I mean DTC brands are amazing and they are bringing so many kids from my school to the sport but a lot of them don’t know how to wrench on bikes and yes I know that’s not always the case and a lot of people choose to buy it bc they know how to wrench on bikes but luckily we have brick and mortar sponsors and we have so many shops in Utah within a 5 - 10 mile radius. But a PB review Between a Canyon Spectral and the Ibis Ripmo AF showed that even at the same price (which yes this is rarely the case so it’s pretty rare) the 3k bikes had almost the same spec but the fact was the Ibis rode better is every aspect and a higher quality attention to details with frame welds and seat tube angle etc. But I think a healthy mix of DTC and Brick and Mortar stores will make a good future, btw great video
I'm probably in the minority but these business videos are my favourite part of this channel. It's a part of MTB the general consumer doesn't get to see a lot of the time.
@@WorldwideCyclery Jeff keep it up. I think you are giving more people courage to get out there and do something on our own. Your example of no college and learning from trial and error is great. We need more of it! I know I have used some tips I have seen you guys use in your marketing in my own ecommerce business.
I recently opened up a Bicycle Repair shop after working as a mechanic for 7 years. I think the Demand for bicycle repairs will still live even with consumer direct taking over.
I agree with you. Brick and mortar stores are going to reach a point with the prevalence of Consumer Direct bikes where they will be forced to adapt and work on CD bikes. They're eventually going to have to eat their own words and work on CD bikes because of the growing market of CD owners who need 'professional (bike shop)' repairs. Separately, why is the burden on the consumer to pay more for retail bikes in order to SAVE the MTB retailers and progress the sport? It's a bullshit argument created by retailers to protect their product and regurgitated by fans of retail bikes and shops. If they've been so keen on progressing and attracting new people to the sport, maybe they shouldn't have been pricing out a huge portion of potential consumers by large mark-ups for the last decade. The prevalence of the CD bike market is a direct result of those actions.
I agree with you, especially with eBikes. In Italy, I took my bike to a bike repair shop, whereby that is all they did and did not even get involved in sales. The problem with that model, maybe even more so now with Ebikes is whether the bike shop does have in fact qualified individuals to repair the bikes, more so if the shop is only a one or two-person shop and the proliferation of different bike components. It turns out my Italian bike repair shop was not technically qualified to fix my noise click shifter...leaving me with a shifter with no noise.
@@kylehagertybanana some bike brands require their own dealers to even keep the warranty. Scott for example is 3 years limited or a full 5 years if serviced yearly at a Scott dealer.
Especially since bike tech and design is getting WAY more complicated then it used to be: hydraulic disk brakes, internal routing, all the different axle, BB, headset standards.... i have built or completely rebuild almost every bike i and my family have ever owned and sometimes I must look at a job on one of my bikes and have to ask WHY!?!?!?!?!?
The guys at my LBS are arrogant. They don't even try to hide it. That made me buy a book and learn how to repair and build bikes. Having that knowledge makes consumer direct a no brainer. Taking a CD bike to the LBS would be like smoking in a ICU ward.
Thats a shame, I have had that at some bike shops but the good independents I am lucky enough to have nearby me don't judge you for your cycling choices. The ones that are welcoming to new riders and are humble and without judgement will still be there in 10 years time.
Although frustrating I'm sure, that LBS you're referring to sounds like flat out bad luck. Are there not other LBSs in your area? I know here in Sacramento, I have like five to chose from, and have gone to each for different services.
I've run into many bike shops that are arrogant and treat you as if you the biggest fool ever or act like jerks with you. I make a note of it and never go back. I'm sure many others do the same.
@Wilderness Music any product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. to add to the thread, in the city i moved out of recently, there were 3 bike shops. all were like the OPs lbs. arrogant basically acting like wannabe surfer dudes bragging about all the places they've ridden, giving no time to anyone who was bringing in bikes that cost than $3-5k+ regardless of where it was bought. even if you wanted to buy a bike they wouldnt pay any attention unless you were at the top of the line section and constantly refused to honor their own promos and warranties. one even deliberately damaged a bike i was purchasing (the bent the dropdown and derailleur hanger, i saw the marks where they hit it with something) and they said it would need a new derailleur and tried to upsell me to a top of the line xtr at 3x markup over retail. i bent the frame and hanger back myself after getting 3 months of runaround starting the first day i had it, then went to online bike shopping and never looked back. been happy so far
I'm torn on this even thought I now own 2 Canyons - road and mtb. Value for dollar there is no comparison. I don't know what resale values will be, but when you get this much for your dollar, it's hard to go back to a retailer. Unfortunately, this trend will undoubtedly impact the shops that try to hold the line - just as Amazon and others have killed the department stores and Home Depot and Lowes killed the local hardware store. The differentiator will be service. Shops with strong service departments, customer service, and a client focused attitude (eg group rides, events, etc.) will evolve and adapt.
Lack of service in what’s left for brick and mortar isn’t helping their survival. I don’t really order online. But I running out of places that will order something for you in even a month... never mind the overnight of amazon or wherever.
Resale value of SC, Trek, Specialized is way worse than anye other brand. Theire customers jump on every Trend and sell theire hardly used stuff for cheap. Good luck selling your extensive stuff lol
@@kyleslater5245 agreed! If the so called threatened LBS wants to survive they gonna have to pull up their socks and deliver absolutely implacable service or down the drain theyll go.... Thing id\s though they just wanna whine about it but not willing to go the extra mile
I shop Worldwide because of the owner, employees and customer service. I like knowing my money is going to a good company with outreach and pushing our sport forward. It is an important topic because it effects all of us!
I think the truth needs to be told. Bike shops need to evolve. The price of even mid level bikes is getting our of control. If bike shops can't evolve to stay competitive and relevant then too bad.
yebbut, how much cheaper is the similar Canyon? Maybe 3500 instead of 4000 for a similar bike? Not a lot of wiggle room there . OTOH there are some deals out there at bike shops, esp at the end of the year , or just msrp Giant brand bikes which are great bikes. A friend of mine just bought a Giant Stance 29 for like $1800 usd, which is a bona fide trail bike, full suspension and reasonably equipped for riding the rough stuff (just need to add a dropper!). Sometimes a lot of folks would be fine on such a 1800 dollar bike instead of the 7000 dollar bike they now ride too.
The thing is the bike shop doesn’t set the prices. The manufacturer does. It’s a minimum advertised price industry basically. The company comes out and says this bike is $1000. That’s the price the shop has to put on it. It can choose to take less if an offer is made, it can choose to mark up more which rarely ever happens. The margin is also set up on such a way where the shop pays an amount that doesn’t allow much wiggle room on the price. Maybe 10-15% if your paying cash and your a regular customer. What the bike shop can do is offer amazing service, and a good selection in store, they can’t do much on pricing.
@@frantic299 I worked in the bike industry here in Canada. I know top of the line bikes went from 5k USD to more than double that in a span of 10 years. I also know that average mark-up from manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer to consumer is about 25-30%. The highest top of the line complete bike costs around $2,000 USD to manufacture. WTF is it sold for $12k+?
Marek Zmazur What you say may be true. I doubt it but maybe. Fact remains the manufacture sets the price l, not the bike shop. The bike shop can control service and stock levels, pricing on certain things is probably their call, but when Shimano or SRAM something is to be advertised for x amount and trek says that bike is to be sold for that amount then that’s what they do. You are probably right on the markup from distributor to retail being 25%-30% and that is not much.
@@frantic299 the last bike i thought about buying at an LBS had an msrp (Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price, which includes the cost of the shop to acquire and transport the good and still make a profit but it is only a suggested price, the shop ultimately sets the price) of $500 back in '09 and the LBS was selling it for $950. LBSs absolutely *DO* add to the price tag. they never sell at cost. that simply doesnt make sense to do but then neither does an 80% markup *OVER* msrp (absolutely excessive, needless to say i went elsewhere) nowadays since there are plenty of other options.
Good video... As someone who has spent 20+ years in this, here's my thoughts. .. Everyone has been freaking out about the consumer direct brands for years... They aren't going to take over completely. Even Canyon has stated that they would be happy with a 2% market share. I think it comes down to the fact if they get too big, they have to start taking over some of the services a good LBS provides. I know Canyon let's you send in your bike for service in Europe, But, the reviews I've read on that have been less than stellar. Also, I've noticed the prices creeping up on the consumer direct bikes... They still have paychecks to write on payday. .. As for the LBS, they have to change with the times... The days of simply opening the doors and fixing and selling bikes are gone... You have to do more... Start by looking at what the internet can't do and go from there. .. Finally, the click and collect programs the Giant and Trek offer aren't terrible for the dealers... Ye, the margins to the shop are lower, but they are still making something and that customer still has to come into the store and get the bike... I usually pickup a couple of add on sales at that time... Retail is an ever changing environment and the bike shops have to evolve with it.
I think there is room for both brick and mortar and direct sales. If you are a more experienced biker and know what you want and how to turn a wrench, save money and go direct. If you are a casual biker and maybe need more support for your hobby support your local LBS.
motorboy1966 I've been in this biz forever. There is zero profit in selling to racers. Every one of them is loyal to their own wallet. Until, their direct sales order gets botched, then they want the local technician to repair it for a Sixpack of beer.
@@pavanatanaya Any competent person can learn to wrench a bike, almost every component you need is available online with next day delivery, and a half decent set of tools costs as much as a few trips to the local bike shop. There may be no money to be made from racers, but the consumer isn't to blame for being financially responsible. Customers don't like bike shops because a lot of them seem to survive on up-selling people and trying to bamboozle novices into buying carbon super-bikes.
We need local bike shops. I love my local bike shop, I like the guys that work there. Sadly our local shop became a factory store for one brand that eliminated variety, the ability to have brands with different geometry under the same roof. If the only geometry on sale does not work for you then tough luck.
Someone still has to service the bikes no matter where You buy it. Plus all of the supporting gear. Bike shops are also cool places to meet up for rides, and learn about local trails when You are traveling.
I do service My own bikes,motorcycles, and cars. A lot of people do not. If I vacation farther than driving distance, it is nice to stop by a local shop to rent a bike. Plus You get local trail knowledge, and a tasty craft brew!
Randall Mason can’t argue with you there. However I’ve stopped in to rent bikes looking to purchase if I liked them and they said oh we don’t do that anymore. The fuck? On their homepage of the website it says “rents full line of Santa Cruz mtb’s). Anyway I’m over bike shops and their sub human service and so called “mechanics”. Only one shop I trust. And they sold me a bike two sizes to big long before I knew about bike geo. Me thinks I probably should steer clear of them too. I’m 5’6 and they sold me an XL sized frame. C’mon. Thank god I don’t need a bike shop. Ever.
Bought my Trek Fuel 9.8 last month here at the Trek Bike Store in Raleigh Nc. Beautiful store, awesome employees...don’t get me wrong, I buy a ton of shit online. I guess I’m not ready to spend almost $6000 without being able to test ride and and have that place I love to stop in and chat with fellow enthusiasts👍 call me old school😀
Super fair point. I feel much the same but I think I've gotten to the point where I can do so because we have such a plethora of data/reviews on some well known direct to consumer bikes. I bet a majority of beginner and intermediate riders feel the same and will continue to smartly lean into their LBS. My last LBS in Charleston, SC (of all places for MTB) was fantastic. I loved that team there and had them do work for my bikes and my friends as well.
