In my opinion, Havel did not want to kill the Firstborn. He wanted revenge against Gwyn for giving Seath so much recognition and basically siding with Seath. Havel hated Seath with a stinging passion and he thought that Gwyn had practically betrayed him. So, he made a plan to kill Gwyn. But Gwyn found out, and sealed him away. Perhaps the, "For his own good" wasn't meaning of Havel, but for Gwyn's own good.
+Jacob Doyle I don't think that was there the entire time havel was locked up seeing as upon arrival it just lands in the bridge but I see what you mean
no I I don't think that happened because gwyn was already dead. he was a hollow in the kiln of the first flame which only the chosen undead could go to. and havel is the only other dragonslayer besides the other three knights and the firstborn.
Is it Havel in the Tower locked away in DS1?!?! In my opp. he is not. It is only one of his followers, becuase he gives you havels Ring. (Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load.) So why should havel wear his own ring he normally hand down to weaker soldiers so that they can wear his heavy amor? So the (There are rumors of a hero turned Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend. For his own good, of course.) means more that Havel himself locked one of his fellow Soldiers away and not that Gwyn locked Havel away... Havel itself in DS1 is a dead corps in the great Hollo! The one that has the Great magic barrier... if you want some proof, therefore I have not enought space here ;-P
Faraam -> Lions -> Lions is the "king of animals" -> The Nameless KING -> The nameless kings headdress almost looks like a lions mane. I think this one is solid.
Kian Klenø well, I think it’s very plausible he is Faraam. But that it isn’t his birth name, perhaps just a name the Knights of Forossa bestowed upon him as a semblance of Power & Lions. I believe he is truly nameless in that; his name will never again be discovered.
@@markushaahr9194 Given the naming scheme he could just be Gwyn Jr, or some other name that starts with Gwyn. However, him being a former God of War, I think his name is Sen, and Sen's Fortress used to be his, to train Silver Knights and defend Anor Londo during the war with the dragons. There's no mention of a Sen anywhere in the game, other than the name of the fortress, which would make sense if his name was stricken from the records of history. Sen's Fortress might still be named that because it's always been named that way and that name is no longer associated with the firstborn, or it was widely known by that name, and the gods changed it, but the people outside of Anor Londo still remember/refer to it by its original name.
The other interesting point that reinforces your theory is that originally Dragons do not have special souls (aside from the Seath who was granted it by Gwyn), not even Kalameet, yet Nameless King claims the soul of his fallen comrade as was custom in the age of gods.
@@coldray5 Ancient Dragon has a soul. (DS2) Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon has a soul. (DS2) Darkeater Midir has a soul. (DS3) The only reason why I can think that these 3 in particular have a soul compared to other dragons, is because they have been heavily steeped in death and must have absorbed a massive amount of souls before it died. AD = The Dragon War. Sinh = The Death of Shulva. Midir = Constantly eating Humanity. Both Kalameet and Gaping Dragon are recluses, so they didn't really get a chance to absorb a massive amount of souls. Seath had Gwyn's Soul Fragment, so any souls acquired would have been absorbed by it.
@@Battleguild the ancient dragon have a soul bc it is a construct made by aldia in the same way vendrick made the golens in drangleic But that aside i think youre right, maybe with time dragons were also affected by the effects of the first flame and started developing souls and/or absorved souls with time. Theres a theory that sinhs' soul is actualy yorgh's soul because you use it to retrieve the knight's weapon, but maybe this is just for gameplay's reason. As for Kalameet and the Gaping Dragon, maybe they dont have a soul bc we fight them very early in the timeline (if we take the theory that dragons aquired/absorved souls with time) so they didnt had souls yet, by the time we took sinh down the fire was already rekindled many times, not to mentíon we fight kalameet in the long past of ds1. Maybe midir was different bc he was born among gods and fought/"devoured" the dark (which is related to the dark soul of men), but even after eons of fire Ancient Wyvern dont drop a specific soul when we defeat it. So i believe (with no concrete evidence) that the dragons that do drop souls do so because something changed them with time (sinh was bound to yorgh, ancient dragon was a simulacrum made with a giant's soul, duke's dear freyja's soul was actualy seath's soul, and seath had a piece of gwyn's soul, midir was raised among gods and humans and spent ages fighting the dark/abyss and was corrupted by it, oceiros wasnt a true dragon)
Who's the Old Dragonslayer in DS2? Ornstein's set is unique, so how is it in two places? I feel like the real Ornstein is the one in DS2, because you don't technically see him in DS3, it could be that the Nameless King recovered his student's armor and put it there as a sign of respect or something.
Overlord is right, we have to take Dark Souls 2 as another chapter in the game series. I know I struggle just to start the game up, because it just doesn't look or feel like a Souls game to me. Still, we must take it for its merit.
Dark souls 3 references ds2 like Dark souls 2 references ds1. dark souls 3 is a game that takes place in a world where time and space is truly murky and convoluted. hence more clear connections to ds1 compared to ds2
If Havel was a dragonslayer, I think his weapon isn't the only trophy of his. I think his rock armor is actually made of dragon scales. While he may not be weak to lightning, persay, the armor set's weakest elemental resistance in all 3 games is lightning.
Could just mean his armor is made of stone, and stone being weak to lightning strikes BUT then again aren't the dragons basically made of stone? Hmmmmmm
Havel's Set description in DS1 explicitly mention they were carved from solid rock. I'm actually disappointed it isn't made of Dragon Scales, but that does nothing to change my opinion of everyone's favorite unstoppable dragonslayer.
I like the theory of Ornstein being a dragon and you're quite convincing about it. I also love the way you explain Havel's relationship to the NK. However, NK tamed the stormdrake (lightning storm miracle) so it cannot be Ornstein. Why would you tame a friend ? To me, the most important about this "3 musketeers" lore is this sentence : "The shield offers high protection to lightning, which the Dragonslayer commanded as his own, and its Skill has faint echoes of the Dragonslayer's OWN fighting style." The key word is own ! As you may have noticed, the dragonslayer armour uses a very different fighting style than that of Ornstein. NK's spear was the first of its kind. This means that Ornstein spear is a copy of NK's. I deduce that Ornstein fighting style is basically a copy of that of the NK, who was most likely his teacher. So here is my theory ! Ornstein was taught fighting by NK. NK allied with the dragons. Ornstein kept Anor Londo safe for a while but then decided to go look for the NK. He found him at Archdragon's peak and he realize there was no convincing him. So he casted away his armor and his spear. Maybe he went back to Anor Londo but eventually he ended up in Lothric where he created his own fighting style using an axe and a shield. Ironically, his armor is found in front of the sun altar dedicated to NK. Maybe he even met Havel there who taught him is shield&mace fighting style. The combination of both NK and Havel style becoming Ornstein's own.
well thing is how the stone said "it showed the smallness of humans" wouldnt that mean orenstien turned wild when he attained his new form and he had to tame the stormdrake back to a right sense of comfort or mind
Okay... But assuming the old master of the dragonslayer armor was Ornstein, then when did he develop his new fighting style ? He went to look for NK and then transformed into a drake ? Then when did he go to Lothric and when did he create his new fighting style ? And why did he go to the Peak with his old armor and old spear ? If you assume Ornstein is the drake and he went mad after transforming then he cannot be the dragonslayer from Lothric.
+kunnykuni didn't the item description say that it was just his armour being possessed by the pilgrim butteffly, not an actual being inside the armour?
IsThat Ruby? Yes, it did ! But it also says that the armor remembers the hunting sports of its master. So it most likely uses the fighting style of its old master. There used to be a dragonslayer wielding an axe and a shield who was wearing that armor. But the armor you fight is empty and its owner is either gone or dead...
I always assumed it was NK's armor since he was a god of war. That title is usually given through prowess and skill of multiple weapons/techniques. He wasn't just a master of the sword spear. Plus the similar, but not exact, nature of their fighting style. Or at the very least a worshiper of NKs because there is no way for Orentstien to have gotten that armor, weapon, and drastic change to his combat art within the time span.
As a mad dark souls lore fan, I'm surprised I've only just come across your channel. I can't stop watching your content man, you provide so much evidence to back up your ideas and it really gets you thinking. Keep up the great work : ]
another thing to support it is that dragons do not have souls the souls came to place with the first flame, after the ancient dragons, and seath created sorceries once he was given a soul by gwyn if the drake is not ornstein, at least it would be safe to say it has his soul
+Carlos Flores the ancient dragon in DS2 wasn't a true dragon. It drops the soul of a giant, so it was really an imitation dragon made from a giant's soul
Dark Souls 2 Dragon Memory. Ancient Dragons soul. This dragon wasn't a shitty copy like Aldia was. Besides, we never exactly kill Ancient Dragons and get their souls, we never get the chance.
So we don't know if that was his soul or not eh? Kalameet doesn't drop a soul and neither does Seath and I believe those were the last dragons. I usually don't count anything in DS2 since Miyazaki wasn't the one in control of it. And we all know we can't kill the stone dragon either......dang
Fascinating Theory. thinking about it. Having Ornstein´s armor lying on the ground, cant be meaningless. It does make sense since, if you try and see into the nameless king´s dragon, it has a tighter resemblance with our character´s dragon form than with the type of dragons that you find alongside the game. Amazing channel you´ve got. you have my full support on it!!
How lovely. Didn't expect much from some rookie randomly fighting his allies. You have dishonored the legacy of Knight Artorias. Show some respect, and bow to the royal family.
Except that the Abyss Watchers ARE his legacy... x) And they basically walked in the EXACT same trap as Artorias, getting corrupted by the very thing they swore to destroy. Cheers mate! ;D
Another shocking twist. You are very good in noticing small details (like Ornstein's armor not being on a corpse) and combining them with existing facts and theories. Awesome job.
+Adolf Hitler that's what I thought at first too. but think about it the description just said he left in search of him. if he really did die it would've said something about it in the description.
It couldn't have gotten there by coinsidence. Unless they just wanted to give us fanservice and had no story behind why it was there but that'd be dull
Ornstein was the leader of the dragonslayers a group of elite knights created later in the first war to exterminate for good the dragons. So the armor that we find in archdragon peek is Ornstein's armor and the Dragonslayer armor is just the armor of a random dragonslayer who was under the commandement of Ornstein at some point. I mean how could it be Ornstein's if it's a different design of his, has different weapon than Ornstein, and is much bigger. This mean that the Dragonslayer armor we find in the Ringed city dlc is NOT the one from Lothric castle but another old Dragonslayers armor. Also the theory that the Ornstein is just an illusion is prossible but in DS II we find Ornstein much older, slower, and weaker than in DS I so I believe that this could be the real Ornstein after hundreds of years travelling to find the Nameless king, maybe that's why he ended up near Drangleic but we killed him there too and this time it couldn't be an illusion so maybe the other theory that cycles are repiting itself's when the fire is once linked seems more probable to me but anyway... i'm just theorising
The entire theme of Dark Souls 3 is the revival of Unkindled characters. People always seem to forget this, but a lot of the characters from this game have been revived by the Bells of Awakening, like Andre, for example. Why is it hard to believe that the Havel knight we fight is the real Havel? It's very possible that he's an Unkindled person like us. The biggest mysteries in this game are caused by this phenomenon. Any character can be Unkindled, which opens up a lot of possibilities and interpretations and that's what's so brilliant about the plot of Dark Souls 3. Sky's the limit with lore theories!
Most people tend to forget, Havel was one person followed by his Havel Knights, who were taught to fight like him. He has his own martial style and a legacy as he had an entire unit like him. Remember the Havel's ring? That did not belong to Havel, he was strong enough to wield his own gear where as his knights wore the ring to keep up. Now obviously they didn't all rock a dragon's tooth but he is much more likely that this "Havel" is one who studied his ways or something like that rather being the one true Havel.
