Why Vaapad would be WEAK Against Dooku - Star Wars Explained
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- NEW STAR WARS MERCH PAGE: bit.ly/TheStup...
For all sponsorship and business inquiries please contact:
Business: tmarvelouswave@gmail.com
Twitter: @StupendousWave
I believe all content used falls under the remits of Fair Use, but if any content owners would like to dispute this I will not hesitate to immediately remove said content. It is not my intent to in any way infringe on their content ownership. If you happen to find your art or images in the video please let me know and I will be glad to credit you.
End Song By WhiteSand "Eternity" • Whitesand - Eternity (...
Composer: Whitesand (Martynas Lau)
Year: 2017
Title: Eternity
Additional Music by WhiteSand: www.youtube.co...
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
Bandicam: whitesand.band...
Additional Music Terminus by: Scott Buckley
Released under CC-BY 4.0.
www.scottbuckley.com.au
Terminus: • 'Terminus' [Epic Cinem...
For a Sith Lord, Dooku never really acted like one. Yes, he was evil, calculating, and ruthless; but he never really had that dark side rage.
He probably does, but focuses it as a calm laser beam that doesn't zig-zag. Dooku is a genuine sword, while Maul is a hammer or a beating stick.
The face he makes when he wounds Obi Wan in AOTC proves your statement incorrect.
@@poseidon5003That, and the fact that he was going to kill an unarmed Obi-Wan.
@@poseidon5003I would have to say I disagree personally. He was ruthless but not angry if someone had a face that screamed he he he I’m wiiiniiing that’s different then anger, I might be wrong this is just my perspective but he was quit level headed compared to other sith especially in prequels, the angriest version of him we saw was clone wars dooku and even then he was still extremely level headed and more frustrated and passive aggressive then angry witch suits his saber style.
Dooku’s actions led to the estimated deaths of 100 billion life forms. This is basically fictional Holocaust denial as far as I’m concerned
Dooku is well aware of Vapaad and what his weaknesses would be against it.
I still struggle deciding who would win here…..
@@S0L12D3 I would give the edge to Dooku myself. Mace is overly powerful but I think he falls victim to Dooku's Dunmock and his skill with a saber matches Yoda
@@LordVader.66 im pretty sure that in legends somewhere dooku and mace sparred and dooku won. But I don’t think in canon that dooku was stronger than mace by the time he left the order. It would be interesting to see George Lucas speak about it
@@S0L12D3 him and Yoda seemed to be on par. So you would have to place Mace above Yoda
@@LordVader.66 dooku and Yoda on par??? I don’t agree with that. Dooku fled and fled cheaply by distracting Yoda.
And you have to think about it like this. Anakin defeated Dooku, obi wan defeated anakin…. Yoda had to fight palpatine because obi wan was not strong enough. Yet obi wan WAS strong enough to defeat anakin, who defeated Dooku. Dooku was definitely not on par with Yoda
Dooku is too level-headed and precise, he'd be able to handle Vaapad because he wouldn't submerse himself in the darkness so deep for Vaapad to feed off.
Vaapad is based on Juyo and Juyo is one of the most dangerous lightsaber styles.
@@DeathScepter And?
@@mikhailthegreatestdragon3627 and Mace wouldn't have to use Vaapad to defeat Dooku... he's done way MORE with the Force than Dooku ever could...only think Dooku has that Mace doesn't is his Sith lighting and the very moment he uses it would be enough for Mace to end it quickly
@@AndreMiller-ku9xy Why are you tagging me lol, I'm asking the other dude what Juyo has to do with here. It's already confirmed Dooku smacks Juyo wielders around just fine, so it's irrelevant.
@@mikhailthegreatestdragon3627 Vapaad is not weak against Dooku because it is based on Juyo.
It's true. Dooku kept his emotions under control. He held many Jedi beliefs. I think Dooku would win. He was extremely experienced,extremely skillful. He knew perfectly where to strike and when. Tactician. I don't think Windu could use Vapaad on me. There's no ground to hold. It would be weak. Great holocron as always :) May the Force be with you too. Have a nice day too :)
Lol
I love how both characters complement their respective actors perfectly. I bet you could replace nearly every mention of Windu and Dooku with Samuel L. Jackson and Christopher Lee and the video would still make sense.
SLJ: "I'VE HAD IT! WITH THESE MUTHAFUKKING SNAKES! IN THIS MUTHAFUKKING PLANE!"
Sir Christopher: 🍸
"This made me say 'what' so many times that Samuel L Jackson shot me"
I always love videos that give Dooku the appreciation he deserves. He's so underrated.
Outside of that I'd really like to see more videos about bounty hunters especially the most underappreciated one in my opinion Jango Fett.
It's a common misconception that Vaapad is weak if it isn't channelling the opponents darkness. Some go so far as to say it would be useless against someone like Yoda. But Windu didn't create it to fight Sith, it was to channel his own inner darkness, and turn it into a weapon of the light. That is the true strength of Vaapad. The fact that it uses the opponents darkness as well is just a convenient bonus.
Combined with “shatter point” it is very effective
This is a great point to the favor of windu but you have to consider dooku can only be beaten by the unpredictable or shear overpowering strength (yoda/Sidious). Dooku knows windu too well imo to be beaten in the one on one sabers only duel.
Anakin too sorry. The overpowering might of skywalker is on that list too.
Facts
@RCityStrolls That was the best star wars novel I've ever read.
The thing is Dooku need to be precise, cold and, control calm because its what Form 2 Makashi requires, or else Dooku cannot use Makashi to the fullest potential. His swings and stabs might be strong when using the dark side but it still used along with the precision of Makashi
I agree, Makashi doesn't channel emotion like form 7, actually the opposite, Makashi denies emotion. It's an intellectual form, relying on strategy and planning, and intense practice to predict opponents. The only advantage Windu has is the inherent unpredictability of Vaapad.
