Correcting Hammer Follow-Down on an 1873 Winchester
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2022
- In this episode, we'll show how to correct a hammer that follows the bolt down when cycling the action. Along the way, we'll show proper hammer notch and sear geometry. And as a bonus, we'll give a brief overview of a repair and reinforcement of a split stock on an 1890 Winchester.
I'm glad to see that the old rifles are still running. Thank you for taking care of those beautiful pieces of history.
Here I am wishing I owned the ranch next door, you would be an awesome neighbor!
Always enjoy your videos! I know it’s difficult making them while running a business so your efforts don’t go unappreciated. Thanks for bringing us another 27 minutes of gunsmith enjoyment!
My pleasure, James!
Tried to buy my grandpa’s .22 Win. Pump. Unfortunately he wouldn’t sell it. It was slated for one of my uncles so now one of my cousins has it. It was a nice shooter. Got my other grandpa’s 94 Win. In .25-35. It was made around 1912 I believe. It’s a nice shooter too. Very informative on both guns.
I hope your cousin appreciates the old Winchester. So many times, old guns go to family that don't appreciate them and they get sold and are lost to the family.
I really like that idea of having a carpet instead of leather or fabric in case you drop something it'll just stay there
Learned that from one of the best old-time gunsmiths in the business. It's all he would ever use for a gun mat.
After all the years that I enjoyed modern and antique military weapons, I have rediscovered all the civilian types from the 19th century. I really like the Henry up to the 76' centennial. Fun to build and work on.
I am an old guy. I like old winchesters and colts and enjoy your videos.
Glad you enjoy them, Ty! Thanks for watching
Always nice to learn about old guns
Great video. I used to have a Winchester just like the 22 you showed there. I still have a Rossi copy of it.
Thanks a bunch!
Thank You very much, Its truly a pleasure watching you resurrect the old classics.
You're very welcome, Wilber! Thanks for watching
Even loading for a modern Henry, getting the crimp correct & COL, case overall length is important. Thanks for your information, stay safe.
Thanks a bunch!
Excellent tutorial on sear/hammer notch geometry. Very much appreciated.
You're very welcome. Glad it was helpful!
Very interesting and informative video. I have a 1887 vintage 1873 so I am watching this with great interest. The one question I had about the cracked toggles I see you responded in an earlier comment. I have never opened the side plates on mine since everything seems to be functioning OK. Now I see its a good idea to open up for inspection
Some of those old 73's are really full of crud too. It's a good opportunity to clean them out and oil them up while you have the side plates off. Be careful with the side plate screw, they strip pretty easily.
It is a joy to watch a true professional ply his skills for all to see. I am amazed. Thank you for the video.
You are very welcome, Doug!
Best explanation of trigger hammer geometry I have seen, Most modern firearms are hardened through and through, but as you show, lots of older guns had case hardening and need to be rehardened if you grind thru that surface. Great work on the stock, always harder when you have to correct failed repairs.
Much appreciated!
Really fine, impressive work. Always a joy to watch a craftsman at work. Man you have some tooling in that shop!
Nice work. Love the old lever guns. Have a 1873 on my bucket list. Probably more dream than plan, but you never know. Thanks again for sharing.
You bet! Thanks for watching, Pat
May your dreams come true
👍 nice job on the stock repair. I’ve done a few and it’s pretty complicated to be the second one in and get a clean result! That repair should last forever. Nice work.
Fantastic work! It is such apleasure to see an honest and a true craftsmen at work. Being a crazy '73 fan I enjoyed this video very much. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skills.
Also must say, just watch your history tour on your piece of God's Country! That was special ! Absolutely magnificent place with fascinating history ! Again, thanks for sharing. Love it !
You're very welcome!
I have a saddle ring carbin in 44-40 it shoots great I restored the rifle . Thanks for all your help your channel is great.
It was made in 1887.
Thanks for the informative video, it is good to see that there are still true craftsmen out there.
Much appreciated, Richard!
Another great instructional video. Beyond my capabilities but fascinating to watch. Thanks for all your efforts with your viewers in mind Mark. Until next time.
You're Welcome, Dogbone!
That’s why with these old guns, it’s typically to load your own ammo for them as the factory stuff may or may not run good through them. Great video Sir! 👍👍
I miss having the time to reload these days.
