Hi and congratulation for your excellent work. I have been the owner of Orion since 2003, and I know the S.L. way of doing things very well. Very good for crossover electronics but poor on the mechanical side. The original wood-only baffle is mechanically insufficient. Even in the first version of LX521.3 the baffle was placed directly on the woofer box, there was a UA-cam video, now no longer there, published by German audiophiles, when playing organ music the baffle was pushed by the vibrations of the woofer walks until he reaches the edge of the woofer cabinet and before falling to the ground a hand catches him, and everyone laughs.. Honestly, how anyone can design a speaker with these defects leaves me speechless given that, there is a simple calculation to check whether mechanically the baffle, or the entire cabinet of a speaker, will be adequate for the force generated by the speakers. When the speaker reproduces a musical signal, the membrane of each speaker will produce an amount of force, the amount of force is generated by the weight of the moving mass pushed by the power of the amplifier. There is a simple calculation to protect yourself from a mechanically poor construction, you take the weight of the membrane and multiply it by 1000, 1000 is not a definitive value, 1000 is just an optimal coefficient to protect you from incorrect sizing and to realize what you need. The weight obtained with the coefficient 1000 will be sufficient to counteract the thrust force generated by the weight of the moving membrane. Of course the stiffness of the baffle material is also important and will participate in the "vibrational modes", all this is described in any vibration mechanics book. Like the trend of changing the support feet of the speakers and listening to the change in the sound. Each foot made of different material and shape will produce a different sound**, **if the quality of your system is accurate enough, because different shape and material have different vibrational modes that are in addition to those produced by the speaker cabinet. To avoid adding more vibrations, you must use a foot made of soft material sized for the weight it will have to support, capable of dampening the vibrations received. To reduce the vibrations created by the speaker you need to intervene on the quality of the speaker's construction and improve materials and construction technology, as you did with the wood sandwitch aluminum baffle. I'm honestly not sure if making a sandwitch is better than just aluminum considering the additional cost for the sandwitch. Maybe I would increase the weight of the baffle even more with even heavier metal like brass. Honestly, I would also make the entire support and base of the baffle out of the same material. However, your baffle is very well made and, for a speaker that wants to be a reference for sound quality, it is absolutely necessary. Why? Because the vibrational modes of the sounds are already present in the recordings we listen to and, for accurate reproduction, a speaker must not add other vibrational modes, each vibration added to the original sound already recorded will change the sound producing reinforcements and masking always producing a worsening of the sound, the sound gets worse because it is not the recorded sound. If you want accurate playback, it will only be accurate if it plays back without changing the information "already present" in the recording. If the recording is done badly, it will never sound good, but this is another interesting and great technical topic.
Great looking baffle, so well engineered, it must be quite expensive to do this. I would expect the detail and imaging would be highly improved. I followed the development of these speakers for over a decade. Mr Linkwitz was always happy to pass on information & knowledge about OB speakers even if you didnt own his. Such a knowledgable but humble man!
Yes, Dr. Linkwitz will be sadly missed. I intend to do his legacy all the justice it and he deserves. I suspect you're right about what we will be hearing here when these go together. I'll make sure you guys know all about it as it happens.🎧🙂🙏
Following the flaw which occurred in one of the two original HDF top baffles, I looked at an Aluminium/Panzerholz alternative which was first released by Linkwitz Germany a short while after my kit was shipped from Germany last year. As Shane explains, when I looked at ordering Aluminium/Panzerholz top baffles from Germany, there were some production delays (of unknown length) involved at that end. When Jon (at OAD) became aware of the issues, he discussed with Kevin, making the beautiful baffles which Shane now has in his hands. Beautiful work, for which I am very grateful to Kevin and Jon, and also to Shane for the role he played in helping to coordinate everything (plus of course, for all of his work in building the speakers to date). These two baffles incorporate a couple of improvements which Kevin suggested (as detailed by Shane), plus a couple of other improvements which were suggested by Shane (eg the method of attaching the drivers to the baffles) The "glue" was specially chosen because it is perfect for bonding Panzerholz and Aluminium (see my reply to a question below). The finished article, incorporating the wiring which Shane discusses (and suggested) is a further "upgrade" which I wouldn't have known about if Shane wasn't doing this build. So ....... thanks to Shane, Jon and Kevin, I will be the very fortunate beneficiary of having a terrific Linkwitz LX 521 system "upgraded" to a level that I believe Mr Linkwitz himself would have been happy with.