I beleive Mace could have beaten Dooku but he couldn't have relied solely on Vaapad.
Agreed
He wouldn't have had to use Vaapad on Dooku in a straight up lightsaber duel or even a skill match in the Force....Mace was far stronger in the Force than Dooku.....and consequently, the very moment Dooku used Sith lightening would have been enough to ground Mace into that technique and Dooku would be finished
It really could go either way.
If it’s AOTC I would give it to Dooku albeit by literally skin of the teeth.
ROTS I would give it to Windu but it would still be the second greatest challenge he ever faced(Sidious obviously being #1)
A lot of people are ignoring the fact that Mace was also a master of Shatterpoint!
Shatterpoint would have been his best tool in such a contest, and even then it would be a super close fight since Shaterpoint is great for spotting openings and weaknesses in an opponent's form, but Dooku's form is so refined that it'd be really hard to find such an opening. Of course Mace is also way younger, so he could just outlast Dooku who would get tired pretty fast. Provided Mace isn't careless, he can probably take this.
I think there’s three questions being asked here.
Dooku vs Vaapad as a style.
Dooku vs a Vaapad expert.
Dooku vs Mace.
Dooku vs Vaapad as a style is a form analysis and Dooku’s assessment was that Vaapad was ‘sloppy’ a fair assessment from someone who preferred more precise styles over Form7s more erratic movements and seemingly wild swings.
Dooku vs a Vaapad expert is an interesting question, there were only three Vaapad experts, one plain left the order, one depending on canon died a vegetable or a redeemed hero after falling to the dark side and Mace. The thing is Vaapad experts dabble in the dark side and while an amazing duellist the other thing Dooku seems gifted in is provocation and I think he could quite easily push two of the experts over the edge and into the dark side.
Finally we get Dooku vs Mace and styles become irrelevant because Mace is just that much better a duelist than Dooku. Dooku was an amazing duelist himself but he straight up ran from Mace, not from Vaapad, Dooku ran from Mace.
Dooku was better than Mace, he was renowned not just for being a great duelist, but the Jedi’s BEST. Dooku would defeat Windu, but with EXTREME difficulty.
Vapaad wouldn’t yield and advantage against Dooku, since he doesn’t rely on the dark side as much.
As for the other users:
Sora Bulq used Vapaad against Dooku and lost.
Quinlan Voss would get squashed against Dooku
Depa Billaba (in legends) was better at Vapaad than Windu. Depa was however banned from using the form after she attacked Windu on Horuun Kal. Even if Depa failed at using Vapaad, she would transition to Juyo. Depa would have a good chance against Dooku, but it’s not a guarantee.
I want to point out: Darth Sidious used Juyo against Windu and lost (he might have thrown the fight). Even if Sidious threw this fight, the fact that it was believable means it was possible.
Depa Billaba used Juyo (following Vapaad) against Windu and won.
This makes a lot of sense, especially considering Dooku rarely, if ever, showed the Sith Eyes that Dark Side users are well known for
I always said this. I doubt it would work against dooku and his calm fighting technique
There is no debate Mace fought Dooku and Dooku ran away if that tells you anything. Star Wars Adventures Comic #10 tales of villainy
So what if vaapad is weak against dooku ? People act as if mace didn’t master all the other forms and force wise he has much more power than dooku. Plus shatterpoint and feat wise mace never lost a fair 1v1 duel ex mother talzin, harl , sora bulq, asajj ventress , general grievious, quinlan vos, jango fett and oh I don’t know the most powerful sith of all time you know dookus master 🌝. Mace gets too downplayed guy was quite literally the Michael Jordan of jedi I’m terms of duelling.
Basically everything was that was just sending this video is bullshit. None of this is canon, and this video is a continuation of a long-standing tradition of not understanding what Mace windu form seven was people need to read the Matt Stover book shatter point, and understand that Mase faces a dark side, or that is compared to the emperor, in terms of how deep in the darkness he was. Suffice to say, Mass does not get any sort of him and his battles against kar vastor.
The novel in question is no longer considered Canaan, but it was originally part of the specifically Canon prequel media project that was overseen very closely by George Lucas. I consider those prequel novels to be some of the best material in terms of knowing what George’s original vision for all of this was. And form seven is not in anyway, a redirection of the other persons, power directly correlated. That is an entire bastardization and misunderstanding. Mace created the form to channel his own inner darkness not someone else’s.
idk, Mace Windu without his active vaapad could still best Dooku(just barely). not to mention he would use his shatterpoint to determine a weakness
Mace would wipe the floor with Dooku vapaad or not.
Windu also used shatter point ability to see the weakness in in anything including objects and of course opponents a example of this when he was fighting palps he hit the window and it shattered on contact because mace saw the weakness in the window and hit it there. That being said windu would see the weakness in dookus and win.
Form V Djem So seems to be the perfect counter to Form II Makashi. If you use a longsword against somebody with a fencing saber you're gonna go right through them
Yes but they both use lightsabers that probably weight about the same, anakin isn't using a heavier, longer sword.
@@pullo5518actually no Anakins lightsaber is actually heavier than most and specifically built to allow him to strike very hard with. Dookus is built for one hand use and thus makes it hard for him to get leverage. A more apt comparison would be Dooku uses a one handed curved saber while Anakin has a full size long sword.
Mace easily beat Palpatine so i don't think Count Dooku would had stand a chance against him not to mention Mace also beat General Grivous not only that he crush him
Windu beat Palpatine explicitly because he was drawing on Palpatine's strong connection to the dark side an advantage he wouldn't have with Dooku, also Dooku held his own against Anakin & Obi-Wan only to immediately after fight to a stand still with Yoda, it would be a hard fought battle regardless but I would give it to Dooku.
