Catholic OCD: What is Lust? More than you might think.
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- Опубліковано 7 гру 2022
- One of the most common concerns and worries that people express again and again is that they feel that they routinely confuse random sexual thoughts and feelings with lust. Because they experience a completely healthy, natural, and indeed blessing from God, a sexual thought, desire, or feeling, they jump to the conclusion that they must be guilty of lust. Most certainly not. Lust is more than a feeling and it has nothing to do with "entertaining" a sexual thought. Lust is rooted in the misuse of power and sexuality. Not one or the other. A misuse of both power and sexual expression.
Stop it. Stop believing that your ocd is telling you the truth. It is not. Seek other answers fearlessly.
Please read Theology of the Body of Pope John Paul II, and search for Theology of the body institute.
Father, this gives me so much hope & I will apply this wisdom to my life. Thank you for this ministry to us scrupulous. Scrupulosity feels like a constant trap, often sadly encouraged by myself & others who give advice, but with these new perspectives I know that I can be set free by God’s Mercy daily.
Thank you, Fr. Tom, for providing us with a comprehensive explanation of a matter that affects so many of us. I find your approach to be thoroughly logical while retaining the compassion and understanding that one hopes to find in a spiritual advisor. Thank you, and God Bless!
Thank you Fr Santa for giving this topic a more and complete explanation. Context is everything.
Thank you dearly, Father. Your videos help me so much with my scrupulosity
Thank you, Father. All too often today, lust gets conflated with sexuality. You have helped to clarify the truth!
What is the point of making a comment if you do not pay attention to what has been shared?
Thank you so much Father.
thank you so much!
Thank you so much Father. You have helped me in my struggle to really know what Lust is and if I've committed it or not. God bless you!
Sexual attraction of the opposite sex is actually a blessing from God. There are very beautiful women everywhere in this world with very beautiful features. God knows this. It’s fine to be attracted to someone else but have you gone beyond that? The key word is adultery in your “heart”, which takes a willing effort to use that attractiveness to greedily please one’s own sexual desires. Have you diminished that woman in your mind to a tool to be used sexually? Simply admiring and being attracted to someone’s physical beauty is not at all lusting, otherwise virtually every single straight man on this earth, whether married or single, would be condemned to hell. You also have to remember that physical attraction comes first before marriage. That order is proper and sinless. Just focus on what you’re then doing with that attraction. Sometimes it is better to move on and leave the attraction behind, lest you fail to avoid the near occasion of sin.
Thank you so much, I struggle so badly with scrupoulosity, its been hard to live.
I can relate, I’ve had OCD for several years and it’s made my life so hard. Fathers videos on this channel have been helpful for me, in clearing up many misconceptions I’ve made up over the years.
Take courage and remember that God is always with you, even we you feel otherwise ! Scrupulosity does go away, and you will one day be able to enjoy life like every other catholic. Seeing a therapist can be very helpful, perhaps necessary depending on the case
Godbless and thankyou father
can someone direct me to the background music?
i’ve been dealing with scrupulosity for many years now and i’ve a hard time understanding lust. i never understood whether “looking at a woman with lust” counted as just thinking about the act with someone you were attracted to, imagining it, imagining it without imagining the sexual stimulation, imagining it while thinking about the emotional bond instead of the sexual pleasure, or otherwise. i stil don’t. i want to be able to replace and bad habits i have when i feel a strong sexual urge but i don’t want to get rid of normal thinking or “imaginations” either. what do you think Father?
Oh man I just became Catholic and these are all the same questions I’m dealing with. Have you obtained any clarification?
CCC 2351 "Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes."
Thank you for quoting the catechism. Now, pastorally apply what you just quoted us, in the tradition, and without exaggerations. There is no real skill in cutting and pasting we can all do that. And there is no understanding of what the church teaches if you do not apply the full understanding and context. .
@@catholicocd You say that Lust has nothing to do with entertaining a sexual thought, but CC2351 says that if you are deliberately entertaining a sexual thought for the purpose of gaining sexual pleasure outside its procreative and unitive purposes, then it is the sin of lust.
