*Please consider a thumb up on this one! Please consider subscribing if you are not. Those two things are free.* :-) _OK I absolutely butchered the pronunciation of Spohn… forgive me and don’t kill me too bad in the comments! I was really tongue tied in this video so bare with me._ Anyways…. Let me know what is missing on F Body Torque suspensions Part II, and if need be, I will make a Part 3 to answer all of your questions. I am absolutely committed to helping as much as I can with these videos. It is my hope, to give you enough information in these videos, for FREE, so you can take it and run with it on your own drag cars. A racer who knows the suspension of their drag car, is a more successful racer, informed racer, and SAFER racer! I am not able to keep up with providing detailed and thorough responses to everyone's emails, Facebook messages and UA-cam comments, so please understand. However, I read all of them, and eventually respond. I am prioritizing paying customers to the top of the list, which is only fair. I will eventually get to you, but please hang in there. I have had a few people really cuss me out, and call me every name under the sun, for not responding as fast as they felt I should by dropping everything and giving them my full attention. Guys, I had no idea when I started this, that it would grow to this level. From the heart, Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC samsonperformance.com
Thanks alot for the videos. You help me alot on understanding suspension tuning/geometry. I got an 87 firebird and a 98 s10 I'm building so your leaf spring and f body vids help a ton.
@@currybuiltperformance6206 you are absolutely welcome! Glad to hear they are helping. Good luck on your builds and stay in touch! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE! KevinWilsonSBC
27:43 is the greatest part of the video aside from the wealth of knowledge and info. Keep up the good vids man, this will no doubt help me on my stock suspension fbody deal.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. I was getting excited about it.... LOL. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBCman I was just reviewing this video again and was gonna comment the same thing I did a year ago on my other UA-cam account. Have you done a video on torque arm no prep/bare road stuff?
Excellent advice in both of these videos ! Ive been racing a 3rd gen camaro for 20yrs now and have learned alot . Goes fairly consistent low 1.2x 60’ at 3800 lbs these days . I agree w/ everything youve mentioned w/ the exception of automatically going to a shorter torque arm . All my experience has been w/ the long version from Bmr in combination w/ their turbo 400 trans crossmember w/ dedicated frt torque arm mount that is adjustable also . Wish this info was around 20years ago , had to learn all of this the hard way , by trial and error . Its amazing how even changing rear ride height just a 1/2” will throw everything out of wack if not compensated for . When they r right , they work great , when they are not , they dont even try to work lol !!! Love to see someone much smarter than me give it some love and put it in black and white so its easier to understand and make sense . As far as the argument of wether moving the frt of the torque arm up or down from stock makes any difference , in my car , it definitely does , seems to affect how far out it keeps the leverage on the chassis . One way is more bite earlier , and the other is less initial bite , but has it a little further out with my car using a long torque arm . Excellent job on these videos !
This is one of the best comments I have read in a long time!!! I see your point on the longer tq arm also. Each car is so unique, but I see your point and I love it!!! Thanks so much, Nick, for taking the time to write this!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
great informative videos. running a F body over here in New Zealand it is hard to find someone over here that has knowledge on f body torque arms etc, I have already gone a 1/2 second quicker with just minor mods i have learnt from you.
Thanks for the video and info. I'm working with an H Body "78 Sunbird 4-speed car", and many of these principles still apply. Keep up the great videos.
Great information Kevin! The only issues that I see with short torque arm is that on 3rd gens they don't have the mounting points farther back like the 4th gens. In order to use a short one on a 3rd gen it needs a bar running from each side connected to the subframe connectors which in turn causes exhaust clearance issues on a street car. I've had a long spohn torque arm on my car for over 15 years. It's connected to the transmission crossmember. The car now has DA AFCO's and LCA relocation brackets and Spohn adjustable anti roll bar now. Can't wait for spring to get back to the track.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Good points and thanks for sharing your thoughts! I bet works very well! Keep me posted if you don't mind please. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
The factory torque arm actually mounts in a rubber bushing that is captive in a clam shell that is bolted to the side of the tail shaft of the transmission. There are aftermarket kits that mount it to the transmission crossmember. Midwest chassis sells a kit that uses a mid length arm with a dedicated weld in crossmember for the third generation cars. I have one In my car that has helped my car a ton, it creates separation in the back without being too violent like a short arm. My issue has been trying to slow the separation and up the tire pressure enough to stop the tire shake from wading up the slicks. Thanks for the video, as always your a huge help!
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. While I have setup the kits that mount to the transmission crossmember, I much prefer the shorter torque arm with dedicated chassis crossmember. But I am focused on full drag cars more than street cars. What shocks are you running on the rear? Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC I dont have the part number off hand, they are qa1 doubles that are designed to fit in the stock mounting location. Still using a stock location spring. I believe similar valving to the DD series. All hiems, the torque arm in my car is shorter but not 36 inches. I measured it and lost that book of measurements. I need to re-measure it all before spring.
