Where are the LIVE features in Ableton LIVE 12?!
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
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00:00 I'm a bit disappointed
00:37 Good things! Quality of life
01:15 The "Exciting things" don't excite me
01:40 do we need more synths?
02:47 this is meant for LIVE performance?
04:08 Performance Pack Shortcomings
05:30 This has been bothering me: Bink Beats
08:14 Other DAWs pay attention to the audience
08:51 New Search isn't great
09:58 sound selection isn't great
10:22 What do you think?
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Hi! My name is TAETRO. thanks for reading to the bottom of this page. i love making music, being creative and also helping other people make music and be creative. you can consider me your electronic music mentor. if you want to support this channel, many of the above links are affiliate links which means you can purchase gear or software at no additional cost and i will get a commission :) even just liking the video and subscribing to the channel helps a ton. thanks for watching the video!
many new features are not exciting FOR ME...it is ok if they are exciting FOR YOU!
if you don't want to hear my opinion, tell youtube to hide my videos, unsubscribe etc.
also to the many of you responding so emotionally and taking my words (about a daw) personally - please go to therapy.
Highly respect your commitment to honesty and authenticity.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 this has been the best caption to the video "please go to therapy
Dude, it's a bit premature for me to remark - I've only listened to the first two sentences of your video, LOL. But what you said is more imporant than anything you might say subsequent to your second sentence. "Worried about the future of Live as a DAW."
Ya think?! I was told (and I have to limit my remarks to avoid being bombarded by Ableton if they watch this video) they will not solve my show-stopping problem - though they did try. I've HAD to move to Bitwig.
Okay, now I'll watch your full video!
Sounds like you’re the one who needs therapy. I want to like your content I really do. The videos of you creating beats and not talking I enjoy. It’s when you open your mouth and your personality shines through that I start to pull back. You are arrogant and you can continue to deflect it into everyone else, but one day you’re going to realize you get what you give.
i wanna see you using fl, plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I gig every weekend doing live looping in session view with my guitar and a few controllers, and I too was hoping for more live performance tools. I feel seen by your video haha. You were not harsh you were super logical and I agree with your perspective. Thanks for the video!
I like these synths and midi transformation, also the new browser looks way more handy to organize stuff the way you want, without sticking to folders or just 8 colored tags to choose from. But i really expected these things:
1. Real time vocal tuning and ability to tune your stuff manually as in Cubase and Logic. Yeah, i know it's technically hard to make this algorithm not to sound like sh*, but Live costs around $700-800. Logic costs $200, Cubase - less than $600 and these guys have some instant tuning stuff.
2. An ability to link devices and clips. I really wanna make one edit at one track (tweak the EQ or drop some plugin) and then have an ability to apply this change at the rest of the tracks with the same processing chain (vocal tracks in the same group, for expample). I don't think it's too hard to make something like this - it's just like hot swap, but within the project. One chain that you can multiply and each copy would be updated. The same for clips - loop is definitely not enough, 'cause there is no link with the same part, but in the next section.
3. Just my own wish - make the ability to quick save track content withing the take lanes as "comp" to have the ability to backup. I use it all the time, but now it's a bit complicated to copy, insert a take lane, then name it as comp, and then some new stuff can be recorded at this lane to mess it up. I think it's very easy to make this option after the right click, like "Save a new track Compilation".
4. An ability to make preview of your presets fast with one button or automatically without making an ALC. It's really annoying when you have to save your stuff as a clip to have the pre-listen feature.
Yeah, i'm not a live performer, i use Ableton's workflow for production as many other guys like me. However, new performance feature would be cool too, 'cause Ableton used to make its software very versatile. That's my humble opinion as a user anyway.
You can do #2 with Kshmr Chain! You set one track as the leader/master and every adjustment you do to that track will happen to every other track you put the “follower” plug-in on. You can save the setup as a Default set so it’s more integrated and just works too.
@@PermissionToMeow Wow, thanks for the advice, i'll try it, 'cause i'm really tired of copy and paste any chain i want to tweak🙏🏼
@@artemyeden no prob! Get it on a Black Friday deal and you’ll be set
Yup for 2nd point kshmr chain is the plug in but I've been wanting some sort of tuning plugin or vocal or instruments tuning ability inside of the daw for very long now but all they go for is adding new synths while inbuilt tuning software is a must feature and I think basic eq can have a dynamic eq feature and also liner phase eq feature I don't know why it's not there yet.
I'd be interested in your take on alternative DAWs. It seems companies stop innovating shortly after they have the majority mindshare.
#BitWig
Fl Studio is still innovative. They seem to be the only ones that are innovative now.
@@ElectronicaStation1 This.
Well said! - I wish DAW makers would stop synth/FX bloat and focus on stuff that one can only BUY in a DAW - plugins can be bought anywhere. WORKFLOW BABY! - whether LIVE clip launch thing or even ARRANGER "producer thing" to be honest.Or in my case - typically astarting in LIVE perform/improv mode and then movin to arrange to edit
Interesting commment, here. It's a lot cheaper to make a new synth - especially if it's origins are in Max Live plugins seeing as how Ableton owns Cycling '73 (Max) than to change the workflow of a DAW.That's the reality. I agree with you, though.
