of this stuff. Even though I already agreed that Strange has stayed consistent in the MCU, it was nice to get a refresh on his history. Also I apprieciate all the editing done in this video. I know that had to have taken some time. Keep doing you man.
The only point I would argue is that when Strange used the time loop against Dormammu, it was in the dark dimension, devoid of time. So this may have played out differently if done on Earth against Ebony Maw, or could just translate to making use of the mirror dimension or something else. Other than that, I agreed completely on the point of this. Appreciate the use of The Mandalorian theme, probably my favorite theme music of all time now
I honestly view the 14 million as the "what if" options based on what ideas Dr Strange think of and check out, including the variations on those ideas to try to work out solutions for problems that might have come up in the previous prediction. He might have been stuck on several variations of just a handful of ideas trying to make them work due to a fixation on said idea before begrudgingly giving up and moving on to the next idea.
I'm just positing now as this just now popped into my video list. Don't know how I missed this as I'm a fan of Th3Birdman and was viewing his videos when this came out or why it was just now recommended. Ah well. I do agree that Strange is being presented in a clear and consistent manner. I would like to argue two points however: First, Strange was warned that using the Time gem/stone was dangerous. Its like launching a nuke. You want to use all your options first before nukes start flying. To quote the dragon from Bone:"Never play an ace when a two will suffice". So Strange whips out the time stone/gem at the last moment. Yes, it'll work(hopefully), but at a huge potential cost. A "cause the universe to end" potential cost. Losing the whole universe(such as causing an incursion that destroys two universes-something that has been mentioned) to temporarily save half of it isn't a smart play. So I didn't feel it was dumb to not use it earlier. Like the comics where the FF have the Ultimate Nullifier when Galactus comes to eat Earth, why don't they just whip that out and destroy the threat? Because the cost is pretty high-the user and target die. Its a last ditch weapon. Like the Time gem/stone is or atleast should be. Also destroying it may have slowed Thanos's quest down, but he has resources. The Avengers time traveled to collect the stones/gems without the time gem/stone, so what if Thanos figured that out or found someone like Hank who had. The stones/gems would still be his. He had to be convinced he won, destroyed the current gems/stones and retired. Then he was vulnerable and could be eliminated before he thought of restoring the gauntlet. Past Thanos would also have to fall as well. You idea would set him back, but not stop him. Only convincing him he won stopped him. Any of the other variations beyond the 14 million would have to accomplish that or outright kill him-such as using the Darkhold and destroying a universe and Strange having to be executed by Black Bolt. The sacred timeline version was better. Second, the Space stone/gem I believe in the comics atleast protects the wielder from moving through space/portaling involuntarily. You can't teleport Thanos or any part of him unless he wants to be. He can't have his arm chopped off unless he wanted that to happen. Just like Strange can't be sent back in time by someone else while he's got the time gem/stone. In What If the Ancient One split him while he was thinking about the stone/gem, but hadn't had it in his possession. He was just looking at it. She had to split him there because he has it with him at all times AFTER that moment. It is even possible the Soul gem/stone would have protected Thanos from Death, hence a fatal shot to the chest would have injured him but would not finish him. Had he already possessed the Mind stone/gem Mantis would likely not have been able to affect his emotions like she did. And he used the Reality gem/stone to counter attempts by Strange to use magic to alter reality at him. That said, I generally agree with you on the rest of your points and your conclusion
I think people are misplacing their criticism. I agree he's always been a flawed character, but the end of infinity war and the ancient one scene in endgame gave people the impression that's he's all knowing and doesn't make mistakes, so when he does end up making mistakes people think it's mischaracterization. I think it's mostly endgame that's making people say this
You had me dying when you called Tilda Swinton "The Harry Potter equivalent of Caillou." Also Doctor Strange is one of my favorite Marvel characters. I managed to get my hands on a 2016 LEGO Sanctum Santorum set which go for about $100. So when I see a video about "Mah Boi" you know I gotta see it.
I completely agree and that's why I love Strange so much. It's the same cockines in the comics he is a flawed hero and that is what makes him compelling to me.
"Strange looks for a way to save his hands, finds the Harry Potter equivalent of Caillou, and she teaches him how to do magic by using gang signs." OH MY WORD!! I laughed like a madman 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Strange being arrogant is a good reason for why he does things without thinking. My only hope which probably will be shown in Dr. Strange 3 is people will call him out how his actions without thinking have consequences and he grows and learns that. The point you brought up for him in NWH was something I never thought about but now I look back and see how true it is
@@HoodedSpidey I mean yes. But he didn’t really take his warning. He more brushed it off. I’m saying really seeing the consequences happen to him and learned from that bc that leaves a bigger impact and can probably get through his thick head
Hey birdman I loved this video bro. You brought up a lot of points about Dr. Strange that I didn’t think about. He really could’ve taken thanos out with the time stone. Love your videos man. Keep it up and keep shutting Jeremy down lol. Can’t wait to see your video.
Yeah, forget that "you weren't there" beef between Stark and Cap, including the not making a phone call when he had the chance part. Strange refusing to destroy *any* of the infinity stones because he didn't want to give up his ace against Dormamu doesn't get the attention it deserves. Strange is the only hero in the MCU more arrogant than Iron Man or pre-worthy Thor.
Doctor Strange is one of those people that is such a genius that he has went back round to being dumb again. He’s too used to being the one holding all the cards and having the right answer to the point that now he goes with the first plan that pops in his head and just ASSUMES it’s going to work because he’s smart, and smart people totally have never had dumb ideas! Right?
Hey Birdman, what do you hope Marvel/Disney/MCU will announce at SDCC? I hope for two things. 1). Cast for Fantastic Four 2). More details on their project involving Mutants. (They haven't explicitly mentioned the X-Men group joining the MCU)
Those are both high on my list. I'm also wondering WTF is up with Black Panther, as we have only a tiny amount of details on the sequel, and it comes out in less than 4 months now. No plot, no trailer, nothing. Maybe we get a trailer (and by we, I mean the attendees)
@@Th3Birdman I heard rumors that they're not recasting him. That would be a shame. Aside from that, how's your day been? My room almost got flooded, lol, since there's a thunderstorm in my area. I'm guessing you don't have to deal with that in Cali as much as others? 😂
What drives me nuts the most about people hating on Strange is complaints about his powers and abilities. Basically people saying when did he learn such and such a spell we didn’t see he learn it or what kind of ability is that? Very good video about deep diving into Stranges characterization
I haven’t read a comic book in years however with the multiverse of madness now existing it shows that the comics are a different universe along side the MCU. So referring to the comics is more on brand than before
That Venom: Lethal Protector comic looks dope! I love how NWH gave it a shoutout in the mid credits scene. “And you thought Lethal Protector was a shit name!”
Because he’s fighting stronger and stronger adversaries, with their growth being exponentially greater than his own growth. He got Statued in No Way Home, so don’t even bring that up.