@@chrislynn2076 If they are not the mod series QA1 shocks, I bet you are running right past the shock valving depending on your car's HP and TQ. Anything above 400 HP in my opinion means you need to move beyond the QA1 DD series off the shelf shocks. This article is a great read I really recommend: www.penskeshocks.com/blog/top-5-issues-impacting-your-drag-racing-suspension-performance and this one: www.penskeshocks.com/blog/monotube-vs.-twin-tube-shocks-which-is-best-for-performance Regardless, thank-you for supporting my channel! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!! KevinWilsonSBC
Kevin I love the videos. I gotta say I’ve got no idea how my 3rd gen is hooking like it does. I’ve got full length UMI torque arm (crossmember mounted), UMI hiem joint LCAs mounted in the lowest hole on a trick chassis 9”rearend with a set of $20 Gabriel replacement shocks in the rear and a set of totally blown out original 110,000 mile struts on the front. UMI adjustable antiroll bar in the rear and this thing dead hooks 1.3 60fts on a 26/10 MT pro bracket radial. I’ve been wanting to goto adjustable coilovers front and rear but I see all these guys at the track with 2 way and 3 way adjustables and short torque arms on the same chassis and can’t get their cars to 60ft for shit. Basically it’s scared me off of changing anything until I start actually running into problems. I mean, you can watch some of my videos and see my front comes up and goes down way faster than ideal, and it’s definitely because of the stock blown out front struts, but it’s working so far and to be honest I have no idea WHY it’s working so well. This is the 6th 3rd Gen I’ve owned in my life and they’ve always just worked for me for some reason even though I admittedly don’t have a lot of technical knowledge of how the suspensions supposed to work. 🤷🏼♂️
I would not change a thing!!! This is a great post and many can learn a bunch from it as it is all about the entire combination with the gearing (rear and trans), along with power levels and power adders, and surface prep. You didn't share too much about if you are foot braking or leaving on a transbrake and you didn't share your HP/TQ at the engine. The long torque arm is very forgiving and the current LCAs are a great combination based on certain gearing and power output. If I made any changes, it would keeping the front end under better control so it comes up, but stays up a tad better. I bet it has more 60' left in it. The rear double adjustable shocks will become more necessary around the 1.19 and quicker 60' times IMO. Thanks for leaving this comment! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Leaving off transbrake. Cars making just over 900 at the crank based on weight/mph. So far it’s been 5.80 in the 1/8 on 18lbs of boost. Planning to turn it up this spring. Hoping for mid 5s on current setup. I’m definitely not changing anything out back until I start having issues but I’m really considering going to some adjustable coilovers or at least adjustable struts up front to slow the front end down. I’m afraid to leave in more that 5-6lbs of boost because the fronts coming up so fast.
Thanks for the information on the fbody suspension. Hope to be putting this to use soon on my car. Waiting for the heads now. Have a midwest chassis fab 9 with 40 spline gun drilled axles, 2 piece torque armand viking shocks on all 4 corners. Axle shortened 5 in per side. Midwest chassis pro ARB. Can't wait to play around with this stuff!
Mybad i miss the 2nd video. I thank you on the relocation lower control thing idel. Im staying Stock suspison small tire 2000 z28 grudge racing. Ima do everything i can with staying true Tq are stock sus. Ima watch your video now . But thanks Jr. God Gm Ls Lt FTW.
Thanks so much @RJ_BoostedZ28 and I appreciate you supporting this channel! If I missed anything let me know... I will keep making them until we cover it all. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Great video! However I do respectfully disagree, you can calculate the instant center of a torque arm. The torque arm is only a lifting force, so the instant center length is always the length of the torque arm. The IC height is the line where the LCAs go thru the vertical line from the TA. Also moving up the TA mount only changes the pinion angle, nothing else. Also, if you put the torque arm on the passenger side of the axle, you can eliminate any chassis twist from driveshaft torque. I had a friend do that in an S10, and he had it too far on the passenger side, and the passenger side tire always came up first!!!