Opinion - the vast majority of live users are hobbyists who will put down music and go onto something new in a few years. It's like picking up dollar bills off the ground. Those 'casuals' sustain Ableton. Ableton is moving away from professionals or more serious hobbyists, their old revenue model.
What sort of live features do you need?
The piano roll stuff is really advanced and worth the upgrade
the new piano roll operator stuff exist as free m4l device since over 2 years...
Live copy the exact funtionality , only the color is changed and now sell what was free.....
@@sebbosebbo9794 no, not at all
@@sebbosebbo9794 can you share some of the device names please, deff tryna check em out
I feel like I live on another planet but the improved integration of Max for Live into clips is huge. This advanced the creative opportunities for Max For Live developers. This means all the MIDI features you imagine you'd want can be developed in the coming months. This new V12 features seems to allow us to generate and transform MIDI directly into clips. V12 establishes a new way for new features from a wider array of developers, which includes myself. Am I the only one realizing this?
perhaps it will open up a wide variety of new possibilities! I hope you're right.
I mainly use Cubase and Reaper and was into Ableton lately due to grabbing a Push 2. Tried Bitwig the last month and it was a lot of fun. Might be the road to go :)
As A FL STUDIO OWNER… I Must Say “FL TAKES GOOD CARE OF ITS USERS THE MOSTEST” 😁😎
Can you leave us Ableton users to complain in peace please 😂
You may have won the battle this time but it doesn't mean you've won the war.
@@xmus4023 FL User's Are Not Fighter's, We're Lover's. And We Love Being Shown Love By Our DAW That Has Been Loyal To Us By Given Love to Us BACK. 😁 We Are The ART Of WAR, MUSICALLY Thou.😎
You absolutely nailed it. I worried I was going to be the only one who felt like this. Live is supposed to make performing/creating *live* and I would really have liked clyphx type of native integration
Been waiting for this for years.
I'm personally excited for this. I primarily use Arrangement, in a sit-down and record environment (even though it's called LIVE), and prefer Ableton over any other DAW I've ever tried.
I think with this release, Ableton is really trying to solidify itself as a COMPLETE daw. I'd say they seem like they have the LIVE performance aspect of a daw nailed down tight. But again, I don't use this Live, so I'm not sure how crippling it really is to use it LIVE.
For people that use Ableton strictly as a Recording/Production environment like myself (I literally have no use for Session View, except for the Mixer), it's a godsend that they are implementing these tools. Having the Mixer visible in Arrangement View has got me SO hyped.
I get everyone's argument on this being called LIVE, and it not having a lot of new LIVE performance tools, but it's so much more.. and they aren't going to release a completely new DAW called STUDIO or anything, so this next evolution just makes sense (for someone like me).
Personally, I wish they would release a controller dedicated to Arrangement View, but I know that will never happen.
I'm with you. I've been heading production on a live band hip-hop album. The real life application of these improvements are great. On top of the standard functionality of Ableton, these updates make it a much more usable DAW for producing and recording live.
Only difference is I use a lot of session view when producing my own music.
Can't agree, because even for strictly recording/production it seems off?
Piano roll was a big request that seems to be greatly attended, but top feature requests for Recording/Production aren't here, like ARA2, freeze groups, bounce in place, hide/deactivte tracks, etc.
That, among lots of other stuff, would be a solidifying step as a complete daw, as you say.
Mixer view is nice but way incomplete without a true mixing view with vertical devices/vst slots, no custom aux, buses names and unable to reorder return tracks.
I'm more excited you can now record without monitoring latency, that's a big one lol. And zoom waveforms.
I hear you for sure. I know the majority of Live users are using it for performance, but I don't want them to forget that, it's kind of what makes Ableton Live special!
What would an Arrangement controller need to have to be great?
@@Taetro I've thought about it a lot overnight, and you're right.. I think, given the time they had between 11 and 12, they probably could have refined some things or added some new/ requested features for the live performance aspect of things, as well as implemented everything they announced as well.
Here's to hoping they add some spicy stuff in between official releases.
Your vids have always mostly been about live performance, and I do understand your frustration.
For an Arrangement Controller, I'd love to see something along the lines of the old APC40 (I still have mine haha), with physical faders, full metronome control, loop brace control, and 16 encoders , and and a screen like the Push 2-3 has. They could leave the MPE pads off and have it strictly as a mix console. Would play nice with a Push 3 for a total performance/ mixing environment.
@@PsfhC...well...Sends...yeah, reorder..good point... and midi controller ready...some controller Script doesnt work with the sends...
Very great points. I hadn't thought about this but it does seem strange that the namesake feature (Live performance) is delegated to M4L devices for the most part.
exactly!
Totally agree with you on the live part.
The funny thing is they haven't even nailed basic features in linear workflow.
2 issues that make me consider switching to bitwig:
- you can't fade multiple audio clips on the same track
- you can't multi select alternating clips
These are basic features of a linear workflow.... seems like they are trying to cater for both linear and live workflows and not delivering fully on either
I think you're missing the point of having Max For Live : what works for Binkbeats might not work for another artist. So why would it be better to impose someone's workflow to everybody rather than provide tools to create your own perfectly adapted solution ? Keeping it open is a good approach in my opinion.