One thing, I really love the idea of onrstein being the storm drake, but then i remembered lightning storm miracle says that nameless king *tamed* the storm drake. Makes me sad cause it's an awesome theory. Edit: Also, not for sure, but to me the "serpents" described by the serpent rings always made me think of the primordial serpents.
If you look at the story posited in this vid with a poet's eyes, still holds. Ornstein's mighty will was effectively 'tamed' by NK once he elected to become draconic. Especially if he originally set out to kill NK before learning of the Path.
This is also a theory but what if he had completely turned into a dragon and therefore no longer had control over himself and the nameless King tamed him do to the fact that they were good friends and he wanted to continue fighting alongside him. I also believe that during the process of taming the dragon the nameless King was able to create the dragon stones to mimic this process ornstein went through to a lesser degree and that the nameless King was only able to do this because the storm Drake still had the soul of ornstein.
@@justinwright1857 i subscribe to this theory. there’s no way of telling what psychological effects come from becoming a dragon, a completely different beast. i can definitely see that a man will lose his humanity after becoming s dragon
Well I noticed that when he absorbs the Stormdrake's soul he gains the ability to have trails of a storm or wind with each attack making it seem the lightning was caused by the Nameless king and the cyclone of wind by the Stormdrake's soul which would become an argument against it being Ornstein
Fairly sure that dark souls 3 is basically what happened if the undead wasn't released in the first game. That would explain the whole ornstein being alive and the theory that smough is aldrich
Ornstein is considered by many, even before Dark Souls 2 was released, to be an illusion in the first game. And as far as I know the only connection between Smough and Aldrich is that they eat people. But it seems like Aldrich completely consumes people, while Smough just grinds their bones into his food, like a nice seasoning. In all honesty, I think the fact that they try to push Aldrich as a Cleric who went bad separates him from Smough. Its unlikely Smough was ever a human, either a giant or a god of some kind, while Clerics have only ever been thought of as humans before.
So we have Gwyn. Who has 2 known kids, gwynevere and Gwyndolin. Naming the 3th one faraam is kinda a dick move. No wonder he revolted against his father
Tin Darkmoon Catalyst states Gwindolin is Gwyn's lastborn and a Legitimate god... that specific explanation is the point in which we all know that there's something funny there... if he is Gwyn's son then he obviously is a Legitimate god, so why the clarification? If he is a god why using a Catalyst for Miracles, gods don't need chimes nor catalysts do they? There's no Gwyndolin statue or anything... Gwyndolin is a boy but was raised as a girl so he doesn't claim to be the heir of the throne cause Gwyn doesn't want him to be "his son" but he is ok to be his daughter and a legitimate one... Gwyndolin has snakes, which are known to be related to dragons. There's more about Gwyndolin, Velka, Yorshka, Seath, the Archives and Lothric and why you find snake dudes after Consumed Oceiros (who uses Seath magic and has a child that can disappear just like Priscilla :O). But definitely not Gwyn's natural child....
Yeah, except it states in the description of the Darkmoon Catalyst that Gwyndolin is the last born of Gwyn. And that he is a moon sorcerer, meaning that he would need a catalyst for sorceries, as he uses no miracles.
Yorshka says this: "Long ago, our father Gwyn, lamenting the waning of the fire, became cinder of his owen will. Now, the fire is linked by the champions who have come in his stead. Such is the will of father, and the gods. And so the Darkmoon knights took arms, to watch over those who link the fire." Sure, it is possibly she didn't mean this literally, but let's assume she does for the sake of this argument, because that would mean Gwyn fucked a dragon. That would explain why Priscilla is locked away, because Gwyn is ashamed of her. Hypocritical bastard.
@@justinwright1857 The Serpent Summoner near the statue of Kalameet, where the player can get the Calamity Ring, has a chance of summoning a Havel knight instead of a Drakeblood knight. It is a low chance, but it is possible.
Ahh, I'm really beginning to enjoy your lore videos. Highly insightful and very well presented. Despite The Nameless King being one of the "hardest" bosses, he is by far my favorite character. I was never a huge proponent of the Solaire theory and to see it finally put to rest with more concrete evidence made me happy. :D One thing I noted in the cut scene where he ends the drake's life is how his hand shakes ever so slightly before the killing blow. Perhaps another nod to how close his relationship was to not only the beast, but the man the beast once was.
I still maintain that the iron dragonslayer armor belonged to Havel and not Ornstein for the reason that Ornstein fights with a spear much in the same way that his former master TNK did, while the Iron Dragonslayer we fight uses a a greatshield and what appears to be a large obsidian axe/glaive possibly made out of a dragon tooth?? And who is the only dragonslayer we know who used a greatshield and a large hulking weapon other than the knights of Havel and more than likely Havel himself. Not only that but the Havel helmet has a Mohawk-like design that, to me, could be a symbol of the red plume that the iron dragonslayer helmet has, similar to Ornstein on account of the two of them being dragonslayers who served under the firstborn i.e. TNK (or Faraam).
Nice vid but the Ricard thing was a bit... a LOT iffy. There's not much connection between him and the firstborn, Ricard is clearly human being undead and all and in DrkS there's a clear separation between gods and human. It's not just a simple status thing, they are 2 different races. It's more plausible that Ricard was actually related in some form to the knight king Rendal.
Shadow_Dragon Well, we have plenty of Balder knights just outside Sen's fortress and practically at the feet of the Iron Golem. It's also speculated that the knights of Berenike are actually balder knights of higher rank (berenike maybe being a division of the Balder army, or a region). Now, we know that Balder is were the badass things are, even their king is a knight (knight king Rendal) so it's possible that the king and his knights tried to take Sen's fortress to have audience with the gods, maybe because of the undead plague which was infesting Balder (we know that Balder is a fallen kingdom). It seems to me that, due to his particular location, Ricard had something to do with the fallen Rendal and his knights. Maybe he was escorting the king, maybe he went on a journey in search of the king. However, considering the great amount of Balder knights (ubdead Balder knights, Tarkus, knights of Berenike) in the Sen area, I think it's more plausible that Ricard is somewhat related to Balder.
I had a similar theory of Ornstein looking for the firstborn, but I thought it was during the time of the DLC of Dark Souls 1. We see everyone but Ornstein. Where was Ornstein during this? If they sent the 3 knights of Gwyn after the abyss, why not send your strongest there. Being that Artorias wasn't a match for the abyss. My only issue with the theory is that, why would Ornstein leave his post. He was faithful to Gwyn and the first born. It doesn't seem very knightly to up and just leave your post, which was literally Gwyn's dying wish for a heir to the fire. You also get Ornstein's soul when killing Ornstein in Anor Londo, but you don't receive anything when fighting the dragon with the nameless king. It's not like someone becoming a dragon warrants them not dropping a soul. You have the King in the basement of Lothric Castle who went insane and dragons in general in the game drop their souls as well. I think everyone was well put together, but I think just placing Ornstein as an illusion in Anor Londo really needs to be more researched. Gwynevere's illusion dies in one hit, so why wouldn't Ornstein's. You also see Ornstein's finger move as he's dying, if you see him first. Gwynevere's illusion was pretty straight forward, but this seems like a lot of detail just for an illusion. And I also want to add a counter argument, in case it does come up. I've heard before that everything in Anor Londo is an illusion, meaning everything that we fight was an illusion by Gwyndolan. And when you kill Gwynevere, the illusion fades along with everything in Anor Londo, although what I believe is that, it represents the actual passage of time. Yes, Gwynevere is an illusion, as is the Sun in Anor Londo since it becomes night time soon after, but everything is gone but a few things, The Black Smith and the two people in the Grand Hall. Which would be the result of time passing. I'm not sure if the painting guardians are still there though, that's one thing I am unsure of, but I'm not sure if that would be relevant or not.
Right now I'm thinking the Sable Church of Londor. I won't give you to much insight right now, but I'll give snippet of one of my theories from it. There are 3 chaos witches unaccounted for. I think they are the 3 sisters who founded the Church. But you'll have to wait for the video to find out why I think that is! ;)
youre missing a few huge parts. the moonlight butterfly and the dead blacksmiths in ds1 can help you bridge the gaps. the butterfly watches over havels chamber, as well as the first faith ember, which you need before upgrading to occult. all 3 of those blacksmiths are long dead. (3rd being the one with large faith ember in tomb of giants. seath did experiments, and those lizard men are closer to what seath wanted than what the maidens became.) ash lake is hard to explain havel, got any ideas from that?
One thing about the dragonslayer armor, the armor you fight isn't ornstein's, that's the set the nameless king wore back when he was a dragonslayer himself.
aside from the fact that it looks nothing like the dragonslayer's armor, its face has a hawk design and, as the guy mentioned in this video you find ornstein's armor in another location? nothing really.
Great vid! Minor detail: I'm more inclined to believe that Havel was locked away in the tower by Ornstein, not by the Firstborn. My assumption, chronologically, would be that after his new alligeance was revealed the Firstborn was exiled from Anor Londo, Havel would then settle to follow him and make him pay for his betrayal, for his hatred for the dragons was great. He might have shared this plan with Ornstein himself, but regardless of how the First knight found it out he decided that it would be too foolhardy for Havel to face the Firstborn, for even stripped by his deific status he was still a remarkable foe (also,Ornstein loyalty towards the ex-God might have played a part on this decision). Hence the imprisonment "for his own good". Side assumptions would regard the secret occult stash: Havel might have prepared it himself while brooding over his intent, possibly severing his speculated connection with the "ill-fated plot to destroy the very gods" mentioned in the Effigy Shield. IF the two events are not the same!
Valid theory, but I still believe Gwyn locked him instead of the Nameless King or Ornstein. To me it is weird for that dear friend of him to be someone else other than Gwyn if their former-relationship is specifically stated in the game (Havel's ring / Great Magic Barrier). Lore wise, I think there are many videos proving Havel was locked by Gwyn, so I don't bother explaining here. But these videos can't disprove the theory that the dear friend of him is someone else either. One thing that bothers me the most is where and when we can get the Havel's set. Why did he spawn next to the Stray Demon? Why did the corpse appear only after we killed the Havel's follower in Archdragon Peak?........The *Rock* Stray Demon and Havel's the *Rock*........Come on FromSoft there is no time for this kind of joke ._.""
Shunsui Kyoraku You're not alone. I honestly feel that his location was a choice dictated more by gameplay experience than lore. - "Yeah, you can have a shortcut, but here's a tough as nail miniboss guarding it. Have Fun!" - "Thanks FROM" *dies* IMO you gotta keep a bit of suspensioon of disbelief looking at these things otherwise minor discrepancies will have your guts :D For example: Havel brandishes a frikken Dragon tooth, you mean to tell me he couldn't breach through those wooden doors? Let's believe instead that, even in his hollowing, he accepted his exile and imprisonment :D
This was a really interesting video. I love the lore surrounding the Nameless King, and Ornstein has always been a personal favorite character of mine. Kinda wish I could stick with a Faith build long enough to create something similar.
Reminder that the Dragonless Age can only be the third game, since the first two had the last surviving everlasting dragons (and their covenants). The third game does not have the dragon covenant, nor dragons (only drakes). This seem to lead that Ornstein hunted the last dragons (Old Dragonslayer in DSII) and went to the nameless king in III. The theory of transformation is pretty good and fits well though. Especially in parallel to the butterflies transformation. I do think the reference that Havel Himself dropped the tooth refers to the one you actually kill. Since otherwise it would be closer to "Originally wielded by the knigh Havel" rather than "Dropped by Havel himself". The latter implies the last time it was dropped, was by Havel.
