Fake Quotes and Mormon Myths
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- See past Sunday Musings: SundayMusings.org
What if a prophetic quote you have been sharing for years turns out to be falsely attributed? Worse, what if the only source of the quote was an avowed enemy of the Church?
Journal of Mormon History article about this letter: archive.org/de...
This is exactly why its so important for us to have a personal testimony based in our own understanding and belief in Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, and the gospel. In these last days you will absolutely have everything stacked against your beliefs. Including infighting and discord within the memebrship, just like in the scriptures and the time of restoration. Dont let the world or any of mankind choose your beliefs for you. Be of firm mind and devote yourself to Christ no matter what.
Thanks Connor for being capable of talking about complex topics like this with an eye towards seeking truth and serving God.
Great job keep this up. We need to know truth of things, the good, the bad and ugly.
ABSOLUTELY !!!
We just got back from Nauvoo, and I heard the happiness letter quoted three times, all attributed to Joseph Smith. It’s incredible that we just keep perpetuating these lies. Why can’t our historians come clean that the “happiness letter” is not from Joseph Smith? Anti and ex Mormons love this letter and it would be fairly easy to set the record straight.
Connor links to an article where a BYU professor of history does exactly that.
@@WalterReade But it needs to get to the missionaries in Nauvoo.
@@Sagart999 Thats my point, an obscure BYU article doesn’t cut it. Let’s stop quoting the letter in conference and in Nauvoo. The JSP also presents this letter as if it’s from Joseph. How about an article on the church website refuting this letter, as it came from Bennett.
@@Commenter2121let’s say they do that…attribute the letter to Bennett. Now you’ve got to clean up the mess of subsequent prophets, seers, and revelators quoting it over and over.
The Church professes the fallibility of leaders but gives members no latitude to live in accordance with that imperfection. Step out of line under sincere personal license and you can lose your recommend and more. Speak up and you can face discipline.
Until the Church learns to distinguish between constructive and malicious criticism, or between conscientious objection and rebellion, I believe we’ll continue to see no specific action or commentary from the Church as to its own mistakes.
Starting to wonder if the persecution of the (real) saints are when you get ex'd because God wants to see we are really fighting for truth and freedom. I've never understood "the happiness letter" until Connor goes through it here. If Gen Conference is supposed to be like scripture, I just realized it is absolutely not. Wow, I'm floored. I love my Savior and want to defend, HIS word. I don't want his words to be muted, destroyed, or altered. This makes me so sad that the leaders haven't done the deep dive into truth and just quote pieces of obscure history. Apostles that should have been witnesses of Christ. @@aBrewster29
"Truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come” (D&C 93:24).
I very much appreciate your research and musings. Thank you!
Excellent thank you! We have many modern John C. Bennett’s today.
This also brings into question as to the validity of our manuals…😢
Let’s assume that Bennett was the source of the Happiness Letter. What, then, does it mean that subsequent generations of prophets, seers, and revelators have quoted this letter as authoritative? If they were wrong about that, what does that say about the potential for other errant teachings/sources? What is the vehicle for rooting out elements of the natural man from our theology?
How about gross blessings/net blessings on tithing? How about the universal applicability of certain gender norms? How about the idea that members are blessed for their obedience, even if the prophet is wrong? How about the idea that it’s wrong to criticize the Church even if the criticism is true?
Thank you for this, and other musings. I don't have time in this stage of life to research source materials. I rely on people to tell the truth. But this was such a good reminder not to take anything at face value.
You are not researching yourself and that is alarming. The brother of Nancy Rigdon talks about Nancy confronting Joseph about the letter. Joseph admits it was him and says he was just testing Nancy's virtue. Don't trust this guy either. Research yourself!!
@@coffeedrinkingisnotasin6049 I do agree. I like Connor and think he is doing good. However we all naturally are biased to what we want to believe. No one wants to believe Joseph was a sexual predator.
Well, he was not a predator. Also, he said/admitted no such thing. @@Telavian
@@JakobPGrau The jury is out on that.
When everyone is biased one way or another, that's why it's essential to pray for confirmation about important things, if not everything. Research is vital nowadays. If you don't have the time, you're allowing Satan to feed you what he wants even thru the directions of others who you may trust. Just like Connor showed. Even our leaders "assumed" without research. All this occurs because people chose not to spend the time to research. Let us not perpetuate the problem. Time is valuable, but so is the pursuit of truth, lest we be swayed into accepting myths and inaccurate documents and whatever.
Amazing! Thanks for all of your musings and research.
