Kosen Judo VS BJJ: the takedown is EVERYTHING (Koji Komuro 小室 宏二)
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- Опубліковано 26 тра 2022
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As someone with both a BJJ and a Judo background, I would honestly like to see BJJ competitions ban guard pulling. It offers no incentives for people learning takedowns. Why would you learn grip fighting on the feet, how to setup and execute throws when you can just sit down and play shin-on-shin guard or something? BJJ will never advance if it doesn't give penalise guard pulling/sitting down. I don't mind starting from the knees in training just to get a roll in, but in competition - the only way it should go to the ground is from a takedown.
Pull guard and jump guard are the most stupid things of BJJ and promote stalling and unrealistic ways of "fighting" that have 0 application as self defense and the real world.
Just award the takedown to the opponent when someone guard pulls.
no judo background here, i agree. ban guard pull, or at least automatically give takedown points to the opponent against a guard puller...my bjj coach (tongue in cheek) "pulling guard-where losers go to die."
I agree Jiu Jitsu guys shouldn’t be able to pull guard or if you do you better start finishing right away. They should at least know some wrestling Judos class but at least learn something
When I used to fight in jujitsu tournaments I would always stand tall a little bit dreaming it’s not like my standup was that good. But I fantasized of having a classic way of finding the Judo stand up and ground without honking over bagger bowling hand
stand regal And class I Jacari Souza
To be graded both wow
It’s definitely coming
I so agree that that the lift should be an end of a bjj match.
We do drills where we allow a training partner to throw you (or the other way around) and once it hits the ground it’s GO TIME, 30 second drill time. This has helped our team make the standing to ground connection, that way it’s not like “uh…oh yeah! I’ve got to keep working!” So the throw is allowed but the moment it hits it’s time to pin or submit if you’re on top, or sweep, submit, or escape if you’re on bottom. It’s helped me tremendously get pins right off the throw.
i do this with some of the black belt judo guys. it's a great concept, as you described. as you know, an ipon doesnt end the bjj match, it's just a couple points (and start of a dominant position). Def enough time to reverse it.
Don't band guard pulling, just allow slamming, and all of that will go out the window. The slam is the reason why, and messed up knees it was banned from judo. But ya if BJJ had slamming people would definitely be more careful of flying triangles and guard pulling. Especially if Judoka's went back to teaching folks how to properly slam, by creating distance with the head by the forearm and allowing their opponent's head to snap back, so they can't tuck the chin. The slam is all about getting the head to snap back.
This is the problem with BJJ . So many people cannot see that it is sport related. Now if that is what you are into for the sporting purpose...THEN FINE! However so many BJJ practitioners fall short in REAL COMBAT when they apply their 'training' takedown only to realise
1- that the opponent has an accomplice.
2- Concrete is not the same as a Dojo mat.
3- Such sacrificial technique as the takedown puts the individual at great risk thats why numerous BJJ gets knocked out by an incoming knee.
The sacrifice technique are from judo... a lot of judotards in this channel, what a shame
There's this video where a guy (I don't know what he practiced, but is clear he knew some grappling, and for his mind set I bet he did BJJ) who in a street fight went to the ground WILLINGLY and started using his opponent like a puppet. He was the ultimate chad... until a woman appered and crush his head with a wooden board. All his "black belt ground techniques" gone with his consciousness hahaha
BJJ is good, is the king of ground fighting (nobody denies that) and if you could practice BJJ go for it... but unfortunately thanks to MMA and all the Gracie's propaganda, a lot of people belives BJJ is unbeatable, that knowing how to throw someone is not necesary, belives that pulling guards and going to the ground willingly in a real life scenario are good ideas.
The best thing someone who wants to be a good grappler or a complete fighter could do is to learn Judo and Wrestling (one of them, or both if you can) and THEN also start taking clases of BJJ as a complement.
On youtube you can see that judoke fights according to BJJ rules but I have never seen a BJJ fighter fight according to Judo rules
Bc bjj rules allows all judo technics and not the other way around.