@Arthur Feitosa If someone wants to buy a $6k bike, that's their choice. No different than people spending a ton of money on lift kits for their trucks and they never go off road. You might see it as wasting money, but you're not the one spending it.
I just bought a trek marlin 5 for $550 (tax not included), which is full retail. I feel like I paid too much for it just considering that before covid it was common to get maybe around 10% off? Bought some parts for my bike and had to split the purchase because of commission for new bike and commission on parts. Totally turned me off. So now considering a bike for my other daughter (jealous). I'm gonna look at Canyon and looking to buy parts direct too. Thanks for a great video.
I've bought multiple Treks, Devinci, Diamondbacks and now have a YT. As I know how to work on my own bikes, the online model just makes sense. Also the resale market on bike shop bikes like Trek is garbage, Good luck getting a fraction of what you paid for a bike a year or so down the road if you want to sell it. It's like buying a new car. It loses about 40% of the value when you drive it off the lot. Lets also not forget about sales tax, my YT Decoy was $4999 out the door plus $100 shipping. No sales tax. Gotta love that.
Da pruf is in da pudin....MTB and cycling in general has skyrocketed in the last few years...the new models work well and everyone is benefiting. The shops are enjoying a lot of service, parts and accessories business the brands are selling more bikes, and consumers are paying less...is all good 👍👍👍
Bought a canyon, rides great, amazing value for the spec, a few qc issues. I've been burnt by way too many brick and mortar bike shops, I do all my own service and if I need parts or expert advice, I reach out or place an order with worldwide cyclery. Best! Hands down. Having the owner and creator of the company appear in all of these entertaining and very educational videos really makes me want to support them. These guys get rad, they know what's up. You can see it in their UA-cam channel all the time. Much harder to say about Jenson or CRC. Keep killing it!
This is the evolution of overpricing mtb from years past to today which left the door open and pigeonholing themselves with the birth of direct consumer brands. If these consumer brands never were born/possibility of their price point working, where would pricing be at in ten years without DC brands? 15-20k for an mtb???
joerapo I think so as well. Before the internet business models big brands could really charge whatever they wanted and the only choice you had was buy their bikes at the local bike shops. Now with years of price increases the internet opened the door for more options for the consumer at the same time prices for mtb were skyrocketed. Perfect storm to let competition in and hold the big brands accountable for their pricing over the years. Big companies might have to start making more of their own products now to keep prices in check. Seems like a factor these bikes are so expensive is because every part is made by a different company which has a mark-up and increases cost. Be interesting to see what happens in the future. 🤷♂️
I'm a very experienced cyclist, mechanic, and bike fitter. I pretty much have a full bike shop in my basement. I'm loyal to my LBS because they are just so incredibly involved in the local scene and 100% committed to building the community that it just wouldn't feel right to buy from someone else. That being said...... I'm not loyal to the store - I'm loyal to the people who work there.
I think having the option of a less expensive bike through consumer direct will help grow the bike industry. I personally bought a consumer direct bike and paid thousands less for it with the same tech than I would have buying from brick and mortar. Cutting out the middle man saves money for the consumer.
Well put sir!! Poor customer service, lack of knowledge from some shops, and down right rudeness pushed me to do my own research, buying, and building. I will admit there was a learning curve that was eventually straightened out by a torque wrench, adherence to the included component instructions, and much patience. I have built aluminum, carbon, steel, and titanium framed bikes with no warranty issues. I also learned to build wheels with great success thanks to you tube. One thing about doing my own wrenching is that I am never satisfied. I am always on the hunt for that frame, fork, wheel set, or whatever from the trusty D2C site. Keep the wheel side down!
when i bought my first real expensive MTB i could have gone for a canyon but went for a Trek. The only real bike shop on the small island where i live is a trek dealer. I got 3 free services and used them all. Lifetime warranty on the frame and i got peace of mind if something happens. Wont have to ship it to germany to get it fixed. I'll never buy a bike online to save a little cash (The difference is really small nowadays)
I like the options - One reason I like WWC so much is that you have a great model for your business - b&m with a great online presence. Your brand also stands for an authentic love of the sport. These are things I want to support as a consumer.
From business guy to business guy your approach is right on. Competition keeps you sharp and on your game. You're forced to evolve and think outside the box. The ones that choose to be angry and just take part, will eventually be taken over! No matter what business you're in customer service is king I have seen that disappear immensely over the years. I have ordered, called and emailed WWC plenty of times for tech questions and have always been amazed at the customer service and keeping me in the know, that alone in my mind is what separates WWC from the rest. Dnt get me wrong I'm not kissing anybody's ass, I just appreciate how you guys do business, I will continue to support as much as possible 🤟
So I worked in a bike shop, for 1/4 of a year between school and university and it was a very interesting and fun job. The shop I worked in charged 100 - 200 Euros on out of the box bike assembly of Consumer direct bikes and most people gladly took that deal, as these were mostly rather high end bikes. Granted I worked in a rather wealthy area (Frankfurt am Main), where people can afford to let the bike shop do everything. I was working there to finally get a really good bike and personally had bikes like the YT Capara or the Propain Spindrift on my mind, this changed, as my boss gave me a really sweet deal on the Fuji Auric 1.3 LT from 2020. I'm so glad I took it, because I got more value out of that, than going with any consumer direct brand (this will probably be a viable solution for the least amount of people tho)
Jeff, I appreciate your transparency. I have been in e-commerce for a long time (going on 10 years) and I really admire what you have created with WC! Your attitude reminds me of the saying "High tide raises all ships." Thanks for sharing your opinion, and self-taught education, more people need to hear this way of thinking to break old habits that aren't benefitting them!
JTMarlin8 Lol! That’s funny. I opened my bike shop in 2006 and have continued to grow every year except 08-10 (recession in the US) We just had out best year in 2019. I’ve been in MTB advocacy locally since 2001 and have helped create my own market and continue to do so. Good service and good customer service is where LBSs need to excel to stay alive but it still isn’t easy and we’re not getting rich.
Love this business stuff! "The more things change, the more they stay the same." ... Giving the consumer more value for their money, no matter how, will make money. 🤙
Who's the Worldwide Cyclery movie nerd extraordinaire? I'm always impressed that, regardless of the topic, someone can think of a relevant film clip to add to the video. In my experience, direct to consumer brands are great. As long as the bike is pretty much 100% when the consumer receives it and remains that way within the warranty period. Having to raise a problem with the manufacturer and ship a bike or a faulty component somewhere. Then wait for their: diagnosis/decision/repair/replace/return is far more hassle and slower than just returning it to a bricks and mortar shop and having them deal with it. Although, that's assuming that all LBS are equal, when they're not. Some feel like once they've got your cash, then any problems are between you and the manufacturer rather than the consumer and the LBS. If you're spending your hard earned with an LBS, then they should absolutely go to bat with the manufacturer on the consumer's behalf.
As a CPA, I would say this is one of your best videos! Jeff you're the man for diving into this topic as unbiased as possible. This is why I shop at Worldwide Cyclery!
Choices, choices and more choices, I much prefer, when buying a bike, to pay more and trust my LBS, having used the same 2, both don't sell the same ranges, for 9 years I 'm not willing to sacrifice that loyalty and customer service for a mail order brand, plus I'm not into Canyon or YT.
Your open mindness on the evolution of business is exactly what will allow you to thrive and prosper, it allows for necessary adaption of change. This was a surprisingly well articulated video on the current status of business and the things business owners have to deal with along with the rapid changes that time brings.
I only owned consumer direct brands, but I like the idea of a bikeshop. Truth be told, here in Germany mountainbiking is too small for bikeshops to "survive". Without really being able to get in touch with a good bikeshop, the better price is always winning... just because of money, not because of will. I'd love to have a bikeshop close and although I can fix everything from suspension service to all bleeding etc. by myself, I'd love the social aspect of visiting a shop for a tyre e.g. but well... there is none!
LBS can combat online sellers by having big stock. They have immediacy and convenience on their side. The service aspect is huge too. DTC lacks a sense of community by comparison.
Big stock means lots of capital sitting on the shelf. Big inventory takes big money so you have be sell a ton of stuff to keep that kind of inventory. The hybrid model like World Wide is the only way you can hold that type of inventory without going under.
My kids race BMX which is mostly done online and you better be handy with tools if you want a dialed bike. Most sellers like J&R do have volume, others just ship directly from WPS or the like.
DTC doesn't have to kill the LBS, if the LBS would change their business model from selling bikes to providing high quality services at a fair price. I would still go to a LBS with my DTC bike and pay for bike service & professional consulting.
Interesting video, I'm seeing a paradigm change in what a successful bike store actually is. Many bike stores already don't carry many bikes, bikes are low margin, take up a lot of capital (especially if your carry full size runs), and are high risk (once a model is over a year old your going to have to discount it to sell it), same thing with shoes. I think as times progress most shops will have to concentrate on bike repairs and service (You can't Amazon that) and high of course lower cost high profit high demand items such as inner tubes, brake pads, etc. Also having more community involvement, such as group rides, and having a couple of taps in the shop for after ride beers can bring in extra revenue and maybe lead to some impulse buys.
I have a background in the camera retail industry. It's very much the same...people think there is a ton of margin, but it's very minimal on most of the camera body and lenses.
My bike shop hooked me the hell up! Multiple times as a matter of fact.(I bought 3 bikes in less than a year lol)..if I had ordered direct online, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten these deals from Specialized. Plus it's nice being able to see the bikes in person and be able to hop on them.. I don't think I would have gotten into shredding if it weren't for the bike shop!
I bought an Intense when they were shifting their focus to direct to consumer and got a good deal at the time. There are no local Intense dealers in the WI area, so it made sense to not go through a LBS. My sideline observation is they pissed off a number of dealers when they did this because they immediately reduced their prices. I've noticed in the last year they seem to be trying to repair that relationship and do both direct to consumer and sell through bike shops. To your point about profit margins being tighter, I've also noticed their bike prices increase ~$500 for their models (same frame costs that much more). I am not sure if that is tariff-related or the need to offer more profit to the bike shops they are trying to now sell through (probably a mix of both). In the end, they absolutely did the right thing to sell direct to consumer (had to do it to survive).
I wasn't always able to buy new high end bikes and wish I had the options we do now. The prices and service ive seen in this industry needed a reality check. Those two things are why I ended up buying used and working on my own bikes. In turn thats why, for the first time in 15 years I purchased my first new bike. Brick and mortar need to up that service game because thats where its going to count.
Kudos to you guys for not only embracing change but accepting it and educating the consumer. You can't fight and prevent the change but you can acknowledge it. Your approach will attract those who see it, yet value the LBS relationship, and they will simply come to you guys because they enjoy the relationship and perhaps you sell products they prefer. With your approach, even consumers who thought they preferred the direct model, will still be drawn to working with you guys because of your honesty.
Good video. I run an electric bike shop. Used to sell and work on everything, but my shop was full of random bikes waiting on parts from China for weeks to months. Have since gone one brand, local warehouse, great quality, and limits confusion in choosing a bike. The E-bike game is selling to retired boomers who haven't ridden a bike in 30 years, great demographic. However in e-bikes you must specialize on a brand. Maintenance is focused on electrical problems more than mechanical. Which is why I sell one quality brand, they don't come back in my door with problems, unlike sub $1000 e-bikes. If they do warehouse is local, and bikes get fixed next day. Sold a bunch of brands over the years and in e-bikes, Online helps, but a local shop is essential for fleet maintenance. Just like a car dealership.