Forsure something to think about. Thank you for your musings. They are so enlightening. They often take up my doubts and concerns, legitimize them, and at the same time restore my faith. I am so grateful for this. It is far better than giving me strategies on hardening my heart.
I understand that John Bennett admitted to being an Illuminatus in his personal writings. Which makes sense considering his efforts to subvert the Church from within.
I was most familiar with the first and last quotes... and used them often... it's so deceptive that the church and the historians still attribute these to Joseph, when he denied being the author in his lifetime.
Sidney Rigdon claimed Joseph Smith denied it. Not quite the same.
BRM’s Mormon Doctrine could be a gold mine for false teachings analysis.
The spirit is so good. Every time I've heard these types of quotes I have always known something was wrong but couldn't put a finger on how. I'm grateful to know those feelings are what I should be listening to and are valid, as well as making sure my testimony is strong on what the spirit does testify is true. Thank you for sharing.
What is the purpose of this musing?
Is the Happiness Letter legitimately written by Joseph and used by dozens of church leaders to justify any and all of their personal whims on the members?
Or is the letter a falsehood STILL used by dozens of church leaders to justify any and all of their whims? And then we need to ask why they didn’t exercise any discernment or inspiration or even common sense to question the source of the letter.
Great episode. It’s always refreshing when a member of the church isn’t afraid to question things. I must admit, I’m a little bummed that Joseph Smith didn’t say the thing about relying too much on church leaders. I believe in that message, and I feel it carries more weight with people when they think it comes from Joseph Smith. I have to admit, though, that if we need Joseph to have said it in order to believe it, then we are relying too much on him. It’s kind of ironic.
If you want believe Joseph said what you wish he said, just believe it and look for and make up evidence for what you wish. Reality and truth don't matter. Follow Connor's example and allow motivated reasoning to run your life. He has made a career out of convincing others of his paranoid beliefs. Connor seems to believe that everyone is out to get him, so, a little lying for the greater good is just what is needed.
@@sleepingrhino says you... I'll come to my own conclusions thanks, than some naysayer such as you
The purpose of this video is that even tho some quotes may have 'some truth' in its substance, they are not authentic. Thus, we are easily fooled and manipulated when we 'DONT RESEARCH AND PRAY FOR CONFIRMATION" about what we read and hear. We dont use discernment adequately enough. Myths have blinded us from who J.S. actually taught and did, in some cases.
Ya gotta DIG DEEP into mormon history for truth Real deep. If you've been a mormon for any significant time at all, you have already been fooled into believing all kinds of falsehoods.
This was great. Why do we continue to use these? Thats the troubling part. Thought scholars were often consulted when writing talks that include church history. I never could square how God could be straight Justice yet liberal in his views.
Nancy Rigdon's brother, John W. Rigdon, corroborates Joseph Smith's proposal of polygamy to her and the subsequent fallout in the Rigdon household. Rigdon's story corroborates (but does not prove) Bennett's depiction of events.
Are you skeptical of just the letter or also of the alleged proposal itself?
I don't remember hearing these quotes. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, they just didn't make an impression. But I do remember growing up with stories about just how extra special everyone coming to earth in the latter days is. The story that in the spirit world, when people find out when we were on earth, they will all fall to their knees in awe. Or the story about someone giving a talk in the presence of a general authority and saying we were all captains and generals in the war in heaven. Supposedly this general authority corrected him by saying "there were no captains." Those are the myths I grew up with.
The GAs always say how extra special the current generation is. It’s been going on literally for decades.
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out after we die that we were all here on earth because we were the 1/3 with Lucifer, but God wanted to see if we really were with him or God so that's why the veil to cover our remembrance? He wanted to really give us every opportunity. Maybe that's why this earth is so messed up because there are so many that like "force". Frightening thought huh.
You assert that JCB was likely genuine in his belief at first. Highly unlikely as he abandoned a wife and child in Ohio to pursue this opportunity for notoriety among the Saints.
He was a liar, whether he once believed and no longer did, claiming he never did is a lie. If he really was a double agent all that time, he's still a liar.
Joseph Smith , false prophet.
@@inChristalone1960prove it!
@@inChristalone1960was Joseph false or was the adversary hard at work? The Book of Mormon is FULL of Hebraisms. Lehi's home has been found near Jerusalem. He was a wealthy potter. (No I won't provide the link. Do your own research if you are REALLY interested I find that people who won't, don't want the truth).I believe Joseph was a prophet.There is no way anyone could have fabricated what no one knew then. I don't believe he was a polygamist. He said he wasn't, Emma said he wasn't and there aren't people running around with his DNA.