@@brendanbutler1238yes it is. I think he is only speaking about intrusive thoughts and not deliberate thoughts
@@rafoF1 The problem is his video and the description are saying that Lust must involve the misuse of power and sexuality together not just one or the other. The example he gives of David, suggests, by power, he means taking planned actions, not just deliberately entertaining the thoughts. He says in the description that "Lust has NOTHING to do with "entertaining" a sexual thought". Which means that even a deliberate sexual thought isn't Lust.
In his defence his description starts off by saying , "those who confuse Random sexual thoughts and feelings with Lust." But then he starts suggesting that no sexual thoughts on their own can constitute Lust. Also he is trying to reassure people who are overly scrupulous, but he also claims in the video that what he is teaching is in line with Church teaching and it isn't.
Church teaching says nothing about sexual thoughts having to be combined with planned actions (power) in order to constitute the sin of Lust.
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
Wonderful
It's as if someone who feels angry about his neighbor, starts to hate him and uses power to "go down that path", in some cases so much that he plans to do evil upon him (or even kill him).
But how can we interpret some comments by, i.e., St. Gregory the Great: "We must therefore take heed at the first, we ought not to look upon what it is unlawful to desire. For that the heart may be kept pure in thought, the eyes, as being on the watch to hurry us to sin, should be averted from wanton looks."? I'd like to know what you think.
Thank you Father nonetheless!
I think we know more about the human condition since the sixth century. In truth we do not have the context to even understand what Gregory was talking about. We think we do but we have been often wrong in our assumptions.
@@catholicocd I think i got it. It's from "Catena aurea", i've found it on the wikipedia page of Matt 5:27-28. As it is a commentary, and, by watching other videos of yours, to me it seems that we are getting a better/more complete understanding of things (i remember you talking about the "incompleteness" of such old works).
Love your Work father!
See father i constantly think I've been lustful which i ask my self have i used this lady for my pleasure which i dont think i have but i become anxious and fearful if i was abd then question my self if i was sinful or in the wrong in some way, I think i am scrupulous and am not aure how to control it or overcome it.
So, how would fantasy come into play here? King David lusted through planning and intent to act, or a willingness to act if opportunity presented itself. What if there is never real intention or desire beyond the imagination? Obviously this shouldn't be willfully engaged in and entertained, but you seem to suggest that it crosses the line into mortal sin when there is actual intention to carry out, physically, the desire?
I you got it pretty much right. Just like the sin of anger becomes grave matter when one intends to do grave harm to another human being so lust becomes a grave matter when one intends to realise it. Hence the example in the video of David and Bathsheba.
One could hypothetically sin by realizing a lustful thought in their mind by chosen enjoyment, but for people with ocd it is far different. People with ocd cannot choose whether or not a thought remains - similar to a photographic memory, the scary thought comes and provokes intense anxiety and then the brain latches onto the thought as a perceived threat. As someone with ocd I can attest that sometimes a particular thought will not leave the mind for weeks and sometimes even several months. The key is that the person with ocd does not desire the thought be present, but any effort to push the thought away makes the thought’s perceived threat even greater.
The person with ocd will often engage in a compulsion to alleviate anxiety known as testing. They will subconsciously or purposefully bring a troubling thought into their mind as a way to prove to themselves they are still disgusted of it. This attempt to prove to themselves their true nature ultimately intensifies the thought’s perceived threat as well.
But, the person with ocd cannot be said to have sinned because even when they think about a said thought, they are not doing so for the purpose of enjoyment, but rather to alleviate ocd.
This is the whole nature of the disorder and it is why people with ocd cannot judge themselves based on a typical examination of conscience. Actually examinations of conscience are so anxiety provoking, they typically increase ocd anxiety very strongly.
The person with ocd hates the idea of the mortal sin of lust and so they try to avoid it which only makes it remain.
The person with ocd can only be said to have actualized the mortal sin of lust by doing the action physically or by actual intention.
Otherwise, their will is so compromised by ocd that sin in the realm of thoughts is virtually impossible.
Jesus clearly stated that lust involves how one looks at a woman. He emphasized that it is about the gaze itself, indicating that no action is necessary for sexuality to turn into the sin of lust; merely looking at a woman in that way is enough. What way? It is when a man reduces a person to the level of an object of sexual pleasure in his perception. If you look at a woman's backside with sexual pleasure and justify it as instinct, you are defiling the sexuality given to you by God and reducing the person in front of you to an object. Desire should always be directed at the person, not their body parts.
