The face-pull movement is outstanding for overall scapular health. Despite posing as an ordinary compound exercise -- _since it requires two joints working under tension_ -- it's a much more complex exercise since the lines of tension on the shoulder joint work over several planes. It's also called a "face-pull" because if you're using a triceps press-down rope, you'll want the "crotch" of that rope to be coming straight at the tip of your nose. At the apex position the upper arm is fighting against internal rotation, which is what I mean by 'shoulder-joint-work-over-several-planes'. It starts as a pull, and ends as a torsion. Are face-pulls the best _REAR-DELT_ exercise? No. Are face-pulls probably one of the best scapular health exercise - _IF you could only do one?_ Probably. Maybe even _DEFINITELY._ It's a tool. And like any other tool it has a purpose, and outside of that purpose it's going to have limited value. Just because a screwdriver sucks at pounding in a nail doesn't mean it's a useless tool.
The high pulley cross body pull that you demonstrated is the best rear delt movement bar none. I use a rope and coil it around my hand. Then I focus on pulling out using the blade of hand. Delts have exploded since doing these
Cable reverse flies are really nice. So is reverse flies sitting sideways on the pec deck machine. You can do the same thing with dumbbells, essentially a powell raise with the bench flat or a low incline. My personal favorite rear delt exercise is a one-arm crossbody row to the chest, similar to a facepull but it actually has tension in the stretched portion and it doesn't have all of that goofy rotation shit going on so you can go way heavier. It's also pretty stable unlike standing facepulls, although doing facepulls on the seated cable low row fixes that instability problem.
I don't use machines so I came up with my own version of face pulls/rows with dumbells. Slightly bend your knees, keep your back straight, lock your shoulders back and hinge at the hips to bend over then pull the dumbells towards the sides of your head as high and as far back as you can. It should look like a front double bicep pose but bent over, film your shoulders from the top down and you'll see RD activation like nothing you've ever seen before.
The traps do not move the humorous. They cannot take over for a muscle moving the arm. The traps usually get fatigued when going past the ROM of the humorous in the scapula when you squeeze the scapula together at the end. Not a bad thing for getting some work in on the traps but they aren't taking over for anything.
@ true, but face pulls aren’t an isolated humorous movement. At full extension you should protract the scapula and during contraction you should retract the scapula. It’s a compound movement.
@@zack7smitheyit's only a compound movement because the shoulder and the elbow move, not because the scapula moves. If you stop the movement with your arms straight out instead of going behind you, the scapulas don't necessarily need to move. I agree everyone, including myself, do it that way though.
Also i watchedsome of your work on teres major......i remember rich piana and jon meadows being advocates of partial wide grip pulldowns. Do you think that would keep constant tension on the teres major and be a good builder for it?
An amazing teres major movement is an overhead cable crossover. Set cables as high as they go, kneel down, allow hands to crossover head, then pull down laterally straight out to your side. You’ll get much more stretch and range of motion than just doing a wide grip pull-down.
Since the function of Teres major is shoulder extension/hyperextension, shoulder adduction, and slight internal rotation of the humerus, I work this a little different. I stand facing a dual high cable machine so that my body forms a Y position. I pull my arms to my sides and slightly behind my body. That follows the exact direction of the Teres major fibers.
Hi Ben If when someone does lateral raises in the scapular plane they get impingement or bursitis does that mean the scapular is not upwardly rotating enough and is their a way to fix it
If you're pulling with that grip in the clip at the beginning of the video of you doing the face pull, what can help engage the rear delts more is to switch your grip so the balls are on the outside of your palm (hands still facing down) as this can help emphasize a "pulling apart" mind-muscle connection for the rear delts. But I do agree reverse flies are superior.
I agree with your analysis, Have had a long break from the gym and trying to get back into the swing of things! I love face pulls, but having performed them after a long break, woke up today with muscle soreness in my lower traps; which is fine, because I also am incorporating trap specific training to build them up as I feel that they're lagging. Rear delt specific, I feel more connection in cable crossovers or rear delt fly machine, but I feel that exercise selection is quite specific; i.e do what feels good for you
I started building bigger rear delts by accident after I incorporated pull ups into my regiment. I think it's the downward motion where you resist your body's descent that trains it.
