"An endless river of gold & silver flowing over him" Just WOW!!! It is so gracious of Finrod to teach these men much lore and skill bc the Valor kinda fell short in helping Mankind. Loving the voice actors!!
Melian doesn't bother telling Thingol of her premonition because there is nothing anyone can do about it. The knowledge would cause strife and yield sour fruit. I think in the telling of this to Galadriel, however, we see something of a student and teacher. She's almost setting an example of how to handle those with great destinies. This will serve her well in her encounter with the Fellowship many centuries later.
Personally I don't think the idea of human mortality is inherently contradicting the concept of the "Gift of Men", or death as a punishment by Eru/consequence of the Marring. If Men were indeed immortal or very long-lived they (after their corruption in Hildorien) could have lived either very long or forever under the dominion of Morgoth. With Men being mortal, however, every human, whether they believe in Eru or Melkor would eventually be released from their earthly bonds and transcend Arda Marred.
12:40 When the Eldar awoke, the Valar didn't know about their awakening until some time after it had already happened. Something tells me likewise it would have been with the Atani.
Oh blood and bloody ashes. I'm so sorry I forgot to comment on this. I love that even with as invested in this world that you are you still have questions that come up. I wonder if they're holding onto the language as a future cash flow. I hate to think of capitalism's role in all of this... but it is a motivator. Though if I was optimistic I could say it was so that they can continue amusing the most dedicated for time to come. The word as a descriptor may not age well but I love you pointing out that there is ethnic variety. Especially since there is a positive representation of the interactions between elves and the people of Beor. I actually would argue that it isn't necessarily that it was a difference in musical development from that description. I think it might be a stylistic choice. (though shout-out for rock!orc) I picture the elves to be more fond of more “classical” melodies and more dulcet tunes with even their battle tunes and festive music being more a case of tempo. Also with a focus on a specific set of performers. Whereas the men's music might be more rumbustious, bawdy, relying more on percussion and probably with everyone joining in. At least at a campfire setting. Which would seem as far less organized, not a 'true' song in their ears... Also from the further passage these things WOULD seem fantastical to them. Like something made up. And as in the nature of folk songs The narratives in theirs would likely be more based around their own histories/lessons. And as you continue to see the elves hold a magic of sorts over song in a way that can't be naturally developed. I do find it amusing that it's translated when Tolkien puts such detail into the differences of languages and how they can be an important element of showing divisions between peoples. Wait, so timelines. Since men already existed in the East... And Melkor didn't 'always' exist... How did they come to believe that he was the source of a short life? I like the speculation that it was supposed to be a jumping off point for Galadriel. Though, as I may repeat, I am eternally frustrated by Melian not having any of these conversations with her own daughter who would at least in theory be as invested in their people as she. Thank you for another wonderful installment!
I'm exactly caught up in the reading where you are now! Little scarred to try to push on in the book without your help but this is my second read through so I hope I'll be ok. I have Book of Unfinished Tales which I feel like I really need to understand the Silmarillion fully to understand, and Im eager to read that.
Swarthy in the Tolkien context either means Men are Turkic in appearance, or Meditteranean such as Italians or Spaniards or possibly Roma-looking- a very light brown to yellowish of skin, though of Men who are dark-skinned, of which the Harad clearly are, Tolkien is very clear to point this out. Given that the House of Beor and the House of Hador had languages of similar roots, and where travelling together, these were fair to fairer-skinned people (European-looking) and were not Easterlings (as understood in the Lord of the Rings). While actual Easterlings, Turkic-looking peoples, eventually arrived much later in Beleriand. At no point did the peoples or ancestors of Harad arrive or live in Beleriand.
Agreed. He uses swarthy in the context of what an ancient Northwestern European would consider swarthy as compared to themselves. Even the Welsh were called swarthy at times for their higher percentage of dark hair and eyes.