The problem is that women often want to be seen this way as well, so it is not only men who are at fault. God foresaw what would happen to women after the fall in the Garden of Eden: "your urge shall be for your husband (so before fall woman's urge was not for her husband but God)." A woman, because of her longing for a man instead of God, reduces herself to an object and loses her dignity, and he as well easily exploits her at the basis of how he percieves her.
In Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II talked about it.
@@lifematterspodcastpeople with ocd fixate on the sin instead of how God intended it to be, and that's the problem, but that doesn't change the fact that lust is in percieving others as objects of one's sexual desires.
Evil is an abscence of good, so focusing on evil (sin, imperfections) is what makes thought processes devoid of good, and ultimately self destructive to the person who choses to fixate on evil like that. Biologically, trauma and fear is what gives fertile ground for ocd, but we still cognitively have a choice to fight that inclination. In fact, it is the only way to healing.
@@m.935 a gaze is an action. So if one were to choose to gaze at something impure, they are committing an action. But just looking at people regularly in everyday life is no sin, nor are intrusive thoughts that pop up. People with ocd don’t want the intrusive thoughts.
So is fantasizing a sin at all or just a thought. If it is a sin is it a serious or venial sin
Have a thought that concerns something sexual is only a sin of you DELIBERATELY and CONSCIOUSLY choose to entertain that thought instead of ATTEMPTING to cast it aside in a timely manner. However, if someone does legitimately CHOOSE to willfully entertain one of these thoughts, it is normally considered a mortal sin.
@@troymazzei5976 One could hypothetically sin by realizing a lustful thought in their mind by chosen enjoyment, but for people with ocd it is far different. People with ocd cannot choose whether or not a thought remains - similar to a photographic memory, the scary thought comes and provokes intense anxiety and then the brain latches onto the thought as a perceived threat.
As someone with ocd I can attest that sometimes a particular thought will not leave the mind for weeks and sometimes even several months.
The key is that the person with ocd does not desire the thought be present, but any effort to push the thought away makes the thought’s perceived threat even greater.
The person with ocd will often engage in a compulsion to alleviate anxiety known as testing. They will subconsciously or purposefully bring a troubling thought into their mind as a way to prove to themselves they are still disgusted of it. This attempt to prove to themselves their true nature ultimately intensifies the thought’s perceived threat as well.
But, the person with ocd cannot be said to have sinned because even when they think about a said thought, they are not doing so for the purpose of enjoyment, but rather to alleviate ocd.
This is the whole nature of the disorder and it is why people with ocd cannot judge themselves based on a typical examination of conscience. Actually examinations of conscience are so anxiety provoking, they typically increase ocd anxiety very strongly.
The person with ocd hates the idea of the mortal sin of lust and so they try to avoid it which only makes it remain.
The person with ocd can only be said to have actualized the mortal sin of lust by doing the action physically or by actual intention.
Otherwise, their will is so compromised by ocd that sin in the realm of thoughts is virtually impossible.
So, in conclusion, the person with ocd lacks the capability of “attempting to cast it aside in a timely manner” and cannot “choose to willfully entertain one of these thoughts”. Therefore, the person with ocd can only realize the mortal sin of lust by actually choosing to do it in real life or planning to do it by orchestrating it.
@@troymazzei5976what if it’s a sexual thought that isn’t about a illicit sexual act like procreative sex in marriage thought?
@@cardboardcapeii4286in the context of marriage it is a gift to lust your MARRIED partner the saints I think wrote about the beauty of the gift given to desire your spouse in that matter but in marriage only
While I agree in substance, I have a question. Is it possible for a thought to be a sin? I think so if one dwells on a thought centered on a desire for something wrong, as a matter of choice. If I willfully entertain fantasies about having sex with someone who isn't my wife, that is sinful. I agree that intrusive, passing thoughts are normal and we need not fear we have mortally sinned, or even necessarily sinned at all. But defining lust only in terms of physical actions independent of thoughts can also be dangerous; Jesus says one has committed adultery in one's heart by lusting, as a distinction from the physical act. Thoughts inform actions. So, one should be diligent against thoughts centered on a desire for something wrong. Though perhaps not sins in themselves, thoughts can easily lead to sin and are therefore not benign. But in guarding against scrupulosity, I agree that one shouldn't beat himself up for normal attractions. Simply recognize it for what it is, and move on without fear. Practice looking elsewhere, and redirecting your thoughts. But don't worry about it otherwise.
