This is the best discussion on oils I have seen on youtube. It ended too early, oil brand recommendations for classic cars would be great. A part 2 of this discussion is required. Very informative thanks.
It ended too early!! I hope that there's a part 2 (deux) (dos) II I watch some of this guy's videos and it's great to hear him speak about Brit cars. I remember in the 2000's when the brit car guys were bitching about bad camshafts from Moss and other vendors. The metal was the culprit back then, IIRC. Cams lasting only months, etc...is there a part 2?
There are several factors to consider for the required ZDDP level in any given engine . Valve spring pressure, Cam to lifter contact patch, Cam profile, engine (intended) rpm, Valve train inertia, and others. Many, many engines have survived to very high mileages with oils containing ZDDP levels lower than 1100 ppm (see Irv Gordon and his multi million mile Volvo). Yes, specialized oils may be the answer, but for some of us it is not viable to have to mail order these special lubricants. Excellent UOA's have been recorded with oil's such as Rotella T6 and even Mobil 1 European formulation. I appreciate what Lake says and follow his videos, but as always, nothing is quite Black and White.
That's fair enough, but remember that the multi-million-mile Volvo probably had the vast majority of its oil changes done before the last decade. I'd be curious to see UOA results before and after--or I wonder if anyone's done back-to-back testing using a classic car motor oil followed by an off-the-shelf oil. All that said, you make a great point about the valve spring pressures, which are a big part of the equation. Flipping sides again... Rotella T6 and other diesel oils may have higher ZDDP content, but as noted in the videos it's a different type of ZDDP and may not be active at the pressures generated in a gas engine. I do still think the specialty oils may be the best bet, and would note that you generally don't have to mail order the lubricants. At least in the US, Valvoline VR1 is available at any Auto Zone (and most other parts stores), and you can find Castrol Classic through Walmart. They're widely available, inexpensive, and according to Lake suitable for classics. In any case, I'm sure we'll all agree that regular maintenance and driving the cars is much more important than which brand of oil you choose.
As always very interesting when Lake Speed Jr. (The Motor Oil Geek YT channel) talks about oil and your interviewing was very interesting - but even with my headphones on the sound quality wasn't great, the mic was picking up some echo and some noisy machinery running which bleed over a lot of the discussion.
Yep! It did it's job too. Technically, cars had catalytic converters in the 80s and 90s too, and the oil still had sufficient ZDDP that it wasn't a problem for classics. It wasn't until detergents were increased that it became a problem. It's all about balance.
Lake is saying that ZDDP levels in the 1100 -1400 ppm range as suitable. Lucas Hot Rod 20w50 is said to be 2100 ppm. This 'seems' too high and likely in a range where corrosion could be an issue 😮
Aybe as a standalone factor. I think the general level for corrosion is a little higher anyway (I could be wrong), but even more important than the zddp level is how it compares to other levels, such as detergents. Remember it's a balancing act. But either way it'd be interesting to see a wear comparison....
I have a lot of experience with British cars including jaguar. i did my apprentice ship at a BMC dealer. Lakes description in general is excellent. My major comment is that someone needs to do an expose on all motor oil brands claiming to have an advanced ZDP package and in particular are suitable for pre catalytic convertor engines. The information needs to present the oil only on its merits in other words technical data sheets and performance review's It must be entirely with out bias and any product or manufacturer that has claims of high ZDP I have followed Lake for some time since I happen to think its great to see the general interest in lubricants. Because you cant pour oil into a glass cup and see any structural difference with the human eye it leaves it open to interipation. The actual chemistry is complicated enough that the average person gets lost in the composition Lake does a good job of explaining the lubricant features. However as scientist you must divulge any bias or sponsorship from any manufacturer After you have done your testing on all of the products that you ask for or were submitted you can promote the winner. This should be done on an honest basis If a particular brand is only available in California it should be noted. All marketing claims unless backed by the data sheets should be shown as pitch points This must be an unbiased scientifically backed list There has been some incredible oil sales success stories based on inferior product but hyped to the public "because it works" Think STP,Lucas, Slick 50 etc. Because of the dollars of revenue oil sales can derive for a company the testing must be done on an unbiased technical basis. If the product submitted passes the test then they can make any claim . However if it does not that also should be shown.Motor oil is a huge market and not all producers are reputable . but if you are putting the oil in your 3.8l Jaguar you deserve to get the best oil for the job.More importantly you desrve to get the protection you think your paying for from the oil
I've considered such testing. In theory, I should fill my Austin-Healey with, say, VR1. Then drive a certain number of miles, change the oil, and send out a sample for evaluation. I could then try a different oil and repeat. The issue is that it's difficult to design such an experiment based around only 1 car, and it complicates things that the oil would be used over the span of multiple months--which means multiple seasons, different driving conditions, etc. Basically it's hard to define a control group. That's likely why it hasn't been done, as doing it properly would be fairly expensive. Maybe I can use the channel and make the survey results a bit more broad. If we have 100 cars using various oils, and they all send in for sampling... we could end up with something that's statistically more significant. Obviously some cars are going to be in different mechanical shape, or would be driven more or less frequently, etc etc, but if the distribution is large enough those things may be averaged out and wouldn't affect the end results since they'd be spread over a larger sample size.