Absolutely, in the purest form of IC you are 100% correct. Like I shared in many of my videos, IC is just a point of reference to understand changes and the results those changes make. IC is definitely most applied to 4 link setups. Having that said that, what I discuss in this video is simply a point of reference from which you can make changes then test. You always have your changes documented, even if you choose to move the mount point from center to passenger side. Thanks for commenting!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Great information & glad to see you using the chalk board again too. One question: at 750hp level & less, full Spohn setup w/short arm, all welded-in vs. going back-half 4-link setup - you feel there's worthwhile #'s to be gained on the boards? What hp level you feel back-half is worth the investment? What if it's a manual man's-mission? Just wanna say the information you share doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated. Thanks again for listening to your fans with this video and no hurry with my question, whenever you have time is fine. For the price of free you charge for all this great info I'll never complain, lol! 😉🏁
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. At 750 HP you would definitely benefit considering more of a 4 link back half in my opinion. If you are like most of us, you will just keep adding more power in the never ending pursuit of another .1 of second in the 330 or another 10 MPH at the strips. However, a 4 link back half is a big investment and bunch of fabrication costs, if you are not able to DIY it. The full spohn setup with welded LCA relo's will definitely work and keep the car still an "F Body type suspension". The shock valving on this has to be solid as it will have separation, too much actually, so having a shock that can "hold" the hit is critical, along with tuning with LCA angles and TQ arm locations. For example, checkout this car and read the comments... now this is extreme and there is much more going on all around this chassis than is revealed, but it can be done: fb.watch/aAxUq0Uj8y/ *** not sure if youtube will flag my reply with it including a link, so please let me know if you got this reply *** Thank-you for your closing comments! It means alot to read that. It makes all the work that goes into planning these videos, shooting the videos, editing the videos, and uploading the videos to UA-cam, worth it. I am really a 1 man operation as I don't hire out any of my work. I am rambling... Have a good night! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
Thanks Kevin, really appreciate your response. The link worked for me & that Camaro is definitely doing work! My son & I are getting into no prep racing.I've played with bracket racing f-bodys on & off for awhile. To teach him I'm putting him in my 2000 Camaro Z28, 6 speed, lowered 1.5" with the full Spohn chassis kit & short torque arm already installed (except the k-member upgrade) & 4.10 gear, still need DA shocks for it. To help him fully understand & grasp the importance of chassis tuning we're starting at the track with a 375hp LS and working him up to blownn 1200hp as he learns how there are no magic go-fast parts it's having the total combination working in unison goes straight & wins races, not just adding stupid levels of hp to mask lack of chassis tuning knowledge that only wads up the tires and fights ya down the track. The most interesting racing videos to me are in-car shots, watching how much shake they experience & how much they have to steer the car when attempting to go down a straight line. Again truly appreciate your time and help, can't wait till the track opens! Be safe & God bless!
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. @kevinnagle You are one of my most active subscribers and that means a bunch!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
Any thoughts on coming at this from a 275 radial car approach? I think I have a grasp on what's going on here and where a radial would be happy but more information the better. I'm just starting to figure out 60ft changes to make the car work. Made 954 whp on the dyno at 33 psi, track has seen 38 psi. weighs 3600 lbs and been 8.64 at 160 with a 1.29 60ft. I think with some work I can get a 1.teen or 1.23 60ft. Fastest 1/8th was a 5.52 at 127 with a 1.27 60ft.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC When would it be reasonable to use chrome moly/docol on these suspension parts. At a given ET or powerlevel? I guess this would be negative for the cg?
@@79blackbird1 anytime the budget allows for chromoly I would opt for it... above 500 HP I would go chromoly bars and heim joints 100%. This is why I stress weld on LCA relo brackets so much. That LCA is under EXTREME compression loads. I don't understand your last sentence though, so I apologize. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!!
@@79blackbird1 that depends, but on a drag car for track you are good... no prep, even light parts are critical on placement... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Nice video I run a 1987 Firebird with BMR suspension I have the long torque arm. My best so far is a 1.24 60 ft and 5.83 in the 1/8. NA SBC. I am on a radial I find your videos educational.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Very nice running Firebird!! Appreciate the shoutout. Please email/message me some videos of your car or some web links, so I can share your ride and your success on my social media. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Pair that with the LCA relo brackets and you will be fine. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
what's everyone thought on these (620-21700) Lakewood Traction Action Lift Bars 1982-2002 Camaro/Firebird? I've used these in the past and was a big change on how the car would launch. I also used a short torque arm the mounted to the drive shaft tunnel and that too was a huge difference. I don't see anyone use these control arms anymore.
Great videos Kevin. Really appreciated. I would like to ask your thoughts on watts link for centering with a drag car. Only reason I would ask is because my Camaro already has one
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
@@msracingcomponents6550 I have had many F Bodies with that exact TQ arm and LCA relo brackets on Radials, stick to the track and get after it. These were a mix of Afco Big guns, Penske 7500's, and Santhuff rear shocks, along with some strong extension valved front shock to keep the front down. A couple of the cars had limiters on the front to keep front end travel to around an inch. If I remember correctly, the quickest 60 foot of these cars was 1.12 and the slowest on a small tire slick was 1.27 to the 60. The 1.12 had a bunch of weight removed and with driver my memory tells me the car weighed in around 2620 lbs. He later ran a 1.08 60 at a true radial prepped track, but had to tie the front end down to nearly no extension travel and 2" of compression travel. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Yes, spot on! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
I have a roughly 375whp fbody, 4000 stall, 3.73, stock ride height, and cheaper drag shocks set to 50/50. At that power level, is a short arm or long arm gonna be better for me? I run 26" radials both track and street. Ill be ordering some LCA relocation brackets here for sure at least.
At what point do you see the bolt on relocation brackets fail without welds? The bolt on BMR set that I have on my car (which isn't a drag car, I'm just using them to correct for lower than stock ride hight) came off of a low 12/high 11 second stick shift Camaro that a friend owned and had no issue with them.