Good point , we need to understand that working a specific muscle tissue should be in line with their orientation and the rear delts aren’t fully horizontally from origin to insertion , it’s a bit upward so we need to do any pull a slightly higher at the beginning then take it abit down like a row .
@dmx1721 yep, especially short range- full stretch across your chest, but only pull til the rear delt contracts- going back further kicks in your back muscles to pull the scapula
@ personally, bilateral inevitability engages more upper back muscles after a few reps, while unilateral I can get a little more stretch and focus on strictly the rear delts for the entire set. I have experimented with both for a few years, and have now solely programmed for unilateral work on cable and pec deck rear flys.
I got pretty decent rear deals just doing reverse pec deck and bent over lat raises. I've never liked face pulls, it's hard to load them heavy w/o turning it into a core stability and rhomboid exercise.
There are generally two problems with the face pull. 1. It's just not a great rear shoulder exercise 2. I see 90% or more people in the gym doing it wrong. When pulling the cable/handles, your hands should go above the head as if pulling the rope/cable back while going into a rear double bicep pose. Even then not the best for rear delts. I 100% agree, double cable crossovers or rear pec deck is far superior.
If your scapula is upwardly rotating during a lateral raise you're using more than the side delts. Try stopping at about arm parallel to the floor, and try keeping your thumb pointed up, to help reduce impingement in the shoulder joint. Good luck
I'm always up for doing hard exercises, but as soon as the trainer told me to do these I immediately felt a sense of "I fucking hate this movement." I do isolated rear delt work with cables instead of the rope.
hey Ben, that was great! I hhave a question concerning doing rear delt flies with dumbell, like in " chest supported rear delt DB fly", what do you think about that?
Sir how much should be frequency of rear delt coz I don't feel soreness in my rear delt . It's either in not training good or either it is recovering fast
I'm really impressed with Ben's understanding of biomechanics, but I have to wonder how many exercises it would take for a full workout. It seems like you'd have to basically live in the gym to hit everything correctly.
appreciate the kind words! my current split is 5 days/week, i hit everything (but with an upper body priority), and my average session length is about 50-60 mins!
Maybe I’m in the minority but i’ve never done facepulls to isolate my rear delts? Do they get hit while doing them? Of course, especially how i set mine up and how my arm movement differs from the usual person doing them. Also, i do them at the end of shoulder day, when i feel it in my entire shoulder and especially in my rear delts. Very little upper back doing it fatigued with lighter weight/higher volume
The face-pull movement is outstanding for overall scapular health. Despite posing as an ordinary compound exercise -- _since it requires two joints working under tension_ -- it's a much more complex exercise since the lines of tension on the shoulder joint work over several planes. It's also called a "face-pull" because if you're using a triceps press-down rope, you'll want the "crotch" of that rope to be coming straight at the tip of your nose. At the apex position the upper arm is fighting against internal rotation, which is what I mean by 'shoulder-joint-work-over-several-planes'. It starts as a pull, and ends as a torsion.
Are face-pulls the best _REAR-DELT_ exercise? No.
Are face-pulls probably one of the best scapular health exercise - _IF you could only do one?_ Probably. Maybe even _DEFINITELY._
It's a tool. And like any other tool it has a purpose, and outside of that purpose it's going to have limited value. Just because a screwdriver sucks at pounding in a nail doesn't mean it's a useless tool.
One of the best sources of excellent bodybuilding advice that I've found on UA-cam! Thank you!
Shots fired at AtheneX. Your explanation makes so much sense!