By the way, Prearranger works with MIDI tracks, you just have to replace the audio track with a MIDI one.
I'm shook on how this got approved as a major release version. They didn't even address some of the most requested features of the past 5+ years. Simple stuff like adding a clip gain button directly on audio clips in the playlist so you can adjust audio clip gain on the fly. What about "bounce in place" or "freezing groups"?
Ableton basically just decided to add a few synths and changed the UI slightly and made minor changes to the piano roll and browser and labeled it "Live 12". Yikes!!!
And some of the 'big' new feature - scale awareness, etc., have been around for years via Max for Live and are probably those identical Max products. That's just one example.
I'm saying that with the exception of Roar and Meld, you can create every new feature in Version 12 through old Max for Live devices, albeit, not everyone wants to do that.
Thanks for this video !!!
By the way , which boom arm are you using?
I agree!
I would like them to have either like three separate daws or 3 modes: live, producer, and designer
Amen, we need the live looping situation fixed! I love the live looping on Push but many of Push’s looping features are not available in regular Ableton. Push’s looping features are implemented with complex MIDI remote scripts (python code that manipulates Live). I am so surprised we don’t have features like “fixed loop length” built into Live.
That is one very curious one that no one even knows about if they don't own a push
NAILED IT! Ableton should be paying Binkbeats and figuring out how to make his system as simple and integrated as possible to trigger recording, playback, etc. as automatic as you want it.
I have to agree with you. I could care less about another synth, I have waaaaaay more than I need already. I get that it might bring new blood in, but. . . having just learned Bitwig and Studio One, I still love Ableton Live for the 'live element' as you say. That is what sets Ableton apart from everybody else. . . and everybody else is working on catching up in one way or another. How about Ableton concentrates on staying ahead of the pack on the 'live' aspect? Clearly, all of the developers can create cool synths, but they can't all create cool performing environments.
I agree. 'Revenue' is why Ableton focuses nowadays on 'new' synths. My thoughts on synths:
. True sythesist nuts who use live for composition are probably so far beyond Meld and roar, I doubt they have much interest.
. On the othre hand for newer users Meld and Roar are sufficiently complicated that must probably give up on them quickly. LOL.
And the REALLY strange thing is that live has some incredible legacy instruments in version 8 that are totally world class.
So yeah, they should focus on basic functionality but don't hold your breath.
Great points. I waited for over a year for ClyphX Pro to announce operability with Ableton11 so I could start working on live looping. Who knows how long it will be until ClyphX will be compatible with Live 12. It would have been awesome if Ableton had given some consideration towards developing more native tools for live looping, which as you say, is supposed to be what makes this DAW special.
best addition to live since Live 8....
Live 12 uses the same Python version of Live 11 so Clyphx Pro is already compatible and working in Live 12. Just the fact that Live allows for custom scripts like the amazing Clyphx is an amazing feature and it was not Ableton fault that Clyphx was not ready for Live 11 when it got released. Yes it would be awesome to see some of the features Clyphx brings to Live natively implemented, but how cool it is that you can do that anyway?
@@simonsaid88 That is a good point. I don't know anything about Python, or how to integrate it into Ableton. If you have any good suggestions for educational resources, I'd appreciate it.
Bitwig!! Once you have a taste of the power it holds - you'll never go back!!
Bitwig is nice but max for live is way more powerful.
@@valdir7426I'd be curious what live has that bitwig lacks... I find tons of amazing features in bitwig that let's you do just about anything you want.
@@valdir7426 when max loads finally
Agreed. For a 12, this upgrade looks more like a 0.5 jump. And another money grab. If you want the Performance Pack, fork out for Suite when it should be a standard feature given all the other DAWS out there. I think Ableton has become too comfortable in their skin, and yeah, like you I’m looking around to others out of curiosity. Who knows, I already have Bitwig and they seem to listen better to their users.
why dont people prefer logic pro can somone explain
@@displaced777 what? How are cubase, studio one, reaper, bitwig etc. unusable?
Cheers for the info. Does the folder system still work or do I need to stick with Live 11? My workflow/brain needs folders.. not tagging 😒
Nice video! My impression of the update is also to be a bit underwhelmed - although there are definitely some things I am excited to explore. I’m interested in Meld, myself…but I tend to agree with you that relatively wonky synths isn’t really what a DAW maker should be focused on. 😁
Maybe it should be renamed into Ableton blipblop, as it is going more and more into this sounddesign with randomly generated notes etc. That also maked me sad, I was hoping for a much tighter Push integration like Maschine, pitch correction like Variopitch and a Fx Modulator like in Cubase (or Shaperbox), better video integration (also for live performance). THAT would have been worth a $230 upgrade price!
Small detail but its not really a global scale. Scale is specific to the clip. To change all clip you would need to select all the cilps & then use the scale selector at the top. This is way better, more flexible than a global scale imo.