@An Aussie Audiophile Odd to see a copy my Aluminium/Panzerholz upper-baffle design being promoted as a first and "the best ever" -- FYI -- Dr. Frank Brenner has "never" stopped making these AL/Panz sandwiches since I first contracted him to build my design in late 2014 early 2015, and they are currently on the Linktwitz Audio web page -- but in the pull down menus. Your baffle "looks a little thick" -- as in thicker than the 18 mm that Siegfried's design mandated and the large-radius edge beveling suggest that you might not have understood how SL used baffle edge diffraction effects to create certain radiation patterns. But "more power to you" and to your customer -- great to see the LX521 getting attention, and I guess imitation is the highest form of flattery. My prototype had the tweeter offset mounts directly CNC machined from the 3 cm 5052 Alloy directly into the baffle, which enhanced the rigidity and gives a more aesthetic look to the sandwich baffle -- so (as to the best that will ever be made) I think your attractive design is 10 years too late ;-)
Hi there, these baffles are an absolute copy of the lx521.4 hdf baffle that is currently being sold down to the last mm. They are a little thicker than the 18 mm baffle, and that was done for a reason, absolute rigidity of the drivers that are critical for imaging and sound stage. We were told we could go to a maximum of 24 mm with no Sonic degradation. These baffles are 23mm or one inch thick. When Paul purchased this lx521.4 kit that I built for him, the sandwich Panzerholz baffle was not available, so we built our own. I can't talk about what's happening currently, but at that point, it was not available. The quality here is outstanding so my comment about the best top baffle was essentially due to the level of Engineering and quality of Engineering that has gone into this top baffle, including the Panzerholz base which is not offered by Dr Brenda, and which I believe makes a further Sonic improvement to the speaker system. In their final testing phase now they are doing everything that the many different Linkwitz lx521 systems I've heard do brilliantly. An immersive almost three dimensional sound stage, the harmony between the 4 critical drivers in the top baffle are now working as one, as opposed to me being able to hear each individual driver with the hdf baffle that was originally sent to us in the kit. I could not be happier with what I'm hearing in this speaker system now, and it's the best lx521 system I've ever heard.
@@shanestephenson8423 Great -- but this statement is "incorrect" -- """ We were told we could go to a maximum of 24 mm with no Sonic degradation.""" Told by whom ?? The direct citation from SL when I designed mine was "please do not exceed 18 mm [3/4 inch] as this will affect the desired 100Hz-7Khz dipole behavior -- if possible, please go thinner, which should be feasible when using a sandwich scheme with aluminum -- that would help maintain (or improve) the constant-directivity/frequency-independent design objectives" -- but I am glad that these worked out for you and your customer. I notice the Wilsons appear to have been "displaced" -- that is what commonly happens when a "music lover" gets exposed to the LX521's.
Shane - that is looking very good. I am definitely interested and can do the assembly here. My only change would be to anodize the aluminum in black to better match my system. Let's talk.
It is so great to read your advances of lx521s even with some different voices. I do agree the top baffle needs to be strong. But acoustic loading of metal will have different resonant response than wood/hdf say that warm woody cell sound. I did the same as you building the little back box wider with four pairs of binding posts on the back and two more pairs of binding posts at back of bottom of base box. Great work and wait and see you further works ahead.
Thanks for commenting and sharing your story. I'm always interested in what people are doing. In relation to the sandwich aluminium, Panzerholz essentially we have just copied what Dr Frank Brenner in Germany who runs Linkwitz is offering as an upgrade, with some further improvement around driver fastening and wire upgrades. I'll be doing a full series on all of the work I've done over several episodes, which is something you might be interested in .🙂🎧👍
They look beautiful! I have tried many different speaker wires in 40 years. I do not like plated wire. Due to the different electrical characteristics between copper and silver, It causes a slight distortion to the highs. Solid OCC copper or solid silver is the way to go.
Thanks, Steven, for your comment. This wire comes highly recommended several people have told me it is extremely good. So I guess only time will tell.👍🎧
@shanestephenson8423 I am OCD Mikey's friend that makes granite open baffle speakers. The new baffle will make your speakers way more detailed... you will perhaps feel they are "brighter". This is because the baffle is much stiffer and many times more massive than the MDF. This will allow much more of the driver energy into the room. These will be very revealing speakers. I am afraid the plated wire will make them tough to listen to. I am speaking from experience with almost every conceivable baffle material for open baffle. I just want your efforts to be rewarded! All the best, Steve
I can't speak from experience, but have been told the same(from well seasoned audiophile). Solid core silver is the best way to go, or high grade copper.@@stevedeharde2712
The wire was sourced from a company called Sonic Art here in Australia. And I'll have to get back to you about the glue as Kevin, the fellow who built and put these together sourced what I believe was a glue that took a week to cure ( very strong) I will take that question on notice and come back to you with an answer.🎧🙂👍
@unicornslayer6963 Yes correct certainly knocking on them would suggest so. But all the properties of panzerholz aluminium sandwich composite suggest it will be very dense.