No, that's not correct. The latest spec of oil is not good for classic cars. You're looking for an oil that's made for classic cars, such as Valvoline VR1, Castrol Classic, or Lucas Hot-Rod & Classic. What he was saying is that those oils are all based on modern oils--just with a different additive package that makes them okay for classics. If you don't have the classic car additive package, the oil is not recommended.
I've heard this recently. Definitely interesting to know. It may also contribute to why oils are starting to come out that are both gasoline and diesel oils. Less of a difference in the additive package, so why market 2 different ones
If I'm being honest, I was slightly star struck and didn't think he'd have time for the project. Glad that it worked out he was in the area, and pleased to report he's a truly nice guy who has time for those in the hobby. For my own cars I've gone from off-the-shelf oils, to using an additive that I combined with a 5-gallon pail of good oil (I go through a lot of oil, so that was gone in a year), to now using a dedicated classic car oil. If that's what the science says to do, that's what my LBCs shall receive! Spoiler alert if it wasn't in the 1st video: VR1 and Castrol Classic are just fine. I use Lucas Classic and Hotrod Oil, but that's a bit more money unless you're like me and buy in bulk.
We might in one of the other parts of this 3 part video. MT90 or MT85 is what I use in all of my classics. Perfectly suitable for an overdrive, and in fact better than many 30w oils without additives.
@midwestmotoring I had this discussion a awhile back with Richard Widman (Widman International), he did not know of an oil formulation on the market that was 'ideally' suited for Laycock O/D's + gearboxes, but did comment on an industrial lubricant that is used primarily for earthmoving equipment. Unfortunately, it is only available in 50 gallon drums. I have had good luck with MTL's in my O/D box for over 25 years. I think MT90 may be a bit too high viscosity for our use (especially in Northern latitudes) MT85 might be better, and even Pennzoil Synchromesh (but that could be too light. I am surprised specialist vendors such as Penrite have not produced and marketed a specific product.
My wife said the same thing. I saw him being interviewed at the PRI trade show in Indiana last year, and geeked out that I knew who it was. My wife, who was also there, was like "Who?"
That's fair, but he was talking about earlier generations. A lot of the pre war stuff did use babbitt bearings, especially the old bikes. The TR6 engine is a descendent of the 2.0L GT6 engine, which came from the Vanguard, which came from etc etc. If you trace it back, they would have poured bearings.
Not completely it seems, or you wouldn't have watched the video. ;) The truth is that in a lot of cars it matters less. But at the same time, VR1 and Castrol Classic are often cheaper than the oil you might put in your daily driver... so why not use it and get the more suitable oil?
Too bad. It may sound complicated, but with a little education from sites and videos such as this, you CAN make informed choices that will make a difference. Sorry, the days are over where you just buy a can of Castrol GTX
This is the best discussion on oils I have seen on youtube. It ended too early, oil brand recommendations for classic cars would be great. A part 2 of this discussion is required. Very informative thanks.
Don't worry, part 2 is coming, followed by part 3....
It ended too early!! I hope that there's a part 2 (deux) (dos) II I watch some of this guy's videos and it's great to hear him speak about Brit cars. I remember in the 2000's when the brit car guys were bitching about bad camshafts from Moss and other vendors. The metal was the culprit back then, IIRC. Cams lasting only months, etc...is there a part 2?
There's actually a part 2 AND a part 3. We went into gearbox oils, GL4 vs GL5, and even fuel additives. Stay tuned, and share with your friends!
There are several factors to consider for the required ZDDP level in any given engine . Valve spring pressure, Cam to lifter contact patch, Cam profile, engine (intended) rpm, Valve train inertia, and others. Many, many engines have survived to very high mileages with oils containing ZDDP levels lower than 1100 ppm (see Irv Gordon and his multi million mile Volvo). Yes, specialized oils may be the answer, but for some of us it is not viable to have to mail order these special lubricants. Excellent UOA's have been recorded with oil's such as Rotella T6 and even Mobil 1 European formulation. I appreciate what Lake says and follow his videos, but as always, nothing is quite Black and White.