In regard to YT specifically, I fully agree they make rad bikes. The downfall to them is if you break something, or need warranty parts, it often takes months to get these issues sorted. I think for the money vs spec, direct to consumer can’t be beat. However, There is definitely comfort in knowing you can go down the street to your local shop, put in the claim, and have your (new) bike back within a couple weeks and be back out on the trails! Certainly an interesting topic, and at the end of the day I guess it comes down to personal preference. Keep up the good work bro’s 🤙🏻
The dealership business model is a dying one. Same thing is happening in cars with Tesla, and other areas of the economy. Millennials and Gen-Y (the people who are ripe to spend money) buy based on sorting and filtering (aka online, look at WC's success;) and the product with the features they want. Any dealership-model bike company that doesn't have click and collect is doing their shops more of a disservice than I am buying a Commencal. The brand era is over. The dealership era is over. Supply chains are efficient, consumers are informed, prices come down, and more people get to ride. ✌️
Although I agree with your core message I dont think you can compare the car industry with the bike industry at all. The idea of a dealership for bikes maybe true but I dont think it is for things like cars. Yes it works for Tesla, at least for now, but that is the exception because people who buy Teslas are the same people, who buy enthusiast level bikes. The difference being, that almost everybody at some point owns a car, so it is more of neccesity for all people not just enthusiasts. Bikes that are worth more than 800€/$ are predominantly, or at least to a relatively large degree, bought by people who are somewhat interested in bikes, and would therefore be able to finish the Canyon bike they ordered. Further I don't think the brand era is over, it has just started look at tesla, look at apple, look at supreme, people would buy a turd with the brand logo on it, or in supreme's case a fucking brick.
@@KapitanPisoar1 but thats why it works well for bikes: people who spend that kind of money will most likely not need to visit the lbs for service very often, because you can do everything on them yourself. Of course they won't take over completely, but I think they will dominate the enthusiast market
DerFurz you seem to be under the impression that driving isn’t becoming an enthusiast activity as well. At least in the US ride sharing, bike infrastructure, rent-a bikes, and those scooters are all making the need to drive far less prevalent. This is especially true in cities, and that’s were people seem to be moving. Manufacturers have been struggling, severely, to get younger people to buy, because the consumers are not exited allot of the cookie cutter people movers that used to be their bread and butter. Tesla works because they are cars for enthusiasts that people can get exited about, on top of killing it, using tech company marketing techniques. Ask any real car guy about the quality of Tesla products. They’ll tell you it’s not great. Ask Tesla drivers if they care, the answer is no. How could FCA still work when all their products are low quality, simple; enthusiasm and marketing capitalizing on enthusiast. Honestly, if GM saw this writing on the wall, they would’ve dropped Buick and kept Pontiac. Might still have products worth buying. Probably why Hummer is coming back as an EV.
@@macmurfy2jka But it isnt. Look how many ..boring,, cars VAG sells and how many Porsches. Tesla buyers are mostly logo bitches, but Tesla just does not sell alot of cars compared to the big names in the buisness, who sell mostly non-enthusiast grade cars. Tech-company marketing is fine on the small scala Tesla is operating but VAG just couldnt pull it off because they have a bigger, non-enthusiast market to deal with. Cars are expensive, so people have more of a need to try the car before buying it. Tell some random joe who doesnt suck Elon Musk's cock, or any other companies, that they can buy one of two cars in the same class. One they can test-drive and one thay cant. One has good parts availability one hasnt. Which one do you think he would buy?
With bikes there is one problem. Major manufacturers do not deliver rideable bikes. gears won't be well indexed in most cases. Brakes won't be centered. And less important they are not fully assembled. Manufacturers including the german one i rent out need to improve their final checks if they want to deliver straight to customers.
I bought a YT, great bike, great value.. when i needed some work done on it, i took it to LBS and I think ultimately he will make more margin than YT would servicing it for me. Message to brick and motor:keep offering good service and support no matter what the bike and you will be fine!
I'm a baby boomer who has seen a few shops close their doors because the owner retired or lost the passion. The thin profit margin made a perpetuation plan impossible. As long as the passion for bicycles survives so shall the LBS. Just wish I had the bicycles being made today when I was younger.
I don't support local bike shops. I support *good people* that run local bike shops. 👌 Shops that offer good service and act as a social hub/meetup place will always be part of biking. I think that DTC bikes did a great job shaking up the industry and getting brands become more efficient with production. That said, I do worry about it becoming a race to the bottom and brands may cut corners to undercut the competition on the showroom floor.
My two most recent bikes were shipped to my door and I assembled them myself. I do go to my local LBS for accessories because they’re friendly and it’s good to have a good bike shop in town. And my friends, even if they buy online, will go to their local shop for maintenance. Local retail is really hard. Everything I’ve read says that you have to create a community and experience, not just a transaction. I know one place in DC that has free yoga on Mondays. And organized rides are key too. But you also need to look at new revenue streams. I wish I had the guts to make a go of it.
I think local bike shops will have to lean more on being part of the community. These shops you see with a restaurant and beer on tap become a place you can go hang out while they wrench on your bike and you maybe have a few beers and impulse buy some stuff. The shops like that and the ones that give classes on how to fix your bike are the ones that have that whole package where a person is willing to pay a little more. On the other hand an online shop like WWC that will help you find the right part that fits and basically be everything your local shop was before. Aside from being able to walk in, WWC’s model will be the standard for online. You guys rock. Great stuff in this video. I like hearing your point of view. 👍
Excellent topic, brilliantly presented, clear, yet detailed. Good humour too. Love how open minded you are, not biased and giving a balanced view. One point - I bought a Canyon, used their online sizing guide as I was unsure looking at geo chart. Bike was good (2017 Spectral) but was a bit tall in the stack height, and a little short in cockpit. I now have a Giant that I was able to sit on and lbs let me ride (only on the street, but better than nothing). Fits me better. So if you’re in between sizes, online can be a bit of a gamble.
I like my local bike shop and dont mind paying few dollars extra on some things because I know I'm gonna get top notch service from them plus if I have any issues warranty wise they will handle it. Just my 2 cents worth.
Love this video. The reality is that the value of buying from a local shop is greatly diminished when you wrench on your own bike. Those of us who have the skill and tools to pull a bottom bracket, change out a cassette, true a wheel, etc. get very little very value from our LBS after the bike sale. We usually are only in the shop once to buy the bike and a second time for the "free tuneup" where we learn that we can do as good or better a job tuning up the bike ourselves. But I would never steer someone who is inexperienced with bikes or has no inclination to wrench on them to a direct to consumer company. The LBS gives them services they need to buy the correct bike for them and set it up and maintain it. An LBS will size the bike correctly, build it and set it up optimally for the rider, and also be there for after sale service. I think most people fall into this category. This part of the market will always be there. Buying a bike "direct to consumer" assumes you know about reach, standover, and frame geometry to be able to select the bike that is sized properly and meets your goals as a rider. That's something that only the more serious and experienced riders are going to possess. These riders are the ones who are going to be inclined to look to the Internet to get a higher spec'd bike for the same $$$ as a lower end one from an LBS. My LBS might not get my bike sales but they get my $$$ for all of the other stuff like helmets, lube, chains, etc. and I try to steer people their way when I think that they will benefit from the services a LBS can provide. I have no problem supporting a local business by paying a little bit more than I can get things online, but when I'm saving hundreds or a thousand dollars more to buy the same spec'd bike at an LBS, I know where my money is going. YMMV
In my opinion direct to consumer brands are awesome. You can own a top bike spending 5.000/6.000. And to be honest when the bike arrives to your home it’s already built, you only have to instal the front wheel, the dropper, and tight your bars. And you still can go to shops to get big mantainance jobs. The only issue is dealing with warranties if you have a frame crack, you will have to wait longer to get your bike back on the trais.
No ones innocent here. Big box brands put out substandard, poorly built product all the time. Whoever focuses on their product, has a good control of manufacturing processes, and high standard for design, build quality, alignment, tolerances, customer service etc. Will get my money at the end of the day. Make good shit! all of you! Yeah I know it's hard to do all of that with the volumes you're trying to put out! Make it happpeen. We all win if you do.
I buy a lot of stuff on line, but my local bike store will match online prices for parts, apparel, etc. So I like to buy stuff from them - they still make money as they are paying wholesale! Keeps everyone happy!
The e-commerce model is missing the value of being able to touch/feel/inspect, find the right fit, and even test ride a bike before buying. I never impulse buy online but I have a couple of bicycles and motorcycles and cars that I technically did not need but after a quick spin.......
Most motorcycle dealers will not allow you to ride before you buy. You can sit on them in the showroom though. Or watch reviews online. You do get to touch it though.
Mmmmmm... I disagree. These brands can easily supplement that with a scheduled demo somewhere fun to ride and many if not all do this already. A "quick spin" around the parking lot bouncing on the suspension isn't going to give an experienced rider any idea of how a bike truly handles. That's going to take multiple laps on varying trails in a park which they'll likely get from doing a demo ride. Last year I rode 12 different bikes and a rental during Crankworx. Also, any experienced rider is going to have a pretty good idea on whether or not it's going to fit them based on the bikes geometry specs. I've purchased 6 bikes (road, cross, and MTB) without test-riding any of them and I really haven't gotten a bike yet that I regretted. Other friends too.
Thanks Jeff for such a great video. I enjoy both online and retail stores in my opinion. It’s nice to have people to speak to on the products, not necessarily only for bikes. And it’s for the consumer to go online and do more research to learn it more and judge by their own capability if they are able to “service” it themselves or need help from a retailer. Hats off to the local bike stores with excellent customer service and knowledge because they keep us going back to the sport. I own a Cervelo R5 myself and the Cervelo store I go to in Singapore is amazing. Ultimately, it’s about the service of the store which really makes a huge difference, but the business model needs to evolve. Kudos, great content.
I bought a YT a few years ago and never looked back. Pay $4-5k more for a similarly spec'd box brand? I'm done doing that. And - never, ever had a problem with local bike shops not wanting to make their hourly service rate working on my YT when needed. I've been a HUGE fan of YT's business model and stellar marketing. Great video Jeff. You seem to be a lot like YT in your innovative, consumer centric marketing approach. I dig you guys as an online mtb seller WAY more than another online retailer. (although shout out to Competitive Cyclist for their great customer service ) You get it Jeff - you get how many a mtb rider thinks and you get what we want. Love the videos, the humor, and how forward thinking y'all are. Kudos.
My LBS is cool with all bikes. I bought a used Evil MB Following and brought it in for service and all the guys were stoked to check it out. They serviced it quick, and for a pretty penny. Everyone was happy
Jeff, as I’m sure you know, your UA-cam content and openness makes me want to order products through Worldwide Cyclery. It’s working and I don’t mind admitting it. Keep up the good work.
I seriously appreciate your transparency and I love your videos. There are some great things about a local bike store, but non-standard config is not one of them. For example, if I want a better dropper than comes with the standard SB115, their solution is that I just buy the one I want and sell one that came with the bike. Simple, right? Very simple... I bought one online that allows for customization.
I’ve never really thought about it to be honest. I’m from the uk and I bought an orange stage 6. You can buy them from certain bike shops or direct. I just assumed they would give them to the shops way cheaper so I bought mine from a shop plus you can go to a shop and sit on one and get a feel for it. Canyon and yt demo days seem to be few and far between around here. I like all the hand made in Britain stuff from orange. Bike shops also sell commencals here in the uk
This video is really well done, and informative. But here is even older history: Back when my parents owned a bike shop (74-87) the model also included a wholesaler in between us and the manufacturer. Back then most of the middle to premium bikes were only available from European bike makers, and so it was suited to importer-wholesalers. A few of the wholesalers would sell their own brand bikes in addition to the imported ones, then new bike manufacturing companies like Trek and CDale and Speclizd came along to sell directly to bike shops.
