The fact that Armor is checked before resistances is awful at any time that armor can be used to mitigate elemental damage. The node on the tree that allows 25% of armor to be used to mitigate fire damage might as well not even exist with the current calculations :(
Same with less on roll, it is just a terrible keystone at this point, but if applied pre-armour, could be useful on the class it is clearly designed to work with.
I was almost tempted to use that unique chest piece that essentially gives transcendence but better and try to get as much armor as possible through evasion on rings and iron reflex, max armor gloves boots and helmet etc, but this order of operations absolutely kills this kind of build
8:30 The way stun works in poe2 is criminal. There's no way to avoid stun like in poe1, even hits that deal 0 dmg can stun you as stun acts like a dark souls 'build up' meter. The fact that monsters gain a higher stun threshold value after being stunned (preventing chain perma-stuns) while players don't is complete bonkers. Its feels completely terrible playing with 75% block and getting perma stunlocked by 10 white bug mobs that are incapable of dealing damage to you.
Great video! Love when you make videos like this that we can refer back to when we are making builds to understand how effective our defense and offensive layers will be.
Although I cannot confirm it, I believe that damage multipliers on martial weapons (such as "increased physical damage") are calculated before damage conversion in "Damage Calculation, Step 2". The reason for this is small test that I made a while ago in which a character with Avatar of Fire + remaining conversion from skill (normalized total 100%) had the DPS tool tip increased significantly when the weapon had the "increased physical damage" modifier. Skill dealt no non-fire damage. Note: I cannot recall if I took added flat damage into account, so the test could be contaminated, but I believe the character had no other sources of damage multipliers anywhere.
Increased Physical Damage on martial weapons is a local Damage modifier, it's not applied globally to your character. This increase is used to scale the base Physical Damage and any local flat added Physical Damage on the weapon, therefore resulting in a higher base Damage(for attacks)
@dreamcore_gg Do we know the interaction with skills which consume ailments? Mostly thinking about Shockchain arrow, does the damage from shockchain arrow still benefit from the shock, or does it "eat" the shock before the damage calculations? Would be interesting to know about this!
Thank you for the content. Would have helped me for my Titan (my first build) with conversion and increased damage. I thought it would be the same like in PoE1, until I noticed it after long struggle. Good Job
This video should be mandatory viewing for GGG onboarding. Also, Gain #% Elemental damage as extra is NOT converted by item bonuses. For example, using original sin should convert all of my elemental damage to chaos, but gaining #% damage as extra cold damage is still freezing and shattering enemies even though all my damage is presumably chaos.
Yeah they're applied simultaneously in conversion step 2. Gain as extra is always applied in step 2 even if it's from the skill gem itself, so the extra damage can never be converted.
Great video! I may have misunderstood this part, but would the cloak of flame count as 'preventing' physical damage, for the sake of interacting with the Made to Last notable? Thanks
I tried "made to last" on my svalinn warbringer with turtle charm allocated. The recovery only shows up in the character sheet when the damage bypasses my block chance.
bit confused on secondary conversion and damage as extra applied simultaneously. I'm using OS and damage as extra is actually shown in the tooltip and not converted to chaos making me think it's a step after all conversions.
They're applied at the same time in step 2 - any damage from 'gained as extra' mods cannot be further converted because of this. Even if the 'gained as extra' mod is part of a skill or support gem, it's still applied in step 2.
Would you be willing to do a follow up video on ailments? Specifically poison and bleed. I had only just managed to figure out the new ailment system when i realized that poison and bleed still break a lot of the rules for the other ones. Specifically, in this video, you comment that ailments are applied/calculated before mitigation , which makes sense, because 'the ailment is not affected by anything that modifiers the damage the target takes from the hit " However, then you list shock in the next step. And if you read the poe2 glossary, it explicitly says "modifiers that affect the enemy's ability to mitigate damage (such as shock) can affect the damage the enemy takes from poison" Please don't take this as criticism for your explanation, I'm just very confused as to how this works
No criticism, I understand the confusion because GGG's tooltip description is poorly worded. See example below As you mention, the ailment magnitude is not affected by any modifiers that change how much damage a target takes from a hit. Magnitude is essentially how much damage the ailment deals, let's take the example of ignite - base magnitude is 20% of the fire damage of a hit per second. The target has no resistances, which you modify with flammability to -30% fire resistance. The magnitude of the ignite is still 20% of the fire hit per second, but the target is now taking 30% more damage from the fire damage over time dealt by the ignite, so they're effectively taking 26% of the fire hit damage per second. Shock increases the damage the enemy takes from all sources. Let's take a base shock of 20%. The magnitude of the ignite is still 20% of the fire hit per second, but the target is effectively taking 31.2% of the fire hit per second. So to clarify, modifiers on the target won't improve the magnitude of inflicted ailment, but they'll improve the damage a target takes from an ailment - hope that's helpful, but yes I will indeed be doing an ailments video soon!
