Marvel Champions: The Verdict on Standard 3
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- How tough is it? Is it fun? How does it compare to Standard 1? After months of experience now, it's time we finally talked about what Standard 3 really does to the game.
AND I FORGOT TO SAY IN THE VIDEO BUT STANDARD 3 IS FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE EXPANSION!
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00:00 Intro
00:45 Shadow of the Past vs. Pursued by the Past
02:29 Advance vs. Dark Designs + how counters work
04:34 Nerdy nemesis chance talk (chart + spreadsheet)
08:36 The differences with Standard 3 + boost effects
12:16 Gang-Up vs. Drawing Nearer
15:04 Summary and verdict
18:27 When to use and not use Standard 3
(Card images in the video are courtesy of Cerebro developer UnicornSnuggler. Huge thanks!) - Ігри
TWO THINGS I MISSED! I blame the heat. NUMBER ONE: Standard 3 comes in the Age of Apocalypse Expansion!
NUMBER TWO: While it's pretty punishing to get a nemesis through a boost effect, you are at least going to be somewhat set up in terms of board state. This is better (in my opinion) than drawing a Turn 1 Shadow of the Past. Overall, I find this is more difficult on average but preferable overall, with the nemesis set coming in, to the randomness from Standard 1's Shadow of the Past. Just wanted to elaborate on that!
I call Turn 1 Shadow of the Past "okay im just gonna reset this game now".
Haha, that's fair!
I feel this lol
haha i feel yah
I really like the counter system in standard 3. Knowing that it is coming and being able to prep for it. Nemesis coming out during a boost can be pretty brutal though.
I do love a good counter system haha, it's fun to be able to predict and play around stuff. A small piece of order in a game full of random events.
I go back and forth on which one i like. I typically use these to keep multiple villain decks built st once for some quick games with the kids, keeping setup minimal. The extra custom standard sets from designhacker and con of heroes works well as well.
Both S1 and 3 are about the same in my eyes for what I want but I typically have a less swingy experience with s3, as the data shows. Smoother experience is nice, but sometimes the pressure of something crazy is exciting as well.
I find it interesting that treachery removal cards are probably less effective against s3 because instead of stopping one card each cycle, you have to stop multiples. Talking grappling hook, get behind me, enhanced spider sense, Silk recursion, etc.
Agreed that treachery removal is a little weaker. I've seen people say it's unaffected, but without a single Shadow of the Past to block I find it worth less than before. Sure, you can be one counter away from it going over and then block the encounter card that adds the final one, but chances are your next encounter card could also bring your nemesis in. And hey, maybe a boost effect just brings it in and you never have a Shadow of the Past-equivalent as an encounter card to block.
Boost cancels went up in stock though.
I totally agree with you. From Age of Apocalypse I had starting using only standard 3 (happy to’ face more often the nemesis), but ‘cause I play a lot in Heroic mode, I find that for some heroes (like Phoenix or Venom), as you noticed, is a really terrible nightmare facing their nemesis over and over again with 2 encounter cards at a time ( or 3 in the case of Ronan)
Oof, I dread to think what Phoenix + Heroic mode looks like with Standard 3!
I had antman on my team when yellowjacket and his side scheme showed. Half my table got its power cut. Protection upgrades, rockets thrusters. All my damage, gone.
Standard 3 is usually great though
Yellowjacket's side scheme likes to ruin everyone's fun haha!
My only worry with regards with standard 3 is that, unless I misunderstand the rules and timing, getting a nemesis minion with quickstrike as a boost means that the minion will hit you twice in very quick succession as well as the villain. If your nemesis has a high attack (for example, Vulture or Baron Zemo), that means you're likely to suffer a big spike of damage that's a bit out of the scale for what most encounter cards do.
Yep, double Quickstrike effectively. Pretty brutal in a lot of circumstances.
Great rundown on the differences, very well done! I personally love the change. I think having the nemeses come out with some increased regularity significantly improves the fun and flow of the game. Turn 1 shadows is pretty rough, but never getting shadows sometimes is a little easy. I don't know that I love losing gang-up, because that can be pretty punishing against minion collection decks or decks that just aren't dealing with minions well, but I think its worth the trade-off ;).
And worse case you can go back to Standard 1 for some of that Gang-Up goodness!
Love how compact this video. I love Standard III because it feels less bad when you get hit by Shadows. But boy, the nemesis entering as a boost card is brutal because there is so many nemesis that does something as an attack.
Yep... And nemesis minions with Quickstrike attack twice before Step 3 of the villain phase even starts...