What fight did Strange do his best in? If your answer is Strange vs Thanos, your idea of strength is off. It may be one of the best fights visually, but effectively, Strange did nothing against Thanos. He didn't kill him, he didn't damage him, he barely even shook him up. All he did was stall, and for a short time that ultimately led to their defeat. Outside of Spidey in NWH (who Strange severly underestimated, I mean, he really thought he could just take the box from Spidey's hands), Strange shows his strength in every fight, even in the first and especially in MoM.
He could stop thanos withought the time stone if thanos didnt have the other stones in infinity war, spider man just beats strange with math. That was an inconsistency.
that part near the beginning about how many futures/timelines/universes and why he stopped when he did was interesting. I hadn't thought of those terms. Clearly he didn't (or couldn't) search an infinite number of them, and most certainly did not view the one where the Illuminati defeated Thanos, or he would have found himself a BlackBolt asap. well said sir.
Meanwhile, in a smarter universe: Wanda and Vision are making out in the hotel when a portal opens. "Hi, I'm a wizard who can see the future. Earth's about to get attacked. Phase to the center of the Earth and wait there until we send you Thanos' coordinates, then pop up like a laser-mounted wack-a-mole."
honestly you made such great points here, i love hearing you discuss films and would really like to see more of this series. though if i were to think of one thing i'm still thinking about it's the time loop solution. i heard before that the reason he couldn't just use the time loop thing on anyone else is because dormammu lives in a dimension without time, as he was initially confused by the loop until strange explained what time was to him and how the time loop worked, so if he used the same method against ebony maw it'd work, but since time already exists on earth he wouldn't notice anything and every time the loop restarts so does maw's memory of the loop. just something i was thinking about when watching the video, but otherwise fantastic video with very well-thought out points man.
If Stephen has such serious flaws, why did fate pick him out to be the Sorcerer Supreme? He could have been, like, 1st lieutenant to The Sorcerer Supreme. Why is he the greatest if he's...not always that great? Don't get me wrong! Though I didn't really read the comics as a kid, I saw the drawings, the images, and I'll never forget this one moment with a very encouraging teacher who in retrospect I realize looked like Doctor Strange... So for me Doctor Strange will always be a cherished figure. Great artwork in my day back in the mid 1970s when I was reading comics as a kid. I'm just wondering, if he has these like tremendous flaws, why was he chosen to be supreme among sorcerers?
I think Charles Xavier sums it up best. "Just because someone stumbles and loses their way, doesn't mean they're lost forever." Despite his faults and missteps, he'll eventually come out on top. Like in Multiverse of Madness for example, he had a huge hand in helping defeat Scarlet Witch by helping Chavez and convincing her she can control her powers, by not letting fear hold her back like it did with him before.
IMO there's validity to both arguements, but I'm leaning toward your arguement than the inconsistency one, but I also think different movies. (Example: NWH contrasts with MOM, I know he lost the Time Stone and is at a disadvantage against Wanda, but he should have more power than Peter in NWH than he showed. Now I don't personally see him getting blitzed by Peter, but that is most definently up for debate as he is within the Mirror Dimension, it dosen't really make sense to me how he got bodied on his turf, but whatever.)
The reason he lost was because he was underestimating Peter. He thought he won at first but didn’t account for his Spider-Sense. He thinks that since Peter is a kid and he’s not much of a challenge and uses magic he THINK will suffice. He was surprised when Peter was able to get keep the box away despite being separated from his body. Against larger threats he will use more advanced spells. Plus the final part was meant to show how another way to beat Strange is to outsmart him, which is the beauty of Peter’s intellect, the fact that he can think his way out of seemingly impossible problems.
Strange's first scene is performing cowboy bullet removal from a brain, something all of his colleagues say is extremely dangerous. Strange does stuff his way, when he wants, how he wants without regard to consequences.
Thanos also tells Dr. Strange this when they finally squared up 1 on 1. Paraphrasing - he says all that magic and you didn't use your greatest one or something like that. Considering that because Strange saw the future, saw that particular path to victory, he failed to think about other ways to win in that moment. Once again, great video birdman!!!
People seem to forget that just because he had an arc and became a better person than he was at the start of his first movie does not mean that he loses all of his negative traits And another explanation for the 14,000,605 moment is that those were all the possible futures that he could look at before he was overwhelmed and needed to shut it down (he did spaz out a bit when he snapped out of the spell). While he's smart, if he looked into infinity itself, he'd go crazy and wouldn't be of any use. This still means there were other ways to beat Thanos, but he just physically couldn't look further than he did. He also might have even disregarded futures where he died (and couldn't be brought back) because he either believed there was no way for them to win without him, or he wasn't willing to permanently die to beat Thanos. Either way, his arrogance would be a factor in his decision making, which is consistent to his character
This video was genuinely unnecessary given your points were clearly stated twice, but I'm a sucker for video essays on nerd shit, so I appreciate what was done here. Now let's watch all of THOSE people flat-out ignore it anyway and still have dumb shit to say. Great video, Bird.
You know.... I think that you're right And I believe that (in MoM) Strange got a visible lecture on his behavior.... specifically his arrogance being the very thing that made him a destructive influence to his surroundings. I find the line: "You always had to be the one behind the knife" to be a perfect character call-out. Letting both audience and in universe players know why Strange was deemed to be a threat. With Nightmare (I'm calling him this because that's probably the only version of him that would fit the MCU), we saw the damage he caused with him not considering the consequences of dream walking.... He caused an Incursion just by being like Wanda.... he wanted what he could never have. Strange Supreme did the same thing, but in a more contained space.... and all because he felt that he couldn't live without Christine Palmer. More to the point. Stephen's natural affinity to the mystic arts and his drive to fix everything was, before Wanda came in and started casually dismembering the Illuminate, the most imminent threat to the Multiverse as a whole.
Strange has never actually learned his lesson on misusing magic because he always solves It. Him being so confident imo is easily earned due to everything working out so why would strange consider the issues with what's he's doing if he thinks he can fix anything anyway
Damn, he made the point in the spiderman video, hammered it home in the response video, and then put another 17 screws to lock it in place in this one. impressive, bravo sir.
Had Wong been the Sorcerer Supreme from the get go, he would have probably done most if not everything you thought of, because Wong is a warrior, while Strange is a doctor. Two completely different mindsets. Strange thought that since he was able to defeat Dormammu, he could defeat the Black Order.
But, what I really wanna know is: how much does Strange remember about P.P. & the events in NWH? And what will happen to Strange's mind over time as he has to maintain that barrier between what he does remember and what he intended to forget? Will his mind erode like a CoC character? What would it take for his mind to break, the spell to drop, that barrier to collapse? And what happens if & when that occurs?