That's fair enough, but remember that the multi-million-mile Volvo probably had the vast majority of its oil changes done before the last decade. I'd be curious to see UOA results before and after--or I wonder if anyone's done back-to-back testing using a classic car motor oil followed by an off-the-shelf oil. All that said, you make a great point about the valve spring pressures, which are a big part of the equation. Flipping sides again... Rotella T6 and other diesel oils may have higher ZDDP content, but as noted in the videos it's a different type of ZDDP and may not be active at the pressures generated in a gas engine. I do still think the specialty oils may be the best bet, and would note that you generally don't have to mail order the lubricants. At least in the US, Valvoline VR1 is available at any Auto Zone (and most other parts stores), and you can find Castrol Classic through Walmart. They're widely available, inexpensive, and according to Lake suitable for classics. In any case, I'm sure we'll all agree that regular maintenance and driving the cars is much more important than which brand of oil you choose.
As always very interesting when Lake Speed Jr. (The Motor Oil Geek YT channel) talks about oil and your interviewing was very interesting - but even with my headphones on the sound quality wasn't great, the mic was picking up some echo and some noisy machinery running which bleed over a lot of the discussion.
I know. The furnace was going since it was a cold morning that day. Apologies for that. I'll be investing in some better microphones in the future.
EXCELLENT INFORMATION Lake!
Glad it was helpful!
The catalytic convertor which was brought on sole to solve the emission requirements was the primary promoter to the reduction in ZDDp
Yep! It did it's job too. Technically, cars had catalytic converters in the 80s and 90s too, and the oil still had sufficient ZDDP that it wasn't a problem for classics. It wasn't until detergents were increased that it became a problem. It's all about balance.
Lake is saying that ZDDP levels in the 1100 -1400 ppm range as suitable. Lucas Hot Rod 20w50 is said to be 2100 ppm. This 'seems' too high and likely in a range where corrosion could be an issue 😮
Aybe as a standalone factor. I think the general level for corrosion is a little higher anyway (I could be wrong), but even more important than the zddp level is how it compares to other levels, such as detergents. Remember it's a balancing act. But either way it'd be interesting to see a wear comparison....
I have a lot of experience with British cars including jaguar. i did my apprentice ship at a BMC dealer. Lakes description in general is excellent. My major comment is that someone needs to do an expose on all motor oil brands claiming to have an advanced ZDP package and in particular are suitable for pre catalytic convertor engines. The information needs to present the oil only on its merits in other words technical data sheets and performance review's It must be entirely with out bias and any product or manufacturer that has claims of high ZDP I have followed Lake for some time since I happen to think its great to see the general interest in lubricants. Because you cant pour oil into a glass cup and see any structural difference with the human eye it leaves it open to interipation. The actual chemistry is complicated enough that the average person gets lost in the composition Lake does a good job of explaining the lubricant features. However as scientist you must divulge any bias or sponsorship from any manufacturer After you have done your testing on all of the products that you ask for or were submitted you can promote the winner. This should be done on an honest basis If a particular brand is only available in California it should be noted. All marketing claims unless backed by the data sheets should be shown as pitch points This must be an unbiased scientifically backed list There has been some incredible oil sales success stories based on inferior product but hyped to the public "because it works" Think STP,Lucas, Slick 50 etc. Because of the dollars of revenue oil sales can derive for a company the testing must be done on an unbiased technical basis. If the product submitted passes the test then they can make any claim . However if it does not that also should be shown.Motor oil is a huge market and not all producers are reputable . but if you are putting the oil in your 3.8l Jaguar you deserve to get the best oil for the job.More importantly you desrve to get the protection you think your paying for from the oil
I've considered such testing. In theory, I should fill my Austin-Healey with, say, VR1. Then drive a certain number of miles, change the oil, and send out a sample for evaluation. I could then try a different oil and repeat. The issue is that it's difficult to design such an experiment based around only 1 car, and it complicates things that the oil would be used over the span of multiple months--which means multiple seasons, different driving conditions, etc. Basically it's hard to define a control group. That's likely why it hasn't been done, as doing it properly would be fairly expensive.