Dang . I liked those quotes. But your debunking rings true to me .
Pres Nelson said the restoration wasn't complete. Maybe they should begin by purging church history and restoring the truth! I never believe the brethren unless I can find the doctrine in the Bible now. (This started with the "preventative" that was safe and effective). I've been studying Judaism and I'm learning so much. I can see where they got off the rails with the rabbinical teachings and I can see where we are going in that direction too. I knew when the "God is liberal" quote went around that it was wrong and would be used to bolster false doctrine. 2003. I admire Elder Holland but it was like chalk on a chalkboard. Pres Nelson was correct about one thing - we have better be close to and listen to the Spirit.
Have you come to understand we do not keep the Sabbath on the 7th day? I have been studying a lot of old testament writings and boy we have missed the mark. Thanks Constantine.
You are right on. Nelson so far has been the most correct about only ONE thing that he has ever said : listen to the spirit for truth, because Nelson himself is just another one of the many voices out in the world who can very possibly lead you astray if you do not do your own homework.
Yeah, Nelson IS right about one thing: "Ya better have the spirit with you, because I, Nelson, may also along with everyone else, lead you astray. SO BE CAREFUL! ".
Whenever you get a footnote that you cannot easily follow, or research I believe you need to question the provenance to see if it is
true. Especially if it contradicts scripture. Here is an example found on Wikipedia.
"Zion is also, according to Joseph Smith, the entirety of the Americas. Smith stated that "the whole of America is Zion itself from north to south". Zion is a metaphor for a unified society of Latter Day Saints, metaphorically gathered as members of the Church of Christ."
This quote is often used to infer we are establishing Zion and that we are prepared for the last days by gathering converts to our Churches. Our Utopia or Church now extends Zion throughout the world via Stakes.
This is not what Joseph Smith taught. If you read Doctrine and Covenants 101 we lost Zion in Jackson County Missouri. We've never reclaimed the City of Zion also called the New Jerusalem in the Book of Mormon. The pure in heart must return. Read D&C 101:17-21. Until the Temple is built there and the pure in heart are allowed to return we really aren't Stakes of Zion because we have abandoned the whole belief in it.
Excellent!! Thank you.
Around 19:45, you asked, "Why are we believing this guy?" referring to John Bennett and questioning why the church has embraced his statements. Have you ever considered that the leaders, who profess to receive inspiration and revelation from God, might not actually receive such revelations? Could it be that this has been a deception since the death of Joseph?
Do you know how revelation works? Seriously, not trying to be a jerk. We are only given revelation when the Lord wants to give it to us. And then sometimes we need to ask for it. I’ve received revelation on things that, if I hadn’t asked I would never have known. I suspect the Lord gives the. Very little revelation. If it doesn’t affect the running of the church then he lets the, noodle through it on their own. And they never ask something he most likely won’t give them an answer they never asked for.
Thanks for research Connor. Hannah Stoddard’s stuff is excellent on debunking similar false narratives.
Has Hannah finally come to the understanding yet that Joseph didn't commit polygamy?
How can we tell which quotes are legitimate, Or not? Do we know who the editor is that wrote the quote --following the prophet without question, is "slavery." I use that all the time. I believe the principles in that quote is truthful. We are in so much trouble because people will not listen to anything but what the prophet says. I have been fighting for Liberty and truth since 1966. I am 82 years old. Is there a book on which quotes are valid? I quote a lot of Joseph Smith after reading 8 books on this life. I am now reading "Rough Stone Rolling. I do do know that, as in D&C chapter One, Joseph Smith tried to get the saints to get their own revelation and to be less dependent on others for our knowledge. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet.
I agree with you. It is hard because some of the quote have very nice messages.
I do think that many time the people were well meaning in creating the quotes. Often times they would combine statements together to make a more palatable version.
The only real way to determine if it was genuine is to see it in a source document, however those can and have been faked also. Follow God and do what you think is correct.
Rough stone rolling paints Joseph in a false way. It’s not factual in many respects. I would take that one with a few pounds of salt.
I guess we just remain neutral, not believing nor unbelieving and just wait for the millenium for J.S. to confirm or deny all of this first hand, in person cuz ... who can we trust, besides the Lord? That's why I pray about everything I hear and read. I don't need someone to confirm other than God, if it's his will to do so. Otherwise, I remain neutral. When forced to make a decision & without H.G to tell me, I go with my gut based on thorough research. I see no better method.