In the comics Strange steps down as the sorcerer supreme and willingly allows himself to be put in a stasis dimension with elder wizards who failed and died brutally from their arrogance to teach him how to work with others and to not bastardized magic spells (they showed a homage to this in the what if episode)
Loved the video and I find you're absolutely right about Strange not thinking things through, even with the amazing powers at his disposal. Another option Strange had when facing Thanos was using the Time Gem to pull a DIO, freeze time, and then kill him a billion times over with like a billion magic knives, or a steam roller, or just cutting his head/arm off.
About the sling ring solution, in an interview with the russos brothers they said and I quote “Thanos' skin is almost impenetrable, we don't know whether Doctor Strange had the capability to do it. If he failed to cut it on time, Thanos would still able to do the snap. Doctor Strange realized this issue during his millions of test runs.” So cutting someone with a sling ring is not something doctor strange can just do to anyone and not worry about the chance it will succeed, because it doesn’t ignore conventional durability (as stupid as that might sound).
I don't find that interview to be explanative at all. When you're the writer, you must have definitive answers for these things, and this sounds to me like someone presented to them an idea that would have worked, and they came up with an answer on the spot, and a flimsy one at that. Saying "we don't know" means "we didn't think of that". But in-universe, Strange didn't even try. If the writers didn't know, he didn't either, which lends credence to my point there-- he didn't think of that.
Respectfully, there is also the point that Strange doesn't kill. This was also established in the first movie, and would still be an important factor in his actions in infinity war.
Also gonna point out on the Sling Ring thing: they could have used it to cut off Thanos's arm while they had him pinned with Mantis. Even if the fight continues after that, Thanos has no way to know where the Gauntlet is if he beats the heroes on Titan, and he doesn't have the other Gems to give him the edge against Strange in a prolonged fight... not to mention the Gauntlet doesn't appear to have been designed with ambidexterity in mind.
What got me when i watched What If? T'Challa became a Starlord, and again when i watched Thor: L&T, was - why didn't the Avengers try to turn Thanos to the Light Side - convince him to use the gems to double the universes resources, or something similar. T'Challa did something like that in What If? and Thor persuaded Gorr to use his wish for good in T: L&T. The reason Why Not? is b/c Strange was being consistent.
I know i am late to the party but to be fair 9:50 Loki proves that free will doesnt truly exist until "He who remains" is killed so even if Strange chose another path or wasn't that prideful the TVA would have pruned that timeline till the Thanos gets timestone happened like it was "suppose to". who knows maybe if Strange chose any other option he might have be taken from the MCU and he might be the star of an alternate "Loki" show and the MCU would have be pruned by the TVA anyways for deviating from the path "He who remains" had chosen.
No, no, no, no, no-- did you watch Loki? The TVA was a sham organization. It was not concerned with pruning timelines that "weren't supposed to happen", I have NO idea why so many people continue to say this. It's like y'all didn't finish the series. Kang was only interested in preventing timelines where other Kangs appeared. That's it, that's all, it had nothing to do with free will. Kang just knew what would happen because he's a time traveler.
What I like most about these video essays in the Let's Talk series is that I can clearly lay out my arguments. I'm OK live, but when I'm able to sit down and collect my thoughts, I think I present far more compelling arguments. I'm more of a writer than a live debater, that much is clear.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy this video. Was most definitely a labor of love
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Hi princess. Thanks for the video, there goes a video added to the list that I’m planning to watch as a compilation 🤷♂️
By the way……. Harry Potter equivalent of Caillou…..
hahahahahahahahahahahahahah…….
Mcu Critics don’t understand movies with sub plot that is as big as the main plot of the story .. like the black widow movie. The sub plot ( her “family” situation ) is way more intriguing them the main plot. ( freeing the widows and stopping drakeoff ( that was on purpose but I don’t know how to spell his name .) but once you can start reveling the important of the sub plot In these movie you will start seeing the real art and schemes of marvel movies .
16:05 perfect impression btw 🤣🤣
U inspired me to make my own EEW videos
Considering that Stephen was probably the most arrogant character in the mcu who believed only he himself knows how to do things right its not out of character for him to continue to do so even after his growth as a person. Its not easy to get rid of that level of arrogance completely.
I think Tony Stark has him beat in terms of arrogance.
i'd say he's been a bit humbled after MoM and knows more of what he needs to be careful with and accept the help of others, but still supremely confident and willing to jump the gun, like how he quickly opted to help Clea and go to the Dark Dimension without a second thought even while Dormammu might be livid at seeing him again.
He and Thor are my favorite characters of the MCU.
I think Thanos beats them both by a thousands milestones
yeah he gets so cocky during his fights that he often gets caught off guard like when he basically stopped trying against Spidey during the fight in the mirror dimension he loses cuz he basically underestimates everyone he fights
@@YahhSirio
But Doctor Strange most definitely did not underestimate Thanos
How is it that people can't understand the concept of a "fatal flaw"? Strange's fatal flaw is his arrogance. He's too reliant on his own abilities and ignores the advice of others. That's literally the point of his first movie and it's also echoed in MoM. Even if you don't want to take What If into consideration, it's been a theme in practically every movie he's been in. He "has to be the one holding the knife".
Because not everyone is a percy jackson fan
@LyokoCypher
"You think there will be no consequences, Strange? No price to pay? We broke our rules, just like her!! The bill comes due!! ALWAYS!!!"
The MCU has literally shown every consequence due to Dr Strange's arrogance
Does the people criticizing the MCU about Strange not remember all the deaths that could of been prevented and all the multiverse secured had him (with Sophie's help) not messed with the time dimension??
I'm not knocking Dr Strange I just love the MCU is staying consistent with his "fall into the abyss" arrogance arcs from the comics
It bothered me how Dr. Strange is almost completely to blame for Peter's life being ruined in No Way Home, and it was completely avoidable. But I don't complain because his arrogance has been a consistent character flaw. It makes sense.
@LyokoCypher I know I was just adding to what you said
I guess the difference is that we kind of want our heroes to, y'know, develop and grow as people?
The entire *point* of the original Dr. Strange movie was that Strange's arrogance was built on an insecure need to control his environment to protect his ego, and in that movie he has an arc about relinquishing control. The movie starts with him fabricating a scenario where he always wins to serve himself, and ends with him fabricating a scenario where he always loses to serve others. He's supposed to have overcome his ego to defeat dormammu, and this development sticks in his appearance in Infinity War, but suddenly vanishes here. People aren't disappointed that he has a flaw, but that he regressed as a character and undid key development
You can even make the argument that when Strange tells Tony "It was the only way" right before he gets dusted, the look of resignation on his face can be interpreted as Strange recognizing his own failure to properly deal with Thanos and the danger he represented. Perhaps he realized Tony was right, but now due to his unwillingness to follow somebody else's plan, he forced them down this harder path.
