I would love to see a discussion about m855 vs m193, or even m855a1, mk262, etc. I really value what you guys have to say about these sorts of things... good shooting, and great video as always
@murphy7801 it's the washing. pretty sure most people don't pay attention to the labels. it's not just a ucp thing, ocp washes out and looks like ass too if you don't do it right.
The M4 is a capable weapon that is highly adaptable and can be effective *in the right hands.* M150 aka TA-31RCO was the pinnacle when it came out. When I was an instructor at Benning we could get basic students hitting 500+ with ease. At a hands-on demonstration for locals and dignitaries we had some 'cold' time on the line. At my station there was a 9 year old girl and her father, so we did some dime drills and marksmanship techniques. The father was excited to see his daughter shoot the carbine! When we went 'hot' she worked up to 250 m (the longest distance at that range on the pop-up targets) then proceeded to go 9/10 at 250. He was prouder than I, but just barely.
Effective range is exactly where it’s expected to be. Man I love the M16/AR/M4 platform. It’s so predictable and repeatable, and not to mention effective in just about every way for modern infantry combat.
@Riorozen Eh this will always be never-ending debate because simply both 14.5" and 16" lengths have their advantages and disadvantages, and "both sides are right". But honestly 14.5" seems optimal for what it is - a carbine, and it was a very logical choice. It retains optimal velocity for terminal ballistics of 5.56 to these 120-140 meters which are critical to infantry combat, while being light and maneuverable. AR-15s with govt barrel are very front heavy, so even that 1.5" less makes a difference in handling. And for taking out more distant targets you have marksmen and MGs.
@@digduck9463 held an AK-47 in my hands when I was 13. Befriended the 🪖 soldier who had it. I've also seen an M4 and held one. It's a very tight, well put together instrument. That comes straight from an AK fanboy like me! Given the choice, both weapons would bring out the best in you in times of urban combat, I can guarantee you that!
You're absolutely right about the Army Qual. Especially in the Reserve side. I've got a bunch of good shooters and a bunch of, respectfully, pretty poor shooters. And the difference is the good ones own rifles at home. But the bad ones have to struggle along with the Army system which gives them very little real practice or training.
In ‘95, I was an Army CI Agent in 1st Group and we had just been issued the SOPMOD M4 and was deployed to Haiti in support of 3rd Group. I taped a 4 cell Maglight under the fore grips like a 203. It worked and I just took it off when I didn’t specifically need it. I’ve enjoyed the M4 since. Great channel!
I just recently put together an M4 style rifle with a 14.5 inch barrel with a pinned and welded flash hider. Something about it is just so satisfying. I end up training with it more than my FN or my BCM.
31:30 I think the takeaway here is that skill is still the deciding factor, at least in the context of AR vs AK or other relatively modern rifles. That said, I think it would be interesting to see 2023 Henry do another run with one of the AKs. Not a redemption run per se, but more of a comparison to the baseline set in this video. Great discussion as always
Maybe the comparison could be against a modernized AK with the same acog and equally good ammo in 7.62 (ggg is pretty good stuff but Tula steel case maybe not) Love you guys. Your relationship reminds me of my friends!
Carried one for years down range and now as a patrol rifle, my Colt is nearly 20 years old and still beats many new “Gucci “ versions even after 10k down the barrel.
@@scoutdynamics3272uh have you ever heard of fallujah? If you don’t know what your talking about please stop talking. On your channel you go on about scout rifles. Have scout rifles ever won a major ground battle?
@@fury556 Actually, when you tried to fight with infantry alone, you were sent packing at Fallujah! Even the Marines had to retreat! It was only using air assault and armor with the poodle shooter finishing off the half dead that Fallujah fell. And even then, the enemy have you a hard time
Have you ever thought of making practical accuracy test using the battle zero of rifles ? Like the P setting on AK-74 and such . That could be a decent exemple of upside and downside of such setting and could be quite instructive
Agreed! AK, M16A2/ M4A1, and M14 BZOs would be great service rifle iron sight tests! Could also turn right around and run the course "dialing" those respective sights for the different ranges for a good comparison within the same platform, and discuss the differences.
Your debrief really explained that disciplined practice and experience gains you much better performance than "improving" an already capable weapons platform. And, of course, that Texas weather in August sucks! #newslettergang
I've done almost the exact same thing in the US army as the beginning of this video with my issued M4. We were on a target range training Afghans, and I was shooting out to 450yd and 500yd with my M4 using an EOTech (military issue) and 3x flip away zoom (personal device). I was hitting at 450 and 500 with Ease using Kentucky windage just like you guys did, was almost effortless. I love the M4/M16 (we ran M16A4 with irons in Ramadi). My unit was also issued the Aimpoint M2 and Tijicon ACOG that deployment as well, and so everyone got their choice of optic. If I were in combat again tomorrow, there is NO other current rifle I know of that I would pick over the M4, unless my role was specifically as a designated marksman. The M4/M16 platform is just dominant in so many ways, and I'm comfortable with it and understand its accuracy as well. And being a mechanical engineer I know a few things about the design most shooters just never grasp, despite tons of videos online demonstrating/proving those attributes. I would never pick an AK or the XM5 as my primary rifle of choice.
Love to see you guys discuss the fact that both of you have gotten better. As individuals and as a team. It has made a visible difference over the years. So any of the early stuff could be subject to a revisit.
its pretty crazy how quickly the commercial/ aftermarket industry for ar-15's exploded after say 2010... the internet certainly helped. even back in the early 2000's.. it wasn't like now where you can find pretty much any ar part you want from numerous dealers online, usually from a super cheap option to a high quality premium one..
I did Midnight Brutality and "the kids" in my squad were all "what is THAT?!" about my m93 stock. The first Magpul! It is kinda meh but it _was_ baller af as fuck in 2005!
I think the two key periods that caused the AR market to metaphorically explode was the sunset of the FAWB in 2004 and the fallout from the Sandy Hook shooting in late 2012/early 2013; the former allowed manufacturers to sell un-neutered AR's to people in 44-45 states again, along with normal 11+ round magazines, forcing manufacturers to innovate because not everyone wanted a basic A2 or M4 configuration. 2012/2013 poured proverbial fuel on the fire since it was the first serious attempt to reintroduce an FAWB, and is in large part why US gun owners have been buying an average of 1 million AR-15 or AW-type firearms annually since 2013.
perfect timing! i just finished a 14.5" build! its my favorite, idk why , it just seems like the perfect balance of performance and overall size, plus its a "rifle" so no pistol brace or nfa sbr BS
Being an ultra-pog Marine who is of an average size who never deployed I never got to shoot or even really handle the M4 that much, but I definitely am surprised how accurate they are every time that rifle shoots. Its insane.
I was very POG as well (german Bundeswehr). Yet I went to the range almost monthly. Because I always signed up to go. I also met US army POGs at the range several times. At the end of service I had gathered 3x the Schützenschnur in Gold. I realised that in the Bundeswehr you can have a lot more range time as a POG than in other nations armed forces. I asked several ..
@@AK-hi7mg I had plenty of range time for being a POG, I took it up on myself to get better on my own time and shoot my personal weapons, I just still never got to handle the M4. My weapon was an M16A4 and then a standard 16 inch AR for my training medium outside of work
@@kennywolfjr.6413 ah ok. It sounded like you didnt get any range time at all. Do you ever regret not going infantry ? I had a comfortable life in the army. Had my own office and single room in the barracks later on with only one other guy living at the end of the floor. I always wanted to do more while I was in , and I volunteered for deployment to Kosovo but the unit that was deploying had filled all spots before I got the chance. Otherwise I always had it so comfortable that I couldn't see myself living in the woods for a month again.
@@AK-hi7mg I can see how it sounded that way. M4 in the Marine Corps is really infantry or if you're short enough kind of thing, or at least it was when I was in, but I can see how it'd sound like I didn't shoot much lol I don't regret a thing I did, If much had changed I don't know if I'd have met my wife and had my son. I did that while I was in. Plus my experience wasn't bad, I wouldn't have minded it going to the field more often and actually do my job in the capacity of actually troubleshooting and fixing radios, but other than that I can't complain. I did what I was supposed to, a more exciting enlistment just wasn't in my cards.
TA31/RCO/Chevron ACOG whatever you want to call it is still one of my favorite reticles. I grew up on RCOs with the Chevron then halfway through my enlistment they swapped our Chevron RCOs for RCOs with a horseshoe and dot. I didn’t care for that one as much as the Chevron.