That was great. Phenomenal. Standing ovation. WOW!!!! Thank you once again for taking your personal time and giving us these wonderfully, well researched and detailed videos.
I know I'm late to this party but since you brought up the description of Ornsteins armor I'd like to point out that of Smough's armor which reads. "Grotesque armor associated with Smough, *the last knight to stand in defense of the ruined cathedral.*" This does seem to lend a lot of credence to the theory that Ornstein had in fact, already departed Anor Londo by the time the Chosen undead arrived in the city. Which I until recently had dismissed as baseless speculation, and the wishful thinking of overhyped Ornstein fans.
Something I noticed that really sealed the "Faraam is Nameless King" thing for me is not only the description of the armor, but also the appearance. Take a close look at the etching on the top of the Faraam Knight Helmet
@7:20 I read that more as evidence for it being Havel himself, since he drops them on death they are left by him then, as the description says. The other evidence of this is the fact the chosen undead left Priscilla and Gywndolin alive shows a merciful nature, perhaps out of pity he unlocked the door for Havel to find unlocked later? Thus starting his quest that ends in archdragon peak
Now that you mention all of this fascinating evidence and speculation of your's, I think I'm going to adopt your theory. This is truly amazing for you to have dug all of this information up from both the games and your imagination. I think I really want to be content with believing your theory, thank you for letting it be known. I don't know you, but I know you're awesome.
Dude I wonder if the huge Dragon corpse you see on top of that mountain (right in front of the spot where you do the gesture to get the twinkling dragon head stone) is actually Ornstein, assuming your theory about him becoming a dragon is correct
the reason I say that is the description states that only one may hold that mantle and since the dragon is dead you can be the next person to become a dragon
when the nameless king took the strom's soul, he gained the ability of wind..not lightning..he already had that. also, the dragonslayer armor,i believe it once belonged to the nameless king..i mean,if you look at it and Ornsteins,perhaps Ornstein took his Masters idea.but one thing im sure of it is that it doesnt belong to Ornstein himself.Another thing is this..the Ornstein you first in Dark souls(1) is the Legit Ornstein.not half his soul or an Illusion...once defeated you attain his soul.point blank. I also believe the Sunlight Cov. was created by Solaire to honor someone..this someone to be his former master..the nameless king.Its sed he had two..I beleive Ornstein was one while Sunbro was the other. and Havel,well, it's a bit of a pickle talking about him, my biggest questions or this...who locked him up? its clear he was a very close friend to Gwyn and fought side by side....but was it really gwyn? perhaps you are right and it was Firstborn..but look at who has the key to Havels cell..blacksmith thats dead,a blacksmith that once was a master of Divine weapondry.hmmm.Divine..hmm,wasnt Havel once a Bishop? who else was a Bishop? LLoyd.maybe allfather lloyd was the freind who lockd Havel.just a thought.
It is confirmed in ds3 that you didn't actually fight Ornstein, and that it is probably a piece of his soul, or an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. You can't deny the facts
+Yadier Correderas It was confirmed on Smough's armor that he was the lone knight to stay and guard the princess. Whether Gwydolin was a side boss or not doesn't excuse that the player character can kill him, which just corroborates that the lore is written a bit messy.
Bad retcon? I don't think so. World is convoluted and time sways in and out. That has been the core idea since Dark Souls 1, not some last minute thrown together garbage.
Keith Stone By that logic, the Bearer would be asworthy of the title as the Chosen Undead since he has also slain the last true dragon for a while, that being Sinh
I just commented on your "Dark souls is Canon" video, which was awesome! THis video should also include a subtitle saying that it goes into HAVEL'S lore with extreme depth. I've been looking for great Havel Lore and this is it, so thank you!!! I'm halfway through the video and I'm nerding out over here
Maybe Havel's right hand man sacrificed himself and was locked away and Havel hid his armor to hide among the people until people forgot about him got his armor and then went to hunt down the first born (who he resented for the betrayal)
Another thing that ties the Nameless King and the Lions of Forossa. If you look at the hair on the Nameless King's crown, you can see that it looks like a Lion's mane. That's probably where they get the apellative "lion" from
I believed your theory up until the soul absorption part, which got me thinking, what if it's the other way around? Maybe the Firstborn was actually the drake and Orenstein was the Nameless King, this would explain why when the Nameless King absorbed the drake that an explosion of lightning occurred, which as we all know is gift of the Firstborn. This could also be why the family of Gwyn destroyed all references to him as they could not stand having their sun become a dragon. Any thoughts? This probably has inconsistencies somewhere but I just thought that explosion of lightning seen would not occur if one was already born the heir of it.
The only flaw I see in ur theory is why would ornstein abandon his armor and weapon to wear the nameless Kings armor and inpersonate him and wen were and how did he get the nameless Kings equipment.
The reason it explodes into a storm is because it's a storm drake after all. It also explodes with lightning which supports the theory that it is infact Ornstein. After the absorbing, the nameless king is able to use storm attacks in the phase two of the fight.
Excellent work! Your theories are pretty out-there, but they make a lot of sense. That's what I look for in a Souls lore channel - unique ideas and perspectives. Keep it up, you're definitely one to watch!
Thanks so much. I agree with you I prefer those kinds of theories, especially when they start making sense when evidence is provided! I've got a pretty wild one coming soon too. Thanks again friend! =)
My take on this is that Firstborn wanted to ally with the dragons, realizing the horrors his father did to them in the war. Havel hates the dragons but Firstborn made him see the truth, at which point Havel decided to kill Gwyn with the Occult Club. However, Firstborn warned him it would be a suicide mission since Gwyn would prove much stronger, Havel didn't listen and Firstborn had no chance but to lock him up lest he ruins the Firstborn's plan of deposing his father and create a peaceful coexistence with Dragons. But he was exiled, Gwyn linked the Flame and all power left in Anor Londo was now Gwyndolin, who despite being mocked by his own father, decided to follow in his path no matter what. Ornstein, too, sought redemption for the atrocities he did in the war, so he sided with Firstborn and left Anor Londo long before the Chosen Undead gets there. I find it quite odd that in Dark Souls, Ornstein, known at the time as Captain of the four knights, was himself quite weak in comparison to Smough, a pretender, let alone Artorias, Hawkeye and Ciaran. Therefore, it was surely an illusion Gwyndolin made, for Super Ornstein is much stronger than regular Ornstein, whereas Super Smough kind of isn't that big of an improvement over his regular self.
Minute 7:55 , i think the name you look for is Gwyn, Havel wanted to take Gwyn down because he found that the dragons weren't such a threat as Gwyn's said, Faaram new this to be truth since he befriend a dragon, when Havel and Faaram confronted the monarc he took them down with the help of Smough and Ornstein (pressumebly) , but why Ornstein's armor set was at dragon peak? And how he knew where to find it? Not really sure since there's so little info
Another thing to enforce your theory that Ornstein is the Storm Drake is that no dragons known in history have ever breathed lightning or had lightning attributes. (sure there are the ones from DS1 that breathe lightning) that is a good analysis young one, but sadly those are wyverns and from the dictionary definition they are similar to, but are completely different to dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong this thought just popped into my head and I wanted to jot it down before I forget
man I love the lore for this game and the fact that it makes people come up with some many theories each with explanations and information supporting or dismissing one aspect or another.
Good video but you overlooked a MAJOR flaw in your theory and its the Sacred oath. There is a good chance this is a mis-translation. the original text might have meant "his faithful first knight and brave dragonslayer" and the translators who aren't as intimately familiar with the lore as we are probably misread it and thought the first knight and brave dragonslayer where two different individuals. So its talking about Gywn, his FirstBorn and the Dragonslayer who served them both, Ornstein. The Japanese version says: 太陽の長子と、その筆頭騎士 そして竜狩りの剣士の物語は 最も勇壮な竜狩り譚であるという Which translates to: And the firstborn of the sun , the largest knight And the dragon hunting swordsman of the story is That is the most heroic dragon hunting Tan It only mentions 2 people which is the FirstBorn and Ornstein.
This is nothing less than amazing. Since I just got the Plat on DS Remastered, Im going through all the lore again. Dark Souls lore is just in..frkn..sane!! I could listen to this all day long.. Brilliant stuff
Your theories about ornstein are so good, so deep. Thinking of him about the first born's dragon seems crazy at first, but the evidences you give us make me genuinely believe that all you explained is right. Well done realy !
10:18 - 10:51 Since we don't know the time that he leaves, we can assume that he could have left from the Blue Cathedral in Dark Souls 2? This can also further prove why Ornstein in DS1 is an illusion, or fraction of a soul. But what I don't understand is why Ornstein switched to Hexes, and why his armor is gold once again. And since Old Dragonslayer is an optional boss, is his death canon?
I do agree that Ornstein must've become a dragon at some point, but him being the Stormdrake isn't getting through my thick skull. Sorry Awesome video though
Another great video. I actually had to stop the video and yell out an "Oh my god!" when you started getting into why you believe that Ornstein is actually the Storm Drake, because as soon as you started talking about it, I instantly saw where you were going and it hit me like a brick to the back of the head. I'm still kicking myself for not noticing that connection before. Well, granted, I did notice the similarity between what happens between Ornstein and Smough in the first Dark Souls, but the connection between that fight and this one didn't dawn on me until this video. Also, your thoughts on how Velka could have been the one to strip the First Born of his godly status is interesting, though I have to wonder if it was actually Gwyndolin who was responsible for that. After all, Gwyndolin is pretty much the one one who has control over Anor Londo after Gwyn throws himself to the fire; Gwynevere has already left, and Velka is nowhere to be seen. Not only that, but anything having to do with Velka has already been locked away in the Painted World. And considering how ruthless Gwyndolin is shown to be at times, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the one who cast the First Born out. I could also see them secretly mourning that decision though; remember that in the first game, Gwyndolin is residing in Gwyn's tomb, which is not only a monument to him, but also has the miricle left behind by the First Born, as a final momento. This loss of family could also be what made Gwyndolin later reach out to Yorshka, as she is pretty much the only one left by this point. Anyway, just my own musings.
Haha, that's awesome! Thanks so much for the support friend! That is an interesting thought about Gwyndolin stripping the firstborn of his deific status. I was just assuming that the firstborn could have just kicked his ass, lol. But I guess Gwyndolin did have his Darkmoon Blades, so that could make sense! Thanks for sharing!
For some reason reading what you wrote kinda make me think and like he sed specualtion but what about pontiff. From what i gathered on pontiff this dude is corrupted and he already had something to do with two poeple of the royal family bloodline kill Gwyndolin and the Dancer. He took over anor londo and also rouse to power in this new version of Emlyum Loyce or Irithyl. I believe he had something to do with all that since his ties with the the royal family goes deep maybe he was at one point on of the clerics of the white influtrating the family. but also another person who could of taken his status could of been All father loyd since we really dont get the chance to meet him in this game either but there has not been no conformation that loyd is dead or not and he is the one who build Gwyn to where he got pure specualtion since there more hinting pontiff been more guilty since his action can be seen all over the ruin cathederal of Anor Londo
I definitely agree that Pontiff Sulyvahn had a hand in a lot of the misery going on in Dark Souls 3, though I honestly don't think he had much to do with the Firstborn being cast out, as I feel that happened before his time. Sulyvahn was a member of the Way of White (and/or possibly a former Darkmoon Blade?? been wondering about that), who seemed to have had his rise to power when Aldridch rose to prominence, and that seems to have happened centuries after the events of the first Dark Souls. Also, even if Sulyvan was around during the events of the first game, there's no mention of him, or of any corruption going on with the Way of White, so I think ultimately he wasn't a major player until ages later. I can see why you would think he was though; this guy is one major schemer, and caused quite a lot of mayhem in his rise to power.