I think for me a big difference is one of aesthetics; the standard 1 sets are SO iconic, getting Advance in alter ego and seeing the Red Skulls face - terrifying! Standard 3 is. like, 'What one's that, now?, Who's that on the card? (Still don't know). Even the wording - so simple and direct in S1 - so wordy and convoluted in S3 . The system itself is okay, but I think I still prefer, like Vancity 3, standard 1 with 2 shadows of the past (the extra one from standard 2).
Totally fair. I like the Nowhere is Safe art but I do agree that I mostly prefer the Standard 1 art. Shadow of the Past and Advance are just especially iconic.
As usual, fantastic content Villain, keep it up. As for this, I've only been playing Standard 3 since its release. Because I sometimes like to pack up some MC to take with me to work (yes I have a summer job like that, good times) I decided to take Standard 1, because it's logistically easier, without the counters required for it and all. And surprisingly enough, I think I like S1 just as much as S3. With S3 I found my nemesis would arrive on schedule at very consistent points throughout most matches (about the 2/3 mark of the encounter deck, if I had to guess), whereas with S1 it's always a surprise. I understand some use the term 'variance' as a pseudo-slur in this space, but I found the nemesis showing up only sporadically to be more engaging and exciting when they did. I found S3 far more predictable; less variance, sure, but for me, less exciting.
That's totally fair. I should perhaps have talked about it here, but I do think losing the thrill of surprise is the biggest downside of Standard 3. Which is funny because I really like how much more predictable on seeing the nemesis set is in Standard 3. Pros and cons, good to mix up both perhaps in the long run - at least for me.
Variance should definitely not be seen as innately negative. The randomness is card games is what makes them so engaging. In Marvel Champions, every turn you have a different hand of cards - that's a brand new puzzle in itself to take on the random puzzle that is the board after random encounter cards. Random solutions for random problems, and making the best of it. That's the hook and I love it.
There are some characters I have played lots of games with and never seen their nemesis sets. Like the idea that standard 3 makes this side of the design space more of a frequent encounter.
Nice! I'm glad of that too as I think I said in the video, a very welcome addition
I like standard 1 more because I don't want to see the nemesis most games. A turn one shadows can be backbreaking, but I like the challenge, and it doesn't happen often.
That's fair! I think a lot of people prefer Standard 1 and it's great we have both. I would love a Standard 4, 5 and 6 now!
Another great video!
I keep my mind standar 3 is easier, as you said is has a maybe "free" encounter card, also the obligation does nothing as it comes in play... so maybe 2 card "free" encounter cards, to keep that in line it has de option to bring your nemesis as a "boost".
If the obligation hits the table you can have control on when does the shadow of the past efect triggers, so you can prepare for it, making it easier than a surprise shadow of the past.
In standar 1, any counter card can hit shadow of the past in this one you won't have enough counters to face all this effects, that's a point for standar 3.
When I'm using standar 3 I am also using Expert 2 to boost it up. (I play mostly 2 handed or multiplayer)
Thks!
Expert 2 is a fun way to boost it, nice! We've been debating the difficulties on Discord and there's a lot of points in both Standard 1 and 3's favour. It's so interesting how many factors there are.
I only use standard 3 now it just flows a lot better and makes for a much healthier and balanced game in my opinion.
Nice! That's great to hear
Based on my recent experience, encounter decks with discard effects can delay the Nemesis in Standard 3 quite a bit - in my recent 3 player game deck and a half of encounter cards passed by before the final counter was placed.
Yep, great point. I can't remember if it made the final cut of the video but I agree. On the other hand, discard effects can also discard Shadow of the Past so it's hard to weigh exactly how much it affects the comparison
Hi Villain! This was a really interesting video. I particularly like the analysis of cumulative probabilities of getting your nemesis in play depending on how many turns have been played. The kink in your Standard3 curve didn't make sense to me, so I created a python script that simulates card draw from a 30 card deck with the 7 cards from Standard3 shuffled in. It then runs 1 million games and keeps track of how long it took to get to 4 counters (solo game), and creates a probability distribution. I get a similar but slightly different result to what you got and I thought you might be interested to compare. There are plenty of assumptions, as you noted in the video, so it is a bit of an academic exercise, but in case you'd like to see the results I'll try to find a way to send the Excel file and the python code to you :) Thanks for the great content, keep it coming!
Hey! Thanks for doing this! I received your email and it's definitely very interesting. Did your effort include getting counters off boost effects too?
Yes, I accounted for the four cards that have boost effects. The code creates a 30 card deck and just keeps track of the standard 3 cards, drawing one as a boost card and the next as an encounter card each turn. Then it just continues drawing like that until at the end of a turn there are 4+ counters. It records how many turns that took and that is one “game”. Then I made it play 1 million games like that. At the end it tallies up how many games finished in 1 turn, 2 turns etc.