Jesus clearly stated that lust involves how one looks at a woman. He emphasized that it is about the gaze itself, indicating that no action is necessary for sexuality to turn into the sin of lust; merely looking at a woman in that way is enough. What way? It is when a man reduces a person to the level of an object of sexual pleasure in his perception. If you look at a woman's backside with sexual pleasure and justify it as instinct, you are defiling the sexuality given to you by God and reducing the person in front of you to an object. Desire should always be directed at the person, not their body parts.
The problem is that women often want to be seen this way as well, so it is not only men who are at fault. God foresaw what would happen to women after the fall in the Garden of Eden: "your urge shall be for your husband (so before fall woman's urge was not for her husband but God)." A woman, because of her longing for a man instead of God, reduces herself to an object and loses her dignity, and he as well easily exploits her at the basis of how he percieves her.
In Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II talked about it.
What does that Catholic Church teach?
Answer: The Bible says: if you look at a woman (human) with lust, you are guilty of sin. Then, two of the commandments say; if you covet a man's wife (or, a woman's husband), you're guilty is sin. And, thou shalt NOT commit adultery, and you do so by lusting after another human.
It is NORMAL and good how God made us to be attracted to the opposite sex! But we are to glorify God always, and to pray for all who we find attracted to (especially those we can't get our of our minds)... I recommend everyone to look up Jason and Crystallina Evert on 'theology of the body'... This will bring more clarification on what the Catholic Church teaches..
Thou........Not though. 😊
Jesus clearly stated that lust involves how one looks at a woman. He emphasized that it is about the gaze itself, indicating that no action is necessary for sexuality to turn into the sin of lust; merely looking at a woman in that way is enough. What way? It is when a man reduces a person to the level of an object of sexual pleasure in his perception. If you look at a woman's backside with sexual pleasure and justify it as instinct, you are defiling the sexuality given to you by God and reducing the person in front of you to an object. Desire should always be directed at the person, not their body parts.
The problem is that women often want to be seen this way as well, so it is not only men who are at fault. God foresaw what would happen to women after the fall in the Garden of Eden: "your urge shall be for your husband (so before fall woman's urge was not for her husband but God)." A woman, because of her longing for a man instead of God, reduces herself to an object and loses her dignity, and he as well easily exploits her at the basis of how he percieves her.
In Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II talked about it.
💗🙏🏻✝️ AMEN
Are you an Oratorian, Father?
No I am not. I am a Redemptorist.
I think that the issue with lust is that it actually hurts us and others. For example, it causes us to objectify a person without even knowing if that person is a Godly match for us (thus it can make us weak and make poor decisions). It can cause us to lose power over ourselves my ascribing more power to another person just based on appearance (which is the devil working, in my opinion). It gives another person control over us too, which is scary and not good.
Also, if one is married, it’s ultimately a symbol of being ungrateful and selfish. You are not thanking God and the person for what you do have, you are wanting something else. It’s like Eve in the Bible, being tempted by the devil to want more than all of the beautiful things God has given her. It’s also a careless objectification of another person.
Think of it this way: Lust is a trap from the devil. Looking once is not one’s fault necessarily. It’s the looking twice where the problem can start. It’s wanting more than what we have been given (if we are married). And that is an extremely hurtful thing to our spouse. I would be extremely hurt if my husband told me that he wanted someone else, and he would be devastated if I told him the same thing. I think it’s a matter of the heart and being a sensitive person. I think that what Jesus is talking about is the looking at someone with the desire to be doing something with that person. I think that is what he is saying. I don’t think that we can change what His words say there. I don’t think it’s calculating how to do it. I think it’s actually looking at someone and not just thinking the person is attractive. I think it’s visualizing doing sexual things with that person.