One of the sickest rear delt DOMS I ever got was from bent over rows (near horizontal torso) with flared elbows to failure
The biggest mistake is going too heavy and think and 3 inch wide muscle needs all that weight
The high pulley cross body pull that you demonstrated is the best rear delt movement bar none. I use a rope and coil it around my hand. Then I focus on pulling out using the blade of hand. Delts have exploded since doing these
Cable reverse flies are really nice. So is reverse flies sitting sideways on the pec deck machine. You can do the same thing with dumbbells, essentially a powell raise with the bench flat or a low incline. My personal favorite rear delt exercise is a one-arm crossbody row to the chest, similar to a facepull but it actually has tension in the stretched portion and it doesn't have all of that goofy rotation shit going on so you can go way heavier. It's also pretty stable unlike standing facepulls, although doing facepulls on the seated cable low row fixes that instability problem.
I don't use machines so I came up with my own version of face pulls/rows with dumbells. Slightly bend your knees, keep your back straight, lock your shoulders back and hinge at the hips to bend over then pull the dumbells towards the sides of your head as high and as far back as you can. It should look like a front double bicep pose but bent over, film your shoulders from the top down and you'll see RD activation like nothing you've ever seen before.
Why don’t you use machines?!
Agreed, face pulls hit the traps more, especially when pulling slightly higher, ending in a back double biceps position.
The traps do not move the humorous. They cannot take over for a muscle moving the arm. The traps usually get fatigued when going past the ROM of the humorous in the scapula when you squeeze the scapula together at the end. Not a bad thing for getting some work in on the traps but they aren't taking over for anything.
@ true, but face pulls aren’t an isolated humorous movement. At full extension you should protract the scapula and during contraction you should retract the scapula. It’s a compound movement.
@@zack7smitheyit's only a compound movement because the shoulder and the elbow move, not because the scapula moves. If you stop the movement with your arms straight out instead of going behind you, the scapulas don't necessarily need to move. I agree everyone, including myself, do it that way though.
Also i watchedsome of your work on teres major......i remember rich piana and jon meadows being advocates of partial wide grip pulldowns. Do you think that would keep constant tension on the teres major and be a good builder for it?
An amazing teres major movement is an overhead cable crossover. Set cables as high as they go, kneel down, allow hands to crossover head, then pull down laterally straight out to your side. You’ll get much more stretch and range of motion than just doing a wide grip pull-down.
Since the function of Teres major is shoulder extension/hyperextension, shoulder adduction, and slight internal rotation of the humerus, I work this a little different.
I stand facing a dual high cable machine so that my body forms a Y position. I pull my arms to my sides and slightly behind my body. That follows the exact direction of the Teres major fibers.
Maks logical sense. Ive always had problems doing the Face Pulls. I always felt it in my Traps. Face Pulls are the worst for Rear Delts.
Hi Ben
If when someone does lateral raises in the scapular plane they get impingement or bursitis does that mean the scapular is not upwardly rotating enough and is their a way to fix it
If you're pulling with that grip in the clip at the beginning of the video of you doing the face pull, what can help engage the rear delts more is to switch your grip so the balls are on the outside of your palm (hands still facing down) as this can help emphasize a "pulling apart" mind-muscle connection for the rear delts. But I do agree reverse flies are superior.
I agree with your analysis, Have had a long break from the gym and trying to get back into the swing of things! I love face pulls, but having performed them after a long break, woke up today with muscle soreness in my lower traps; which is fine, because I also am incorporating trap specific training to build them up as I feel that they're lagging. Rear delt specific, I feel more connection in cable crossovers or rear delt fly machine, but I feel that exercise selection is quite specific; i.e do what feels good for you
I started building bigger rear delts by accident after I incorporated pull ups into my regiment. I think it's the downward motion where you resist your body's descent that trains it.
Good point , we need to understand that working a specific muscle tissue should be in line with their orientation and the rear delts aren’t fully horizontally from origin to insertion , it’s a bit upward so we need to do any pull a slightly higher at the beginning then take it abit down like a row .
This is exactly what I’ve been doing for my rear delts for quite some time, the rear delt pump I get is amazing
ive been doing that 1 arm cable reverse fly and it's the one that i can feel the RD
Same. Unilateral work seems to work best for rear delts.