This was very interesting! I might be very far off were.. but it seems to me, the way Vapaad is described, it reflects the power given by the user back at him, which, in my mind essentially means that - Dooku is fighting himself, all the passion, all the calm, all the technique and skill. Including the amount, high or not of dark side emotion. If Sidious is 100% dark side passion, and therefore Vapaad has 100% potential and effectiveness, then the 50% Dooku gives will still be 100% reflected ? Or am i to understand that the amount of blade skill, tactics and reading of ones opponent comes second in line when considering Vapaad ? So Mace relies more on his own personal skill when facing opponents that are not as enveloped in the dark side?
Sadly, it's not described how exactly it works (basically just "its THE FORCE") but I assume, that the Vapaad user takes the role of a lightning rod, re-routing the dark side through their mind back at the opponent. Which would explain why it's so hard to learn since you have to channel the dark side without actually using it. Let me explain:
Vapaad in it's core follows the idea to use your opponents' strength in the dark side against themselve. In other words, the more angry, brutal and violent your opponent gets, the more effective this technique becomes, because it basically "feeds" upon the dark side energy. A user of Vapaad opens up for their own desire to win and the enjoyment of fighting, while simultaneously drawing on the same feelings from the opponent. Both sides will continue to get stronger in their desires to win, basically creating a feedback loop where the increasing reliance of the dark force user on their anger and other negative emotions strengthen the Vapaad user, until they get careless and either leave an opening or succumb to the erratic fighting style of the form. Those style of attacking, comprised of seemingly random attacks and moves, is the reason why Dooku describes the form as "sloppy".
Regarding your initial question: it is not as easy as "Opponent uses dark side, so Vapaad is strong". And of course there are limits to this, in Episode 3 we see Windu clearly struggle to keep up with Sidious. The fact that Sidious can't simply overpower Windu makes him ever more angry. And this in turn just plays into the effect of Vapaad. But it only helps to keep up the status quo. Windu can keep up, but not really beat him.
Dooku on the other hand relies on his years and years of experience in the use of a lightsaber instead of just the dark side of the force, with form 2 being specifically designed as THE dueling form. It aims to keep the user grounded and away from getting caught up in emotions, that would potentially blind them in a fight. So there are really no passion, no strong emotions vapaad could draw from. However, the greatest weakpoint is that form 2 enhances Pride and arrogance, traits that Dooku really struggled with. But so does Windu, so I really would call it a draw, if neither of them makes a grievous mistake.
I came for the great thumbnail. Your theory has no ground however.
If I remember correctly, Dooku was 2nd only to Yoda in the Jedi Order when it came to lightsaber combat. Plus, Dooku was aware of Vaapad as Mace Windu developed it while Dooku was still a Jedi. I don't think he would even need to channel his darker emotions to be able to keep pace with and possibly even defeat Mace Windu. He'd just need to remain his cold, calculated self.
I never understand why windu never use djem so against dooku when he was master of the form in his own rigth
@@shadow-qp2nsBecause Maces use of form five was not Anakin nor even Plo Koon level for that matter yet Anakin was the only form five user to beat Dooku and Dooku despite his dislike of Anakin said that Anakin was the best Djem So stylist he ever seen Mace even of TPM Era was the top form seven styler yeah.
Dooku is the most underrated character in Star Wars
He was so elegant, so cool, so clever and cunning
He's the furthest thing from "underated".
Seriously. How is he "underated"?
@@poseidon5003 so many people, in my experience at least, so if you disagree then fair enough !, barely know him or appreciate his character, he’s always overshadowed by maul or Vader or grievous
@@ahsokaxtan0 umm...no. LOL. He's the literal separatist leader. As far as the rest of the SW Galaxy at the time is concerned, he's the BIG BAD. He orchestrated the execution on Geonosis, and is a full on Sith lord. Holy crap man. He's not underrated at all.
@@poseidon5003 like I say I don’t underestimate what he does, he’s my second fave character, just in my experience casual Star Wars fans barely know him and barely any would put them in their top 5, but like I say that’s just in my experience
I think any fight between Dooku and Windu would look very much like the fight between Sidious and Yoda... only scaled down a bit. Dooku and Windu know each other pretty well, and nearly everything about how the other fights. Dooku faced off against Yoda and didn't really loose (though he didn't really win either)... and Windu faced off against Sidious as well and only sort of won, but exactly if he really won or if Sidious let him win for the benefit of Skywalker to see is still an open question. They both even thought the same of Skywalker as well, so I agree that Mace's Vaapad would not trip Dooku up, but force lightning wouldn't be a problem for Windu either, and he is a lot younger. However, I also see Windu may be more easily turned to the dark side than others... since he even knows it is in him (hence his need for Vaapad). Let us recall that Windu beheaded Jango even after disarming him (long before Order 66) in front of Boba, and Dooku was the compassionate one there. So much like Anakin taking out his anger on the Tuskin Raiders, Windu took out his anger on Jango.
I do think Mace, being younger, could still outlast Dooku even if Vapaad is ineffective, its just a matter of holding out long enough for Dooku's age to start taking its toll. Though if Mace makes even one careless little mistake, Dooku will take him down. Shatterpoint will help Mace a fair bit too, even if Dooku's form is near perfect, if he likewise makes a minor error, Shatterpoint will find that opening and Mace will take it. That's why this is such a crazy match up in the first half, its anyone's game.
That why if they were to fight there duel would last hours instead mins because they are so evenly matched would come down to who made slightest mistake first
I like the way both of you guys think because I see other comment saying the other would win no doubt (mostly mace windu) when makashi and shatter point relying on the other’s mistakes and here’s why I think why dooku might’ve lose to anakin since dooku recently join the dark side he’s body been weakened because the dark side of the force feast of your life and he’s body was more adept in the light side of the force the dark side was probably killing him faster unlike palpatine who was more adept in the dark side
i see dooku getting overwhelmed, form 7 is unpredictable and on top of that its a variant mace himself created, in their primes which is mace as of rots and dooku as of aotc or rots, i believe mace would dog walk him nearly every time.