Using grade 8 hardware these are pretty durable actually. Most of the cars I tune are in the 8 seconds and faster in the 1/4 mile. I would encourage you to keep alert of maintenance on these bolts... bolts are cheap compared to the results if these bolts fail. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Building a 4th gen F body right now as a dedicated 1/8th mile radial car. Rules allow stock type or ladder bars. Is there going to be better performance from the ladder bars?
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. If it has a stock TQ arm running radials, we are really not in a good position for the radial tire. The stock TQ arm is just to neutral for a radial. Also, remember what I said to do with that stock TQ arm once you remove it? For a radial, it is almost a must to have a shorter, stronger, quality race quality TQ arm with a dedicated crossmember and multiple front hole mount options. BUT, to answer your question without much info on the car, I would put the rear LCA bolt in the lowest hole on the rear relo bracket to create the suspension lift I discussed in the video, then take video of the car launching and evaluate. Even then you will need to likely slip the clutch a good bit to keep from going into immediate tire spin. Hope this answers your question. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
been watching these videos religiously. Question for you and hopefully you see this and can point me in the right direction have a car that was set up for a slick and has gone 1.31 60ft on a slick. i am now running it on a 275 radial pro and it feels like it is hitting the tire super hard then bouncing back up. LCA's are in the bottom hole, car is stock height, spohn pro series torque arm. single adjustable (i know) qa1 shocks. Should i move the LCA up 1 hole (like 2-4 degrees of lca angle) then stiffen the rebound on the shock? best i have got so far on the radials is 1.42 60ft. the car separates super quick by the pics and vids i have. if i can get the 60ft into the 1.3x range ill be in the 9's quarter mile. thank you
Would lengthing the lower control arm hurt how the car works? I'm talking about moving the front factory hole forward 4inches. Currently running 1.08-1.09 sixty at 3150#
On my third GEN Camaro Weld on LCB Umi subframe connectors and I just ordered on the 7th of January BMR torque arm #XTA001 that welds to the subframe connector and I have umi Panhard bar and Lower controller arms My question is. Will the BMR torque arm work? Or do I need to get different one
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Looking at that part number, I don't have any concerns with it not working. You should be good, just focus on a quality installation and good welds on the crossmember to sub-frame connectors. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
25:52 You mention “if you blow the tires on the hit and you’re at a prep track to lower the lca on rear bracket” wouldn’t this apply even more to a non prep like virgin asphalt?
Yes, to a point, but power management is a must in these situations to allow you to shock the suspension, then control wheel speed until you have the tire planted and maintain that controllable wheel speed. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBCIf I would want to make a fbody wheelie on a virgin asphalt, I can only adjust the lca point to get the instant center closer to the front or to the rear. Which one do you want to see to make a car more wheelie happy? I do know that moving up is not moving forward and it would get me a slower et, but just to understand this a lil better
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! Kevin Wilson KevinWilsonSBC
The video description has all the links.. Personally, depending on the power levels I would ping Merillat Racing for their relo brackets. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I didn't find anything at Marillat racing for the chassis. But I did find a Universal torque box for the chassis at Tin Soldier racing. Thanks for the help and keep up all the hard work.
With a shorter pro style tq arm, raising the mount point helps promote rear separation working with the lower control bars... lowering it helps take Anti Squat out of it.... in stock form, not too much really as the length keeps it fairly neutral. The LCA relo's are so, so important the F Body.... Even if you stay stock length on the tq arm, I do prefer solid mount, and aftermarket replacement with strong adjustable joints. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thank you. I’ve been trying to get mine to work better. Car has been a 1.24 on prep and no prep. But for top end style or racing it struggles.
He needs to make a cliff notes version, cut out all extra info, stay on point, when people drone on and on … I can no longer pay attention to anything being said … This video is probably amazing but I just couldn’t get through it … Zzzz
*Please consider a thumb up on this one! Please consider subscribing if you are not. Those two things are free.* :-)
_OK I absolutely butchered the pronunciation of Spohn… forgive me and don’t kill me too bad in the comments! I was really tongue tied in this video so bare with me._
Anyways…. Let me know what is missing on F Body Torque suspensions Part II, and if need be, I will make a Part 3 to answer all of your questions. I am absolutely committed to helping as much as I can with these videos. It is my hope, to give you enough information in these videos, for FREE, so you can take it and run with it on your own drag cars. A racer who knows the suspension of their drag car, is a more successful racer, informed racer, and SAFER racer!
I am not able to keep up with providing detailed and thorough responses to everyone's emails, Facebook messages and UA-cam comments, so please understand. However, I read all of them, and eventually respond. I am prioritizing paying customers to the top of the list, which is only fair. I will eventually get to you, but please hang in there. I have had a few people really cuss me out, and call me every name under the sun, for not responding as fast as they felt I should by dropping everything and giving them my full attention. Guys, I had no idea when I started this, that it would grow to this level.
From the heart,
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
samsonperformance.com
Thanks alot for the videos. You help me alot on understanding suspension tuning/geometry. I got an 87 firebird and a 98 s10 I'm building so your leaf spring and f body vids help a ton.