What can a bjj guy do who spent all the years mastering the single leg takedown and the x-guard sweep under judo rules?
What does his ground work worths if the refree will stand them up after few seconds?
I was having a conversation today with a fellow bjj Old school player. We are protecting our opponents when we throw them from damage and are awarded 2 points for what would be devastating and permanent damage in a street situation. If someone passes my legs and pins me they get 3 points. I would love to see takedowns awarded a minimum of 4 points, possibly 6 if the throw has intrinsic damage value on concrete. Reality should always be the factor in point systems. Kosen Love!!
I agree. Points should be awarded to the most devastating moves.
I do like that idea.
Judo is amazing when it comes to taking folks down. However, controlling your throw and the intent of the martial side is far from gone. The ancestors did not just fight over throw, the fought to control the throw from the start middle and end. They practiced it. Now a days it’s more about the start, nobody talks about the middle, and the end is just ketsa or submission. The middle is where all the control is at and the real battle of the throw to ensure that hard earned throw is not thrown away.
I did an sao naga in bjj class I didn't follow through with the control part he choked me. With a rear choke. I.
Was new
Yup
Kimura's concussive osoto gari being the reason the Gracies used thicker mats would've fit in here. Sport BJJ/grappling has ignored slams for too long. If the semi can get the uke up, that should be an ippon or major points and restart in an advantageous position.
No slams in Judo either
@@PaladinJackal wdym, juda is all about slams? If your throw isnt hard enough you wont get ippon
@@mikalaconway7568 No throws are not slams. Slams are super dangerous even on a mat. Throws much less so. You can go look up what exactly a slam is. Plenty of BJJ DQs via slams online
@@PaladinJackal Just Ippon.
@@joseluki Yes
The strongest piece of evidence I know of which demonstrates the ubiquitous effectiveness of landing takedowns in a combat sports match is that when the Dutch MMA fighter Alistair overeem decided to take a two-year hiatus from MMA to try to win the k1 Grand Prix and kickboxing, he often swept, tripped, and dumped his opponents on the ground hard and disdainfully in order to exhaust and discourage them and it worked!
He found a loophole he could exploit, K-1 allowed sweeps, and that's all he needed to gain an advantage initially.
I couldn't agree more. BJJ should introduce Daki age because hell will freeze over before they ban guard pulling.
What's Daki age?
@@jtom416 If you are in somebody's (closed) guard, but manage to lift that person up to your shoulder level, you win by Ippon without having to do the actual dangerous and illegal slam. Effectively takes away much of the counter productive guard-pulling. The technique/rule is called Daki age.
@@henrikg1388 thanks
They should allow slams when someone pulls guard.
Komlock!!! I worship his dvd
I have always said I would rather be a skilled wrestler with only ok bjj ability then be a bjj master with only ok levels of wrestling.
You are none of them I assume
@@katokianimation im no master that's for sure. But I train both.
@@katokianimation Also, based on your skinny little wrists, you are a girl I assume
If Helio Gracie was thrown 32 times against Yasuichi Ono in their first match, and then 27 times in their second match... one must realize that 1. Helio must have played stand-up Judo way back then (32/27), and 2. takedowns will almost kill you everywhere except for on a mat. Kimura Cup is a great idea!
He was quite good at the stand up throw...he didn't use it in competition
@@anthonyward8133 ? Are you saying Helio was good at throws, but did not want to use it against Ono... so he let himself be thrown 32/27 times?
@@TT-lg7ip ono was one of the greatest judokas that ever lived... I said he was good not great. I believe there was 15 to 20 pound weight driffence
@@anthonyward8133 I think you may missunderstand me... if they were doing "bjj" (ne waza, ground fighting), Helio would not have stood up as evident. He did = they had a Judo-match... Helio was playing Judo.
In a match, small consequent successes build into winning momentum.
As a BJJ practitioner myself, I realized that taking my opponent down creates the momentum I need to pass the guard, and then the guard pass further adds to the momentum, ultimately leading to a submission.
It all starts with the takedown.
I’m not saying that I can always take my opponents down, but that’s what I’m aiming for.
