INFINITE CONTENT LOOP HACK Hahaha even if we disagree nothin but love brotha. Could have defended you from shill allegations better than I have, we both know you aren't. Appreciate all you've done for me and the scene, don't want any hate thrown your way in my name
I’m glad at least some content creators are still able to be adults. Too many people actually get so worked up and tie their own self worth into how many people online disagree/agree with them. W Samito response
Fredo failed to talk about the fact that making heroes like roadhog and Winston less counterable by certain things effects other heroes negatively in a way that’s unhealthy for the game… I think the thing that 6 v 6 players argue for is to attack the designs of the heroes and not just the sheer numbers of them. Like sure you can force hot to work by bumping his numbers up until he does, but that doesn’t mean it’s healthy or balanced. Overwatch 2 is a much more numbers focused game which makes it feel extremely one dimensional and flavor of the month. 5 v 5 can never organically solve the counter swap problem, if you buff Dva’s numbers so she doesn’t get countered by Zarya it just means she counters what she countered even more, that’s not better, just different, which is why Tank still feels miserable and is the least played role, 5 v 5 doesn’t improve the tank experience, it just reduces the amount of tank players needed. Also the “people don’t like shooting shields, so make it so there’s less tanks” argument is weird to me, if people don’t like shooting shields, then just rework tanks so there’s less shields? This is why so many people say that 6 v 6 never got the chance to be properly balanced, it never got the care or attention that it needed. Another point that confused me was him saying “comps were only maximized to their skill ceiling at high rank” then saying that tank synergies were effecting all ranks (at least that’s what it seemed like he was saying) when is most ranks tanks rarely chose to synergies but they didn’t need to very often because neither did the other team, when I first started playing in OW1 I was gold and had to climb to diamond and very rarely did I feel like it was the tanks that were the problem unless it was hog hooking and one shotting me. Point is I don’t think it’s fair to call wanting 6 v 6 back a “utopian ideal” when the main problems with the game were never addressed by that balance team, so any problems stemming from them never had the chance to be solved, and with a more active and effective balance team, the game could be more enjoyable for everyone and it would move away from this weird constant power shift where the devs try and find a sweet spot that doesn’t exist, because using numbers to make big changes will always have major positive and negative ramifications
This is so true. I think the reason for going to 5v5 was so they never had to address things like Brig inspire or Bap immo. Sure they’re less effective in 5v5, but they’re still bad mechanics. I thought 5v5 was gonna be a DPS playground but the higher rank I get (mid masters-GM5 range) the more guranteed matchups feel and DPS can feel completely cosmetic yet again. There’s also even more frustrating support abilities and gigatanks that are un-duelable. What is the point of this format then? Let’s have the deep, nuanced, team oriented game (6v6) and just reconsider the AOE healing, immortalities, and bloated kits. They already addressed shields/CC.
@@GraphiteBlimp27 yup. It really seems like Fredo is conflating us wanting 6 v 6 back with wanting OW1 back, when it’s more like we want 6 v 6 back, with hero reworks like heroes are getting in OW2.
"making heroes like roadhog and Winston less counterable by certain things effects other heroes negatively in a way that’s unhealthy for the game" Exactly. When the devs know each team has two tanks, they can make more distinct tank designs and make them have large weaknesses that are supplemented with a second tank. But 5v5 ruins that. Imagine if you had only one DPS per team. Every DPS character would have to be a flexible god that can handle most situations. That's what they did to tank in OW2. Same goes for a 1-3-1 with only one healer. Healers would have to be so OP for that to work. This is the game design problem Freedo is frankly ignoring. It's the core of the issue. Queue times are simply a QoL thing. This is the core of how the actual game functions.
@@rusty4265 yup, that’s why it frustrates me so much when he presents the OW2 tank changes as an objective success because of their pick and winrate smh
He’s always been the black sheep, the outcast, the pitiful lost child in the OW scene, it’s just most people were happy with the actual game so Freelo was easily ignorable, he still is now but it’s more fun to clown on him than to actually play Dogwaterwatch2
Im frustrated. I like both YourOverwatch and Samito. I played 6v6 and always loved it, even when it got a bit stale, the drive to hit the skill ceiling was so rewarding and the game was so fun with friends. Ive played 5v5, was hesitant of it, but still enjoyed it for awhile, just not nearly as long as Overwatch 1. The gameplay loop may be more balanced in 5v5 and queue times better, but 6v6 was just more fun and rewarding for trying the game,. It let you choose to either settle into a rank and just enjoy the chaotic game, or choose to get really good at a hero with the high skill ceiling. The core of the 6v6 v 5v5 debate to me is fun and teamwork(making friends). 6v6 may have been harder to learn and punishing, but it made up for it in fun factor. Synergiezing in 6v6, while it did cause metas that where staler at times, still create a fun atmosphere to work together as a team and make friends. (Plus the current system has may more balance updates so stale tank metas would be swapped faster.) Few points I want to cover from the video. (I want to start by saying Freedo, Ive loved your videos and love your passion for OW and making content, I still think these points are important to say.) Its Not Emotions Most 6v6 enjoyers are not clouded by emotions or nostogia, those players left the game ages ago. Those that are left have been playing 5v5 every week and love this game dearly. I want the best for this game and after spending time looking at both sides, still think 6v6 is healthier for the game. Saying that 6v6 enjoyers are clouded by their emotions is completely unfair to their take and opinion of the game. Stop Speaking for the Lower Ranks Ive started notice that Freedo likes to speak for the Medal Ranks, saying to everyone how that they like 5v5 better. This isn't fair because as a Plat Diamond players, Ive haven't felt that's the case with the game. I did not start playing overwatch for the shooter element, I came to it to get away from it and playa team based, positional game.Players will have Freedo's sentiment when it comes to 5v5, but you cant make blanket statements for everyone. To conclude this, Im tired of players who want 6v6 back getting pushed around and dismissed. The title you used, the way you talked about lower ranks preferred way to play and how you gloss over players want for 6v6 because of nostogia or rose tinted glass are not fair to people who actually just want a version of the game back that was more fun, period. Thanks for all the time you put into this video, there are a lot of good points going both ways, I just think the way you go about it not good at all. You cant be putting Samito down for his actions if you are willing to do the same, sorry.
Some logical fallacies that may be present in this video (some of these are debatable): - Ad-Homimen: People support 6v6 because they are delusional flat eathers. - False Dilemma: It's either 6v6 like in OW1 or 5v5, while ignoring other options such as 6v6 but balanced differently than it was in OW1. - Equivocation: Selectively using the concepts of the OW "community" or "player base" to refer to either the top tier of players or the entirety of the player base, depending on which suits your argument at any given time. - Straw Man: You claimed to "Steel Man" the 6v6 position, but you left out arguments and evidence that could have made the 6v6 position look stronger. - Poisoning the Well: At the start of your argument, repeatedly framing the 6v6 position as equivalent to flat earth. - Appeal to Authority: Just trust the devs. - Affirming the Consequent: If the 6v6 format worked, we wouldn't have had the problems we saw in OW1. We had problems in OW1, therefore the 6v6 format doesn't work (while ignoring that there were causes other than the format). - Statistical Fallacy: Misuse of the concept of an outlier. Saying "The October 2020 patch was great, lets go back to that" is not the same as saying "Lets focus on a data point at the far end of the Bell Curve." Also, sometimes outliers are actually important (see "Accident" below). - Cum hoc ergo propter hoc: 6v6 and OW1 problems are correlated, therefore the OW1 problems were caused by the 6v6 format. - Fallacy of the Single Cause: The 6v6 format caused the problems in OW1 (while ignoring or not adequately emphasizing the role that the devs / balance team played in it). - Accident: Just ignore the October 2020 patch. - Cherry Picking: Only citing the evidence that supports your arguments while ignoring or dismissing counter-evidence and arguments. - Historical Fallacy: The problems with OW1 were because of the 6v6 format (while ignoring other causes for the problems with OW1). - False Equivalence: 6v6 in OW2 would be the same / have the same problems as 6v6 in OW1 (not necessarily true). - Incomplete Comparison: As a result of cherry picking evidence and the arguments you responded to, you fail to truly "steel man" the 6v6 argument. - Kettle Logic: Supporting your position with inconsistent arguments, such as "Tank duos were oppressive..." and "most players didn't play the meta" (ie, most players didn't bother with coordinating tank duos). - Nirvana Fallacy: Rejecting arguments about how 6v6 could work, because it may cause other problems. - Package Deal: 6v6 in OW1 would be similar to 6v6 in OW2 (despite the fact that the game is being balanced differently now). - Retrospective Determinism: OW1 had problems with the 6v6 format, therefore the 6v6 format made those problems inevitable. - Psychologist's Fallacy: Presupposing your own objectivity. (ie, the idea of "My arguments are objective and free of fallacies"). - Special Pleading: The October 2020 patch was good, but it doesn't count. - Inductive Fallacy: Your argument does not support your conclusion as strongly as you claim it does.
Ad hominem requires the insult to BE the argument. Ignoring evidence is never good, the insult on top is NOT the argument. Sam literally says in his video "maybe the 2x better queue times are from plat 30 seconds from a minute?" This is some flat earth ignorance on how math works. The global average is 2x better, thats just how math works. His lack of undestanding the evidence is what makes the point a flat earther, its not a smear. False dilemma. you're straw manning pretty hard here, my point is that balance is irrelvant to tank popularity, as we've seen in 8 years of evidence, bar 1 mo at top 3%. Funny how you fallacy while trying to apply a fallacy, interesting move. Equivocation. Cition needed. Not sure you know what this word means. In fact, this is just littered with straw man, dang its really hard to read you reword my POV so badly for so much of this. Did you even try to STEEL man my position whatsoever? Surely you know why that, and avoiding straw man is - because you definately didn't google a list of informal fallacies you didn't really understand and just copy paste straw man misrepresentations of your version of my points. So much time to type this, and so much misrepresentation. Why spend your time this way?
@@YourOverwatch dude this was not hard to look up definitions, he doesn’t care about your takes. Your ability to refute your ideas is oppressive and not based in logic. Like these replies you do 2 weeks later and yet you still get barely any likes on replies. The misspelling and clear lack of planning with your responses it’s a microcosm of much bigger issues that are most likely affecting your personal life.
How can you say he's saying 'just trust the devs' when it's pretty clear he thinks the devs are full of themselves. Please stop thinking AP English debate terms are always correct
@@YourOverwatch Hey Freedo, thank you for responding. 1. It wasn't my intention to straw-man your argument and if I did that, I apologize. I was just trying to be concise. Also, I think in my initial comment, I could have been more thoughtful and respectful. So I apologize for that. 2. You make good points about the three fallacies you mentioned. What about the other 19? If you make a video in which you accuse people of using fallacious arguments while claiming that you don't commit fallacies, you better make sure that your argument is bullet proof, which it isn't. I pointed out several problems with your argument, as did Samito, as did other people. 3. Ad Hominem: Fair point. The insult is not the argument. I'm wrong there. But I have to ask why use insults at all? You could have made the argument without being insulting and condescending. So why not just be respectful? 4. False Dilemma: My point was that it really sounds like you're presenting "Tank queues & 6v6 as it was in OW1" vs "5v5 as it is in OW2" as if there aren't other options. Though I could be wrong. 5. Equivocation: You're right on this one. I misused the term "Equivocation." So instead, see Kettle Logic. 6. It didn't take "so much time" to write that comment. It took about 10 minutes for me to write down my list and about 5 minutes to look up the names of some of the fallacies. 7. You said some of the arguments 6v6 folks make are "as unfounded and easily disproven as statements made by flat earth." You go on to talk a about the psychology motivating flat earthers and end up making a comparison between flat earth and 6v6, you say that 6v6 folks can be blinded by their ego, etc. That is way beyond what you said in your comment about how the flat earth stuff was simply in reference to Samito not understanding evidence. This sounds a bit like a Motte-and-Bailey Fallacy. Honestly, I'm a fan of yours. I have been since I started playing OW years ago. It's a bummer to see you spend so much energy insulting people, being condescending, and failing to really engage with the other side's arguments. It feels like your video was made for folks who already agree with you, rather than to persuade people who disagree.
who remembers when freedo said he loves the game when its counter swapping instead of having the game being right in ur hands and making the best plays with any character and winning that game
@@YourOverwatch look at a video by raider talking about OW2 problems. 10:14 on the dot. He references a 2 month old video "The Great March Debate". I would love to see your response 🤡
@@YourOverwatch The Great March Debate. Referenced in a certain vid that apparently keeps getting this reply deleted :) Edit: I saw everyone replying and decided to be petty and thorough. The Great March Debate 1:32:20
@@YourOverwatch You have expressed several times that you like counter swapping as a mechanic which is killing the game right now, i dont know about that second part, but you do support the mechanic that is irritating players, that has made gameplay styles dissapear and got gameplay loops horrible and boring accross the board.
I suggest EVERYONE. I MEAN EVERYONE here to go watch Samito’s reaction to this video because he just completely disproved freedo’s points. Seriously this dude is not real. I am CONVINCED he does not play the same game as us. All the things about freedo lile how condescending he is. How contradicting he is. Even him belittling and being rude to the casual player base and SAMITO and trying to mass gaslight the casual community. I mean everyone in both video’s comments have said all that and what’s said is said but please watch Samito’s reaction to it. But holy, I cannot even believe what I watched. Thank god Samito exists to counteract such blatant lies
5v5 is our reality. Maybe OW1 would have found a better meta at the balancing pace of OW2; we'll never know but the problems spoken to in this video were real for a long time.
@@MrGrreatness I'm confused by this whole metaphor... are you 5v5ers insinuating that you guys believe the earth was flat an it can be historically proven? This whole rally cry you copium addicts came up with is the most "~le~Reddit I r 5000iq" crap tier thing I've heard in awhile.
@@sparquisdesade "Me call you Flat-Earther bc me think you dumb-dumb like them" is really all it amounts to, these guys really think they're clever too lol
Nothing makes me more happy then seeing freedo get destroyed and dismantled by the comments for his OUTRAGEOUS and GARBAGE takes. Maybe gsraider was right…
Played since launch as an Off tank main. The role got nuked in OW2 for 5v5. Tried playing it, and it felt HORRIBLE. I miss the Rein/Zarya team ups, and the Winston-DVA dives which are my favorite. I can't even play with my Main Tank friends anymore.
The 5v5 side is just never going to be correct. There is no world in which completely changing the format of a game that had been around for a near-decade, something that COMPLETELY changes the game and the way it is played, is a good idea. Like imagine if I went to R6: Siege and was like "you know what, this game isn't exactly to my liking, how about we add overshields to all the operators, remove sprinting, make cameras indestructible, remove an entire operator from the team, and add a minimap that shows everyone's location. Oh yeah, and let's add some new operators that make the other ones completely obsolete, and fuck with the ones that have already been around for years!" like yeah, people would be rightfully pissed for having their game fucked with so why are things different when it comes to OW?
Also I really struggle to understand why the 5v5 side is so willing to die on the hill that 5v5 is better for the game; like what is the end-game here, to just keep going until the game inevitably implodes on itself? Like what is the actual worst that could happen from reverting back to 6v6? Having to wait slightly longer for a game? Needing to use your brain more to win? The devs actually having to do their jobs and reverting the shit changes that they created? Please, just give me one solid good reason why keeping things the way they are now is better for the game.
What’s pretty funny to me is Jeff kaplans original team even stated they tried 5v5 and 7v7 internally when developing OW1 and found that 6v6 was the only one that felt right. They made a GOTY title that revolutionized the industry but now we’re acting like this new dev team knows better with 5v5. OW1 had its issues but I’ll take them any day over another season of this OW2 dumpster fire.
They also never expected multiple tanks to get picked, also didn't care to design the game with any competitive integrity whatsoever. It was designed to maximize hero fantasy, not competitive balance, which is why it launched with 4 roles, symmetra being a support and the "new content" they added was to fix the Dive era when supports were the target, is make them giga powerful like Valk 1.0 and Brig. EXTREMELY selective to pluck out the small sliver of their philosphy that supports your claim, this would be called confirmation bias. The way they played the game then, is entirely different than the communities expectations years later.
@@YourOverwatchSo I have one simple question I really hope you get to answer. Do you have more or less fun in ow2 than you had in ow1 and what role do you play most?
Just because the original team tested out 5v5 and 7v7 said that they didn’t work doesn’t mean it’s true. They had very little data and also very little heroes at the time.
I actually was excited for 5v5 initially. I no longer had to rely on a second tank to help me, especially in dive comps, but now? I'd much prefer having a literal monkey as my 2nd tank in 6v6 than having to deal with counterswap simulator in 5v5. You could always make adjustments for bad players on your team, but you can never adjust for constant counterpicking in the tank role. Best thing you can do is hope they stick to a mirror or you counterpick until you win. Tank is no where near as skillful as it once was and it is way harder to carry games as well due to being constantly looked at and countered. You can never tell me that 5v5 is better for tank. You just can't. It may be better for DPS and Support players (although, I'd argue exchanges between tanks and DPS are boring af and lack any sort of depth compared to 6v6). DPS get their queue times, which is great. Supports are more fun to play due to people finally realizing you could actually be more engaged in fights instead of just heal botting. That's about it for 5v5. That's why I swapped off tank to DPS. Tank is sort of 1 dimensional, boring and outright frustrating to play, whereas DPS and Support has way more play making potential on their own and can easily carry games if they're good enough. I love tanks, at least 6v6 tanks. They felt so much better to fight, to fight as, were actually really punishable and were more skillful as a result. I climbed through the ranks playing tanks. I went from Plat to low Masters playing tank in open queue and then when role queue came out, I eventually climbed up to GM. I peaked all the way to 4399 SR playing characters like Winston, Reinhardt and Zarya when they were good. It was way more fun than it is now. Were there problems? Of course, Double Shield was a major issue, but it was a balance issue, not a format issue. There was also the issue of bad tank picks (Hog and Ball torture as an example), but you could say the same about 5v5 as well. The lack of balancing from Team 4 was the cause of so many problems for OW1. Would there be problems if we swapped to 6v6 now? Again, yes, but there are always going to be issues with either format, it's just a matter of preference at that point. If you prefer 5v5, that's great, but personally, as a tank player, I much prefer 6v6.