I think being strong and controlled in this way is a skill and a huge superpower. I think it gives us the ability to go tremendous places in life because we are not coveting what is not ours, and we are loving and being so thankful for the beautiful gifts and person that God has given us (if we are married) - or the life He has given us, if we are single. We are not given away our power to others or to images.
I think this a skill that can be learned. I don’t think that should beat ourselves up if we fall, but we can confess our sins to God and keep moving forward and getting stronger!!
I was respectfully wondering how the Priest thinks about what I have written here if he has time to comment? Thank you! 🙏
Jesus clearly stated that lust involves how one looks at a woman. He emphasized that it is about the gaze itself, indicating that no action is necessary for sexuality to turn into the sin of lust; merely looking at a woman in that way is enough. What way? It is when a man reduces a person to the level of an object of sexual pleasure in his perception. If you look at a woman's backside with sexual pleasure and justify it as instinct, you are defiling the sexuality given to you by God and reducing the person in front of you to an object. Desire should always be directed at the person, not their body parts.
The problem is that women often want to be seen this way as well, so it is not only men who are at fault. God foresaw what would happen to women after the fall in the Garden of Eden: "your urge shall be for your husband (so before fall woman's urge was not for her husband but God)." A woman, because of her longing for a man instead of God, reduces herself to an object and loses her dignity, and he as well easily exploits her at the basis of how he percieves her.
In Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II talked about it.
That doesn't explain what lust is. Confusing
This is a classic response rooted in the scrupulous condition. You did not discover the exact answer you were looking for, using the exact words of your preferred answer, so any other answer is confusing.
@@catholicocd ok so what do I do?
I just want to live my life normally without worrying too much, because I have work to do and I neglect work worrying
That is a good place to start. Knowing that you do not want to live this way any more. Now you need to take the steps to confront and manage your OCD scrupulosity in an effective way. Scrupulous Anonymous has many insights as does Managing Scrupulosity. At least that is a place to start.
@@catholicocd I will start there, thank you
Jesus clearly stated that lust involves how one looks at a woman. He emphasized that it is about the gaze itself, indicating that no action is necessary for sexuality to turn into the sin of lust; merely looking at a woman in that way is enough. What way? It is when a man reduces a person to the level of an object of sexual pleasure in his perception. If you look at a woman's backside with sexual pleasure and justify it as instinct, you are defiling the sexuality given to you by God and reducing the person in front of you to an object. Desire should always be directed at the person, not their body parts.
The problem is that women often want to be seen this way as well, so it is not only men who are at fault. God foresaw what would happen to women after the fall in the Garden of Eden: "your urge shall be for your husband (so before fall woman's urge was not for her husband but God)." A woman, because of her longing for a man instead of God, reduces herself to an object and loses her dignity, and he as well easily exploits her at the basis of how he percieves her.
In Theology of the Body, Pope John Paul II talked about it.
Damn. Im scared
So, what is addiction then?
Look it up. There are many fine explanations available to you.
@@catholicocd I have being searching and I don't find anything convincing. So in take of the doubt I just confess.
I'm tired of this, I'm 21 and I have being in this state since I was 9.
@@pasalasagain what state?
@@m.935 What do you mean state?
If I/you consent and "entertain" a lustful thought, I/you have sinned. It does not have to manifest to action.
That positioning is a trap that leads to nothing but more and more anxiety and useless worry. When did you hit the moment of entertainment? When did you fully and deliberately consent? How many seconds.How many minutes. Exactly what is the point.
@Catholic OCD discernment and diligence. Better to be overconcerned in avoiding sin than to be over-permissive - that later leads to eternal death.
@@toddcarver1430 Then your choice is to remain in a scrupulous modality and to actively resist the healing and the grace that the Lord wishes to apply to your struggle. That positioning that you just represented is the ultimate lie/fear that keeps a person in scrupulosity. You were not created to live your life in constant vigilance. Your are supposed to celebrate your life and the kingdom of God. Life is not a trap set by the Lord to send you to eternal damnation. That God is only in your imagination and is fed by your fear. I hope you have the courage to break away and to try and live the life of grace rather than the life of fear and entrapment.
@Catholic OCD if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.
Be a good shepherd.