I think they are good for the Industry, it pushes the lbs to do better. I have bought bikes in the shop, but i do All my own work, so these days i have a 2019 YT Jeffsy CF27 Pro Race, and a Vitus 29VR hardtail, both consumer direct.
KapitanPisoar1 It pushes Them to better service, more knowledge, better inventory (not more, better), better online presence and much more. All Of Them crucial things if you want to keep doing good. Of course Price is also a factor, but in the end, the collected experience trumps pricing.
The LBS model is dying bcuz the manufactures are pushing all the financial risk on the retailer. Every year shops have to commit to a huge lump purchase. In regards to components, there is just no way LBS can compete. In regards to service, well you have the whole spectrum between HS kid and old school riders. Most of them have shitty customer service skills.
Bought a Canyon a few weeks ago. I have ALWAYS loved the look of their bikes, and their "direct-to-customer" business model; pricing was key as well. Ordered the bike online after calling and talking to one of the CSR's about fit. Received the bike in the mail, and it was super easy to assemble! I've very happy with my purchase. When I'm ready, I may buy a road bike from Poseidon Bike for the same reason(s). Great video!
There will always be a clueless cyclist, and they will crawl to bike shops just to have them lube their chains, so I think bike shops are more so gonna be service, and not sales.
In Europe, there's a new trend in bike shops growing. A boutique bike workshop which will create a bike of your dreams for you. You can have a frame that suits you and painted in the colour of your liking with the components you want (these guys are competent and can correct your mistakes when matching components). Most of them aim at the "urban bikes" which are more of a lifestyle statement, but I've seen shops building custom gravel bikes too. These places often stem from independent shops (re)selling second hand "utility" bikes for commuting. As they often needed to fix something in bikes they had, they have grown expertise in repair and components matching evolving into making their own bikes from competent they buy on-line for low prices.
I have always loved local bike shops and supported them. However, the variety at a bike shop is rather small for the most part at small bike shops. On the west coast I have seen stores that are huge with a massive variety of high end MTB brands and models to choose from ( Santa Cruz, Yeti, Evil, etc etc). However, where I am in NYC we don't have the options those places have in terms of variety (unless you are into road bikes). Therefore, to get what you want, you most likely will have to order online. I would still support them for service though 100%
Awesome discussion man. This dude gets it. If at least half of the bike shops that went out of business in the last decade had this mindset they most likely would have evolved and would most likely still be in business. Cheers
Great video I am the same way I like to see how it evolves. Plus, bike shops aren't going anywhere in my opinion. me personally I like going to bike shop so I can get Hands-On with the bikes and talking to people about the product who know more than I do to get me fitted with the right bike.
I loved this video! For my most recent bike, I was torn. I really liked the Santa Cruz Mega Tower. I liked it a lot. But I kept coming back to Fezzari. I liked what I was seeing and reading. I ended up on a La Sal Peak, and I love it. Fezzari has great customer service, and more importantly, I was able to mix and match components and get exactly what I wanted. The end result is a GREAT feeling bike with an interesting mix of XX1 and XO1 drive train, CODE RSC brakes, in a solid carbon bike that only cost me $4600 delivered. My next bike will likely be the YT Decoy CF Pro Race E-MTB, over the Specialized, strictly because of the value.
I brought a cascade peak from fezzari by far the best value. Now, I live only 100 miles from the shop so I picked up in person. Customer service and price no one could beat
The problem with bike shops is that they are ignoring their biggest money maker when whining about consumer direct bikes. The biggest money maker for LBS's and any other brick and mortar bike store is clothing and accessories, they have insane margins. Having worked in the industry in multiple different cycling retailers and suppliers, the margins on accessories and clothing is stupendous, commonly between 30-75% margin and you sell CONSIDERABLY more of those products than you sell bikes, and it is FAR more common for someone to buy from a physical shop when it comes to sports clothing, shoes, helmets, accessories etc, since they can actually try them out. Here in the UK brick and mortar stores have ridiculous margins on "big brand" bikes like Giant, Specialized, Trek etc. One bike shop I worked in a few years ago, that won't be named, was not allowed to include Giant in any of their sales events unless Giant was putting the bike on sale and granting permission for the price to be lower. As far as I was aware, this was due to Giants requirement for bikes to be sold with a minimum of 30% profit margin, which on bikes is absurd. Specialized and Trek had a similar tactic and its easy to see plenty of their bikes in the £500-£5000 range that pushed 20-30% margins. Decathlon is another company that does direct to consumer since they design, test and manufacture all their own bikes the last I checked. The margins on their bikes are tiny, anywhere from 1-10% for the vast majority of what they sell, and it really shows when they are selling road bikes and mountain bikes for £1000 or less with better equipment than some bikes at £2000. At one point when I worked there almost 10 years ago now, they were selling an entry level road bike at no margin at all, in-fact they lost 1% margin on EVERY single one of those bikes they sold in the UK, but they didn't care because the bike was so good and so cheap that people bought loads of accessories with almost every bike and it more than made-up for the losses. In the EU they weren't losing money on those bikes because the shipping cost was lower than to the UK, so again they weren't fussed, they sold literally hundreds of thousands of those bikes across the 2 years they were on sale and regularly ran out of stock during the summer months with 2+ month waiting lists for hundreds of customers at a time. Local bike stores here in the Uk don't help themselves by being completely elitist as well, the vast majority of LBS's I've visited are staffed by complete bike snobs who don't care about anything thats not at the top end.
One way for the retailers to react is to switch focus to service. A lot of stores give you attitude if you bring in a bike, for repair or maintenance, that isn't a brand they sell. That has to change. My LBS is awesome about that. They sell plenty of brands, but are happy to work on anything that comes through the door and make money on service, replacement parts, and component upgrades. Another idea would be for the direct brands to allow warranty, replacements, and set up to be handled through LBS's. That opens a lot of doors for everyone. The customer can save $ by buying direct, the brand appeals to a wider consumer base (people who don't work on their own bikes) and the LBS makes money on set up and service.
The business will keep evolving....it is up to the brick and mortar stores to innovate and get creative to keep a customer. Additionally, providing better overall service will set you apart from the rest. Great informative video!
I have very few Bike shops in my area and personally I hate them! Not narrow this down to a single experience, but the last straw was when I decided to go tubeless on my race-bike. I rode up to the shop walked in and explained to the guy I wanna go tubeless. All I said was that I wanna go tubeless and that Im here at his shop to buy everything I need to do the job. This guy had a different idea though... he tries to convince me its a bad idea because my rims are going to rust to pieces (keep in mind though that im riding DTSwiss carbon rims) when I told him this he then tries to humiliate me in front of another customer saying that hes seen it all before and if I wanna risk it I shouldn't come and cry to him later.... well the rest is history..... As far as Im concerned I only enter a Bike-shop if I Im out and there happens to be one in the direct vicinity and even then its only to rummage through the bargain-bin. As far as im concerned they can all go suck eggs... I now do my own research online and buy what I need without having to deal with amateurs. Oh and now own 3 Canyon bikes...
I've have seen local bike stores change to compete with the growing competition to provide better experience to the consumer. They are much more involved with demo rides, group rides, training classes on MTB skills, social media and supporting funding for local trails.
Buy the bike you want, From who you want. I like supporting my local bike shop “Jax chino hills” dudes are awesome.but if I find a sick deal on any brand bike you Bess believe ya boi buying it.
Not pissed off with your video, you are talking from your heart. It's the truth, good to hear from someone who loves the bike trade, it's a great job - to serve the local committee and do something you enjoy win win. We are in changing times and brands are hedging their bets. I talk with a lot of bike shop owners as some are busy and not making any money as it has high service costs to run a bike shop. The high street is closing in the UK, sure it is the same. Together we can help more people to cycle and enjoy riding more. The top brands don't have the national coverage to offer click and collect, people are looking for the best price and not all so loyal as they use to be. Do the best job and give advice and cyclist will come back or tell their cycling buddies. There is more option now, online, shop and mobile service plus DIY
Great topic. You pretty much noted all the important aspect of the different models. I find the macro analysis the most interesting. What is all this doing to the sport/hobby long term. Aside from that, it all depends on the customer. How much $$ you have, how self sufficient are you, what are you looking for. That is a broad spectrum, many times driven by location.
Although I have purchased one bike online (a YT because my local bike shops don't really carry big travel bikes), I try to buy local because the bike shops support kid's riding programs, the high school bike team, and building and maintenance of local trails. YT and the online brands don't do anything local. That is worth a lot to me.
I think there’s room for both options. I work in a bike shop and we sell the big brands but I can still get killer value on a brand like YT which is actually the next bike I’m getting. The component spec can’t be beat on a top end YT compared to some of the big brands. To get the same spec it’s a $3-5k price jump. Side by side
What are your thoughts on direct to consumer bike brands? Let us know below!
i think they are awesome because you dont have to visit any shops to buy them:)
they are awesome
Excellent topic..much appreciated guy's 😎😎😎
I love my Canyon Spectral!
I mean DTC brands are amazing and they are bringing so many kids from my school to the sport but a lot of them don’t know how to wrench on bikes and yes I know that’s not always the case and a lot of people choose to buy it bc they know how to wrench on bikes but luckily we have brick and mortar sponsors and we have so many shops in Utah within a 5 - 10 mile radius. But a PB review Between a Canyon Spectral and the Ibis Ripmo AF showed that even at the same price (which yes this is rarely the case so it’s pretty rare) the 3k bikes had almost the same spec but the fact was the Ibis rode better is every aspect and a higher quality attention to details with frame welds and seat tube angle etc. But I think a healthy mix of DTC and Brick and Mortar stores will make a good future, btw great video
I'm probably in the minority but these business videos are my favourite part of this channel. It's a part of MTB the general consumer doesn't get to see a lot of the time.
I agree lol
Thanks Duncan! I really enjoy making them as I'm kind of more of a business nerd than a bike nerd. But don't tell anybody that 🤓
@@WorldwideCyclery Jeff keep it up. I think you are giving more people courage to get out there and do something on our own. Your example of no college and learning from trial and error is great. We need more of it! I know I have used some tips I have seen you guys use in your marketing in my own ecommerce business.
I recently opened up a Bicycle Repair shop after working as a mechanic for 7 years. I think the Demand for bicycle repairs will still live even with consumer direct taking over.
I agree with you. Brick and mortar stores are going to reach a point with the prevalence of Consumer Direct bikes where they will be forced to adapt and work on CD bikes. They're eventually going to have to eat their own words and work on CD bikes because of the growing market of CD owners who need 'professional (bike shop)' repairs. Separately, why is the burden on the consumer to pay more for retail bikes in order to SAVE the MTB retailers and progress the sport? It's a bullshit argument created by retailers to protect their product and regurgitated by fans of retail bikes and shops. If they've been so keen on progressing and attracting new people to the sport, maybe they shouldn't have been pricing out a huge portion of potential consumers by large mark-ups for the last decade. The prevalence of the CD bike market is a direct result of those actions.