Thanks for being HONEST!! Most people just ride the hype wagon. You keep it real
For years I've been using Live on stage for VSTs and clips. Lately I've been using Gig Performer because it's so much more flexible for setting up and running VSTs, especially when it comes to creating presets, patches, and mappings, etc for as a keyboard player on stage, . As soon as they add a good clip launching routine, I'll be using them exclusively.
I was waiting for your take on this! It's literally a Quality of life update. I cannot justify paying the "upgrade" price compared to what we are actually getting. These are all things that other DAWs already had years ago. It's still ableton 11 imo. Also Where is ARA??
ARA🤝
@ableton we want ARA!
What is ARA?
@@kennethdarlington Audio Random Access. Look it up, synchroarts has a great explanation of the standard function
According to google - Ara is some Armenian male name, parrot species and Georgian word for "no".
Not sure if I need any of that in my Live. Wait, except for parrot, parrots are cool.
Funny thing is i got an email this morning with the "new update" and was quite underwhelmed. I don't particularly like most of Live's synths or FX anyways, and I have more than enough VSTs. I really liked the generative features which could be interesting, but there are definitely some other things I would expect them to do before adding MORE synths. Not sure if I'm going to do the upgrade this time around and maybe try out bitwig.
soooo many folks recommending bitwig
I understood Live to refer to Max Live. I have just purchased a Push 3 so I’m very new to it. I had no idea it meant live performance. I’m just using it to explore sounds and discover what it does in that regard. I like bands like Autechre and I know they use Max Live so I thought it would be intriguing to grasp what that might be.
It’s interesting how I have bought into the product and software without having the slightest idea what it was fundamentally designed to do. I imagine I imposed my personal interest in sound and noise and saw the marketing in a way I wished the product to be. I do enjoy it but then I’m never going to be on a stage performing so maybe in that sense I will never feel the true limitations as an expert such as as yourself would.
Thank you as always for your thoughts and interesting videos. 🙏🏽
When i checked what my upgrade cost was i was rather shocked since there's no stems feature (which is what a bunch of people i know wanted). With the cost of an upgrade i could build a norns shield and buy a used grid controller and do waaaay more.
It might of been because they knew they couldn’t get the quality of a RipX or Izotope RX10 i’m thinking
don't forget bandlab is free and you can do stem separation right in your browser!!
Man Live 10 to 11 seemed to take a long time. But Live 11 to 12 seems too short 🤷♀
been Ableton Live Suite user since 8, 9 (best experience for me and my APC-40 mk-1 with native kontrol script) and I stop at 10. I wish they maximized performance core and efficiency core like reaper did. now I’m thinking about using Bitwig for live performance.
Good points. Let's face it the instruments in live don't compete with 3rd parties. It's the functionality that gets me excited. I'm a session view person myself and I create tracks progressively scene by scene. Then it's an easy port to the arrange page and I can work on automation. If you're an arrange page person I would have thought cubase or logic would be the way to go? But your point stands. More looping, performance based progression would be great. I think there's maybe enough functionality to get me to upgrade but nothing that sets my hair on fire. Maybe there'll be more interaction between session and arrange pages? I'll wait and see. But yeah please, less fart modelling instruments and more triggery, loopy, interactivey stuff!
Good points. But dude, record scenes into arrangment. Then mess with them, then utilize Ableton's best feature ""consolidate time to new scene." The only bummer is the clips take on funny new names "2100 guitar 4 pm" but you can live with that.
@@allancerf9038that's funny. I only discovered this a couple of days ago. It's transformational!
I feel the same way. Not planning on upgrading anytime soon
Personally i don't think the new devices are made to get the majority exited, i see them as nice to have.
The stuff people getting exited about in the internet is mainly workflow related and even if you made good points about shortcomings, i think it is the first time since years Ableton substantially improve workflow through the UI and GUI. I see your points but i think they match even more to Live 10 and 1. This release gives me more hope than other releases, even if there are still missing things and if they are not super polished yet.
The problem with taetros position is that Ableton has data to support their development path. Taetros wants are not those of 90% of live users.
FL is kicking butt when it comes to midi stuff so that's why Ableton spent time in that area. As far as I can tell Ableton is allowing other DAWS to beta test features before they implement. It's a bit like iphones and android. At this point anything that's added to a DAW is a nice to have not a requirement.
Many of the big saws don't have stem separation just yet. I think we'll survive
2 things that have always been missing from Ableton.... 1: Crossfade looping, my S950 does this, does the new version of Ableton ? Why on earth hasn't it been implemented ? 2: Timer buffers on faders, even the new long travel ones will be clunky with small controllers, the wonderful (but old) Audiomulch has always had this... Yes, I know there are MAX for Live workarounds but many of us don't have that... thanks for this :-)
All I want to know is did they fix the 2gig file limit yet? It’s ridiculous. Which DAW should I switch to if not?
