Chladni patterns (almost)
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- A bit of a work in progress...
I've built a jig to analyse the vibration of guitar tops and backs, the build of which you can watch on Patreon. The jig works, but using glitter to show the vibration looks good on camera but leaves a little to be desired if true analysis is the goal.
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/ susangardener
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teespring.com/en-GB/stores/su... - Навчання та стиль
If at first......... I'm now waiting in anticipation for you next video.
I have doubts regarding torrified tops,the one thing that does not happen during treatment is musical notes of the right frequencies are not/cannot be played to the wood and therefore the cellular structure of the wood won't be the same as an old guitar top that has aged whilst being played.Just a thought inspired by your video.....................
If you ran this for a long time with a sharp sand you could create an interesting finish...
I hope you find what your looking for lol. Seriously though this fascinating and can’t wait for follow up .It is never clear to me what to do if the wood tap tone doesn’t ring .
Hold it in a different spot. Seriously, that can make a HUGE difference in how a piece of wood rings. You have to find the node, otherwise you're choking off the vibrations. And of course, each piece of wood will be different. Makes learning wood REALLY important in instrument building.
Its interesting to see the patterns but once the top is fixed to the guitar it will be constrained around the edge. Has anyone done a comparison to see how it change?
I will be doing that. I have a jig to constrain the edges
I use salt for experiments like this, in fact I'll have a video on it in the future. salt is cheap and reacts well but is harder to catch on video.
Hey Randy, you alright my friend? Been worried, could you post a status update...
@@budandbean1 thank you Buddy, they think I had a stroke, I will post an update as soon as I know something more definite and am out of here.
Wow - I hope you’re ok. On the subject of salt, I have an aversion to it as I live on the coast and I struggle to keep things from rusting. Happy British New Year in 13 minutes time!
Thank you Randy, you take it easy, my heart and prayers are with you.
So let me get this straight, in order to see the building of the fixture you are using one must be a contributing member on patreon? Don't get me wrong I understand why and I guess it makes sense but if this is a sign of the times I'm going to have to break into my piggy bank! (So I guess it works ;) ) I look forward to "reading the tea leaves" next week.
Susan a lot of the guys doing this also use poppy seeds. Probably cheaper than tea leaves?
....and seriously - get the Gore/Gilet books. There's plenty of science/maths/engineering aspects of lutherie in there - enough to make you want to change your build style radically (well it has me anyway!)
I’m still reading Somogyi and that’s given me ideas. I’ve read some good lutherie journal articles too
@@SusanGardener From what I've read Somogyi is the more intuitive approach which is great if you have the experience of having tapped hundreds/thousands of guitar plates and know what to listen for. Gore/Gilet has a measurable, scientific approach which allows you to optimise an instrument regardless (within reason) of the materials you have available. For example to get an estimated plate thickness there are various equations using such things as the wood density, its Shear Modulus and Youngs Modulus amongst other things. Material properties that can be quantified in other words. I like their approach as I don't have said experience of having worked with thousands of instrument plates. I haven't read Somogyi so can't say if that's an accurate description of his approach. My next instruments are going to follow the Gore/Gilet approach to plate thicknessing with falcate bracing and using carbon fibre to reinforce the bracing. I have high hopes!
I get what you mean. Somogyi does offer some specifics but he can be frustratingly vague - eg keep going till you hear the top open up - this will come with experience
@@SusanGardener there's none of that with Gore/Gilet. Hard facts and data are what drive their approach. I'm sure Somogyi's approach works for him and clearly he makes amazing instruments. Gore/Gilet puts such instruments within reach of mere mortal builders like myself.
Either you have builder's mojo or you don't. Science only can take you so far. This video is a red herring for sure...
Acht, Susie has mo' mojo than Mo & Joe, put together.
I take it you’ve given up teaching then. That’s a shame
@@SusanGardener?
I'm sure I saw someone doing this with salt.