I would be very careful with Rough Stone Rolling. The absolute best thing to be looking for is where did they get their quotes. You'll have to look into every source, so why not just go straight to the Joseph Smith Papers and start at volume 1. On the Internet you can do this for free and make the print larger. However, you may not have to go through everything once you find a contradictory statement. Take it to God and that's where He gifts you the Holy Spirit of truth. The feeling that comes with knowledge. I know Joseph was a prophet too, just not the kind that the church has put up on him. He was never a polygamist. Bless you in your search.
Why don't our prophet seers and revelators mention this?
better question: are these guys really "prophets,seers,revelators" , other than in name and title only ? ya gotta wonder.
I always learn a lot from your videos!!)
If the General Authorities are quoting it repeatedly, then I figure that it must be right, even if Joseph Smith Jr didn't say it. Just like the quote falsely attributed to Alexis de Toqueville about how "America is great because America is good."
Really?? Even if they attribute it to a man who didn't say it AND denied being the author? Yikes...
I know you mean well, but you do not worship Jesus Christ. You worship the church as an institution. I see your comments on Connor's videos. It's exhausting the extent to which you will go to avoid seeing the obvious truth staring you in the face. Please just stop. Stop worship "the brethren." Stop worshiping the church. They haven't seen Jesus. They don't have a weekly "board meeting," where Jesus comes and gives them marching orders for the week. There really is no need to just assume that "if general authorities are quoting it repeatedly, well, heck, flippity flip! shucky darn! It must be truth!"
Just because a quotation is misattributed doesn't innately make it wrong. I've quoted plenty of things over the years that I discovered were misattributed to Founding Fathers or to others. But they were nevertheless excellent expressions of correct principles.
“Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God” J S
This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.
- Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith approved John C. Bennett's brothel house near the Temple & the Nauvoo House Mansion. As Mayor Joe had to approve city layout & businesses. Joe made John C. Bennett 1st councilor, General, head of Nauvoo hosital, Head of Nauvoo College. Nancy's sister believed the letter. Brigham Young & most prophets & apostles since then believed the letter.
I agree with your position on this letter. Lynn Hilton Wilson stated in one of her videos that the quote in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith about Zacharias, the father of John the baptist, was killed because he wouldn't tell the location of John the baptist, being tied to the statement of Jesus to the Pharasies about them being wicked and Killing Zacharias, was not from Joseph Smith, but was a prevailing Christian "myth" that was circulating at the time and made it into one of the church newspapers and then got attributed to Joseph Smith. She showed that the Zacharias Jesus was referring to was not the same one and was just a confusion from I believe Matthew about a different Old Testament Prophet by the same name. It's a lesser known quote but one she claims is not from Joseph Smith, but in TPJS.
Thanks for sharing!! I appreciate your efforts!
I would love a video about building Zion. Something that was Joseph's main mission that we have abandoned as a people. I would love to build Zion today. live with people who have the same standards and a pursuit for Godly things.
I’ve been duped.
My first encounter with Connor’s musings was through his excellent episode on the ‘Convid’ c r I m e and his derision for the
‘d e p o p j a b’,
and the absurd ‘face diaper’ which I fully agreed with
(s p a c I n g for the c e n s o r s btw).
But after watching a number of his episodes, it has become clear to me, that he is misleading people in a masterful manner.
I’m unsure of his motives, whether he believes he is doing good or if his intention is to sow doubt and confusion, to erode faith, but either way his content is dangerous to those who don’t have a substantially solid foundation in church doctrine and history.
As a former Libertarian myself, I see the subtle disinformation that this seemingly freedom-supporting political philosophy engenders, and the ‘surface’ credibility of his analysis of the historical documents he undermines, with little credible regard for full context, can lead people who don’t have a solid framework to evaluate from, to be lead astray.
Watch him if you choose, but do so with a very wary eye!
So you believe it is better spiritually and the lord prefers that we believe lies than truth?
Do you think Joseph was lying when he denied being the author of the "happiness letter"?
@@Kristy_not_KristineWhere does Joseph deny he was the author? Rigdon claims Joseph made that claim. It's third hand.
It's interesting that Connor accept's Gerrit Dirkmaat's (@21:10) conclusion when it aligns with Connor's belief, but dismisses him when he doesn't: "he believes and buys into the narrative like most BYU church historians do that Joseph was a polygamist", with the implication that a BYU employee has to toe the line, without addressing the fact that nearly all historians "buy into the narrative", LDS or not.