Yeah dude, I understand where you’re coming from. My initial reaction was a lot of frustration, too, over similar reasons (stem separation is probably biggest of these). Now, I think I still want to get this new update, but the lack of basic fundamental features (they’re only *just now* adding track meters and those options in Arrangement View??) is still off putting to me when I compare workflows between a couple other DAWs. The idea that I have to go between multiple applications just to get a task done (like bouncing in place) shouldn’t be a thing…
Really appreciate you calling this out, I’m always bouncing between Bitwig, Gig performer, Loopy pro and Live for various features and reasons …would love for Ableton LIVE 2 be on the cutting edge of live performance again……performance pack at least seems a lil interesting tho
It’s crazy that the LIVE daw is not the optimal choice for all LIVE situations!!
I agree with you Taetro. As a workflow feature, I've been asking for the Akai MPC type of record quantize forever.
Your training in Ableton has really blessed me. Thank you. I do feel like they are getting away from what most people use Ableton for… live music sessions. Thank you.
FACTS!!!!
I'm excited for this. These are very practical features for production and especially for projects I've been doing lately recording live band hip-hop.
I'm offered the electronic style production method I like and am able to apply it to live band recording and editing.
The tuning feature is an amazing addition for exploring new compositional possibilities. The changes around modulation are great. I'm very happy about the new plugins, I love Ableton synth plugins over pretty much any other software synth. The stack view is awesome and a big help workflow. I think the piano roll additions will be very useful.
I'd rather Ableton include these more standard DAW functions so I can keep using the things that are unique to Ableton while offering a full spectrum DAW experience. They were smart to add these features now, which is a considerable amount of work and a great change for this DAW.
By the way, with this is mind, it makes sense you have offered the critiques about the lacking live performance aspects.
I think your commemts are valid ones. I've used Live since Ableton 8, and have always had a love/hate relationship with this DAW. I've been a pro muscian/composer for many decades and I've mainly used Live for arrangements and backup tracks. I do defintely agree that I'm not in need of more synths. I'm a heavy NI library and Kontakt user (which is not always 100% compatible with Ableton). However, I will still get 12. I'm always searching for something new I can I can utilize.
I was disappointed by the announcement. I’ve started largely transitioning to Bitwig but I still start projects in Ableton because the MIDI editor is just far better than Bitwig’s.
Most of these new features already exist in Bitwig and are far cleaner in implementation. I just don’t see myself wanting to use any of them.
That Bitwig doesn't have a scrub audio tool is a show stopper. I bought Bitwig, but A. While it's powerful it's overrated, and B. Their top brass (at least Bitwig executives CARE enough to address concerns) wrote me and said, yes a scrubbing tool is hugely important. For reasons they wouldn't go into, though, they said they don't have immediate plans for one.
funny this popped in my feed a couple days after searching for any exciting news about LIVE performance stuff in LIVE 12... i updated and felt the exact same, and it actually tanks some of my projects with large amounts of scenes so to me that's a very obvious example of where their focus is not at
ooof that's tough. Let's hope for some point updates comiing down the pipeline!
I love this new update. The only thing I'm missing is a way to sequence Session clips. The Scenes-sequencing is very limited as it can only play a *row* of clips whereas I want to sequence *arbitrary* collections of clips. The only way to do that is to drag scenes into the Arrangement, which is much more limited than just sequence scenes (patterns) like you did with old days sound trackers. If this was implemented, or if there was a M4L device that could do it, I'd be in thrilled.
The last time Ableton blew me away was capture, it’s still incredible. But these new features aren’t that competitive with other daws
Agree about capture.
i just started learning Ableton Suite 11....and i think ill just keep using this version for a while....I wouldnt mind more plugins and VST's though..
Anyone know why Ableton live 12 doesn't show the VST folders anymore? Its all VSTS now and no folders...so now I don't know what is what cause everything was organize by folder names!
For me the point of ableton is when I want to do something crazy it's always possible through max for live, or somebody has developed a tool to do it already. I've made many performance tools for instance to use the arranger live and trigger different loops in the arranger. I feel like it's already bloated with infinite features and while there might be a few annoying things sometimes it's mere small details. Now I don't absolutely need what live 12 has to offer but generative tools for example is something I use a lot so why not. People are always demanding new things but there wasn't much already I couldn't do in live 9 or 10. (Not sure what is this stem separation thing people are raving about?) Nice little feature in ableton 12 still: you can disable delay compensation and record external synth without this pesky offset.
Stem separation is just the new toy. Plenty of the other major DAWS don't have it either. And musicians haven't had it for a hundred years. We'll be fine if it takes a year or two for it to hit Ableton. You can close your eyes and pick a DAW in 2023. No sense in getting all worked that the latest version doesn't have the one feature you would like
Totally agree with all your points. I bought ableton v1 at a music show.
I never use the packs in suite. I can’t find any good drum kits or synth presets. So I just use splice and third party plug ins.
This update seems to be addressing the lack of vst support in their new push line, hence the new synth, more MPE compatibility and max for live stuff.
I do like the scale feature and the arrangement mixer but that’s just an incremental update to 11 imho.
Logic Pro is only another £50 extra to Abletons update price and I’m a Mac user. Apple haven’t charged for an update in 10 years so I’m told by other users and their last update was quite substantial and they now have the iPad version compared to Abletons Note.
The Daw market is changing and there is a lot of competition now. I think we will see a shift in the DAW top ten in the next 5 years.