@@ThomasSpikes-sg3yeIt would not last that long. Mace form is built on overwhelming speed. Ending the fight fast with an unpredictable offense. Circumstances would determine who wins.
In a way, I feel like it’s similar to why Mace couldn’t kill *Grievous* during the battle of Coruscant. Grievous and Dooku duel based on pure physical ability, overwhelming power in the case of Grievous, cold precision in the case of Dooku. In both cases, a major advantage of Vaapad would barely come into play. Grievous didn’t have the Force at all, and Dooku preferred to fight level-headed and calm. Very cool breakdown.
I mean Windu was still getting the better of grievous in their duel but grievous was starting to copy Vapaad and Windu realized if grievous obtained Vapaad he would be unstoppable. One thing people don’t realize is Vapaad doesn’t affect the users skill with a blade and instead boost force attributes like in windu’s duel with Sidious, Sidious was extremely faster then mace however with Vapaad it equaled their stats and not their skills. Mace Windu is skills with a blade still very much surpass the like of dooku and Mace Windu was equal to Sidious in skill with a blade. As stories of young mace have said, a young mace was able to be 50/50 with dooku in combat and has beaten him in training on a few occasions. Then you have the entire clone wars for Windu to get better and unlike Dooku, Mace had years to get better while dooku really was at a stand still because of his age. So the real question is who is more powerful in the force between dooku and Mace.
@@someguynamedsteve3753 See, this is the kind of thing that reminds me that serious fans are way more knowledgable than Disney. We actually care.
@@someguynamedsteve3753Mace never beat Dooku in saber combat while Dooku was a Jedi still in Legends even by TPM Circa it ended with either them tying or Dooku winning after a good long battle and Mace was already THE form seven user at the time as Dooku was THE form two user of that point yeah.
The reason Mace is the only one to not be tainted by the dark side using Vapad, is because of the Shater Point ability that was rare, (as in batty meditation rare) only few Jedi were known to possess such a rare ability. That’s my take on it
Good video. I'm writing a story involving a Sith user of Ju-yo and a Jedi user of Makashi. I've always been interested in how such a fight would end
Form II might be ancient, but the way Dooku mastered it, nobody else has even come close, as far as I can tell. Lots of Sith Lords seemed to blend 3 or 4 styles together, or simply learn all 7, but Dooku's commitment to Makashi alone made him extremely dangerous, even to people like Mace, Sidious, and even Yoda. Count Dooku is my favorite Dark Jedi, and probably the single greatest individual to touch the blade, in my opinion.
But let's say Dooku only takes maybe, 5.5 out of 10 duels between he and Mace, because Windu does still have the ever rare and elusive Shatter Point, allowing him to effectively match Dooku in alot of scenarios, taking the remaining 4.5 out of 10 duels between he and Tyranus. And I think it's safe to say that Mace could switch to other forms of sabre combat, most likely Juyo itself, keeping the Count on his toes. Mace is also like 10+ years younger, having been a Jedi Master since he was like 28, I think. Great match-up regardless. Haha.
Yoda described Dooku and Mace as both hands of the Jedi. Neither of them beat Yoda in sparring and Dooku and Mace had a decent relationship for a while so they rarely fought. I think Mace would be able to realize that he couldn’t get enough energy from Dooku to make Vaapad fully effective so he would certainly use other styles and not just the one. Mace mastered all 7 forms so more than likely if he used Form V Djem So, he would probably get the upper hand. Djem So would make use of Mace’s strength which he had over Dooku. Dooku had the precision but how Anakin overpowered him with that form, I feel like Mace could do the same. I think it would be extremely close though.
Mastering all forms does not confer perfect skill in them. Anakin is almost certainly a better form V duelist then windu, just as yoda is with form IV and obi wan form III. To top it off, anakin is far stronger in the force itself which improves the power and speed of his strikes to a greater degree than windu. Add that to the fact personal matchups play a bigger roll for vapaad users and windu finds himself in a real challenge. The reason I would give dooku the advantage IMO is that he has bested windu before, and has only grown more powerful. He was on track to be master of the order before he left, then became a sith who was only beaten by the CHOSEN one. Even yoda fighting him when he was fatigued could not actually beat him one on one, and windu definitely can't beat yoda. Also as a side thing, I don't think sidious was as skilled with the blade as people get on. He was carried hard by his crazy powers which is why he was countered so hard by vapaad and also why he gave up on using a lightsaber when fighting yoda
@@whiteerdydude I know Mace isn’t as powerful as Anakin but I still give it to Mace. Dooku was not about to beat Yoda in that fight. He made the thing drop down to kill Obi-Wan and Anakin cause he knew he could make a get away cause Yoda would stop to save them. Ya Yoda was starting to breathe hard but that doesn’t mean he was gonna lose to Dooku. Mace wasn’t perfect in other forms but he mastered them all soo he is definitely competent enough to change up his form to cover for his weaker Vaapad form when it comes to fighting Dooku. And ya Palp’s was better in the dark side rather than lightsaber combat…. But Dooku would still lose to him in a 1v1 soooo…. I think it’d be close for sure but I think Mace would come out on top. Even if he had to move into Form VII Juyo to do it and turn to the dark side.
Plo Koon defeated Yoda in lightsaber combat, lol.
@@jackalmighty3840 He did and he was the only one to do so but that is cause his fighting style countered Yoda’s main one. Doesn’t mean he would beat Mace or Dooku. And he only beat Yoda once…. 1/10 fights Plo wins ok that’s cool for sure but 9/10 Yoda would beat him.