I honestly don't get why people have an issue with Strange's writing
He's a flawed person, that makes him feel more realistic imo
Good characters does not and should never mean flawless characters. Good characters need flaws like this to make them interesting, and in some cases can help humanize a character. The fact that people complain about Strange like this as if this ISN'T a thing is just baffling to me.
This isn't comic-related, but there's another anime character that gets roasted way worse than Strange.
The reason I bring this up is because the people who hate this anime character sound very similar to the Dr. Strange naysayers
@@IchiGurou Who is this anime character? Where is he/she from? Why was that character hated? And do you think that hatred is deserved?
@@ninjanibba4259 thank you
@@IchiGurou I'd like to gamble and say Shinji Ikari form Evangelion? The arguements sound so similar so I thought it lined up.
Can we get more "Let's Talk" character analysis videos, please? I would like to hear your in depth takes on MCU, Star Wars, etc. I'm always entertained by them! Keep up the great content, bud!
i definitely wanna see one for the MCU spiderman, cuz i feel i've been wrong about him too due to him not being my favorite.
@@mg682 I technically already made one about Spider-Man, specifically, how the MCU got his age wrong.
You can see it here: ua-cam.com/video/jhYQgvYyMYI/v-deo.html
@@mg682 I said the same with people slamming Luke's character in the last Jedi when that's who he always was, he over thinks his visions and goes gun ho into what he feels will stop it only to make things worse
(running to fight his father losing his hand and costing the rebellion and leading to a retreat and thus the empire built the second death star faster due to that, igniting his lightsaber at Ben making Ben resent Luke and forming the first order with Palpatine..both due to visions that might never come true had he not rushed to conclusions)
@@Chuck_EL Interesting how you cite Luke dropping everything to protect his friends and family... to justify him deliberately trying kill a family member.
I also like how you conviniently ignore Luke dropping everything to try to save Vader, him undergoing character growth, and being proven right.
You might as well say "It is totally in-character for Luke to betrat and kill Leia; he mentioned wanting to join the Imperial Academy and she is a traitor" or "It is totally in character for Luke to lose a duel to Rey since Episodes IV and V established Luke as not being a great duelist."
@@billybob7135 in the films defense, Luke was out of practice and she had the only lightsaber
You Birdman Sir are the best. Dr Strange has literally been characterised that way, and so glad you brought it up.
Especially in Multiverse Of Madness we see the full extent other variants of Dr Strange performing dangerous magic without thinking.
I mean if you think about it… Why else the Illuminati doesn’t trust Earth 616/19999 Dr Strange’s words about the Scarlet Witch?
I know right, even Wanda calls him a hypocrite for dream walking
@@cosmo8720 Dr strange comics were what got me into comics and I can tell you the MCU Dr Strange is very accurate to the comic strange
@@Chuck_EL Nice, wish I had comics… 😢
I think a common misnomer with Strange is that he's a level headed, calculated genius who thinks five steps ahead in situations so therefore helping out a teenager by performing such a dangerous spell is somehow out of character. This might be true in a few scenarios but really it comes down to him not being afraid of performing dangerous spells. His first movie establishes that he loves a good challenge (as seen in the driving scene right before the accident) and successfully pulling off a dangerous challenge is his favorite drug. Heck, his whole arc in MOM boils down to relying on other people instead of always being the one to hold the knife, which is why America is the one to defeat Wanda at the end.
The real problem is that he misunderstood the severity of the situation. When he found out that it wasn't anywhere near as important of a situation as Peter had implied, he was rather annoyed.
If anything, the real characterization issue is not giving Peter a chance to redeem the villains, which was only there to force a conflict between the 2 and keep him out of the movie for a while
Finally someone explains this in a way that isn’t impossible to understand!
I’ve always been annoyed by the fact that people wanna fight against obvious characterization like this, if anything I’m surprised Strange wasn’t this overconfident/arrogant against Scarlet Witch
Well he was too busy running for his life....
@@vkiran3576 Also both Wanda and Strange have the same issue , they think they can fix any issue with magic which makes things worse , the whole movie was about them both using the darkhold and acting as if that won't alter their mindsets this is comic accurate to both and in character, it's like people forgot the ending to Wanda vision where she was using the darkhold to find them
Now when Agetha used the darkhold she did to get Wanda's power but she wasn't powerful enough to do so and was beaten by Wanda and in agents of shield we see a character use it and the out come wasn't as disastrous as what strange and wanda was doing because both of them are THE most powerful magicians
Because of their hubris they assumed "oh if I use it I know my stuff so it won't get as bad " which is why even after Wanda was "beat" Clea came and basically told strange "yeah you fucked up"
Wanda is still messed up from it and will still find ways to get to their kids
8:48 at first I just thought "okay Birdie I get it, you don't have to edit the slam dunk in" but then the announcer said "WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE" and I lost it mann this is why I love Birdman 🤣🤣🤣
Another amazing Let’s Talk, Birdman.
I would say though, as to the point at 14:40, the reason Dr. Strange doesn’t use the time loop solution against opponents like Ebony Maw or others is because it wouldn’t be affective on them. To the best of my understanding, and as much as I love the comics my understanding isn’t perfect, Dormammu is an extra-dimensional being and so was aware that he was trapped in a time loop, since time is functionally an abstract concept to an entity that powerful. Ebony Maw, Black Dwarf, and more or less any ‘mortal’ opponent would be unaware that they were in a time loop since, to their perspective, the previous loop would be erased every time a new loop started. The Time Gem allowed Strange to retain his memories as he was the one using it, but there’s no evidence (made explicit within the films) that suggests it would work for other ‘mortals’. Now, infinity gems are, as the name would suggest, more or less infinitely powerful, but within the context of the MCU I feel as though these reasons would be the writers’ way of explaining away Strange using that solution for every problem. Otherwise that would be a completely busted power and end every conflict the character could ever come into instantly.
People saying Strange’s characterization lately is “inconsistent” is like when people said Cap going against and questioning the government in Civil War was inconsistent. Like yeah he started as a blind faith loyalist in TFA but throughout his appearances in Avengers and TWS all that trust eroded away, so him being wary of the government is completely in line with his arc.
And as Th3Birdman has proven, same goes for Strange. Much like Tony, he has his arcs and learns new lessons and wisdom but at his core he’s still very arrogant and over confident.
TFA - most famously known for standing for The Force Awakens when in your case, it stood for The First Avenger.
Me: Does Captain America have the force?
Han Solo: That's not how the Force works!
Yeah, Civil War is after Cap found out about Hydra and SHIELD, and was on the receiving end of what government can do to people when the wrong people are in charge.
The *real* problem with Civil War is how little the red tape leash on the Avengers actually matters to the plot. It's mostly about Bucky, the people hurt by Bucky's actions, and the mastermind trying to break up the Avengers.