As a DPS main, 5v5 caused a string of nerfs and reworks that sucked the fun out of most of the DPS roster. The only DPS players that actually think 5v5 is better are the hitscan children who just want want to click heads all day without actually using the ability intense kits we had with OW 1. As a symmetra main I absolutely LOVED double sheild meta. She literally gained charge AND free ammo from sheilds. I could TP behind the team, use the sheilds to build my chatge and cook an entire backline. Now I have to sacrifice a 2 year old goat under the new moon, at exactly midnight just to convince my one tank to actually move forward and make space for the team so we can get past the first choke because the DPS role is absolutely useless if your tank isn't tanking properly.
Even tho when ow1 did not get any updates at all in the end, I was playing daily, because it was a fun game. Now that ow2 is getting constant updates I haven't touched it in weeks. The game is dead. 5v5 is the reason
@lawrence9713 Same. I'd go back to a mostly balanced game, full of people who understood their roles and how to play them, without any content coming, over playing OW 2. The content drought was honestly an amazing time for the game, You could actually learn how to play it without some dumb, massive rework to core components of the game for the sake of "Shaking things up".
@@lawrence9713(OW2) My Seasonal Routine: 1. Install the game 2. Finish the battle pass. 3. Uninstall the game. 4. Pray that they will add 6v6 next season.
God, why does everything have to turn into the form of a political debate? Calling 6v6 advocates flat earthers is literally just an irresponsible smear campaign. Just because someone has a different opinion than you, doesn't mean you need to slander them and call them stupid.
When there is years of data showing how shit 6v6 is and people still act like it will be a fix for the game, is the same as people ignoring evidence in favor of a flat earth argument. If the mentally deficient shoe fits…
there is not "years of data showing how 6v6 is shit" there is one piece of data showing how role queue killed queue times, every thing else is entirely subjective and any attempt to make it sound other wise just makes you sound like a 9/11 truther
@@Catbeans99 great way to show you have no idea what you're talking about. The data shows that 6v6 wasn't working because of poor balance and a flawed hero design philosophy, not because the format itself was bad. When the badly designed heroes weren't meta the game played amazingly. Also... what years of data are you talking about? 6v6 role queue was only in the game for 8 or so months before the devs abandoned the game to focus on the nonexistent Overwatch 2 PvE. Equating people who want 6v6 back to flat earthers is just an ad hominem that does nothing to argue against the points being made. What's funny is that YOU are the one ignoring evidence, because people have made a fully functional 6v6 mode in the workshop that works well and the people who play it have no major issues with it.
Right? like im on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum and think 5v5 is dumb, its reverse logic opposite reality, they are just bringing politics into this out of bad faith becuse all there actual gameplay arguments are ass.
Should be more. He just insulted the playerbase for thinking of ways to help balance the game. Thats just toxic for a community when you shut down ideas with insults instead of explaining why they're wrong.
@@Catbeans99 The problem with balancing OW1 wasn't because it was 6v6. It was because the devs abandoned the game for over 3 years to work on a "sequel" that no one wanted or asked for.
@@lulzjeffy1337 Did you ever play OW1? Holy fuck dude, every patch was a new meta and balance nightmare. Combine that with point stalls and you had a stale, meat shield shooting simulator. It was a fucking slog to play.
There is one main bonus 6v6. That Tank can make mistakes in 5v5 you can't make mistakes. That's why I for example don't play tank anymore and in OW1 I was playing tank 90% of time. RN I play as DPS from time to time(like 1 game a week or less).
@@okami7847 I mean, yeah - better teams with higher skilled players will more often than not beat teams of lower skilled players. I don't think anyone's allowed to make mistakes in OW without them being felt by the whole team. I play in GM, and even something like a mistimed suzu is enough to change the trajectory of a teamfight, I don't see how that's tank specific besides feeling like it would be nice to have a partner to pick up your slack.
Literally the entire point of the format. Draft mode (which I've asked for forever) is what stops that. It existed so harshly in OW1 that entire comps were counterpicked by hero additions/synergies. But please, don't let me inturrupt you clowning yourself. If you don't want counterpicking, you need the free pick format to end, not just make 1 role so giga important that they can't be countered, unless you want the game to literally be unplayable as it was for the majority of OW1, as in queues were longer than the gameplay.
I like how overwatch was game of the year 6v6 and once they went 5v5 it’s the worst game ever rated on steam. Freedo is delusional thinking 5v5 is a better game than 6v6. Poor kid
those two things had nothing to do with it, ow2 got bombed because they made you pay to unlock heroes, had no promised pve, and were the bane of every blue haired groomer for their previous two years of in house "screw ups"
This is how games get away with horrendously selfish business decisions. They lied about pve and locked heroes behind a paywall but somehow the worst part was a gameplay change? That’s insane
Okay freedo. Lets be beholding to the evidence of your viewership and how its on the decline. Maybe thats because you alienated so many people. Lets follow the evidence of how you are losing your mind playing tank. Yet its better. Comparing honest people to flat earthers than say its sams fault for his tribalism. You sir are. Your gaslighter
You can't gaslight with factual statements I'm afraid. We don't have the playerbase for 2 tanks and never did. Asking for that as a solution, when it's gameplay was riddled with flaws as well is wishful thinking.
As a casual player who played since day 1. This is a joke 6v6 is the better format simple as that. How the hell could the original format be flat earth that shit makes no sense bro
How can anyone defend 5v5? It's objectivly worse, simpler and will never work as well as 6v6 because of counterpicking alone. We have lost like 5 hero identities, and the fanmade 6v6 inti ow2 is getting people more excited than ow2 ever did alone (after the launch failure).
This guy is legit Blizzard's nephew and he has the gall to call another respected content creator his nephew. 😂😂😂 Most disrespectful thing I've ever heard in this content creator space.
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama Does critical thinking skills have diminishing returns for the elderly like yourself? If you had any sort of brain you could piece together calling another fully grown man who you are barely acquainted with your ‘nephew’ or your ‘son’ who is a colleague of yours is pretty disrespectful. I thought if anything older people like ‘you’ would understand that. Did I spell it out simply enough for your smooth brain now, grandpa?
Half a generation older than Sam and been friends since early ow1. It is a term of endearment from an old man to a young one. But don't let facts interrupt your theory.
@@YourOverwatch Then why does it bother you I called you Blizzard’s nephew? Why didn’t you just say something to that effect rather than referring to a grown man as a younger more naive family member? Weird way of ‘bonding’ when you talked s about an opinion he didn’t even state literally in this video right after the fact. It was obvious you were mad. Now you’re gaslighting, did you even watch your own video? This is some serious antisocial behavior, Blizzard’s nephew.
NOBODY SAID 6V6 DIDNT HAVE ANY ISSUES, NOBODY SAID WE NEVER COMPLAINED, NOBODY THOUGHT THE OLD GAME WAS EVER BALANCED, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? I WAS HAPPY TO PLAY THAT OLD GAME EVEN WITH ITS FLAWS, I PLAYED IT ACTIVELY UP UNTILL IT CLOSED IN 2022, IT WASNT NOLSTAGIA, I PLAYED A GAME I ENJOYED AND WAS FOND OF. IVE MOVED ON FROM THIS GAME AS THEYVE ACTIVELY DOWNGRADED IT MORE AND MORE AND REFUSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS AND MISTAKE OF SWITCHING TO A UNSUPERIOR FORMAT.
hero bans is not the solution because of the current hard counters in the game. Imagine having to face a ball or doom fist one trick, and sombra is banned. Its going to be a nightmare of sweat trying to play against that. Hero bans couldnt work before because there wasnt a big enough hero pool. It wont work now because of the importance of counters. Remember how you said ow2 was gonna be great because you didnt have to learn a diverse pool of heroes, and you could play whatever you want, and there would be no counters? Or that Jeff Kaplan leaving was the best thing to happen to the overwatch team? You keep talking as if 6v6 happened, the devs would never patch any of the heroes like they do for 5v5. Thus making all these problems exist for 6v6, but oh wait this wont happen in 5v5 because the devs will balance 5v5.
Bro it hurts to listen to you. Tell the metal rank Hanzo players that balance doesnt matter to them after Hanzo was completely destroyed by the worst nerfs you could think of. And I feel offended by you telling 6v6ers they suffer from their own stupidity (Dunning-Kruger-effect). YOU are the one standing on idiot hill my friend. No matter what you bring up: Counterswapping is a real problem that could be solved by going to 6v6. ALL the trash reworks and balance patches / new passives that didn't work are there to mend the problem that arose from going to 5v5. But go get more of that sweet copium dude.
5v5 or 6v6.... It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, at the end of the day it's still shit. If the dev team can't make a good feeling balance for everyone it doesn't matter how many ppl are on each team. It's gonna still feel bad
@@xEvilRaptorx yea but theres a reason OW1 could still last even with an objectively WORSE balance team and balance updates that rolled out slowly than molasses. Yet lasted pretty long even after "dying" as most people said. Now ow2 is barely 2 years in now? And is back to where ow1 was, but ow1 took 4-5 years to get there lmao
There's a reason no one goes to your overwatch for overwatch opinions outside of early overwatch 1 when everyone was still dumb and bad at the game... all of this was a bunch of nada. Just incorrect.
Tank was my best role in Overwatch before Overwatch 2. Ive given it nearly 2 years now, but I cannot bring myself to play it anymore. Doing my daily challenges queueing for all roles is so miserable, as 85% I get tank. All of my characters I enjoyed playing, Dva, Zarya, Hog, Ball, all lost so much of their identity. I'm forced now to counter swap the enemy tank, if i dont I am throwing. This is not nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, tank went from my most played role, to nearly my lowest. Support is not far from catching up now. Even if you win by counterswapping, i dont feel good about it.
Bringing up a single streamer to prove one of your points is very confusing and not especially convincing. Is that not an outlier? Or at the very least anectodal evidence?
You are delusional. You must live in a copium bubble. A team of a few streamers made a 6v6 custom mode aimed for balance and competition in like 1~2 weeks and it worked well. If they can do it for free it shouldn't be a problem for a "indie" deve like Blizzard. The only thing that I agree is that the problem is NOT 5v5. The actual problem is roleQ forcing hulking solo tank. I only play openQ and a 212 / 221 feels 100x better than roleQ 122 specially considering that tanks are nerfed on openQ. As for hero bans its not viable yet. They have to add way more tanks and sups to the game before adding a hero ban system. Well unless they kept it limited to only banning dps characters. Queue times on games with roleQ will always be a issue. Games with roleQ always have that role that has a huge queue time and there is no working around it. If you want to play the popular role you have to wait or try your luck on openQ. Balancing the game around queue times is a huge mistake. The game must be balanced around fairness, competitivity and matches being fun. Have you ever stop to think that you might be the flat earther in this whole situation?
I mean, even if they did add Hero Bans (mostly looking at DPS Hero Bans), knowing the Players, they are gonna ether Ban Heroes like Sombra, Hanzo (debatably) or Widow, which is fair enough, they completely change how the Game is played, I mean, as soon as there’s a Widow, the game basically becomes like Rainbow 6 Siege lol, or they are gonna Ban Heroes that they just don’t like, like Junkrat, Torb, Symm, Genji, ect ect, but Hero Bans would be completely terrible on Tank or Support, more so Tank, as Tank because of 5v5, already get punished enough.
I hate that we only ever talk about changes to the game instead of additions. I want a clan system where I can invite people to my clan and then play 5v5 matches against other clans increasing or decreasing our clan rank, I want a map editor, I want to select Weapon skins of Legendary skins I allready have on other skins, I want more ranked gamemodes that are available permanantly like ranked lucioball or winstonball or please for the love of god competetive Prop Hunt, I want to decide what game modes I want to play so I never have to play Push ever again I want to do more than just play ranked 5v5 so I can make my Gun Green
yess! I want them to add more stuff to the game, but I feel like they won't do that if they have to restart over from scratch and shove 6v6 back into the game adding more years of just balance patches
I like what you said, but ranked prop hunt would be terrible lol. I loved prop hunt, I played it so much. But if it were ranked, people would be constantly hard grinding it, and know exactly when a prop is not where it is supposed to be to be.
OW1 was 6v6 and was just way more fun, no contest. 6v6 would be the only thing to even slightly convince me to try the game again, despite the greedy cash grab it has become
@@davidduran82skins cost $20, has half baked campaign modes for $10 each, for 80% of this game really op heroes like Kiriko, Mauga, and Illari were locked in a battle pass. is it that hard
The amount of gaslighting and outright logical fallacies coming from Freedo is insane. And then he has the gall to condescendingly talk down to others and claim they're committing logical fallacies. Just stop brother
You definitely weren’t “critical of overwatch 2” You were one of the biggest marketing tools for OW2, you can say whatever you want to say but we all know what the time is lol
You should take the Dunning Kruger line and apply it to yourself because there are a lot of players better than yourself, who have been in the game just as long and know the game to the level or more than you do, that disagree with a lot of what you said here. It's one thing to have a discussion, but for you to have this kind of arrogance and dismissiveness in how you address people with the opposite opinion that you have speaks volumes. "I know how to not say false, fallacious things" bro you contradicted yourself multiple times lmao
It really seems like at this point Freedos ONLY argument is "we dont have enough tank players for 6V6 and Queue times would be bad" But like, The queue times are bad RIGHT NOW in 5V5 because the role is miserable to play. Its not complicated, make the role fun to play and introduce a wide variety of characters and people will play your role. NOBODY enjoys counter swapping ( except for Freedo i guess ) I never complained about tanking in overwatch 1. I did wish that we had more tanks to play though since at the time the DPS role was so overcrowded in comparison. Now with overwatch 2 we have more tanks than ever! Too bad i cant play the ones i want since ill just get rock paper scissored into a hog mirrormatch though!
Queue times are approx 2x as good. There are many arguments. 6v6 had oppressive metas the entire time and loads of complaints too. Damage being irrelevant while being the most popular role being chief among them. It's not about having an "argument" why do you think an "argument" matters when it comes to facts. I can't argue against facts, unless I use wishful thinking which I refuse to do. I live in reality.
Judging by the overwhelming dislike ratios you've gotten on every single one of your 5V5 videos, you clearly do not live in reality Freedo. Queue times are only marginally better. tank is an instant queue while DPS and support is usually 7-10 minutes for me in Plat. Which is a mute point anyways. You 5V5ers constantly talk about. Overwatch 1 queue times being bad as if the format was the reason. When the real reason was it was a 60$ game that didn't get any updates for 2 years straight and was left to rot with a bad meta. 5V5 has literally had an oppressive meta every season while making tank miserable to play the entire time, but Have fun living in "rEaLiTy".
@@Theclooch yea the que times are in no way fixed and with them on insisting in keeping the game unfun theyre just going to get worse as more and more people give up on the role if not the game entirely. just today had to deal with fuckin 19 minute ques at 8pm so fuckin prime time as support.
Weak analogy, calling 6v6ers flat earthers. You spend most of the time attacking the 6v6 thinkers themselves and flaming them because of their opinions rather than critiquing their arguments with objectivity in mind. Claiming nostalgia clouds 6v6ers judgement is dishonest when it has only been 5v5 for ~ 3yrs. 6v6ers also acknowledge that there are still problems with the formula, but the problems with 6v6 are to a smaller extent and/or less frustrating than 5v5. You claim that samito is contributing to an “us versus them mentality” which I can see why people would believe that, but I would argue that, this video has done that more so. Because, While you bring up genuine critiques of 6v6, you attack the people who hold the 6v6 position more. You have poisoned the well by assuming their thinking is flawed and stating it right off the bat. When it must be debated if it is or not. Whereas Samito and others have targeted the 5v5 format its self, leaving out anything to do with the people who hold the position of 5v5. When you criticize the people and not their belief you contribute to the polarization of the community.
Made points, pointed to evidence, yet you're focusing on your feelings. The entire Flat Earther comparision is apt if you respond _this_ way. The "problem" with 6v6 was that it was literally unplayable, as in, you couldn't queue for it reasonably in the vast majority of the games life. Whether with terrible comps in open queue for 3 years or waiting in queue for the next 3. I literally say the opposite of the things you're claiming I said. The analogy isn't weak, it's quite literally perfect _right now_ lol. See how you're defending the "us" here? That's the entire poiunt of the comparison my guy. Watch the documentary please.
@@YourOverwatch you don't understand the meaning of "literally". maybe it was *figuratively* unplayable in top500, but as a plat/diamond player it was fine
@@YourOverwatchsee i dont understand how you can attack an argument for only applying to the top 3 percent of a player base but then use an argument that only applies to the top 3 percent of the same player base. queue times were more of a problem, yes. but in gold/plat/diamond the most i had to wait was 10 mins solo and like 15 mins duo with 2 dps. plus being a tank main i really didn’t deal with it much so for me at least it was completely playable if not more playable than ow2
You can literally open a can of sense and dump it over this man's shiny head and he still will never acknowledge a good point, but instead attack your pov. Truly weak af. Dude's personality is stuck in bronze irl
Diamond dps queue times were often 10+ minutes. That will NOT fly in a market with far more f2p competition and now more hero shooter competition. So no actually, literally unplayable is exactly the right word. I know what the word means and am using it correctly ty all vm
@@fullnelson4986bro I started playing ow in 2017 and came back a few months before ow2 dropped and I can say that those months when the game was basically dead was better than ow2’s peak😓
"We can't do 6v6 again because it's TOO HARD. We HAVE to do MY IDEAL Overwatch because NOBODY ELSE understands overwatch but me" That's how this video came off. 6v6 was literally a decent balance patch away from being much more ideal than anything 5v5 would even hope to match. This is why people dislike your arguments, you sound exactly like the "you think you do, but you don't" guy at blizzard. May as well shut the game down since apparently fixing things is just to hard unless it's Fredo's idea. Also calling Samito a nephew is wild. You seriously trying to lil bro someone that eclipses you? Tf are you on? Is this what keeps does to you?