Whilst swarthy can somewhat infer black or brown skin, in its common usage, of the early and mid 20th Century, it means sun tanned. Rarely if ever, has the word swarthy been used by any author to describe African or Asian ethnicity. Also, do not dismiss the fact that Tolkien's main objective for Middle Earth was to be a mythological legend of ancient Northern Europe, especially England. Whilst I openly invite diverse characters and peoples, a fictional mythology based upon ancient Ethiopia, or Sudan could describe some men as being "light skinned". I wouldn't assume that meant white Europeans, rather I'd imagine it describing different variance within that historical area. Same as some 100% white English people are prone to tanning easily and become swarthy. Others are not and only sunburn or show freckles. There is SO much creative room for all ethnicities in middle earth. Rhun, Easterlings, Harad, Houses of Dwarves, etc. So many stories!! Spies fighting spies, warriors that reject Sauron. Family perspectives, struggles, perseverance. But to have an ancient Northern European setting and forcing diversity into it is just ignorant. Middle Earth should not resemble modern day Los Angeles or London. Don't lock a timeless story into "modern" time.
"and they sang because they were glad, and believed that they had escaped from all perils and had come at last to a land without fear" ...yeah about that 😂
Of course. The next one won't be available until next week at the earliest. I try to upload at least one video in this series per month; which I know isn't fast enough for some people, but it's the fastest I'm able to do at the moment. The good news is, if you've made it to chapter seventeen, most readers should be capable of finishing the book at this point; most of the real _problem chapters_ that lots of people get stuck on are already behind us. With that said, I've still got some awesome stuff planned for the later chapters.
@@VoiceofGeekdom awesome news!! I can only imagine the amount of time and research that goes into the videos, so once a month is outstanding to me. I’m almost thru the first read and I recently started your videos to help me understand what was happening. I didn’t realize just how helpful they were going to be, so I’m going to start the second read thru soon and plan to use your videos as I go thru each chapter. Thank you for putting these together. They’ve been great study resources.
Does thisability of song help cement thebilities of Elves to projectthoughts and ifeas to other minds. Galadriel, Elrond, evengandalf a Maia seems to be able to read the minds of other/It mustbe true that if you can read a mind you can prokect thoughts andimages into a mind as well.
Well it's certainly a novel theory as to how orcs were kept out of Doriath. I suppose cooking them alive would be as effective as any other method of killing them. Griddle is NOT the same word as girdle in any way, shape or form. The reader of that line needs to be a lot more careful in their interpretation of the text.
I read this as Morgoth corrupting the gift of mortality and turning Men’s hearts covetous toward the elves and the Valar. He was happy to take the blame for the marring of men’s earthly bodies, as long as they viewed their mortality as an affliction rather than a blessing.
2:40 - seeming or actual discontinuity - jump cuts - to delineate structure. We all want "The Silmarillion" to be a novel, but it isn't, it's more like an epic opera storybook. There is a thematic connection, however, served by this jump, but it is 'hidden' or rather it has to do with the similar, overlapping fates of two related hidden things. Do you see it? Ulmo would.
It's really a shame we don't see more of what the first men and women were like nor their circumstances and events. They were basically the Adam and Havilah(Eve) of Arda's humanity. Sometimes I don't like the idea of Eru illuvatar's giving men death as a gift as that would make him a author of death which is not what Yahuah and Yahusha are like in the Bible which they gave mankind everything that resided on the earth when it was perfect and death did not exist. I wish there was better context sometimes and the idea that Melkor caused something to them would have been better explored because otherwise it makes the Valar look like unsympathetic and unrighteous angelics who committed sloth and apathy by standing by and doing absolutely nothing when they could have done the right and holy thing to do, a huge sinful injustice. But unfortunately we will not.
"An endless river of gold & silver flowing over him" Just WOW!!! It is so gracious of Finrod to teach these men much lore and skill bc the Valor kinda fell short in helping Mankind. Loving the voice actors!!
Please persevere to the end with this graet work. Thanke you
I know this is first age but it's foundational to the relationship between the Elves and Man.
I need these videos so much!