If for some reason I can’t take my opponent down, I don’t mind pulling guard, but I make sure we are going to the ground on my terms.
Wow you’re so tough
@@jeff6133 that’s what she said.
Great video Chadi! Great video!
Excellent content! Thanks for sharing
Oh man I think there's a statistic related to takedowns in bjj competition.
Take this with a grain of salt but I think it was something like, the first to get a takedown (or maybe first to initiate mat work?) seemed to win more often.
If this is real there should be a study or mention of a study somewhere out there.
I agree wholeheartedly. I'd like to see that Stat. 👍
My recollection is that it is the first to score at all usually wins the match. Doesn't matter whether it's a takedown, sweep, pass, or whatever. If you get points on the board first, you're the betting favourite to take the match.
@@psychoshonen Really? Now I KNOW I have to find that stat. Thanks!
The study was posted on High Precentage Martial Arts. Go check it.
@@honeyhole411 Thanks Gee 👍
Everytime I come home after BJJ class, I always practice takedown techniques.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
Do you use a grappling dummy or a heavy bag?
@@MrAlepedroza neither, I only had air at the time 😂.
But later on I got a grappling dummy ☺️.
I train in Spain and our academy really makes us train our takedowns. I have incorporated sumi gaeshi as my go to throw because even if it fails I end up in butterfly guard which is my favorite guard
Same here
Great content as always Chadi. The Kimura
Cup competition sounds fun.
Also, would you consider doing a video on Kashiwazaki since ground game is fresh on your mind ?
Thank you and have safe training Chadi!
Sure
I love judo but if it wants to stay relevant and survive into the future judo schools need to train regularly without the gi at least as often as with it.
Bjj and sambo do a good job of offering both sport and combat versions of their art and I would love to see judo do the same
I don't think the survival of judo depends on wearing the gi. In most street altercations, people are wearing shirts/hoodies/etc.. which can be used for gripping.
Judo's main problem is that judo gyms do not market themselves like BJJ gyms do. BJJ gyms are experts in online marketing. Judo gyms just exist and think that if people specifically want to train judo, they will seek the classes out. Judo gyms should be marketing themselves to BJJ players to help them improve their standup. Most Judo gyms are recreational places with low fees, most BJJ gyms are businesses with higher fees looking to make a profit. And in order to succeed in making a profit, they need to be able to sell their product - in this case, instruction of a martial art which has a huge amount of TV exposure through MMA.
@@AnGhaeilge how do you judo throw someone who is only wearing a tshirt? Unless you are heavily modifing it.
Also what if it is summet and you are actually attacked by some half naked jerk? Are you gonna ask him politely to take a shirt on before he tries to smash your face?
@@katokianimation There are many throws/sweeps in judo that do not rely rigidly on grips. Foot sweeps and hip throws can be hit on people easily with or without a shirt on.
Judo needs to go back to its early days when they practiced Newaza.
Kimura Cup would be awesome!!
Very interesting, as usual :) Many thanks :)
🙇🏻♂️
I agree! Competitive BJJ, with the exception of submission only, often has a lot of issues and skewed focus, especially where heel hooks and anklelocks have been removed.
The same can be said of olympic tournament style Judo, where many wrestling style takedowns are not allowed.
Hi Chadi. I have recently gotten back on the mats after 2 decades of other endeavours. in the early 90s I was very fortunate to train with Hokkudai University Kosen Judo bu in Sapporo. After that I continued to train thru the 90s with high level Judoka in Western Australia and Western Canada. But the spirit (or state of mind) was very different. Yes these were strong judoka, but there was much less mutual respect, friendliness and comraderie than with the Japanese. I am just lately catching up on your videos, and I want to say that I very much appreciate the mind and manner with which you study and share this information.
Love that kimura cup idea. Imagine bjj vs judo teams gi only with a unique rules.
Wrestling fundamentals are crucial.
What are your thoughts on getting some kind of tight clinch (collar ties, Russian ties, etc.) and pulling to the ground for a butterfly sweep or any other kind of trip?