This stuff is priceless.
By far the best channel on UA-cam.
Thanks a bunch, Kevin! I appreciate the compliment
Another informative video! Thanks again and that’s a beautiful background there. 🤠👍🏼
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
That was awesome mate I really enjoyed that video. A mate of mine who’s now approaching 90 was a carriage builder in QGR Queensland government railway and he had access to a lot of unusual machinery at work where over the years he repaired and modified many firearms ( foreigners) and he did some work at home as well . Progressively over the years I saw a lot of his work which fascinated me considering myself being a qualified cabinetmaker / joiner...Great content , keep up the good work 👍🇦🇺
Thanks so much, Trev!
You just keep getting better and better in your work. Love to watch the progression.
Thank you very much, Jeffrey!
Always fun watching these videos on these wonderful old Winchester rifles. Having restored my dad's Model 1890 a few years back added to the significance of this one. His is chambered for the little gallery .22 Short, makes it a fun backyard plinker. Thank you again for taking the time out to makes these so ever increasing videos.
Love the stock repair seems to be quite a delicate operation. Thanks!
Great video on both sear and hammer repair and also stock repair. The old Winchester pumps are some of my favorite 22s to shoot. Ive got a 1907 made 1906 Winchester chambered in 22 short only. Its still a great little tac driver. It has a Beach folding front sight that may have been added on way back in the day. Great stuff Mark.
Great video. Love seeing those old working guns get a refresh!
Thanks a bunch!
Man oh man, you hit it out of the park, each time I thought of something like the white board or a close up bang you included it all. Just love this kind of detail about your work. IBITT.
Thanks for your work.
You're very welcome, Frank! Thanks for all your support
I really enjoy seeing old Winchesters and how they work thanks for the great video.
You're quite welcome, Flint!
Great video, always great to see your repair techniques. I managed to pick up a large amount of needy firearms before I retired and I appreciate every tip I can collect to help me bring them back to operating condition. Thanks for sharing.
Glad it helps, Ken!
Great job Mark. Always Informative and entertaining. Can't wait for you to look at the old 30-30. Maybe this spring when I'm over. Take care.
Looking forward to it, Jim!
I have a friend with an old Winchester Simi-Auto in a 351 Winchester it is a blast to shoot
I really like those old 1907's. I enjoy shooting mine. I think they're one of the most under-appreciated of all the Winchesters. It was a rifle far ahead of its time. Will do an episode on them soon
I learn something new every time, thanks Mark!
My pleasure!
Thanks for the great video as always!
My pleasure!
Man The. Old west guns are just another level of firearms there just The best and The nicest looking for me 😁👍
I definitely have to agree, Edwin!
@@thecinnabar8442 👍
Excellent Repairs Mark 😊😊😊😊😀😀😀👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Another excellent video. I sure enjoy watching each and everyone you take the time to make and post. Thank you for all your hard work!!
My pleasure, Dave! Glad you like 'em.
Very good explanation on this operation.
Ranch looks great with a layer of snow! That little 1890 looks great. Was hoping you were gunna upload a video soon. Glad to have you back
Thanks! I always think I'm going to post more consistently, but life keeps getting in the way. :D Thanks for watching the channel.
Thats nice work what you do with the good old western firearms! Maybe you could show a little bit more about the landscape and more of your life besides gunsmithing? Thanks for your content. Greetings from bavaria germany
We may be doing more of that soon.
ALWAYS.........GREAT VIDEOS. Best wishes from Minnesota.
Very useful information. Looking forward to your next projects.
Thanks. Keep an eye out for some pretty good stuff on the way.
Thank you. Great episode. Superb repairs.
Thanks a bunch, Michael!
Really enjoyed this episode again! 👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸
Another great informative video. Thanks for sharing!
You're very welcome, Jim!
You are my favorite gun channel, excellent!
Thanks, I really appreciate your support Angelus!
Those 2 cartridges were very popular among farm and ranch folks that were not actively pursuing big game. My Dad said he rarely saw .38-40 or .44-40 73s or 92s in Missouri in the 1930s. He did see a lot of .25-20 and .32-20 guns though. And I believe 90s in .22 WRF were not uncommon. The 06 and 62 however were pretty common. He also said .22 short was the hands down favorite for most people chasing squirrels and rabbits at that time. Cheapest thing you could shoot beyond a bean flipper (sling shot). Shorts were 15 cents a box pre WWII and some kids had a hard time with scraping that up. That's when they went hunting with their bean flipper (sling shot).