@@kissinkatebarlow clearly not, where did you get that idea?
Your vids are showing soooo many holes in Mormon culture and what we believe historically.
Let’s suppose JCB confronts Joseph on rumors about polygamy. Joseph explains using the quotes in question. Bennett uses those quotes to practice his spiritual wifery and he uses them in his bogus letter. Happiness is the design of our existence. Whatever God commands is right. You do not know that Joseph is not the source.
Interesting that you trot out Dirkmat for attacking Bennett, while you ignore both his discussion about historians not just accepting the Happiness Letter or the odd way it ended up in the history of the church.
I haven’t heard of any of these quotes… I need to read more it appears.
Lost in translation: thou shall not MURDER!
I always enjoy the folklore story of the angel with the flaming sword. That's right out of Game of Thrones mythology.
That flaming sword never made sense to me either🤣🤣. It's honestly an embarrassing story to call doctrine when its tone is, as you said, folklore
What are the best arguments for the letter being valid?
Testimonies from people like George Robinson, the son-in-law of Sydney and Sydney himself. We also have many other testimonies from people in 1842-1844 that something was going on. It all follows a pattern.
@@Telavian What testimony? and what pattern?
None. Joseph denied being the author.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine Source on that? What did he say exactly?
@@pigetstuck The testimonies are not one sided of course. Numerous people spoke against Joseph. For instance Ebenezer Robinson, who didn't follow Brigham, spoke against Joseph.
Thank you for doing and presenting this research. I definitely won't be ascribing these quotes to Joseph anymore. As important as the truth of authorship is, we must never set aside the gift of discernment to help us discover and confirm truth. We should "try" words we know are Joseph's against what the scriptures teach about discernment just as much as we should try the words of any other man.
Why is it EVERYWHERE Joseph Smith & early Saints lived they were accussed of bad behavior and crimes? In LDS teachings were they innocent of every accusation?
Yes always innocent. Historically though they would steal from and lie to the "gentiles". They were likely counterfeiting and using the Nauvoo militia to escape from charges.
The whole thing was a mess, but yes members do see the leaders as all being innocent.
19:53 Is that where "Lying for the Lord" comes from? I've only heard that expression from TBMs.
I believe that came from the Temple Lot case, where the saints rationalized it was okay to lie to “gentiles” in that court case to prove they were Joseph’s rightful succession. However it goes against the scriptures. See 2 Nephi 26: 32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie… that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish. 33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men
@@BbulL2027 Book of Mormon also says Polygamy is wrong but they did it anyway 🤣
@@BbulL2027 Thank you! When people talk about us not being ready to receive the understanding of scripture, say it's esoteric, or dismiss your question with "Think Celestial", I think of how it's supposed to be plain, and thought of this verse, but could only find the LdS plain and precious truths bit. I was a convert for a few years, definitely don't know the scriptures well myself. Numo here.
paul h dunn was a liar for the Lord. he was defrocked back in the '80's for being a phony baseballer and war hero. tsk tsk.
How do you explain Abraham calling his wife Sarah his sister in Egypt?
The more missing pieces of church history that we fit into place. And the more faulty pieces we throw out. The less miraculous and impressive it all becomes. Very disappointing.
I disagree. I find it moremore relatable.
What do you mean the less miraculous etc? I think Connor’s point is the exact opposite.
I mean that church history stories and quotes have been fabricated or embellished a great deal. The fact that church leaders are capable of repeating something that is inaccurate, because it sounds inspiring or faith promoting, casts doubt on everything else they teach.
There's no need for a miracle to be lurking behind every tree and under every rock for the restoration to be true. By small & simple means shall great things be brought to pass.
other misquotes: 2000 stripling warriors. stake presidents and bishops etc repeatedly build their sermons topics around the brave warriors, citing general authority even- drives me nuts. its a huge difference between soldier sons or battle-proven killing machine warriors.
"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years."
“I will give you a key that will never rust - if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.”
"I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives."
"I now deliver it as a prophecy that before ten years shall roll round, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their respects to this Society- they shall come with their millions and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the poor."
- Joseph Smith - Relief society meeting - April 28th, 1842
Ten years from that point the RS would be disbanded under Brigham Young
@@TelavianJoseph Smith If Joseph had lived, perhaps this would have been true.
@@MommaCrissa We will never know. However the promise wasn't conditional.
Connor, this is your only video I've seen, but I'm disappointed to hear you don't believe Joseph practiced polygamy. I've read part of an ancestor's journal where she mentions having attended her sister's marriage to him. This came from one of the many journals on the BYU website.