Rampage Jackson knock couple of guy’s out picking them up and slamming when they pulled guard on him.
I think this "deer in the headlights"-effect comes from your brain being unable to process where you actually are as once your feet leave the ground, you have no real valid points of reference for your body position in 3-dimensional space, and even after landing, it will take some split seconds to process the information. When you are standing, you have your feet on the ground as a reference and usually visual and/or tactile information about your opponent, on the ground you have multiple body parts touching the ground plus lots of tactile information about your opponent while both of you only move in 2-dimensions. So the moment of being thrown is the most confusing time for your brain naturally.
Wow that’s great one judoka
This video is so true because I have a training partner who is a submission machine and artist but hav bad takedowns but I have solid and powerful takedowns,if we started randori just on the ground he would submit you and you would find it impossible to submit him but as a soon as we get up on our feet anytime I slam him and go for submissions he can’t defend the submission or has any idea what to do next,we both use judo to fight mma but he prefers ground fighting or bjj stuffs but it seems most people can’t defend submission after being slammed
I think reality says it all....there are VERY few Judo black belts who achieve a high level in MMA, whereas almost EVERY MMA champ has incredible BJJ and grappling skills. Judo is fantastic and is necessary to be a well rounded fighter, but is by no means necessary to be a UFC champion, which says volumes about its place in the highest levels of real fighting.
Russian fighters seem to have success with judo in mma
Wrestling is very similar to Judo for no gi, so is more common because MMA is no gi. Also arguably the greatest MMA fighter of all time Fedor Emelianenko's grappling style is completely Judo derived.
I always felt like learning BJJ or judo is like learning half of a technique; it’s why wrestling and sambo is so good they have both; especially when you consider how you can end a fight with that slam you talked about;
Judo has Newaza, however sport scoring puts the emphasis on the Ippon.
Kosen ne waza - best on ground
The problem with explaining why pulling guard isn't sporting is the same problem encountered in trying to explain why fighting on the ground is a bad idea in self defense situations.
The judo guy when he took the arm kept his left leg hooked inside the Jiujitsu guys leg making it harder for the Jujitsu guy to get out of the unlock which was fascinating. In my opinion that was the trouble perfect
All of this originated in ancient Japan which didn’t have asphalt and concrete everywhere. This is an obvious statement but mats are a substitute for soft ground or loose dirt like wrestling in India, Persia, Mongolia, etc
0:45 - 1st fight
1:55 - 2nd fight
2:45 - 3rd fight
3:25 - 4th fight
4:15 - The importance of the takedown
9:15 - Conclusion
What is the background song name? Great video
Chadi- where do you train bro?
Japanese Judo: Daki Age
Brazilian Buttscooters: Get in my guard bro.
We do takedowns in GJJ just not often
Am a bjj guy but I do believe bjj and judo should go back to the orginal both having take downs and grappling. Am very happy that kenso judo has kept both. That is why when I train as a bjj guy I try to mix my take down and grappling
Hey man come to our kodokan judo gym. In Oregon. We are small gym. Come down anytime your welcome anytime!!
Where at? I’m in Oregon too and I’m looking for a good school.
Who's the instructor? We recently had one in Seattle....
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 I am the instructor
@@dancerelle5020 Cool! So no connection to Sea-Town Grappling, etc.?
@@InGrindWeCrust2010 Jigoro kano then kazuzo kudo then kato uzo larry keith then me
Reading the comments here I am shocked at the lack of wrestling available in the UK unlike America where every male student has done it at least for several years. And wrestling in America has its roots in the UK. We readily accept that fact when its told to us.
Put in this day and age great Brazilian jujitsu judo guys know some takedowns wrestling and judo those old days are over Ronaldo Jacari Souza
sprawl...
done.
Graaa
Not to many judo schools teach newaza that's one thing to needs to change
Do Shime aggesive is not same as pull o hop 2 guard
A ideal sceanario in contests would be no mats …just a wooden floor ….MMA gloves allowed too …..that would rule out the typical BJJ stood up crouch (which is so unrealistic to a real fight )…….the wooden floor would stop almost all triangle choke attacks as the slam would be a fight ending move …….it will never happen as l know that it would no longer a safe sport ….