I’ve got some reservations about the terminal effects of 14.5” in extreme cold. I was on a range on Ft Wainwright in February 2006. It was -30°F for the high, and we had black soot coming out our barrels, and the M855 bullets were hitting the paper sideways by 400m. So there definitely was a great muzzle velocity drop, which means that the time the bullet was traveling at the fragmentation velocity threshold M855 needs to do more than ice pick through a body was greatly reduced as well. End state: shorter terminally effective range. I’ve been trying to test out whether the 20” barrel allows for more powder burn thus preserving velocity vs a 14.5” barrel, but I haven’t yet found a day that I could get out to the range in SouthCentral Alaska that has been colder than -10°F (which btw at that temp M855 out of a 20” barrel only loses ~50 FPS between warm gun and ammo to cold gun and ammo, according to my crono, YMMV [the M1 and SKS I shot the same day didn’t seem to lose any velocity]). I also haven’t acquired a 14.5” upper yet (eventually tho).
1/7 probably stabilized anything in extreme cold in a 20in but the 14.5 doesn't have enough time to impart stabilization at those temperatures. Maby 1/5 1/6 would in a 14.5
What you witnessed was one of the very reasons why we dumped the 855. The plants could never get the penetrator exactly centered in the lead mold. So as the bulled traveled on it’s ballistic path, it’s unbalance while spinning caused it to create ever-widening circles as it went down range. Like a big funnel shape. After a certain range, the bullets began a weird wobble that often left keyholes in the targets. And that weird wobble just killed the bullet’s BC and velocity. Some lots were ok, some were not.
@@blackhawk7r221 Which probably explains why every other NATO military still uses M855/SS109 spec ammo because those are actually made to spec unlike the shit that salt lake city churns out. hell, even civvie legal M855 is more accurate. To give you an idea: Out of a M4A1 Block 1 SOPMOD or a clone: -Lake City contract M855: 4 MOA (The stuff the US military uses) -American Eagle M855: 2.5 MOA (American ammo manufacturers average on the low end of accuracy) -Prvi Partizan M855: 1.5 MOA (Serbian military standard issue for Zastava M21, civilian legal) -PMC X-LAP M855: 1 MOA (Korean Military standard Issue, civilian legal) -S&B M855: 1 MOA (Highest average muzzle velocity, civilian legal, in use by multiple european militaries) -GP90 Swiss: 0.8 MOA (Nominally effective to 300 meters. whatever that means, It just works.) -ADI F1 SS109 (Australian M855): 0.6 MOA (Best load by far. Very high average muzzle velocity only behind S&B. The Australians only had good things to say about it in afghanistan even in 500+ meter engagements)
Dear 9 Hole Reviews, do a special history and debrief episode on the FN Minimi / M249 SAW since nobody has ever done one on YT yet. The history behind the Minimi is very interesting as it involves the proposed 6 mm SAW cartridge, the obscure contenders, the questionable reliability with standard magazines, and the post production PIP to fix the SAW’s ergonomics.
You've done the block 1, you've done the block 2, when will we see the Block 3 aka the URGI? I'd love to see how a modern setup stacks up. I'd also like to see the Mk18 "through the years" beginning with fsp, then to the RIS2, then again to the URGI 11.5" MK18. Would be interesting to see even if you come up with a reduced range course for these sorts of very compact carbines(like for example the AKS-74U). I'd also like to see a modern civillian AR15 thrown into the mix for comparison. Maybe something like a BCM or even a cheap PSA if you'd rather compare a "Budget" Ar to more milspec ones. I mean afterall ya'll have compared like a dozen or more AK variants. I'd love to see that with ARs even if it is boring to some, its an interesting data point.
I think it would be useful to test handguns and rifles in civilian designed scenarios in IDPA or InRange style 2 gun matches. It could prove helpful with the uptick in violent encounters.
From the future here: In March 2024, they started publishing videos about the URG-I. I believe they will do a practical accuracy video soon. If not, this comment will age like milk...
The M4 is such an amazing rifle. I had no complaints about mine on all my deployments. A lighter trigger was about the only improvement that could made. The 3 round burst was pointless.
@@blackhawk7r221 I seen the same with the few M16a1's I was issued. Especially when some batches of a2's needed sights adjustment from battle site zero to print on zero targets. FYI my first one was GM Hydromatic, then H&R's 👍
I always find that when a video discussion about the xm177 come up the point of the barrel being extended to 11.5 is attributed to the point of reliability. However, written records and accounts by SOG members themselves indicated that the real reason for the barrel increase was to further reduce the report of the muzzle blast and the Army requirement to allow for an under barrel grenade launcher to be used on the xm177.
While true, it seems more like individuals that did not use the weapon before the barrel change are applying current knowledge and experience to actions taken in the past. I have not found any reports from SOG interviews or Military records indicated the barrel increase was due to reliability or parts wear. I could have just missed it, but I do not consider wikipedia a reliable or Accurate source.
I think right now is prime time to see a video on the Mk12 Mod 0 and Mod 1. SPRs seem to be gaining popularity and would probably do well for your channel.
I too have a hard time swallowing that price tag when there are many good optics for much less. They may not take a grenade and survive like the true ACOG but work well. I too want a ACOG but damn it's a lot for a fixed power optic.
To echo what you talked about toward the end regarding qualifications and time spent on the rifle -- my enlistment was in the AF in an F-15E maintenance unit. We didn't even qualify once a year, we only did it prior to a deployment. If I had never deployed the only time I would have ever shot an M16/M4 for the Air Force would have been basic training. Now, on our off time? To put it mildly, our squadron was frighteningly well armed. By the time I got out I had gotten up to like 10 or 12 guns (including two nice AR's) and I was on the low end. I was on swing shift (3 PM - ??? [should be 11 PM.... should be]) and I'd hit up the local outdoor range probably once a week around 11 or 12 before work and I'd always run into people from my squadron, or people from the other squadrons (ole Shady J in Goldsboro). Now of course none of this would mean a thing in a firefight because none of us had any kind of combat experience/training but if push came to shove we were all very proficient with the AR platform and enjoyed shooting on our own time, so at least we'd be able to hit stuff. I remember when we were sitting in the classroom portion before pre-deployment qualification and the instructor was asking questions and we were giving basically textbook answers, he asked how many of us owned our own AR's. I think everyone raised their hand and he was like "well shit, I'm not gonna teach you guys anything. want to just skip straight to the written test and call it an early day?" Bet your ass we did.
The m4 is such a svelte rifle. Most medium caliber service rifles feel bulkier and heavier, and those that don’t borrow heavily from its ergonomics. The fact that so many special forces have free run to choose their primary rifle and run an m4 or variant says a lot about the skill ceiling of such a weapon.
I only qualified once with the M4 in my current six year contract, on the old Marine ART. I was impressed with how accurate that thing still was in wind conditions, even knowing that I had to adjust more than I would on my M16A4. I shot the highest on the range that day with a 241 out of 250.
Great piece. Thanks. My son was part of the 819th Sapper Squad in 2011-12 and this was pretty spot on with what he was issued. As to hardware and ammo, it really comes down to the nut behind the butt... and his spotter. :))
I was issued the FN M4a1 and a FN M4a1 lower on a Daniel defense upper at different times in the Army. Absolutely loved both. I recently built a xm4 upper clone on a H&R m16a1 carbine lower and I absolutely love it. The M4 is a legendary platform.
Are any WW-era bolt guns planned for near future vids? I know you recently did the speedway on the Garand but I'd love to see Henry run one of the older bolt guns for practical accuracy again since there's still a bit of selection we haven't seen there (Type 38, Pick-Your-French-Rifle(Berthier/Lebel/MAS36), Mannlicher, Carcano and so on). Love the content, keep 'em coming.
The first m4 I saw was when I was handed one as a private at my unit. We didn’t have the complete KAC rail yet. You had two choices of optic. M68 or irons. That particular color of red that aimpoint was using I couldn’t see. But at that point, Aimponts were dying a LOT for us. So I got Irons. We had the barrel mount for the PAQ4/peq2, and we had this half rail system for the bottom to mount a “gangster grip” ie knights vert. Before we deployed, we got RFId with ACOGs, ma tech backups, and the complete KAC rail set. My rifle in basic was a new M16a4. When I get to my unit they hand me a rifle that looked like it rode around in the bed of a ranchers pickup for a couple of years. But it was an M4 in a time when half of the 11Bs in the Army were carrying muskets still.