Thanks for sharing, John! I love hearing about how these old guns (and sling shots) were used in their heyday.
The Marlin 336 and derivatives have a brilliant safety feature. Firing pin is not brought into potential primer strike until bolt lock bar is in locked mode.
I hunted with a Savage model 99 in 30/30 Winchester with long barrel and tapered fore end and crescent butt stock. My brother hunted with Winchester model 95 carbine in.30 army.
Both were beautiful rifles.
My wife’s grandfather got a huge bull elk with his Savage 99 in .303 Savage chambering.
I love those old guns and calibers. They were totally capable in the hands of good marksmen.
The rotary magazine of the 99 could accommodate spire points as well as the box magazine of the 95.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Bill! I was just working on a Savage 99 TD in 303 yesterday. Great lever guns.
Great video, always enjoy your videos and knowledge
Thanks Joe! Glad you liked it.
Really enjoy your knowledge of the old Winchester’s!
Thanks Larry!
Hi thanks for the video. Enjoyed as always.
You're very welcome, Gary!
Another great video Mark. Very well done.
Thanks Mark!
I recently picked up an Uberti copy of a 1873 Winchester that was used for Cowboy Action shooting, and the gun won't stay at half cock, so I looked into it, thinking it needs a new hammer. What it looks like is that the previous owner left the hammer alone, I don't see any grinding there, what I see is that the owner took a fair amount of metal off the face of the sear and thinned it a lot and what happens is if you pull the hammer back very slowly it will stay at half cock but not by much. I also think they replaced the springs with lighter springs. One of the nice things about the 1873's and even the Uberti made copies to a point, they're easy to get in and work on for the most part as long as you need what needs replacing.
I've repaired a Rem 700 stock and guitar headstocks using the same technique however I like the syringe method a lot! Had to glue up a table leg the other day and that would have been handy.
A syringe with a needle that screws on works best. The epoxy is thick enough that it tries to push off the needles that press fit on a syringe.
@@thecinnabar8442 thanks for the reply!
Always learn something new. Thanks.
Glad to hear it!
THANK YOU SIR FOR THE RIDE
I just found your channel! Love your videos! Definitely a goal to have your knowledge! Awesome work!👍
Thanks a bunch. Welcome aboard!
Interesting show. Thank you
another great and instructional video
Thanks John!
great job. thanks for the education!
Good video my friend. Happy new years too
Thanks Traves! Happy New Year to you and yours.
Interesting, keep up the good work
Thanks a bunch, Jeremy!
The rifle on the back wall 😍 in the shop.
Good stuff Mark!
Thanks Bill!
Great video as usual
Thanks, Richard!
Great video!👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸
Thanks Jeffry!
So now I have loaded about 250 rounds of black powder for this .32-20 and shot them all. I know for a fact now that black powder loads solve some reloading head aches. Solves bullet set back shown in the video. When loading smokeless loads I had crimp the dickens on that thin case mouth or I had bullet set back and jams plus the ultra tight crimp will start splitting the case mouths after about 3 loadings. Black powder loads actually are easy to clean in my 1873 with it's smooth chamber powder fouling never reaches past the case shoulder
Glad the black powder is working for you. I've found the same thing about the cleanup in black powder cartridge guns. Not much more difficult than cleaning up after shooting smokeless.
Thank you, good job.
You're very welcome, Tom!
Would like to see you barrel sleeve a 73. Thanks again.
Great vid. It is a common practice for Cowboy Action shooters to lighten up the trigger on 1873s. Some of these are way too light for my comfort. Therefore, even modern reproductions should be checked for safety. Some CAS side x sides (shotguns) are lightened up to the point where they double when the first barrel is fired. Also check lightened up CAS single action revolvers. The problem comes where the shooter does not know how light the trigger pull is.
CAS is certainly fun to watch, but I'm not a fan of the modifications to the guns, either.