Melian doesn't bother telling Thingol of her premonition because there is nothing anyone can do about it. The knowledge would cause strife and yield sour fruit.
I think in the telling of this to Galadriel, however, we see something of a student and teacher. She's almost setting an example of how to handle those with great destinies. This will serve her well in her encounter with the Fellowship many centuries later.
Thanks!
So happy for this video, Loving this series & always looking forward to the next chapter. Thank you!
Good day, Enjoyed-top recording- catch youl ater, ;)
Personally I don't think the idea of human mortality is inherently contradicting the concept of the "Gift of Men", or death as a punishment by Eru/consequence of the Marring. If Men were indeed immortal or very long-lived they (after their corruption in Hildorien) could have lived either very long or forever under the dominion of Morgoth. With Men being mortal, however, every human, whether they believe in Eru or Melkor would eventually be released from their earthly bonds and transcend Arda Marred.
12:40 When the Eldar awoke, the Valar didn't know about their awakening until some time after it had already happened. Something tells me likewise it would have been with the Atani.
Oh blood and bloody ashes. I'm so sorry I forgot to comment on this.
I love that even with as invested in this world that you are you still have questions that come up.
I wonder if they're holding onto the language as a future cash flow. I hate to think of capitalism's role in all of this... but it is a motivator. Though if I was optimistic I could say it was so that they can continue amusing the most dedicated for time to come.
The word as a descriptor may not age well but I love you pointing out that there is ethnic variety. Especially since there is a positive representation of the interactions between elves and the people of Beor. I actually would argue that it isn't necessarily that it was a difference in musical development from that description. I think it might be a stylistic choice. (though shout-out for rock!orc) I picture the elves to be more fond of more “classical” melodies and more dulcet tunes with even their battle tunes and festive music being more a case of tempo. Also with a focus on a specific set of performers. Whereas the men's music might be more rumbustious, bawdy, relying more on percussion and probably with everyone joining in. At least at a campfire setting. Which would seem as far less organized, not a 'true' song in their ears...
Also from the further passage these things WOULD seem fantastical to them. Like something made up. And as in the nature of folk songs The narratives in theirs would likely be more based around their own histories/lessons. And as you continue to see the elves hold a magic of sorts over song in a way that can't be naturally developed. I do find it amusing that it's translated when Tolkien puts such detail into the differences of languages and how they can be an important element of showing divisions between peoples.
Wait, so timelines. Since men already existed in the East... And Melkor didn't 'always' exist... How did they come to believe that he was the source of a short life?
I like the speculation that it was supposed to be a jumping off point for Galadriel. Though, as I may repeat, I am eternally frustrated by Melian not having any of these conversations with her own daughter who would at least in theory be as invested in their people as she.
Thank you for another wonderful installment!
I'm exactly caught up in the reading where you are now! Little scarred to try to push on in the book without your help but this is my second read through so I hope I'll be ok. I have Book of Unfinished Tales which I feel like I really need to understand the Silmarillion fully to understand, and Im eager to read that.
Swarthy in the Tolkien context either means Men are Turkic in appearance, or Meditteranean such as Italians or Spaniards or possibly Roma-looking- a very light brown to yellowish of skin, though of Men who are dark-skinned, of which the Harad clearly are, Tolkien is very clear to point this out.
Given that the House of Beor and the House of Hador had languages of similar roots, and where travelling together, these were fair to fairer-skinned people (European-looking) and were not Easterlings (as understood in the Lord of the Rings). While actual Easterlings, Turkic-looking peoples, eventually arrived much later in Beleriand. At no point did the peoples or ancestors of Harad arrive or live in Beleriand.
Agreed. He uses swarthy in the context of what an ancient Northwestern European would consider swarthy as compared to themselves. Even the Welsh were called swarthy at times for their higher percentage of dark hair and eyes.
Whilst swarthy can somewhat infer black or brown skin, in its common usage, of the early and mid 20th Century, it means sun tanned.
Rarely if ever, has the word swarthy been used by any author to describe African or Asian ethnicity.