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 I only had one deployment. I got an ACOG a couple months in when they matriculated more in, but I deployed with only those Matechs, the actual Irons, PEQ2 and 4 mags that had to be from the 80s. And you couldn’t just buy new mags then. They would’ve had to be preban so easy 100+ a piece. And unmarried private made like 800 a month.
Something about being handed a brand new rifle in basic, then get to your unit and it's a clapped out piece of shit is such an army thing haha. I got a xed out m4 to a1 upgrade that had no finish left anywhere on the lower.
@@brettr6895 I have yet to understand why your rifle isn’t issued at CIF. It should be you to to CIF, sign for your rifle while at the unit, and your company armorer is there to inspect, collect the weapon and then transport to the arms room. We probably wouldn’t have as much weapons maintenance issues with this system. There’s some seriously missed opportunities with this system. Personal responsibility, care of equipment, pride in equipment, higher weapons effectiveness, lower deadlined weapons, etc. If people were personally signed for said weapons, you could even eliminate the company arms rooms. But hey I never went to that fancy college up north.
Such an ergonomic and handy rifle. Like a 10-22 for combat rifles. Easy shooting, light and effective. Easy to tear down, clean and reassemble. Iron sights are great on it and of course the optics options.
Henry, The Marine Corps spends TWO weeks on the range. The first week is marksmanship classes and snapping-in. The second week is firing; 3 days practice, followed by pre-qual day (in case the weather turns to shit on qual day), and finally qual day on Friday. 8531 from '75-'79. Love the show! Jess1344
It would be really cool if in addition to the “speedway”, “practical accuracy”, and “debrief” if we got something like a “field effectiveness” done by Josh. Something close to intermediate ranges, in various field positions on a timed course, incorporating some of the 1st person camera angles utilized in the optics reviews so we could see just how handy a historic piece is for the end user when movement also becomes a factor. That would make for a wonderfully thorough analysis on these rifles.
When my light infantry unit deployed to Afghanistan for 14 months from 09-10 every single M4 was equipped with a TA31 and I'm thankful for that. Not a single M68 was used by our guys in my unit with the exception of support personnel and M249s.
@@9HoleReviews Absolutely not. In fact, they initially had us zero the tip of our chevron reticles at 25 meters. It wasn't until we went to the qual range that we figured out that was catastrophically incorrect. NCO's then finally took out the manuals and figured out their error. We also didn't zero our lasers until we deployed, and we didn't confirm zero a single time the entire deployment despite getting in numerous small arms engagements. 1-12 Infantry 4BCT 4ID.
dude, lol, i swear every unit went through that crap lol. Glad you guys had NCOs who'd at least look for the manuals! Happy you're back safe too :) Also I'm jealous of you guys at Carson, what a gorgeous station.
Im Commander Shephard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel! ... Couldnt unhear that Mass Effect line in my head after your throwback callout to Shephard lol
When Honest Outlaw reviewed the Life Card (tiny folding .22 pistol with terrible ergonomics and sights) he was able to consistently make hits at 50 yards with it while standing. Shooter skill can make a much bigger difference than the weapon.
Nice... A much better representation of an evolving platform in an evolving shooters hands. Thank you for your honesty and this ever improving channel. I look forward to seeing many re-dos. I have said it before... Henry is the next Bond, "James Bond" ; ).
For all the nay sayers I think 9-Hole should redo all the "lesser" scoring runs possible with their current spotting set up and proper spec ammo for the guns. For me it's also interesting to see the improvement and progression they've made as shooters and a team since the original videos.
I was active Army in Europe during 1987 when my support unit switched from M16A1 to M16A2. My first time sighting in with M855, I thought that I had missed twice because I had one hole on my zero target. I adjusted my sights anyway and got another single hole in the center of the zero target. Careful examination determined that I was putting three shots through the same hole. Those FN-made M16A2 rifles were very tight and I feared malfunctions--didn't happen. In 2004 my National Guard Signal Company went to the Middle East armed mostly with M16A2 rifles (my assigned weapon was the M249) and one of the soldiers in my company drew an M4 because she was petite, at minimum height. Qualification was in IBA and ACH. I got to qualify twice while in theater, once with each weapon--I had to borrow an M16A2 and then I qualified with my M249.
I still must say I’ve had great luck with M855 and it’s the perfect pairing for 1/7 twist barrel. They are also issued together in tandem. But I understand the steel target thing I suppose. Federal M855 can be extremely accurate at times and probably bucks the wind better
I remember getting a brand new M4 back around late 97/98. Being in the 10th Mtn we were one of the last infantry divisions to get one. We thought we were high speed at the time lol. If I remember correctly the handle was detachable but still had the regular handguards like a M16. Good video guys.
Hey Henry and Josh. Long time fan here. Have you two ever discussed doing a timed CQB or moving tactical course with some of the firearms you review? Would be an added bonus to see you guys move and shoot (solo to keep danger element to a minimum, of course). Thanks again for the great content! J-Fox
Had to watch this again. I'll tell you Henry, watching some vids that have been posted in the last year, what you said about Army qualification and re-qualifications after basic training, what we have in the current Army in non Infantry units trying to qualify are soldiers inserting magazines backwards, not knowing how to clear malfunctions, inserting rounds backwards and just a horrific display of a lack of training.
@@9HoleReviews I do to. This topic made me think about my deployment to Somalia in '93. I was an Admin Specialist then (later on went to OCS for Infantry thank God) and when I got on the ground in Mogadishu in June of '93, the very same day over 20 Pakistani peacekeepers had been killed in an ambush and I realized I hadn't fired my weapon since Basic which was Nov of '92. Talk about being as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
I was in the Army NG Utah from 2008 to 2018. Shot expert. Never once used an optic. I was a supply sergeant; never understood doing serial number inventory of ACOGs that we never issued out or trained with ever. I even went to a marksmanship course. They never let me use an ACOG... Iron sights are obsolete. Train how you fight.
I would like to see a Block I vs Block II video. Or at least another redemption of the Block I with 77gr to get a better comparison to the Block II video. Y’all are awesome
Great run and debrief! I especially appreciated the ammo discussion; my initial thought was that M855 should have been used for consistency's sake. Henry's quick history of the M4 also showed me that the change from 20" M16s was not the step down that I had assumed. Regarding range time for various units: How much training up with firearms are support units supposed to get before deployment?
I have watched more than a few of these guys videos and Henry can shoot the piss out of most any rifle. Shows he must have good fundamentals of marksmanship. Keep sending the lead boss.
Great video gents. Very cool to see you guys dialed in and redoing previous rounds with similar weapons. The one I’d like to see is a redo of the Wolfa1 upper/T91 you guys did last year (22) or (21), can’t recall. I have one such upper, haven’t had an opportunity to shoot it at steel or paper but given current world situations, it’s a weapon that would see heavy use. It is a cool offshoot of the M16/AR family and I think deserves another spotlight on the range. Keep doing what you do.
You guys are great. And, I agree with everything you both said. However, I know that there is a substantial difference in results based on ammo used, and knowing where the impacts will be compared to hash marks on the ACOG. Glad you did the redemption run!
The big advantage of the M4 is that it will function as a rifle perfectly well at typical infantry contact ranges. Its functions extremely well as a PDW at closer ranges and even better as an SMG for room to room urban fighting or as a weapon for lead scouts on jungle patrols. The XM7 does one of those things yet requires far more focused training to do so. Its completely shit at the last two things. Its has about as much chance of becoming a universal rifle as the E11 Blaster.
This is a silly comment but I am glad you guys have partnered with Midway. I even got my first ad while watching a mouse review. One of the more pleasant ads 😀
The first AR I bought was a Colt 6040, ten years ago. Hunted with it in snow and other adverse conditions and love the rifle. With a Geissele trigger and handholds it will shoot 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups.
I think the military is making a mistake replacing the M4A1 rifle. An expense we can't afford. The US military has along tradition of picking the wrong gun. The 30-40 Craig over the Mauser the 1903 over the M1917 the M-14 over the FN FAL in the British intermediate cartridge and the M60 MG over the MG-42/MG-3. So I'm sure they'll screw the pooch again and drop the M4A1 in 5.56X45 for a cartridge that will be harder for new recruits to use.
I own a Windham MPC which is a civilian version of this rifle. This is a very useful video for learning my rifle. I use irons only. Thanks for the video.