Every piece of evidence can go either way. However I do think if you see Joseph in the context of everything else happening in Nauvoo. Then it would make sense that polygamy would be part of it also.
I guess the 98% of professional historians who believe the evidence shows that JS practiced polygamy are just plain wrong.
Hate to break it to you. Your ancestor lied.
@@JakobPGrau Is it your position that nearly all historians, LDS or otherwise, are wrong on this topic?
@@JakobPGrau 😆😆😆
Study the history more. There was a fallout between Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon around the time Bennett claimed this letter was written. If this letter wasn't the cause of that then I don't know what was. After Joseph's death, Sidney claimed in his newly founded church newspaper that Joseph was a fallen prophet because of his polygamy. Also I really doubt Bennett had the skill to write this letter.
I found the Our Heavenly Father quote in citation index in Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. The more complete quote. Liberals use the cut quote but I don't see the full quote attributed to anyone other than JS? Help please
Do you know whether the quotes in Words of Joseph Smith can be questioned as to the source?
Hmmm.. perhaps I’m missing something here Conner. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Let’s for a moment stipulate that Joseph was not involved in polygamy as you have been asserting in recent videos. That JCB and others fooled and tricked the Saints. Then obviously Brigham and the boys were totally duped and so are the brethren today, who still practice the concept of polygamy in the next life when they are sealed to their second wife, much as President Nelson and current leaders. By taking an apologetic stance to protect Joseph, you are defacto condemning the current church and its discernment and priesthood. You can’t have it both ways. This musing confirms that ex-Mormons made the right decision to leave the current Corporate and corrupt church. Why are you still an active member?? Please enlighten me!
Our Lord has commanded us who believe D and C to study history, but most members prefer not to and have ZERO understanding of the present day. If they, for one, understood the history of movies, they would realize movies are satanic, and they might go further and turn off the television, rock and roll, et cetera, and leave their mind controlled fantasyland and finally seek the truth and begin to help build up Zion. True prophets know the truth and love the truth.
Absolutely. Why should anyone believe the liar, John Bennett? Particularly those who claim to believe Joseph was a prophet.
Another false tradition is that D&C 132 came from Josepg Smith. :)
Amen!
The flesh of men/women will make mistakes. It’s great when you or someone else digs a little deeper when it comes to things of this nature.
But how we come to the truth and discern correctly if the prophet and apostles can’t even do it?
Maybe they spend more time in "meetings" than studying. Also, would they be willing to study something they truly don't understand and if they got an answer that was completely contrary to "church history" would they go against it? Around the conference table of the 12 and first presidency, they didn't even have congruency of the Holy Ghost in decisions with all, until Spencer W. Kimball with blacks in the priesthood was restored (back). Brigham took it way off course. Is it a gradual process because people are so stubborn and pigheaded? I think so. Men's ways instead of God's. I also think the "stone cut from the mountain without hands" is actually a backwards term. IMO it shows it was done without the hands of God. When the veil is rent, I believe God's literal hands will bring back a restoration of all things, including "the stumbling blocks" we are all dealing with in trying to reconcile truth.
I must not have been listening, never heard these quotes.
Aww but always time to learn, right?
To many I know are believing all these marriages and leaving the church.
Beam me up Scotty, Capt Kirk never said that
Bennett was a member of the First Presidency, Mayor of Nauvoo, and leader of the Nauvoo legion. What does this say about the other leaders?
Nothing, because three is no such thing as guilt by association alone.
@@rodandnathalie You missed my point.
In our premortal life, Lucifer was once a great leader as well. Benedict Arnold was once a great leader in the American Revolution.
@@TelavianYes, you have a point, now keep it under your hat.
Judas...picked by Christ himself
What is known of Bennet's character? Why is it assumed he a bad man? Evidence?
I am not defending Bennett or Smith. I am seeking confirmation of the claims against each man.
I’d go through the chapters in Saints Volume I that include John Bennett. That’s a place to start.
@@Waterboyofsuperman - thank you
He was an adulteter, had a wife and child he abandoned etc... there's a lot of info on this evil man if you really want to learn for yourself
@@Kristy_not_Kristine - yes. All I am interested in is truth & accuracy. Can you recommend a reliable source I could access to learn more? Tyia
Fantastic!..great content bro 👌
JS stood up and said “they say I have eight wives but I can only find one.” This was a lie. Should we not believe anything he says? JS lied to Emma which made Emma the 23 rd polygamist wife.
Please point to contemporary evidence showing Joseph married (and slept with) other women.