Freedo, I agree you have fought back against Blizzard for years and I could feel your pain when PVE was cancelled. This is why I’m active in your chat and participate in the inevitable 6v6 discussions (also because I always wanted to watch you talk about the game live!) I will put it in the simplest way possible that I can’t in a back and forth on stream: ***OW’s issue regardless of format has always been defensive/sustain creep, whether it’s AOE healing, immortalities, or CC. The common theme of these attributes especially when combined on one hero is FREE VALUE. Heroes need clear weaknesses so they can be outplayed, and 5v5 makes this WORSE and FORCES this bad design which degrades the gameplay.*** Without an offtank: * Supports had no fun in the beta era because they were exposed and had to interact with the FPS aspects more than ever and had to get ridiculously buffed and given the absurd support passive which is better than any version of DPS passive and both tank passives. The funny thing is that supports were already about as good as DPS in duels in OW1 but now they had to be outright better. Brig inspire was unaddressed because 5v5 makes it harder to abuse, BUT IT’S STILL A BAD MECHANIC! They doubled and TRIPLED down on immos with Kiriko/Lifeweaver because these types of undo abilities are necessary to extend teamfights to not end instantly. * Tank then becomes miserable due to this so we get immense tank powercreep. With one tank per team there are only 2 options- either 1 tank is hard meta or the counterpick-athon ensues. Nobody except Freedo likes counterpicking or at least feeling FORCED to counterpick, and every tank being meta has sucked: JOATS, Zarya bubble/suzu cycling sustain meta, gigahog one shot meta, Doomfist 2 weeks meta, unkillable ball meta, Ramattra forever meta, Orisa deployment/sustain meta, AFK Mauga mirrors meta… every single one is trash. As for the 3 other tanks that didn’t have a fun sucking period of dominance in ladder/QP: Dva DM is now a ludicrous yet necessary 4 seconds, Winston is either counterpicked by 5 players or just endlessly dives the backline for free, and Rein is only viable when given too many stats. There is no ideal balance for tanks in 5v5. * DPS then becomes yet again an irrelevant role (wow looks like both the support designs and gigatanks are trash who knew!) and so the devs have to make bronze players be able to land shots, extend TTK with HP changes (making tanks even MORE GIGA and non-interactive), and give them an OP DPS passive to force relevancy. All of this so that we can have the extended teamfights/brawls OW made its name on without too much sustain. This also drastically lowered the skill expression which is the fun of DPS. Before you could 2 tap someone with a large % of the heroes and now it takes 3 hits (this applies to tanks/supports too, Ana is now a 4 shot instead of 3). Even though the shots are easier to hit, there are SO MANY moments you only have time to land 2 hits and the opportunity is lost, making it much harder to come back from a deficit, or even feel the difference when you are mechanically better than someone. The interactions in the game are feeling more and more guaranteed, which contributes to the counterpicking issue (soft counters feel even more like hard counters and hard counters feel impossible) but also- why even play this game when it feels like then results are predetermined? And now we are back in the spot where sustain is increasing again! So in 5v5, the roles TRAP eachother. It’s a 3-way standoff between them where one role will ALWAYS lose out when another gains. Tank too strong? Other roles get ran over and tank diff determines games. DPS too strong? The game becomes TDM and any MOBA aspect or OWness is lost. Support too strong? The game becomes boring for everyone except the AFK andies spamming heals into their tank. In 6v6, you can remove the role passives, revert all the stupid 5v5 changes (Ana sleep on tanks 3.5 sec while 5 sec vs other heroes, Cass having dmg reduction when doing anything, Hog/Moira abilities in ult, Orisa not-headshottable in fortify again, etc.) and finally address what broke the game originally (alter functionality of immortality abilities, finally address Brig inspire mechanics, give heroes clear weaknesses again, NO FREE VALUE abilities/heroes). I play every role, and at this point I have little fun on any of them, it feels like squeezing water from a stone. Sadly Genji, Doomfist, Reinhardt, Lucio, etc. are not in any other videogame and are trapped inside OW2. If only I could go back and play OW1 or a 6v6 “OW3”… Apparently it’s too much work to make 6v6 in OW2 but “some guys” were able to balance 6v6 better than Blizzard did in 6 years. All Blizzard has to do is swallow their pride (or even blame the failures on the old dev team) and use the ZHSKW patch notes and it could be out on 1 week and better than any balance patch we had in OW1. It’d be like adding 10 heroes all at once to OW1, which would be a bigger impact than both OW2 launch and PVE release combined. 6v6 doesn’t fix the game, it just ALLOWS us to finally fix the game.
Freaking comment of the decade here, blizzard hire this one. Freedo your vid should have been on this rather than saying "we all want a different version of overwatch" then proceeding to compare people who like 6v6 more with flat earthers, so a very not subtle way of just saying people with that opinion are wrong. I agree with many of your points Freedo of bad things that were in 6v6, but to give up on it being fixable because OW1 Devs didn't manage to fix it is silly. A Dev team who are busy and likely just trying to keep the game stable plus reacting to the loudest voices at the time. Anyway people will play tank if it's fun right? Personally I think looking at limiting the impact of tank synergy, the changes they have already done to reduce barriers, and leaning towards more tank design that's just fun like Queen (smaller hitbox and heathpool, more damage and risk reward) is probably the right direction. Huge character models and hitboxes require more health, and healing in OW has always been too much that it can make plays feel less impactful. I'd suggest 2 tanks again, revert HP pools or even reduce a bit but convert a bit more health to armour, reduce the larger tanks size, buff armour a bit, but most importantly give the tools to the community to balance their own 6v6 mode. If a chunk of the community want it why not. If it's better than 5v5, win. If not, you still have 5v5.
as an OW1 tank main, i just miss 6v6 for not feeling the pressure and heat from my team for being the only tank in OW2 5v5. i loved trying to synergize with the other tank on my team. i feel like 6v6 matches there is less consequences for having a bad player on the team. i don't care what changes to the game and balance updates need to be done, but i REALLY want to see 6v6 return in some sort of capacity. It doesn't have to be the same way as it was in OW1, but I want 6v6 in OW2 somehow.
i'm trying to stay open-minded, but I have yet to hear a decent argument from the 5v5 side that addresses this issue, and it's personally my biggest issue with the 5v5 format.
there are multiple 6v6 discord servers for you my friend. I dont think i can post them here because it might detect as spam but try and find one for your region.
I still feel like you can syngergize tho :o instead of synergizing with other tank your synergizing with your dps and supports. like I never played tank in OW1 but now it's the only role that I play.
This. I honestly believe people are just chasing after a high they'll never get again because they'll never be that same person they were all those years ago just learning the game and having fun. I've played the game for 6 years now and yeah, I still have fun, just not the same highs as before because it's become routine. And you could argue that the point of a live service game is to freshen it up every season, but do anything, even the most fun thing for six years straight and you're bound to get a little bored eventually.
@@ViktorCallaerts i'm true flex and play whichever position i'm in the mood for on any given evening. Most of my playtime is on support though, and if i had to choose, i'd say my Main is Ana
@@ViktorCallaerts Im a tank player and Im enjoying the game more than I ever had in 6v6. The rein/zarya win/dva duos people dream about happened like 5% of the time back then. What usually happened is your other tank insta-locks hog and youre left thinking how the fuck am I gonna deadlift this game
The TimTheTatman argument is so stupid. He wanted to play cass but Rein Zarya got in the way so he got bored. I want to play Reinhardt now but I can't because no matter what every game they swap to Orisa and I'm deemed useless. What's the argument? All I'm hearing is DPS players get what they want, tanks go fuck yourselves we don't care about your fun
This is the same guy that says "people enjoy counter picking" and that "tank is in a balanced state." LOL He's nothing more than a puppet for Blizzard like Flats. You people wouldn't dare speak against the blizzars and the format they've made for OW and that it is an interior version of the original formula. I mean the original 6v6 form won OW GOTY for 2016, yet you blockheads continue to run your head into the wall over and over again with defending 5v5 instead of swallowing the hard pill 💊 that the entire reason for OW2 died over a year ago.
Asking for Bans/draft since 2018 which directly limit the power of counter pick/comps... which by the way were DEVESTATING in OW1 since Brig (2018). What you're misquoting is me saying I prefer to play un-mirrored matchups and you assume I mean I like counter-picking to dominate the game. I wanted bans since Brig, you think counter picking is strong now? You literally couldn't play Tracer vs launch Brig. OW was always designed for this, the free pick format did it in both games.
Okay so after getring some way though your video here, imma interject part way though and say one thing. You say 5v5 is superior to 6v6 and its easier to balence, tonthr point you sort of compair the 6v6 love to that a fragile conspiracy theory. But lemme ask you an important question If its so supperiot and easier to balence...why isnt it balenced yet? How are we this far into 5v5, to thr point that sveveral huge system reworks and role reworks, had to be made to accomodate it? Even with you yourself, have gone on record to say tsnk is thr best its ever been, stresm tank, and then have a gutterally brutal experience. And im not saying that 6v6 is flawless, it damn well had flaws.But i dont find this argument to be genuine when thr reality seems to showcase the opposite and the same level if not more frustation at thr new format then the old. And speakibg of the format, while i will admit that im partcial to 6v6 and biased toward favoring it, its because it was more *fun*. Even at the worst moments, the game when it was 6v6 was more *fun* than the worst moments that 5v5 has to offer with not as higher highs and deeper lows than 6v6. But truthfully, i care more about fun regardless of the format. Im not claiming to have a silver bullet catch-all awnser here, but frankly, *fun* and *genuine* enjoyment of a game shoukd be TOP priority regardless of ehat thr balence is like. I dont like overwatch 1 because of pure nostolgia, i liked it because every time i booted up the game, even when i was having horrible luck and absolutely being trashed on, i was having more f u n than i do by just playing overwatch 2 to any capacity.
The nostalgia argument is pointless for the most part. We had a period of time where both OW1 and OW2 were online. No amount of "ItS jUsT nOsTaLgIa" will change the fact I quit playing the OW2 beta in favor of the live game which was more fun for me.
"why isn't it balanced" when the only consistently shit pick in the game has been Reinhardt for 4 seasons lmao you must have forgotten the days when you needed an entire comp built around them to make half the DPS actually viable and the entire role was just counterpicking or locking Tracer/Sombra, or when not locking Bap/Brig/Lucio meant you ate shit on most maps OW1 had way more throw picks, you just never noticed because you didn't have a scoreboard to pinpoint who was fucking up
No amount of words can make me not miss 6v6. Tanks need someone else on the field to work with. They did it for overwatch League and that's dead sooooooo.
ive listened to all your points, but i have to say you contradict yourself too many times for me to stay on the same page. for example, you said in 6v6, tank synergies required certain tanks to only be played with their synergy. then said that in ow2, tanks can hold their own with their reworks. adding 6v6 in ow2 does not mean going back to overwatch 1. which would mean any tank could hypothetically be played in 6v6, despite harsh synergies. the reason the "tribalism" arose with 6v6 is because we were constantly being ridiculed, dismissed, and invalidated. the cooler, newer overwatch 2 was in town and 6v6ers were an embarrassment and representation of the lame, dead overwatch 1 game. thats why we banded together and desperately tried to prove our point that we actually liked overwatch 1 more than overwatch 2. but its still not enough. 5v5ers continue to try to invalidate our opinions how theres supposedly one objective truth. apparently fun is measured by the loudest opinions. but its a lost fight now that marvel rivals is here. enjoy overwatch 2 in its simplicity aka emptiness.
There are TRUE trade offs, yes. None of which you have addressed in this comment, almost as if you ignored every point and instead have your feelings hurt -- you don't seem to realize that you're displaying tribalism in every word of this comment while not really hearing anything said. Literally the OPPOSITE of what you claim I said, is what's actually in the video, imagine that, imgaine how far off the mark you can be to say the OPPOSITE of the text of the video. Name a contradiction please, because being upset for calling out tribalism, then telling me how your feeelings are hurt and you had to band together... bro that's what tribalism is lol you're proving my point.
@@YourOverwatch i thought about rewatching every part of your video a few times to reinforce my comment, but halfway typing i thought to myself, do i even care? its not about feelings. i think you are insecure and are projecting in every way possible. trust me, its easy to read your tone. your only valid points are queue times, visual clutter, and difficulty to attract fps players. maybe its the way you frame your arguments, but even when you present your opinions, or "realities", you solidify my bias for the moba gameplay aspects. im unsure who youre trying to convince here. saying things like, overwatch now feels like an fps and not overly complicated. but we just want overwatch. that game they deleted and dont allow us access to anymore. you mentioned how in ow1, it was harder for newer players to learn the game because of 2 tanks prohibiting solo positioning, which is why ow2 is better for newer players. then later you say it was easy for tank players in ow1 since they didnt have to do much, where in ow2 tanks have to learn way more with their abilities, which you argue is more intuitive since it requires more skill? it seems like you want dps running rampant, since they are the majority and majority = more money for your content right? and you want supports to be safer, since they stay quiet in the background? us tank players know we're marginalized. at this point its not about bringing that extra tank back. its about getting everyone to admit tanks are hated and unwanted by the golden children of ow2.
@@salinaember9527 one quick thing... he doesnt eeven get to have the queue times argument... if we had f2p and FUN tanks like ram, queen, and some people believe mauga the queue times in ow1 would not be bad in addition to this fact guess what... whenever I do play ow2 the few times a year at this point I do because the game is so significantly worse I have the same fucking queue times
@@TheeRedNightmore people doesn’t mean better queues. Only percentile matter, we are 100 or 100.000, if only 1% wants to play tank, the queues would be practically the same
Dogshit take. Why wouldn't creators or pro players have more understanding of the game they sell their souls to? You are a casual, so you by default know much less about overwatch than the creators or pro players who have grinded this game like a 9-5. 5v5 has only one benefit that makes the game queues faster, with many tradeoffs that could be overall summarized as making the game less fun: like making 1 role more stressful, making the game less fun to that population, counter-swapping meta, terrible balancing to accommodate the new format, new format making some tanks absolutely useless due to the format changes. These are examples of losing tank matchups: Dva vs zarya, zarya vs winston, rein vs everything, everything except hog and mauga vs hog, no counterplay, only counterswap. Not chess, it's checkers/tictactoe. Supports make the game aspect of killing people, torture in this format, because the tanks get healed so much and so fast. The only way to slow that down is to play ana, since she is the only one with an anti heat on cd. This mechanic also gets countered by immortality effects. Baptiste and kiriko have team immortality, and kiriko has cleanse on top of that, on cooldown, making killing people difficult, since they have so many escapes. The list of tradeoffs that 5v5 created to get faster queue times go on, with dps characters too. Hanzo is boof now, genji blade is garbage, sojourn is free damage, reaper can't kill fast enough. It's funny that you are talking shit about 6v6 ideas, but you're getting ratioed by your own twitter poll.
@@MrGrreatness Then you are welcome to prove how dogshit it is. If you could even provide a good take with good points and logic flow, then I will wave the white flag. Bring it on.
@@8753likeaboss It's dogshit because all you do is list what you think are negatives to 5v5, then sit here and expect people to tell you that A. you're wrong (which goes nowhere because it's your opinion) or B. everything wrong with 6v6 (which goes nowhere because you'll probably just say "nah those weren't issues) So why should I waste my time when you're bringing such a one sided, unalterable opinion to the table?
@@MrGrreatness But here’s the thing, it’s not just what I think. Most people in the community thinks this. And this is supported if you looked at the poll that YourOverwatch made about format. 5v5 to 6v6 had a ratio of nearly 1:2, which means that 2/3 of the community watching him views 5v5 as a mistake. Plus look at the comment section to this video, ignoring the bashing on Freedo for his tone of disrespect or otherwise, everyone else agrees with me. As for the 5v5 format, I only listed a few of the tradeoffs and logic to why changing it hurt the game so badly and broke it. 5v5 issues at the core are that it the tanks weren’t designed for it, nor the format don’t fit the game. This is shown with how choosing the tanks are like picking pokemon, all you have to do are pick the weaknesses to gain an advantage. But it is ridiculous because if thats all it takes to win, and I am sure that pokemon at least have the ability to fight back if they have the mismatch, it means the pokemon have more counterplay options than a dva comp vs a zarya comp. There are more tradeoffs to this new format than benefits to the 5v5, and I haven’t listed them all out. But that’s exactly why it drowns out the issues in 6v6. The only issues in 6v6 that people argue is that the metas sucked like goats or dive, and double shield. But those were fixable, and all changed by balancing, which took too long because blizzard balance team was pretty mid. Balancing is an issue in both formats and are similar. But the difference is that 5v5 balancing could not change how there only 3-4 tanks max that are used because how much they bring to the table. All the 6v6 metas were changed or erased when blizzard put balance changes to destroy meta dominance. The time before goats, and at the “best patch of overwatch”you had many different various lineups like rein zarya, orisa hog, monkey dva, dva rein, all runnable at high elo. At low elo, the meta mattered less, but you could still play anything and had the chance to win, at the very least not get completely steamrolled every game if you were getting counter picked. Counterpicking was a thing in 6v6, but tanks wouldn’t always need to do this every few rounds, and swaps were more split between the team, instead of the one tank in ow2. Plus the extra tank, with weaker stats means less pressure for your team to solely focus all resources on one person, and the ability to kill enemy tanks with strategy by forcing out of position, on the opposite side of this spectrum. Then there is Tank synergy, which made tanks go on mics if they really wanted to win, because they were happy. Wouldn’t you say vc usage in comp lobbies went down since ow2 released? It’s because the tank role sucks, and since that’s the case, tank mains gonna keep quitting the game, and that snowball effect will be that queue times may even spike back up. How many tank players quit overwatch since overwatch 2, compared to timthetatman quitting overwatch 1? Hell, more people are quitting overwatch 2. But the reason why my argument looks one sided and set in stone, it’s because there are much more arguments of why 5v5 are bad compared to 6v6 being bad. You haven’t even gave us any arguments to why you think 5v5 is superior to 6v6, you should waste your time and rebut these claims if you can, otherwise I may win the case.
how can you say for the 6v6 side to not use "outliers" like the October 2020 patch to our argument then not 30 seconds later YOU USE AN OUTLIER in TimTheTatman showing ONE CONTENT CREATOR who left the game and his reason for leaving Overwatch wasnt tank synergies he complained specifically about DVa and Winston not ALL tank synergies just that one that had been meta for months and months on end (SORT OF LIKE ORISA IN OVERWATCH 2). Bap and Orisa players didnt hate the October 2020 patch cause they couldnt play their heroes they hated it because they had to actually LEARN how to play those heroes optimally just like the few Brig players during that patch. You contradict yourself multiple times in this video saying things like only the 3% of players like October 2020 cause the rest were still playing Rein Zarya in the metal ranks and later in the video you talk about how if you didnt play the "Proper" tank synergy in Overwatch 1 in the metal ranks you would get rolled. Which one is it? Were they playing the meta or not? Because in my Gold/Silver games in OW1 i barely ever faced Double Shield. The Queue times argument is absurd because the same issue with no one queueing for tanks HAS HAPPENED IN THIS GAME TOO. I haven't played this game in weeks and it is sad to see what this game has become. As a high plat player I can say that over 50% of my games i play in comp and quick play are just absolute steamrolls and some of the most boring gameplay i have ever had the displeasure of putting myself through. The game isn't fun that is why people are leaving in droves. No one likes things like the obnoxious Mauga meta or the constant nerfing of characters BUT GIVING THOSE SAME CHARACTERS COMPENSATION BUFFS. ROADHOG IS 800 HP NOW unless hes an absolute brickhead you can never kill him now. I have not played my favorite role Tank in months because it is so boring just swapping every game to play whatever counters the enemy tank it has sucked the individuality of you as a player out of the role. DPS is just as miserable at times with heroes like Widowmaker in the game who even if they are shit makes an entire team switch comps around her just to have a chance. They have tried everything in their power to try and make this format work and I went into the new game with optimism on how they would accomplish the new format. However, we are at a point nearly TWO YEARS into the games life and Tank is still as miserable to play as it was when the game released. It is time to shift the game back to 6v6 which won't be perfect or instantly make the game the best game on the market. But it will allow for a better gaming experience for all ranks and actually give players a reason to grind the game on ALL ROLES. I don't dislike you for your opinion or what you prefer, but the way you talk is extremely condescending and belittling phrasing things like you're talking to a bunch of toddlers and acting like people who wish for the format to go back to 6v6 are these brainless idiots or "we know too much about the game and your ego makes you short sighted" while you act like you are a know-it-all and everyone else but you is wrong.... as you contradict multiple statements like said above.