@dreamcore_gg thank you so much It at least explains the confusion 'magnitude' vs actual damage dealt. Looking forward to the episode! I just realized Does that mean 10% poison magnitude would make the poison based off 30% of the hit, not 20? I figured 10% would be 20% * 1.1 = functionally 22%
Wait, does this mean that damage can be converted twice, as long as they take place in separate steps? Let’s suppose there were a physical to fire support gem. If I used that with the gloves, would I end up with physical to cold, effectively? Or does the second step only apply to damage that wasn’t converted in the first step?
Yes it can, for example Perfect Strike combined with Blueflame Bracers - on a Perfect Strike, the skill will convert 80% of physical damage to fire damage, then Blueflame converts 100% of fire damage to cold damage
Some people are claiming there is still stun buildup on players even with hits below the stun threshold. Is there any confirmation or testing that proves one over the other?
So what are the differences compared to PoE? Most importantly I'd say is the order in which armour is applied to elemental damage. "Heatproofing; 25% of Armour also applies to Fire Damage taken from Hits" applies before resistance, this is different from PoE. So in PoE it's much better, because there the big hit is reduced first by resistance to a small hit, then the armour is more effective. In PoE2 25% of the terrible armour damage reduction is applied first on the big hit, making it a terrible notable.
Quick question about MoM and Bleed. It's to my knowledge that bleed requires the hit to be inflicted on life in order to proc the bleed. However, suppose you have Mind over Matter. How does that interact with bleed in the case that your ES pool is gone when you take a physical hit that can inflicts bleeding?
@ One other question I just thought of, hope I'm not a bother, but is the damage conversion ordering the same as in Poe 1, that is Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos?
@@dreamcore_gg Do they have a way to prevent infinite conversion loops (I believe that was the reason they had the ordering in PoE 1) within the way the calculations are fundamentally done?
There is so much wrong with this when it comes to armour... They need to either buff armour 3x more than they did in the new patch or move the conversion and the less taken to happen before armour is applied.
i think the armour fix has several components to it - change order of calculations, increase effectiveness, and rework the skill tree to have actual life increase nodes. Last one can alternatively be replaced by making strength give more hp, but that opens a whole different can of worms. Changing the order of operations is crucial because otherwise Heatproofing is worthless - if witches and sorcs can be 100% immune to chaos damage with some point investment, it's only fair for warrior to be practically immune to fire
I believe the 'gain rage when hit by an enemy' modifier is currently bugged with block. Other 'when hit' modifiers are working as expected, such as thorns or 'increased armour if you have been hit recently'. Additionally, the mechanics of block cannot work without it being a hit
Can someone here explain to me, why the Heft support buffs the cold dmg of fx Ice Strike? As I understand the hit calculation the only thinf applied before conversion is flat dmg - and Heft is a more max physical dmg multiplier. So how does that make sense?
From what i could gather heft is considered as a modifier to base damage directly. Should be the same as the unique belt that affects base phys damage.
Heft (or any modifiers that applies more/less maximum/minimum damage) is applied after the flat damage calculation but before conversion. Though it may be confusingly written, 'More Maximum Physical Damage' is not a more multiplier in the sense of multiplying damage at the multipliers step, it's simply scaling the top end of your physical damage range
Dreadnought cruel difficulty getting killed in 1 s by random melee hit stun locking me at 80% dodge. Seriously the game would be so much better with most trash mobs being twice as slow and weaker. I hope the patch heavily nerf them because it sounds like they focused on very small details but most mobs basic attack still deals way too much damage. I mean the hedgehog on the beach at the very start of the game can two shot you lmao.