Oh, and for Drawing Nearer I just added one counter (assuming a typical single printed resource card is revealed) and then assumed that the player dealt with the obligation. I could also run a different simulation in which the player ignores it and see what effect that would have… actually now that I’ve said that I am curious to see what the effect would be. You will get a different probability curve based on the ‘ignore the obligation’ strategy. I’ll let you know how that comes out ;-)
Getting my AoA box delivered next week so excited to finally try some Standard 3. Really enjoyed the analysis (more graphs please)
Oh nice, enjoy it! And I'll see if I can find some more graphs!
I have just started using S3. (I did Proxy them, my only such cards, and sleeved into S1 card backs). I am introducing a new player to the game this coming week, in a 3 handed game along with my son. I hope that S3 is good to go for a new player. I can't decide, but the lack of boost icons may help early on.
Nice! I do think Standard 3 is a little more complicated than Standard 1, but as long as you're helping to run the game I don't think it will make a big difference and may be more fun (simply because I think Standard 3 is more fun overall).
Something to note it is it has the same amount boost icons, but not boost effects. So the villains will ATK/SCH for the same on average.
100% agree with you. That was my first impression when I started using it. I see my nemesis almost every single game, which makes it obviously harder. so I was already a bit iffy on the whole "the difficulty is around the same as Standard I" statement. Sure, it's not THAT much harder, but in my experience, it still is, especially with 2 players. During long games (Mutant Genesis Campaign, Expert Magneto yesterday) we both saw our nemesis. And getting it via boost is... rough. Not having Gang Up is nice, but if Gang Up kills me, it was already pretty much over to begin with.
But it's also more fun, I completely agree. Nice analysis as always!
Thank you! You know, I wonder if I should have said about how much harder I think it is in comparison. It varies so much due to randomness. A game with Standard 1 can be just as hard if you draw Shadow of the Past on Turn 5 in comparison to a game with Standard 3 where an revealed effect adds the final counter. Gang-Up and Drawing Nearer can both be boost cards and you won't notice a difference.
But "on average" I would put Standard 3 at roughly 25% more difficult, but you could argue they peak around the same difficulty with bad luck. (Nemesis on Turn 1 more likely with S1 vs. Nemesis as a boost effect more likely in S3.)
It varies a lot with the hero too. Heroes with weak nemeses see much less of a difference...
@@VillainTheory I feel the same. I've played Standard 3 a lot, both solo and with 2 players. Just yesterday I finished an expert Mutant Genesis campaign, me piloting a Leadership Magik and my friend a Protection Iceman. Against Magneto, we already had 4 counters on the Pursued by the Past by the end of turn 1. We were praying that we won't get that last counter anytime soon, but we were unfortunate enough to get it on turn 4 (and that's kind of lucky). We almost lost even though Iceman's nemesis isn't exactly the worst, but we already had our plate full with Magneto's cards. That 3ATK quickstrike was rough (I think you mentioned a similar example in the video? Might be remembering wrong.) Later that game I got my nemesis as well, and the counters were almost about to pop a third time by the very end.
I think it also depends on the villain. If it's a more difficult villain that throws a lot of stuff against you, it can be bad even if your hero is strong and has a not very difficult nemesis. But 25% more difficult on average seems about right to me. It might've been nice to mention it in the video, but the video is totally fine as is, the data is more or less telling enough.
I play either 2 or 3 player. For us we always play with 2 copies of shadows of the past and also seek and destroy. Doesn't matter if we are playing standard or expert. Usually end up adding one nemesis set per game at the minimum and find that to be quite fun. I probably wouldn't use this encounter set as I don't like the idea of it not being a surprise as much.
It sounds like you might get your nemeses out just as much already ha! A fun and brave twist. Very cool
Great topic and sound logic.
I think I want to see the nemesis sets come out more often. I get pretty lucky with S1 and would estimate I get shadows of the past between 10/20% of the time.
I do like the surprise of S1 though. Cyclops will be beating on a villain and completely unaware that Mr Sinister is about to pounce literally from the shadows.
I’ve only played S3 a couple times so can’t comment on what I prefer. I completely avoided S2 because of the bad press it got. I should probably give it a go to see if it’s really that bad.
The surprise factor and scramble to recover is a really fun part of Standard 1!
...Good luck with Standard 2! Don't put it on Ronan!
I recently had a solo game where I got 4 pursuit counters on turn 1, with a Dark Designs as my boost card and an Evil Alliance as my encounter card. Good to know that I shouldn't expect that to happen for another 250 games!