Quoting Sam's confused replies does not a comment make. YO lost 2/3rd of its stats due to Overwatch moving farther from a shooter. Watch the next video.
I think 5v5 messed up the tank experience. In 6v6 there was way more complexity in how tanks could approach situations or how to deal with yourself being countered outside of a goats or double shield meta. There was still a little bit of rock paper scissors, but i’d say there were more ways around it, like how dva could play around zar with a rein on her team, and it would feel just a bit more winnable winnable. Now, dva would just get hard countered and have to essentially switch off. Even more, it vastly increased the viability between tanks. Back in OW1, ball was already often considered a throw pick with two tanks, but at least you had the other tank that could cover for your team while ball players did their thing. Almost same thing for road hog. Road hog was either op or fairly mediocre. Now, since the 5v5 change, he’s either been op or dogshit. Sigma has become extremely situational instead of being a decent to strong pick usually. I could go on, point being that the subtracted player has taken away a layer of complexity and chemistry for the game that albeit was initially fun, but as they kept adding more to the game, it severely hindered the tank experience, putting more pressure on the one, which either made them way too strong or way too weak. imo
They just needed to have a main and sub tank role. It would stop double shield and goats. And it would allow Winston dva, hog to use their skillset without babysitting the team, And they could support rein sig and orisa.
I’ve been watching your videos since I got into overwatch in 2018. I think this video is a well made argument for 5v5 but I have not been converted. I liked the idea of 5v5 until I played it. Tank is less fun in my opinion. An argument for 5v5 I hate is that it can be balanced and 6v6 can’t. If you can’t balance 6v6 there’s no way you can balance 5v5 and if you can then I’m certain you can also balance 6v6. The Queue time issue sucked but was the right answer to sever the tank role? I do like that you point out that 6v6 is not a magic fix all solution cuz I agree. But tank just feels so miserable when you have to do it all alone. One last point is if people don’t like tank, 5v5 makes all the tanks more tanky to compensate so it does not remove any frustration. Just now only one player has to suffer the pain of that awful tank experience. I don’t know the answer but I would love an official trial of OW2 6v6 gameplay
I don't think either will be "balanced" in a way that keeps the community happy long term. Needing to add new heroes gaurantees the game will NOT be balanced as adjustements to the entire game state are often needed when a new hero is any good. 5v5 naturally promotes strategy diversity because you can counter pick -- not just the tank, but you can counter anything on the enemy team if you wanted to, the community just simplifies that to "counter the tank" when it need not be the case.
@@YourOverwatchThe community counters the tank because its the 1 thing standing between a guaranteed win in that team fight because it’s the only one. In 6v6 if you lost a tank you still had another one to at least have a chance, whereas now if your tank dies, you either instantly trade their tank or you die too
@@YourOverwatch thanks for the reply! I think you said it best when you said you can’t please everyone. The game is still fun for a lot of people right now and that means something. We still play and love the game no matter what issues pop up.
It's okay to have shit opinions but speaking for the players of this game? that is a bit too far, anything you say after hearing your statement "i enjoy counterpicking and i'm sure a lot of people do too" is just gonna be disregarded by the community from now on, you are cooked.
Tank synergy was what made tank fun. You mentioned you dont like the teamwork aspects of the game. But politely, OW is a team game because of the different roles. When the game turns into a deathmatch 1v1, its very boring, and if youre a tank, you feel useless. Like if I just wanted a shooter... I'd go play one of the countless choices out there. But that's not why i play OW. There is no other game like Overwatch. At least until Marvel Rivals comes out lol.
no 4 minutes into the video and I cant create enough accounts for the amount of dislikes i'd like to give because I disagree with all that was said already
All they had to do was implement a barrier clause where if you pick one tank with a barrier, the other is locked out to thr other player or something. Almost like a sub-role queue within roles...hey wait a second--
I feel like you forget times when a rein player would get a hog main as a 2nd tank on Kings Row in defense (or vice versa) while enemy team has a full dive tank duo. The balance was shaky af when you don't have a proper tank/supp picks
So what happened to the other ppl that love counter swapping too? They yearn for this format and the whole debate is silly, no one wants 6v6 back. Bruh, stop s1mping for Bliz because it looks like the general consensus in the comments say otherwise. No ones likes their games being steam rolls or doing the steam rolling, no ones likes playing tank anymore because blizz goes out their way to make tank unfun and feels like a thankless chore; and that sentiment is growing. I swear, its always non-tank mains saying, " everything is fine," when its not. It would be funny to see OW1 have a bigger player base than ow2, seeing the direction they took OW2 in general. Nothing but broken promises, but updated Skin STORE! Theres a reason why they took your ability to play OW1.
I really don’t think them doing a 6v6 play test would ‘Open my Eyes’ to how bad it was, it was much better- all of my friends who used to play the game have abandoned it and the new friends I made all think the game is cooked and are starting to play other games but I’m sure I’ll ’Open my eyes’ to the truth that this game is the best game ever eventually….right
I think there is a miscommunication of goals here. When I watch Samito videos, it seems like his goal is to make tank fun to play and play against. And he argues that goal is impossible in 5v5 because the stats and abilities needed to make tanks viable ruins the fun of DPS and Support. That goal is inherently subjective, but this channel is only focussed on objective metrics like winrates and pickrates. For example, Samito reacted to a video of Yeattle playing reworked Wrecking Ball. In that video, Yeattle ultimately won, but felt miserable because he had to do so much work to not die *and* pressure cart while getting Brig booped, hacked, and hooked. With a Zarya bubble or just another tank to draw attention, there would be chances to catch his breath OR the enemy investing all those cooldowns into him would let the other tank make a play (so at least one tank player would be having fun). Conversely, Sam pointed out that the "giga-tank" Yeatle Wrecking Ball never died despite all the resources the other team put into taking him out. So neither the tank player or the entire enemy team probably enjoyed that game. Wrecking Ball was balanced enough to not throw that game, but the person using him feeling angry and exhausted at their win is not good for the game. I'd imagine the argument for why Roadhog is still "not working" in 5v5 is along the same lines. I don't have strong opinions on 6v6 vs 5v5. I grew kind of apathetic to actually playing Overwatch after they admitted to lying about the PvE. As someone that plays only now-and-then and is is beyond casual, I'd lean more towards the Samito metric of success as healthy for the game long-term. Just because nothing is broken doesn't mean people are having fun - just like in that dead Quake game that was referenced. The fact that I don't feel compelled to even pick up the game 2 days in a row means the gameplay isn't that addictive. I've been more drawn to playing Splatoon 3 tbh. In 5v5, it doesn't seem like tanks can be both fun to play and fun to play against. If they are fun to play, they are impossible to kill. If they are fun to play against, they are too hard to use without getting blown up. In 6v6, all tanks were killable YET they could become exponentially more tanky with teamwork. That teamwork breeds comradery and a sense of friendship when you are really in sync. The tradeoff was that if everyone selfishly stuck to the character they wanted to play, then you could get destroyed by "synergies" on the enemy team. The fact that deathmatch modes were never that popular outside of queue-time warm-ups leads me to believe that most players preferred the "team comp builder RPG" to just solo-carrying with shooter mechanics. People didn't just like using the characters for kills; the teamwork was one of Overwatch's main selling points. TL;DR I don't think you can only use objective facts to judge the success of a game the way you'd look at stats for something practical like a car. It's not just about being functional. The entire point is for people to have fun, and fun is always subjective.
THIS IS THE COMMENT!!! Love fredo but he's got it wrong!! Making things simpler doesn't make it better! As a Tank I DO NOT want to be solo responsible for Team wins that's total BS! Its not fun. Yeattle was Stressed TF out. Being a tank feels like a damn second job. Killing Off tanks was just insane removed RPG formula and team play!! We loved the game because it was difficult and knowledge was power!!!
I'd argue the issue with tanks in 5v5 is the attempted solution to make them feel better to play. They keep increasing their sustain in terms of increasing thier flat health/armor/damage reduction numbers. This makes tanks harder to kill at the absolute skill floor. A dps can hit shot after shot into a tank and feel like they do barely any damage and the solo tank who is getting constantly shot at and cannot avoid bullets with their massive hitbox feel misserable themselves, because they can't do much to not get hit by everything. There is exception to this though. Look at Junker Queen. A tank seemingly beloved by the community, enjoyable to play and to play into and viable in most situations without many hard counters. There are a lot of reasons for why she is so flexible, but the part I think needs to be focused on is her player model. She has a slimmer player model, and thereby hitbox, than most other tanks, a relatively small head, her posture and movement is such that her head moves around a lot as she moves side-to-side, and she has shout which temporarily increases her movement speed to make it even more challenging to hit her. I think they should have gone more in this direction in 5v5. Less tanks with huge chunky models, such as Mauga, that you seemingly cannot miss. More tanks with the ability to dodge enemy fire. If you do this, you can give them smaller health pools because you are less likely to be hit with not just damage sources, but CC sources such as sleep dart as well. It would make tanks actually punishable for their mistake, just like a Junkerqueen can actually be killed if she doesn't properly use cover or moves in a straight line, while Mauga can just stand in place and outheal any incoming damage with his busted sustain (that he needs because it's basically impossible to not miss shots on him even if he tried to dodge).
Maybe don't poison the well and actively insult the other side if you are trying to convince people makes you sound like Overwatch's version of Moviebob
"i dont like this tribalistic us vs them mentality people have against me with calling me a $hill, we're all a family here." Uh, no freedo. No were not. You are one of the biggest voices for change within the overwatch online space. Whether you like it or not, you represent us to some degree and we look up to you to some degree to properly represent how the playerbase is feeling. Whether you want to admit it or not, A LOT of players want 6V6. Theres no way to verify it but it feels like at minimum , half the player base wants 6V6 at this point. I see the comments and dislike ratios EVERYWHERE on all these 5V5 defender videos. So when you go against the general populous of the game and poorly represent what the game feels like for them, fans are gonna rightfully get mad and call you out for your bad and "$hilly" takes. When you feed us gaslighty arguments about us being "nostalgic" and "mistaken" for thinking 6v6 was more fun for the casual players, people will get mad. Because the game feels BAD, Freedo. Its not a bad thing to have nostalgia for a system that felt better. Ive been a tank main since october 2016. 5V5 is MISERABLE. It is impossible to balance out counter swapping and that makes the role horrible for me to play. You can have your opinions on 5V5. Your entitled to them. You can call out samito for poorly managaing the toxicity of his fanbase, thats valid. But i dont think you have the right to be upset for people calling you a $hill when you go out of your way to misrepresent the opinion of how the majority playerbase feels about the game and its balance design. Love your videos btw. ❤️
Exactly, and this is why the flat earth analogy is toxic. 99% of the population believe that the earth is round. At least 50% of the OW community want 6v6 back when looking at polls and like to dislike ratios, and it doesn't even discount the amount of frustrated players that have quit the game who've disconnected from the community entirely
And the people voted for Brexit too so... This is called appeal to popularity fallacy, not an argument. I dispelled LIES the community believed _all_ throughout OW1 as well and will cont to do it now tyvm. Notice how your comment is all about your feelings and impressions, I don't actually see a point anywhere in this wall of text, other than you don't like it and don't like feeling insulted. You're asking me to represent a factually inaccurate position as the SAME complaints existed, or worse, for tank in OW1 _the entire games life_ . NOBODY EVER SAID you can't think its more fun, you're pulling that from nowhere, not something actually said. The point is we never had enough tanks to populate queues for the game or to function in that idyllic view of 6v6, it didn't exist for any significant length of time.
I never said you had to appeal to popularity lmao. I said you're not justified in being upset about the backlash when you have bad gaslighty arguments and miisrepresent how the player base is feeling about the game.
INFINITE CONTENT LOOP HACK
Hahaha even if we disagree nothin but love brotha. Could have defended you from shill allegations better than I have, we both know you aren't. Appreciate all you've done for me and the scene, don't want any hate thrown your way in my name
W Samito response
DEBUNK THIS DUDE IMMEDIATELY
I’m glad at least some content creators are still able to be adults. Too many people actually get so worked up and tie their own self worth into how many people online disagree/agree with them. W Samito response
Need to see the reaction to this samito!
@@Wolfin_Gwhat is he going to do to a bunch of adults that want to do what they want?
Fredo failed to talk about the fact that making heroes like roadhog and Winston less counterable by certain things effects other heroes negatively in a way that’s unhealthy for the game… I think the thing that 6 v 6 players argue for is to attack the designs of the heroes and not just the sheer numbers of them. Like sure you can force hot to work by bumping his numbers up until he does, but that doesn’t mean it’s healthy or balanced. Overwatch 2 is a much more numbers focused game which makes it feel extremely one dimensional and flavor of the month. 5 v 5 can never organically solve the counter swap problem, if you buff Dva’s numbers so she doesn’t get countered by Zarya it just means she counters what she countered even more, that’s not better, just different, which is why Tank still feels miserable and is the least played role, 5 v 5 doesn’t improve the tank experience, it just reduces the amount of tank players needed.
Also the “people don’t like shooting shields, so make it so there’s less tanks” argument is weird to me, if people don’t like shooting shields, then just rework tanks so there’s less shields? This is why so many people say that 6 v 6 never got the chance to be properly balanced, it never got the care or attention that it needed.
Another point that confused me was him saying “comps were only maximized to their skill ceiling at high rank” then saying that tank synergies were effecting all ranks (at least that’s what it seemed like he was saying) when is most ranks tanks rarely chose to synergies but they didn’t need to very often because neither did the other team, when I first started playing in OW1 I was gold and had to climb to diamond and very rarely did I feel like it was the tanks that were the problem unless it was hog hooking and one shotting me.
Point is I don’t think it’s fair to call wanting 6 v 6 back a “utopian ideal” when the main problems with the game were never addressed by that balance team, so any problems stemming from them never had the chance to be solved, and with a more active and effective balance team, the game could be more enjoyable for everyone and it would move away from this weird constant power shift where the devs try and find a sweet spot that doesn’t exist, because using numbers to make big changes will always have major positive and negative ramifications
This is so true. I think the reason for going to 5v5 was so they never had to address things like Brig inspire or Bap immo. Sure they’re less effective in 5v5, but they’re still bad mechanics. I thought 5v5 was gonna be a DPS playground but the higher rank I get (mid masters-GM5 range) the more guranteed matchups feel and DPS can feel completely cosmetic yet again. There’s also even more frustrating support abilities and gigatanks that are un-duelable. What is the point of this format then? Let’s have the deep, nuanced, team oriented game (6v6) and just reconsider the AOE healing, immortalities, and bloated kits. They already addressed shields/CC.
@@GraphiteBlimp27 yup. It really seems like Fredo is conflating us wanting 6 v 6 back with wanting OW1 back, when it’s more like we want 6 v 6 back, with hero reworks like heroes are getting in OW2.
"making heroes like roadhog and Winston less counterable by certain things effects other heroes negatively in a way that’s unhealthy for the game"
Exactly. When the devs know each team has two tanks, they can make more distinct tank designs and make them have large weaknesses that are supplemented with a second tank. But 5v5 ruins that. Imagine if you had only one DPS per team. Every DPS character would have to be a flexible god that can handle most situations. That's what they did to tank in OW2. Same goes for a 1-3-1 with only one healer. Healers would have to be so OP for that to work.
This is the game design problem Freedo is frankly ignoring. It's the core of the issue. Queue times are simply a QoL thing. This is the core of how the actual game functions.
@@rusty4265 yup, that’s why it frustrates me so much when he presents the OW2 tank changes as an objective success because of their pick and winrate smh
"I like to counter pick and I think that people also like to counter pick" godman bro, what a L take
Imagine if they removed one support instead of tank and the entire team counter-picked the mercy one tricks. Imagine how quick that would be reverted
lol
That's a fetish.
Except maybe you're a moron?
If the enemy picked brig the ones traumatised of the og brig would counterpick even harder and faster, probably lol
I honestly can't take you seriously when you said Heros behind the battle pass is a good thing.🤡💀
Even the devs themselves said they didn’t want that shit in their game😂
“I enjoy 5v5 and counterpicking”
He's Blizzard's nephew. Don't ever let him forget it
i think it was fine but the grind was way too much. idk why they insisted on tier 45 and didn't lower level requirement.
@@musicxxa6678it’s not fine just stop
Your reputation dropped like OW2's.
He’s always been the black sheep, the outcast, the pitiful lost child in the OW scene, it’s just most people were happy with the actual game so Freelo was easily ignorable, he still is now but it’s more fun to clown on him than to actually play Dogwaterwatch2
Honestly 😂
@@rxc4350Dogwaterwatch2☠️💀
damn, shills working overtime lul.
once 6v6 comes back in year or two yourshillwatch will praise it like the second coming lmao, mark my words
This "shooter game preference" was part of the channel since 2016.
holy L video.
They don’t call him FreeLo for nothin
Im frustrated. I like both YourOverwatch and Samito. I played 6v6 and always loved it, even when it got a bit stale, the drive to hit the skill ceiling was so rewarding and the game was so fun with friends. Ive played 5v5, was hesitant of it, but still enjoyed it for awhile, just not nearly as long as Overwatch 1. The gameplay loop may be more balanced in 5v5 and queue times better, but 6v6 was just more fun and rewarding for trying the game,. It let you choose to either settle into a rank and just enjoy the chaotic game, or choose to get really good at a hero with the high skill ceiling.