I agree with you, especially with eBikes. In Italy, I took my bike to a bike repair shop, whereby that is all they did and did not even get involved in sales. The problem with that model, maybe even more so now with Ebikes is whether the bike shop does have in fact qualified individuals to repair the bikes, more so if the shop is only a one or two-person shop and the proliferation of different bike components. It turns out my Italian bike repair shop was not technically qualified to fix my noise click shifter...leaving me with a shifter with no noise.
People still have to fix their bikes and likely arent gonna be shipping it back to the manufacturer every single time
@@kylehagertybanana some bike brands require their own dealers to even keep the warranty. Scott for example is 3 years limited or a full 5 years if serviced yearly at a Scott dealer.
Especially since bike tech and design is getting WAY more complicated then it used to be: hydraulic disk brakes, internal routing, all the different axle, BB, headset standards.... i have built or completely rebuild almost every bike i and my family have ever owned and sometimes I must look at a job on one of my bikes and have to ask WHY!?!?!?!?!?
The guys at my LBS are arrogant. They don't even try to hide it. That made me buy a book and learn how to repair and build bikes. Having that knowledge makes consumer direct a no brainer. Taking a CD bike to the LBS would be like smoking in a ICU ward.
Thats a shame, I have had that at some bike shops but the good independents I am lucky enough to have nearby me don't judge you for your cycling choices. The ones that are welcoming to new riders and are humble and without judgement will still be there in 10 years time.
Although frustrating I'm sure, that LBS you're referring to sounds like flat out bad luck. Are there not other LBSs in your area? I know here in Sacramento, I have like five to chose from, and have gone to each for different services.
I've run into many bike shops that are arrogant and treat you as if you the biggest fool ever or act like jerks with you. I make a note of it and never go back. I'm sure many others do the same.
@Wilderness Music any product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
to add to the thread, in the city i moved out of recently, there were 3 bike shops. all were like the OPs lbs. arrogant basically acting like wannabe surfer dudes bragging about all the places they've ridden, giving no time to anyone who was bringing in bikes that cost than $3-5k+ regardless of where it was bought. even if you wanted to buy a bike they wouldnt pay any attention unless you were at the top of the line section and constantly refused to honor their own promos and warranties. one even deliberately damaged a bike i was purchasing (the bent the dropdown and derailleur hanger, i saw the marks where they hit it with something) and they said it would need a new derailleur and tried to upsell me to a top of the line xtr at 3x markup over retail. i bent the frame and hanger back myself after getting 3 months of runaround starting the first day i had it, then went to online bike shopping and never looked back. been happy so far
after getting my bike buggered at two different shops I bought a bike stand and never looked back
I'm torn on this even thought I now own 2 Canyons - road and mtb. Value for dollar there is no comparison. I don't know what resale values will be, but when you get this much for your dollar, it's hard to go back to a retailer. Unfortunately, this trend will undoubtedly impact the shops that try to hold the line - just as Amazon and others have killed the department stores and Home Depot and Lowes killed the local hardware store. The differentiator will be service. Shops with strong service departments, customer service, and a client focused attitude (eg group rides, events, etc.) will evolve and adapt.
Well said, John!
Lack of service in what’s left for brick and mortar isn’t helping their survival. I don’t really order online. But I running out of places that will order something for you in even a month... never mind the overnight of amazon or wherever.
Resale value of SC, Trek, Specialized is way worse than anye other brand.
Theire customers jump on every Trend and sell theire hardly used stuff for cheap.
Good luck selling your extensive stuff lol
Makes sense and well said! The evolution of it all will be quite fun 😁
@@kyleslater5245 agreed! If the so called threatened LBS wants to survive they gonna have to pull up their socks and deliver absolutely implacable service or down the drain theyll go.... Thing id\s though they just wanna whine about it but not willing to go the extra mile
The market will decide.
Our fate
Hey karl ;)
Free market 👍
I shop Worldwide because of the owner, employees and customer service. I like knowing my money is going to a good company with outreach and pushing our sport forward. It is an important topic because it effects all of us!
Thank you so much for the kind words and support. You are the man!
I think the truth needs to be told. Bike shops need to evolve. The price of even mid level bikes is getting our of control. If bike shops can't evolve to stay competitive and relevant then too bad.
yebbut, how much cheaper is the similar Canyon? Maybe 3500 instead of 4000 for a similar bike? Not a lot of wiggle room there . OTOH there are some deals out there at bike shops, esp at the end of the year , or just msrp Giant brand bikes which are great bikes. A friend of mine just bought a Giant Stance 29 for like $1800 usd, which is a bona fide trail bike, full suspension and reasonably equipped for riding the rough stuff (just need to add a dropper!). Sometimes a lot of folks would be fine on such a 1800 dollar bike instead of the 7000 dollar bike they now ride too.
The thing is the bike shop doesn’t set the prices. The manufacturer does. It’s a minimum advertised price industry basically. The company comes out and says this bike is $1000. That’s the price the shop has to put on it. It can choose to take less if an offer is made, it can choose to mark up more which rarely ever happens. The margin is also set up on such a way where the shop pays an amount that doesn’t allow much wiggle room on the price. Maybe 10-15% if your paying cash and your a regular customer. What the bike shop can do is offer amazing service, and a good selection in store, they can’t do much on pricing.
@@frantic299 I worked in the bike industry here in Canada. I know top of the line bikes went from 5k USD to more than double that in a span of 10 years. I also know that average mark-up from manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer to consumer is about 25-30%. The highest top of the line complete bike costs around $2,000 USD to manufacture. WTF is it sold for $12k+?
Marek Zmazur What you say may be true. I doubt it but maybe. Fact remains the manufacture sets the price l, not the bike shop. The bike shop can control service and stock levels, pricing on certain things is probably their call, but when Shimano or SRAM something is to be advertised for x amount and trek says that bike is to be sold for that amount then that’s what they do. You are probably right on the markup from distributor to retail being 25%-30% and that is not much.
@@frantic299 the last bike i thought about buying at an LBS had an msrp (Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price, which includes the cost of the shop to acquire and transport the good and still make a profit but it is only a suggested price, the shop ultimately sets the price) of $500 back in '09 and the LBS was selling it for $950. LBSs absolutely *DO* add to the price tag. they never sell at cost. that simply doesnt make sense to do but then neither does an 80% markup *OVER* msrp (absolutely excessive, needless to say i went elsewhere) nowadays since there are plenty of other options.
Good video... As someone who has spent 20+ years in this, here's my thoughts. ..
Everyone has been freaking out about the consumer direct brands for years... They aren't going to take over completely. Even Canyon has stated that they would be happy with a 2% market share. I think it comes down to the fact if they get too big, they have to start taking over some of the services a good LBS provides. I know Canyon let's you send in your bike for service in Europe, But, the reviews I've read on that have been less than stellar. Also, I've noticed the prices creeping up on the consumer direct bikes... They still have paychecks to write on payday. ..
As for the LBS, they have to change with the times... The days of simply opening the doors and fixing and selling bikes are gone... You have to do more... Start by looking at what the internet can't do and go from there. ..
Finally, the click and collect programs the Giant and Trek offer aren't terrible for the dealers... Ye, the margins to the shop are lower, but they are still making something and that customer still has to come into the store and get the bike... I usually pickup a couple of add on sales at that time...
Retail is an ever changing environment and the bike shops have to evolve with it.
I think there is room for both brick and mortar and direct sales. If you are a more experienced biker and know what you want and how to turn a wrench, save money and go direct. If you are a casual biker and maybe need more support for your hobby support your local LBS.
motorboy1966 I've been in this biz forever. There is zero profit in selling to racers. Every one of them is loyal to their own wallet. Until, their direct sales order gets botched, then they want the local technician to repair it for a Sixpack of beer.
Local lbs wait... that means local local bike shop🤔
@@pavanatanaya Any competent person can learn to wrench a bike, almost every component you need is available online with next day delivery, and a half decent set of tools costs as much as a few trips to the local bike shop. There may be no money to be made from racers, but the consumer isn't to blame for being financially responsible. Customers don't like bike shops because a lot of them seem to survive on up-selling people and trying to bamboozle novices into buying carbon super-bikes.
We need local bike shops. I love my local bike shop, I like the guys that work there. Sadly our local shop became a factory store for one brand that eliminated variety, the ability to have brands with different geometry under the same roof. If the only geometry on sale does not work for you then tough luck.
Someone still has to service the bikes no matter where You buy it. Plus all of the supporting gear. Bike shops are also cool places to meet up for rides, and learn about local trails when You are traveling.
Randall Mason service the bikes? You kidding me right? Why don’t YOU service your own bike. Don’t need a bike shop for that bud.
I do service My own bikes,motorcycles, and cars. A lot of people do not. If I vacation farther than driving distance, it is nice to stop by a local shop to rent a bike. Plus You get local trail knowledge, and a tasty craft brew!
Randall Mason can’t argue with you there. However I’ve stopped in to rent bikes looking to purchase if I liked them and they said oh we don’t do that anymore. The fuck? On their homepage of the website it says “rents full line of Santa Cruz mtb’s). Anyway I’m over bike shops and their sub human service and so called “mechanics”. Only one shop I trust. And they sold me a bike two sizes to big long before I knew about bike geo. Me thinks I probably should steer clear of them too. I’m 5’6 and they sold me an XL sized frame. C’mon. Thank god I don’t need a bike shop. Ever.
Velofix.com and other mobile maintenance will disrupt one of the last strongholds of brick and mortar stores.
olson795 the name is wrong. Won’t work in America. No one here knows what Velo means.
Cheers for making a video that doesn’t just say “support your local bike shop”, it’s all about providing value to the consumer.
What about mobile repair/bike assembly businesses?.I had one come by the house and change my cranks and the price was competitive with a regular shop.
Nice to know you had a great experience, it's the way forward to work one on one with the customer
Let’s call this what it really is.
A shameless plug for your new product....A WWC BIG BALL OF WAX.
Bought my Trek Fuel 9.8 last month here at the Trek Bike Store in Raleigh Nc. Beautiful store, awesome employees...don’t get me wrong, I buy a ton of shit online. I guess I’m not ready to spend almost $6000 without being able to test ride and and have that place I love to stop in and chat with fellow enthusiasts👍 call me old school😀
@Arthur Feitosa ^this. 6k for a bike is absolutely ludicrous for the average weekend warrior or anyone else not on the pro level imho
Super fair point. I feel much the same but I think I've gotten to the point where I can do so because we have such a plethora of data/reviews on some well known direct to consumer bikes.
I bet a majority of beginner and intermediate riders feel the same and will continue to smartly lean into their LBS.
My last LBS in Charleston, SC (of all places for MTB) was fantastic. I loved that team there and had them do work for my bikes and my friends as well.
@Arthur Feitosa If someone wants to buy a $6k bike, that's their choice. No different than people spending a ton of money on lift kits for their trucks and they never go off road. You might see it as wasting money, but you're not the one spending it.
Carlos I agree, but a lot of us are out here shredding on rigs that cost less than half that with better group sets.
I just bought a trek marlin 5 for $550 (tax not included), which is full retail. I feel like I paid too much for it just considering that before covid it was common to get maybe around 10% off? Bought some parts for my bike and had to split the purchase because of commission for new bike and commission on parts. Totally turned me off. So now considering a bike for my other daughter (jealous). I'm gonna look at Canyon and looking to buy parts direct too. Thanks for a great video.
I'm glad you finally got around to mentioning that there is more than one way to define value. There is definitely value in having a good LBS.