Ableton need to be mindful of that when they charge for these kind of updates.
99% of their market is hobbyists and with Black Friday on our doorstep and the cost of living pressing peoples pockets we have to choose wisely where we spend the money.
I agree with your points especially your last sentence "99% are hobbyists." Therein lies the problem.
However, I'm amazed you can't find any good drum kits. Stunned. It's a pain to rehearse them.
The best ever 3rd party packs, and the most fun - by 10 miles are those by Mad Zach. Absolutely light years ahead of everyone else. He stopped making them and offered them all to me for 50 bucks. Yes! But he said if I use them in professional projects like film, I'd have to run them by him so he could make sure they were different enough from his 'stock' sounds. LOL. If you're a hobbyist, then give them a shot - there's nothing remotely as good.
@@allancerf9038 yes it was the mad Zach stock pads that were really good. In fact I spent many hours just jamming the 64 pad kits. Maybe it’s just the way the synth presets load up. I’m a preset browser and tweaker if I’m honest. So having to load a complete instrument for every patch is a bit slow as compared to a vst where I can just audition through them. I mainly make melodic house and a bit of garage so Diva is my go to. Still sounds great even though it’s old
@@Marco-ek8wu Cool. I still use Strike 2 - despite it's unsupported status and bugs because it's the only software I know of (I could be wrong) that analyzes your own drum parts and then improves on them. People constantly ask how the hell I get drums like that and I say "dude, forget it. The work arounds take a good week to learn non-stop. It's cool for me, not for you."
I'll have to check out Diva.
I get all your points! They make a lot of sense, but right now they might have done this because of Push 3, which everything new should work on it on standalone mode.... and since it can't load 3rd party vests, they put more synths, because you can actually play live with the Push 3 (standalone of course). Maybe this update is not for everyone.
They could have pushed the synths on a 11 update and focus more on the live part in 12
this is for sure a logical explanation. thank you!
@@Taetro just another perspective man! I do get you! In my mind, from 10 to 11 felt like a bigger change, but a friend of mine (Certified Trainer) told me the manual actually had more things that haven’t been shown yet, so I’ll have to read it and maybe change the feeling.
I felt it was lackluster, and apparently it's not like they've done a code base update either to make live more reliable, had a bunch of issues with Push 3 as well when they should resolve those too.
I like some of the UX options but really that could have been some changes that are free.
Also most hardcore synth nerds use hardware 😂
Rock on Taetro!
Personally, I think the upgrades look great, albeit and perhaps a little expensive for what it is. That said, I think that your critiques of the lack of improvement focused on the live performance aspect of Ableton LIVE by its development team is right on the money! I hope these feedback of yours get to their hears, cause it feels like it could and should impact future developments. Thanks for your honest and critical review of Live 12 and keep up your great work!
I kind agree with Live stuff need more enhancements . Back in the day what makes people to choose using Ableton, simply because it offer new way to jam or messing around in real time with multitrack audio loops more than a DJ with their session view .
I kind to believe that more and more electronic musician prefer turntables or digital ones when doing live show . The company start shifting their orientation into full fledged DAW up from 8th version.
As an Ableton user for like 16 years, the Piano Roll was often the elephant in the room feature that was at least perceived to be lacking compared to other DAWS.
I can definitely see why they focused on that.
Another feature they kicked down the road was ARA support. But definitely not a Live feature.
I think a huge chunk of Ableton's users are Studio Producers now who probably never performed Live.
Mr myself is a live performer who have used Ableton in Live situations (to play VSTis). It worked well using just one controller but as soon as I added a second controller the workflow went to the toilet. It would be nice to improve that. Studio Ones Live Mode (while more complicated to setup) works much better and takes multiple controllers into consideration better.
Now why they included synths? That is easy. With the new standalone Push3, synths I think will become an even bigger focus for Ableton.
One thing I fail to see with these updates is how it will integrate with push. So I hope browsing experience is improved.
I agree that Ableton's presets in general leave alot to be desired (although they have improved over the years), alot of their presets go into the weird/experimental, and less traditional bread/butter stuff (and yes I also wonder why so many presets are baked with distortion).
That said they are in a hard place.
You have Studio Producers who probably want more traditional DAW functionality
You have Midi composers (some of which who might not own a keyboard), who want piano roll features.
You have Live performers who would want features for performing live.
It would be a difficult job to balance the needs of a wide user base.
I'm actually really impressed that you said this. I switched already awhile back because I saw these coming but I will always love ableton. I just had to realize that it's not the daw for what I want to do
great video, did not know about the update before this, on the part of them continuing adding synths, I think probably they are valuable now that they have the standalone thing, people who purchased the push 3 to use it standalone will love to have new synths
you’re right!
I'm glad I'm not alone in this. I got really bummed out when I saw the first few vids about 12. The whole reason I liked Ableton is that although I don't perform live, that focus meant the UI/UX was built to be uncluttered and minimal. Historically it's been easy to read, and easy to use. With the new browser, all the new panels you can open up, it looks more and more like the garish DAWs it was meant to be an alternative to. Also for what it's worth- I've never updated from Live Standard because I've never been interested in any the added synths, they just clutter up my browser.