The core of the 6v6 v 5v5 debate to me is fun and teamwork(making friends). 6v6 may have been harder to learn and punishing, but it made up for it in fun factor. Synergiezing in 6v6, while it did cause metas that where staler at times, still create a fun atmosphere to work together as a team and make friends. (Plus the current system has may more balance updates so stale tank metas would be swapped faster.)
Few points I want to cover from the video. (I want to start by saying Freedo, Ive loved your videos and love your passion for OW and making content, I still think these points are important to say.)
Its Not Emotions
Most 6v6 enjoyers are not clouded by emotions or nostogia, those players left the game ages ago. Those that are left have been playing 5v5 every week and love this game dearly. I want the best for this game and after spending time looking at both sides, still think 6v6 is healthier for the game. Saying that 6v6 enjoyers are clouded by their emotions is completely unfair to their take and opinion of the game.
Stop Speaking for the Lower Ranks
Ive started notice that Freedo likes to speak for the Medal Ranks, saying to everyone how that they like 5v5 better. This isn't fair because as a Plat Diamond players, Ive haven't felt that's the case with the game. I did not start playing overwatch for the shooter element, I came to it to get away from it and playa team based, positional game.Players will have Freedo's sentiment when it comes to 5v5, but you cant make blanket statements for everyone.
To conclude this, Im tired of players who want 6v6 back getting pushed around and dismissed. The title you used, the way you talked about lower ranks preferred way to play and how you gloss over players want for 6v6 because of nostogia or rose tinted glass are not fair to people who actually just want a version of the game back that was more fun, period. Thanks for all the time you put into this video, there are a lot of good points going both ways, I just think the way you go about it not good at all. You cant be putting Samito down for his actions if you are willing to do the same, sorry.
I’m literally in silver and play 6v6 in the 6v6 adjustments server. A lotta fun, I wish the entire game was like it.
Bro heartfully calls out Freedo being a hypocrite. That takes a lot of bravery and dedication
@@KaffeineAddictcode plz
I appreciate this comment a lot. I’m sick of having people thinking their speaking for me and disregarding my critical thinking as simple nostalgia 😭
Amazing comment 👍
I just liked 6v6 better idk
Yepp 6v6 just hits better
Your opinion is emotional and a result of propaganda. You will enjoy 5v5 because i know what good for you.
your takes are absolutely horrible, you should not be having an opinion on this game's future 💀
As a Zarya main, then an Ana main, yeah. Miss 6v6
Some logical fallacies that may be present in this video (some of these are debatable):
- Ad-Homimen: People support 6v6 because they are delusional flat eathers.
- False Dilemma: It's either 6v6 like in OW1 or 5v5, while ignoring other options such as 6v6 but balanced differently than it was in OW1.
- Equivocation: Selectively using the concepts of the OW "community" or "player base" to refer to either the top tier of players or the entirety of the player base, depending on which suits your argument at any given time.
- Straw Man: You claimed to "Steel Man" the 6v6 position, but you left out arguments and evidence that could have made the 6v6 position look stronger.
- Poisoning the Well: At the start of your argument, repeatedly framing the 6v6 position as equivalent to flat earth.
- Appeal to Authority: Just trust the devs.
- Affirming the Consequent: If the 6v6 format worked, we wouldn't have had the problems we saw in OW1. We had problems in OW1, therefore the 6v6 format doesn't work (while ignoring that there were causes other than the format).
- Statistical Fallacy: Misuse of the concept of an outlier. Saying "The October 2020 patch was great, lets go back to that" is not the same as saying "Lets focus on a data point at the far end of the Bell Curve." Also, sometimes outliers are actually important (see "Accident" below).
- Cum hoc ergo propter hoc: 6v6 and OW1 problems are correlated, therefore the OW1 problems were caused by the 6v6 format.
- Fallacy of the Single Cause: The 6v6 format caused the problems in OW1 (while ignoring or not adequately emphasizing the role that the devs / balance team played in it).
- Accident: Just ignore the October 2020 patch.
- Cherry Picking: Only citing the evidence that supports your arguments while ignoring or dismissing counter-evidence and arguments.
- Historical Fallacy: The problems with OW1 were because of the 6v6 format (while ignoring other causes for the problems with OW1).
- False Equivalence: 6v6 in OW2 would be the same / have the same problems as 6v6 in OW1 (not necessarily true).
- Incomplete Comparison: As a result of cherry picking evidence and the arguments you responded to, you fail to truly "steel man" the 6v6 argument.
- Kettle Logic: Supporting your position with inconsistent arguments, such as "Tank duos were oppressive..." and "most players didn't play the meta" (ie, most players didn't bother with coordinating tank duos).
- Nirvana Fallacy: Rejecting arguments about how 6v6 could work, because it may cause other problems.
- Package Deal: 6v6 in OW1 would be similar to 6v6 in OW2 (despite the fact that the game is being balanced differently now).
- Retrospective Determinism: OW1 had problems with the 6v6 format, therefore the 6v6 format made those problems inevitable.
- Psychologist's Fallacy: Presupposing your own objectivity. (ie, the idea of "My arguments are objective and free of fallacies").
- Special Pleading: The October 2020 patch was good, but it doesn't count.
- Inductive Fallacy: Your argument does not support your conclusion as strongly as you claim it does.
Ad hominem requires the insult to BE the argument. Ignoring evidence is never good, the insult on top is NOT the argument. Sam literally says in his video "maybe the 2x better queue times are from plat 30 seconds from a minute?" This is some flat earth ignorance on how math works. The global average is 2x better, thats just how math works. His lack of undestanding the evidence is what makes the point a flat earther, its not a smear.
False dilemma. you're straw manning pretty hard here, my point is that balance is irrelvant to tank popularity, as we've seen in 8 years of evidence, bar 1 mo at top 3%. Funny how you fallacy while trying to apply a fallacy, interesting move.
Equivocation. Cition needed. Not sure you know what this word means.
In fact, this is just littered with straw man, dang its really hard to read you reword my POV so badly for so much of this. Did you even try to STEEL man my position whatsoever? Surely you know why that, and avoiding straw man is - because you definately didn't google a list of informal fallacies you didn't really understand and just copy paste straw man misrepresentations of your version of my points. So much time to type this, and so much misrepresentation. Why spend your time this way?
@@YourOverwatch dude this was not hard to look up definitions, he doesn’t care about your takes. Your ability to refute your ideas is oppressive and not based in logic. Like these replies you do 2 weeks later and yet you still get barely any likes on replies. The misspelling and clear lack of planning with your responses it’s a microcosm of much bigger issues that are most likely affecting your personal life.
How can you say he's saying 'just trust the devs' when it's pretty clear he thinks the devs are full of themselves. Please stop thinking AP English debate terms are always correct
@@YourOverwatch Hey Freedo, thank you for responding.
1. It wasn't my intention to straw-man your argument and if I did that, I apologize. I was just trying to be concise. Also, I think in my initial comment, I could have been more thoughtful and respectful. So I apologize for that.
2. You make good points about the three fallacies you mentioned. What about the other 19? If you make a video in which you accuse people of using fallacious arguments while claiming that you don't commit fallacies, you better make sure that your argument is bullet proof, which it isn't. I pointed out several problems with your argument, as did Samito, as did other people.
3. Ad Hominem: Fair point. The insult is not the argument. I'm wrong there. But I have to ask why use insults at all? You could have made the argument without being insulting and condescending. So why not just be respectful?
4. False Dilemma: My point was that it really sounds like you're presenting "Tank queues & 6v6 as it was in OW1" vs "5v5 as it is in OW2" as if there aren't other options. Though I could be wrong.
5. Equivocation: You're right on this one. I misused the term "Equivocation." So instead, see Kettle Logic.
6. It didn't take "so much time" to write that comment. It took about 10 minutes for me to write down my list and about 5 minutes to look up the names of some of the fallacies.
7. You said some of the arguments 6v6 folks make are "as unfounded and easily disproven as statements made by flat earth." You go on to talk a about the psychology motivating flat earthers and end up making a comparison between flat earth and 6v6, you say that 6v6 folks can be blinded by their ego, etc. That is way beyond what you said in your comment about how the flat earth stuff was simply in reference to Samito not understanding evidence. This sounds a bit like a Motte-and-Bailey Fallacy.
Honestly, I'm a fan of yours. I have been since I started playing OW years ago. It's a bummer to see you spend so much energy insulting people, being condescending, and failing to really engage with the other side's arguments. It feels like your video was made for folks who already agree with you, rather than to persuade people who disagree.
@@YourOverwatch (Sorry about the multiple responses, the first one didn't tag you properly).
good god, the insecurity about sounding smart is killing me slowly
Having to show Pictures of what certain words mean because he thinks people are stupid is so fucking arrogant lmao
Peak comedy would Freelo having him hormone levels tested and posting the results
who remembers when freedo said he loves the game when its counter swapping instead of having the game being right in ur hands and making the best plays with any character and winning that game
citation needed lmfao
@@YourOverwatch look at a video by raider talking about OW2 problems. 10:14 on the dot. He references a 2 month old video "The Great March Debate". I would love to see your response 🤡
@@YourOverwatch The Great March Debate. Referenced in a certain vid that apparently keeps getting this reply deleted :)
Edit: I saw everyone replying and decided to be petty and thorough. The Great March Debate 1:32:20
@@YourOverwatch You have expressed several times that you like counter swapping as a mechanic which is killing the game right now, i dont know about that second part, but you do support the mechanic that is irritating players, that has made gameplay styles dissapear and got gameplay loops horrible and boring accross the board.
@@YourOverwatch caught in 4k
I suggest EVERYONE. I MEAN EVERYONE here to go watch Samito’s reaction to this video because he just completely disproved freedo’s points. Seriously this dude is not real. I am CONVINCED he does not play the same game as us. All the things about freedo lile how condescending he is. How contradicting he is. Even him belittling and being rude to the casual player base and SAMITO and trying to mass gaslight the casual community. I mean everyone in both video’s comments have said all that and what’s said is said but please watch Samito’s reaction to it. But holy, I cannot even believe what I watched. Thank god Samito exists to counteract such blatant lies
Watch the next vid.
Freeds arguements. 10% facts / numbers. 30% False comparisons. 30% misunderstanding data. 30% insults
Damn Gsraider was right 😂😂😂
Yeah this guys is the gawk gawk 3000 him self at this point he should change his name to blizzard/life
@@JumpsOw fax 😂😂😂
YourShillverwatch
AHAHAHHAHHAA WE GOING TO INSTA WITH THESE COMMENTS 🤣🤣
@@aeron.1197 gotta get to blizzard somehow bro 😂😂😂
5v5 is overwatch flat earth
Damn you so edgy
5v5 is our reality. Maybe OW1 would have found a better meta at the balancing pace of OW2; we'll never know but the problems spoken to in this video were real for a long time.
6v6 is overwatch flat earth. 6v6 is delusion
@@MrGrreatness I'm confused by this whole metaphor... are you 5v5ers insinuating that you guys believe the earth was flat an it can be historically proven? This whole rally cry you copium addicts came up with is the most "~le~Reddit I r 5000iq" crap tier thing I've heard in awhile.
@@sparquisdesade "Me call you Flat-Earther bc me think you dumb-dumb like them" is really all it amounts to, these guys really think they're clever too lol
Nah bro I bet blizzard got u doin tricks off it 😂
fr bro is slobbering
Comparing Flat Earthers to to 6v6ers? Your so toxic 😢 unsubbed
They literally are complete braindead tribalism
yea ikr, what a joke
Same
Nothing makes me more happy then seeing freedo get destroyed and dismantled by the comments for his OUTRAGEOUS and GARBAGE takes. Maybe gsraider was right…
His name is Freelo, be refer to him as such from now on, you know how seriously he takes his massive collection of L’s
Played since launch as an Off tank main. The role got nuked in OW2 for 5v5. Tried playing it, and it felt HORRIBLE.
I miss the Rein/Zarya team ups, and the Winston-DVA dives which are my favorite.
I can't even play with my Main Tank friends anymore.
5v5 is overwatch flat earth tf
gsraider proved everything right
The 5v5 side is just never going to be correct. There is no world in which completely changing the format of a game that had been around for a near-decade, something that COMPLETELY changes the game and the way it is played, is a good idea. Like imagine if I went to R6: Siege and was like "you know what, this game isn't exactly to my liking, how about we add overshields to all the operators, remove sprinting, make cameras indestructible, remove an entire operator from the team, and add a minimap that shows everyone's location. Oh yeah, and let's add some new operators that make the other ones completely obsolete, and fuck with the ones that have already been around for years!" like yeah, people would be rightfully pissed for having their game fucked with so why are things different when it comes to OW?
Also I really struggle to understand why the 5v5 side is so willing to die on the hill that 5v5 is better for the game; like what is the end-game here, to just keep going until the game inevitably implodes on itself? Like what is the actual worst that could happen from reverting back to 6v6? Having to wait slightly longer for a game? Needing to use your brain more to win? The devs actually having to do their jobs and reverting the shit changes that they created? Please, just give me one solid good reason why keeping things the way they are now is better for the game.
What’s pretty funny to me is Jeff kaplans original team even stated they tried 5v5 and 7v7 internally when developing OW1 and found that 6v6 was the only one that felt right. They made a GOTY title that revolutionized the industry but now we’re acting like this new dev team knows better with 5v5. OW1 had its issues but I’ll take them any day over another season of this OW2 dumpster fire.
They also never expected multiple tanks to get picked, also didn't care to design the game with any competitive integrity whatsoever. It was designed to maximize hero fantasy, not competitive balance, which is why it launched with 4 roles, symmetra being a support and the "new content" they added was to fix the Dive era when supports were the target, is make them giga powerful like Valk 1.0 and Brig. EXTREMELY selective to pluck out the small sliver of their philosphy that supports your claim, this would be called confirmation bias. The way they played the game then, is entirely different than the communities expectations years later.
@@YourOverwatchSo I have one simple question I really hope you get to answer. Do you have more or less fun in ow2 than you had in ow1 and what role do you play most?
Just because the original team tested out 5v5 and 7v7 said that they didn’t work doesn’t mean it’s true. They had very little data and also very little heroes at the time.
@YourOverwatch the only reason we went 5v5 was laziness and in order to sell ow2 as a new game. Anything else is copium
@@gdwe1831 people these days really just call every company lazy and don’t back it up at all huh
I actually was excited for 5v5 initially. I no longer had to rely on a second tank to help me, especially in dive comps, but now? I'd much prefer having a literal monkey as my 2nd tank in 6v6 than having to deal with counterswap simulator in 5v5. You could always make adjustments for bad players on your team, but you can never adjust for constant counterpicking in the tank role. Best thing you can do is hope they stick to a mirror or you counterpick until you win. Tank is no where near as skillful as it once was and it is way harder to carry games as well due to being constantly looked at and countered.
You can never tell me that 5v5 is better for tank. You just can't. It may be better for DPS and Support players (although, I'd argue exchanges between tanks and DPS are boring af and lack any sort of depth compared to 6v6). DPS get their queue times, which is great. Supports are more fun to play due to people finally realizing you could actually be more engaged in fights instead of just heal botting. That's about it for 5v5. That's why I swapped off tank to DPS. Tank is sort of 1 dimensional, boring and outright frustrating to play, whereas DPS and Support has way more play making potential on their own and can easily carry games if they're good enough.
I love tanks, at least 6v6 tanks. They felt so much better to fight, to fight as, were actually really punishable and were more skillful as a result. I climbed through the ranks playing tanks. I went from Plat to low Masters playing tank in open queue and then when role queue came out, I eventually climbed up to GM. I peaked all the way to 4399 SR playing characters like Winston, Reinhardt and Zarya when they were good. It was way more fun than it is now. Were there problems? Of course, Double Shield was a major issue, but it was a balance issue, not a format issue. There was also the issue of bad tank picks (Hog and Ball torture as an example), but you could say the same about 5v5 as well. The lack of balancing from Team 4 was the cause of so many problems for OW1. Would there be problems if we swapped to 6v6 now? Again, yes, but there are always going to be issues with either format, it's just a matter of preference at that point. If you prefer 5v5, that's great, but personally, as a tank player, I much prefer 6v6.
As a DPS main, 5v5 caused a string of nerfs and reworks that sucked the fun out of most of the DPS roster. The only DPS players that actually think 5v5 is better are the hitscan children who just want want to click heads all day without actually using the ability intense kits we had with OW 1.
As a symmetra main I absolutely LOVED double sheild meta. She literally gained charge AND free ammo from sheilds. I could TP behind the team, use the sheilds to build my chatge and cook an entire backline. Now I have to sacrifice a 2 year old goat under the new moon, at exactly midnight just to convince my one tank to actually move forward and make space for the team so we can get past the first choke because the DPS role is absolutely useless if your tank isn't tanking properly.
5v5 is worse for everyone, not just for tanks
Even tho when ow1 did not get any updates at all in the end, I was playing daily, because it was a fun game. Now that ow2 is getting constant updates I haven't touched it in weeks. The game is dead. 5v5 is the reason
@lawrence9713 Same. I'd go back to a mostly balanced game, full of people who understood their roles and how to play them, without any content coming, over playing OW 2. The content drought was honestly an amazing time for the game, You could actually learn how to play it without some dumb, massive rework to core components of the game for the sake of "Shaking things up".
@@lawrence9713(OW2)
My Seasonal Routine:
1. Install the game
2. Finish the battle pass.
3. Uninstall the game.
4. Pray that they will add 6v6 next season.
God, why does everything have to turn into the form of a political debate? Calling 6v6 advocates flat earthers is literally just an irresponsible smear campaign. Just because someone has a different opinion than you, doesn't mean you need to slander them and call them stupid.
This is the only thing he can do now because Samito has been continuously dismantling his flawed arguments again and again.
When there is years of data showing how shit 6v6 is and people still act like it will be a fix for the game, is the same as people ignoring evidence in favor of a flat earth argument. If the mentally deficient shoe fits…
there is not "years of data showing how 6v6 is shit" there is one piece of data showing how role queue killed queue times, every thing else is entirely subjective and any attempt to make it sound other wise just makes you sound like a 9/11 truther
@@Catbeans99 great way to show you have no idea what you're talking about. The data shows that 6v6 wasn't working because of poor balance and a flawed hero design philosophy, not because the format itself was bad. When the badly designed heroes weren't meta the game played amazingly.
Also... what years of data are you talking about? 6v6 role queue was only in the game for 8 or so months before the devs abandoned the game to focus on the nonexistent Overwatch 2 PvE.
Equating people who want 6v6 back to flat earthers is just an ad hominem that does nothing to argue against the points being made.