Hello there. I understand that the following products, developed by Gougeon Brothers (Bay City Michigan) (and licensed to be produced in Australia by West System) were used to make the bond between the Panzerholz to the aluminium: * West System 413 Microfibre Blend Adhesive Filler. * West System 105 Epoxy resin * West System 207 Special Clear Hardener.
That baffle is very impressive indeed. I have seriously considered building this system and I even posses the template. My hesitation took over when I considered the complexity of the multi-channel amplification system required. Also getting these speakers to produce an adequate amount of bass(subjective) is a challenge as well. That being said the spaciousness and imaging these speakers produce is top tier.
Yes, bass can be an issue, and I agree with you very subjective what is perfect for one person will not be enough for another. We will be going through this together as this is part 1 of the series. I will talk about all of that as it presents itself both in my room and in Paul's. 🎧🙂👍
@@shanestephenson8423 Hi Shane.. If they are not soldered onto the pcb, and the upgrade itch starts again.. You can at least try compatible Muses type Opamps..
Hi Eddie, yes, it's a bit of work, but it's for a great friend Paul who you will meet in the last video in this series, when I set up his new HiFi system in his house. 👍🎧🙂
Hi and congratulation for your excellent work.
I have been the owner of Orion since 2003, and I know the S.L. way of doing things very well.
Very good for crossover electronics but poor on the mechanical side.
The original wood-only baffle is mechanically insufficient.
Even in the first version of LX521.3 the baffle was placed directly on the woofer box, there was a UA-cam video, now no longer there, published by German audiophiles, when playing organ music the baffle was pushed by the vibrations of the woofer walks until he reaches the edge of the woofer cabinet and before falling to the ground a hand catches him, and everyone laughs..
Honestly, how anyone can design a speaker with these defects leaves me speechless given that,
there is a simple calculation to check whether mechanically the baffle, or the entire cabinet of a speaker, will be adequate for the force generated by the speakers.
When the speaker reproduces a musical signal, the membrane of each speaker will produce an amount of force, the amount of force is generated by the weight of the moving mass pushed by the power of the amplifier.
There is a simple calculation to protect yourself from a mechanically poor construction, you take the weight of the membrane and multiply it by 1000, 1000 is not a definitive value, 1000 is just an optimal coefficient to protect you from incorrect sizing and to realize what you need.
The weight obtained with the coefficient 1000 will be sufficient to counteract the thrust force generated by the weight of the moving membrane.
Of course the stiffness of the baffle material is also important and will participate in the "vibrational modes", all this is described in any vibration mechanics book.
Like the trend of changing the support feet of the speakers and listening to the change in the sound.
Each foot made of different material and shape will produce a different sound**, **if the quality of your system is accurate enough, because different shape and material have different vibrational modes that are in addition to those produced by the speaker cabinet.
To avoid adding more vibrations, you must use a foot made of soft material sized for the weight it will have to support, capable of dampening the vibrations received.
To reduce the vibrations created by the speaker you need to intervene on the quality of the speaker's construction and improve materials and construction technology, as you did with the wood sandwitch aluminum baffle.
I'm honestly not sure if making a sandwitch is better than just aluminum considering the additional cost for the sandwitch.
Maybe I would increase the weight of the baffle even more with even heavier metal like brass.
Honestly, I would also make the entire support and base of the baffle out of the same material.
However, your baffle is very well made and, for a speaker that wants to be a reference for sound quality, it is absolutely necessary. Why?
Because the vibrational modes of the sounds are already present in the recordings we listen to and, for accurate reproduction, a speaker must not add other vibrational modes, each vibration added to the original sound already recorded will change the sound producing reinforcements and masking always producing a worsening of the sound, the sound gets worse because it is not the recorded sound.
If you want accurate playback, it will only be accurate if it plays back without changing the information "already present" in the recording.
If the recording is done badly, it will never sound good, but this is another interesting and great technical topic.
Awesome response!!!!! Thanks very much for your detailed comments.👍🙂🎧
Hmm☕️❄️..
That looks like one sweet sweet piece of custom fabrication 😎
Congratulations on this project!
A happy Valentine’s Day to you and yours .