If not already pointed out: I think the lightning is very essential for confirming the Stormdrake to be Ornstein. Lightning is THE weakness of the ancient dragons, the force to strip them from their scales. Dragons didn't have anything against each other, or at least not known, and even if, there wouldn't be an exemplary with a power specialised in killing dragons. At least that's what I think.
oh, cmon, all these speculations are crap just because creators of the DS series didn't bother with timelines to match. basicaly, they are spitting in our faces with the timelines: we kill ornstein in ds1 then again we kill ornstein in ds2 and now in ds3 we hear a story about he doesn't give a fuck being killed twice and becoming a dragon. okay then. also, dragonslayer armour fight is weird. if it is empty armor, why the fuck it bleeds and can be staggered?
+Indifferent One You're pretty incorrect according to most people. But you're allowed to have your Debbie Downer opinion on everything. People here just don't want to see it. ;)
The theory that Ornstein was an illusion had a lot of merit even when Dark Souls 1 was newly released. And the one in Dark Souls 2 could have been a common dragonslayer dressing up as his child hero for all we know. Though i definitely agree that this theory is preposterous. Ornstein fought dragons for years, and watched many of his friends get burned alive which would just increase his hatred of dragons, but now suddenly he wishes to become the very thing he kills.. It's a lot more likely that Ornstein came to kill Gwyn's traitor son along with Havel for his betrayal of Gwyn and themselves. "We knights fought valiantly, but for every one of them, we lost three score of our own. Exhilaration, pride, hatred, rage… The dragons teased out our dearest emotions. …Thou will understand, one day."
The Ashen Hollow Hey there! This may sound stupid and the timing of this is quite late but... In Dark Souls 1 we can choose to kill either Smough or Ornstein first. We get the soul of the one we kill first so.. perhaps it is canon that the chosen undead killed "Ornstein" first, and then proceeded with Smough. That way the chosen undead does not get the soul of Ornstein and it gives more wiggle-room (so to speak) for the illusiornstein theory.
Mr33500 saying its impissible for Ornstein to turn because he was a dragonslayer is like saying the First Born couldnt turn because he was a dragon slayer as well. they ALL fought the dragons at one point or another. It said that ornstein went to the FB in a 'dragonless' age. To me, this teases out motive. It seemed that ornstein was disillusioned with his purpose in life after dragons. All three other knights were dead or lost. The queen he stayed to protect left. And the dragons he once hunted were ancient history. It teases that ornstein felt he had no purpose, and thus sought out his master for answers. That seems, to me, the most logical version of the story. If he did it for vengeance, he sure took his sweet ass time to decide to get it, huh? And lets not for a second fool ourselves into thinking Ornstein even dreamed he could take the FB. First of all FB was his master, and second Havel wouldnt even *attempt* it without an occult weapon. FB was not to be fucked with my dude.
I also have an interesting (but probably flawed) theory about Ornstein and his (canon or not) appearance in Dark souls 2. if we find a club imbued with Occult in Dark Souls 1, because Havel went after Gwyn's Firstborn, maybe that's why we find Ornstein using Dark magic in Dark Souls 2. I can't quite explain why he's being guarded by dragons and dragonriders ( i guess this would be the big flaw in my theory ) but maybe Ornstein ended up there in his journey to catch the Firstborn. Now in DS3 he found The Nameless King and probably lost to him, and because they used to be close, Nameless King stripped Ornstein of his darkness and armour and offered him another chance to fight alongside his old friend as a dragon. But that's just a theory. :D
Thespc54 I completely agree with you it is a little curious when we see ornstein's fingers move and smough only acquired lightning unlike ornstein but who knows maybe we will get more answers in the dlc maybe we will even re encounter ornstein in the dlc that is just something that I think would be awesome
a thing alot of people seem to miss, is the description of the yellow stoneplate ring. it says that its the ring for knights who became dragons, and we also know that the king oceros was transformed into one. my theory however is that, the firstborn, had a child with a dragon(priscilla), and was banished for it, thats when he created the dragon covenant. as for the havel we face, the armor description talk about warriors who followed havel, so its safe to assume that one isnt him.
Haven't played dark souls 3 but the dragon lore you gave was really interesting. Epically the part where you talked about the snake men, they must have been people like the nameless king or ornate in who wanted to become dragons but probably not worthy
Also something Vaati pointed out, not on his channel, but on one of Criken's Edwad Emberpants episodes, ironically enough, that you can see The Nameless Kings spear hand subtly shaking right before he kills and absorbs the Storm Drake, further pointing out the mourning of his lost friend. Doesn't really further prove if it's Ornstein or not, but still pretty interesting.
a little note: mimics are commonly carrying dark or abyss aligned items, this is because of the nature of the abyss and all things derived there of. we can see this nature in the dark serpent pyromancy's description as essentially free will, or more accurately they have a will of their own that you must contend with, dominate, and enslave to use without becoming navlann. this nature drives dark items to make chests into mimics as a function of their will dominating the inanimate object.
Dude, I don't know how you only have 2.7k subs. I like your lore vids more than Vaati's. You aren't afraid to talk about a lot more of the "what if" scenarios that he ignores. You may not have the same production quality but you put out more vids that cover way more lore. Keep it up man.
Thank you for the compliment dude! I set out with the intentions of doing "what ifs' just because that is what Dark Souls has always meant to me. The lore videos that cover things that are specifically canon are still awesome! I just like stretching the imagination. Thanks for watching friend! =)
I was wondering about the 'Lightning Storm' description in which it says that the Nameless King 'tamed a Stormdrake'. Doesn't exactly sound like they were best buds from the land before time or whatever. Sounds more like the Stormdrake is just a big dragon that the Nameless King looked at and decided that he wanted it to be his noble steed. Apart from that, this video was awesome! Really like the whole 'three musketeers' thing and I had never really read the Ring of the First Born so that all tying together was cool.
There's also serpent men in the lower point of the Duke's Archives in DS1, they activate the tentacle monster trap. Maybe their placement there could just be Seath's experimenting or that being in proximity with one of the major dragons in the game hints at their imperfection of the dragon form.
just an extra thought built on your very end bit about velka, if velka is gwyn's wife and the kings mother, it would make sense for her to show him the kindness of having his betrayal merely reduced in history to "a foolish mistake" possibly even the loss of the annals was her attempt to protect him from the stain of betrayal.
Perhaps that is why the thunder stone plate ring is just outside of the boss arena where you find the Ornstein set. The ring says it was given to those who would become dragons after all...
His weapon in DS1 is a Glaive which is in itself a sword blade mounted on a spear haft. His broken statue is wielding it at the altar of Sunlight. He also kind of looks like the Nameless King but less crazy.
''How To Train Your Ornestein'' coming next summer
From the people who brought you "Smough" , "Anor Londo", and "Over the Dreg".
*”and that was a damn lie”*
In my opinion, Havel did not want to kill the Firstborn. He wanted revenge against Gwyn for giving Seath so much recognition and basically siding with Seath. Havel hated Seath with a stinging passion and he thought that Gwyn had practically betrayed him. So, he made a plan to kill Gwyn. But Gwyn found out, and sealed him away. Perhaps the, "For his own good" wasn't meaning of Havel, but for Gwyn's own good.
Maybe it was for Havel's good, probably he chosed between killing him and close him there
+Jacob Doyle I don't think that was there the entire time havel was locked up seeing as upon arrival it just lands in the bridge but I see what you mean
no I I don't think that happened because gwyn was already dead. he was a hollow in the kiln of the first flame which only the chosen undead could go to. and havel is the only other dragonslayer besides the other three knights and the firstborn.
"let me seal away this unstoppable force of pure rape behind *A WOODEN DOOR*"
Is it Havel in the Tower locked away in DS1?!?! In my opp. he is not. It is only one of his followers, becuase he gives you havels Ring. (Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load.) So why should havel wear his own ring he normally hand down to weaker soldiers so that they can wear his heavy amor? So the (There are rumors of a hero turned Hollow who was locked away by a dear friend. For his own good, of course.) means more that Havel himself locked one of his fellow Soldiers away and not that Gwyn locked Havel away... Havel itself in DS1 is a dead corps in the great Hollo! The one that has the Great magic barrier... if you want some proof, therefore I have not enought space here ;-P
Faraam -> Lions -> Lions is the "king of animals" -> The Nameless KING -> The nameless kings headdress almost looks like a lions mane. I think this one is solid.
Kian Klenø well, I think it’s very plausible he is Faraam. But that it isn’t his birth name, perhaps just a name the Knights of Forossa bestowed upon him as a semblance of Power & Lions. I believe he is truly nameless in that; his name will never again be discovered.
And Faraam was a god of war
@@markushaahr9194 Given the naming scheme he could just be Gwyn Jr, or some other name that starts with Gwyn. However, him being a former God of War, I think his name is Sen, and Sen's Fortress used to be his, to train Silver Knights and defend Anor Londo during the war with the dragons. There's no mention of a Sen anywhere in the game, other than the name of the fortress, which would make sense if his name was stricken from the records of history. Sen's Fortress might still be named that because it's always been named that way and that name is no longer associated with the firstborn, or it was widely known by that name, and the gods changed it, but the people outside of Anor Londo still remember/refer to it by its original name.
@@PunkZombie1300 filianore doesn't have the gwyn thing in her name
@@VanessaCamburao I mean there's only so many Gwyn names he could use before he runs out, not everyone is George Foreman.
The other interesting point that reinforces your theory is that originally Dragons do not have special souls (aside from the Seath who was granted it by Gwyn), not even Kalameet, yet Nameless King claims the soul of his fallen comrade as was custom in the age of gods.
Oh, wow. I didn't even think about that. Great insight friend, thanks for sharing! And thanks for watching! =)
@
Vicanti Rasumovski @The Ashen Hollow Sorry, but Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon drops his soul after being beaten.
@@coldray5 we both know that game doesn’t make any sense.
@@coldray5
Ancient Dragon has a soul. (DS2)
Sinh, the Slumbering Dragon has a soul. (DS2)
Darkeater Midir has a soul. (DS3)
The only reason why I can think that these 3 in particular have a soul compared to other dragons, is because they have been heavily steeped in death and must have absorbed a massive amount of souls before it died.
AD = The Dragon War.
Sinh = The Death of Shulva.
Midir = Constantly eating Humanity.
Both Kalameet and Gaping Dragon are recluses, so they didn't really get a chance to absorb a massive amount of souls. Seath had Gwyn's Soul Fragment, so any souls acquired would have been absorbed by it.
@@Battleguild the ancient dragon have a soul bc it is a construct made by aldia in the same way vendrick made the golens in drangleic
But that aside i think youre right, maybe with time dragons were also affected by the effects of the first flame and started developing souls and/or absorved souls with time. Theres a theory that sinhs' soul is actualy yorgh's soul because you use it to retrieve the knight's weapon, but maybe this is just for gameplay's reason. As for Kalameet and the Gaping Dragon, maybe they dont have a soul bc we fight them very early in the timeline (if we take the theory that dragons aquired/absorved souls with time) so they didnt had souls yet, by the time we took sinh down the fire was already rekindled many times, not to mentíon we fight kalameet in the long past of ds1.
Maybe midir was different bc he was born among gods and fought/"devoured" the dark (which is related to the dark soul of men), but even after eons of fire Ancient Wyvern dont drop a specific soul when we defeat it. So i believe (with no concrete evidence) that the dragons that do drop souls do so because something changed them with time (sinh was bound to yorgh, ancient dragon was a simulacrum made with a giant's soul, duke's dear freyja's soul was actualy seath's soul, and seath had a piece of gwyn's soul, midir was raised among gods and humans and spent ages fighting the dark/abyss and was corrupted by it, oceiros wasnt a true dragon)
Also, I was reminded that we find the Man-Serpents in the Duke's Archive as well. So forget I said they were only in two places!!!