I've bought multiple Treks, Devinci, Diamondbacks and now have a YT. As I know how to work on my own bikes, the online model just makes sense. Also the resale market on bike shop bikes like Trek is garbage, Good luck getting a fraction of what you paid for a bike a year or so down the road if you want to sell it. It's like buying a new car. It loses about 40% of the value when you drive it off the lot. Lets also not forget about sales tax, my YT Decoy was $4999 out the door plus $100 shipping. No sales tax. Gotta love that.
Atleast here in Michigan, Trek bikes hold their value extremely well
Thanks to covid i was able to get full value for my trek
Da pruf is in da pudin....MTB and cycling in general has skyrocketed in the last few years...the new models work well and everyone is benefiting.
The shops are enjoying a lot of service, parts and accessories business the brands are selling more bikes, and consumers are paying less...is all good 👍👍👍
Honestly, the more $$ I save on bikes, the more reinvest back into my quiver of bikes and new projects.
Bought a canyon, rides great, amazing value for the spec, a few qc issues. I've been burnt by way too many brick and mortar bike shops, I do all my own service and if I need parts or expert advice, I reach out or place an order with worldwide cyclery. Best! Hands down. Having the owner and creator of the company appear in all of these entertaining and very educational videos really makes me want to support them. These guys get rad, they know what's up. You can see it in their UA-cam channel all the time. Much harder to say about Jenson or CRC. Keep killing it!
This is the evolution of overpricing mtb from years past to today which left the door open and pigeonholing themselves with the birth of direct consumer brands. If these consumer brands never were born/possibility of their price point working, where would pricing be at in ten years without DC brands? 15-20k for an mtb???
Exactly. I don't think direct to consumers would have gotten much momentum without the price gauging done by big brands.
joerapo I think so as well. Before the internet business models big brands could really charge whatever they wanted and the only choice you had was buy their bikes at the local bike shops. Now with years of price increases the internet opened the door for more options for the consumer at the same time prices for mtb were skyrocketed. Perfect storm to let competition in and hold the big brands accountable for their pricing over the years. Big companies might have to start making more of their own products now to keep prices in check. Seems like a factor these bikes are so expensive is because every part is made by a different company which has a mark-up and increases cost. Be interesting to see what happens in the future. 🤷♂️
My Canyon torque cf 9.0 custom. Has the spec of a £8,000 bike for under £5,000 without the custom touches.
I'm a very experienced cyclist, mechanic, and bike fitter. I pretty much have a full bike shop in my basement.
I'm loyal to my LBS because they are just so incredibly involved in the local scene and 100% committed to building the community that it just wouldn't feel right to buy from someone else. That being said...... I'm not loyal to the store - I'm loyal to the people who work there.
This is music. To my ear holes. Reasoned and realistic! If I ever get to spend money on my dream bike... you guys will build it!!!!
I think having the option of a less expensive bike through consumer direct will help grow the bike industry. I personally bought a consumer direct bike and paid thousands less for it with the same tech than I would have buying from brick and mortar. Cutting out the middle man saves money for the consumer.
Well put sir!! Poor customer service, lack of knowledge from some shops, and down right rudeness pushed me to do my own research, buying, and building.
I will admit there was a learning curve that was eventually straightened out by a torque wrench, adherence to the included component instructions, and much patience.
I have built aluminum, carbon, steel, and titanium framed bikes with no warranty issues. I also learned to build wheels with great success thanks to you tube.
One thing about doing my own wrenching is that I am never satisfied. I am always on the hunt for that frame, fork, wheel set, or whatever from the trusty D2C site.
Keep the wheel side down!
when i bought my first real expensive MTB i could have gone for a canyon but went for a Trek. The only real bike shop on the small island where i live is a trek dealer. I got 3 free services and used them all. Lifetime warranty on the frame and i got peace of mind if something happens. Wont have to ship it to germany to get it fixed. I'll never buy a bike online to save a little cash (The difference is really small nowadays)
1000 $/€ on a bike that cost around 4000 is not a "really small difference"
I like the options - One reason I like WWC so much is that you have a great model for your business - b&m with a great online presence. Your brand also stands for an authentic love of the sport. These are things I want to support as a consumer.
I bought an Intense direct and have no regrets at all. I would purchase wherever I could the best product for the best price.
From business guy to business guy your approach is right on. Competition keeps you sharp and on your game. You're forced to evolve and think outside the box. The ones that choose to be angry and just take part, will eventually be taken over! No matter what business you're in customer service is king I have seen that disappear immensely over the years. I have ordered, called and emailed WWC plenty of times for tech questions and have always been amazed at the customer service and keeping me in the know, that alone in my mind is what separates WWC from the rest. Dnt get me wrong I'm not kissing anybody's ass, I just appreciate how you guys do business, I will continue to support as much as possible 🤟
Thank you so much for the kind words Paul! You're the man 🤘
So I worked in a bike shop, for 1/4 of a year between school and university and it was a very interesting and fun job. The shop I worked in charged 100 - 200 Euros on out of the box bike assembly of Consumer direct bikes and most people gladly took that deal, as these were mostly rather high end bikes. Granted I worked in a rather wealthy area (Frankfurt am Main), where people can afford to let the bike shop do everything.
I was working there to finally get a really good bike and personally had bikes like the YT Capara or the Propain Spindrift on my mind, this changed, as my boss gave me a really sweet deal on the Fuji Auric 1.3 LT from 2020. I'm so glad I took it, because I got more value out of that, than going with any consumer direct brand (this will probably be a viable solution for the least amount of people tho)
Jeff, I appreciate your transparency. I have been in e-commerce for a long time (going on 10 years) and I really admire what you have created with WC! Your attitude reminds me of the saying "High tide raises all ships." Thanks for sharing your opinion, and self-taught education, more people need to hear this way of thinking to break old habits that aren't benefitting them!
The LBS began dying in the 90s when MTB was in its infancy, so the writing was on the wall from day one, and nobody can really complain.
JTMarlin8 Lol! That’s funny. I opened my bike shop in 2006 and have continued to grow every year except 08-10 (recession in the US) We just had out best year in 2019. I’ve been in MTB advocacy locally since 2001 and have helped create my own market and continue to do so. Good service and good customer service is where LBSs need to excel to stay alive but it still isn’t easy and we’re not getting rich.
Canyon really does offer insane value for money..
Yep agrew and in some countries like middle east countries . You dpnt have lots of bikeshop brands
You should check out rockrider, they make some insanely priced XC and All Mountain bikes.
Love this business stuff! "The more things change, the more they stay the same." ... Giving the consumer more value for their money, no matter how, will make money. 🤙
Well done video with many valid points. I think direct to consumer bike brands are good for the industry!
Who's the Worldwide Cyclery movie nerd extraordinaire? I'm always impressed that, regardless of the topic, someone can think of a relevant film clip to add to the video.
In my experience, direct to consumer brands are great. As long as the bike is pretty much 100% when the consumer receives it and remains that way within the warranty period. Having to raise a problem with the manufacturer and ship a bike or a faulty component somewhere. Then wait for their: diagnosis/decision/repair/replace/return is far more hassle and slower than just returning it to a bricks and mortar shop and having them deal with it.
Although, that's assuming that all LBS are equal, when they're not. Some feel like once they've got your cash, then any problems are between you and the manufacturer rather than the consumer and the LBS. If you're spending your hard earned with an LBS, then they should absolutely go to bat with the manufacturer on the consumer's behalf.
As a CPA, I would say this is one of your best videos! Jeff you're the man for diving into this topic as unbiased as possible. This is why I shop at Worldwide Cyclery!
Thank you for the feedback and for being an epic customer!
Choices, choices and more choices, I much prefer, when buying a bike, to pay more and trust my LBS, having used the same 2, both don't sell the same ranges, for 9 years I 'm not willing to sacrifice that loyalty and customer service for a mail order brand, plus I'm not into Canyon or YT.
Not into Canyon or YT..........bruh
Your open mindness on the evolution of business is exactly what will allow you to thrive and prosper, it allows for necessary adaption of change. This was a surprisingly well articulated video on the current status of business and the things business owners have to deal with along with the rapid changes that time brings.
I only owned consumer direct brands, but I like the idea of a bikeshop. Truth be told, here in Germany mountainbiking is too small for bikeshops to "survive". Without really being able to get in touch with a good bikeshop, the better price is always winning... just because of money, not because of will.
I'd love to have a bikeshop close and although I can fix everything from suspension service to all bleeding etc. by myself, I'd love the social aspect of visiting a shop for a tyre e.g. but well... there is none!
LBS can combat online sellers by having big stock. They have immediacy and convenience on their side. The service aspect is huge too. DTC lacks a sense of community by comparison.
Big stock means lots of capital sitting on the shelf. Big inventory takes big money so you have be sell a ton of stuff to keep that kind of inventory. The hybrid model like World Wide is the only way you can hold that type of inventory without going under.
My kids race BMX which is mostly done online and you better be handy with tools if you want a dialed bike. Most sellers like J&R do have volume, others just ship directly from WPS or the like.
DTC doesn't have to kill the LBS, if the LBS would change their business model from selling bikes to providing high quality services at a fair price. I would still go to a LBS with my DTC bike and pay for bike service & professional consulting.
Interesting video, I'm seeing a paradigm change in what a successful bike store actually is. Many bike stores already don't carry many bikes, bikes are low margin, take up a lot of capital (especially if your carry full size runs), and are high risk (once a model is over a year old your going to have to discount it to sell it), same thing with shoes. I think as times progress most shops will have to concentrate on bike repairs and service (You can't Amazon that) and high of course lower cost high profit high demand items such as inner tubes, brake pads, etc. Also having more community involvement, such as group rides, and having a couple of taps in the shop for after ride beers can bring in extra revenue and maybe lead to some impulse buys.
I have a background in the camera retail industry. It's very much the same...people think there is a ton of margin, but it's very minimal on most of the camera body and lenses.
My bike shop hooked me the hell up! Multiple times as a matter of fact.(I bought 3 bikes in less than a year lol)..if I had ordered direct online, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gotten these deals from Specialized. Plus it's nice being able to see the bikes in person and be able to hop on them.. I don't think I would have gotten into shredding if it weren't for the bike shop!
I bought an Intense when they were shifting their focus to direct to consumer and got a good deal at the time. There are no local Intense dealers in the WI area, so it made sense to not go through a LBS. My sideline observation is they pissed off a number of dealers when they did this because they immediately reduced their prices. I've noticed in the last year they seem to be trying to repair that relationship and do both direct to consumer and sell through bike shops. To your point about profit margins being tighter, I've also noticed their bike prices increase ~$500 for their models (same frame costs that much more). I am not sure if that is tariff-related or the need to offer more profit to the bike shops they are trying to now sell through (probably a mix of both). In the end, they absolutely did the right thing to sell direct to consumer (had to do it to survive).
I wasn't always able to buy new high end bikes and wish I had the options we do now. The prices and service ive seen in this industry needed a reality check. Those two things are why I ended up buying used and working on my own bikes. In turn thats why, for the first time in 15 years I purchased my first new bike. Brick and mortar need to up that service game because thats where its going to count.
Kudos to you guys for not only embracing change but accepting it and educating the consumer. You can't fight and prevent the change but you can acknowledge it. Your approach will attract those who see it, yet value the LBS relationship, and they will simply come to you guys because they enjoy the relationship and perhaps you sell products they prefer. With your approach, even consumers who thought they preferred the direct model, will still be drawn to working with you guys because of your honesty.