Great video! I am a new sub... I am looking forward to watching your channel grow
Welcome aboard! Hope you enjoy the rest of the channel
hi, to you mr cinnabar !!!
good video congratulations, even good work !!!
but i suggest to you a new solution to fixing the broken toggles, change them , and you make a new pairs of toggles, two pair integral toggles, make two front toggles integral milled them from one piece of steel, the some thing for the rear toggles, make two integral toggles from one piece of steel, and then modified their hinge with a bit more steel in their surface such that they are more strong
so long, best gunsmith ... 😉
Thanks Antonino! Fortunately, there are reproduction toggle links available for the 1873 that cost less than I can make them, so I put a set them in this rifle. I don't think any links are made for the 1866 or 1876, so they either have to be repaired or made. Making one set is extremely time-consuming. When I get the time, I would like to set up and make several sets of each to have on hand. Thanks for watching and commenting.
The only problem I have with these really old Winchesters and Marlins is finding ammo for them. That's why most of the lever guns in my collection are of modern calibers, 357mag, 45colt, 44mag and 30-30, even some of these calibers can be difficult to find at times.
Especially hard to find ammo in these times. Kind of forces a guy to start reloading.
With the old guns reloading is the only way to go. Even so, it can be a challenge to make suitable ammunition. The toughest part can be finding brass. Some can be formed from more common brass. A good example is 45-60 that can be easily made from 45-70. A last resort is Rocky Mountain Cartridge. They can custom make almost anything but they’re very expensive. Accurate Molds custom makes bullet molds to your dimensions. Of course that requires slugging the barrel. If you shoot an old gun, be sure you know the pressure limits of it. Many were not designed to handle heavy smokeless loads.
Right on!
Thank you.👍
You're welcome 👍
I saw a 92 in .25-20 that had hammer follow down. Wasn't sure way back when where the wear problem was. If you manually cocked the hammer it had no problem staying in the full cock position. Always thought it was the bottom of the bolt or hammer top being worn down so much that it just wasn't pushing it back far enough to engage the notch.
Good point, John! I should have mentioned that hammer fall down can also be caused by the hammer not being rotated far enough for the sear to fall into the hammer notch. I have another 1890 in the shop now that has so much slop in the bolt that it won't cock the hammer, but you can push down on the back of the bolt and cock it.
Another excellent vid. Must ask, where's the 86s? I've had a few & some damn nice ones but my fav, although not so highly desirable, is a 70% blue 33wcf configured with a crescent butt & full mag.
Just had one come in the shop with feeding issues. I'll check it out and see if it'd make an interesting episode. JB designed 'em too good and I don't get many in to work on. :)
Thanks for the video. I just wonder how many times these old guns have been shot.
Official count - a lot. 😀
I’ve Got a Couple 1890’s Mark One Of Them I Would Like To Have You Install a 22 liner In The Barrel Its Now Almost a Smooth Bore It Was Made In 1905 😊
I'd be happy to, Chris.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks Mark 😀
Interesting
Fantastic video! As you were talking about the stock repair several questions came to mind. You answered most of them. There's only one that I have left. I've been teaching music for over 30 years and I've seen a handful of times when old epoxy had to be "cut" out of the inside of a repair in order to close a crack on the outside of a wooden instrument. Would there ever be a time when that would be appropriate during a stock repair?
Every repair is different and has to be approached with not only how to make them stick, but how to make sure they stay stuck. I have another 1890 in the shop that someone epoxied a crack in the wrist similar to the one I did in the video, but they didn't get it tight. Now it's loose on the tangs. I'll have to cut out the repair and then make a shim just the right thickness to glue it back and fit the tangs properly.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thank you for the follow up!
With the carrier jamb can you maybe explain how the 1873 in 38/357 can handle the different lenghts. I do have to insure the 38 meet a specific length to feed right but still shorter than a 357.
Great question, Galen! Remember, I deal with original Winchesters that didn't need to be equipped for slightly different length cartridges like 38sp/357mag in reproductions. I suspect the reproductions have a slightly different profile on the front of the carrier to push a case head forward that may protrude onto the front of the carrier. Even then, I'm sure you've found there is a minimum OAL that will feed correctly. In the video, the bullet was pushed back into the case about .200" and there was no chance for it to feed without jamming.
Would you please consider a video reviewing the Timberluxe product?
I'll do a stock finishing episode at some point using Timberluxe. It's good stuff.
This is exactly the same as when I tune my Ithaca shotgun triggers ,
I subscribed
Thanks for subbing. Hope you enjoy the channel.