@@cboyack can’t seem to cut and paste the link but the most informative analysis of this topic is on Mormon discussions ply list titled “History and timeline of Mormon polygamy / lds discussions”. About 6 videos with loads of historical analysis. Also look at JS papers project. Odd you add “and slept with”. You know about him getting caught in the barn, before priesthood temple authority was restored, messing around with the nanny. Or the journal account of Emma chasing a pregnant polygamous wife into the street. She had a miscarriage. There ate accounts of an abortion doctor as well.
Watch the 6 in-depth analysis of polygamy and get back to me.
Joseph did NOT lie. It was those who came after age those seeking to gratify their lusts in secret that lied.
@@Kristy_not_Kristine ok. 👍
I hope Connor reads the comments under this video and others he's made, and the type of people he's attracting. In a way, its very reminiscent of Julie Hanks and the fact her biggest supporters are those who have left the Church or who are on their way out. I see the same thing here. The only difference is while Hank's followers tend to be more left-leaning, the ones here appear to be more right-leaning. This should give the video maker pause.
Not an argument. Either his points are valid or they are not. Truth transcends whatever people choose to do with it.
@JakobPGrau Funny how what so many following him see as "the truth" end up leading them away from the truth. That's the underlying point.
And why is that? Perhaps it is you that should pause and consider that you've been led astray by false traditions and the philosophies of men
@jaredshipp9207 perhaps that's exactly the point. What people think is the truth is a lie.
"This can't be true, because I don't like it, and I don't like the people who believe it's true. Hmmph!"
I've watched several of your videos. You do an amazing job of gathering information and presenting it, but you would be so much more powerful if you could pray and know the truthfulness of the things you are trying to teach.
What makes you think he isn't??
@@Kristy_not_Kristine I second this. @whitesmw: I don't understand the underlying message in your question. Do you get the impression he doesn't know the truthfulness of the things he's talking about in his musings?
that’s what i always suggested “the problem with citations and quote…”, it is best to always try to find ORIGINAL CONTENT! find the SOURCE. quote the source- God himself. How can you? you wonder we should consider where this leaves us with cannon scriptures if authenticity is such as we may not entirely be able to trust it in any scriptural presentation. The only sure truth is the one we each are receiving confirmed by cautiously through and by the Holy Ghost and God Himself.
Who would even know about josephs proposal to nancy let alone make up a letter , ? Did he propose to her or not? Regardless of a letter! All the explanations are so sketchy and incomplete.give us the members the resources to find out for ourselves.
So George W. Robinson is the son-in-law of Sydney Rigdon. He writes about the reaction Nancy had.
"Nancy showed the prophet's letter to her father and told him of the incident at the Hyde residence. Rigdon demanded an audience with Smith. George W. Robinson reported that when Smith came to Rigdon's home, the enraged father asked for an explanation. The prophet 'attempted to deny it at first,' Robinson said, 'and face her down with the lie; but she told the facts with so much earnestness, and the fact of a letter being present, which he had caused to be written to her on the same subject, the day after the attempt made on her virtue,' that ultimately 'he could not withstand the testimony; he then and there acknowledged that every word of Miss Rigdon's testimony was true' . . . . Much later, John Rigdon elaborated that 'Nancy was one of those excitable women and she went into the room and said, "Joseph Smith, you are telling that which is not true. You did make such a proposition to me and you know it [crossed out in the original]: 'The woman who was there said to Nancy, "Are you not afraid to call the Lord's anointed a cursed liar?" "No," she replied, "I am not for he does lie and he knows it"]' . . . .
"Robinson wrote that Smith, after acknowledging the incident, claimed he had propositioned Nancy because he 'wished to ascertain whether she was virtuous or not, and took that course to learn the facts!' . . . But the Rigdon family would not accept such an explanation. They were persuaded that the rumors about the prophet's polygamy doctrine had been confirmed. The issue continued to be a serious source of contention between the two church leaders until Smith's death in 1844."
Sorry to burst your bubble but Joseph Smith Jr was responsible for that letter.
I think Sydney had a lot to say about Joseph, but out of respect he didn't. Joseph was totally different from Kirtland to Nauvoo.
@@Telavian ya, I think the power went to his head.