Who's the Old Dragonslayer in DS2? Ornstein's set is unique, so how is it in two places? I feel like the real Ornstein is the one in DS2, because you don't technically see him in DS3, it could be that the Nameless King recovered his student's armor and put it there as a sign of respect or something.
+Egyptian Overlord just think of DS2 as non canon and DS3 lore makes sense.
***** DS2 is canon, whether you like it or not.
Overlord is right, we have to take Dark Souls 2 as another chapter in the game series. I know I struggle just to start the game up, because it just doesn't look or feel like a Souls game to me. Still, we must take it for its merit.
Dark souls 3 references ds2 like Dark souls 2 references ds1.
dark souls 3 is a game that takes place in a world where time and space is truly murky and convoluted.
hence more clear connections to ds1 compared to ds2
If Havel was a dragonslayer, I think his weapon isn't the only trophy of his. I think his rock armor is actually made of dragon scales. While he may not be weak to lightning, persay, the armor set's weakest elemental resistance in all 3 games is lightning.
Could just mean his armor is made of stone, and stone being weak to lightning strikes BUT then again aren't the dragons basically made of stone? Hmmmmmm
Jeremy Melendez Yes, Everlasting Dragon scales are very stone-like.
+ShallowShi actually I'm pretty sure it specifically says in the cutscene in the first game that they had stone scales
Havel's Set description in DS1 explicitly mention they were carved from solid rock. I'm actually disappointed it isn't made of Dragon Scales, but that does nothing to change my opinion of everyone's favorite unstoppable dragonslayer.
@@AdolfHitler-uq8ec this
I wish we get to have dragonslayer armour's armor, wouldve been soo badass
I know. I think we should have all the humanoid boss armors. Yhorms armor would be nice to have too
+Sunwakka ikr, i hope we can get their armor from the dlc if they will ever make 1
GeekerDeed There will be DLC
+Sunwakka Yhorms armour was to be in the game but then they took it out for some reason.
+GeekerDeed Two confirmed dlcs
I like the theory of Ornstein being a dragon and you're quite convincing about it.
I also love the way you explain Havel's relationship to the NK.
However, NK tamed the stormdrake (lightning storm miracle) so it cannot be Ornstein.
Why would you tame a friend ?
To me, the most important about this "3 musketeers" lore is this sentence :
"The shield offers high protection to lightning, which the Dragonslayer commanded as his own, and its Skill has faint echoes of the Dragonslayer's OWN fighting style."
The key word is own !
As you may have noticed, the dragonslayer armour uses a very different fighting style than that of Ornstein.
NK's spear was the first of its kind. This means that Ornstein spear is a copy of NK's.
I deduce that Ornstein fighting style is basically a copy of that of the NK, who was most likely his teacher.
So here is my theory !
Ornstein was taught fighting by NK.
NK allied with the dragons.
Ornstein kept Anor Londo safe for a while but then decided to go look for the NK.
He found him at Archdragon's peak and he realize there was no convincing him.
So he casted away his armor and his spear.
Maybe he went back to Anor Londo but eventually he ended up in Lothric where he created his own fighting style using an axe and a shield.
Ironically, his armor is found in front of the sun altar dedicated to NK.
Maybe he even met Havel there who taught him is shield&mace fighting style. The combination of both NK and Havel style becoming Ornstein's own.
well thing is how the stone said "it showed the smallness of humans" wouldnt that mean orenstien turned wild when he attained his new form and he had to tame the stormdrake back to a right sense of comfort or mind
Okay... But assuming the old master of the dragonslayer armor was Ornstein, then when did he develop his new fighting style ?
He went to look for NK and then transformed into a drake ? Then when did he go to Lothric and when did he create his new fighting style ?
And why did he go to the Peak with his old armor and old spear ?
If you assume Ornstein is the drake and he went mad after transforming then he cannot be the dragonslayer from Lothric.
+kunnykuni didn't the item description say that it was just his armour being possessed by the pilgrim butteffly, not an actual being inside the armour?
IsThat Ruby? Yes, it did !
But it also says that the armor remembers the hunting sports of its master.
So it most likely uses the fighting style of its old master.
There used to be a dragonslayer wielding an axe and a shield who was wearing that armor.
But the armor you fight is empty and its owner is either gone or dead...
I always assumed it was NK's armor since he was a god of war. That title is usually given through prowess and skill of multiple weapons/techniques. He wasn't just a master of the sword spear. Plus the similar, but not exact, nature of their fighting style. Or at the very least a worshiper of NKs because there is no way for Orentstien to have gotten that armor, weapon, and drastic change to his combat art within the time span.
As a mad dark souls lore fan, I'm surprised I've only just come across your channel. I can't stop watching your content man, you provide so much evidence to back up your ideas and it really gets you thinking. Keep up the great work : ]
+Gypsy King thanks so much friend! =D
+The Ashen Hollow hey do u think I should get ds3 or ds1?
BeaverGodz 1. All day err day! =)
Agreed, playing dark souls 1 will just make your experience with dark souls 3 that much greater : ]
+The Ashen Hollow ok thnx
another thing to support it is that dragons do not have souls
the souls came to place with the first flame, after the ancient dragons, and seath created sorceries once he was given a soul by gwyn
if the drake is not ornstein, at least it would be safe to say it has his soul
Holy shit I did not notice that!
I was about to mention the ancient Dragon in ds2 but lol Dark Souls 2.
I learn something new everyday don't I.
+Carlos Flores the ancient dragon in DS2 wasn't a true dragon. It drops the soul of a giant, so it was really an imitation dragon made from a giant's soul
But you can find his soul in the dragon memory...
Dark Souls 2 Dragon Memory. Ancient Dragons soul. This dragon wasn't a shitty copy like Aldia was. Besides, we never exactly kill Ancient Dragons and get their souls, we never get the chance.
So we don't know if that was his soul or not eh?
Kalameet doesn't drop a soul and neither does Seath and I believe those were the last dragons. I usually don't count anything in DS2 since Miyazaki wasn't the one in control of it.
And we all know we can't kill the stone dragon either......dang
Fascinating Theory.
thinking about it. Having Ornstein´s armor lying on the ground, cant be meaningless.
It does make sense since, if you try and see into the nameless king´s dragon, it has a tighter resemblance with our character´s dragon form than with the type of dragons that you find alongside the game.
Amazing channel you´ve got.
you have my full support on it!!
Thanks so much friend!
What is private life anymore ? Two games later, you guys can't stop chasing me, right ?
stfu
How lovely. Didn't expect much from some rookie randomly fighting his allies.
You have dishonored the legacy of Knight Artorias.
Show some respect, and bow to the royal family.
Any comments on your rumoured... "Close association" with Maneater Mildred?
I have nothing to justify myself about.
Except that the Abyss Watchers ARE his legacy... x)
And they basically walked in the EXACT same trap as Artorias, getting corrupted by the very thing they swore to destroy.
Cheers mate! ;D
Another shocking twist. You are very good in noticing small details (like Ornstein's armor not being on a corpse) and combining them with existing facts and theories. Awesome job.
Thanks so much buddy! =)
the armor with no body is enough proof to me that Ornstein ascended as a dragon at some point
I heard he got murdered by the nameless king
+Adolf Hitler that's what I thought at first too. but think about it the description just said he left in search of him. if he really did die it would've said something about it in the description.
Murdered, or died seeking the king only a few steps from him.
It couldn't have gotten there by coinsidence. Unless they just wanted to give us fanservice and had no story behind why it was there but that'd be dull
@@tegridyfrogg227 he died seeking the king because the king is hollow he died trying to seek for him and when he did it ended up being ggv his fate
Ornstein was the leader of the dragonslayers a group of elite knights created later in the first war to exterminate for good the dragons. So the armor that we find in archdragon peek is Ornstein's armor and the Dragonslayer armor is just the armor of a random dragonslayer who was under the commandement of Ornstein at some point. I mean how could it be Ornstein's if it's a different design of his, has different weapon than Ornstein, and is much bigger. This mean that the Dragonslayer armor we find in the Ringed city dlc is NOT the one from Lothric castle but another old Dragonslayers armor.
Also the theory that the Ornstein is just an illusion is prossible but in DS II we find Ornstein much older, slower, and weaker than in DS I so I believe that this could be the real Ornstein after hundreds of years travelling to find the Nameless king, maybe that's why he ended up near Drangleic but we killed him there too and this time it couldn't be an illusion so maybe the other theory that cycles are repiting itself's when the fire is once linked seems more probable to me but anyway... i'm just theorising
The entire theme of Dark Souls 3 is the revival of Unkindled characters. People always seem to forget this, but a lot of the characters from this game have been revived by the Bells of Awakening, like Andre, for example. Why is it hard to believe that the Havel knight we fight is the real Havel? It's very possible that he's an Unkindled person like us. The biggest mysteries in this game are caused by this phenomenon. Any character can be Unkindled, which opens up a lot of possibilities and interpretations and that's what's so brilliant about the plot of Dark Souls 3. Sky's the limit with lore theories!
Dragon tooth "left by Havel himself"... lol
Can't be Havel...
this
uh I don't Andre ever explicitly died
Most people tend to forget, Havel was one person followed by his Havel Knights, who were taught to fight like him. He has his own martial style and a legacy as he had an entire unit like him. Remember the Havel's ring? That did not belong to Havel, he was strong enough to wield his own gear where as his knights wore the ring to keep up. Now obviously they didn't all rock a dragon's tooth but he is much more likely that this "Havel" is one who studied his ways or something like that rather being the one true Havel.
DS3 Havel didn't drop havel's ring real havel confirmed
One thing, I really love the idea of onrstein being the storm drake, but then i remembered lightning storm miracle says that nameless king *tamed* the storm drake. Makes me sad cause it's an awesome theory. Edit: Also, not for sure, but to me the "serpents" described by the serpent rings always made me think of the primordial serpents.
Also there is a shield in DS3 that says/implies that the serpent men are devolved from dragons.
If you look at the story posited in this vid with a poet's eyes, still holds. Ornstein's mighty will was effectively 'tamed' by NK once he elected to become draconic. Especially if he originally set out to kill NK before learning of the Path.
ornstein could be the first dragon you kill, or any of the dragons chilling out at the peak
This is also a theory but what if he had completely turned into a dragon and therefore no longer had control over himself and the nameless King tamed him do to the fact that they were good friends and he wanted to continue fighting alongside him. I also believe that during the process of taming the dragon the nameless King was able to create the dragon stones to mimic this process ornstein went through to a lesser degree and that the nameless King was only able to do this because the storm Drake still had the soul of ornstein.
@@justinwright1857 i subscribe to this theory. there’s no way of telling what psychological effects come from becoming a dragon, a completely different beast. i can definitely see that a man will lose his humanity after becoming s dragon
You're right.
Lugia is better than Ho-oh.
Well I noticed that when he absorbs the Stormdrake's soul he gains the ability to have trails of a storm or wind with each attack making it seem the lightning was caused by the Nameless king and the cyclone of wind by the Stormdrake's soul which would become an argument against it being Ornstein
Fairly sure that dark souls 3 is basically what happened if the undead wasn't released in the first game. That would explain the whole ornstein being alive and the theory that smough is aldrich
Ornstein is considered by many, even before Dark Souls 2 was released, to be an illusion in the first game.