@@currybuiltperformance6206 you are absolutely welcome! Glad to hear they are helping. Good luck on your builds and stay in touch! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
KevinWilsonSBC
27:43 is the greatest part of the video aside from the wealth of knowledge and info. Keep up the good vids man, this will no doubt help me on my stock suspension fbody deal.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. I was getting excited about it.... LOL. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBCman I was just reviewing this video again and was gonna comment the same thing I did a year ago on my other UA-cam account. Have you done a video on torque arm no prep/bare road stuff?
Excellent advice in both of these videos ! Ive been racing a 3rd gen camaro for 20yrs now and have learned alot . Goes fairly consistent low 1.2x 60’ at 3800 lbs these days . I agree w/ everything youve mentioned w/ the exception of automatically going to a shorter torque arm . All my experience has been w/ the long version from Bmr in combination w/ their turbo 400 trans crossmember w/ dedicated frt torque arm mount that is adjustable also . Wish this info was around 20years ago , had to learn all of this the hard way , by trial and error . Its amazing how even changing rear ride height just a 1/2” will throw everything out of wack if not compensated for . When they r right , they work great , when they are not , they dont even try to work lol !!! Love to see someone much smarter than me give it some love and put it in black and white so its easier to understand and make sense . As far as the argument of wether moving the frt of the torque arm up or down from stock makes any difference , in my car , it definitely does , seems to affect how far out it keeps the leverage on the chassis . One way is more bite earlier , and the other is less initial bite , but has it a little further out with my car using a long torque arm . Excellent job on these videos !
This is one of the best comments I have read in a long time!!! I see your point on the longer tq arm also. Each car is so unique, but I see your point and I love it!!! Thanks so much, Nick, for taking the time to write this!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Good one man. Like the chalk board.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Thank you for your help. Looking forward to working with you 👍
great informative videos. running a F body over here in New Zealand it is hard to find someone over here that has knowledge on f body torque arms etc, I have already gone a 1/2 second quicker with just minor mods i have learnt from you.
Right on! Great job!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
I hardly know what a f body is, but I got some good info out of this video for my opel rwd with volvo rear axle! Great video! 😊
Brilliant Advise,so important for our new F body build,Thank you
Thanks for the video and info. I'm working with an H Body "78 Sunbird 4-speed car", and many of these principles still apply. Keep up the great videos.
Great information Kevin! The only issues that I see with short torque arm is that on 3rd gens they don't have the mounting points farther back like the 4th gens. In order to use a short one on a 3rd gen it needs a bar running from each side connected to the subframe connectors which in turn causes exhaust clearance issues on a street car. I've had a long spohn torque arm on my car for over 15 years. It's connected to the transmission crossmember. The car now has DA AFCO's and LCA relocation brackets and Spohn adjustable anti roll bar now. Can't wait for spring to get back to the track.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Good points and thanks for sharing your thoughts! I bet works very well! Keep me posted if you don't mind please. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Not if it a turbo car! Lol
@@jason7475 that can be true due to fender well exhaust. Lol
The factory torque arm actually mounts in a rubber bushing that is captive in a clam shell that is bolted to the side of the tail shaft of the transmission. There are aftermarket kits that mount it to the transmission crossmember. Midwest chassis sells a kit that uses a mid length arm with a dedicated weld in crossmember for the third generation cars. I have one In my car that has helped my car a ton, it creates separation in the back without being too violent like a short arm. My issue has been trying to slow the separation and up the tire pressure enough to stop the tire shake from wading up the slicks. Thanks for the video, as always your a huge help!
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. While I have setup the kits that mount to the transmission crossmember, I much prefer the shorter torque arm with dedicated chassis crossmember. But I am focused on full drag cars more than street cars. What shocks are you running on the rear? Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC I dont have the part number off hand, they are qa1 doubles that are designed to fit in the stock mounting location. Still using a stock location spring. I believe similar valving to the DD series. All hiems, the torque arm in my car is shorter but not 36 inches. I measured it and lost that book of measurements. I need to re-measure it all before spring.
@@chrislynn2076 If they are not the mod series QA1 shocks, I bet you are running right past the shock valving depending on your car's HP and TQ. Anything above 400 HP in my opinion means you need to move beyond the QA1 DD series off the shelf shocks. This article is a great read I really recommend: www.penskeshocks.com/blog/top-5-issues-impacting-your-drag-racing-suspension-performance and this one: www.penskeshocks.com/blog/monotube-vs.-twin-tube-shocks-which-is-best-for-performance
Regardless, thank-you for supporting my channel! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC it is possible, I will look into that. Thanks for your time and these videos!