@@bloodchron1880 Yes, but I'd think that in beating Yoda once, he had the potential to do it again and gradually best Yoda for good. He was Yoda's only loss. Maybe this is a game of rock-paper-scissors. I should think that Dooku counters Mace quite well, as he has his expert opinion that Vaapad was clumsy, and this is coming from someone who was considered the best Jedi duelist in the entire history. Yoda's form 4 (was it?) drew on the force to supplement his old age. But if we're going on basic duelist skills, Dooku is unbeatable.
I’m torn here.
On one hand, Dooku is a Form 2 Master, the Dueling Form. It’s said to be the most suited for dueling against Lightsaber wielding opponents. Plus, his darkness just isn’t as powerful as someone like Sidious’s.
On the other hand, would Mace even need that much of a Vaapad boost to take down Dooku? Given what we know, Sith Lightsabers are inherently dark in nature, considering the bleeding crystals. So by that logic wouldn’t merely clashing with a Sith Lightsaber be enough to at least Start the Vaapad battery up, so to speak?
At that point, I feel Dooku would ironically fall back on his Jedi teachings of controlling his inner darkness, trying to make it so it leaks out as little as possible, probably in an attempt to force the duel into purely a duel of blades.
Then the question is does Windu have what it takes to out duel a Jedi Master versed in Form 2 Lightsaber combat, the form specifically made for dueling, plus Dooku has the advantage of his Curved Lightsaber, giving him certain Angles of attack that Mace doesn’t have access to, while also making some harder to do.
Dooku is no stranger to fighting multiple opponents at once, even when they have multiple blades. So I have to believe that Dooku would be able to handle Mace in a 1v1.
I honestly cannot decide, I feel like they both have an equal chance of winning, and it may come down to who can swing his lightsaber better.
Also even before Mace mastered Vaapad he was the ultimate Juyo User even more skilled at that form then Maul And Sidious even by TPM Periods yet not once was he able to best Dooku in Legends Or Canon it either ended with them being equals or Dooku the slight superior and Vaapad would not work on Sith like Dooku, Revan, And Traya since they act less on emotions when fighting usually yeah. And as far as force powers go in terms of telekenesis, force shields, force barriers, force reflexes, force healing, beast control, telepathy, tutiminus, and battle meditation Dooku surpassed Mace and every other Jedi in those force powers except for Yoda he had a the third highest potential in the order around TPM Circa after Anakin And Yoda with Mace having the fourth highest. Mace is no joke in any way but compared to Yoda, Dooku, Sids, And Plagueis in terms of force powers besides shatterpoint and most force augmentation abilities he would be overwhelmed by them if they had a force tug of war yeah.
I do not believe Dooku could comment on the style since he never truly saw Vapaad. He only saw what Sorq Bulq presented, which Mace stated was Junyo.
We have an answer to this question in the canon 2020 Star Wars Comic Duel on Ridley between Dooku and Mace 1-on-1 in 20 BBY. Vapaad was completely ineffective against Dooku. Also, the match was a draw, though it appears Dooku was notably less pressed than Sidious was in his duel. It was a rather casual draw.
Count Dooku would probably " school" any other vaapad user but Master Windu would be different.... Mace essentially took Dooku's seat on the Council.... whether that " Hate/ anger" of that betrayal would tip the scales enough in Mace's favor.... I don't know.... Great topic Guy's 👏 👍
In Legends Mace only took Dookus spot because Dooku left the order before that Dooku was second in the order only behind Yoda as a close second in rank, current power levels, knowledge, mastery, education, and variety of powers with the force while Mace was tied for the most part the other handful of times ended with Dooku winning slightly in there saber matches in the temple but never being bested by anybody but Yoda if only by a little number with Dooku around before, during, and after the TPM Era as a lightsaber duelist yeah.
I'm in the belief that Dooku would tire too soon leaving himself vulnerable or kill Windu fast.
Was Dooku tired when he defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, then anakin again who was duel wielding, then Yoda? You really think Mace would tire him more than those 4 opponents combined?
@@tylerrassi4148 Dooku did in fact get tired. Yoda is the only one of those opponents whose equal to or greater than Windu as a swordsman, especially at that time. Windu was the master of the order for a reason.
Yep. I can imagine the fight ending very quickly, one way or another. Essentially the opposite of Mace vs Sidious or Obi-wan vs Anakin.
Dooku would defeat windu, his makashi mastery would be to efficient, also dooku never fully embraced the dark side, so vaapad would not be to efficient against dooku. Yoda was a greater duelist then windu.
@pullo so is anakin a better duelist then mace before he ran down on dooku? You have to show that before you say dooku wins.
You can tell when its Ai art, because Ai doesnt seem to know we only have 5 fingers on each hand. (Not including the 6 fingered man from the princess bride) but mace windu in the thumbnail has an extra pinky.
Do a video on who is a more powerful Sith Lord Darth Revan or Darth Vader another video idea Did Qui gon want Anakin Skywalker to turn to the dark side another idea is Was is the Will of the Force for Anakin Skywalker to fall to dark side and destroy the Jedi not just the Sith Why is kylo ren so weak compared to Anakin Skywalker or Luke Skywalker
In martial arts of any kind, styles make fights. Tommy Hears destroyed Roberto Duran in 2 rounds. Marvin Hagler struggled to decision Duran over 15. But Hagler destroyed Hearns. Et cetera and so on. It's all in how styles match up. Dooku was very, very powerful and had flawless technique. But he was a Sith who fought like a Jedi, coolly and dispassionately, while Windu was a Jedi who fought like a Sith. I have a feeling Windu's fury might have overwhelmed him, as Anakin's did.