So many barrel options, and a few calibers. When I got my first MWS, LMT had .243, .260 rem, 07-08, 6.5 CM, and .308 barrels. Been shooting a 13.5" CL lightweight, it's pinned and welded with a Smith Vortex.
I have the newer version. The MARS-H with a 13.5 LWT stainless barrel, a 16 inch stainless barrel, and a 20 inch 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. All will shoot sub MOA with match ammunition.
Used to get hits out to 350 (if i was lucky) with my SA80 (L85 A2)....which has a 20 inch barrrel.....and this M4 hits easily out to 500 with a 14 inch.....
I was hoping you would mention the Vietnam era XM177 or CAR-15 and you didnt disappoint. Many people are not aware that the collapsible stock and short barrel have been around for a long time. Well before the M4 and A2 Carbine.
I'd say that M193 is more accurate than M855; but there are 55-grn and 62-grn loads that are fantastically more accurate than M193 and M855. M855 isn't as accurate as M193 because of the three-part bullet design; there is traditional cup-and-core 62-grn ammunition that is just as accurate (and in some cases, more accurate) than M193.
The wind has a little more affect on 55grain than 62grain. Also M855 has a similar over all length to a 69 grain so it handles wind a bit better still. The non homogeneous core of the M855 can affect accuracy but how much varies from batch to batch.
In my personal experience, M855 has been quite accurate. Obviously, nothing compared to some more specialized loads, but I think the internet has done this round an injustice. I hear horror stories about 4 -6 MOA, which may be true to the rifle used, but does not give a realistic expectation for the ammo. I wouldn't expect sub-MOA groups from any ''military ammo'', but M855 has consistently been a 1.5 - 2 performer (in my experience at the range) depending on the barrel.
@@brentharrington9235 I've used 62 grain exclusively and have 0 problems with it. Both Colt rifles and an FN are ~2moa with this round. None of the rifles are anything specialized, just carbines. There again, 55 grain is just as good. I've always said pick a load, zero your rifle and enjoy.
@@brentharrington9235 I agree and have had similar results with several uppers and different brands. PMC is not as hot as Federal or Winchester but very accurate in my experience and that's through multiple shooters and barrels. Internet legends rarely manifest in reality. I've got sub MOA with 77 grain through a 1 in 9" twist. I've got similar with 55 grain through a 1 in 7" twist. And that's out to 250 yards.
"...to fall in line with General Shepard." Same shit, different day; history is written by the victor; what the hell kind of name is Soap? A great run, and a great discussion afterward. I love all the photos and training footage they roll while they chew the fat 👍 I have 2 AR-pattern guns, both just built to taste. As I get older and more nostalgic, I do want some rifles that harken back to this or that era. I think I've narrowed it down to the M4A1 that was the new hotness when I was a kid, and something resembling the M16 Dad carried in Vietnam. AKs, even the 'cheap' ones like my Romanian WASR, are badass. There's a reason AKM is the age-old rival of AR... but it seems almost obvious that the AR is objectively superior concerning things like weight of ammunition, field serviceability, and even reliability in terms of preventing ingress of debris. With ever more footage of people using both platforms, both in combat and in competition, I think there's less and less vehemence behind the claims of AK superiority. I do however believe that AKs in wood look unequivocally cooler than ARs, retaining the old-school iron & wood aesthetic of military rifles of yesteryear. "When the rifles were wood and the men were iron" and all that, plus you get to say it's a .30cal instead of .22, way more macho :D
![M16A2 to 500yds: Practical Accuracy ...was Eugene Stoner wrong? [ USMC experiences in Iraq ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sqOiTXmi1QU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Protecting Pres. Trump (US Secret Service) at Lethal Weapons TX 2024 [SMG match]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J5MEJCvhj4k/mqdefault.jpg)
I would love to see a discussion about m855 vs m193, or even m855a1, mk262, etc. I really value what you guys have to say about these sorts of things... good shooting, and great video as always
+1 for this topic
This would be a great episode
I have seen where recently made civy m855 was getting lower velocity compared to same brand from prior to 2019.
Cut 1mm off the tip of 62 gr M855 or M193 and it opens up at like 1800 fps or lower.
Does not affect accuracy believe it or not.
Add another vote for an in depth discussion regarding 55, 62 and 77 grain and other variants. Ball to match grade.
I love how Henry's old bag and his uniform choice for today *were* the same colors at one point...
ACU kit ages really weirdly
@murphy7801 it's the washing. pretty sure most people don't pay attention to the labels. it's not just a ucp thing, ocp washes out and looks like ass too if you don't do it right.
There is an FM on washing uniforms, thus, no one reads it.
The bag is the only time UCP actually looks like a camo
The M4 is a capable weapon that is highly adaptable and can be effective *in the right hands.* M150 aka TA-31RCO was the pinnacle when it came out.
When I was an instructor at Benning we could get basic students hitting 500+ with ease. At a hands-on demonstration for locals and dignitaries we had some 'cold' time on the line. At my station there was a 9 year old girl and her father, so we did some dime drills and marksmanship techniques. The father was excited to see his daughter shoot the carbine!
When we went 'hot' she worked up to 250 m (the longest distance at that range on the pop-up targets) then proceeded to go 9/10 at 250.
He was prouder than I, but just barely.
Wow that's some story..so basically these beware sights r so good, even someone with the most basic shooting skills can hit 300 + yards with ease
"I wanted to make it harder to hit my target" said no one ever
Are there any books or resources available to the public for those shooting techniques?
Effective range is exactly where it’s expected to be. Man I love the M16/AR/M4 platform. It’s so predictable and repeatable, and not to mention effective in just about every way for modern infantry combat.
Well said.
Both the AKM and the M4A1 get less respect than they deserve... Shoot them both first, criticize later!
@Riorozen Eh this will always be never-ending debate because simply both 14.5" and 16" lengths have their advantages and disadvantages, and "both sides are right". But honestly 14.5" seems optimal for what it is - a carbine, and it was a very logical choice. It retains optimal velocity for terminal ballistics of 5.56 to these 120-140 meters which are critical to infantry combat, while being light and maneuverable. AR-15s with govt barrel are very front heavy, so even that 1.5" less makes a difference in handling. And for taking out more distant targets you have marksmen and MGs.
Please stop saying that. You will bring AK fanboys to attack you 😂
@@digduck9463 held an AK-47 in my hands when I was 13. Befriended the 🪖 soldier who had it. I've also seen an M4 and held one. It's a very tight, well put together instrument. That comes straight from an AK fanboy like me! Given the choice, both weapons would bring out the best in you in times of urban combat, I can guarantee you that!
You're absolutely right about the Army Qual. Especially in the Reserve side.
I've got a bunch of good shooters and a bunch of, respectfully, pretty poor shooters.
And the difference is the good ones own rifles at home. But the bad ones have to struggle along with the Army system which gives them very little real practice or training.
Some people aren’t born into wealthy families or live in bumfuck America where people have sex with their cousins.
The new Rifle Qual is way more effective
Rifle qual days were the best. I'd qualify my first try then chain smoke cigarettes and eat MREs the rest of the time lol.
Hahahahaa you think the army is bad? The usmc every “rifleman” doesnt even qual every year cuz of low budget and too much hours to work
Exception is USAMU Service Rifle Section delivering marksmanship training. There is no better training as proven by results.
Then there was me who was qualifying on an M16A2 all the way to 2016.
That’s a blessing in disguises and a rarer opportunity in the later days that not many experienced
I showed up for my second deployment in 2007 with an M4.... and it was immediately co-opted by a HUMINT dude. Back to the A2.
M16A4 is goated
M16A2 2008
I qualified on an M16A2 up until 2018. That old girl is still the smoothest shooter. No carbine can ever compare to the 20-inch.
In ‘95, I was an Army CI Agent in 1st Group and we had just been issued the SOPMOD M4 and was deployed to Haiti in support of 3rd Group. I taped a 4 cell Maglight under the fore grips like a 203. It worked and I just took it off when I didn’t specifically need it. I’ve enjoyed the M4 since. Great channel!
I was in 1st Group at that time. We had a few teams from 1st go to Haiti. Did you know Billy Adams and Nate Chapman?
I actually asked Henry about whether he would re-run the M4A1 a few videos ago, and he replied "yes". Nice work!