![[PATH OF EXILE 2] - 144x STELLAR AMULET vs CHANCE ORBS - GO BIG OR GO HOME!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t0vvbjtCKe8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[PATH OF EXILE 2] – 144x STELLAR AMULET vs CHANCE ORBS – GO BIG OR GO HOME!](/img/tr.png)
Written guide will be linked here when ready! (ETA 24h)
PATCH NOTES WHEN?!
The fact that Armor is checked before resistances is awful at any time that armor can be used to mitigate elemental damage. The node on the tree that allows 25% of armor to be used to mitigate fire damage might as well not even exist with the current calculations :(
What? You don't want to spend 4 points on 5% less fire damage taken?
Same with less on roll, it is just a terrible keystone at this point, but if applied pre-armour, could be useful on the class it is clearly designed to work with.
I was almost tempted to use that unique chest piece that essentially gives transcendence but better and try to get as much armor as possible through evasion on rings and iron reflex, max armor gloves boots and helmet etc, but this order of operations absolutely kills this kind of build
I love how you jumped right into it! I wish more content creators would learn that this makes videos so much more enjoyable.
I love these types of videos. While not flashy they are VERY important for helping people understand mechanics.
Finally, ive been waiting to binge a video like this like a dozen times to make sure i have it ingrained
Been waiting for this video since launch. Heroic work!
This video is very clear and informative, huge thanks for it mate
Very in detail but still easy to understand. Thanks a lot.
Short but comprehensive. Excellent video. thanks!
8:30 The way stun works in poe2 is criminal. There's no way to avoid stun like in poe1, even hits that deal 0 dmg can stun you as stun acts like a dark souls 'build up' meter. The fact that monsters gain a higher stun threshold value after being stunned (preventing chain perma-stuns) while players don't is complete bonkers. Its feels completely terrible playing with 75% block and getting perma stunlocked by 10 white bug mobs that are incapable of dealing damage to you.
What do you mean, no way to avoid it? You haven't noticed all the stun treshold clusters on the passive tree? That's how you avoid it.
Great video! Love when you make videos like this that we can refer back to when we are making builds to understand how effective our defense and offensive layers will be.
Really nicely explained. Great video man.
Truly a quality video
Armour cannot catch a break. Fire damage mitigated by % of armour is even worse than I thought.
Clearly explained video, cheers!
Gigachad video! Thank you!
great as always
Although I cannot confirm it, I believe that damage multipliers on martial weapons (such as "increased physical damage") are calculated before damage conversion in "Damage Calculation, Step 2".
The reason for this is small test that I made a while ago in which a character with Avatar of Fire + remaining conversion from skill (normalized total 100%) had the DPS tool tip increased significantly when the weapon had the "increased physical damage" modifier. Skill dealt no non-fire damage.
Note: I cannot recall if I took added flat damage into account, so the test could be contaminated, but I believe the character had no other sources of damage multipliers anywhere.
Anyone with different results?
Increased Physical Damage on martial weapons is a local Damage modifier, it's not applied globally to your character. This increase is used to scale the base Physical Damage and any local flat added Physical Damage on the weapon, therefore resulting in a higher base Damage(for attacks)
@@dreamcore_gg Thank you
Really informative video! It would be nice if you can also go into which modifiers affect dot damage vs hit damage
I intend to do a video for an overview of how ailments scale from hits and which modifiers affect those, soon!
@dreamcore_gg Do we know the interaction with skills which consume ailments? Mostly thinking about Shockchain arrow, does the damage from shockchain arrow still benefit from the shock, or does it "eat" the shock before the damage calculations?
Would be interesting to know about this!
Killer, this is what we need more of! 👍👍
Thank you for doing god's work. Very useful video.
Thank you for the content. Would have helped me for my Titan (my first build) with conversion and increased damage. I thought it would be the same like in PoE1, until I noticed it after long struggle.
Good Job
Awesome stuff bro
This video should be mandatory viewing for GGG onboarding. Also, Gain #% Elemental damage as extra is NOT converted by item bonuses. For example, using original sin should convert all of my elemental damage to chaos, but gaining #% damage as extra cold damage is still freezing and shattering enemies even though all my damage is presumably chaos.
Yeah they're applied simultaneously in conversion step 2. Gain as extra is always applied in step 2 even if it's from the skill gem itself, so the extra damage can never be converted.