How powerful was Darth Vader politically and in the dark side of the force as well as Sith Alchemy and and what was the power Darth Sidious used in the world between world
thing is....dooku was aged...and wasnt mace a master of the blade, not only form 7, hence this micro observation my be flawed on the macro scale
So the answer is basically that Dooku's an evil Dr. Jekyll rather than a full on Mr. Hyde.
Yet as Anankin showed. Why bother with technique when bludgeoning Dooku to death is more than enough.
...Windu's thumbnail outfit is EVERYTHING. I NEED IT. Possibly the best samurai/jedi mashup design I've ever seen.
Love the vids man
OH you should make a video about how powerful oppo ransis, Coleman kacj, yarel poof, like all these less know jedi you should make a video about how powerful they were or about their lives
I think it would be very close. Windu slight edge as it can also channel his darkness not just the oppenent.
I think doku could effectively counter Mace. Because duku is a master of the light as well as a dark practitioner. I see doku relying on his Jedi skills until Mase has flagged in his offense then goding Mase into taping the dark side and turning.
Here's a topic idea; Saber forms (including variants) and how well they match up against each other
Mace windu would win. Many forget Windu was a battle master which meant all forms of combat but specialist of vaapad. Mace has a claimer mind then dooku. Mace learned at a early age the lost to be had if they acted without thought is how he was bestowed his hacurn crystal. If you read shatterpoint and then episode three the true understanding of how mace felt when he saw Anikin as the shatterpoint it shows him how he doesn't see the full picture again which causes his death
Windu’s shatter point ability is what would ultimately get him the W over Dooku not Vaapad. This is also why many say Windu is too OP lol.
And even the way Windu died barely passed the smell test (considering the fact that his Shatterpoint abilities should warned him to take Anakin more seriously. I guess you can assume the Dark SIde obscured his vision and provided the opening he needed.
Dude how u just leave out shatterpoint??
Keep in mind mace did master other forms of lightsaber combat to fall back on even if vaapad wouldn't work on dooku to extent it did sidious
He did not Master other forms he just familiarized with them he is not THE Ataru Master Yoda is nor THE Shien/Djem So User Anakin is in order to beat Dooku in a pure or near pure lightsaber duel in Legends you have to be The best of the best with Form Four=Yoda Or the highest caliber of Form Five(Anakin And Luke) or THE Top Tier Jar Kai Specialist of Sidious maybe none of which Windu is but he is the ultimate form seven Master even by TPM of both varieties Juyo And Vaapad yeah.
@@matthewmann8969I think you don’t understand what master means. Being a master of something means you can perfectly understand and do all the techniques. It doesn’t mean you are the best fit for the strengths of the technique or that nobody is a better fit than you. Windu can do any form perfectly. He just prefers to use 7 cause his technical limits in that one are slightly higher than his in other forms.
I would like to see what if Dooku killed Sidious
Annakin's style was "Kinetic" which is how he beat Dooku. IIRC Juyo was described as kinetic and randomized. A kinetic fighter versus A finesse fighter ................... opposite extremes.
Dooku and Windu actually dueled in the comics. On Boz Pity in Legends and on Ridlay in Canon. Both times Dooku fled but neither opponent gained an edge. Whether or not Windu used Vaapad I don't know. Would've loved to have seen them fight on screen.
Mace Windu was using Vaapad against Dooku both times.
In The Boz Pity Battle Dooku fled not because of Mace himself but because reinforcements on Maces side would arrive in a few minutes if he stayed such as Obi Wan And Anakin and there clone legions yeah.
Ovaltine would beat Dooku + Windu beat Ovaltine= Windu beats Dooku. Easy math.
Ovaltine?
@@pedrovargas2181 Emperor Ovaltine. Dude is old.
Apparently there was a source in the novels (ROTS) implying that without the amp granted to Anakin via Palpatine's encouragement, Dooku would have ended up besting Anakin in that duel.
It was only through an Amp granted to Anakin which tilted the scales enough that Dooku was overwhelmed in that fight.
I don't see Mace Windu's base abilities (without vaapad amp) strong enough that it'd outright outmatch Dooku's own. After all, even someone like Ventress managed to duel with windu, at least for a while.
The only reason Ventress lived was cause of plot armom
Also, I’ve heard the theory about palpatine amping anakin, however I’ve never actually seen any evidence that the case is true…. The only thing I’ve seen in the novel was that sideous wanted obi wan to be incapacitated (which happened) so that anakin and dooku could have a 1v1. Initially dooku was taking it easy on anakin, however, after realizing he was outmatched, he eventually was defeated
What was Lukes view on Dooku?
I think Dooku edges out Mace in almost every area, except youth. His fighting style is more specialized for lightsaber duelling (Makashi) and Dooku was potentially the greatest Makashi user of all time. His force abilities seem to be slightly better than Mace too, telekinesis & force lightning, not to mention he has superior knowledge and experience (2nd behind only Yoda) when it comes to the art of war.
Top 5 duellists I think are:
1. Yoda & Dooku (tied)
2. Mace
3. Sidious
4. Anakin
5. Oni-wan
Top 5 force users I think are:
1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace
5. Anakin
Good analysis. This would be a fight for ages. I’m not sure who would win. But on subject, the dark side isn’t necessary for vaapad to be effective. Mace is a deadly duellist regardless of who he’s facing. You have to master all other forms, including form 2, to be effective at form 7.
Sidious mastered all 7 forms, but Dooku specialized in Makashi, so his mastery of that is in a greater degree. what little advantage Windu gains from vaapad, would be offset by Dooku's Makashi.
Wouldn't say.. "perfected" a TRULY "perfect" form woulda been SAFELY TRAINABLE to others. A critical failure for ANYONE supposed to be at the highest eschelons of Leadership of an Order that one of the Main components of IS TEACHING. Of which it's apparent Mace failed at. His form PERFECTED coulda been perfect for someone like Anakin. Had he refined it much as possible when it's flaws was exposed.