@@themascotwizard5267 And Steve Rogers constantly butted heads with shield, Maria Hill, Nick Fury and many American politicians when they do shady and illegal acts to "win"
Especially William Stryker and his anti mutant sermons and anti mutant bills they were trying to force which was the main anthesis of the comic civil war In the comics
Another thing the MCU did great was show this and show comic accurate Steve's morality in the avengers, winter soldier and civil war and even shows Steve outright not telling Tony he knew Bucky killed his parents
Oh and end game even shows Tony bring up his plan in civil and still didn't forgive Steve and chewed everyone out that he said this was coming and no one listened
But don't expect Doug Walker, CinemaSins, Yma, red letter media or that star wars girl and the other lazy/gotta hold their hands throughout a movie crowds to acknowledge this because they all acted like none of these things happened or are in character
Day 111 of telling th3birdman I appreciate his content
Wow, just checked you've made over 140 comments on this channel, so it's plausible
I find that too many people conflate writers making the choice to have character's make bad decisions (as they are characterized) with writers making bad choices themselves, and the whole hubbub about Dr. Strange perfectly exemplifies this.
Love listening to the Let's Talks!!
You forgot to mention the fact that we literally see a universe in which they beat Thanos in multiverse of madness. That alone proves there isn't just one way to beat Thanos
True, although one correction, it wasn't an alternate timeline/future (which are also considered universes)
But a separate universe entirely with a different history.
But this still supports his argument how Strange is like that in any universe, regardless if it's another universe, or an alternate future
See this is why you've become one of my favorite youtubers. You're smart, you're funny, you actually know and understand comics and the MCU, and even when I disagree with some of your opinions, I can respect them and you because of how you present them.
Strange also found a loophole on how to get back at Christine from his universe.
If he were too… say… reconnect with multiverse Christine… main universe Christine will have an interesting time sleeping.
I've always thought that Strange saw up to the future outcomes where he survives. The Ancient One couldn't see further than her own death.
I always wondered how far into the future the good doctor looked.
Perhaps this was the only version in which Wanda destroys the Dark Hold for all time, and space.
As an MCU Wiki editor, I love seeing you use it as a credible source
As long as it’s sourced, I will continue to do so 🤙
Thanks for your hard work.
I never even noticed that he was outright TOLD that they should destroy it so that no matter how many people die during Infinity War, Thanos wouldn’t have been able to achieve his main goal.
Here's a question, how many of the futures he saw did Stephen had to make the sacrifice and Strange is like "oh hell!"
This actually made me like the character of doctor strange more. Great vid
My issue in MoM was never with how Strange was characterized but with how little influence he ultimately had on the Plot. Him talking to Wanda at the beginning and fighting his evil counterpart at the end were the only proactive things he did. Everything else was reactive.
there is also him rescuing america from getting kidnap at least 3 times and delaying wanda's plans
Also Madvocate seems to, like a lot of UA-camrs, only be able to operate in extremes. Only good or only bad, works when reviewing something very objective (like the Flash’s incompetence in the show), but it takes a special touch to review a mixed bag, or concede that the media isn’t entirely good or bad. Something you possess, Th3Birdman. Keep it up!
It’s popular to dump on things, especially popular ones. Just look at Nostalgia Critic, YMS, hell CimemaSins! I guess there’s entertainment to be had, but it doesn’t exactly promote engagement with the material.
Absolute facts, it’s how I discovered I don’t like his generic monotone voice aggressive commentary shtick a hundred other people do outside of anything but his videos on The Flash.
It's worse than that. It reveals that this "objective standard" only works on bad content. It's like the time MauLer gave Avatar: The Last Airbender a 4/10 because he was being hyper-nitpicky and creating nonexistent flaws.
@@MasterGriefSr it's like they believe if they don't like the movie it's due to bad characterization
For example I didn't like that Siris Black was killed in the order of the Phoenix and that Harry Potter attempted to murder his murderer but that does NOT mean I think the movie was bad due to it
Harry snapping makes sense because black was the only person who fully understood harry and he was best friends with his parents, and he didn't go through with it he calmed himself and understood he'd become more like Voldemort if he did
What those channels do is say because black was killed and Harry snapped and almost murdered the movie is bad and it's "out of character" (which is isn't they have shown Harry engraged and outright say he wanted to murder in every film)
@@SurfRock74 Exactly, it's like a Crit1cal clone army but with movies and media. So worthless.
Speaking in D&D terms, Strange has a very high Intelligence ability score, but an average Wisdom score. He's a nerd, not a wise men
Now I don't have nearly as much comic or marvel in general knowledge as you do but I believe the TVA might be a possible reason why Strange only saw a limited amount of futures as in all the other ones where they didn't lose and he wouldn't have dies/been dusted, the TVA would've come to erase him and that timeline so it technically "wouldn't exist" and he couldn't have seen it
Good point unless Since TVA are the time cops perhaps the Sorcerers are partners with the TVA so they'd understand if strange viewed a few more considering both groups try to keep the flow of time correctly
@@alexpena4091 Though, the TVA could view the "Half the universe gets obliterated" as the correct flow of time and wouldn't allow Strange to view more futures. Good argument for either hypothesis, though.
I'm pretty sure Loki asked why the avengers when they time traveled didn't get sent to time jail, and they responded to that's how it was supposed to happen and it followed the correct flow of the timeline.
Then they explained that the Loki who escaped was supposed to die and they show him how he keeps dying. Since he survived in a timeline he wasn't supposed to survive in.
Basically the TVA wouldn't have stepped in because Strange used the time gem because they saw the timeline follow that specific flow. When they time traveled and Loki escaped, he wasn't supposed to.
@@seanblack1320 there is infinite possibilities, he could have seen much more, but stopped at the one he thought was the best out of the 14 mil
@@YahhSirio 14,000,605 is a limited number when you consider he could've technically seen infinite more and we don't know how exactly time works while he uses this technique or how detailed he saw all the outcomes
I found it quite funny that almost all people I’ve seen argue against your point about Dr Strange have close ties/are fans of a Madvocate. I remember watching this guy with a Squirrel avatar who at least played the card to also watch his video, and it was quite the mixed watch to say the least.
Literally makes fun of Birdman reading comics (acting as if he’s lying about his comic lore) insults the usage of calling the Stones "Infinity Gems" as if someone can’t have a different way of pronouncing an object, and states that we should ignore Strange's writing in Thor Ragnorok because of the Director of the movie (guess that means we can’t question writing in Joshtice League anymore).
I’m on the side that you can learn as many lessons as you want, but you can’t change the inner person inside of a character, otherwise that’s character inconsistency! Dr Strange can learn one day that he needs to let others give advice to his actions, but he won’t learn that all at once and will more than likely still rush into these matters as a short term reaction, which is likely his character. TBF, I may need to rewatch MoM, as there may be something in that movie that contradicts anything I said.
That’s pretty much my piece.
I don't get why this is such a hard thing for people to understand.