I was in an Army Airborne unit 2003-2005. In our 2005 deployment anyone armed with an M4 had an ACOG. Including the HQ PLT. I loved the ACOG.
I just recently put together an M4 style rifle with a 14.5 inch barrel with a pinned and welded flash hider. Something about it is just so satisfying. I end up training with it more than my FN or my BCM.
31:30 I think the takeaway here is that skill is still the deciding factor, at least in the context of AR vs AK or other relatively modern rifles. That said, I think it would be interesting to see 2023 Henry do another run with one of the AKs. Not a redemption run per se, but more of a comparison to the baseline set in this video. Great discussion as always
I think this is a pretty direct comparison and also shot pretty recently:
ua-cam.com/video/LwFASO_IFAQ/v-deo.html
Maybe the comparison could be against a modernized AK with the same acog and equally good ammo in 7.62 (ggg is pretty good stuff but Tula steel case maybe not)
Love you guys. Your relationship reminds me of my friends!
Thank you, Henry and Josh. We appreciate all your valuable testings and enjoy your discussion dialogues and Cousin Harry skits. Rock on.
Carried one for years down range and now as a patrol rifle, my Colt is nearly 20 years old and still beats many new “Gucci “ versions even after 10k down the barrel.
.je❤😂😂plug
Still the best standard-issue combat rifle ever fielded...and the ACU is still the worst standard-issue combat uniform ever fielded.
A poodle shooter which in over 70 years service has never won a ground battle
A poodle shooter who was outranged and out powered by 100 year old real rifles
@@scoutdynamics3272you have the most fudd channel I’ve seen jn awhike
@@scoutdynamics3272uh have you ever heard of fallujah? If you don’t know what your talking about please stop talking. On your channel you go on about scout rifles. Have scout rifles ever won a major ground battle?
@@fury556 Actually, when you tried to fight with infantry alone, you were sent packing at Fallujah! Even the Marines had to retreat! It was only using air assault and armor with the poodle shooter finishing off the half dead that Fallujah fell. And even then, the enemy have you a hard time
Have you ever thought of making practical accuracy test using the battle zero of rifles ? Like the P setting on AK-74 and such . That could be a decent exemple of upside and downside of such setting and could be quite instructive
36y zero with a red dot on an AR is EZ mode unlocked
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 might shows downside at 450 and 500 yards tho . And explaining that in a video would be good content imo
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 agreed, for anything the standard person will be doing.
Agreed! AK, M16A2/ M4A1, and M14 BZOs would be great service rifle iron sight tests! Could also turn right around and run the course "dialing" those respective sights for the different ranges for a good comparison within the same platform, and discuss the differences.
THAT WOULD BE AMAZING!
Your debrief really explained that disciplined practice and experience gains you much better performance than "improving" an already capable weapons platform. And, of course, that Texas weather in August sucks! #newslettergang
Back in 07 as a PVT I had an M16 with gooseneck M68 because everyone who had just come back from Iraq had the M4s and the SQDN was short on them.
14:32, hey thats me in the foreground, that photo is wicked old, awesome to finally be a star!
Dude when was that? Like 02/03?
I've done almost the exact same thing in the US army as the beginning of this video with my issued M4. We were on a target range training Afghans, and I was shooting out to 450yd and 500yd with my M4 using an EOTech (military issue) and 3x flip away zoom (personal device). I was hitting at 450 and 500 with Ease using Kentucky windage just like you guys did, was almost effortless. I love the M4/M16 (we ran M16A4 with irons in Ramadi).
My unit was also issued the Aimpoint M2 and Tijicon ACOG that deployment as well, and so everyone got their choice of optic.
If I were in combat again tomorrow, there is NO other current rifle I know of that I would pick over the M4, unless my role was specifically as a designated marksman. The M4/M16 platform is just dominant in so many ways, and I'm comfortable with it and understand its accuracy as well. And being a mechanical engineer I know a few things about the design most shooters just never grasp, despite tons of videos online demonstrating/proving those attributes.
I would never pick an AK or the XM5 as my primary rifle of choice.
I second that.
Love to see you guys discuss the fact that both of you have gotten better. As individuals and as a team. It has made a visible difference over the years. So any of the early stuff could be subject to a revisit.
its pretty crazy how quickly the commercial/ aftermarket industry for ar-15's exploded after say 2010... the internet certainly helped. even back in the early 2000's.. it wasn't like now where you can find pretty much any ar part you want from numerous dealers online, usually from a super cheap option to a high quality premium one..
I did Midnight Brutality and "the kids" in my squad were all "what is THAT?!" about my m93 stock. The first Magpul! It is kinda meh but it _was_ baller af as fuck in 2005!
I think the two key periods that caused the AR market to metaphorically explode was the sunset of the FAWB in 2004 and the fallout from the Sandy Hook shooting in late 2012/early 2013; the former allowed manufacturers to sell un-neutered AR's to people in 44-45 states again, along with normal 11+ round magazines, forcing manufacturers to innovate because not everyone wanted a basic A2 or M4 configuration. 2012/2013 poured proverbial fuel on the fire since it was the first serious attempt to reintroduce an FAWB, and is in large part why US gun owners have been buying an average of 1 million AR-15 or AW-type firearms annually since 2013.
"M93 stock".... "now that is a name I have not heard for a long time..."
@@Verdha603 Or doing the 80% thing.
@@Hansengineering Yep. And a gangsta grip up front
perfect timing! i just finished a 14.5" build! its my favorite, idk why , it just seems like the perfect balance of performance and overall size, plus its a "rifle" so no pistol brace or nfa sbr BS
Being an ultra-pog Marine who is of an average size who never deployed I never got to shoot or even really handle the M4 that much, but I definitely am surprised how accurate they are every time that rifle shoots. Its insane.
Henry was a ultra POG as well
I was very POG as well (german Bundeswehr). Yet I went to the range almost monthly. Because I always signed up to go. I also met US army POGs at the range several times. At the end of service I had gathered 3x the Schützenschnur in Gold. I realised that in the Bundeswehr you can have a lot more range time as a POG than in other nations armed forces. I asked several ..
@@AK-hi7mg I had plenty of range time for being a POG, I took it up on myself to get better on my own time and shoot my personal weapons, I just still never got to handle the M4. My weapon was an M16A4 and then a standard 16 inch AR for my training medium outside of work
@@kennywolfjr.6413 ah ok. It sounded like you didnt get any range time at all. Do you ever regret not going infantry ? I had a comfortable life in the army. Had my own office and single room in the barracks later on with only one other guy living at the end of the floor. I always wanted to do more while I was in , and I volunteered for deployment to Kosovo but the unit that was deploying had filled all spots before I got the chance. Otherwise I always had it so comfortable that I couldn't see myself living in the woods for a month again.
@@AK-hi7mg I can see how it sounded that way. M4 in the Marine Corps is really infantry or if you're short enough kind of thing, or at least it was when I was in, but I can see how it'd sound like I didn't shoot much lol
I don't regret a thing I did, If much had changed I don't know if I'd have met my wife and had my son. I did that while I was in. Plus my experience wasn't bad, I wouldn't have minded it going to the field more often and actually do my job in the capacity of actually troubleshooting and fixing radios, but other than that I can't complain. I did what I was supposed to, a more exciting enlistment just wasn't in my cards.
TA31/RCO/Chevron ACOG whatever you want to call it is still one of my favorite reticles. I grew up on RCOs with the Chevron then halfway through my enlistment they swapped our Chevron RCOs for RCOs with a horseshoe and dot. I didn’t care for that one as much as the Chevron.
I’ve got some reservations about the terminal effects of 14.5” in extreme cold. I was on a range on Ft Wainwright in February 2006. It was -30°F for the high, and we had black soot coming out our barrels, and the M855 bullets were hitting the paper sideways by 400m. So there definitely was a great muzzle velocity drop, which means that the time the bullet was traveling at the fragmentation velocity threshold M855 needs to do more than ice pick through a body was greatly reduced as well. End state: shorter terminally effective range. I’ve been trying to test out whether the 20” barrel allows for more powder burn thus preserving velocity vs a 14.5” barrel, but I haven’t yet found a day that I could get out to the range in SouthCentral Alaska that has been colder than -10°F (which btw at that temp M855 out of a 20” barrel only loses ~50 FPS between warm gun and ammo to cold gun and ammo, according to my crono, YMMV [the M1 and SKS I shot the same day didn’t seem to lose any velocity]). I also haven’t acquired a 14.5” upper yet (eventually tho).