And as far as I know the only connection between Smough and Aldrich is that they eat people. But it seems like Aldrich completely consumes people, while Smough just grinds their bones into his food, like a nice seasoning. In all honesty, I think the fact that they try to push Aldrich as a Cleric who went bad separates him from Smough. Its unlikely Smough was ever a human, either a giant or a god of some kind, while Clerics have only ever been thought of as humans before.
The game is about cycles, all of these people were revived
Aldritch just ate smough, thats the whole connection between them
So we have Gwyn.
Who has 2 known kids, gwynevere and Gwyndolin.
Naming the 3th one faraam is kinda a dick move.
No wonder he revolted against his father
Faraam was the first one and not to mention he can go around without being linked to Gwyn.... I consider that to be a positive.
Tin Darkmoon Catalyst states Gwindolin is Gwyn's lastborn and a Legitimate god... that specific explanation is the point in which we all know that there's something funny there... if he is Gwyn's son then he obviously is a Legitimate god, so why the clarification?
If he is a god why using a Catalyst for Miracles, gods don't need chimes nor catalysts do they?
There's no Gwyndolin statue or anything...
Gwyndolin is a boy but was raised as a girl so he doesn't claim to be the heir of the throne cause Gwyn doesn't want him to be "his son" but he is ok to be his daughter and a legitimate one...
Gwyndolin has snakes, which are known to be related to dragons.
There's more about Gwyndolin, Velka, Yorshka, Seath, the Archives and Lothric and why you find snake dudes after Consumed Oceiros (who uses Seath magic and has a child that can disappear just like Priscilla :O).
But definitely not Gwyn's natural child....
Yeah, except it states in the description of the Darkmoon Catalyst that Gwyndolin is the last born of Gwyn.
And that he is a moon sorcerer, meaning that he would need a catalyst for sorceries, as he uses no miracles.
you clearly didn't read what I wrote... too bad...
Yorshka says this: "Long ago, our father Gwyn, lamenting the waning of the fire, became cinder of his owen will.
Now, the fire is linked by the champions who have come in his stead.
Such is the will of father, and the gods. And so the Darkmoon knights took arms, to watch over those who link the fire."
Sure, it is possibly she didn't mean this literally, but let's assume she does for the sake of this argument, because that would mean Gwyn fucked a dragon. That would explain why Priscilla is locked away, because Gwyn is ashamed of her. Hypocritical bastard.
If you think Havel was there to kill the firstborn, how do reconcile that the Serpent Man Priest can summon Havel at Arch Dragon Peak?
The serpent can't summon him
Everyone's a Havel Knight. Fuck it. I'm a Havel Knight. Where the hell is the real Havel
@@buttchicken22 hahaha this cracked me up
@@justinwright1857 The Serpent Summoner near the statue of Kalameet, where the player can get the Calamity Ring, has a chance of summoning a Havel knight instead of a Drakeblood knight. It is a low chance, but it is possible.
enjoyed listening but cringed at the god mode gameplay with the misplaced rolls.
THANK YOU... it was so distracting
That explains a lot.
Mind. Blown.
That snake dude at 17:44 also got blowned . But with something more massive
Ahh, I'm really beginning to enjoy your lore videos. Highly insightful and very well presented.
Despite The Nameless King being one of the "hardest" bosses, he is by far my favorite character. I was never a huge proponent of the Solaire theory and to see it finally put to rest with more concrete evidence made me happy. :D
One thing I noted in the cut scene where he ends the drake's life is how his hand shakes ever so slightly before the killing blow. Perhaps another nod to how close his relationship was to not only the beast, but the man the beast once was.
Didn't realise before but the Nameless King's spear hand shakes a tad before he plunges it into his mount, such attention to detail!
The snake dudes were also in the Duke's Archives.
which involved a dragon, seath
I still maintain that the iron dragonslayer armor belonged to Havel and not Ornstein for the reason that Ornstein fights with a spear much in the same way that his former master TNK did, while the Iron Dragonslayer we fight uses a a greatshield and what appears to be a large obsidian axe/glaive possibly made out of a dragon tooth?? And who is the only dragonslayer we know who used a greatshield and a large hulking weapon other than the knights of Havel and more than likely Havel himself. Not only that but the Havel helmet has a Mohawk-like design that, to me, could be a symbol of the red plume that the iron dragonslayer helmet has, similar to Ornstein on account of the two of them being dragonslayers who served under the firstborn i.e. TNK (or Faraam).
Nice vid but the Ricard thing was a bit... a LOT iffy. There's not much connection between him and the firstborn, Ricard is clearly human being undead and all and in DrkS there's a clear separation between gods and human. It's not just a simple status thing, they are 2 different races. It's more plausible that Ricard was actually related in some form to the knight king Rendal.
to the what? Dont leave me hanging
Shadow_Dragon
Well, we have plenty of Balder knights just outside Sen's fortress and practically at the feet of the Iron Golem. It's also speculated that the knights of Berenike are actually balder knights of higher rank (berenike maybe being a division of the Balder army, or a region). Now, we know that Balder is were the badass things are, even their king is a knight (knight king Rendal) so it's possible that the king and his knights tried to take Sen's fortress to have audience with the gods, maybe because of the undead plague which was infesting Balder (we know that Balder is a fallen kingdom). It seems to me that, due to his particular location, Ricard had something to do with the fallen Rendal and his knights. Maybe he was escorting the king, maybe he went on a journey in search of the king. However, considering the great amount of Balder knights (ubdead Balder knights, Tarkus, knights of Berenike) in the Sen area, I think it's more plausible that Ricard is somewhat related to Balder.
They are not different races it is just lords asorbed more souls in the age of ancients
I had a similar theory of Ornstein looking for the firstborn, but I thought it was during the time of the DLC of Dark Souls 1. We see everyone but Ornstein. Where was Ornstein during this?
If they sent the 3 knights of Gwyn after the abyss, why not send your strongest there. Being that Artorias wasn't a match for the abyss.
My only issue with the theory is that, why would Ornstein leave his post. He was faithful to Gwyn and the first born. It doesn't seem very knightly to up and just leave your post, which was literally Gwyn's dying wish for a heir to the fire.
You also get Ornstein's soul when killing Ornstein in Anor Londo, but you don't receive anything when fighting the dragon with the nameless king. It's not like someone becoming a dragon warrants them not dropping a soul. You have the King in the basement of Lothric Castle who went insane and dragons in general in the game drop their souls as well.
I think everyone was well put together, but I think just placing Ornstein as an illusion in Anor Londo really needs to be more researched. Gwynevere's illusion dies in one hit, so why wouldn't Ornstein's. You also see Ornstein's finger move as he's dying, if you see him first. Gwynevere's illusion was pretty straight forward, but this seems like a lot of detail just for an illusion.
And I also want to add a counter argument, in case it does come up. I've heard before that everything in Anor Londo is an illusion, meaning everything that we fight was an illusion by Gwyndolan. And when you kill Gwynevere, the illusion fades along with everything in Anor Londo, although what I believe is that, it represents the actual passage of time.
Yes, Gwynevere is an illusion, as is the Sun in Anor Londo since it becomes night time soon after, but everything is gone but a few things, The Black Smith and the two people in the Grand Hall. Which would be the result of time passing. I'm not sure if the painting guardians are still there though, that's one thing I am unsure of, but I'm not sure if that would be relevant or not.
Great job man, keep up the good work!
Back again with a great video
I try my best! Thanks for tuning in friend! =]
+The Ashen Hollow what well your next video be not pressuring you or anything
Right now I'm thinking the Sable Church of Londor. I won't give you to much insight right now, but I'll give snippet of one of my theories from it.
There are 3 chaos witches unaccounted for. I think they are the 3 sisters who founded the Church. But you'll have to wait for the video to find out why I think that is! ;)
+The Ashen Hollow dam your teasing me man
Gabriel Perez It's so JUICY right?! =D
did you just discard that dks1 lore named Havel as brother in arms to gwyn?Ö_Ö
sometimes i have to watch your videos twice because there's such a knowledge bomb that I can't get everything stored in my head in one sitting lol
youre missing a few huge parts. the moonlight butterfly and the dead blacksmiths in ds1 can help you bridge the gaps. the butterfly watches over havels chamber, as well as the first faith ember, which you need before upgrading to occult. all 3 of those blacksmiths are long dead. (3rd being the one with large faith ember in tomb of giants.
seath did experiments, and those lizard men are closer to what seath wanted than what the maidens became.) ash lake is hard to explain havel, got any ideas from that?
One thing about the dragonslayer armor, the armor you fight isn't ornstein's, that's the set the nameless king wore back when he was a dragonslayer himself.
Source? Or is this a theory?
nope
aside from the fact that it looks nothing like the dragonslayer's armor, its face has a hawk design and, as the guy mentioned in this video you find ornstein's armor in another location?
nothing really.
Great vid!
Minor detail: I'm more inclined to believe that Havel was locked away in the tower by Ornstein, not by the Firstborn. My assumption, chronologically, would be that after his new alligeance was revealed the Firstborn was exiled from Anor Londo, Havel would then settle to follow him and make him pay for his betrayal, for his hatred for the dragons was great. He might have shared this plan with Ornstein himself, but regardless of how the First knight found it out he decided that it would be too foolhardy for Havel to face the Firstborn, for even stripped by his deific status he was still a remarkable foe (also,Ornstein loyalty towards the ex-God might have played a part on this decision). Hence the imprisonment "for his own good".
Side assumptions would regard the secret occult stash: Havel might have prepared it himself while brooding over his intent, possibly severing his speculated connection with the "ill-fated plot to destroy the very gods" mentioned in the Effigy Shield. IF the two events are not the same!
Valid theory, but I still believe Gwyn locked him instead of the Nameless King or Ornstein. To me it is weird for that dear friend of him to be someone else other than Gwyn if their former-relationship is specifically stated in the game (Havel's ring / Great Magic Barrier).
Lore wise, I think there are many videos proving Havel was locked by Gwyn, so I don't bother explaining here. But these videos can't disprove the theory that the dear friend of him is someone else either.
One thing that bothers me the most is where and when we can get the Havel's set. Why did he spawn next to the Stray Demon? Why did the corpse appear only after we killed the Havel's follower in Archdragon Peak?........The *Rock* Stray Demon and Havel's the *Rock*........Come on FromSoft there is no time for this kind of joke ._.""
Is it only me or is it weird that Gwyn locked Havel in a tower instead of a highly guarded prison?
Shunsui Kyoraku
You're not alone. I honestly feel that his location was a choice dictated more by gameplay experience than lore.
- "Yeah, you can have a shortcut, but here's a tough as nail miniboss guarding it. Have Fun!"
- "Thanks FROM"
*dies*
IMO you gotta keep a bit of suspensioon of disbelief looking at these things otherwise minor discrepancies will have your guts :D
For example: Havel brandishes a frikken Dragon tooth, you mean to tell me he couldn't breach through those wooden doors? Let's believe instead that, even in his hollowing, he accepted his exile and imprisonment :D
havel is already stated in lore to be a close friend of Gwyn so it's pretty clear who locked him up. that being Gwyn
I absolutely love your theories. they are thought out highly well and make perfect sense.
Thank you kindly friend!
You also fight Ornstein in Dark Souls 2. He seems corrupted by the abyss much like Artorias.
This was a really interesting video. I love the lore surrounding the Nameless King, and Ornstein has always been a personal favorite character of mine. Kinda wish I could stick with a Faith build long enough to create something similar.
Same, ive only played DS2 really, but every time i try and make a faith build i turn into a hex or bleed build lol
Reminder that the Dragonless Age can only be the third game, since the first two had the last surviving everlasting dragons (and their covenants). The third game does not have the dragon covenant, nor dragons (only drakes). This seem to lead that Ornstein hunted the last dragons (Old Dragonslayer in DSII) and went to the nameless king in III.