That's extremely useful to know
Great explained! So far, I prefer PoE1's rules/order when it comes to conversion/dmg taken.
Great video! I may have misunderstood this part, but would the cloak of flame count as 'preventing' physical damage, for the sake of interacting with the Made to Last notable? Thanks
No it wouldn't, the damage is taken as fire and mitigated by fire resistance - the mitigated portion would count as prevented fire damage
@@dreamcore_gg Ahh makes sense, thanks for clarifying that
Necessary content bro!
I wonder if we could simplify some things, like PDR being called physical resistance instead.
I tried "made to last" on my svalinn warbringer with turtle charm allocated. The recovery only shows up in the character sheet when the damage bypasses my block chance.
There u go, gz on your graduation :)
bit confused on secondary conversion and damage as extra applied simultaneously. I'm using OS and damage as extra is actually shown in the tooltip and not converted to chaos making me think it's a step after all conversions.
They're applied at the same time in step 2 - any damage from 'gained as extra' mods cannot be further converted because of this. Even if the 'gained as extra' mod is part of a skill or support gem, it's still applied in step 2.
Would you be willing to do a follow up video on ailments?
Specifically poison and bleed.
I had only just managed to figure out the new ailment system when i realized that poison and bleed still break a lot of the rules for the other ones.
Specifically, in this video, you comment that ailments are applied/calculated before mitigation , which makes sense, because 'the ailment is not affected by anything that modifiers the damage the target takes from the hit "
However, then you list shock in the next step. And if you read the poe2 glossary, it explicitly says "modifiers that affect the enemy's ability to mitigate damage (such as shock) can affect the damage the enemy takes from poison"
Please don't take this as criticism for your explanation, I'm just very confused as to how this works
No criticism, I understand the confusion because GGG's tooltip description is poorly worded. See example below
As you mention, the ailment magnitude is not affected by any modifiers that change how much damage a target takes from a hit. Magnitude is essentially how much damage the ailment deals, let's take the example of ignite - base magnitude is 20% of the fire damage of a hit per second.
The target has no resistances, which you modify with flammability to -30% fire resistance. The magnitude of the ignite is still 20% of the fire hit per second, but the target is now taking 30% more damage from the fire damage over time dealt by the ignite, so they're effectively taking 26% of the fire hit damage per second.
Shock increases the damage the enemy takes from all sources. Let's take a base shock of 20%. The magnitude of the ignite is still 20% of the fire hit per second, but the target is effectively taking 31.2% of the fire hit per second.
So to clarify, modifiers on the target won't improve the magnitude of inflicted ailment, but they'll improve the damage a target takes from an ailment - hope that's helpful, but yes I will indeed be doing an ailments video soon!
@dreamcore_gg thank you so much
It at least explains the confusion
'magnitude' vs actual damage dealt.
Looking forward to the episode!
I just realized
Does that mean 10% poison magnitude would make the poison based off 30% of the hit, not 20?
I figured 10% would be 20% * 1.1 = functionally 22%
Great video!
One question: I heard players have stun buildup too for regular stun (not heavy), is that true?
great video
Wait, does this mean that damage can be converted twice, as long as they take place in separate steps? Let’s suppose there were a physical to fire support gem. If I used that with the gloves, would I end up with physical to cold, effectively? Or does the second step only apply to damage that wasn’t converted in the first step?
Yes it can, for example Perfect Strike combined with Blueflame Bracers - on a Perfect Strike, the skill will convert 80% of physical damage to fire damage, then Blueflame converts 100% of fire damage to cold damage
Does "gain as extra" damage still count as, e.g., "spell" damage if it is being added to a spell?
Helpful info. Wondering how people find this stuff out? Is it datamining or something?
Lots of testing
@@dreamcore_gg but it's so specific... Can you give an example of how you would determine the actual order of the calculations?
How do u know all that??
Some people are claiming there is still stun buildup on players even with hits below the stun threshold. Is there any confirmation or testing that proves one over the other?
1. 2. 4. 5.
The 3. is the actual as extra step.
How did that happen
How much resistance to elements do enemies have by default and when they have weakness or extra resistance to elements?
So what are the differences compared to PoE?
Most importantly I'd say is the order in which armour is applied to elemental damage.