Be wary of citing George Robinson as an authoritative source. From FAIR:
“Unsurprisingly for such a contested tale, other versions of this visit exist. The most immediate is George Robinson's, who claimed to be present. We recall that he provided Nancy's version of Joseph's proposal, discussed above. His account, however, was not yet written. In evaluating it, we must remember that his statement was not made until July 27-a month after the family meeting, and more than three months after Joseph's discussion with Nancy. During that time, despite all the disclosures made about Bennett's actions and character, Robinson continued to associate with him as a friend. In fact, after having arranged to be paid for his anti-Mormon letters to the ‘‘Sangamo Journal’’, Bennett returned to the Nauvoo home of none other than George W. Robinson.[12] Bennett arrived the day prior to Joseph's family meeting; we cannot ignore, then, the possibility that Robinson's first-person account was distorted or doctored because of his relationship with Bennett, who was immediately on-hand to counter anything Joseph told them.
“Robinson's attitude and memory would also have been affected by the charges and rumours swirling around Joseph as Bennett published his exposés, since his letter was written after the publication of four of Bennett's letters.[13]
“Our reading of Joseph's meeting with Sidney's family will, then, be greatly influenced by the decisions we make about even this single source. Too many authors, anxious to smear Joseph or tell an exciting tale, have used Robinson (a first hand source, holy grail of historiography) incautiously, without informing their readers of the evidentiary pitfalls which await the unwary. Robinson should not be discarded, but nor should he receive our unbounded trust.”
@@cboyack It always boils down to a he said, she said situation. I really wish we had the original letter. That would be far better than anything else.
@@cboyack You quoted this: "Robinson should not be discarded, but nor should he receive our unbounded trust".
I believe the same goes for Bennett and his "History of the Saints". Yes we shouldn't trust it, but we also shouldn't discount it just because it came from Bennett.
All here, say from people who's been booted out the Church..
Not an argument.
4:36 Did you say Sangamo? It's Sangamon, or at least is now.
I found Sangamo, just hadn't heard of it.
W
Sounds like John C Bennett was the real Prophet, as John knew the future. John claimed it was the present, however John was lying then he told the future over and over again.
Dirkmat “buys into the narrative, as most BYU historians do, that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or whatever”. Connor, you are becoming a bad joke obsessing over this issue. You are way over-invested in a fringe theory, and yet acting as if the trained historians are the cooks. This obsession is dealing a blow to your credibility more broadly. I feel like I’m watching a tragic accident play out in slow motion. Someone who you trust needs to intervene
Joseph wasn't a polygamist. If that makes you angry then you're the one who needs help. Every single account we have of Joseph's so called polygamy was created decades after his death for manipulative purposes like the temple lot case where even the judge found him innocent.
The writings we have from the "women" weren't written by the actual women. Most of them were written by William Clayton. But all were written by men. The handwritten testimonies from the women were in the same print so that's embarrassing. Oaks himself has spoken of fraudulent documents from the early saints. The church published loads of Joseph Smith papers so we could see for ourselves what the true history is. Armchair critics seems to love to correct without lifting a finger to do the work themselves
I’m not angry. I love Connor! I just hate to see this diversion taint his otherwise excellent work. Joseph and Brigham were both essential in their callings. Neither would be known today without the other. They loved the Lord, and were loyal to each other, were both united in His work of restoring His church and establishing Zion. The practice of plural marriage is not the norm, but for a generation it was instrumental in establishing His people-to “raise up seed” if you will. Those who, because of discomfort with pioneer-era polygamy, insist on discrediting the prophets of that era will eventually lose their place in this magnificent work and deny themselves the rich blessings of the covenant people. I wish you the best with your effort to forensically establish your theories, but keep inquiring of the Lord and listening to the Holy Spirit. God bless you!
So joseph proved 3 times he in not a translator. He lied about his ability to translate. Joseph is a bad source for truth just like Bennett. So why don't you treat them both as a bad source? My guess is because you have an agenda just like Bennett.
Here, say is what it is!
@@shaunjeff45 when both Mormons and non Mormons agree he couldn't translate I wouldn't call that hear say. Both sides agree he attempted to translated the Book of Abraham.
@@coffeedrinkingisnotasin6049 He didn't even "translate" the Book of Abraham as we would say. We have most of the original document and it has nothing to do with Abraham.
I don't think the document is required, but it certainly wasn't a translation.
@@Telavian According to the heading of the Book of Abraham: "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
Not written by Abraham and Joseph was a story teller. It was made up by his imagination. He probably shouldn't call things a translation if that is not what he is doing. But that was his claim. Don't try back tracking when he is caught in yet another lie.
@@coffeedrinkingisnotasin6049 The word "translation" means converting from one form to another. I am not backtracking on anything.
I was simply saying we use the word translation differently today.