Depending on IF Dooku USED Darkness the Cardinal Sin of fighting Windu, or not, woulda determined if Tyannus had a chance or not.
Would be great fight, Dooku is one of my favorite combatants.
He is ice cold and so precise, if it Mace was in the hanger instead of Obi and Ani in AOTC the outcome would have been the same I feel. Blade to blade Dooku is just way to slick.
Hey Stupendous
Hows that Ulic qel Droma bio and power scaling Video coming along,
Your friend and patron
Samson 👍
What a duel it would be..
Would love to see Filloni make an animated What If... show. And have these duke it out and prove who was the superior duelist once and 4all
I like Dun Möch because it is basically just Jedi insult sword fighting. They say that Lando Calrissian could beat any Jedi practicing Dun Möch because he had a very good sense of humor and made clever self-depreciating jokes. One of his side gigs was selling holovid ads with clickbait titles like “This Smuggler Beats Away Dun Möch with One Simple Trick! The Jedi HATE him! Click here to find out why.” Oh, Lando, you sly dog 😏
Dooku's Lightning Isnt Definitely Weaker But Isnt That Mostly Cuz The Range. Dooku Always Shot like 20+Feet. Does That Make It Weaker
Both forms (Makashi, Vaapad) are polar opposites but either could equally demolish opponents in their own respective way. If they faced each other it would depend on what stage of time. If it was during EP2 then it would be evenly matched. During the encounter on the Geonosis platform Dooku chose not to directly engage the dangerous Jedi (Dooku was a master strategist and knew when he could win or not). During the clone wars Windu grew in both power and skill. By EP3 Dooku was 82, he would of put up a good fight but overtaken in the end against Windu at this stage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but once a Jedi switches over to Sith, doesn't any time they use the Force it's the Dark Side? If so, then when Darth Tyrannus (Dooku) uses the Force to augment his natural strength (which he would have to against Mace Windu), he'd be using the Dark Side, therefore aiding the use of Vaapad...making Mace the inevitable winner.
That’s why Dooku didn’t have the sith eyes: he could manage both light and dark without being consumed by either…think about that: BY EITHER
not too far into dark side
Not too loyal to the light
And his Padawan: the exemplary follower of the WILL of the Force….interesting huh?
Without the dark side and at that age. No chance. Remember who Mace windu is and the form he MASTERED BE CREATED THEE VARIANT. Remember that a Master must master all forms of lightsaber combat. Dooku did not master vapaad but mace had to master form 2. Dooku’s form is too slow.
Let's all say this out loud:
"JUST BECAUSE DOOKU USED FORM 2 DOESN'T MEAN HE WASN'T POWERED BY THE DARK SIDE WHOLE UTILIZING IT. HE'S A SITH, AFTER ALL"
Regardless djem and juyo aka strength based forms r Makashis weakness innately… juyo/vapaad being the strongest/most ferocious form… stands the best chance against his form and well if anakin could do it… then Ofcourse master windu could. Each blow would cause pain just like it did when he fought anakin except form 7 is 10x faster plus stronger. I don’t see him pulling it off. Not in windus prime anyway. Only is sparring in younger days.
@TheStupendousWave I was wondering something. Anakin Skywalker has great technological skills, is a rebel, wants to go out to protect the people of the galaxy and end slavery, and has affinity for Dark Side Abilities. By this definition, would Anakin have been better suited as a Jedi Sentinel rather than a Jedi Guardian?
Jedi Sentinels are often out and about in the galaxy protecti g the common folk, have several practical skills that compliment their Force and Lightsaber Abilities, and, in the case of the Jedi Shadows, have permission to use certain Dark Side Powers. These things all fit Anakin to a T. I would like to see a Video to that would look at the Star Wars Universe if he were a Sentinel!
Are you KIDDING me...Dooku was NOT "contending" with Yoda in lightsaber combat, Yoda wasn't even trying and was simply feeling Dooku out. When Yoda decided to get serious and let his former padawan know he fought well (meaning, he was about to get serious and kill Dooku), Dooku knew what was going to happen and thus he had to distract Yoda so he could escape. You continuously say Dooku evenly matched Yoda and are continuously wrong as there was nobody in the galaxy that could match Yoda with a lightsaber.
And why Shatterpoint wouldn't lol He beat Sidious, he'd beat Dooku. That's not saying Dooku is weak, at all, that's simply stating how bad ass Wingu was, and he's far from my favorite, though his color saber is.
Dooku’s technical skills with a lightsaber would overwhelm Windu’s raw power but Windu’s raw power would overwhelm Dooku’s Technical skill it would be an amazing Duel but 80 year old Dooku wouldn’t win but Dooku in his prime would easily beat Mace Windu in single combat
Match power vs power against a dark side opponent. Hmmm real gem of wisdom there. Even if I agreed with his prowess as a warrior, his sheer stupidity and blindness is what really killed him ( prob be brought back from the dead like everyone else that gets thrown off a cliff. Vaapad didn't seem to help him to much as he is quite easily disposed of. 900 years to become the leader and then mess it all up cause your arrogant. On top of all this (non Jedi) behavior. They were a council of fools as malgus said. Yoda barking just to get spanked trying to match sidious lightning. Then he scampers off after getting his ASsh handed to him.
If Vaapad can beat Palpatine then it can beat Dooku😂😂cased closed. Don’t overthink everything.
We should've gotten a duel between Windu and Dooku on screen! Very disappointing. Idk who would win.I personally think Dooku calls Vaapad "sloppy" because he's jealous of how powerful Mace Windu is.
In Legends while Mace was indeed powerful in terms of potential, current power levels, experience, knowledge, mastery, and so on it paled in comparison to Dooku both as a Jedi And Sith Yoda saw more potential in Dooku then he did in Mace and everyone else in the order except for himself and Anakin yeah.