Thanks Carmine 🙏
It's the beginning of a new series. You guys will be with me every step of the way as I put these things together. 👍
I used SS bolts, spring washers and nuts for all the drivers. I thought that using wood screws could be an issue.
Great decision🎧🙂👍
Great looking baffle, so well engineered, it must be quite expensive to do this. I would expect the detail and imaging would be highly improved. I followed the development of these speakers for over a decade. Mr Linkwitz was always happy to pass on information & knowledge about OB speakers even if you didnt own his. Such a knowledgable but humble man!
Yes, Dr. Linkwitz will be sadly missed. I intend to do his legacy all the justice it and he deserves.
I suspect you're right about what we will be hearing here when these go together. I'll make sure you guys know all about it as it happens.🎧🙂🙏
Following the flaw which occurred in one of the two original HDF top baffles, I looked at an Aluminium/Panzerholz alternative which was first released by Linkwitz Germany a short while after my kit was shipped from Germany last year. As Shane explains, when I looked at ordering Aluminium/Panzerholz top baffles from Germany, there were some production delays (of unknown length) involved at that end.
When Jon (at OAD) became aware of the issues, he discussed with Kevin, making the beautiful baffles which Shane now has in his hands.
Beautiful work, for which I am very grateful to Kevin and Jon, and also to Shane for the role he played in helping to coordinate everything (plus of course, for all of his work in building the speakers to date).
These two baffles incorporate a couple of improvements which Kevin suggested (as detailed by Shane), plus a couple of other improvements which were suggested by Shane (eg the method of attaching the drivers to the baffles)
The "glue" was specially chosen because it is perfect for bonding Panzerholz and Aluminium (see my reply to a question below).
The finished article, incorporating the wiring which Shane discusses (and suggested) is a further "upgrade" which I wouldn't have known about if Shane wasn't doing this build.
So ....... thanks to Shane, Jon and Kevin, I will be the very fortunate beneficiary of having a terrific Linkwitz LX 521 system "upgraded" to a level that I believe Mr Linkwitz himself would have been happy with.
You're gonna be very happy with these Paul they're coming up beautifully.😍🎧👍🙏
@An Aussie Audiophile Odd to see a copy my Aluminium/Panzerholz upper-baffle design being promoted as a first and "the best ever" -- FYI -- Dr. Frank Brenner has "never" stopped making these AL/Panz sandwiches since I first contracted him to build my design in late 2014 early 2015, and they are currently on the Linktwitz Audio web page -- but in the pull down menus. Your baffle "looks a little thick" -- as in thicker than the 18 mm that Siegfried's design mandated and the large-radius edge beveling suggest that you might not have understood how SL used baffle edge diffraction effects to create certain radiation patterns. But "more power to you" and to your customer -- great to see the LX521 getting attention, and I guess imitation is the highest form of flattery. My prototype had the tweeter offset mounts directly CNC machined from the 3 cm 5052 Alloy directly into the baffle, which enhanced the rigidity and gives a more aesthetic look to the sandwich baffle -- so (as to the best that will ever be made) I think your attractive design is 10 years too late ;-)
Hi there, these baffles are an absolute copy of the lx521.4 hdf baffle that is currently being sold down to the last mm.
They are a little thicker than the 18 mm baffle, and that was done for a reason, absolute rigidity of the drivers that are critical for imaging and sound stage. We were told we could go to a maximum of 24 mm with no Sonic degradation.
These baffles are 23mm or one inch thick.
When Paul purchased this lx521.4 kit that I built for him, the sandwich Panzerholz baffle was not available, so we built our own. I can't talk about what's happening currently, but at that point, it was not available.
The quality here is outstanding so my comment about the best top baffle was essentially due to the level of Engineering and quality of Engineering that has gone into this top baffle, including the Panzerholz base which is not offered by Dr Brenda, and which I believe makes a further Sonic improvement to the speaker system.
In their final testing phase now they are doing everything that the many different Linkwitz lx521 systems I've heard do brilliantly.
An immersive almost three dimensional sound stage, the harmony between the 4 critical drivers in the top baffle are now working as one, as opposed to me being able to hear each individual driver with the hdf baffle that was originally sent to us in the kit.
I could not be happier with what I'm hearing in this speaker system now, and it's the best lx521 system I've ever heard.