The theory of transformation is pretty good and fits well though. Especially in parallel to the butterflies transformation.
I do think the reference that Havel Himself dropped the tooth refers to the one you actually kill. Since otherwise it would be closer to "Originally wielded by the knigh Havel" rather than "Dropped by Havel himself". The latter implies the last time it was dropped, was by Havel.
That was great. Phenomenal. Standing ovation. WOW!!!! Thank you once again for taking your personal time and giving us these wonderfully, well researched and detailed videos.
I love to do it! Thanks a ton again for all the support! =D
I know I'm late to this party but since you brought up the description of Ornsteins armor I'd like to point out that of Smough's armor which reads.
"Grotesque armor associated with Smough, *the last knight to stand in defense of the ruined cathedral.*"
This does seem to lend a lot of credence to the theory that Ornstein had in fact, already departed Anor Londo by the time the Chosen undead arrived in the city. Which I until recently had dismissed as baseless speculation, and the wishful thinking of overhyped Ornstein fans.
Something I noticed that really sealed the "Faraam is Nameless King" thing for me is not only the description of the armor, but also the appearance. Take a close look at the etching on the top of the Faraam Knight Helmet
plot twist : a dragon became Ornstein
@7:20
I read that more as evidence for it being Havel himself, since he drops them on death they are left by him then, as the description says. The other evidence of this is the fact the chosen undead left Priscilla and Gywndolin alive shows a merciful nature, perhaps out of pity he unlocked the door for Havel to find unlocked later? Thus starting his quest that ends in archdragon peak
Oh, that's an awesome thought! Great insight friend!
...I just realized that the Nameless King's design is based off of the broken statues at the Warriors of Sunlight altars.
I'm blind
Now that you mention all of this fascinating evidence and speculation of your's, I think I'm going to adopt your theory. This is truly amazing for you to have dug all of this information up from both the games and your imagination. I think I really want to be content with believing your theory, thank you for letting it be known. I don't know you, but I know you're awesome.
Thank you so much friend, that means a lot! =D
Dude I wonder if the huge Dragon corpse you see on top of that mountain (right in front of the spot where you do the gesture to get the twinkling dragon head stone) is actually Ornstein, assuming your theory about him becoming a dragon is correct
the reason I say that is the description states that only one may hold that mantle and since the dragon is dead you can be the next person to become a dragon
It certainly could be! Great observation!
Amazing video! I love how you say "I believe X. Here's why" instead of "This is correct" without explanation.
when the nameless king took the strom's soul, he gained the ability of wind..not lightning..he already had that.
also, the dragonslayer armor,i believe it once belonged to the nameless king..i mean,if you look at it and Ornsteins,perhaps Ornstein took his Masters idea.but one thing im sure of it is that it doesnt belong to Ornstein himself.Another thing is this..the Ornstein you first in Dark souls(1) is the Legit Ornstein.not half his soul or an Illusion...once defeated you attain his soul.point blank.
I also believe the Sunlight Cov. was created by Solaire to honor someone..this someone to be his former master..the nameless king.Its sed he had two..I beleive Ornstein was one while Sunbro was the other.
and Havel,well, it's a bit of a pickle talking about him, my biggest questions or this...who locked him up? its clear he was a very close friend to Gwyn and fought side by side....but was it really gwyn? perhaps you are right and it was Firstborn..but look at who has the key to Havels cell..blacksmith thats dead,a blacksmith that once was a master of Divine weapondry.hmmm.Divine..hmm,wasnt Havel once a Bishop? who else was a Bishop? LLoyd.maybe allfather lloyd was the freind who lockd Havel.just a thought.
It is confirmed in ds3 that you didn't actually fight Ornstein, and that it is probably a piece of his soul, or an illusion conjured by Gwyndolin. You can't deny the facts
+Cyrus Butler You also kill Gwyndolin. It's sadly a bad retcon.
Where was it confirmed that you didn't fight Ornstein?
And Gwyndolin is a side boss, meaning that his death is a possible but not fix.
+Yadier Correderas It was confirmed on Smough's armor that he was the lone knight to stay and guard the princess.
Whether Gwydolin was a side boss or not doesn't excuse that the player character can kill him, which just corroborates that the lore is written a bit messy.
Bad retcon? I don't think so. World is convoluted and time sways in and out. That has been the core idea since Dark Souls 1, not some last minute thrown together garbage.
Dude your Videos are really awesome , i love your Theories you should be more known ^^
Thank you so much! =D
I thought that maybe the dragonslayer armour was a different one, because there may have been many.
Agreed, even Havel is called a dragonslayer so who's to say there weren't more, Gwyn, first born, Havel, oreinstein..... The list could go on
havel is mainly referenced as a bishop mainly of the way of the white not a dragon slayer
Technically, the Chosen Undead is another dragonslayer. After all, he/she does kill Seath (and Kalameet if you count the DLC)...
The chosen undead deserves the title yeah, but i see it more as an institution among the god's society
Keith Stone By that logic, the Bearer would be asworthy of the title as the Chosen Undead since he has also slain the last true dragon for a while, that being Sinh
I just commented on your "Dark souls is Canon" video, which was awesome! THis video should also include a subtitle saying that it goes into HAVEL'S lore with extreme depth. I've been looking for great Havel Lore and this is it, so thank you!!! I'm halfway through the video and I'm nerding out over here
Maybe Havel's right hand man sacrificed himself and was locked away and Havel hid his armor to hide among the people until people forgot about him got his armor and then went to hunt down the first born (who he resented for the betrayal)
Another thing that ties the Nameless King and the Lions of Forossa. If you look at the hair on the Nameless King's crown, you can see that it looks like a Lion's mane. That's probably where they get the apellative "lion" from
I believed your theory up until the soul absorption part, which got me thinking, what if it's the other way around? Maybe the Firstborn was actually the drake and Orenstein was the Nameless King, this would explain why when the Nameless King absorbed the drake that an explosion of lightning occurred, which as we all know is gift of the Firstborn. This could also be why the family of Gwyn destroyed all references to him as they could not stand having their sun become a dragon. Any thoughts? This probably has inconsistencies somewhere but I just thought that explosion of lightning seen would not occur if one was already born the heir of it.
Oh shit!!! Hoy may be right! Also the namless king have a move set quite close to the move set of ornestein
But NK already could use lightning not storm.
That's because the Nameless King was Ornstein's tutor.
The only flaw I see in ur theory is why would ornstein abandon his armor and weapon to wear the nameless Kings armor and inpersonate him and wen were and how did he get the nameless Kings equipment.
The reason it explodes into a storm is because it's a storm drake after all. It also explodes with lightning which supports the theory that it is infact Ornstein. After the absorbing, the nameless king is able to use storm attacks in the phase two of the fight.
Excellent work! Your theories are pretty out-there, but they make a lot of sense. That's what I look for in a Souls lore channel - unique ideas and perspectives. Keep it up, you're definitely one to watch!
Thanks so much. I agree with you I prefer those kinds of theories, especially when they start making sense when evidence is provided! I've got a pretty wild one coming soon too. Thanks again friend! =)
My take on this is that Firstborn wanted to ally with the dragons, realizing the horrors his father did to them in the war. Havel hates the dragons but Firstborn made him see the truth, at which point Havel decided to kill Gwyn with the Occult Club. However, Firstborn warned him it would be a suicide mission since Gwyn would prove much stronger, Havel didn't listen and Firstborn had no chance but to lock him up lest he ruins the Firstborn's plan of deposing his father and create a peaceful coexistence with Dragons. But he was exiled, Gwyn linked the Flame and all power left in Anor Londo was now Gwyndolin, who despite being mocked by his own father, decided to follow in his path no matter what. Ornstein, too, sought redemption for the atrocities he did in the war, so he sided with Firstborn and left Anor Londo long before the Chosen Undead gets there. I find it quite odd that in Dark Souls, Ornstein, known at the time as Captain of the four knights, was himself quite weak in comparison to Smough, a pretender, let alone Artorias, Hawkeye and Ciaran. Therefore, it was surely an illusion Gwyndolin made, for Super Ornstein is much stronger than regular Ornstein, whereas Super Smough kind of isn't that big of an improvement over his regular self.
Stormtrooper Elite uh... Gwyndolin was never mocked by Gwyn. Gwyn in all likelihood never even knew Gwyndolin *existed* .
Stormtrooper Elite but it says Havel *HATED* Seath, who was a dragon that was allied with Gwyn so that could be the reason he was locked
I don’t know, I spent a few hours making sure he became dead.
Minute 7:55 , i think the name you look for is Gwyn, Havel wanted to take Gwyn down because he found that the dragons weren't such a threat as Gwyn's said, Faaram new this to be truth since he befriend a dragon, when Havel and Faaram confronted the monarc he took them down with the help of Smough and Ornstein (pressumebly) , but why Ornstein's armor set was at dragon peak? And how he knew where to find it?
Not really sure since there's so little info
Another thing to enforce your theory that Ornstein is the Storm Drake is that no dragons known in history have ever breathed lightning or had lightning attributes. (sure there are the ones from DS1 that breathe lightning) that is a good analysis young one, but sadly those are wyverns and from the dictionary definition they are similar to, but are completely different to dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong this thought just popped into my head and I wanted to jot it down before I forget
But its a storm drake not dragon
Kriston Keaton They are just smaller than dragons and have four legs that's the only difference definition-wise
Here is from the drake sword item description:
Drakes are
seen as undeveloped imitators of the dragons,
but they are likely their distant kin.
There is a difference.. Also drakes aren't sentient while dragons are
What makes dragons sentient lol
Excellent video man! Really smart thinking in this and I'm keen to see what else you got comin :)
They need to finish Ornstein's story in the next DLC. He is one of the biggest loose ends that has persisted over the entire trilogy.
Ahahahahahahaha
man I love the lore for this game and the fact that it makes people come up with some many theories each with explanations and information supporting or dismissing one aspect or another.
So why roll in the game play if you have no hit box
Nice speculations & awesome video man!
Good video but you overlooked a MAJOR flaw in your theory and its the Sacred oath. There is a good chance this is a mis-translation. the original text might have meant "his faithful first knight and brave dragonslayer" and the translators who aren't as intimately familiar with the lore as we are probably misread it and thought the first knight and brave dragonslayer where two different individuals. So its talking about Gywn, his FirstBorn and the Dragonslayer who served them both, Ornstein.
The Japanese version says:
太陽の長子と、その筆頭騎士
そして竜狩りの剣士の物語は
最も勇壮な竜狩り譚であるという
Which translates to:
And the firstborn of the sun , the largest knight
And the dragon hunting swordsman of the story is
That is the most heroic dragon hunting Tan
It only mentions 2 people which is the FirstBorn and Ornstein.
This is nothing less than amazing. Since I just got the Plat on DS Remastered, Im going through all the lore again.
Dark Souls lore is just in..frkn..sane!! I could listen to this all day long.. Brilliant stuff
MEAN COMMENT!
Your theories about ornstein are so good, so deep. Thinking of him about the first born's dragon seems crazy at first, but the evidences you give us make me genuinely believe that all you explained is right. Well done realy !
wait.. it's OrnstIEn? I always pronounced it as OrnsTEIn (a bit like in "wine")
:(
Bloody Fromsoft and their hard-to-pronounce names!
no you are right, but most people get it wrong cause they dont know better^^
Nito Raki hah I knew it.
thanks!
Stein is the German word for stone :) I don't know how to describe it, but something like "shtine" should be pretty accurate I guess :)
Critical Ravi I know, I'm Austrian.