Kevin I love the videos. I gotta say I’ve got no idea how my 3rd gen is hooking like it does. I’ve got full length UMI torque arm (crossmember mounted), UMI hiem joint LCAs mounted in the lowest hole on a trick chassis 9”rearend with a set of $20 Gabriel replacement shocks in the rear and a set of totally blown out original 110,000 mile struts on the front. UMI adjustable antiroll bar in the rear and this thing dead hooks 1.3 60fts on a 26/10 MT pro bracket radial. I’ve been wanting to goto adjustable coilovers front and rear but I see all these guys at the track with 2 way and 3 way adjustables and short torque arms on the same chassis and can’t get their cars to 60ft for shit. Basically it’s scared me off of changing anything until I start actually running into problems. I mean, you can watch some of my videos and see my front comes up and goes down way faster than ideal, and it’s definitely because of the stock blown out front struts, but it’s working so far and to be honest I have no idea WHY it’s working so well. This is the 6th 3rd Gen I’ve owned in my life and they’ve always just worked for me for some reason even though I admittedly don’t have a lot of technical knowledge of how the suspensions supposed to work. 🤷🏼♂️
I would not change a thing!!! This is a great post and many can learn a bunch from it as it is all about the entire combination with the gearing (rear and trans), along with power levels and power adders, and surface prep. You didn't share too much about if you are foot braking or leaving on a transbrake and you didn't share your HP/TQ at the engine. The long torque arm is very forgiving and the current LCAs are a great combination based on certain gearing and power output. If I made any changes, it would keeping the front end under better control so it comes up, but stays up a tad better. I bet it has more 60' left in it. The rear double adjustable shocks will become more necessary around the 1.19 and quicker 60' times IMO. Thanks for leaving this comment! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Leaving off transbrake. Cars making just over 900 at the crank based on weight/mph. So far it’s been 5.80 in the 1/8 on 18lbs of boost. Planning to turn it up this spring. Hoping for mid 5s on current setup. I’m definitely not changing anything out back until I start having issues but I’m really considering going to some adjustable coilovers or at least adjustable struts up front to slow the front end down. I’m afraid to leave in more that 5-6lbs of boost because the fronts coming up so fast.
Awesome stuff man thanks I learned alot
Thanks for the information on the fbody suspension. Hope to be putting this to use soon on my car. Waiting for the heads now. Have a midwest chassis fab 9 with 40 spline gun drilled axles, 2 piece torque armand viking shocks on all 4 corners. Axle shortened 5 in per side. Midwest chassis pro ARB. Can't wait to play around with this stuff!
Very nice!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Mybad i miss the 2nd video. I thank you on the relocation lower control thing idel. Im staying Stock suspison small tire 2000 z28 grudge racing. Ima do everything i can with staying true Tq are stock sus. Ima watch your video now . But thanks Jr. God Gm Ls Lt FTW.
Great channel!! Thanks for the information on the f-body!!
Thanks so much for leaving a comment!! Appreciate you being a subscriber!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Great video. Lots on info in this that worth a lot. Thank you very much. Lots of questions answered
Thanks so much @RJ_BoostedZ28 and I appreciate you supporting this channel! If I missed anything let me know... I will keep making them until we cover it all. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Good stuff Kevin. Thanks!!!
Great video! However I do respectfully disagree, you can calculate the instant center of a torque arm. The torque arm is only a lifting force, so the instant center length is always the length of the torque arm. The IC height is the line where the LCAs go thru the vertical line from the TA. Also moving up the TA mount only changes the pinion angle, nothing else.
Also, if you put the torque arm on the passenger side of the axle, you can eliminate any chassis twist from driveshaft torque. I had a friend do that in an S10, and he had it too far on the passenger side, and the passenger side tire always came up first!!!
Absolutely, in the purest form of IC you are 100% correct. Like I shared in many of my videos, IC is just a point of reference to understand changes and the results those changes make. IC is definitely most applied to 4 link setups. Having that said that, what I discuss in this video is simply a point of reference from which you can make changes then test. You always have your changes documented, even if you choose to move the mount point from center to passenger side. Thanks for commenting!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I couldn’t agree more! Its all theory until the tires hit the pavement!
Great information & glad to see you using the chalk board again too. One question: at 750hp level & less, full Spohn setup w/short arm, all welded-in vs. going back-half 4-link setup - you feel there's worthwhile #'s to be gained on the boards? What hp level you feel back-half is worth the investment? What if it's a manual man's-mission?
Just wanna say the information you share doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated. Thanks again for listening to your fans with this video and no hurry with my question, whenever you have time is fine. For the price of free you charge for all this great info I'll never complain, lol! 😉🏁
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted.
At 750 HP you would definitely benefit considering more of a 4 link back half in my opinion. If you are like most of us, you will just keep adding more power in the never ending pursuit of another .1 of second in the 330 or another 10 MPH at the strips. However, a 4 link back half is a big investment and bunch of fabrication costs, if you are not able to DIY it.
The full spohn setup with welded LCA relo's will definitely work and keep the car still an "F Body type suspension". The shock valving on this has to be solid as it will have separation, too much actually, so having a shock that can "hold" the hit is critical, along with tuning with LCA angles and TQ arm locations. For example, checkout this car and read the comments... now this is extreme and there is much more going on all around this chassis than is revealed, but it can be done: fb.watch/aAxUq0Uj8y/
*** not sure if youtube will flag my reply with it including a link, so please let me know if you got this reply ***
Thank-you for your closing comments! It means alot to read that. It makes all the work that goes into planning these videos, shooting the videos, editing the videos, and uploading the videos to UA-cam, worth it. I am really a 1 man operation as I don't hire out any of my work. I am rambling... Have a good night!