@@toddcarver1430 the ultimate demonstration of fear is to attack your perceived enemy. Scrupulosity is your enemy. Not God. Not me. Not anyone who
Is trying to help you or anyone else who suffers with this disorder. Do not take refuge in accusations. Turn your efforts on the real cause of your suffering.
I disagree... If you lust after someone.. A fully willed erotic thought then it is a sin.
It may be a sin but is it lust. No. It is your imagination, fueled by scrupulosity, that always defaults to the worst possible outcome, the severest judgment. That is why it is called diminished capacity.
What does that Catholic Church teach?
Answer: The Bible says: if you look at a woman (human) with lust, you are guilty of sin. Then, two of the commandments say; if you covet a man's wife (or, a woman's husband), you're guilty is sin. And, though shalt NOT commit adultery, and you do so by losing after another human.
@@catholicocd Hello Father. I wish to ask you about this comment in the context of your video "Unwelcomed and Impulsive Thoughts. Are Thoughts Powerful?" Here you seem to indicate that a fully willed erotic thought is a sin, though in the video I mentioned you said that thoughts are not sins, irrespective of their contents. Definitively, certainly and once-and-for-all, is there a context, scenario or situation in which a thought becomes a sin?
I've struggled immensely with the constant consideration of whether a thought is a sin, whether journaling certain feelings and desires is a sin, whether I am obligated to constantly sweep aside thoughts as they arise, and so on. I'm certain you deal with those kinds of things very frequently. Uncertainty is the enemy of peace, and so I thought I should get a full and clear answer without ambiguity.
Hilarious enough, this will be the ninth priest I have asked this question! Scrupulosity at work.
Thank you for your patience and your time, Father.
@@davidshilliday9430 I sincerely doubt that as the ninth priest that you ask you will receive the answer that you seek. There is no answer that we can give. You already know the answer and only you understand the fullness of the question. That is the power of scrupulosity. It plays to an audience of one. And you are that audience.
@@catholicocd I don't understand what you mean, Father. How can I know the answer to this question, or at least be sure I am not in any danger of offending God?
I wonder if this priest has read the Catechism 2351 to 2356 and 2396: "Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity (sixth commandment) are masturbation, fornication pornography and homosexual practices." In fact, even seemingly innocent acts like going to the beach (with the way women are dressed), watching movies or even certain TV programs can easily lead us into mortal sin.
Most certainly have read the catechism. However it says nothing in isolation but always in context. You are reflecting in your assertion a hypersensitivity that is not part of the church’s moral teaching.
I don't know anything about 'hypersensitivity' but I do know something about addictions and sin, having been a member of several 12-step programs with many years of sobriety in each. The church tells us that deliberately placing ourselves without due cause in situations where we are likely to sin - and know that it will be likely from previous experience - is almost certainly a sin itself. How can a "near occasion of sin" also be a sin?
That sounds like circular reasoning, but it's not. Theoretically, I could go to a movie knowing that it depicted immoral acts that incited lust...or go to a beach where the girls are...well, you know.... and not commit a sin until I actually had lusted. But common sense and experience tells me that as soon as I consent to go to those places, I'm going to sin...then the decision to see that movie or go to the beach is part of the ritual or 'acting out' of the addiction/sin. For most people, once a habit of sin ingrains itself, without grace from above and diligence from ourselves to co-operate with it, we become trapped in an addictive, sinful habit. The doctor of the 2 founders of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1935 - the archetype of all 12-step programs - defined alcoholism as a "mental obsession coupled with a physical allergy." Perhaps that's where you're getting the concept of "hypersensitivity."
@@AndyYoung789 look at adjudication and sin in Catholic Moral Teaching which will
Provide the correct context of your reasoning. Addiction diminishes the capacity of free choice and therefore diminishes the gravity of sin.
@@catholicocd Okee-dokee, all the guys cruising for hookers and strip bars are going to heaven. Maybe that's where [then Father] Barron and Hans Urs von Balthasar got their 'universalism' - that we have a "reasonable hope" all men are going to heaven.
Okee-dokee to you…
A question: are you trying to be Christian or pharisaic?
Do you even know what is the topic?
Deliberately cultivating something bad is sinful, but the cathechism clearly talks about things that lower moral responsibility, such as psychic factors and much more. It’s not the same. But you clearly don’t want to get it right.