Maybe I can use the channel and make the survey results a bit more broad. If we have 100 cars using various oils, and they all send in for sampling... we could end up with something that's statistically more significant. Obviously some cars are going to be in different mechanical shape, or would be driven more or less frequently, etc etc, but if the distribution is large enough those things may be averaged out and wouldn't affect the end results since they'd be spread over a larger sample size.
Great discussion! So the latest spec of oil is good for antique and older cars? (With higher zinc levels)
No, that's not correct. The latest spec of oil is not good for classic cars. You're looking for an oil that's made for classic cars, such as Valvoline VR1, Castrol Classic, or Lucas Hot-Rod & Classic. What he was saying is that those oils are all based on modern oils--just with a different additive package that makes them okay for classics. If you don't have the classic car additive package, the oil is not recommended.
@@midwestmotoring thanks
a TGDI and GDI engine produces more soot than a modern day diesel. that's why API SP was created to protect timing chains from soot wear
I've heard this recently. Definitely interesting to know. It may also contribute to why oils are starting to come out that are both gasoline and diesel oils. Less of a difference in the additive package, so why market 2 different ones
Please go into the chemistry and generation data of ZDDP!!! But i love this. All i have been reading about for 18 months.
Also it's ironic I am subscribed to both of your channels independently. I really love this collaboration. Good job gents!!!
If I'm being honest, I was slightly star struck and didn't think he'd have time for the project. Glad that it worked out he was in the area, and pleased to report he's a truly nice guy who has time for those in the hobby. For my own cars I've gone from off-the-shelf oils, to using an additive that I combined with a 5-gallon pail of good oil (I go through a lot of oil, so that was gone in a year), to now using a dedicated classic car oil. If that's what the science says to do, that's what my LBCs shall receive! Spoiler alert if it wasn't in the 1st video: VR1 and Castrol Classic are just fine. I use Lucas Classic and Hotrod Oil, but that's a bit more money unless you're like me and buy in bulk.
Trying to figure out who to collaborate with next. It was fun getting to know someone else in the car world.
Sent question on flywheel Thx Henry
THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I hope I was able to answer your question!
I would have liked Lake to comment on the suitability of Manual Transmission Lubes in O/D gearboxes
We might in one of the other parts of this 3 part video. MT90 or MT85 is what I use in all of my classics. Perfectly suitable for an overdrive, and in fact better than many 30w oils without additives.
@midwestmotoring I had this discussion a awhile back with Richard Widman (Widman International), he did not know of an oil formulation on the market that was 'ideally' suited for Laycock O/D's + gearboxes, but did comment on an industrial lubricant that is used primarily for earthmoving equipment. Unfortunately, it is only available in 50 gallon drums. I have had good luck with MTL's in my O/D box for over 25 years. I think MT90 may be a bit too high viscosity for our use (especially in Northern latitudes) MT85 might be better, and even Pennzoil Synchromesh (but that could be too light. I am surprised specialist vendors such as Penrite have not produced and marketed a specific product.
I feel like I should be awarded a degree in chemistry. I am much smarter for having watched this!
@@bobdefalco the rabbit hole is deep. I'm definitely still learning
@@midwestmotoring We're all learning together, thanks to your channel!
Hey... where'd you go?
I've been here... just busy with the day job and family!
@@midwestmotoring
I mean the video seemed to end before the interview was over. I'd love to see more!
Jenny said she never heard of Lake.
My wife said the same thing. I saw him being interviewed at the PRI trade show in Indiana last year, and geeked out that I knew who it was. My wife, who was also there, was like "Who?"
those British cars were so great that they don't make them anymore
Just like those Chryslers. They must have been so bad that they're owned by Italians now.
that Triumph does not have babbit bearings...... such as the Model A Fords had. and no oil filter in cars that old.
That's fair, but he was talking about earlier generations. A lot of the pre war stuff did use babbitt bearings, especially the old bikes. The TR6 engine is a descendent of the 2.0L GT6 engine, which came from the Vanguard, which came from etc etc. If you trace it back, they would have poured bearings.
Bla-bla-bla... I've given up on discovering which motor oil to use and why, in my flat tappet gasoline engines.
Not completely it seems, or you wouldn't have watched the video. ;) The truth is that in a lot of cars it matters less. But at the same time, VR1 and Castrol Classic are often cheaper than the oil you might put in your daily driver... so why not use it and get the more suitable oil?
Too bad. It may sound complicated, but with a little education from sites and videos such as this, you CAN make informed choices that will make a difference. Sorry, the days are over where you just buy a can of Castrol GTX
I watched for 21 minutes and no answers.
Part 2 might help, but what questions are you hoping to answer? Maybe I can just post it here.