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Thanks Kevin, really appreciate your response. The link worked for me & that Camaro is definitely doing work!
My son & I are getting into no prep racing.I've played with bracket racing f-bodys on & off for awhile. To teach him I'm putting him in my 2000 Camaro Z28, 6 speed, lowered 1.5" with the full Spohn chassis kit & short torque arm already installed (except the k-member upgrade) & 4.10 gear, still need DA shocks for it. To help him fully understand & grasp the importance of chassis tuning we're starting at the track with a 375hp LS and working him up to blownn 1200hp as he learns how there are no magic go-fast parts it's having the total combination working in unison goes straight & wins races, not just adding stupid levels of hp to mask lack of chassis tuning knowledge that only wads up the tires and fights ya down the track. The most interesting racing videos to me are in-car shots, watching how much shake they experience & how much they have to steer the car when attempting to go down a straight line.
Again truly appreciate your time and help, can't wait till the track opens! Be safe & God bless!
Another great video Kev! Keep them comin 🤙🏼
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. @kevinnagle You are one of my most active subscribers and that means a bunch!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Any thoughts on coming at this from a 275 radial car approach? I think I have a grasp on what's going on here and where a radial would be happy but more information the better. I'm just starting to figure out 60ft changes to make the car work. Made 954 whp on the dyno at 33 psi, track has seen 38 psi. weighs 3600 lbs and been 8.64 at 160 with a 1.29 60ft. I think with some work I can get a 1.teen or 1.23 60ft. Fastest 1/8th was a 5.52 at 127 with a 1.27 60ft.
Thanks, I have been waiting for this one 👍Great channel.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC When would it be reasonable to use chrome moly/docol on these suspension parts. At a given ET or powerlevel? I guess this would be negative for the cg?
@@79blackbird1 anytime the budget allows for chromoly I would opt for it... above 500 HP I would go chromoly bars and heim joints 100%. This is why I stress weld on LCA relo brackets so much. That LCA is under EXTREME compression loads. I don't understand your last sentence though, so I apologize. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!!
@Kevin Wilson thanks. Last sentence: will Lighter parts down low have a negative effect on center of gravity?
@@79blackbird1 that depends, but on a drag car for track you are good... no prep, even light parts are critical on placement... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Nice video I run a 1987 Firebird with BMR suspension I have the long torque arm. My best so far is a 1.24 60 ft and 5.83 in the 1/8. NA SBC. I am on a radial I find your videos educational.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Very nice running Firebird!! Appreciate the shoutout. Please email/message me some videos of your car or some web links, so I can share your ride and your success on my social media. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
@@KevinWilsonSBC barry brooks racing on UA-cam. Thanks again.
@@barrybrooksracing6982 LCA relo brackets? I am sharing your last video!!! Congrats on the PB! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC yes relocation brackets. Ford 9 in rear 3.89 gear. Around 650 hp.
Great info. I recently ordered all Spohn for my 86 firebird. However I didn't go with the shorter torque arm
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Pair that with the LCA relo brackets and you will be fine. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
what's everyone thought on these (620-21700) Lakewood Traction Action Lift Bars 1982-2002 Camaro/Firebird? I've used these in the past and was a big change on how the car would launch. I also used a short torque arm the mounted to the drive shaft tunnel and that too was a huge difference. I don't see anyone use these control arms anymore.
Great videos Kevin. Really appreciated. I would like to ask your thoughts on watts link for centering with a drag car. Only reason I would ask is because my Camaro already has one
Thank you Kevin! 👏
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
I have the Spohn pro series torque arm but have not used it yet. I’ll comment of my findings after going to the track in the spring. Very nice piece!
@@msracingcomponents6550 I have had many F Bodies with that exact TQ arm and LCA relo brackets on Radials, stick to the track and get after it. These were a mix of Afco Big guns, Penske 7500's, and Santhuff rear shocks, along with some strong extension valved front shock to keep the front down. A couple of the cars had limiters on the front to keep front end travel to around an inch. If I remember correctly, the quickest 60 foot of these cars was 1.12 and the slowest on a small tire slick was 1.27 to the 60. The 1.12 had a bunch of weight removed and with driver my memory tells me the car weighed in around 2620 lbs. He later ran a 1.08 60 at a true radial prepped track, but had to tie the front end down to nearly no extension travel and 2" of compression travel. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Rear Spread also influences hit
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Yes, spot on! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
I have a roughly 375whp fbody, 4000 stall, 3.73, stock ride height, and cheaper drag shocks set to 50/50. At that power level, is a short arm or long arm gonna be better for me? I run 26" radials both track and street. Ill be ordering some LCA relocation brackets here for sure at least.