I agree 100% thanks for being honest in your reviews
I'm just glad that I waited until now to buy Suite in the first place, on sale and free upgrade! Otherwise, I would feel not so good about the "upgrade". I already have SO many synth and FX plugins, I don't really see the value in more considering that these new plugins for Live12 are not VSTs and therefore can't be used outside of Live. Coming from using Cakewalk as my primary DAW for the last 20+ years and using Maschine for sketching, switching over to Live to satisfy both, I would have also loved to see more performance/sketching quality of life features (such as Launch Quantiziation by Scene length and the dynamic record start on first note detection, like Maschine does when recording MIDI clips). It's nice to see that they are adding QoL things like the browser tagging/filtering, the multi-view supports, etc. but they also still don't let you break out the rack, clips or mixer/faders to separate windows, a pretty common DAW feature.
I am feeling a bit like Live has a bit of an identity crisis and what they are dedicating their resources to (new synths, fx, etc.) doesn't really support the DAW aspect. If I want more synths and FX, sell them to me as addons, otherwise, stick to creating more functionality in your DAW!! ...
that's what I'm a bit worried about. currently on Live 10 Standard a keystep 37, 2 korg synths and a freshly acquired Digitakt.
I've been considering upgrading since getting it and esp during a sale, admittedly for the sake of getting more use out of my Push 2 and mess around with Max devices as i did with the 11 beta. I was a bit excited when saw the announcement vid for Live 12, but from what I saw was only UI updates and an extra synth. While by no means I'm a performer, I pray they add more performance based or really any meaningful features that aren't just new synths/effects as launch date nears.
Yea kinda agree with you!! Tbh the features especially the midi tools really really help me, and I’ll be upgrading bc of that but I can see how if you don’t like sequencing and advanced midi manipulation it’d be pretty useless esp for $200 or whatever. I hope next update explores more of those live looper stuff cause that sounds really cool and had no idea that stuff existed.
New synths I think are kinda useful for anyone starting music production so I don’t want to dismiss them as I remember when I started 4 years ago Ableton lacked a decent synth with a clean user interface (I got really overwhelmed and ended up buying expensive VSTs).
What *does* scare me is they’re seemingly going down the route of unity where that had a really healthy App Store and the best features on the App Store would be bought out and then officially made part of unity; while this was a great thing for stability; often there weren’t any new features added to those tools per update (as most ended up being bug fixes). And while stability is important - I’d much rather have the choice of 20 decent but imperfect tools vs 1 perfect one.
I think it’s important that people vote with their wallets tho and I definitely think there could have been a few more at launch features. I tend to download all the new m4l stuff anyway so hopefully there’ll be a few more things without the year.
Fair agreed i hope the sounds improve that is such a good point
Yes its not about "Live" performance . I moved from Logic X for the possibilities of live perfomance, there are things I'd wish they'd do to make it better for guitarists and instumentalists. Love the DAW but totally agree, we don't need more synths.
Well said! Stem separation is such a pain in the neck! And I am an user since Live 8
I think stem separation is interesting. Curious what in particular you'd use it for?
@@allancerf9038 when I want to export a project to wavs. I need to export track by track manually if I want each to be affected by what I have in the master channel. It's a pain.
thank you to say it out loud ! not exiting... but for me NKS support would be great, cause yes I have never used ableton synth or sounds like you say because they are mediocre and I would like my synth to be routed straight away without using maschine inside ableton
I agree 100% to what you're saying. Ableton Live, as an instrument for playing live, has not evolved in a long time and, as you say, interesting live performes are technical geniouses that need to implement workarounds even to achieve simple and obvious behavior. I perform live improvising electronic music and there are too many simple things that are hard to do.
For instance, one is taking a snapshot of a the current state, then moving knobs (for a drop for instance) and getting back to a previous state. another one is combine the arrangement view with the session view, to switch on stage from a prearranged live set to live looping (improvising) back and forth.
Ableton evolves for production, which is ok, but every other daw is doing that. All the "new" features for producing are already present in other daws, plugins or hardware. So those are only catch ups.
Is there finally an internal MIDI channel routing? If not, what's the point of the upgrade?
I agree totally about the lack for performing live. I also was hoping for simpler, more intuitive tools. When I see artists, like yourself, live loop, I always think that I just need to put the time in (which I do still need to do) to get close to where you and others are at. But it is good to hear that you also think Ableton could, and need to, offer more for live performers.
I am also very disappointed they are offering no discount on the non-standalone Push. Why? I was thinking I would finally spring for Push (I currently use a Novation Launchpad Pro) but I am offended they are only discounting the standalone, which I have no interest in. Puzzling to not consider their entire customer base.
All that said I am still looking forward to 12 since I, at least for now, am sticking with Ableton. I hope the browser features exceed expectations, it seems workflow in general will be improved, and I appreciate the new features for arrangement view.
Always enjoy your videos. Your straightforward honesty is a breath of fresh air!