Strange is arrogant, it doesn't matter how smart you are if you're so overconfident you don't second guess your decisions ever.
This is honestly a pretty common trope and it happens both in fiction and in real life.
Vegeta from dragon ball is an example of another character like this, he's been shown to be intelligent when he actually stops to think, but because he's extremely arrogant he constantly makes dumb decisions on the level of the shit Strange does.
Hell, look at Tony Stark in the early MCU. He constantly does stupid shit despite being a genius, because at that time he simply didn't second guess his decisions.
Would be sick seeing Strange fight Mordo and a Comic accurate Dormammo (an avatar or something idk)
Excellent video as always Birdman; I don't understand how people didn't get these points that you made before(or even from paying attention to the films themselves) but I love that you sat down and put together a marvelous video.
I imagine they are quite time-consuming but I think most of us would love to see more videos like these where you go in depth about your points or things you've observed.
Keep up the great work and never stop!
As someone more familiar with your gaming, reviews, and of course, EWW Cinemasins, these video essays are a nice change of pace. Don’t know how often they’ll be but I’d honestly love to see more of them. Keep up the great work, B-Man👍
I just wanna say 2 things.
1. This is a great fucking video, and is a great tangible near 1:1 form of my understanding/perception of him as a character.
2. MoM really drives this characterization home. With both our Strange and the others. I would be amazed if someone leaves that movie unconvinced of this argument.
Very nice let's talk. Love the edits
Commentator:"With no regard for human life"😂
I also think Strange is consistent. Probably annoyingly so but still consistent
I appreciate the recap of strange. I had forgotten some of this stuff. Even though I already agreed that Strange has stayed consistent in the MCU, it was nice to get a refresh on his history. Also I apprieciate all the editing done in this video. I know that had to have taken some time. Keep doing you man.
The only point I would argue is that when Strange used the time loop against Dormammu, it was in the dark dimension, devoid of time. So this may have played out differently if done on Earth against Ebony Maw, or could just translate to making use of the mirror dimension or something else. Other than that, I agreed completely on the point of this. Appreciate the use of The Mandalorian theme, probably my favorite theme music of all time now
That erza Miller comment had me dying.
I honestly view the 14 million as the "what if" options based on what ideas Dr Strange think of and check out, including the variations on those ideas to try to work out solutions for problems that might have come up in the previous prediction. He might have been stuck on several variations of just a handful of ideas trying to make them work due to a fixation on said idea before begrudgingly giving up and moving on to the next idea.
Loved the video dude! You put perfectly into words what I've thought about Strange for years! These Lets Talks are always fun!
The music selection for this video is great
I'm just positing now as this just now popped into my video list. Don't know how I missed this as I'm a fan of Th3Birdman and was viewing his videos when this came out or why it was just now recommended. Ah well.
I do agree that Strange is being presented in a clear and consistent manner. I would like to argue two points however:
First, Strange was warned that using the Time gem/stone was dangerous. Its like launching a nuke. You want to use all your options first before nukes start flying. To quote the dragon from Bone:"Never play an ace when a two will suffice". So Strange whips out the time stone/gem at the last moment. Yes, it'll work(hopefully), but at a huge potential cost. A "cause the universe to end" potential cost. Losing the whole universe(such as causing an incursion that destroys two universes-something that has been mentioned) to temporarily save half of it isn't a smart play. So I didn't feel it was dumb to not use it earlier. Like the comics where the FF have the Ultimate Nullifier when Galactus comes to eat Earth, why don't they just whip that out and destroy the threat? Because the cost is pretty high-the user and target die. Its a last ditch weapon. Like the Time gem/stone is or atleast should be. Also destroying it may have slowed Thanos's quest down, but he has resources. The Avengers time traveled to collect the stones/gems without the time gem/stone, so what if Thanos figured that out or found someone like Hank who had. The stones/gems would still be his. He had to be convinced he won, destroyed the current gems/stones and retired. Then he was vulnerable and could be eliminated before he thought of restoring the gauntlet. Past Thanos would also have to fall as well. You idea would set him back, but not stop him. Only convincing him he won stopped him. Any of the other variations beyond the 14 million would have to accomplish that or outright kill him-such as using the Darkhold and destroying a universe and Strange having to be executed by Black Bolt. The sacred timeline version was better.
Second, the Space stone/gem I believe in the comics atleast protects the wielder from moving through space/portaling involuntarily. You can't teleport Thanos or any part of him unless he wants to be. He can't have his arm chopped off unless he wanted that to happen. Just like Strange can't be sent back in time by someone else while he's got the time gem/stone. In What If the Ancient One split him while he was thinking about the stone/gem, but hadn't had it in his possession. He was just looking at it. She had to split him there because he has it with him at all times AFTER that moment. It is even possible the Soul gem/stone would have protected Thanos from Death, hence a fatal shot to the chest would have injured him but would not finish him. Had he already possessed the Mind stone/gem Mantis would likely not have been able to affect his emotions like she did. And he used the Reality gem/stone to counter attempts by Strange to use magic to alter reality at him.
That said, I generally agree with you on the rest of your points and your conclusion
I think endgame somehow made people think he's not reckless with magic for some reason?
I think people are misplacing their criticism. I agree he's always been a flawed character, but the end of infinity war and the ancient one scene in endgame gave people the impression that's he's all knowing and doesn't make mistakes, so when he does end up making mistakes people think it's mischaracterization. I think it's mostly endgame that's making people say this
You had me dying when you called Tilda Swinton "The Harry Potter equivalent of Caillou."
Also Doctor Strange is one of my favorite Marvel characters. I managed to get my hands on a 2016 LEGO Sanctum Santorum set which go for about $100. So when I see a video about "Mah Boi" you know I gotta see it.
Really love the let's talk episodes happy to see another one
I completely agree and that's why I love Strange so much. It's the same cockines in the comics he is a flawed hero and that is what makes him compelling to me.
"Strange looks for a way to save his hands, finds the Harry Potter equivalent of Caillou, and she teaches him how to do magic by using gang signs."
OH MY WORD!! I laughed like a madman 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
2:05 that's a crazy response 😂
This video is a literal masterpiece
Strange being arrogant is a good reason for why he does things without thinking. My only hope which probably will be shown in Dr. Strange 3 is people will call him out how his actions without thinking have consequences and he grows and learns that. The point you brought up for him in NWH was something I never thought about but now I look back and see how true it is
@@HoodedSpidey I mean yes. But he didn’t really take his warning. He more brushed it off. I’m saying really seeing the consequences happen to him and learned from that bc that leaves a bigger impact and can probably get through his thick head
I must say that I loved all the pop culture references. Very well done
Hey birdman I loved this video bro. You brought up a lot of points about Dr. Strange that I didn’t think about. He really could’ve taken thanos out with the time stone. Love your videos man. Keep it up and keep shutting Jeremy down lol. Can’t wait to see your video.