1/7 probably stabilized anything in extreme cold in a 20in but the 14.5 doesn't have enough time to impart stabilization at those temperatures. Maby 1/5 1/6 would in a 14.5
What you witnessed was one of the very reasons why we dumped the 855. The plants could never get the penetrator exactly centered in the lead mold. So as the bulled traveled on it’s ballistic path, it’s unbalance while spinning caused it to create ever-widening circles as it went down range. Like a big funnel shape. After a certain range, the bullets began a weird wobble that often left keyholes in the targets. And that weird wobble just killed the bullet’s BC and velocity. Some lots were ok, some were not.
@@blackhawk7r221 Which probably explains why every other NATO military still uses M855/SS109 spec ammo because those are actually made to spec unlike the shit that salt lake city churns out. hell, even civvie legal M855 is more accurate. To give you an idea:
Out of a M4A1 Block 1 SOPMOD or a clone:
-Lake City contract M855: 4 MOA (The stuff the US military uses)
-American Eagle M855: 2.5 MOA (American ammo manufacturers average on the low end of accuracy)
-Prvi Partizan M855: 1.5 MOA (Serbian military standard issue for Zastava M21, civilian legal)
-PMC X-LAP M855: 1 MOA (Korean Military standard Issue, civilian legal)
-S&B M855: 1 MOA (Highest average muzzle velocity, civilian legal, in use by multiple european militaries)
-GP90 Swiss: 0.8 MOA (Nominally effective to 300 meters. whatever that means, It just works.)
-ADI F1 SS109 (Australian M855): 0.6 MOA (Best load by far. Very high average muzzle velocity only behind S&B. The Australians only had good things to say about it in afghanistan even in 500+ meter engagements)
Now that is what I call, a good run with the M4A1
Top notch work lads!
Dear 9 Hole Reviews, do a special history and debrief episode on the FN Minimi / M249 SAW since nobody has ever done one on YT yet. The history behind the Minimi is very interesting as it involves the proposed 6 mm SAW cartridge, the obscure contenders, the questionable reliability with standard magazines, and the post production PIP to fix the SAW’s ergonomics.
You've done the block 1, you've done the block 2, when will we see the Block 3 aka the URGI? I'd love to see how a modern setup stacks up.
I'd also like to see the Mk18 "through the years" beginning with fsp, then to the RIS2, then again to the URGI 11.5" MK18. Would be interesting to see even if you come up with a reduced range course for these sorts of very compact carbines(like for example the AKS-74U).
I'd also like to see a modern civillian AR15 thrown into the mix for comparison. Maybe something like a BCM or even a cheap PSA if you'd rather compare a "Budget" Ar to more milspec ones. I mean afterall ya'll have compared like a dozen or more AK variants. I'd love to see that with ARs even if it is boring to some, its an interesting data point.
URGI got dropped.
I think it would be useful to test handguns and rifles in civilian designed scenarios in IDPA or InRange style 2 gun matches. It could prove helpful with the uptick in violent encounters.
@@ravenwing199 Where did you see that?
From the future here: In March 2024, they started publishing videos about the URG-I. I believe they will do a practical accuracy video soon. If not, this comment will age like milk...
After doing such an awesome M16a2 series. I think the A4 needs the same trail
I just love a block1 M4. Very much the grail rifle of my early years and still a favorite.
The M4 is such an amazing rifle. I had no complaints about mine on all my deployments. A lighter trigger was about the only improvement that could made. The 3 round burst was pointless.
I love the discussions you guys have after the target shooting. Its always so informative.
M16a1 definitely needs a redemption run. Palmetto State Armory needs to send you one of their H&R M16a1s, or get a Colt SP-1 for close enough.
My issue H&R M-16A1 from ‘88 shooting M193’s was far more accurate than my follow-on A-2’s, 4’s and M-4’s. Just sayin.
@@blackhawk7r221
I seen the same with the few M16a1's I was issued. Especially when some batches of a2's needed sights adjustment from battle site zero to print on zero targets. FYI my first one was GM Hydromatic, then H&R's 👍
Thing with the A1 is limited to a 1/12 twist which isnt ideal for anything past 55gr. I think H&R is selling a a1 with a 1/7 twist.
Great review, shoot and discussion! Thanks for what you do.
God bless all here.
I always find that when a video discussion about the xm177 come up the point of the barrel being extended to 11.5 is attributed to the point of reliability. However, written records and accounts by SOG members themselves indicated that the real reason for the barrel increase was to further reduce the report of the muzzle blast and the Army requirement to allow for an under barrel grenade launcher to be used on the xm177.
SmallArmsSolutions has a good video on the history of the XM177.
The short gas tube allowed incredibly high pressures that played hell on the cyclic timing.
While true, it seems more like individuals that did not use the weapon before the barrel change are applying current knowledge and experience to actions taken in the past. I have not found any reports from SOG interviews or Military records indicated the barrel increase was due to reliability or parts wear. I could have just missed it, but I do not consider wikipedia a reliable or Accurate source.
@@ANDREW-ih7ku I see what you’re getting at. The book explanation I read was definitely not contemporary to the time.
I think right now is prime time to see a video on the Mk12 Mod 0 and Mod 1. SPRs seem to be gaining popularity and would probably do well for your channel.
We want to see some black powder practical accuracy runs. Springfield 1861 to 300 yards. You can do it!
They did the martini henry
Incredible to see the wind affecting the vapor arc of the bullet at the 500 yard target
I really want an ACOG. Fell in love with the optic in the Army. Problem is they cost more than a house payment.
Sweet optics are way more fun than a mortgage! Buy that shit, you only live once.
$1000 is not that costly, and I saw this not as a big breadwinner
I too have a hard time swallowing that price tag when there are many good optics for much less. They may not take a grenade and survive like the true ACOG but work well. I too want a ACOG but damn it's a lot for a fixed power optic.
Your optic should cost as much as your weapon.
1k for a quality optic is cheap
To echo what you talked about toward the end regarding qualifications and time spent on the rifle -- my enlistment was in the AF in an F-15E maintenance unit. We didn't even qualify once a year, we only did it prior to a deployment. If I had never deployed the only time I would have ever shot an M16/M4 for the Air Force would have been basic training. Now, on our off time? To put it mildly, our squadron was frighteningly well armed. By the time I got out I had gotten up to like 10 or 12 guns (including two nice AR's) and I was on the low end. I was on swing shift (3 PM - ??? [should be 11 PM.... should be]) and I'd hit up the local outdoor range probably once a week around 11 or 12 before work and I'd always run into people from my squadron, or people from the other squadrons (ole Shady J in Goldsboro). Now of course none of this would mean a thing in a firefight because none of us had any kind of combat experience/training but if push came to shove we were all very proficient with the AR platform and enjoyed shooting on our own time, so at least we'd be able to hit stuff. I remember when we were sitting in the classroom portion before pre-deployment qualification and the instructor was asking questions and we were giving basically textbook answers, he asked how many of us owned our own AR's. I think everyone raised their hand and he was like "well shit, I'm not gonna teach you guys anything. want to just skip straight to the written test and call it an early day?" Bet your ass we did.
The m4 is such a svelte rifle. Most medium caliber service rifles feel bulkier and heavier, and those that don’t borrow heavily from its ergonomics. The fact that so many special forces have free run to choose their primary rifle and run an m4 or variant says a lot about the skill ceiling of such a weapon.
I only qualified once with the M4 in my current six year contract, on the old Marine ART. I was impressed with how accurate that thing still was in wind conditions, even knowing that I had to adjust more than I would on my M16A4. I shot the highest on the range that day with a 241 out of 250.
Great piece. Thanks. My son was part of the 819th Sapper Squad in 2011-12 and this was pretty spot on with what he was issued. As to hardware and ammo, it really comes down to the nut behind the butt... and his spotter. :))
I was issued the FN M4a1 and a FN M4a1 lower on a Daniel defense upper at different times in the Army. Absolutely loved both. I recently built a xm4 upper clone on a H&R m16a1 carbine lower and I absolutely love it. The M4 is a legendary platform.
Love these redemption runs! I’d love to see you guys revisit the FAL and M14 at some point.
That rifle is absolutely gorgeous 😍
Are any WW-era bolt guns planned for near future vids? I know you recently did the speedway on the Garand but I'd love to see Henry run one of the older bolt guns for practical accuracy again since there's still a bit of selection we haven't seen there (Type 38, Pick-Your-French-Rifle(Berthier/Lebel/MAS36), Mannlicher, Carcano and so on).