What's funny is that YOU are the one ignoring evidence, because people have made a fully functional 6v6 mode in the workshop that works well and the people who play it have no major issues with it.
Right? like im on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum and think 5v5 is dumb, its reverse logic opposite reality, they are just bringing politics into this out of bad faith becuse all there actual gameplay arguments are ass.
lol the 50% dislike ratio on this vid is crazy, but also warrented
Should be more. He just insulted the playerbase for thinking of ways to help balance the game. Thats just toxic for a community when you shut down ideas with insults instead of explaining why they're wrong.
@@Adventist19976v6 is not a way to balance the game since we have YEARS of data proving it was a balance nightmare. Holy shit you guys are dense.
@@Catbeans99 The problem with balancing OW1 wasn't because it was 6v6. It was because the devs abandoned the game for over 3 years to work on a "sequel" that no one wanted or asked for.
@@lulzjeffy1337 Did you ever play OW1? Holy fuck dude, every patch was a new meta and balance nightmare. Combine that with point stalls and you had a stale, meat shield shooting simulator. It was a fucking slog to play.
@@Catbeans99 you have a lot of anger. Chill out lol.
Now you are calling 6v6 lovers flat earthers.
You sir, are officially fried 💀
We allow Freedo to cook and he roasts it. Never let this man cook again💀
@@therebelfrogy9287 when, why and who, let Freedo start cooking?!?!
The Kitchen is up in flames, and the casserole is now charcoal lol 😂
we should call him FRIED-O
Freedo is right. 6v6 reminiscers are flat earthers
@@MrGrreatnessBro, you're part of the dish
6v6 was better.
To the eventually whiner babys that will respond to this...name one good meta in overwatch 2?
The amount of times you’ve told us we actually don’t know what this or that means or works is actually frustrating
Extremely common Freelo L
@DsjomtTruts gotta remember freedo has the overcock in his mouth def paid
He acts ad if the people watching his videos are crayon eating toddlers
There is one main bonus 6v6. That Tank can make mistakes in 5v5 you can't make mistakes. That's why I for example don't play tank anymore and in OW1 I was playing tank 90% of time. RN I play as DPS from time to time(like 1 game a week or less).
To be fair, if you had one tank underperforming it was just as likely for people to be like "gg it's a 5v6, hog throwing" as it would be now
@@kjak94You're not wrong its just that getting stomped due to your Tank now means you have no frontline presence against their raidboss Tank.
@@okami7847 I mean, yeah - better teams with higher skilled players will more often than not beat teams of lower skilled players. I don't think anyone's allowed to make mistakes in OW without them being felt by the whole team. I play in GM, and even something like a mistimed suzu is enough to change the trajectory of a teamfight, I don't see how that's tank specific besides feeling like it would be nice to have a partner to pick up your slack.
This guy said that he enjoyed counterpicking and thinks others do to 😂😂😂 anything you say afterwards doesnt matter anymore
Literally the entire point of the format. Draft mode (which I've asked for forever) is what stops that. It existed so harshly in OW1 that entire comps were counterpicked by hero additions/synergies. But please, don't let me inturrupt you clowning yourself. If you don't want counterpicking, you need the free pick format to end, not just make 1 role so giga important that they can't be countered, unless you want the game to literally be unplayable as it was for the majority of OW1, as in queues were longer than the gameplay.
@@YourOverwatchso toxic, so blind, so disrespectful.. you're pathetic
@@YourOverwatchThank you Blizzard's nephew, very cool !
@@YourOverwatchIf that is the entire point of the format then it’s not a good fucking format. End of discussion.
@@YourOverwatchNo you are the one clowning on yourself by comparing people who prefer 6v6 to flat earth
The like/dislike ratio is coming along quite well KEEP UP THE FIGHT EVERYONE! BRING BACK 6V6!
I like how overwatch was game of the year 6v6 and once they went 5v5 it’s the worst game ever rated on steam. Freedo is delusional thinking 5v5 is a better game than 6v6. Poor kid
those two things had nothing to do with it, ow2 got bombed because they made you pay to unlock heroes, had no promised pve, and were the bane of every blue haired groomer for their previous two years of in house "screw ups"
This is how games get away with horrendously selfish business decisions. They lied about pve and locked heroes behind a paywall but somehow the worst part was a gameplay change? That’s insane
Freedos title comparing 6v6 to flat earth is the dumbest thing. There has been 6v6 there has never been a flat earth how dumb is he?
Checkmate atheists
@@YourOverwatchMarval rivals to the rescue for OW athiests then
@@YourOverwatchHow dumb can you be freedo
Enjoy. Not sarcasm
I will enjoy a fun game, have been so happy playing other games. Ow2 felt like a chore to keep up to date @@YourOverwatch
Okay freedo. Lets be beholding to the evidence of your viewership and how its on the decline. Maybe thats because you alienated so many people. Lets follow the evidence of how you are losing your mind playing tank. Yet its better. Comparing honest people to flat earthers than say its sams fault for his tribalism. You sir are. Your gaslighter
You can't gaslight with factual statements I'm afraid. We don't have the playerbase for 2 tanks and never did. Asking for that as a solution, when it's gameplay was riddled with flaws as well is wishful thinking.
@@YourOverwatch He has a point you won't address though. No one can see the data you're talking about.
@@YourOverwatch Dude's giving off real Ben Shapiro vibes with the whole "Facts don't care about your feelings" crap in the replies
No counter evidence provided. I am openly asking for you to. That's not what gaslighting is.
If you even scan thru the queue times from ow1 to 2 it's not even difficult to notice. Gavin reported it as approx 2x as good ow1 to 2
Maybe name your channel "Your Flatearther"
“Your Free Elo” as that’s what it is when playing against him
As a casual player who played since day 1. This is a joke 6v6 is the better format simple as that. How the hell could the original format be flat earth that shit makes no sense bro
Preach!
How can anyone defend 5v5? It's objectivly worse, simpler and will never work as well as 6v6 because of counterpicking alone. We have lost like 5 hero identities, and the fanmade 6v6 inti ow2 is getting people more excited than ow2 ever did alone (after the launch failure).
This guy is legit Blizzard's nephew and he has the gall to call another respected content creator his nephew. 😂😂😂 Most disrespectful thing I've ever heard in this content creator space.
is nephew some new zoomer term?
@@Monkchelle_Kongbama Does critical thinking skills have diminishing returns for the elderly like yourself? If you had any sort of brain you could piece together calling another fully grown man who you are barely acquainted with your ‘nephew’ or your ‘son’ who is a colleague of yours is pretty disrespectful. I thought if anything older people like ‘you’ would understand that. Did I spell it out simply enough for your smooth brain now, grandpa?
Half a generation older than Sam and been friends since early ow1. It is a term of endearment from an old man to a young one. But don't let facts interrupt your theory.
@@YourOverwatch Then why does it bother you I called you Blizzard’s nephew? Why didn’t you just say something to that effect rather than referring to a grown man as a younger more naive family member? Weird way of ‘bonding’ when you talked s about an opinion he didn’t even state literally in this video right after the fact. It was obvious you were mad. Now you’re gaslighting, did you even watch your own video? This is some serious antisocial behavior, Blizzard’s nephew.
We all know 6v6 would be better than 5v5. I haven't touched tank since the start of Overwatch 2 cause tanking sucks in 5v5.
NOBODY SAID 6V6 DIDNT HAVE ANY ISSUES, NOBODY SAID WE NEVER COMPLAINED, NOBODY THOUGHT THE OLD GAME WAS EVER BALANCED, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? I WAS HAPPY TO PLAY THAT OLD GAME EVEN WITH ITS FLAWS, I PLAYED IT ACTIVELY UP
UNTILL IT CLOSED IN 2022, IT WASNT NOLSTAGIA, I PLAYED A GAME I ENJOYED AND WAS FOND OF. IVE MOVED ON FROM THIS GAME AS THEYVE ACTIVELY DOWNGRADED IT MORE AND MORE AND REFUSED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOINGS AND MISTAKE OF SWITCHING TO A UNSUPERIOR FORMAT.
100%
SAY IT LOUDER THEY WONT HEAR US
hero bans is not the solution because of the current hard counters in the game. Imagine having to face a ball or doom fist one trick, and sombra is banned. Its going to be a nightmare of sweat trying to play against that. Hero bans couldnt work before because there wasnt a big enough hero pool. It wont work now because of the importance of counters. Remember how you said ow2 was gonna be great because you didnt have to learn a diverse pool of heroes, and you could play whatever you want, and there would be no counters? Or that Jeff Kaplan leaving was the best thing to happen to the overwatch team? You keep talking as if 6v6 happened, the devs would never patch any of the heroes like they do for 5v5. Thus making all these problems exist for 6v6, but oh wait this wont happen in 5v5 because the devs will balance 5v5.
Bro it hurts to listen to you. Tell the metal rank Hanzo players that balance doesnt matter to them after Hanzo was completely destroyed by the worst nerfs you could think of. And I feel offended by you telling 6v6ers they suffer from their own stupidity (Dunning-Kruger-effect). YOU are the one standing on idiot hill my friend. No matter what you bring up: Counterswapping is a real problem that could be solved by going to 6v6. ALL the trash reworks and balance patches / new passives that didn't work are there to mend the problem that arose from going to 5v5. But go get more of that sweet copium dude.
5v5 or 6v6....
It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd, at the end of the day it's still shit.
If the dev team can't make a good feeling balance for everyone it doesn't matter how many ppl are on each team. It's gonna still feel bad
@@xEvilRaptorx yea but theres a reason OW1 could still last even with an objectively WORSE balance team and balance updates that rolled out slowly than molasses. Yet lasted pretty long even after "dying" as most people said. Now ow2 is barely 2 years in now? And is back to where ow1 was, but ow1 took 4-5 years to get there lmao
There's a reason no one goes to your overwatch for overwatch opinions outside of early overwatch 1 when everyone was still dumb and bad at the game... all of this was a bunch of nada. Just incorrect.
The Overwatch movie just dropped
The real Overwatch movie was the video responses we made along the way
I watched the whole thing. It’s a really good video. May be his best. Crazy how being a little pissed off produces our best work
and it's a horror movie, IMDb rating: 1/10
Tank was my best role in Overwatch before Overwatch 2. Ive given it nearly 2 years now, but I cannot bring myself to play it anymore. Doing my daily challenges queueing for all roles is so miserable, as 85% I get tank. All of my characters I enjoyed playing, Dva, Zarya, Hog, Ball, all lost so much of their identity. I'm forced now to counter swap the enemy tank, if i dont I am throwing. This is not nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, tank went from my most played role, to nearly my lowest. Support is not far from catching up now. Even if you win by counterswapping, i dont feel good about it.
Unsubbed.
All I hear is wah wah wah 6v6 was too hard I'm not smart enough to play it
Overwatch was meant to be skill based. they just sold out to casual pussies
Was higher rank in the far easier more-MOBA format, but don't let that evidence stop you!
Bringing up a single streamer to prove one of your points is very confusing and not especially convincing. Is that not an outlier? Or at the very least anectodal evidence?
You are delusional. You must live in a copium bubble.
A team of a few streamers made a 6v6 custom mode aimed for balance and competition in like 1~2 weeks and it worked well. If they can do it for free it shouldn't be a problem for a "indie" deve like Blizzard.
The only thing that I agree is that the problem is NOT 5v5. The actual problem is roleQ forcing hulking solo tank.
I only play openQ and a 212 / 221 feels 100x better than roleQ 122 specially considering that tanks are nerfed on openQ.
As for hero bans its not viable yet. They have to add way more tanks and sups to the game before adding a hero ban system. Well unless they kept it limited to only banning dps characters.
Queue times on games with roleQ will always be a issue. Games with roleQ always have that role that has a huge queue time and there is no working around it. If you want to play the popular role you have to wait or try your luck on openQ.
Balancing the game around queue times is a huge mistake. The game must be balanced around fairness, competitivity and matches being fun.
Have you ever stop to think that you might be the flat earther in this whole situation?
I mean, even if they did add Hero Bans (mostly looking at DPS Hero Bans), knowing the Players, they are gonna ether Ban Heroes like Sombra, Hanzo (debatably) or Widow, which is fair enough, they completely change how the Game is played, I mean, as soon as there’s a Widow, the game basically becomes like Rainbow 6 Siege lol, or they are gonna Ban Heroes that they just don’t like, like Junkrat, Torb, Symm, Genji, ect ect, but Hero Bans would be completely terrible on Tank or Support, more so Tank, as Tank because of 5v5, already get punished enough.
I hate that we only ever talk about changes to the game instead of additions. I want a clan system where I can invite people to my clan and then play 5v5 matches against other clans increasing or decreasing our clan rank, I want a map editor, I want to select Weapon skins of Legendary skins I allready have on other skins, I want more ranked gamemodes that are available permanantly like ranked lucioball or winstonball or please for the love of god competetive Prop Hunt, I want to decide what game modes I want to play so I never have to play Push ever again
I want to do more than just play ranked 5v5 so I can make my Gun Green
yess! I want them to add more stuff to the game, but I feel like they won't do that if they have to restart over from scratch and shove 6v6 back into the game adding more years of just balance patches
@@kappa1990 lmao I mean they did that with 5v5 for no reason so who knows
also ow1 had way more QOL features..
I like what you said, but ranked prop hunt would be terrible lol. I loved prop hunt, I played it so much. But if it were ranked, people would be constantly hard grinding it, and know exactly when a prop is not where it is supposed to be to be.
such this, idgaf about the balance of 5v5 ranked role queue, i never play that shit, let me pick what god damn maps I play on for fucks sake
Fax
blizzard's sucker opinions dosent matter. Go buy yourself some dignity and respect yourself.
OW1 was 6v6 and was just way more fun, no contest. 6v6 would be the only thing to even slightly convince me to try the game again, despite the greedy cash grab it has become
Hated 6v6 played it for years, I find 5v5 way more fun and I'm a Gold pleb. I miss lootboxes and actual events, that's it.
How is a free game a cash grab?
@@davidduran82
Google micro-transactions it’ll blow your mind
@@davidduran82 selling free skins for 20€ is a scam
@@davidduran82skins cost $20, has half baked campaign modes for $10 each, for 80% of this game really op heroes like Kiriko, Mauga, and Illari were locked in a battle pass. is it that hard
The amount of gaslighting and outright logical fallacies coming from Freedo is insane. And then he has the gall to condescendingly talk down to others and claim they're committing logical fallacies. Just stop brother
Name one
You definitely weren’t “critical of overwatch 2”
You were one of the biggest marketing tools for OW2, you can say whatever you want to say but we all know what the time is lol
You should take the Dunning Kruger line and apply it to yourself because there are a lot of players better than yourself, who have been in the game just as long and know the game to the level or more than you do, that disagree with a lot of what you said here. It's one thing to have a discussion, but for you to have this kind of arrogance and dismissiveness in how you address people with the opposite opinion that you have speaks volumes. "I know how to not say false, fallacious things" bro you contradicted yourself multiple times lmao
Micheal Jordan was a terrible coach for this exact reason you're missing.
It really seems like at this point Freedos ONLY argument is "we dont have enough tank players for 6V6 and Queue times would be bad"
But like, The queue times are bad RIGHT NOW in 5V5 because the role is miserable to play. Its not complicated, make the role fun to play and introduce a wide variety of characters and people will play your role. NOBODY enjoys counter swapping ( except for Freedo i guess )
I never complained about tanking in overwatch 1. I did wish that we had more tanks to play though since at the time the DPS role was so overcrowded in comparison. Now with overwatch 2 we have more tanks than ever! Too bad i cant play the ones i want since ill just get rock paper scissored into a hog mirrormatch though!
Queue times are approx 2x as good. There are many arguments. 6v6 had oppressive metas the entire time and loads of complaints too. Damage being irrelevant while being the most popular role being chief among them. It's not about having an "argument" why do you think an "argument" matters when it comes to facts. I can't argue against facts, unless I use wishful thinking which I refuse to do. I live in reality.
Judging by the overwhelming dislike ratios you've gotten on every single one of your 5V5 videos, you clearly do not live in reality Freedo.
Queue times are only marginally better. tank is an instant queue while DPS and support is usually 7-10 minutes for me in Plat. Which is a mute point anyways. You 5V5ers constantly talk about. Overwatch 1 queue times being bad as if the format was the reason. When the real reason was it was a 60$ game that didn't get any updates for 2 years straight and was left to rot with a bad meta.
5V5 has literally had an oppressive meta every season while making tank miserable to play the entire time, but Have fun living in "rEaLiTy".
@@Theclooch Exactly, they're marginally better. Hardly worth a worse version of the game we all loved.
@@YourOverwatchlet's start 2025 with 4v4 ow since all the tank mains will quit again and make the queue times sky rocket
@@Theclooch yea the que times are in no way fixed and with them on insisting in keeping the game unfun theyre just going to get worse as more and more people give up on the role if not the game entirely. just today had to deal with fuckin 19 minute ques at 8pm so fuckin prime time as support.
common freedo L
This guy is smoking rocks.
Weak analogy, calling 6v6ers flat earthers. You spend most of the time attacking the 6v6 thinkers themselves and flaming them because of their opinions rather than critiquing their arguments with objectivity in mind. Claiming nostalgia clouds 6v6ers judgement is dishonest when it has only been 5v5 for ~ 3yrs. 6v6ers also acknowledge that there are still problems with the formula, but the problems with 6v6 are to a smaller extent and/or less frustrating than 5v5.
You claim that samito is contributing to an “us versus them mentality” which I can see why people would believe that, but I would argue that, this video has done that more so. Because, While you bring up genuine critiques of 6v6, you attack the people who hold the 6v6 position more. You have poisoned the well by assuming their thinking is flawed and stating it right off the bat. When it must be debated if it is or not. Whereas Samito and others have targeted the 5v5 format its self, leaving out anything to do with the people who hold the position of 5v5.
When you criticize the people and not their belief you contribute to the polarization of the community.
Made points, pointed to evidence, yet you're focusing on your feelings. The entire Flat Earther comparision is apt if you respond _this_ way. The "problem" with 6v6 was that it was literally unplayable, as in, you couldn't queue for it reasonably in the vast majority of the games life. Whether with terrible comps in open queue for 3 years or waiting in queue for the next 3. I literally say the opposite of the things you're claiming I said. The analogy isn't weak, it's quite literally perfect _right now_ lol. See how you're defending the "us" here? That's the entire poiunt of the comparison my guy. Watch the documentary please.