That's why I always pronounced it like it'd be a German word
10:18 - 10:51
Since we don't know the time that he leaves, we can assume that he could have left from the Blue Cathedral in Dark Souls 2? This can also further prove why Ornstein in DS1 is an illusion, or fraction of a soul. But what I don't understand is why Ornstein switched to Hexes, and why his armor is gold once again. And since Old Dragonslayer is an optional boss, is his death canon?
I do agree that Ornstein must've become a dragon at some point, but him being the Stormdrake isn't getting through my thick skull. Sorry
Awesome video though
Another great video. I actually had to stop the video and yell out an "Oh my god!" when you started getting into why you believe that Ornstein is actually the Storm Drake, because as soon as you started talking about it, I instantly saw where you were going and it hit me like a brick to the back of the head. I'm still kicking myself for not noticing that connection before. Well, granted, I did notice the similarity between what happens between Ornstein and Smough in the first Dark Souls, but the connection between that fight and this one didn't dawn on me until this video.
Also, your thoughts on how Velka could have been the one to strip the First Born of his godly status is interesting, though I have to wonder if it was actually Gwyndolin who was responsible for that. After all, Gwyndolin is pretty much the one one who has control over Anor Londo after Gwyn throws himself to the fire; Gwynevere has already left, and Velka is nowhere to be seen. Not only that, but anything having to do with Velka has already been locked away in the Painted World. And considering how ruthless Gwyndolin is shown to be at times, it wouldn't surprise me if they were the one who cast the First Born out. I could also see them secretly mourning that decision though; remember that in the first game, Gwyndolin is residing in Gwyn's tomb, which is not only a monument to him, but also has the miricle left behind by the First Born, as a final momento. This loss of family could also be what made Gwyndolin later reach out to Yorshka, as she is pretty much the only one left by this point. Anyway, just my own musings.
Haha, that's awesome! Thanks so much for the support friend! That is an interesting thought about Gwyndolin stripping the firstborn of his deific status. I was just assuming that the firstborn could have just kicked his ass, lol. But I guess Gwyndolin did have his Darkmoon Blades, so that could make sense! Thanks for sharing!
For some reason reading what you wrote kinda make me think and like he sed specualtion but what about pontiff. From what i gathered on pontiff this dude is corrupted and he already had something to do with two poeple of the royal family bloodline kill Gwyndolin and the Dancer. He took over anor londo and also rouse to power in this new version of Emlyum Loyce or Irithyl. I believe he had something to do with all that since his ties with the the royal family goes deep maybe he was at one point on of the clerics of the white influtrating the family. but also another person who could of taken his status could of been All father loyd since we really dont get the chance to meet him in this game either but there has not been no conformation that loyd is dead or not and he is the one who build Gwyn to where he got pure specualtion since there more hinting pontiff been more guilty since his action can be seen all over the ruin cathederal of Anor Londo
I definitely agree that Pontiff Sulyvahn had a hand in a lot of the misery going on in Dark Souls 3, though I honestly don't think he had much to do with the Firstborn being cast out, as I feel that happened before his time. Sulyvahn was a member of the Way of White (and/or possibly a former Darkmoon Blade?? been wondering about that), who seemed to have had his rise to power when Aldridch rose to prominence, and that seems to have happened centuries after the events of the first Dark Souls. Also, even if Sulyvan was around during the events of the first game, there's no mention of him, or of any corruption going on with the Way of White, so I think ultimately he wasn't a major player until ages later. I can see why you would think he was though; this guy is one major schemer, and caused quite a lot of mayhem in his rise to power.
+Swordsage yeah i went on a whim there but that why i also put Father Loyd also could have strip the first born
+The Ashen Hollow you play on pc right?
Liked it but Ho-Oh is better.
Haha, fair enough! ;)
I noticed Nameless King's arm shaking before he has to stab the Storm Drake... that makes me really sad ;-;
neat theory. I hate to say this but git gud (cringy) turn off god mode dude.
He likely recorded this for the video, it would kinda ruin the video if the background footage was him dying
it all sounds pretty good except for one major part. Nameless King had lightning before absorbing his friend, and the dragon had none.
Wait if Nameless King is Gwyns son, who the fuck is Solaire?
just a lunatic
But.... praise the sun...
just a grossly incandescent bro
Solaire is our sun
A knight. A wanderer. A dreamer. A friend. Eventually a Lord of Cinder if you help him throughout his quest
If not already pointed out:
I think the lightning is very essential for confirming the Stormdrake to be Ornstein. Lightning is THE weakness of the ancient dragons, the force to strip them from their scales. Dragons didn't have anything against each other, or at least not known, and even if, there wouldn't be an exemplary with a power specialised in killing dragons. At least that's what I think.
oh, cmon, all these speculations are crap just because creators of the DS series didn't bother with timelines to match. basicaly, they are spitting in our faces with the timelines:
we kill ornstein in ds1
then again we kill ornstein in ds2
and now in ds3 we hear a story about he doesn't give a fuck being killed twice and becoming a dragon.
okay then.
also, dragonslayer armour fight is weird. if it is empty armor, why the fuck it bleeds and can be staggered?
+Indifferent One
You're pretty incorrect according to most people. But you're allowed to have your Debbie Downer opinion on everything. People here just don't want to see it. ;)
The theory that Ornstein was an illusion had a lot of merit even when Dark Souls 1 was newly released. And the one in Dark Souls 2 could have been a common dragonslayer dressing up as his child hero for all we know.
Though i definitely agree that this theory is preposterous. Ornstein fought dragons for years, and watched many of his friends get burned alive which would just increase his hatred of dragons, but now suddenly he wishes to become the very thing he kills.. It's a lot more likely that Ornstein came to kill Gwyn's traitor son along with Havel for his betrayal of Gwyn and themselves.
"We knights fought valiantly, but for every one of them, we lost three score of our own.
Exhilaration, pride, hatred, rage… The dragons teased out our dearest emotions.
…Thou will understand, one day."
The Ashen Hollow Hey there! This may sound stupid and the timing of this is quite late but... In Dark Souls 1 we can choose to kill either Smough or Ornstein first. We get the soul of the one we kill first so.. perhaps it is canon that the chosen undead killed "Ornstein" first, and then proceeded with Smough. That way the chosen undead does not get the soul of Ornstein and it gives more wiggle-room (so to speak) for the illusiornstein theory.
Mr33500 saying its impissible for Ornstein to turn because he was a dragonslayer is like saying the First Born couldnt turn because he was a dragon slayer as well. they ALL fought the dragons at one point or another. It said that ornstein went to the FB in a 'dragonless' age. To me, this teases out motive. It seemed that ornstein was disillusioned with his purpose in life after dragons. All three other knights were dead or lost. The queen he stayed to protect left. And the dragons he once hunted were ancient history. It teases that ornstein felt he had no purpose, and thus sought out his master for answers. That seems, to me, the most logical version of the story. If he did it for vengeance, he sure took his sweet ass time to decide to get it, huh? And lets not for a second fool ourselves into thinking Ornstein even dreamed he could take the FB. First of all FB was his master, and second Havel wouldnt even *attempt* it without an occult weapon. FB was not to be fucked with my dude.
Indifferent One Orenstein was an illusion in dark souls 1 and in dark souls 2 he isn't the real one either
I also have an interesting (but probably flawed) theory about Ornstein and his (canon or not) appearance in Dark souls 2.
if we find a club imbued with Occult in Dark Souls 1, because Havel went after Gwyn's Firstborn, maybe that's why we find Ornstein using Dark magic in Dark Souls 2. I can't quite explain why he's being guarded by dragons and dragonriders ( i guess this would be the big flaw in my theory ) but maybe Ornstein ended up there in his journey to catch the Firstborn.
Now in DS3 he found The Nameless King and probably lost to him, and because they used to be close, Nameless King stripped Ornstein of his darkness and armour and offered him another chance to fight alongside his old friend as a dragon.
But that's just a theory. :D
TL;DR: No he didn't.
That's definitely not how that works! XD
Thespc54 I completely agree with you it is a little curious when we see ornstein's fingers move and smough only acquired lightning unlike ornstein but who knows maybe we will get more answers in the dlc maybe we will even re encounter ornstein in the dlc that is just something that I think would be awesome
Can you try sipping some water before recording? Your throat puckers more than the small asian man between my knees
The fuck.......
a thing alot of people seem to miss, is the description of the yellow stoneplate ring.
it says that its the ring for knights who became dragons, and we also know that the king oceros was transformed into one.
my theory however is that, the firstborn, had a child with a dragon(priscilla), and was banished for it, thats when he created the dragon covenant.
as for the havel we face, the armor description talk about warriors who followed havel, so its safe to assume that one isnt him.
Absolutely amazing perspective and video. Definitely subscribing. I'm glad I ran across this video. Keep up the amazing content.
This is perhaps my favorite theory video I've seen. Very well done!
Haven't played dark souls 3 but the dragon lore you gave was really interesting. Epically the part where you talked about the snake men, they must have been people like the nameless king or ornate in who wanted to become dragons but probably not worthy
Also something Vaati pointed out, not on his channel, but on one of Criken's Edwad Emberpants episodes, ironically enough, that you can see The Nameless Kings spear hand subtly shaking right before he kills and absorbs the Storm Drake, further pointing out the mourning of his lost friend. Doesn't really further prove if it's Ornstein or not, but still pretty interesting.
a little note: mimics are commonly carrying dark or abyss aligned items, this is because of the nature of the abyss and all things derived there of.
we can see this nature in the dark serpent pyromancy's description as essentially free will, or more accurately they have a will of their own that you must contend with, dominate, and enslave to use without becoming navlann.
this nature drives dark items to make chests into mimics as a function of their will dominating the inanimate object.
Dude, I don't know how you only have 2.7k subs. I like your lore vids more than Vaati's. You aren't afraid to talk about a lot more of the "what if" scenarios that he ignores. You may not have the same production quality but you put out more vids that cover way more lore. Keep it up man.
Thank you for the compliment dude! I set out with the intentions of doing "what ifs' just because that is what Dark Souls has always meant to me. The lore videos that cover things that are specifically canon are still awesome! I just like stretching the imagination. Thanks for watching friend! =)
I was wondering about the 'Lightning Storm' description in which it says that the Nameless King 'tamed a Stormdrake'. Doesn't exactly sound like they were best buds from the land before time or whatever. Sounds more like the Stormdrake is just a big dragon that the Nameless King looked at and decided that he wanted it to be his noble steed.
Apart from that, this video was awesome! Really like the whole 'three musketeers' thing and I had never really read the Ring of the First Born so that all tying together was cool.
Great way of narrating. Great editing. Great theories! Subscribed
I love you video and its very gripping, but I want to point out you using the dark souls 1 character select music hit me right is the feels
Thank you! That is my favorite Dark Souls soundtrack of all time! Oh sweet nostalgia!
:)
There's also serpent men in the lower point of the Duke's Archives in DS1, they activate the tentacle monster trap. Maybe their placement there could just be Seath's experimenting or that being in proximity with one of the major dragons in the game hints at their imperfection of the dragon form.
Seathe experimenting with tentacle monsters, I think I might be able to form a theory regarding him and his hentai fantasies.
oh god
just an extra thought built on your very end bit about velka, if velka is gwyn's wife and the kings mother, it would make sense for her to show him the kindness of having his betrayal merely reduced in history to "a foolish mistake" possibly even the loss of the annals was her attempt to protect him from the stain of betrayal.
Perhaps that is why the thunder stone plate ring is just outside of the boss arena where you find the Ornstein set. The ring says it was given to those who would become dragons after all...
His weapon in DS1 is a Glaive which is in itself a sword blade mounted on a spear haft. His broken statue is wielding it at the altar of Sunlight. He also kind of looks like the Nameless King but less crazy.