It’s not just emotion, it’s the nature of the dark side itself which can’t be suppressed so even without emotion Vaapad would still work against the dark side within. 2nd Dooku would have lost to Sidious and Mace beat him. 3rd Dooku lost to Anakin and he wasn’t on Maces level. 4th Mace wasn’t chosen to be the head of the Jedi lightly, he and Dooku came up together so he wouldn’t depend solely on Vapaad anyway being an awesome duelist rivaling Yoda. Then there’s Shatter Points….yeah Mace would win.
Well Mace windu's Vappad would be as potent as Dooku's force lightning, if he attempts to do it, yet Dooku Likes Mace Windu in movie film and canon.
Vappad is basically all of those "inner energy created" from the user is powered-up and use to assist the actions of dueling/fencing, and Plus a bonus "inner energy of the opposite person'" is channeled like a super conductive loop and slam into the opponent's feelings like a waterbender or waterbomb splashing on them.
*Parrot looks at you with a friendly face* Also give a sparrow-sized parrot a heart shaped straw in a cup and they will do something fun and funny.
If you saw and believe Dooku had issue with Anakin power strokes and swings, why would it be different with Windu! Windu was about power blows and aggression in form 7! Windu was driving Sidious back with his power strikes based in physical strength not the force!
Mace was essentially the greatest fighter the Jedi had at the time of his death. Superior even to Sidious, and by extension, Yoda himself.
Dooku had a similar claim to fame when he was younger, but he is old, and as evidenced by his later (and final) duels with Anakin, he was beginning to falter in terms of his power and reflexes.
So if they had fought RotS-era, I have no doubt that Windu would claim victory, Vapaad or not.
I know this idea isn't satisfying to many, but I think a fight between any two great duelist (Windu, Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Anakin, etc) would come down to the particular aspects of that fight. The terrain, their emotions in the moment, their energy levels, whether one of them was ambushed or not.
I guess an easier way to put this is Windu could win on Wednesday and Dooku could win on Thursday depending on different factors.
If indeed it feeds off the raw emotion that comes from the dark side then vaapad against Dooku... The poor thing would starve to death...
Simply put, Dooku is the anti hero of sith and completely trumps Windu. I wonder if Dooku having dark force powers early on would have lead to mace using Vaapad against Dooku in their early on dual.
That would explain why Dooku saw it as sloppy. A lightsaber form being used against him trying to take advantage of something that wasn't there.
Nah. I think you missed Shatterpoint as another skill that Windu would have along with Vaapad. Maybe he doesnt chop off Dooku's head, but im giving the win to Windu.
Has anyone noticed how Enrique Iglesias's "bailando" melody fits perfectly on the song this videos always have at the end?
Have ya'll ever had Holocrons about specific star ships? I.e., m.falcon, invisible hand?
Windu form was 7! He used aggressive power strikes! Anakin used form 5 which was aggressive and power based too! Once Anakin got his footing or fought more, his power strikes against Dooku wore down the order Dooku more and more! Form 2 isn't great against great swords men who used power strikes. Windu was a bad match up for Dooku!
I just think Dooku is far more superior too WIndu. The dude was in his 60-70's in Clone Wars and taking on Anakin and Kenobi numerous times in battle and live (bar one fight) I feel Windu wouldn't last long at all in a duel against Dooku
It’s funny cause the fact that Mace used Vapaad is why he beat Sidious but also why Anakin betrayed him. Anakin mistook Maces controlled darkness for his own uncontrolled darkness and believed it was reflection of all the Jedi.
Mace has shatter point as well everybody all ways trying to nurf Mace against their favorites....and i say this with Mace not being even my top 3 favorites of star wars
Even if Dooku could handle Windu’s use of Vapaad, Windu still has Shatterpoint so Windu would win either way.
Dookus assessment came from fighting sora bulq and I'm not sure if he dueled Mace in canon or if he saw the development of Vaupad in the 13 years he was gone.
When Dooku declared Vaapad was sloppy, he wasn't fighting Windu but that other guy who claimed to have mastered Vapaad but clearly was far from mastery. While Vaapad might not work as well against Dooku, Windu is still a master of the other lightsaber forms so he stands a good chance of winning as Dooku is only a master of Form 2.
I agree. He also mastered shatterpoint (which in the novels anakin was astounded by, he had never seen mace use shatterpoint until fighting palpatine) Dooku vs Mace would be an amazing fight. I would say dooku has one advantage over mace, Dooku was trained by Yoda himself
In fairness Dooku is also very skilled in other forms too, he just favors form 2. Dooku does seem to have a fairly good grasp of form 4, after all both Yoda and Qui-Gon favored form 4, so at the very least he has a good grasp of form 4.
I think Windu's Shatterpoint still gives him the edge. Also Windu is younger and wont fatigue as easily as Dooku.
Shatterpoint isn't a win-all tool. Dooku doesn't leave much for openings, and dooku's form is less exhaustive while Windu's is very energy exhaustive
@@unigaming9921yes but it allows him to use his speed to identify and overwhelm Dookus small holes and thus make them bigger.
@MylesKillis dooku is the one to have many holes to work against. Dooku would he windus chief weakness. The skill and calmness to slice through vaapad with the skill and finesse to minimize the benefit of shatterpoint
Dooku would've been godlike if he mastered Vaapad. Mace is the creator yes, but he never went to the dark side, Dooku got the dark side experience that he can use to its full force and never turn, even surpassing Mace himself in Vaapad.
mace cant beat dooku man…. if sidious was prepared and knew of his fighting style(which he clearly didnt based on how he fought him) mace wouldnt have stood a chance against him either. ppl see that feat and hold mace in such a high regard.🤦🏾♂️