@@YourOverwatch you don't understand the meaning of "literally". maybe it was *figuratively* unplayable in top500, but as a plat/diamond player it was fine
@@YourOverwatchsee i dont understand how you can attack an argument for only applying to the top 3 percent of a player base but then use an argument that only applies to the top 3 percent of the same player base.
queue times were more of a problem, yes. but in gold/plat/diamond the most i had to wait was 10 mins solo and like 15 mins duo with 2 dps. plus being a tank main i really didn’t deal with it much so for me at least it was completely playable if not more playable than ow2
You can literally open a can of sense and dump it over this man's shiny head and he still will never acknowledge a good point, but instead attack your pov. Truly weak af. Dude's personality is stuck in bronze irl
Diamond dps queue times were often 10+ minutes. That will NOT fly in a market with far more f2p competition and now more hero shooter competition. So no actually, literally unplayable is exactly the right word. I know what the word means and am using it correctly ty all vm
No way people genuinely like 5v5 more, this game isn’t fun to play anymore
i'm someone. i played constantly since launch of OW1 and i say 5v5 was the best change the game ever had. So there.
@@dyamonde9555 same here, i loved ow1 but i don't want 2 tanks again lol
U can lie all u want, but anyone who actually played ow in ow1 knows 5v5 is dogshit... nice try tho @dyamonde9555
@@fullnelson4986bro I started playing ow in 2017 and came back a few months before ow2 dropped and I can say that those months when the game was basically dead was better than ow2’s peak😓
"We can't do 6v6 again because it's TOO HARD. We HAVE to do MY IDEAL Overwatch because NOBODY ELSE understands overwatch but me"
That's how this video came off.
6v6 was literally a decent balance patch away from being much more ideal than anything 5v5 would even hope to match. This is why people dislike your arguments, you sound exactly like the "you think you do, but you don't" guy at blizzard. May as well shut the game down since apparently fixing things is just to hard unless it's Fredo's idea.
Also calling Samito a nephew is wild. You seriously trying to lil bro someone that eclipses you? Tf are you on? Is this what keeps does to you?
Freedo, I agree you have fought back against Blizzard for years and I could feel your pain when PVE was cancelled. This is why I’m active in your chat and participate in the inevitable 6v6 discussions (also because I always wanted to watch you talk about the game live!)
I will put it in the simplest way possible that I can’t in a back and forth on stream:
***OW’s issue regardless of format has always been defensive/sustain creep, whether it’s AOE healing, immortalities, or CC. The common theme of these attributes especially when combined on one hero is FREE VALUE. Heroes need clear weaknesses so they can be outplayed, and 5v5 makes this WORSE and FORCES this bad design which degrades the gameplay.***
Without an offtank:
* Supports had no fun in the beta era because they were exposed and had to interact with the FPS aspects more than ever and had to get ridiculously buffed and given the absurd support passive which is better than any version of DPS passive and both tank passives. The funny thing is that supports were already about as good as DPS in duels in OW1 but now they had to be outright better. Brig inspire was unaddressed because 5v5 makes it harder to abuse, BUT IT’S STILL A BAD MECHANIC! They doubled and TRIPLED down on immos with Kiriko/Lifeweaver because these types of undo abilities are necessary to extend teamfights to not end instantly.
* Tank then becomes miserable due to this so we get immense tank powercreep. With one tank per team there are only 2 options- either 1 tank is hard meta or the counterpick-athon ensues. Nobody except Freedo likes counterpicking or at least feeling FORCED to counterpick, and every tank being meta has sucked: JOATS, Zarya bubble/suzu cycling sustain meta, gigahog one shot meta, Doomfist 2 weeks meta, unkillable ball meta, Ramattra forever meta, Orisa deployment/sustain meta, AFK Mauga mirrors meta… every single one is trash. As for the 3 other tanks that didn’t have a fun sucking period of dominance in ladder/QP: Dva DM is now a ludicrous yet necessary 4 seconds, Winston is either counterpicked by 5 players or just endlessly dives the backline for free, and Rein is only viable when given too many stats. There is no ideal balance for tanks in 5v5.
* DPS then becomes yet again an irrelevant role (wow looks like both the support designs and gigatanks are trash who knew!) and so the devs have to make bronze players be able to land shots, extend TTK with HP changes (making tanks even MORE GIGA and non-interactive), and give them an OP DPS passive to force relevancy. All of this so that we can have the extended teamfights/brawls OW made its name on without too much sustain. This also drastically lowered the skill expression which is the fun of DPS. Before you could 2 tap someone with a large % of the heroes and now it takes 3 hits (this applies to tanks/supports too, Ana is now a 4 shot instead of 3). Even though the shots are easier to hit, there are SO MANY moments you only have time to land 2 hits and the opportunity is lost, making it much harder to come back from a deficit, or even feel the difference when you are mechanically better than someone. The interactions in the game are feeling more and more guaranteed, which contributes to the counterpicking issue (soft counters feel even more like hard counters and hard counters feel impossible) but also- why even play this game when it feels like then results are predetermined? And now we are back in the spot where sustain is increasing again!
So in 5v5, the roles TRAP eachother. It’s a 3-way standoff between them where one role will ALWAYS lose out when another gains. Tank too strong? Other roles get ran over and tank diff determines games. DPS too strong? The game becomes TDM and any MOBA aspect or OWness is lost. Support too strong? The game becomes boring for everyone except the AFK andies spamming heals into their tank. In 6v6, you can remove the role passives, revert all the stupid 5v5 changes (Ana sleep on tanks 3.5 sec while 5 sec vs other heroes, Cass having dmg reduction when doing anything, Hog/Moira abilities in ult, Orisa not-headshottable in fortify again, etc.) and finally address what broke the game originally (alter functionality of immortality abilities, finally address Brig inspire mechanics, give heroes clear weaknesses again, NO FREE VALUE abilities/heroes).
I play every role, and at this point I have little fun on any of them, it feels like squeezing water from a stone. Sadly Genji, Doomfist, Reinhardt, Lucio, etc. are not in any other videogame and are trapped inside OW2. If only I could go back and play OW1 or a 6v6 “OW3”… Apparently it’s too much work to make 6v6 in OW2 but “some guys” were able to balance 6v6 better than Blizzard did in 6 years. All Blizzard has to do is swallow their pride (or even blame the failures on the old dev team) and use the ZHSKW patch notes and it could be out on 1 week and better than any balance patch we had in OW1. It’d be like adding 10 heroes all at once to OW1, which would be a bigger impact than both OW2 launch and PVE release combined.
6v6 doesn’t fix the game, it just ALLOWS us to finally fix the game.
Freaking comment of the decade here, blizzard hire this one. Freedo your vid should have been on this rather than saying "we all want a different version of overwatch" then proceeding to compare people who like 6v6 more with flat earthers, so a very not subtle way of just saying people with that opinion are wrong. I agree with many of your points Freedo of bad things that were in 6v6, but to give up on it being fixable because OW1 Devs didn't manage to fix it is silly. A Dev team who are busy and likely just trying to keep the game stable plus reacting to the loudest voices at the time. Anyway people will play tank if it's fun right? Personally I think looking at limiting the impact of tank synergy, the changes they have already done to reduce barriers, and leaning towards more tank design that's just fun like Queen (smaller hitbox and heathpool, more damage and risk reward) is probably the right direction. Huge character models and hitboxes require more health, and healing in OW has always been too much that it can make plays feel less impactful. I'd suggest 2 tanks again, revert HP pools or even reduce a bit but convert a bit more health to armour, reduce the larger tanks size, buff armour a bit, but most importantly give the tools to the community to balance their own 6v6 mode. If a chunk of the community want it why not. If it's better than 5v5, win. If not, you still have 5v5.
I respect your opinion but you do not speak for me. I miss my other tank teammates 😢
Freedo and Samito collaborating on the endless content loop lmao
Fr ow has been dry lately
Im sad to see that this issue is causing such tension between them. 5v5 splitting emongg from flats, now its coming for freedo and samito.
How discussions work?
@@fettbub92it didn’t split emong & flatts lol
@@joshuacollins9316I think he means that they can’t duo tank anymore
Bad take
as an OW1 tank main, i just miss 6v6 for not feeling the pressure and heat from my team for being the only tank in OW2 5v5. i loved trying to synergize with the other tank on my team. i feel like 6v6 matches there is less consequences for having a bad player on the team. i don't care what changes to the game and balance updates need to be done, but i REALLY want to see 6v6 return in some sort of capacity. It doesn't have to be the same way as it was in OW1, but I want 6v6 in OW2 somehow.
i'm trying to stay open-minded, but I have yet to hear a decent argument from the 5v5 side that addresses this issue, and it's personally my biggest issue with the 5v5 format.
there are multiple 6v6 discord servers for you my friend. I dont think i can post them here because it might detect as spam but try and find one for your region.
I still feel like you can syngergize tho :o
instead of synergizing with other tank your synergizing with your dps and supports.
like I never played tank in OW1 but now it's the only role that I play.
@kappa1990 yeah, I know, but it's just not the same
I hated playing with another tank and much prefer OW2. I find I’m playing more with the team than running around with some bean.
~to be fair~ the "age of 6v6" was when people still played, and had fun.
Whether it was objectively better or not
This. I honestly believe people are just chasing after a high they'll never get again because they'll never be that same person they were all those years ago just learning the game and having fun. I've played the game for 6 years now and yeah, I still have fun, just not the same highs as before because it's become routine. And you could argue that the point of a live service game is to freshen it up every season, but do anything, even the most fun thing for six years straight and you're bound to get a little bored eventually.
dunno bout you, but i still play, and objectively right now i have more fun than i ever had during the 6v6 era. YMMV though.
@@dyamonde9555are you a support player
@@ViktorCallaerts i'm true flex and play whichever position i'm in the mood for on any given evening. Most of my playtime is on support though, and if i had to choose, i'd say my Main is Ana
@@ViktorCallaerts Im a tank player and Im enjoying the game more than I ever had in 6v6. The rein/zarya win/dva duos people dream about happened like 5% of the time back then. What usually happened is your other tank insta-locks hog and youre left thinking how the fuck am I gonna deadlift this game
The TimTheTatman argument is so stupid. He wanted to play cass but Rein Zarya got in the way so he got bored. I want to play Reinhardt now but I can't because no matter what every game they swap to Orisa and I'm deemed useless. What's the argument? All I'm hearing is DPS players get what they want, tanks go fuck yourselves we don't care about your fun
P.S Roadhog does counter Rein and Winston. I think your 1200 games you played on Group up was a lie
THIS
And he doesn't even play ow2! Why cater to ppl that wouldn't even play your game?? LMFAO
This is the same guy that says "people enjoy counter picking" and that "tank is in a balanced state." LOL He's nothing more than a puppet for Blizzard like Flats. You people wouldn't dare speak against the blizzars and the format they've made for OW and that it is an interior version of the original formula. I mean the original 6v6 form won OW GOTY for 2016, yet you blockheads continue to run your head into the wall over and over again with defending 5v5 instead of swallowing the hard pill 💊 that the entire reason for OW2 died over a year ago.
Asking for Bans/draft since 2018 which directly limit the power of counter pick/comps... which by the way were DEVESTATING in OW1 since Brig (2018). What you're misquoting is me saying I prefer to play un-mirrored matchups and you assume I mean I like counter-picking to dominate the game. I wanted bans since Brig, you think counter picking is strong now? You literally couldn't play Tracer vs launch Brig. OW was always designed for this, the free pick format did it in both games.
Okay so after getring some way though your video here, imma interject part way though and say one thing. You say 5v5 is superior to 6v6 and its easier to balence, tonthr point you sort of compair the 6v6 love to that a fragile conspiracy theory. But lemme ask you an important question
If its so supperiot and easier to balence...why isnt it balenced yet? How are we this far into 5v5, to thr point that sveveral huge system reworks and role reworks, had to be made to accomodate it? Even with you yourself, have gone on record to say tsnk is thr best its ever been, stresm tank, and then have a gutterally brutal experience. And im not saying that 6v6 is flawless, it damn well had flaws.But i dont find this argument to be genuine when thr reality seems to showcase the opposite and the same level if not more frustation at thr new format then the old.
And speakibg of the format, while i will admit that im partcial to 6v6 and biased toward favoring it, its because it was more *fun*. Even at the worst moments, the game when it was 6v6 was more *fun* than the worst moments that 5v5 has to offer with not as higher highs and deeper lows than 6v6. But truthfully, i care more about fun regardless of the format. Im not claiming to have a silver bullet catch-all awnser here, but frankly, *fun* and *genuine* enjoyment of a game shoukd be TOP priority regardless of ehat thr balence is like. I dont like overwatch 1 because of pure nostolgia, i liked it because every time i booted up the game, even when i was having horrible luck and absolutely being trashed on, i was having more f u n than i do by just playing overwatch 2 to any capacity.
The nostalgia argument is pointless for the most part. We had a period of time where both OW1 and OW2 were online. No amount of "ItS jUsT nOsTaLgIa" will change the fact I quit playing the OW2 beta in favor of the live game which was more fun for me.
Spell check please
"why isn't it balanced" when the only consistently shit pick in the game has been Reinhardt for 4 seasons lmao
you must have forgotten the days when you needed an entire comp built around them to make half the DPS actually viable and the entire role was just counterpicking or locking Tracer/Sombra, or when not locking Bap/Brig/Lucio meant you ate shit on most maps
OW1 had way more throw picks, you just never noticed because you didn't have a scoreboard to pinpoint who was fucking up
There is no such thing as a perfectly balanced game. And Overwatch is actually a pretty balanced game
29:30 No. tanks weren’t more powerful in 6v6 they were more fun to play. In what world is roadhog in OW1 more powerful than the roadhog we have now???
No amount of words can make me not miss 6v6. Tanks need someone else on the field to work with. They did it for overwatch League and that's dead sooooooo.
ive listened to all your points, but i have to say you contradict yourself too many times for me to stay on the same page. for example, you said in 6v6, tank synergies required certain tanks to only be played with their synergy. then said that in ow2, tanks can hold their own with their reworks. adding 6v6 in ow2 does not mean going back to overwatch 1. which would mean any tank could hypothetically be played in 6v6, despite harsh synergies. the reason the "tribalism" arose with 6v6 is because we were constantly being ridiculed, dismissed, and invalidated. the cooler, newer overwatch 2 was in town and 6v6ers were an embarrassment and representation of the lame, dead overwatch 1 game. thats why we banded together and desperately tried to prove our point that we actually liked overwatch 1 more than overwatch 2. but its still not enough. 5v5ers continue to try to invalidate our opinions how theres supposedly one objective truth. apparently fun is measured by the loudest opinions. but its a lost fight now that marvel rivals is here. enjoy overwatch 2 in its simplicity aka emptiness.
There are TRUE trade offs, yes. None of which you have addressed in this comment, almost as if you ignored every point and instead have your feelings hurt -- you don't seem to realize that you're displaying tribalism in every word of this comment while not really hearing anything said. Literally the OPPOSITE of what you claim I said, is what's actually in the video, imagine that, imgaine how far off the mark you can be to say the OPPOSITE of the text of the video. Name a contradiction please, because being upset for calling out tribalism, then telling me how your feeelings are hurt and you had to band together... bro that's what tribalism is lol you're proving my point.
@@YourOverwatch i thought about rewatching every part of your video a few times to reinforce my comment, but halfway typing i thought to myself, do i even care? its not about feelings. i think you are insecure and are projecting in every way possible. trust me, its easy to read your tone. your only valid points are queue times, visual clutter, and difficulty to attract fps players. maybe its the way you frame your arguments, but even when you present your opinions, or "realities", you solidify my bias for the moba gameplay aspects. im unsure who youre trying to convince here. saying things like, overwatch now feels like an fps and not overly complicated. but we just want overwatch. that game they deleted and dont allow us access to anymore. you mentioned how in ow1, it was harder for newer players to learn the game because of 2 tanks prohibiting solo positioning, which is why ow2 is better for newer players. then later you say it was easy for tank players in ow1 since they didnt have to do much, where in ow2 tanks have to learn way more with their abilities, which you argue is more intuitive since it requires more skill? it seems like you want dps running rampant, since they are the majority and majority = more money for your content right? and you want supports to be safer, since they stay quiet in the background? us tank players know we're marginalized. at this point its not about bringing that extra tank back. its about getting everyone to admit tanks are hated and unwanted by the golden children of ow2.
Why are you even commenting than if you don't care holy dude @@salinaember9527
@@salinaember9527 one quick thing... he doesnt eeven get to have the queue times argument... if we had f2p and FUN tanks like ram, queen, and some people believe mauga the queue times in ow1 would not be bad in addition to this fact guess what... whenever I do play ow2 the few times a year at this point I do because the game is so significantly worse I have the same fucking queue times
@@TheeRedNightmore people doesn’t mean better queues. Only percentile matter, we are 100 or 100.000, if only 1% wants to play tank, the queues would be practically the same
Dogshit take. Why wouldn't creators or pro players have more understanding of the game they sell their souls to? You are a casual, so you by default know much less about overwatch than the creators or pro players who have grinded this game like a 9-5.
5v5 has only one benefit that makes the game queues faster, with many tradeoffs that could be overall summarized as making the game less fun: like making 1 role more stressful, making the game less fun to that population, counter-swapping meta, terrible balancing to accommodate the new format, new format making some tanks absolutely useless due to the format changes. These are examples of losing tank matchups: Dva vs zarya, zarya vs winston, rein vs everything, everything except hog and mauga vs hog, no counterplay, only counterswap. Not chess, it's checkers/tictactoe.
Supports make the game aspect of killing people, torture in this format, because the tanks get healed so much and so fast. The only way to slow that down is to play ana, since she is the only one with an anti heat on cd. This mechanic also gets countered by immortality effects. Baptiste and kiriko have team immortality, and kiriko has cleanse on top of that, on cooldown, making killing people difficult, since they have so many escapes. The list of tradeoffs that 5v5 created to get faster queue times go on, with dps characters too. Hanzo is boof now, genji blade is garbage, sojourn is free damage, reaper can't kill fast enough. It's funny that you are talking shit about 6v6 ideas, but you're getting ratioed by your own twitter poll.
Your take is even more dogshit
@@MrGrreatness Then you are welcome to prove how dogshit it is. If you could even provide a good take with good points and logic flow, then I will wave the white flag. Bring it on.
@@8753likeaboss It's dogshit because all you do is list what you think are negatives to 5v5, then sit here and expect people to tell you that A. you're wrong (which goes nowhere because it's your opinion) or B. everything wrong with 6v6 (which goes nowhere because you'll probably just say "nah those weren't issues)
So why should I waste my time when you're bringing such a one sided, unalterable opinion to the table?