Hello to you at cinnabar. I was wondering if you could do a video on what to look for when buying a 100 plus year old Winchester lever action. Please.
That’s a great idea! Look for an episode on that topic in the future.
Thank you. I'm in the market for a 73 Winchester that is a shooter.
I have one of those old Winchester pump 22's with a worn extractor. Do you have any advice for it's repair?
The extractors are reproduced now. You should be able to find one with an internet search. They're pretty easy to replace if you're mechanically inclined.
Hey love your videos i was wondering if you ever do any work an the old savage lever actions i cant seem to get mine to load and cycle properly any help would be awesome
I've worked on a few Savages, but don't consider myself an authority on them.
Where you get the adage "weak link" from...
. these types of rifles.
How you fix cracked links? Did Winchester make any of the 73’s that one could use smokeless powder in back in 1900? ,
To repair them, they have to be welded and machined. I've done it several times, but there are replacement links made for the 1873 that are good quality. All 1873's can be fired with smokeless powder, but the loads must be light to approximate the pressures of black powder loads.
what are you useing for harding?? looks like water , and steel under 35/40Rc point wont harden, did you have a slurry when you quenched?
Hammers are made of mild steel. You must use a surface or case hardening process to infuse carbon into the outer layer of steel to case harden it for a few thousandths depth. Typically, water quench is used when surface hardening mild steels.
@@thecinnabar8442 ok , so you just edited the vid to the final quench................. ,Im versed in casment hardening
thank you for the reply
Just wondering if Miroku or Uberti parts will work in the original. I have a ‘73 musket but it works fine.
I really like my 73 musket. I did an episode with it a while back. I haven't tried to use any parts from the aftermarket 73's, but most of the Winchester parts are reproduced and available online.
@@thecinnabar8442 , I recently acquired a Winchester high wall Schuetzen in 32-40 with an A5 scope in near mint condition made around 1915. The barrel is marked “Especially for smokeless powder” I was wondering if you would have any idea how to reload for it or what original smokeless 32-40 ammo was used in it.
@@davidgardner863That sounds like a wonderful rifle, David! 32-40 isn't a caliber I've loaded. I would do an internet search to try to find load info for it. Have a great time shooting it.
Is annealing needed after the heat treat?
Not when surface hardening mild steel. Annealing or tempering is needed after heat treating high carbon, hardenable steels. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I have a 1969 version of the Winchester 1894 in 44 mag. My problem is that when the bullet is pushed forward by the bolt face ( the ejector makes the contact and pushes ) the rim of the shell casing does not slide up under the extractor claw! Instead of the shell rim getting slid up under the extractor claw and seated properly against the bolt face, the shell is pushed into the chamber by the bolt face and the the extractor claw must jump/ride up over the shell rim as the lever seats the locking bolt. Could the ejector be part of the problem? I am having a devil of a time figuring it out.
It's really hard to diagnose feeding issues without seeing it in person. If I understand it, the extractor is pushing the cartridge into the chamber and then snapping over the rim as the bolt closes. If that's it, what problem is it causing? Is it jamming or not feeding smoothly?
@@thecinnabar8442 The extractor, by having to snap up over the shell rim mars and scrapes the rim. The rifle and action are basically unused because the previous owner must have been dis-satisfied with this also! everything works and feeds properly except for tearing up the shell casing rim on the spent cartridge. I reload so the casings are as valuable as the bullet. Is the extractor supposed to do this? Thanks for any input...nothin' like having a real cowboy give you advise!
Got it! It does sound like the extractor is far too stiff if it's causing that kind of damage to the casing. If you're comfortable with working on your guns, you may try ordering a new extractor. There are several companies that sell extractors for 1894's. That would probably be the cheapest and easiest fix. If that doesn't work or you're not comfortable with working on it, then I suggest taking it to a gunsmith. It should be a relatively easy fix for a gunsmith to lighten the tension on the extractor. Good luck!
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks, and Happy Trails.
Cinnabar, do you need to temper that notch after you harden it?
When surface hardening mild steel, it isn't necessary to temper after the quench.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thanks.
Where do you get your 38/40 ammo
It’s darned hard to find right now. I had quite a bit of it stockpiled when the ammo shortage hit.