The thing is that you are talking about 2 trained fighters,its very easy to stop being lifted by a non grappler.
Making up shit based on zero knowledge...
you can grab the leg to get extra leverage and to stop them to standing up. Even if slaming is not allowed they can use gravity to escape. Also slamming is a finishing move alredy. Grapplers don't have to fuck up their spine for a life to knock someone out with a smash
Imagine this occurs outdoors on asphalt or concrete or a rough surface of stones or gravel or broken glass in a bar or garbage/feces/drug syringes littering a sidewalk- who is going to want to fall onto their back in that situation especially if your attacker/opponent has friends with knives or bats? Need to avoid doing things on a mat that we can’t safely do on the street
B.J.J.=Basically Just Judo
Did you get beat up in a BJJ class and trying to justify it? Cute.
I am a pure judo guy bjj has great positioning statagy on the ground much respect
Boring Ju Jitsu
@@honeyhole411 10 years into BJJ. Brown 1 stripe. Training under a Gracie. Sure buddy lol
@@Karen-fs6lf BJJ is just judo’s newaza with different rules that’s it
What I cannot stand is butt scooters. People who immediately sit down, and it's sad and embarrassing to see.
Guard pull o the brazilan but flop is not efective n combat it a trap 4 mat fight only
The bigger the people the more important the takedown is. Also, rules matter. There is a reason sweeps are worth the same points
3:04 "Finish him" in mortal combat. That's like death in the street. Let go if youre ever in this situation (unless it's a ibjjf tournament)
Letting go was my first thought, but Uke can't even let go because Tori has control over the legs. So grabbing/hooking a leg with the arm would have been the only option to prevent the slam. I like the idea of it being counted as Ippon once Uke is lifted to shoulder height. On the street, that would indeed be very much a Mortal Kombat like "Finish him" move.
I disagree on a couple points I think twisting knee bars, twisting ankle locks,guard pull and jumping guard pull should be banned but straight knee bars and ankle locks should be allowed those are far easier to do safely. I agree on everything else
lol, you waisted your life too in aikido
Kick 2 skull fix the flop
Judo is better than BJJ
Lmao of you and rokas recent videos do y'all not train takedowns in Europe in bjj or something. In the US pretty much everyone is incorporating wrestling or judo now. Now what you see in competition is just the ruleset since bjj is the freesest of the grappling arts and the inches matter so much more the higher you compete people will just shoot for the most efficient path to their strength especially since they're not penalized (like leg locks or bottom gaurd game) on the other hand if you look at the most recent ADCC events you'll see slams take downs sprawls hand fighting. Because the Rules favors that.
Granted a bjjer wont be better at a judoka at throws but that's their specialty or goal realistically it's all the same shit just with a different focus.
“In the US pretty much everyone is incorporating judo or wrestling now” that’s a whole cap. The judo in USA is trash and only thing bjjers learn about wrestling is a double leg takedown. That’s it
@@jeff6133 bruh I take you don't compete all
What state do you live in? Because unless you live in a wrestling heavy state, most BJJ schools are trash at takedowns, and I’m talking brown/black belts.
@@IpponQing phili dude everyone and their mom on the east coast are are wrestlers.
Hell balance studios has wrestling practice every Sunday free for any affiliates.
My gym has wrestling every Friday and our head coach trains cross trains judo.
Last torney I went guys were going for takedowns and trips even at white belt.
It's the art and all gym cultures also giving the ruleset you don't have to be the best at takedowns you just have to be good enough.
Your blind or behind the curve if you don't see the culture change it's insane to think wrestlers won't eventually impact the sport.
@@justin8865 I’ve won more times than you’ve competed. Send your ig and I’ll send you the stats. Who the hell are you?
高専柔道？？たぶんBJJの原型かな。
My favorite defense against BJJ practitioners is an iron ranger kick to the eye socket.