Excuse me, but it's kind of a waste of time (for anything other than absolute research) to do this on the whole blank. It's going to change once it's cut to shape, and it'll change again once it's braced, and change AGAIN once it's attached to the sides. This is my issue with Chladni patterns to begin with. I understand the point behind them, but really, since the plates change with every additional step, it's not until the plate is attached to the sides as a whole instrument that they mean much of anything.
My brother has built for decades, and is well past 200 instruments, by now, and I have several of his instruments. He plays with Chladnis all the time, but I don't see what the real point of them is until they are on the instrument, and then you're dealing with the entire instrument, not just the plates. I know this is standard technique, but since everything constantly changes while building, unless you can tell specifically what changes each step will make, you're still shooting in the dark, it seems to me. I see it as much more of a scientific oddity than a real building tool.
BTW, he's not a huge fan of Somogyi. If you really want to get into the scientific aspect of building, there are a pair of books by some Aussies (I don't remember their names, sorry) that go into the theory and practice in a HUGE way. Far too complicated for me, and I don't build much in acoustic instruments, myself. I'm working on the second of my tapping guitars, as I built the first one and had no idea what was really required, so I made some mistakes. I'm correcting those on the sequel.
I'm really enjoying this series, thanks much for doing it. Can't wait to see how the whole thing turns out.
I actually do want to see what the modes look like on the free plate of the back, as I explain in next week’s video. I have to make a decision on how much of the cross grain area of the back plate to leave in tact. The Chladni patterns might not tell me much, but I’d rather have the information than not. I’m also aware that the free plate modes don’t really mean much as far as the final guitar goes, and I will be clamping the edges down. I still want to see what they look like though as an insight into how the plate vibration changes and how aspects of bracing change that. Gore guitars (+ Gilet) is the Australians you’re referring to.
@@SusanGardener As a research issue, I get it. But as a practical tool, I'm really not sure about it's usefulness. It really just seems like an interesting oddity to me, maybe I'm missing the big picture here. It's interesting to see on violins, I can't see how the angle of the arching doesn't affect it.
BTW, a quick google search for "CF Morrison guitars" will get you to my brother's site. He's doing some things that you might find interesting, especially cutaways and neck shaping high up the neck.
Chladni ‘patterns’ is a bit of a red herring. The important info is the frequencies of the modes corresponding to the patterns - the monopole, cross dipole, long dipole etc. The patterns won’t change much with brace shaping, but the frequencies do, and that’s the critical determinant of the tone of the guitar
I checked out your brother’s guitar - nice! I like the Em13 tuned 8 string idea
@@SusanGardener He really likes that one. He built it and came up with the idea from trying to play Johnny Smith chord solos. The stretches that guy could do at the drop of a hat were just scary. So Chuck came up with this 8 string tuning idea, and he says it makes playing those things MUCH easier.
Oddly enough, it's kind of a variation that a friend of ours did decades ago on a Framus guitar he had my brother modify with a new fingerboard that now stuck out over the edges of the neck by about 1/4" on each side. He said he didn't want his hand on the side of the neck, so it wasn't an issue. He strung it all up with 7 strings and a minor third tuning between each string. I thought he was nuts, and then I heard what he was playing with it, and my assessment changed immediately. He was coming up with voicings that you could NEVER find in standard tuning, and chords would change from a very minor finger movement.
While I've played with a lot of different tunings over the years, I haven't messed with that one or my brother's new one. I've got enough on my plate with the all 4ths tuning on the tapping guitar and the weirdness of the pedal steel, an instrument truly invented by committee.
Glad you found his stuff interesting. I've got an acoustic of his that has the best neck I've ever played on, and a 7 string classical that he played for years and didn't like, so he made himself another one. Now that he's doing the 8 string, I'm not sure if he's even picking that one up, anymore.
Poppy seeds
Just bought some - great suggestion
Poppy seeds are terrible - they're too round and roll off the plate far too easily. Tea leaves probably better, because they are irregularly shaped, but I haven't tried these. Black, non-static glitter if such a thing exists (do you know any Goths?) might be best of all ...