@@shanestephenson8423 Great -- but this statement is "incorrect" -- """ We were told we could go to a maximum of 24 mm with no Sonic degradation.""" Told by whom ?? The direct citation from SL when I designed mine was "please do not exceed 18 mm [3/4 inch] as this will affect the desired 100Hz-7Khz dipole behavior -- if possible, please go thinner, which should be feasible when using a sandwich scheme with aluminum -- that would help maintain (or improve) the constant-directivity/frequency-independent design objectives" -- but I am glad that these worked out for you and your customer. I notice the Wilsons appear to have been "displaced" -- that is what commonly happens when a "music lover" gets exposed to the LX521's.
Beautiful product.
They sure are.
Stunning!...
Shane - that is looking very good. I am definitely interested and can do the assembly here. My only change would be to anodize the aluminum in black to better match my system. Let's talk.
Hi Michael, Yes, colour preferences are an individual thing and not a problem and could be done easily.👍🎧🙂
It is so great to read your advances of lx521s even with some different voices. I do agree the top baffle needs to be strong. But acoustic loading of metal will have different resonant response than wood/hdf say that warm woody cell sound. I did the same as you building the little back box wider with four pairs of binding posts on the back and two more pairs of binding posts at back of bottom of base box. Great work and wait and see you further works ahead.
Thanks for commenting and sharing your story. I'm always interested in what people are doing.
In relation to the sandwich aluminium, Panzerholz essentially we have just copied what Dr Frank Brenner in Germany who runs Linkwitz is offering as an upgrade, with some further improvement around driver fastening and wire upgrades.
I'll be doing a full series on all of the work I've done over several episodes, which is something you might be interested in .🙂🎧👍
They look beautiful! I have tried many different speaker wires in 40 years. I do not like plated wire. Due to the different electrical characteristics between copper and silver, It causes a slight distortion to the highs. Solid OCC copper or solid silver is the way to go.
Thanks, Steven, for your comment.
This wire comes highly recommended several people have told me it is extremely good. So I guess only time will tell.👍🎧
@shanestephenson8423 I am OCD Mikey's friend that makes granite open baffle speakers. The new baffle will make your speakers way more detailed... you will perhaps feel they are "brighter". This is because the baffle is much stiffer and many times more massive than the MDF. This will allow much more of the driver energy into the room. These will be very revealing speakers. I am afraid the plated wire will make them tough to listen to. I am speaking from experience with almost every conceivable baffle material for open baffle. I just want your efforts to be rewarded! All the best, Steve
I can't speak from experience, but have been told the same(from well seasoned audiophile). Solid core silver is the best way to go, or high grade copper.@@stevedeharde2712
wow ,very nice cnc machining! Can I ask you What glue you chosen for the cld. Also where did you source the silver-plated occ wire.
The wire was sourced from a company called Sonic Art here in Australia. And I'll have to get back to you about the glue as Kevin, the fellow who built and put these together sourced what I believe was a glue that took a week to cure ( very strong) I will take that question on notice and come back to you with an answer.🎧🙂👍
@@shanestephenson8423 Thank you Shane. Very interesting. I guess those baffles has next to no resonances.👍🙂
@unicornslayer6963 Yes correct certainly knocking on them would suggest so. But all the properties of panzerholz aluminium sandwich composite suggest it will be very dense.
Hello there.
I understand that the following products, developed by Gougeon Brothers (Bay City Michigan) (and licensed to be produced in Australia by West System) were used to make the bond between the Panzerholz to the aluminium:
* West System 413 Microfibre Blend Adhesive Filler.
* West System 105 Epoxy resin
* West System 207 Special Clear Hardener.
Question is : Will any of this make a noticeable aural difference ? Likely not.
It's sure did make an audible difference. You're talking about a much denser baffle and a much better wire.
That baffle is very impressive indeed. I have seriously considered building this system and I even posses the template. My hesitation took over when I considered the complexity of the multi-channel amplification system required. Also getting these speakers to produce an adequate amount of bass(subjective) is a challenge as well. That being said the spaciousness and imaging these speakers produce is top tier.
Yes, bass can be an issue, and I agree with you very subjective what is perfect for one person will not be enough for another. We will be going through this together as this is part 1 of the series. I will talk about all of that as it presents itself both in my room and in Paul's. 🎧🙂👍
Next up.. Upgrade the Opamps in the Active Crossover?
Hi Rick, Yes, it can continue to go on if you want it to. But I think after this Paul will have and be happy with his final system.🙂👍
@@shanestephenson8423 Hi Shane.. If they are not soldered onto the pcb, and the upgrade itch starts again.. You can at least try compatible Muses type Opamps..
Looks like a lot of work but should work out excellent.
Hi Eddie, yes, it's a bit of work, but it's for a great friend Paul who you will meet in the last video in this series, when I set up his new HiFi system in his house. 👍🎧🙂