Also, do not dismiss the fact that Tolkien's main objective for Middle Earth was to be a mythological legend of ancient Northern Europe, especially England.
Whilst I openly invite diverse characters and peoples, a fictional mythology based upon ancient Ethiopia, or Sudan could describe some men as being "light skinned". I wouldn't assume that meant white Europeans, rather I'd imagine it describing different variance within that historical area. Same as some 100% white English people are prone to tanning easily and become swarthy. Others are not and only sunburn or show freckles.
There is SO much creative room for all ethnicities in middle earth. Rhun, Easterlings, Harad, Houses of Dwarves, etc.
So many stories!! Spies fighting spies, warriors that reject Sauron. Family perspectives, struggles, perseverance.
But to have an ancient Northern European setting and forcing diversity into it is just ignorant. Middle Earth should not resemble modern day Los Angeles or London.
Don't lock a timeless story into "modern" time.
"and they sang because they were glad, and believed that they had escaped from all perils and had come at last to a land without fear" ...yeah about that 😂
I hope we get a lot of this story in the Amazon series.
Lol
Will there be more? These have been extremely helpful as I read thru the book.
Of course. The next one won't be available until next week at the earliest. I try to upload at least one video in this series per month; which I know isn't fast enough for some people, but it's the fastest I'm able to do at the moment. The good news is, if you've made it to chapter seventeen, most readers should be capable of finishing the book at this point; most of the real _problem chapters_ that lots of people get stuck on are already behind us. With that said, I've still got some awesome stuff planned for the later chapters.
@@VoiceofGeekdom awesome news!!
I can only imagine the amount of time and research that goes into the videos, so once a month is outstanding to me.
I’m almost thru the first read and I recently started your videos to help me understand what was happening. I didn’t realize just how helpful they were going to be, so I’m going to start the second read thru soon and plan to use your videos as I go thru each chapter.
Thank you for putting these together. They’ve been great study resources.
Wow.
Does thisability of song help cement thebilities of Elves to projectthoughts and ifeas to other minds. Galadriel, Elrond, evengandalf a Maia seems to be able to read the minds of other/It mustbe true that if you can read a mind you can prokect thoughts andimages into a mind as well.
I didn't know Melian cooked wiht a griddle, ')I doubt she kept out brings of evilwith a griddle and a spatchula.
I posted one of Nikoline's outtakes on Patreon recently for this line. 😁
Well it's certainly a novel theory as to how orcs were kept out of Doriath. I suppose cooking them alive would be as effective as any other method of killing them.
Griddle is NOT the same word as girdle in any way, shape or form. The reader of that line needs to be a lot more careful in their interpretation of the text.
I read this as Morgoth corrupting the gift of mortality and turning Men’s hearts covetous toward the elves and the Valar. He was happy to take the blame for the marring of men’s earthly bodies, as long as they viewed their mortality as an affliction rather than a blessing.
2:40 - seeming or actual discontinuity - jump cuts - to delineate structure. We all want "The Silmarillion" to be a novel, but it isn't, it's more like an epic opera storybook. There is a thematic connection, however, served by this jump, but it is 'hidden' or rather it has to do with the similar, overlapping fates of two related hidden things. Do you see it? Ulmo would.
It's really a shame we don't see more of what the first men and women were like nor their circumstances and events. They were basically the Adam and Havilah(Eve) of Arda's humanity. Sometimes I don't like the idea of Eru illuvatar's giving men death as a gift as that would make him a author of death which is not what Yahuah and Yahusha are like in the Bible which they gave mankind everything that resided on the earth when it was perfect and death did not exist.
I wish there was better context sometimes and the idea that Melkor caused something to them would have been better explored because otherwise it makes the Valar look like unsympathetic and unrighteous angelics who committed sloth and apathy by standing by and doing absolutely nothing when they could have done the right and holy thing to do, a huge sinful injustice. But unfortunately we will not.
These are tales of shem.
Fairy tales