@@MrGrreatness But here’s the thing, it’s not just what I think. Most people in the community thinks this. And this is supported if you looked at the poll that YourOverwatch made about format. 5v5 to 6v6 had a ratio of nearly 1:2, which means that 2/3 of the community watching him views 5v5 as a mistake. Plus look at the comment section to this video, ignoring the bashing on Freedo for his tone of disrespect or otherwise, everyone else agrees with me.
As for the 5v5 format, I only listed a few of the tradeoffs and logic to why changing it hurt the game so badly and broke it. 5v5 issues at the core are that it the tanks weren’t designed for it, nor the format don’t fit the game. This is shown with how choosing the tanks are like picking pokemon, all you have to do are pick the weaknesses to gain an advantage. But it is ridiculous because if thats all it takes to win, and I am sure that pokemon at least have the ability to fight back if they have the mismatch, it means the pokemon have more counterplay options than a dva comp vs a zarya comp. There are more tradeoffs to this new format than benefits to the 5v5, and I haven’t listed them all out. But that’s exactly why it drowns out the issues in 6v6.
The only issues in 6v6 that people argue is that the metas sucked like goats or dive, and double shield. But those were fixable, and all changed by balancing, which took too long because blizzard balance team was pretty mid. Balancing is an issue in both formats and are similar. But the difference is that 5v5 balancing could not change how there only 3-4 tanks max that are used because how much they bring to the table.
All the 6v6 metas were changed or erased when blizzard put balance changes to destroy meta dominance. The time before goats, and at the “best patch of overwatch”you had many different various lineups like rein zarya, orisa hog, monkey dva, dva rein, all runnable at high elo. At low elo, the meta mattered less, but you could still play anything and had the chance to win, at the very least not get completely steamrolled every game if you were getting counter picked.
Counterpicking was a thing in 6v6, but tanks wouldn’t always need to do this every few rounds, and swaps were more split between the team, instead of the one tank in ow2.
Plus the extra tank, with weaker stats means less pressure for your team to solely focus all resources on one person, and the ability to kill enemy tanks with strategy by forcing out of position, on the opposite side of this spectrum.
Then there is Tank synergy, which made tanks go on mics if they really wanted to win, because they were happy. Wouldn’t you say vc usage in comp lobbies went down since ow2 released? It’s because the tank role sucks, and since that’s the case, tank mains gonna keep quitting the game, and that snowball effect will be that queue times may even spike back up.
How many tank players quit overwatch since overwatch 2, compared to timthetatman quitting overwatch 1? Hell, more people are quitting overwatch 2. But the reason why my argument looks one sided and set in stone, it’s because there are much more arguments of why 5v5 are bad compared to 6v6 being bad. You haven’t even gave us any arguments to why you think 5v5 is superior to 6v6, you should waste your time and rebut these claims if you can, otherwise I may win the case.
Dead game is dead. The end... nothing just has replaced it yet for people to finally move on...
how can you say for the 6v6 side to not use "outliers" like the October 2020 patch to our argument then not 30 seconds later YOU USE AN OUTLIER in TimTheTatman showing ONE CONTENT CREATOR who left the game and his reason for leaving Overwatch wasnt tank synergies he complained specifically about DVa and Winston not ALL tank synergies just that one that had been meta for months and months on end (SORT OF LIKE ORISA IN OVERWATCH 2). Bap and Orisa players didnt hate the October 2020 patch cause they couldnt play their heroes they hated it because they had to actually LEARN how to play those heroes optimally just like the few Brig players during that patch.
You contradict yourself multiple times in this video saying things like only the 3% of players like October 2020 cause the rest were still playing Rein Zarya in the metal ranks and later in the video you talk about how if you didnt play the "Proper" tank synergy in Overwatch 1 in the metal ranks you would get rolled. Which one is it? Were they playing the meta or not? Because in my Gold/Silver games in OW1 i barely ever faced Double Shield. The Queue times argument is absurd because the same issue with no one queueing for tanks HAS HAPPENED IN THIS GAME TOO. I haven't played this game in weeks and it is sad to see what this game has become.
As a high plat player I can say that over 50% of my games i play in comp and quick play are just absolute steamrolls and some of the most boring gameplay i have ever had the displeasure of putting myself through. The game isn't fun that is why people are leaving in droves. No one likes things like the obnoxious Mauga meta or the constant nerfing of characters BUT GIVING THOSE SAME CHARACTERS COMPENSATION BUFFS. ROADHOG IS 800 HP NOW unless hes an absolute brickhead you can never kill him now. I have not played my favorite role Tank in months because it is so boring just swapping every game to play whatever counters the enemy tank it has sucked the individuality of you as a player out of the role. DPS is just as miserable at times with heroes like Widowmaker in the game who even if they are shit makes an entire team switch comps around her just to have a chance.
They have tried everything in their power to try and make this format work and I went into the new game with optimism on how they would accomplish the new format. However, we are at a point nearly TWO YEARS into the games life and Tank is still as miserable to play as it was when the game released. It is time to shift the game back to 6v6 which won't be perfect or instantly make the game the best game on the market. But it will allow for a better gaming experience for all ranks and actually give players a reason to grind the game on ALL ROLES.
I don't dislike you for your opinion or what you prefer, but the way you talk is extremely condescending and belittling phrasing things like you're talking to a bunch of toddlers and acting like people who wish for the format to go back to 6v6 are these brainless idiots or "we know too much about the game and your ego makes you short sighted" while you act like you are a know-it-all and everyone else but you is wrong.... as you contradict multiple statements like said above.
Quoting Sam's confused replies does not a comment make. YO lost 2/3rd of its stats due to Overwatch moving farther from a shooter. Watch the next video.
Not a contradiction, he and you misunderstood the point entirely
I think 5v5 messed up the tank experience. In 6v6 there was way more complexity in how tanks could approach situations or how to deal with yourself being countered outside of a goats or double shield meta. There was still a little bit of rock paper scissors, but i’d say there were more ways around it, like how dva could play around zar with a rein on her team, and it would feel just a bit more winnable winnable. Now, dva would just get hard countered and have to essentially switch off.
Even more, it vastly increased the viability between tanks. Back in OW1, ball was already often considered a throw pick with two tanks, but at least you had the other tank that could cover for your team while ball players did their thing. Almost same thing for road hog. Road hog was either op or fairly mediocre. Now, since the 5v5 change, he’s either been op or dogshit. Sigma has become extremely situational instead of being a decent to strong pick usually. I could go on, point being that the subtracted player has taken away a layer of complexity and chemistry for the game that albeit was initially fun, but as they kept adding more to the game, it severely hindered the tank experience, putting more pressure on the one, which either made them way too strong or way too weak. imo
They just needed to have a main and sub tank role.
It would stop double shield and goats.
And it would allow Winston dva, hog to use their skillset without babysitting the team,
And they could support rein sig and orisa.
I’ve been watching your videos since I got into overwatch in 2018. I think this video is a well made argument for 5v5 but I have not been converted. I liked the idea of 5v5 until I played it. Tank is less fun in my opinion. An argument for 5v5 I hate is that it can be balanced and 6v6 can’t. If you can’t balance 6v6 there’s no way you can balance 5v5 and if you can then I’m certain you can also balance 6v6. The Queue time issue sucked but was the right answer to sever the tank role? I do like that you point out that 6v6 is not a magic fix all solution cuz I agree. But tank just feels so miserable when you have to do it all alone. One last point is if people don’t like tank, 5v5 makes all the tanks more tanky to compensate so it does not remove any frustration. Just now only one player has to suffer the pain of that awful tank experience. I don’t know the answer but I would love an official trial of OW2 6v6 gameplay
I don't think either will be "balanced" in a way that keeps the community happy long term. Needing to add new heroes gaurantees the game will NOT be balanced as adjustements to the entire game state are often needed when a new hero is any good. 5v5 naturally promotes strategy diversity because you can counter pick -- not just the tank, but you can counter anything on the enemy team if you wanted to, the community just simplifies that to "counter the tank" when it need not be the case.
@@YourOverwatchThe community counters the tank because its the 1 thing standing between a guaranteed win in that team fight because it’s the only one. In 6v6 if you lost a tank you still had another one to at least have a chance, whereas now if your tank dies, you either instantly trade their tank or you die too
@@YourOverwatch thanks for the reply! I think you said it best when you said you can’t please everyone. The game is still fun for a lot of people right now and that means something. We still play and love the game no matter what issues pop up.
It's okay to have shit opinions but speaking for the players of this game? that is a bit too far, anything you say after hearing your statement "i enjoy counterpicking and i'm sure a lot of people do too" is just gonna be disregarded by the community from now on, you are cooked.
Why do the other guys on the podcast not talk about weird he is being about this topic he sounds like the overly political uncle
for queue times, they havent fixed the issue of tank not being enjoyable, they've just made it to where you only need one poor soul lmao
Tank synergy was what made tank fun. You mentioned you dont like the teamwork aspects of the game. But politely, OW is a team game because of the different roles. When the game turns into a deathmatch 1v1, its very boring, and if youre a tank, you feel useless. Like if I just wanted a shooter... I'd go play one of the countless choices out there. But that's not why i play OW. There is no other game like Overwatch. At least until Marvel Rivals comes out lol.
Amen
OW2 is still a team game and requires team work. Just not as much as OW1
OW2 is awful and stale game. S9 patch made it even worst. I been playing less of OW than before.
no 4 minutes into the video and I cant create enough accounts for the amount of dislikes i'd like to give because I disagree with all that was said already
5vs5 just the worse format all around, washed down boring version of the unique game we once had.
I liked 6v6 because one bad tank wasn’t as catastrophic as it is now.
Having a rein and sigma/orisa on the enemy team was boring as fuck, barrier shooting simulator lmfao
yoru actually capping, it was chaos, i dont miss it at all
All they had to do was implement a barrier clause where if you pick one tank with a barrier, the other is locked out to thr other player or something. Almost like a sub-role queue within roles...hey wait a second--
I feel like you forget times when a rein player would get a hog main as a 2nd tank on Kings Row in defense (or vice versa) while enemy team has a full dive tank duo. The balance was shaky af when you don't have a proper tank/supp picks
@@luigitails54"it was chaos" go play kirby
So what happened to the other ppl that love counter swapping too? They yearn for this format and the whole debate is silly, no one wants 6v6 back. Bruh, stop s1mping for Bliz because it looks like the general consensus in the comments say otherwise. No ones likes their games being steam rolls or doing the steam rolling, no ones likes playing tank anymore because blizz goes out their way to make tank unfun and feels like a thankless chore; and that sentiment is growing. I swear, its always non-tank mains saying, " everything is fine," when its not.
It would be funny to see OW1 have a bigger player base than ow2, seeing the direction they took OW2 in general. Nothing but broken promises, but updated Skin STORE!
Theres a reason why they took your ability to play OW1.
6v6 or game over. Said it ow2 beta.. a year later NO one can stand playing more then 1 hr a week it's SO bad 5v5.
5v5 is actually trash.
So with the devs finally acknowledging 6v6, you still gonna call an entire subsection of the community “flat earthers”?
I really don’t think them doing a 6v6 play test would ‘Open my Eyes’ to how bad it was, it was much better- all of my friends who used to play the game have abandoned it and the new friends I made all think the game is cooked and are starting to play other games but I’m sure I’ll ’Open my eyes’ to the truth that this game is the best game ever eventually….right
PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEACH!
Imagine sitting though this video and ranting that 6v6 are flat eathers is wild.
I think there is a miscommunication of goals here. When I watch Samito videos, it seems like his goal is to make tank fun to play and play against. And he argues that goal is impossible in 5v5 because the stats and abilities needed to make tanks viable ruins the fun of DPS and Support. That goal is inherently subjective, but this channel is only focussed on objective metrics like winrates and pickrates.
For example, Samito reacted to a video of Yeattle playing reworked Wrecking Ball. In that video, Yeattle ultimately won, but felt miserable because he had to do so much work to not die *and* pressure cart while getting Brig booped, hacked, and hooked. With a Zarya bubble or just another tank to draw attention, there would be chances to catch his breath OR the enemy investing all those cooldowns into him would let the other tank make a play (so at least one tank player would be having fun). Conversely, Sam pointed out that the "giga-tank" Yeatle Wrecking Ball never died despite all the resources the other team put into taking him out. So neither the tank player or the entire enemy team probably enjoyed that game. Wrecking Ball was balanced enough to not throw that game, but the person using him feeling angry and exhausted at their win is not good for the game. I'd imagine the argument for why Roadhog is still "not working" in 5v5 is along the same lines.
I don't have strong opinions on 6v6 vs 5v5. I grew kind of apathetic to actually playing Overwatch after they admitted to lying about the PvE. As someone that plays only now-and-then and is is beyond casual, I'd lean more towards the Samito metric of success as healthy for the game long-term. Just because nothing is broken doesn't mean people are having fun - just like in that dead Quake game that was referenced. The fact that I don't feel compelled to even pick up the game 2 days in a row means the gameplay isn't that addictive. I've been more drawn to playing Splatoon 3 tbh.
In 5v5, it doesn't seem like tanks can be both fun to play and fun to play against. If they are fun to play, they are impossible to kill. If they are fun to play against, they are too hard to use without getting blown up. In 6v6, all tanks were killable YET they could become exponentially more tanky with teamwork. That teamwork breeds comradery and a sense of friendship when you are really in sync. The tradeoff was that if everyone selfishly stuck to the character they wanted to play, then you could get destroyed by "synergies" on the enemy team. The fact that deathmatch modes were never that popular outside of queue-time warm-ups leads me to believe that most players preferred the "team comp builder RPG" to just solo-carrying with shooter mechanics. People didn't just like using the characters for kills; the teamwork was one of Overwatch's main selling points.
TL;DR I don't think you can only use objective facts to judge the success of a game the way you'd look at stats for something practical like a car. It's not just about being functional. The entire point is for people to have fun, and fun is always subjective.
THIS IS THE COMMENT!!! Love fredo but he's got it wrong!! Making things simpler doesn't make it better! As a Tank I DO NOT want to be solo responsible for Team wins that's total BS! Its not fun. Yeattle was Stressed TF out. Being a tank feels like a damn second job. Killing Off tanks was just insane removed RPG formula and team play!! We loved the game because it was difficult and knowledge was power!!!
I'd argue the issue with tanks in 5v5 is the attempted solution to make them feel better to play. They keep increasing their sustain in terms of increasing thier flat health/armor/damage reduction numbers. This makes tanks harder to kill at the absolute skill floor. A dps can hit shot after shot into a tank and feel like they do barely any damage and the solo tank who is getting constantly shot at and cannot avoid bullets with their massive hitbox feel misserable themselves, because they can't do much to not get hit by everything.
There is exception to this though. Look at Junker Queen. A tank seemingly beloved by the community, enjoyable to play and to play into and viable in most situations without many hard counters. There are a lot of reasons for why she is so flexible, but the part I think needs to be focused on is her player model. She has a slimmer player model, and thereby hitbox, than most other tanks, a relatively small head, her posture and movement is such that her head moves around a lot as she moves side-to-side, and she has shout which temporarily increases her movement speed to make it even more challenging to hit her.
I think they should have gone more in this direction in 5v5. Less tanks with huge chunky models, such as Mauga, that you seemingly cannot miss. More tanks with the ability to dodge enemy fire. If you do this, you can give them smaller health pools because you are less likely to be hit with not just damage sources, but CC sources such as sleep dart as well. It would make tanks actually punishable for their mistake, just like a Junkerqueen can actually be killed if she doesn't properly use cover or moves in a straight line, while Mauga can just stand in place and outheal any incoming damage with his busted sustain (that he needs because it's basically impossible to not miss shots on him even if he tried to dodge).
Good comment
Maybe don't poison the well and actively insult the other side if you are trying to convince people makes you sound like Overwatch's version of Moviebob
"i dont like this tribalistic us vs them mentality people have against me with calling me a $hill, we're all a family here."
Uh, no freedo. No were not.
You are one of the biggest voices for change within the overwatch online space. Whether you like it or not, you represent us to some degree and we look up to you to some degree to properly represent how the playerbase is feeling. Whether you want to admit it or not, A LOT of players want 6V6. Theres no way to verify it but it feels like at minimum , half the player base wants 6V6 at this point. I see the comments and dislike ratios EVERYWHERE on all these 5V5 defender videos.
So when you go against the general populous of the game and poorly represent what the game feels like for them, fans are gonna rightfully get mad and call you out for your bad and "$hilly" takes. When you feed us gaslighty arguments about us being "nostalgic" and "mistaken" for thinking 6v6 was more fun for the casual players, people will get mad.
Because the game feels BAD, Freedo. Its not a bad thing to have nostalgia for a system that felt better. Ive been a tank main since october 2016. 5V5 is MISERABLE. It is impossible to balance out counter swapping and that makes the role horrible for me to play.
You can have your opinions on 5V5. Your entitled to them. You can call out samito for poorly managaing the toxicity of his fanbase, thats valid. But i dont think you have the right to be upset for people calling you a $hill when you go out of your way to misrepresent the opinion of how the majority playerbase feels about the game and its balance design.
Love your videos btw. ❤️
Exactly, and this is why the flat earth analogy is toxic. 99% of the population believe that the earth is round. At least 50% of the OW community want 6v6 back when looking at polls and like to dislike ratios, and it doesn't even discount the amount of frustrated players that have quit the game who've disconnected from the community entirely
And the people voted for Brexit too so...
This is called appeal to popularity fallacy, not an argument.
I dispelled LIES the community believed _all_ throughout OW1 as well and will cont to do it now tyvm.
Notice how your comment is all about your feelings and impressions, I don't actually see a point anywhere in this wall of text, other than you don't like it and don't like feeling insulted. You're asking me to represent a factually inaccurate position as the SAME complaints existed, or worse, for tank in OW1 _the entire games life_ . NOBODY EVER SAID you can't think its more fun, you're pulling that from nowhere, not something actually said. The point is we never had enough tanks to populate queues for the game or to function in that idyllic view of 6v6, it didn't exist for any significant length of time.
I never said you had to appeal to popularity lmao. I said you're not justified in being upset about the backlash when you have bad gaslighty arguments and miisrepresent how the player base is feeling about the game.
@Theclooch apparently never meet your heros. Holy sh** his response was so disrespectful to you I'm sorry.
@@eternalblack3183I stg freedo is trying to commit career suicide because he didn't used to be like this