This was an excellent video!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Yeah, forget that "you weren't there" beef between Stark and Cap, including the not making a phone call when he had the chance part. Strange refusing to destroy *any* of the infinity stones because he didn't want to give up his ace against Dormamu doesn't get the attention it deserves.
Strange is the only hero in the MCU more arrogant than Iron Man or pre-worthy Thor.
thank you for this, i’m tired of people acting like this is inconsistent or not showing portraying the character. just another GREAT vid 🫡🔥
"BUt bIRDmAn" god I love your videos 🤣
Thank you for burning my eyes out with the all white screen about 3 minutes into this video.
Lol you’re welcome
Doctor Strange is one of those people that is such a genius that he has went back round to being dumb again. He’s too used to being the one holding all the cards and having the right answer to the point that now he goes with the first plan that pops in his head and just ASSUMES it’s going to work because he’s smart, and smart people totally have never had dumb ideas! Right?
Hey Birdman, what do you hope Marvel/Disney/MCU will announce at SDCC? I hope for two things.
1). Cast for Fantastic Four
2). More details on their project involving Mutants. (They haven't explicitly mentioned the X-Men group joining the MCU)
Those are both high on my list.
I'm also wondering WTF is up with Black Panther, as we have only a tiny amount of details on the sequel, and it comes out in less than 4 months now. No plot, no trailer, nothing. Maybe we get a trailer (and by we, I mean the attendees)
@@Th3Birdman I heard rumors that they're not recasting him. That would be a shame.
Aside from that, how's your day been? My room almost got flooded, lol, since there's a thunderstorm in my area.
I'm guessing you don't have to deal with that in Cali as much as others? 😂
Very perplexing video, also the fight between you and me last week on fan Friday night was really good! GG.
I completely forgot that comic book shops exist, this entire time I've just been reading comics from my local library or online lol.
hindsight is always 20/20 good breakdown, more of these please.
What drives me nuts the most about people hating on Strange is complaints about his powers and abilities. Basically people saying when did he learn such and such a spell we didn’t see he learn it or what kind of ability is that? Very good video about deep diving into Stranges characterization
I haven’t read a comic book in years however with the multiverse of madness now existing it shows that the comics are a different universe along side the MCU. So referring to the comics is more on brand than before
That Venom: Lethal Protector comic looks dope!
I love how NWH gave it a shoutout in the mid credits scene.
“And you thought Lethal Protector was a shit name!”
I would like to see more of these type of videos from you this was very good
My only inconsistency with dr strange is that he feels like he gets weaker and worse at fighting in each movie
Because he’s fighting stronger and stronger adversaries, with their growth being exponentially greater than his own growth.
He got Statued in No Way Home, so don’t even bring that up.
Well now he doesn’t have the time stone
What fight did Strange do his best in? If your answer is Strange vs Thanos, your idea of strength is off. It may be one of the best fights visually, but effectively, Strange did nothing against Thanos. He didn't kill him, he didn't damage him, he barely even shook him up. All he did was stall, and for a short time that ultimately led to their defeat.
Outside of Spidey in NWH (who Strange severly underestimated, I mean, he really thought he could just take the box from Spidey's hands), Strange shows his strength in every fight, even in the first and especially in MoM.
He could stop thanos withought the time stone if thanos didnt have the other stones in infinity war, spider man just beats strange with math. That was an inconsistency.
Well he was weak sauce in his first movie , than dope in infinity war then weak sauce in endgame.
that part near the beginning about how many futures/timelines/universes and why he stopped when he did was interesting. I hadn't thought of those terms. Clearly he didn't (or couldn't) search an infinite number of them, and most certainly did not view the one where the Illuminati defeated Thanos, or he would have found himself a BlackBolt asap.
well said sir.
Also Kevin already stated that what if it’s cannon yes it’s not the main MCU universe but it’s cannon
Meanwhile, in a smarter universe:
Wanda and Vision are making out in the hotel when a portal opens.
"Hi, I'm a wizard who can see the future. Earth's about to get attacked. Phase to the center of the Earth and wait there until we send you Thanos' coordinates, then pop up like a laser-mounted wack-a-mole."
These reasons are the exact reason he's one of my favorite MCU characters.
Can't out Argue th3Birdman 🐐
honestly you made such great points here, i love hearing you discuss films and would really like to see more of this series. though if i were to think of one thing i'm still thinking about it's the time loop solution. i heard before that the reason he couldn't just use the time loop thing on anyone else is because dormammu lives in a dimension without time, as he was initially confused by the loop until strange explained what time was to him and how the time loop worked, so if he used the same method against ebony maw it'd work, but since time already exists on earth he wouldn't notice anything and every time the loop restarts so does maw's memory of the loop. just something i was thinking about when watching the video, but otherwise fantastic video with very well-thought out points man.
We need more of these…
You bad for that Ezra bar 😂😂😂
I agree with your point.
🤷♂️.
If Stephen has such serious flaws, why did fate pick him out to be the Sorcerer Supreme? He could have been, like, 1st lieutenant to The Sorcerer Supreme. Why is he the greatest if he's...not always that great?
Don't get me wrong! Though I didn't really read the comics as a kid, I saw the drawings, the images, and I'll never forget this one moment with a very encouraging teacher who in retrospect I realize looked like Doctor Strange...
So for me Doctor Strange will always be a cherished figure. Great artwork in my day back in the mid 1970s when I was reading comics as a kid.
I'm just wondering, if he has these like tremendous flaws, why was he chosen to be supreme among sorcerers?
I think Charles Xavier sums it up best.
"Just because someone stumbles and loses their way, doesn't mean they're lost forever."
Despite his faults and missteps, he'll eventually come out on top.
Like in Multiverse of Madness for example, he had a huge hand in helping defeat Scarlet Witch by helping Chavez and convincing her she can control her powers, by not letting fear hold her back like it did with him before.
IMO there's validity to both arguements, but I'm leaning toward your arguement than the inconsistency one, but I also think different movies.
(Example: NWH contrasts with MOM, I know he lost the Time Stone and is at a disadvantage against Wanda, but he should have more power than Peter in NWH than he showed. Now I don't personally see him getting blitzed by Peter, but that is most definently up for debate as he is within the Mirror Dimension, it dosen't really make sense to me how he got bodied on his turf, but whatever.)
The reason he lost was because he was underestimating Peter. He thought he won at first but didn’t account for his Spider-Sense. He thinks that since Peter is a kid and he’s not much of a challenge and uses magic he THINK will suffice.
He was surprised when Peter was able to get keep the box away despite being separated from his body.
Against larger threats he will use more advanced spells.
Plus the final part was meant to show how another way to beat Strange is to outsmart him, which is the beauty of Peter’s intellect, the fact that he can think his way out of seemingly impossible problems.