Love the content, keep 'em coming.
Ooh, if possible a type 38!!!
your shooting has definitely improved. more importantly so has your analysis of the weapons and overall video quality.
Had a gunny in the 1980s that would regularly hit silhouette targets at 500 meters from the off-hand position using iron sights on an A1.
Love my block 1 build. It's so nostalgic and it just feels good.
The first m4 I saw was when I was handed one as a private at my unit. We didn’t have the complete KAC rail yet. You had two choices of optic. M68 or irons. That particular color of red that aimpoint was using I couldn’t see. But at that point, Aimponts were dying a LOT for us. So I got Irons. We had the barrel mount for the PAQ4/peq2, and we had this half rail system for the bottom to mount a “gangster grip” ie knights vert. Before we deployed, we got RFId with ACOGs, ma tech backups, and the complete KAC rail set. My rifle in basic was a new M16a4. When I get to my unit they hand me a rifle that looked like it rode around in the bed of a ranchers pickup for a couple of years. But it was an M4 in a time when half of the 11Bs in the Army were carrying muskets still.
Carried an A4 my first deployment, m4 my second. Was a gunner for both. Never had to fire either but training cqb with IBA the m4 was most appreciated
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 I only had one deployment. I got an ACOG a couple months in when they matriculated more in, but I deployed with only those Matechs, the actual Irons, PEQ2 and 4 mags that had to be from the 80s. And you couldn’t just buy new mags then. They would’ve had to be preban so easy 100+ a piece. And unmarried private made like 800 a month.
Something about being handed a brand new rifle in basic, then get to your unit and it's a clapped out piece of shit is such an army thing haha. I got a xed out m4 to a1 upgrade that had no finish left anywhere on the lower.
@@fathead8933 It's insane that you had to buy pre ban mags as a military member. Completely absurd.
@@brettr6895 I have yet to understand why your rifle isn’t issued at CIF. It should be you to to CIF, sign for your rifle while at the unit, and your company armorer is there to inspect, collect the weapon and then transport to the arms room. We probably wouldn’t have as much weapons maintenance issues with this system. There’s some seriously missed opportunities with this system. Personal responsibility, care of equipment, pride in equipment, higher weapons effectiveness, lower deadlined weapons, etc. If people were personally signed for said weapons, you could even eliminate the company arms rooms. But hey I never went to that fancy college up north.
Such an ergonomic and handy rifle. Like a 10-22 for combat rifles. Easy shooting, light and effective. Easy to tear down, clean and reassemble. Iron sights are great on it and of course the optics options.
Henry,
The Marine Corps spends TWO weeks on the range.
The first week is marksmanship classes and snapping-in.
The second week is firing; 3 days practice, followed by pre-qual day (in case the weather turns to shit on qual day), and finally qual day on Friday.
8531 from '75-'79.
Love the show!
Jess1344
I feel so satisfied now seeing the M4A1 score well in 9-hole reviews
It would be really cool if in addition to the “speedway”, “practical accuracy”, and “debrief” if we got something like a “field effectiveness” done by Josh. Something close to intermediate ranges, in various field positions on a timed course, incorporating some of the 1st person camera angles utilized in the optics reviews so we could see just how handy a historic piece is for the end user when movement also becomes a factor. That would make for a wonderfully thorough analysis on these rifles.
When my light infantry unit deployed to Afghanistan for 14 months from 09-10 every single M4 was equipped with a TA31 and I'm thankful for that. Not a single M68 was used by our guys in my unit with the exception of support personnel and M249s.
out of curiosity, did they run you guys through familiarization of the TA31 when the guys usually with M68's got them?
@@9HoleReviews Absolutely not. In fact, they initially had us zero the tip of our chevron reticles at 25 meters. It wasn't until we went to the qual range that we figured out that was catastrophically incorrect. NCO's then finally took out the manuals and figured out their error. We also didn't zero our lasers until we deployed, and we didn't confirm zero a single time the entire deployment despite getting in numerous small arms engagements.
1-12 Infantry 4BCT 4ID.
dude, lol, i swear every unit went through that crap lol. Glad you guys had NCOs who'd at least look for the manuals! Happy you're back safe too :)
Also I'm jealous of you guys at Carson, what a gorgeous station.
@@9HoleReviews It was good while it lasted. And despite our many deficiencies, it was still a solid group of soldiers back then.
Amazing content as always. Keep up the awesome work.
Im Commander Shephard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel! ... Couldnt unhear that Mass Effect line in my head after your throwback callout to Shephard lol
I think it's hilarious to see that we're all starting to realize just how good of a service rifle this actually was, with recent popularity.
Nice shooting as always Captain!
When Honest Outlaw reviewed the Life Card (tiny folding .22 pistol with terrible ergonomics and sights) he was able to consistently make hits at 50 yards with it while standing. Shooter skill can make a much bigger difference than the weapon.
Nice... A much better representation of an evolving platform in an evolving shooters hands. Thank you for your honesty and this ever improving channel.
I look forward to seeing many re-dos. I have said it before... Henry is the next Bond, "James Bond" ; ).
For all the nay sayers I think 9-Hole should redo all the "lesser" scoring runs possible with their current spotting set up and proper spec ammo for the guns. For me it's also interesting to see the improvement and progression they've made as shooters and a team since the original videos.
I was active Army in Europe during 1987 when my support unit switched from M16A1 to M16A2. My first time sighting in with M855, I thought that I had missed twice because I had one hole on my zero target. I adjusted my sights anyway and got another single hole in the center of the zero target. Careful examination determined that I was putting three shots through the same hole. Those FN-made M16A2 rifles were very tight and I feared malfunctions--didn't happen.
In 2004 my National Guard Signal Company went to the Middle East armed mostly with M16A2 rifles (my assigned weapon was the M249) and one of the soldiers in my company drew an M4 because she was petite, at minimum height. Qualification was in IBA and ACH. I got to qualify twice while in theater, once with each weapon--I had to borrow an M16A2 and then I qualified with my M249.
The salty-cog?
On both my Ta-31 and VCOG ive got a fine crosshair, chevron being unavailable. Why have they moved away?
Colt just rocks. As fine a battle implement as ever yet devised.
I still must say I’ve had great luck with M855 and it’s the perfect pairing for 1/7 twist barrel. They are also issued together in tandem. But I understand the steel target thing I suppose. Federal M855 can be extremely accurate at times and probably bucks the wind better
Honestly the best performing green tip I've found is PMC X-Tac 855.
I remember getting a brand new M4 back around late 97/98. Being in the 10th Mtn we were one of the last infantry divisions to get one. We thought we were high speed at the time lol. If I remember correctly the handle was detachable but still had the regular handguards like a M16. Good video guys.
Hey Henry and Josh. Long time fan here. Have you two ever discussed doing a timed CQB or moving tactical course with some of the firearms you review? Would be an added bonus to see you guys move and shoot (solo to keep danger element to a minimum, of course). Thanks again for the great content!
J-Fox
Thats on the way ❤️
Had to watch this again. I'll tell you Henry, watching some vids that have been posted in the last year, what you said about Army qualification and re-qualifications after basic training, what we have in the current Army in non Infantry units trying to qualify are soldiers inserting magazines backwards, not knowing how to clear malfunctions, inserting rounds backwards and just a horrific display of a lack of training.
man, I hope the army gets better. that's all i can say :(
@@9HoleReviews I do to. This topic made me think about my deployment to Somalia in '93. I was an Admin Specialist then (later on went to OCS for Infantry thank God) and when I got on the ground in Mogadishu in June of '93, the very same day over 20 Pakistani peacekeepers had been killed in an ambush and I realized I hadn't fired my weapon since Basic which was Nov of '92. Talk about being as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
I was in the Army NG Utah from 2008 to 2018. Shot expert. Never once used an optic. I was a supply sergeant; never understood doing serial number inventory of ACOGs that we never issued out or trained with ever. I even went to a marksmanship course. They never let me use an ACOG... Iron sights are obsolete. Train how you fight.
I would like to see a Block I vs Block II video. Or at least another redemption of the Block I with 77gr to get a better comparison to the Block II video. Y’all are awesome
Great run and debrief! I especially appreciated the ammo discussion; my initial thought was that M855 should have been used for consistency's sake. Henry's quick history of the M4 also showed me that the change from 20" M16s was not the step down that I had assumed.