@dmx1721 yep, especially short range- full stretch across your chest, but only pull til the rear delt contracts- going back further kicks in your back muscles to pull the scapula
Why wouldn’t a 2 arm reverse fly with the arms starting crossed not work just as well?
@ personally, bilateral inevitability engages more upper back muscles after a few reps, while unilateral I can get a little more stretch and focus on strictly the rear delts for the entire set. I have experimented with both for a few years, and have now solely programmed for unilateral work on cable and pec deck rear flys.
How about the dumbbell Powell raise?
I have been doing that cable move you showed for about 3 weeks, it's amazing. My rear delts get hit every time
I got pretty decent rear deals just doing reverse pec deck and bent over lat raises. I've never liked face pulls, it's hard to load them heavy w/o turning it into a core stability and rhomboid exercise.
There are generally two problems with the face pull.
1. It's just not a great rear shoulder exercise
2. I see 90% or more people in the gym doing it wrong. When pulling the cable/handles, your hands should go above the head as if pulling the rope/cable back while going into a rear double bicep pose. Even then not the best for rear delts. I 100% agree, double cable crossovers or rear pec deck is far superior.
What about facepull external rotation variation?
What about rear delt fly with dumbell
Here for the algor!! I get so much from your vids! Keep the content coning!!
thank you! i will!
If your scapula is upwardly rotating during a lateral raise you're using more than the side delts.
Try stopping at about arm parallel to the floor, and try keeping your thumb pointed up, to help reduce impingement in the shoulder joint.
Good luck
the traps and serratus upwardly rotate the scapula, not the side delt.
The posterior acton of the shoulder is responsible for externally rotating the arm and adducting it posteriorly.
I'm always up for doing hard exercises, but as soon as the trainer told me to do these I immediately felt a sense of "I fucking hate this movement." I do isolated rear delt work with cables instead of the rope.
Making it good for a thick back ??
TRX REAR DELT FLYS hit my delts really good too. i agree with everything
This is one of Eric Janiki's "5 exercises for a massive back" (he pulls up and past his head with both hands)
Nice explanation Ben..
hey Ben, that was great! I hhave a question concerning doing rear delt flies with dumbell, like in " chest supported rear delt DB fly", what do you think about that?
Great content
How does shoulder external/internal rotation affect the rear delts when doing reverse flies?
Sir how much should be frequency of rear delt coz I don't feel soreness in my rear delt . It's either in not training good or either it is recovering fast
4-5 times a week
I dumbbel ok? I mean I know it is suboptimal because of gravity, but if doing one arm from hunched position?
You can lay on your side on a bench, and do one arm at a time and you'll basically get the exact same as Ben is showing in the video
@@psycholars1 thanks! That's actually an old school exercise for rear delts
I'm really impressed with Ben's understanding of biomechanics, but I have to wonder how many exercises it would take for a full workout. It seems like you'd have to basically live in the gym to hit everything correctly.
appreciate the kind words! my current split is 5 days/week, i hit everything (but with an upper body priority), and my average session length is about 50-60 mins!
Whoa, Jeff at Athlean X would beg to differ and he would say, that you're doing the face pull wrong.
Good stuff.
"primary bone that is loaded"
For once, I agree with you 🎉💪
Jeff Cavalier here AthleanX has covered
Reverse peck deck.
Maybe I’m in the minority but i’ve never done facepulls to isolate my rear delts? Do they get hit while doing them? Of course, especially how i set mine up and how my arm movement differs from the usual person doing them. Also, i do them at the end of shoulder day, when i feel it in my entire shoulder and especially in my rear delts. Very little upper back doing it fatigued with lighter weight/higher volume
For the algorithm
👍👍👍👏👏
I find your drawing confusing.
Great video. Amazing. I wonder if Americans would be able to live like that?
What does that even mean?
RFKJr brain
Again, a guru with a shrimp physique " teaching" training techniques😅