Good video. I run an electric bike shop. Used to sell and work on everything, but my shop was full of random bikes waiting on parts from China for weeks to months. Have since gone one brand, local warehouse, great quality, and limits confusion in choosing a bike. The E-bike game is selling to retired boomers who haven't ridden a bike in 30 years, great demographic. However in e-bikes you must specialize on a brand. Maintenance is focused on electrical problems more than mechanical. Which is why I sell one quality brand, they don't come back in my door with problems, unlike sub $1000 e-bikes. If they do warehouse is local, and bikes get fixed next day. Sold a bunch of brands over the years and in e-bikes, Online helps, but a local shop is essential for fleet maintenance. Just like a car dealership.
In regard to YT specifically, I fully agree they make rad bikes. The downfall to them is if you break something, or need warranty parts, it often takes months to get these issues sorted. I think for the money vs spec, direct to consumer can’t be beat. However, There is definitely comfort in knowing you can go down the street to your local shop, put in the claim, and have your (new) bike back within a couple weeks and be back out on the trails! Certainly an interesting topic, and at the end of the day I guess it comes down to personal preference. Keep up the good work bro’s 🤙🏻
The dealership business model is a dying one. Same thing is happening in cars with Tesla, and other areas of the economy. Millennials and Gen-Y (the people who are ripe to spend money) buy based on sorting and filtering (aka online, look at WC's success;) and the product with the features they want. Any dealership-model bike company that doesn't have click and collect is doing their shops more of a disservice than I am buying a Commencal. The brand era is over. The dealership era is over. Supply chains are efficient, consumers are informed, prices come down, and more people get to ride. ✌️
Although I agree with your core message I dont think you can compare the car industry with the bike industry at all. The idea of a dealership for bikes maybe true but I dont think it is for things like cars.
Yes it works for Tesla, at least for now, but that is the exception because people who buy Teslas are the same people, who buy enthusiast level bikes. The difference being, that almost everybody at some point owns a car, so it is more of neccesity for all people not just enthusiasts. Bikes that are worth more than 800€/$ are predominantly, or at least to a relatively large degree, bought by people who are somewhat interested in bikes, and would therefore be able to finish the Canyon bike they ordered. Further I don't think the brand era is over, it has just started look at tesla, look at apple, look at supreme, people would buy a turd with the brand logo on it, or in supreme's case a fucking brick.
@@KapitanPisoar1 but thats why it works well for bikes: people who spend that kind of money will most likely not need to visit the lbs for service very often, because you can do everything on them yourself. Of course they won't take over completely, but I think they will dominate the enthusiast market
DerFurz you seem to be under the impression that driving isn’t becoming an enthusiast activity as well. At least in the US ride sharing, bike infrastructure, rent-a bikes, and those scooters are all making the need to drive far less prevalent. This is especially true in cities, and that’s were people seem to be moving. Manufacturers have been struggling, severely, to get younger people to buy, because the consumers are not exited allot of the cookie cutter people movers that used to be their bread and butter. Tesla works because they are cars for enthusiasts that people can get exited about, on top of killing it, using tech company marketing techniques. Ask any real car guy about the quality of Tesla products. They’ll tell you it’s not great. Ask Tesla drivers if they care, the answer is no. How could FCA still work when all their products are low quality, simple; enthusiasm and marketing capitalizing on enthusiast. Honestly, if GM saw this writing on the wall, they would’ve dropped Buick and kept Pontiac. Might still have products worth buying. Probably why Hummer is coming back as an EV.
@@macmurfy2jka But it isnt. Look how many ..boring,, cars VAG sells and how many Porsches. Tesla buyers are mostly logo bitches, but Tesla just does not sell alot of cars compared to the big names in the buisness, who sell mostly non-enthusiast grade cars. Tech-company marketing is fine on the small scala Tesla is operating but VAG just couldnt pull it off because they have a bigger, non-enthusiast market to deal with. Cars are expensive, so people have more of a need to try the car before buying it. Tell some random joe who doesnt suck Elon Musk's cock, or any other companies, that they can buy one of two cars in the same class. One they can test-drive and one thay cant. One has good parts availability one hasnt. Which one do you think he would buy?
With bikes there is one problem. Major manufacturers do not deliver rideable bikes.
gears won't be well indexed in most cases. Brakes won't be centered. And less important they are not fully assembled.
Manufacturers including the german one i rent out need to improve their final checks if they want to deliver straight to customers.
I bought a YT, great bike, great value.. when i needed some work done on it, i took it to LBS and I think ultimately he will make more margin than YT would servicing it for me. Message to brick and motor:keep offering good service and support no matter what the bike and you will be fine!
I'm a baby boomer who has seen a few shops close their doors because the owner retired or lost the passion. The thin profit margin made a perpetuation plan impossible. As long as the passion for bicycles survives so shall the LBS. Just wish I had the bicycles being made today when I was younger.
I don't support local bike shops.
I support *good people* that run local bike shops. 👌 Shops that offer good service and act as a social hub/meetup place will always be part of biking.
I think that DTC bikes did a great job shaking up the industry and getting brands become more efficient with production. That said, I do worry about it becoming a race to the bottom and brands may cut corners to undercut the competition on the showroom floor.
My two most recent bikes were shipped to my door and I assembled them myself. I do go to my local LBS for accessories because they’re friendly and it’s good to have a good bike shop in town. And my friends, even if they buy online, will go to their local shop for maintenance.
Local retail is really hard. Everything I’ve read says that you have to create a community and experience, not just a transaction. I know one place in DC that has free yoga on Mondays. And organized rides are key too. But you also need to look at new revenue streams. I wish I had the guts to make a go of it.
I think local bike shops will have to lean more on being part of the community. These shops you see with a restaurant and beer on tap become a place you can go hang out while they wrench on your bike and you maybe have a few beers and impulse buy some stuff. The shops like that and the ones that give classes on how to fix your bike are the ones that have that whole package where a person is willing to pay a little more. On the other hand an online shop like WWC that will help you find the right part that fits and basically be everything your local shop was before. Aside from being able to walk in, WWC’s model will be the standard for online. You guys rock. Great stuff in this video. I like hearing your point of view. 👍
Thanks! We appreciate the feedback :)
Only two bikes I’ve bought recently were direct, much better builds than anything I could get at a shop for less money.
Excellent topic, brilliantly presented, clear, yet detailed. Good humour too. Love how open minded you are, not biased and giving a balanced view.
One point - I bought a Canyon, used their online sizing guide as I was unsure looking at geo chart. Bike was good (2017 Spectral) but was a bit tall in the stack height, and a little short in cockpit. I now have a Giant that I was able to sit on and lbs let me ride (only on the street, but better than nothing). Fits me better. So if you’re in between sizes, online can be a bit of a gamble.
I like my local bike shop and dont mind paying few dollars extra on some things because I know I'm gonna get top notch service from them plus if I have any issues warranty wise they will handle it. Just my 2 cents worth.
mike Bussart a few dollars extra LOL we are talking a grand+
Love this video. The reality is that the value of buying from a local shop is greatly diminished when you wrench on your own bike. Those of us who have the skill and tools to pull a bottom bracket, change out a cassette, true a wheel, etc. get very little very value from our LBS after the bike sale. We usually are only in the shop once to buy the bike and a second time for the "free tuneup" where we learn that we can do as good or better a job tuning up the bike ourselves. But I would never steer someone who is inexperienced with bikes or has no inclination to wrench on them to a direct to consumer company. The LBS gives them services they need to buy the correct bike for them and set it up and maintain it. An LBS will size the bike correctly, build it and set it up optimally for the rider, and also be there for after sale service. I think most people fall into this category. This part of the market will always be there. Buying a bike "direct to consumer" assumes you know about reach, standover, and frame geometry to be able to select the bike that is sized properly and meets your goals as a rider. That's something that only the more serious and experienced riders are going to possess. These riders are the ones who are going to be inclined to look to the Internet to get a higher spec'd bike for the same $$$ as a lower end one from an LBS. My LBS might not get my bike sales but they get my $$$ for all of the other stuff like helmets, lube, chains, etc. and I try to steer people their way when I think that they will benefit from the services a LBS can provide. I have no problem supporting a local business by paying a little bit more than I can get things online, but when I'm saving hundreds or a thousand dollars more to buy the same spec'd bike at an LBS, I know where my money is going. YMMV
In my opinion direct to consumer brands are awesome. You can own a top bike spending 5.000/6.000. And to be honest when the bike arrives to your home it’s already built, you only have to instal the front wheel, the dropper, and tight your bars. And you still can go to shops to get big mantainance jobs. The only issue is dealing with warranties if you have a frame crack, you will have to wait longer to get your bike back on the trais.
Hi, I'm Jeff. Welcome to my TED talk.
Good stuff Jeff, keep the videos coming!
Thanks!
No ones innocent here. Big box brands put out substandard, poorly built product all the time. Whoever focuses on their product, has a good control of manufacturing processes, and high standard for design, build quality, alignment, tolerances, customer service etc. Will get my money at the end of the day. Make good shit! all of you! Yeah I know it's hard to do all of that with the volumes you're trying to put out! Make it happpeen. We all win if you do.
I buy a lot of stuff on line, but my local bike store will match online prices for parts, apparel, etc. So I like to buy stuff from them - they still make money as they are paying wholesale! Keeps everyone happy!
The e-commerce model is missing the value of being able to touch/feel/inspect, find the right fit, and even test ride a bike before buying. I never impulse buy online but I have a couple of bicycles and motorcycles and cars that I technically did not need but after a quick spin.......
Most motorcycle dealers will not allow you to ride before you buy. You can sit on them in the showroom though. Or watch reviews online. You do get to touch it though.
Mmmmmm... I disagree. These brands can easily supplement that with a scheduled demo somewhere fun to ride and many if not all do this already. A "quick spin" around the parking lot bouncing on the suspension isn't going to give an experienced rider any idea of how a bike truly handles. That's going to take multiple laps on varying trails in a park which they'll likely get from doing a demo ride. Last year I rode 12 different bikes and a rental during Crankworx. Also, any experienced rider is going to have a pretty good idea on whether or not it's going to fit them based on the bikes geometry specs. I've purchased 6 bikes (road, cross, and MTB) without test-riding any of them and I really haven't gotten a bike yet that I regretted. Other friends too.
@@minituck04 I am a bit older and know some people at the dealerships for quite a few years.
@@p199a Thank you. Did not know that.
Thanks Jeff for such a great video. I enjoy both online and retail stores in my opinion. It’s nice to have people to speak to on the products, not necessarily only for bikes. And it’s for the consumer to go online and do more research to learn it more and judge by their own capability if they are able to “service” it themselves or need help from a retailer. Hats off to the local bike stores with excellent customer service and knowledge because they keep us going back to the sport. I own a Cervelo R5 myself and the Cervelo store I go to in Singapore is amazing. Ultimately, it’s about the service of the store which really makes a huge difference, but the business model needs to evolve. Kudos, great content.
I bought a YT a few years ago and never looked back. Pay $4-5k more for a similarly spec'd box brand? I'm done doing that. And - never, ever had a problem with local bike shops not wanting to make their hourly service rate working on my YT when needed. I've been a HUGE fan of YT's business model and stellar marketing. Great video Jeff. You seem to be a lot like YT in your innovative, consumer centric marketing approach. I dig you guys as an online mtb seller WAY more than another online retailer. (although shout out to Competitive Cyclist for their great customer service ) You get it Jeff - you get how many a mtb rider thinks and you get what we want. Love the videos, the humor, and how forward thinking y'all are. Kudos.