At what point do you see the bolt on relocation brackets fail without welds? The bolt on BMR set that I have on my car (which isn't a drag car, I'm just using them to correct for lower than stock ride hight) came off of a low 12/high 11 second stick shift Camaro that a friend owned and had no issue with them.
Using grade 8 hardware these are pretty durable actually. Most of the cars I tune are in the 8 seconds and faster in the 1/4 mile. I would encourage you to keep alert of maintenance on these bolts... bolts are cheap compared to the results if these bolts fail. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Building a 4th gen F body right now as a dedicated 1/8th mile radial car. Rules allow stock type or ladder bars. Is there going to be better performance from the ladder bars?
Hey Kevin what length should the top of the torque arm adjuster be set to, on a lowerd street car 1.2"
Curious what you would do differently if it was a stick car, radial with just lca bolt on relocation kit.
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. If it has a stock TQ arm running radials, we are really not in a good position for the radial tire. The stock TQ arm is just to neutral for a radial. Also, remember what I said to do with that stock TQ arm once you remove it? For a radial, it is almost a must to have a shorter, stronger, quality race quality TQ arm with a dedicated crossmember and multiple front hole mount options.
BUT, to answer your question without much info on the car, I would put the rear LCA bolt in the lowest hole on the rear relo bracket to create the suspension lift I discussed in the video, then take video of the car launching and evaluate. Even then you will need to likely slip the clutch a good bit to keep from going into immediate tire spin. Hope this answers your question. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Hey Kevin hope you are doing well. I have a question for you. Is there a company that makes a 4 link for the 4 Gen Camaro?
Thanks! Unfortunately, that would likely be custom fabrication. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
been watching these videos religiously. Question for you and hopefully you see this and can point me in the right direction
have a car that was set up for a slick and has gone 1.31 60ft on a slick. i am now running it on a 275 radial pro and it feels like it is hitting the tire super hard then bouncing back up. LCA's are in the bottom hole, car is stock height, spohn pro series torque arm. single adjustable (i know) qa1 shocks.
Should i move the LCA up 1 hole (like 2-4 degrees of lca angle) then stiffen the rebound on the shock? best i have got so far on the radials is 1.42 60ft. the car separates super quick by the pics and vids i have.
if i can get the 60ft into the 1.3x range ill be in the 9's quarter mile. thank you
I would need so much more info, but you really need a "radial" tuned rear shock to keep control of the rear end. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Hi Kevin, Is a ladder bar set up better than cal track traction bars?
Would lengthing the lower control arm hurt how the car works? I'm talking about moving the front factory hole forward 4inches.
Currently running 1.08-1.09 sixty at 3150#
It depends... give me some more info on why you are considering this change?? Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
On my third GEN Camaro Weld on LCB Umi subframe connectors and I just ordered on the 7th of January BMR torque arm #XTA001 that welds to the subframe connector and I have umi Panhard bar and Lower controller arms My question is. Will the BMR torque arm work? Or do I need to get different one
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Looking at that part number, I don't have any concerns with it not working. You should be good, just focus on a quality installation and good welds on the crossmember to sub-frame connectors. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
25:52 You mention “if you blow the tires on the hit and you’re at a prep track to lower the lca on rear bracket” wouldn’t this apply even more to a non prep like virgin asphalt?
Yes, to a point, but power management is a must in these situations to allow you to shock the suspension, then control wheel speed until you have the tire planted and maintain that controllable wheel speed. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBCIf I would want to make a fbody wheelie on a virgin asphalt, I can only adjust the lca point to get the instant center closer to the front or to the rear. Which one do you want to see to make a car more wheelie happy? I do know that moving up is not moving forward and it would get me a slower et, but just to understand this a lil better
Thanks
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Thanks good content
Thank-you so much for taking the time to leave a comment and for supporting my channel! I don't take your views and support for granted. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin Wilson
KevinWilsonSBC
Kevin where can we get the lower control arm relocation bracket for the chassis?
The video description has all the links.. Personally, depending on the power levels I would ping Merillat Racing for their relo brackets. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I didn't find anything at Marillat racing for the chassis. But I did find a Universal torque box for the chassis at Tin Soldier racing. Thanks for the help and keep up all the hard work.
@@dirtysouthstreetcars9007 Tick performance now makes one. ua-cam.com/video/kghMjcXHgvY/v-deo.html
So what would moving the front mount on the torque up or down from neutral do?
With a shorter pro style tq arm, raising the mount point helps promote rear separation working with the lower control bars... lowering it helps take Anti Squat out of it.... in stock form, not too much really as the length keeps it fairly neutral. The LCA relo's are so, so important the F Body.... Even if you stay stock length on the tq arm, I do prefer solid mount, and aftermarket replacement with strong adjustable joints. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thank you. I’ve been trying to get mine to work better. Car has been a 1.24 on prep and no prep. But for top end style or racing it struggles.
He needs to make a cliff notes version, cut out all extra info, stay on point, when people drone on and on … I can no longer pay attention to anything being said …
This video is probably amazing but I just couldn’t get through it …
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