Regarding range time for various units: How much training up with firearms are support units supposed to get before deployment?
I have watched more than a few of these guys videos and Henry can shoot the piss out of most any rifle. Shows he must have good fundamentals of marksmanship. Keep sending the lead boss.
Won’t use m855 out of respect for the steel range targets. Maybe if they did a special run on paper targets? Idk .
@@onarampage247 So true! AND THEN he modestly confesses that he has gotten better... 😎
@@jonathanhoup9988 Good point. He did mention that for this purpose, accuracy was not very different.
Two week shake and bake combat skills train-up. I was a cadre training departing units.
5:47 😂 the infamous leaders green book. Still have mine from 2009
There needs to be an accuracy test on the AR-10.
The question is which one? There’s a few. The og armalite is fairly rare.
@@jonathanhoup9988 Let's try the OG Armalite first, then the modernized AR-10, with mloc with attachments and stuff. Just to see how they perform.
Great video gents. Very cool to see you guys dialed in and redoing previous rounds with similar weapons. The one I’d like to see is a redo of the Wolfa1 upper/T91 you guys did last year (22) or (21), can’t recall. I have one such upper, haven’t had an opportunity to shoot it at steel or paper but given current world situations, it’s a weapon that would see heavy use. It is a cool offshoot of the M16/AR family and I think deserves another spotlight on the range. Keep doing what you do.
I doubt it's still in inventory, but I'd love to see another run with the Tavor with an ACOG just to see if it can complete the course this time.
You guys are great. And, I agree with everything you both said. However, I know that there is a substantial difference in results based on ammo used, and knowing where the impacts will be compared to hash marks on the ACOG. Glad you did the redemption run!
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Thank you for making this type of video content. You guys rock!
I want to see the XM7 clean this course. I think it will perform exceptionally.
😂hopefully it doesn't destroy the steel at that range...
@@ASqdrnDA .308 and 6.5 don’t so I wouldn’t expect 6.8x51 to ruin the steel.
@@jiujitsu5000 army should just adopt the MCX Spear LT in 5.56 as a general Carbine and utilize the XM7 as a next gen DMR rifle.
@@jiujitsu5000 exaggerated bull shit? On the internet? Didn’t happen! Never happens!
The big advantage of the M4 is that it will function as a rifle perfectly well at typical infantry contact ranges. Its functions extremely well as a PDW at closer ranges and even better as an SMG for room to room urban fighting or as a weapon for lead scouts on jungle patrols. The XM7 does one of those things yet requires far more focused training to do so. Its completely shit at the last two things. Its has about as much chance of becoming a universal rifle as the E11 Blaster.
Love how he wore the button up and tie with his service coat
How about a Centurion Arms AR-15? I'm interested in seeing how those fare considering Monty LeClair worked on the SPR project.
This is a silly comment but I am glad you guys have partnered with Midway. I even got my first ad while watching a mouse review. One of the more pleasant ads 😀
To make it more realistic have you thought about drinking 10 beers and then getting 3 hours sleep before going to the range ?
That's a typical day for many soldiers including range day.
Add Jack Links for range day.
The first AR I bought was a Colt 6040, ten years ago. Hunted with it in snow and other adverse conditions and love the rifle. With a Geissele trigger and handholds it will shoot 1.5 MOA 5 shot groups.
I think the military is making a mistake replacing the M4A1 rifle. An expense we can't afford. The US military has along tradition of picking the wrong gun. The 30-40 Craig over the Mauser the 1903 over the M1917 the M-14 over the FN FAL in the British intermediate cartridge and the M60 MG over the MG-42/MG-3. So I'm sure they'll screw the pooch again and drop the M4A1 in 5.56X45 for a cartridge that will be harder for new recruits to use.
I hear the US Gov't is going to reissue the M1 Garand for nostalgia purposes. (j/k)
The navy will be getting rebarelled M14s chambered for 6.8... Good for another 35 years
I own a Windham MPC which is a civilian version of this rifle. This is a very useful video for learning my rifle. I use irons only. Thanks for the video.
Would love to see an LMT MWS video
So many barrel options, and a few calibers. When I got my first MWS, LMT had .243, .260 rem, 07-08, 6.5 CM, and .308 barrels.
Been shooting a 13.5" CL lightweight, it's pinned and welded with a Smith Vortex.
I have the newer version. The MARS-H with a 13.5 LWT stainless barrel, a 16 inch stainless barrel, and a 20 inch 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. All will shoot sub MOA with match ammunition.
Thank you for this. It was fun to watch!
Used to get hits out to 350 (if i was lucky) with my SA80 (L85 A2)....which has a 20 inch barrrel.....and this M4 hits easily out to 500 with a 14 inch.....
I didn't know they had a 350 metre point on gallery ranges...
I was hoping you would mention the Vietnam era XM177 or CAR-15 and you didnt disappoint. Many people are not aware that the collapsible stock and short barrel have been around for a long time. Well before the M4 and A2 Carbine.
14.5" is the correct answer
I'd actually like it 1.5 inches longer
and yeah, *that's what she said*
The debrief lunch scene was more than hilarious!🤣🤣🤣🤣 I hear the boys in the field quite enjoy MRE's!
Damn, this isn't helping my urge to clone one at all.
Man I wanna clone soooo many of the rifles on this channel haha
@Levi Davis I just can't shake the lifelong dream of having a rack of US military primary weapons from 1776 to Present
@@joet.s.6283 That's a fantastic dream to work towards! I hope it becomes reality for you someday
@Shootin' Bruin can y'all stop being so supportive of each other. You are ruining the internet. 😆
FN has the collector series of M4 and the M16 … it’s a ready made clone
That's my rifle right there. Beautiful. Love it. Great run.
Surprise, m4 killed it
Excellent discussion gentlemen
I'd say that M193 is more accurate than M855; but there are 55-grn and 62-grn loads that are fantastically more accurate than M193 and M855. M855 isn't as accurate as M193 because of the three-part bullet design; there is traditional cup-and-core 62-grn ammunition that is just as accurate (and in some cases, more accurate) than M193.
The wind has a little more affect on 55grain than 62grain. Also M855 has a similar over all length to a 69 grain so it handles wind a bit better still. The non homogeneous core of the M855 can affect accuracy but how much varies from batch to batch.
In my personal experience, M855 has been quite accurate. Obviously, nothing compared to some more specialized loads, but I think the internet has done this round an injustice. I hear horror stories about 4 -6 MOA, which may be true to the rifle used, but does not give a realistic expectation for the ammo.
I wouldn't expect sub-MOA groups from any ''military ammo'', but M855 has consistently been a 1.5 - 2 performer (in my experience at the range) depending on the barrel.
@@brentharrington9235
I've used 62 grain exclusively and have 0 problems with it.
Both Colt rifles and an FN are ~2moa with this round. None of the rifles are anything specialized, just carbines.
There again, 55 grain is just as good.
I've always said pick a load, zero your rifle and enjoy.
@@brentharrington9235 I agree and have had similar results with several uppers and different brands. PMC is not as hot as Federal or Winchester but very accurate in my experience and that's through multiple shooters and barrels. Internet legends rarely manifest in reality. I've got sub MOA with 77 grain through a 1 in 9" twist. I've got similar with 55 grain through a 1 in 7" twist. And that's out to 250 yards.
"...to fall in line with General Shepard." Same shit, different day; history is written by the victor; what the hell kind of name is Soap?
A great run, and a great discussion afterward. I love all the photos and training footage they roll while they chew the fat 👍
I have 2 AR-pattern guns, both just built to taste. As I get older and more nostalgic, I do want some rifles that harken back to this or that era. I think I've narrowed it down to the M4A1 that was the new hotness when I was a kid, and something resembling the M16 Dad carried in Vietnam.
AKs, even the 'cheap' ones like my Romanian WASR, are badass. There's a reason AKM is the age-old rival of AR... but it seems almost obvious that the AR is objectively superior concerning things like weight of ammunition, field serviceability, and even reliability in terms of preventing ingress of debris.
With ever more footage of people using both platforms, both in combat and in competition, I think there's less and less vehemence behind the claims of AK superiority. I do however believe that AKs in wood look unequivocally cooler than ARs, retaining the old-school iron & wood aesthetic of military rifles of yesteryear. "When the rifles were wood and the men were iron" and all that, plus you get to say it's a .30cal instead of .22, way more macho :D