$4-5k seems like a bit much in comparison. Maybe $1-2k.
My LBS is cool with all bikes. I bought a used Evil MB Following and brought it in for service and all the guys were stoked to check it out. They serviced it quick, and for a pretty penny. Everyone was happy
TLDR; Why is there a green fly swatter on the shelf?
^^^ Rocket scientist right there.
Mark McCardell spot on. Great video but that green thing was a huge distractor.
Why make a stupid comment about something irrelevant to the vid? Forget to take your ADD meds?
It's a spatula. Gotta have your pancakes.
Jeff, as I’m sure you know, your UA-cam content and openness makes me want to order products through Worldwide Cyclery. It’s working and I don’t mind admitting it. Keep up the good work.
I buy everything online because I can do the work. More importantly it's cheaper. It's all about the money.
Great video!! I really like how high your production quality is and the time stamp card at the front of the video.
Very well done video gents. So much insight - you can't argue the fact that these D2C brands are providing a ton of value in their bike builds.
I seriously appreciate your transparency and I love your videos.
There are some great things about a local bike store, but non-standard config is not one of them. For example, if I want a better dropper than comes with the standard SB115, their solution is that I just buy the one I want and sell one that came with the bike. Simple, right? Very simple... I bought one online that allows for customization.
I’ve never really thought about it to be honest. I’m from the uk and I bought an orange stage 6. You can buy them from certain bike shops or direct. I just assumed they would give them to the shops way cheaper so I bought mine from a shop plus you can go to a shop and sit on one and get a feel for it. Canyon and yt demo days seem to be few and far between around here. I like all the hand made in Britain stuff from orange. Bike shops also sell commencals here in the uk
This video is really well done, and informative. But here is even older history: Back when my parents owned a bike shop (74-87) the model also included a wholesaler in between us and the manufacturer. Back then most of the middle to premium bikes were only available from European bike makers, and so it was suited to importer-wholesalers. A few of the wholesalers would sell their own brand bikes in addition to the imported ones, then new bike manufacturing companies like Trek and CDale and Speclizd came along to sell directly to bike shops.
I think they are good for the Industry, it pushes the lbs to do better. I have bought bikes in the shop, but i do All my own work, so these days i have a 2019 YT Jeffsy CF27 Pro Race, and a Vitus 29VR hardtail, both consumer direct.
KapitanPisoar1 Read again, i never mentioned Price.
KapitanPisoar1 It pushes Them to better service, more knowledge, better inventory (not more, better), better online presence and much more. All Of Them crucial things if you want to keep doing good. Of course Price is also a factor, but in the end, the collected experience trumps pricing.
The LBS model is dying bcuz the manufactures are pushing all the financial risk on the retailer. Every year shops have to commit to a huge lump purchase. In regards to components, there is just no way LBS can compete. In regards to service, well you have the whole spectrum between HS kid and old school riders. Most of them have shitty customer service skills.
Bought a Canyon a few weeks ago. I have ALWAYS loved the look of their bikes, and their "direct-to-customer" business model; pricing was key as well. Ordered the bike online after calling and talking to one of the CSR's about fit. Received the bike in the mail, and it was super easy to assemble! I've very happy with my purchase. When I'm ready, I may buy a road bike from Poseidon Bike for the same reason(s).
Great video!
There will always be a clueless cyclist, and they will crawl to bike shops just to have them lube their chains, so I think bike shops are more so gonna be service, and not sales.
In Europe, there's a new trend in bike shops growing. A boutique bike workshop which will create a bike of your dreams for you. You can have a frame that suits you and painted in the colour of your liking with the components you want (these guys are competent and can correct your mistakes when matching components). Most of them aim at the "urban bikes" which are more of a lifestyle statement, but I've seen shops building custom gravel bikes too. These places often stem from independent shops (re)selling second hand "utility" bikes for commuting. As they often needed to fix something in bikes they had, they have grown expertise in repair and components matching evolving into making their own bikes from competent they buy on-line for low prices.
I have always loved local bike shops and supported them. However, the variety at a bike shop is rather small for the most part at small bike shops. On the west coast I have seen stores that are huge with a massive variety of high end MTB brands and models to choose from ( Santa Cruz, Yeti, Evil, etc etc). However, where I am in NYC we don't have the options those places have in terms of variety (unless you are into road bikes). Therefore, to get what you want, you most likely will have to order online. I would still support them for service though 100%
Awesome discussion man. This dude gets it. If at least half of the bike shops that went out of business in the last decade had this mindset they most likely would have evolved and would most likely still be in business. Cheers
0:54 Is there a rivalry between Michael's Bicycles and Mike's Bikes?
Great video I am the same way I like to see how it evolves. Plus, bike shops aren't going anywhere in my opinion. me personally I like going to bike shop so I can get Hands-On with the bikes and talking to people about the product who know more than I do to get me fitted with the right bike.
I loved this video! For my most recent bike, I was torn. I really liked the Santa Cruz Mega Tower. I liked it a lot. But I kept coming back to Fezzari. I liked what I was seeing and reading. I ended up on a La Sal Peak, and I love it. Fezzari has great customer service, and more importantly, I was able to mix and match components and get exactly what I wanted. The end result is a GREAT feeling bike with an interesting mix of XX1 and XO1 drive train, CODE RSC brakes, in a solid carbon bike that only cost me $4600 delivered. My next bike will likely be the YT Decoy CF Pro Race E-MTB, over the Specialized, strictly because of the value.
I brought a cascade peak from fezzari by far the best value. Now, I live only 100 miles from the shop so I picked up in person. Customer service and price no one could beat
I also own a Fezzari la sal and I agree top notch customer service!
The problem with bike shops is that they are ignoring their biggest money maker when whining about consumer direct bikes.
The biggest money maker for LBS's and any other brick and mortar bike store is clothing and accessories, they have insane margins. Having worked in the industry in multiple different cycling retailers and suppliers, the margins on accessories and clothing is stupendous, commonly between 30-75% margin and you sell CONSIDERABLY more of those products than you sell bikes, and it is FAR more common for someone to buy from a physical shop when it comes to sports clothing, shoes, helmets, accessories etc, since they can actually try them out.
Here in the UK brick and mortar stores have ridiculous margins on "big brand" bikes like Giant, Specialized, Trek etc.
One bike shop I worked in a few years ago, that won't be named, was not allowed to include Giant in any of their sales events unless Giant was putting the bike on sale and granting permission for the price to be lower. As far as I was aware, this was due to Giants requirement for bikes to be sold with a minimum of 30% profit margin, which on bikes is absurd.
Specialized and Trek had a similar tactic and its easy to see plenty of their bikes in the £500-£5000 range that pushed 20-30% margins.
Decathlon is another company that does direct to consumer since they design, test and manufacture all their own bikes the last I checked. The margins on their bikes are tiny, anywhere from 1-10% for the vast majority of what they sell, and it really shows when they are selling road bikes and mountain bikes for £1000 or less with better equipment than some bikes at £2000. At one point when I worked there almost 10 years ago now, they were selling an entry level road bike at no margin at all, in-fact they lost 1% margin on EVERY single one of those bikes they sold in the UK, but they didn't care because the bike was so good and so cheap that people bought loads of accessories with almost every bike and it more than made-up for the losses. In the EU they weren't losing money on those bikes because the shipping cost was lower than to the UK, so again they weren't fussed, they sold literally hundreds of thousands of those bikes across the 2 years they were on sale and regularly ran out of stock during the summer months with 2+ month waiting lists for hundreds of customers at a time.
Local bike stores here in the Uk don't help themselves by being completely elitist as well, the vast majority of LBS's I've visited are staffed by complete bike snobs who don't care about anything thats not at the top end.
One way for the retailers to react is to switch focus to service. A lot of stores give you attitude if you bring in a bike, for repair or maintenance, that isn't a brand they sell. That has to change. My LBS is awesome about that. They sell plenty of brands, but are happy to work on anything that comes through the door and make money on service, replacement parts, and component upgrades. Another idea would be for the direct brands to allow warranty, replacements, and set up to be handled through LBS's. That opens a lot of doors for everyone. The customer can save $ by buying direct, the brand appeals to a wider consumer base (people who don't work on their own bikes) and the LBS makes money on set up and service.
What would be the benefit of a LBS to handle the warranties for a brand they don't supply?
The business will keep evolving....it is up to the brick and mortar stores to innovate and get creative to keep a customer. Additionally, providing better overall service will set you apart from the rest. Great informative video!
I have very few Bike shops in my area and personally I hate them! Not narrow this down to a single experience, but the last straw was when I decided to go tubeless on my race-bike. I rode up to the shop walked in and explained to the guy I wanna go tubeless. All I said was that I wanna go tubeless and that Im here at his shop to buy everything I need to do the job. This guy had a different idea though... he tries to convince me its a bad idea because my rims are going to rust to pieces (keep in mind though that im riding DTSwiss carbon rims) when I told him this he then tries to humiliate me in front of another customer saying that hes seen it all before and if I wanna risk it I shouldn't come and cry to him later.... well the rest is history..... As far as Im concerned I only enter a Bike-shop if I Im out and there happens to be one in the direct vicinity and even then its only to rummage through the bargain-bin. As far as im concerned they can all go suck eggs... I now do my own research online and buy what I need without having to deal with amateurs. Oh and now own 3 Canyon bikes...
I've have seen local bike stores change to compete with the growing competition to provide better experience to the consumer. They are much more involved with demo rides, group rides, training classes on MTB skills, social media and supporting funding for local trails.
Buy the bike you want, From who you want. I like supporting my local bike shop “Jax chino hills” dudes are awesome.but if I find a sick deal on any brand bike you Bess believe ya boi buying it.
Glad you brought this subject up. I think of awesome brands like Priority and Co-Motion and how more they would cost if bike shops sold them.
Gonna support a local shop for my next bike. Probably the getting the specialized stumpjumper 29.
Not pissed off with your video, you are talking from your heart. It's the truth, good to hear from someone who loves the bike trade, it's a great job - to serve the local committee and do something you enjoy win win. We are in changing times and brands are hedging their bets. I talk with a lot of bike shop owners as some are busy and not making any money as it has high service costs to run a bike shop. The high street is closing in the UK, sure it is the same. Together we can help more people to cycle and enjoy riding more. The top brands don't have the national coverage to offer click and collect, people are looking for the best price and not all so loyal as they use to be. Do the best job and give advice and cyclist will come back or tell their cycling buddies. There is more option now, online, shop and mobile service plus DIY
With a good repair stand and UA-cam the choice seems obvious. Change is good.
Great topic. You pretty much noted all the important aspect of the different models. I find the macro analysis the most interesting. What is all this doing to the sport/hobby long term.
Aside from that, it all depends on the customer. How much $$ you have, how self sufficient are you, what are you looking for. That is a broad spectrum, many times driven by location.
Although I have purchased one bike online (a YT because my local bike shops don't really carry big travel bikes), I try to buy local because the bike shops support kid's riding programs, the high school bike team, and building and maintenance of local trails. YT and the online brands don't do anything local. That is worth a lot to me.
I think there’s room for both options. I work in a bike shop and we sell the big brands but I can still get killer value on a brand like YT which is actually the next bike I’m getting. The component spec can’t be beat on a top end YT compared to some of the big brands. To get the same spec it’s a $3-5k price jump. Side by side
Epic video! I buy everything online 😁
I have a YT Capra and a Specialized Levo from my local bike shop so I support both!!