I started watching your videos for the parodies but your let’s talk made me a fan
Strange's first scene is performing cowboy bullet removal from a brain, something all of his colleagues say is extremely dangerous. Strange does stuff his way, when he wants, how he wants without regard to consequences.
Thanos also tells Dr. Strange this when they finally squared up 1 on 1. Paraphrasing - he says all that magic and you didn't use your greatest one or something like that. Considering that because Strange saw the future, saw that particular path to victory, he failed to think about other ways to win in that moment. Once again, great video birdman!!!
People seem to forget that just because he had an arc and became a better person than he was at the start of his first movie does not mean that he loses all of his negative traits
And another explanation for the 14,000,605 moment is that those were all the possible futures that he could look at before he was overwhelmed and needed to shut it down (he did spaz out a bit when he snapped out of the spell). While he's smart, if he looked into infinity itself, he'd go crazy and wouldn't be of any use. This still means there were other ways to beat Thanos, but he just physically couldn't look further than he did.
He also might have even disregarded futures where he died (and couldn't be brought back) because he either believed there was no way for them to win without him, or he wasn't willing to permanently die to beat Thanos. Either way, his arrogance would be a factor in his decision making, which is consistent to his character
That ezra miller comment got me dying
This video was genuinely unnecessary given your points were clearly stated twice, but I'm a sucker for video essays on nerd shit, so I appreciate what was done here. Now let's watch all of THOSE people flat-out ignore it anyway and still have dumb shit to say. Great video, Bird.
But Birdman, this video is amazing
I still can't understand how is it possible to argue with birdman. Man drops facts and explanations way better than anything.
dude you just make me happy sometimes
You know.... I think that you're right
And I believe that (in MoM) Strange got a visible lecture on his behavior.... specifically his arrogance being the very thing that made him a destructive influence to his surroundings. I find the line: "You always had to be the one behind the knife" to be a perfect character call-out. Letting both audience and in universe players know why Strange was deemed to be a threat.
With Nightmare (I'm calling him this because that's probably the only version of him that would fit the MCU), we saw the damage he caused with him not considering the consequences of dream walking.... He caused an Incursion just by being like Wanda.... he wanted what he could never have. Strange Supreme did the same thing, but in a more contained space.... and all because he felt that he couldn't live without Christine Palmer.
More to the point. Stephen's natural affinity to the mystic arts and his drive to fix everything was, before Wanda came in and started casually dismembering the Illuminate, the most imminent threat to the Multiverse as a whole.
I see there’s a new thumbnail
Strange has never actually learned his lesson on misusing magic because he always solves It. Him being so confident imo is easily earned due to everything working out so why would strange consider the issues with what's he's doing if he thinks he can fix anything anyway
Damn, he made the point in the spiderman video, hammered it home in the response video, and then put another 17 screws to lock it in place in this one. impressive, bravo sir.
Well your opinion is always right and facts lord bird
You're the man, Birdman 🤘🏿
Had Wong been the Sorcerer Supreme from the get go, he would have probably done most if not everything you thought of, because Wong is a warrior, while Strange is a doctor. Two completely different mindsets. Strange thought that since he was able to defeat Dormammu, he could defeat the Black Order.
Except Wong was there and didn’t try to convince Strange to do any of those things
But, what I really wanna know is: how much does Strange remember about P.P. & the events in NWH? And what will happen to Strange's mind over time as he has to maintain that barrier between what he does remember and what he intended to forget? Will his mind erode like a CoC character? What would it take for his mind to break, the spell to drop, that barrier to collapse? And what happens if & when that occurs?
@@RenaldyCalixte Watch the movie again, pay attention to 2:01:00 - 2:02:07.
In the comics Strange steps down as the sorcerer supreme and willingly allows himself to be put in a stasis dimension with elder wizards who failed and died brutally from their arrogance to teach him how to work with others and to not bastardized magic spells (they showed a homage to this in the what if episode)
Loved the video and I find you're absolutely right about Strange not thinking things through, even with the amazing powers at his disposal.
Another option Strange had when facing Thanos was using the Time Gem to pull a DIO, freeze time, and then kill him a billion times over with like a billion magic knives, or a steam roller, or just cutting his head/arm off.
About the sling ring solution, in an interview with the russos brothers they said and I quote
“Thanos' skin is almost impenetrable, we don't know whether Doctor Strange had the capability to do it. If he failed to cut it on time, Thanos would still able to do the snap. Doctor Strange realized this issue during his millions of test runs.”
So cutting someone with a sling ring is not something doctor strange can just do to anyone and not worry about the chance it will succeed, because it doesn’t ignore conventional durability (as stupid as that might sound).
I don't find that interview to be explanative at all. When you're the writer, you must have definitive answers for these things, and this sounds to me like someone presented to them an idea that would have worked, and they came up with an answer on the spot, and a flimsy one at that.
Saying "we don't know" means "we didn't think of that".
But in-universe, Strange didn't even try. If the writers didn't know, he didn't either, which lends credence to my point there-- he didn't think of that.
Respectfully, there is also the point that Strange doesn't kill. This was also established in the first movie, and would still be an important factor in his actions in infinity war.
@@Th3Birdman I agree with this, yeah. A lot of the interviews I seen just feels like answers are being whipped out their asses.
Also gonna point out on the Sling Ring thing: they could have used it to cut off Thanos's arm while they had him pinned with Mantis. Even if the fight continues after that, Thanos has no way to know where the Gauntlet is if he beats the heroes on Titan, and he doesn't have the other Gems to give him the edge against Strange in a prolonged fight... not to mention the Gauntlet doesn't appear to have been designed with ambidexterity in mind.
@@HoodedSpidey mind providing a source for that?
“I worked retail for 7 years, this is music”.
Facts
What got me when i watched What If? T'Challa became a Starlord, and again when i watched Thor: L&T, was - why didn't the Avengers try to turn Thanos to the Light Side - convince him to use the gems to double the universes resources, or something similar. T'Challa did something like that in What If? and Thor persuaded Gorr to use his wish for good in T: L&T. The reason Why Not? is b/c Strange was being consistent.
I know i am late to the party but to be fair
9:50
Loki proves that free will doesnt truly exist until "He who remains" is killed so even if Strange chose another path or wasn't that prideful the TVA would have pruned that timeline till the Thanos gets timestone happened like it was "suppose to".
who knows maybe if Strange chose any other option he might have be taken from the MCU and he might be the star of an alternate "Loki" show and the MCU would have be pruned by the TVA anyways for deviating from the path "He who remains" had chosen.
No, no, no, no, no-- did you watch Loki?
The TVA was a sham organization. It was not concerned with pruning timelines that "weren't supposed to happen", I have NO idea why so many people continue to say this. It's like y'all didn't finish the series.
Kang was only interested in preventing timelines where other Kangs appeared. That's it, that's all, it had nothing to do with free will. Kang just knew what would happen because he's a time traveler.