"Heatproofing; 25% of Armour also applies to Fire Damage taken from Hits"
applies before resistance, this is different from PoE.
So in PoE it's much better, because there the big hit is reduced first by resistance to a small hit, then the armour is more effective.
In PoE2 25% of the terrible armour damage reduction is applied first on the big hit, making it a terrible notable.
Quick question about MoM and Bleed. It's to my knowledge that bleed requires the hit to be inflicted on life in order to proc the bleed. However, suppose you have Mind over Matter. How does that interact with bleed in the case that your ES pool is gone when you take a physical hit that can inflicts bleeding?
This I haven't tested but it should theoretically work to prevent bleeding if the hit entirely impacts mana
@@dreamcore_gg Thank you!
@ One other question I just thought of, hope I'm not a bother, but is the damage conversion ordering the same as in Poe 1, that is Physical → Lightning → Cold → Fire → Chaos?
@@LifeForAiur No, the order is gone in PoE2, any damage can be converted to any other damage type as long as the modifiers exist for it
@@dreamcore_gg Do they have a way to prevent infinite conversion loops (I believe that was the reason they had the ordering in PoE 1) within the way the calculations are fundamentally done?
Can you explain "bonestorm". when does that added damage apply?
At the added damage stage, added to base damage
There is so much wrong with this when it comes to armour...
They need to either buff armour 3x more than they did in the new patch or move the conversion and the less taken to happen before armour is applied.
i think the armour fix has several components to it - change order of calculations, increase effectiveness, and rework the skill tree to have actual life increase nodes. Last one can alternatively be replaced by making strength give more hp, but that opens a whole different can of worms. Changing the order of operations is crucial because otherwise Heatproofing is worthless - if witches and sorcs can be 100% immune to chaos damage with some point investment, it's only fair for warrior to be practically immune to fire
Are we sure blocking counts as getting hit because i swear i wasnt getting rage on blocking attacks
I believe the 'gain rage when hit by an enemy' modifier is currently bugged with block. Other 'when hit' modifiers are working as expected, such as thorns or 'increased armour if you have been hit recently'. Additionally, the mechanics of block cannot work without it being a hit
same logic is used for other parts on the game as well reason ghostwrite gives es with ci or eb + everlasting gaze make u still have es.
what about curse, exposure & pen?
They're all part of the resistance phase of mitigation. Pen doesn't penetrate beyond 0% resistance, but anything that lowers resistance can
Is gain % dmg as extra cold damage same as more % dmg or increase % dmg? Or in between?
He mentions it. It is applied as a conversion.
It's extra damage scaled from flat damage - more effective the more flat damage you have, and scaled by increases and more multipliers
Can someone here explain to me, why the Heft support buffs the cold dmg of fx Ice Strike? As I understand the hit calculation the only thinf applied before conversion is flat dmg - and Heft is a more max physical dmg multiplier. So how does that make sense?
From what i could gather heft is considered as a modifier to base damage directly. Should be the same as the unique belt that affects base phys damage.
Heft (or any modifiers that applies more/less maximum/minimum damage) is applied after the flat damage calculation but before conversion. Though it may be confusingly written, 'More Maximum Physical Damage' is not a more multiplier in the sense of multiplying damage at the multipliers step, it's simply scaling the top end of your physical damage range
@@dreamcore_gg slightly confusing, but thank you for the clarification, both to you and yochie 😀
how about damage from warcry?
Warcry damage is a hit.
I would think Corrupting Blood -support is an ailment applied only if the Warcry damage hits.
@@RobertoCorsini if it's hit. thats mean it can proc some chance on hit?
@ Yes.. such as Bleed on hit works.
Dreadnought cruel difficulty getting killed in 1 s by random melee hit stun locking me at 80% dodge.
Seriously the game would be so much better with most trash mobs being twice as slow and weaker. I hope the patch heavily nerf them because it sounds like they focused on very small details but most mobs basic attack still deals way too much damage.
I mean the hedgehog on the beach at the very start of the game can two shot you lmao.
5:00 1 2 4 5 6 :)
3 is the magic number
You sound like the ragegaming guy, this your alt account? 🤔😂
Step zero: none of it matters because you can't find equipment in the first place.
Silentstill did a video on this for all my English listeners!
?
hell yeah
@silentstill made my night
49second gang gang