I was honestly a little disappointed too. What I REALLY wanted was to be able to freeze and print groups because without that it makes it pretty much impossible to work on the same session w someone as a team unless they have all the same plugins. And the biggest feature that’s still missing is being able to save backwards compatible sessions so that anyone on any Live version can open a session. The fact that so many other daws have these basic features and Ableton won’t for at least another 3 years makes me feel like I’m playing w a little toy program and not actually using a pro Daw 🤡
which program do you recommend to use to edit music? @taetro
Very good and logical points.New strong live performance tools are more than welcome in Ableton.
I agree with most thoughts, it seems to get more complex in some regards and less hands-on.
Yes thank you!!! We want looping tools! Loopy pro on iOS is dope and coming to MacOS. If he gets the midi looping right that might be the stop gap for me. But it would be much better if Ableton made it all in one. And totally agree about the sounds! Like give us some better sound packs already. There is some cool stuff but we've heard it for years at this point.
Most of the friends and artists I know produce in Ableton, and not a single one of them use it in session view, so enhancement of the live performance aspect of the daw probably isn’t a huge demand, at least from some communities. Maybe more of us would use session view if was easier and more flexible though, so I’m not gonna say it’s a bad suggestion to have some bigger improvements there
An Ableton live 12 to me would be something that makes it super easy to mix your songs you make so you perform them. Like track quantization and bpm matching how a CDJ would but the Ableton way that moves everyone over to that instead of pioneer 👌
I'm happy producers are getting more toys, but I agree. I bought Live over Bitwig because it's more live performance friendly, yet there's so much more they could do.
- DJ controller support - let me select clips and scratch with them or add cue points on the fly. Control multiple tracks per deck allowing easy stem control. Might win over Traktor users.
- Let me create mapping curves for midi assignments. FL had this in the 2000s already.
- How am i supposed to use the groove pool on stage? Let me set global groove/quantize settings per track so I can record into grooves on the fly.
- Someone else mentioned regions for live performances. In Reaper they are also handy for batch rendering, as well as for quick song rearrangement. It's weird that Live hasn't prioritised this.
- IMO, Live Standard should br everything a producer from another daw needs for live performance, including Max and the performance pack.
DJ controller support SHOULD be a thing but it isn't. I try to add scratching into my shit all the time but the process to get the same effect just ain't there.
@@xmus4023 I wish I could scratch, but mostly I just miss the immediacy of a DJ controller - being able to load and grid stuff without using a mouse, and add/jump to cue points instantly, not at the next bar (immediate while still having quantize on).
Traktor makes me so upset, because it's popular among house music DJs and producers, and NI makes plugins for producers, yet Traktor doesn't have a VST, or Rewire, or a master EQ, and Ableton Link sync sounds terrible (audio quality degrades when Link is on). Virtual DJ has more robust Link support and a parametric EQ, not to mention variable beat grids. Ableton Live could be the best of both worlds if they wanted it to be.
Well said T
There is an audience that is excited about something new, like those who switched from iphone 14 to iphone 15. A lot of youtubers can't get enough of ableton 12, and I'm one of the cautious ones. I didn't buy ableton 11 when it first came out, and this time it will be the same. Thanks Taetro, best wishes from Istanbul
Stems would have been a nice addition but like you said it’s nothing making want to update to 12
agree - I thought the new features didn't feel big enough to even warrant a whole new version. could've been 11.5
I don't use Ableton's stock sounds, and the search feature does not auto-tag your own library. A lot of the new additions are wasted on me and look more complicated to use than they need to be. I certainly don't need another built-in synth with TINY controls that I won't use.... Imho, the upgrade price is too high as well... Thanks for your honest thoughts on this! 😁👊
Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts. I hope the criticism gets to them.
Even tho I totally agree with you, I'm still excited about the update, as I'm upgrading from Live 10 -> 12.
This feels to me more like a "catch-up" update more than anything else. They made some really great UI improvements and core feature updates but they feel more to me like "how come it couldn't do that already" rather than "oh wow, what a new innovative solution."
Im with you on the sounds. Look at the packs that native instruments put out all the time compared to ableton. I never understood why ableton are so far behind in that area.
Still not regret buying standard and m4l separate.
Plenty of good synths out there...
I understand your disappointment with the lack of live features, but I think you are really understating Meld and Roar. I'm looking forward to the new UI and new devices, though I do agree the 12.0 update is a little bare, and wish there was a little more here.
I like how smooth they integrated midi generators/mutators into piano roll but felt disappointed arranger track, looping, global snapshots and performance view is just a park of some m4l pack.
I think they might have a bit of a "if it aint broke don't fix it" mentality in regards to the live section, along with a larger portion of Ableton users being focused on production. however I do feel that there is a lot of live performance potential with the new midi layout especially with the generative stuff.
Crazy as a person who has never used Ableton live for live performance I never knew that was the major selling point.
honest review..respect
I don't really agree, yeah most updates are small but I'm really happy with the gui changes, matters more to me than adding just more and more features.
Price is fair in my opinion, if you look at how much fun you can have with it. Life isn't free ;)
🥇🏆🎉
I would want stem separation or a step sequencer
I don´t use it for live but I don’t use it for mixing or mastering neither. So what is left.. Ableton Prod?