For the chart by royal7, is the S1 curve the cumulative chance to have pulled Shadows of the past (meaning anytime from turn 1 until turn X), or just the chance on your encounter card step of turn X (so for turn 5, there are 21 cards in the encounter deck to draw from, so the chance to pull Shadows is 1/21). I'm only asking because I can't derive how they got their answer, and any attempt I do to recreate it comes up with a higher likelihood of drawing Shadows. For example, a 30 card encounter deck has 15 boost cards and 15 encounter cards. Meaning that after cycling the encounter deck, you would have drawn Shadows 50% of the time as an encounter card. So for it to only be at 38% after turn 14 seems a bit off to me.
Hm! Looking at it, I kinda think you are right. I will have to message them in case there's anything we're missing!
Great Vid VT. U should compare all three in a video. Would like to see that.
Standard 2/Expert 2 is something I should play more in general, I've not dusted them off in a while. Definitely would be fun to talk about them!
Another thing with standard 3 that increases difficulty: because it takes several turns to bring in your nemesis, the encounter deck is usually low when they enter play. So the extra encounter cards are usually drawn within a few turns of the nemesis (and like you mention with the nemesis, they are designed to counter your hero and the cards typically hit harder).
Great point! And interestingly, with some of the weaker sets, that can actually weaken the encounter deck. But overall absolutely it can be punishing.
I really like Drawing Near and the boost effect of counters. Actually getting a nemesis as a boost effect can be traumatic 😂.
I'd say S3 is more difficult and basically about the same as I'd be surprised if it had more than 1% impact on win rates.
Interesting, I'd wager it has a higher percentage change on win rate but nothing remotely close to Standard 2 obviously
@@VillainTheory on thinking about it it was a very nebulous thing to say. I'd very much doubt it even alters a 90% win rate down to 89% but it might knock 25% down to 23%.
Anyhow I've played around 100 games with S3 and I lost one to Shadow as a boost (Venom) QED. 😃
I dunno... going from "you rarely see your nemesis" to "you're practically guaranteed to see your nemesis" is IMO a bit of an overkill. I think I'd kinda prefer it to stay a special occasion of sorts.
Totally fair! I do have the advantage of playing a lot of 2-player, so there's still suspense over who gets their nemesis. Though sometimes we get both eventually in one game haha
I actually really like standard 3 and may end up playing it more than Standard 1. I may keep 1 with the really hard villains or times I just don't want to deal with the Nemesis, or with Phoenix since I like her risk reward system and don't like how this set just kinda nullifies it. I have a homebrew rule with SOTP where if I pull it with Jean I remove a token from her and if she still has at least one just just put out Dark Phoenix with minus 1 health per token on Jean up to 6. Also Jean can't gain tokens until DP is beaten. Then at the end of every hero phase if DP is still out I remove one token and once all tokens are removed DP heals to full and the side scheme comes out. This process isn't necessary but I like keeping Jeans Nemesis set and obligation unique.
Another thing I have liked to do is replace the encounter sets with the nemesis sets then if SOTP is pulled bring out the minion and SS as usual then add one of the encounter sets in I would otherwise have started with so I can actually try out Nemesis' that never seem to come out. This set looks to be a better way to do that
Interesting homebrew! And I definitely think Standard 3 will help you see those elusive nemeses that have been avoiding you!
I tend to break down my villain decks after play and store my Standard1 in the villain deck box
So you forgot another reason to choose Standard1 over any of the others - sheer laziness 😂
Honestly convenience/reducing setup time is a great thing to consider for a lot of card game/board game stuff. If it's more difficult, and there are easier options at hand, it will be used less.
Good video, I wish that Nerdy nemesis chart worked that way for me. Turn 1 = 100% Shadow of the Past.
Ahaha, I was going to mention you in the video and forgot. You defy all logic and math 🤣
@@VillainTheory 60% of the time, it works all the time.
Loving Standard III, the other day I got my nemesis turn one while playing Klaw 😖
OOF! Klaw is gonna hit you with the double boost cards, huh. At least his activation damage/threat was hopefully low!
I have mixed feelings on standard 3. I like that standard 3 increases the likelihood of getting your nemesis, but I don't like that it makes it almost certain you'll get it, and I don't like that it can come out on a boost. I don't like the art as much as standard 1. Standard 3 sometimes rubs me the wrong way, so I think I'll default to standard 1 most of the time.
Totally fair! I agree that I overall prefer the art on Standard 1, and part of me wishes it didn't bring nemeses out as a boost - but part of me does like it. Different pros and cons. Curious to see if Standard 4 (one day?) lands somewhere in between.
Oh, I didn’t know if you said this but in multiplayer. There’s super high chance that S3 will appear in a thinner deck, thus, drawing their card. Got hit by Cable nemesis too much to know that
I did say that the chances get much higher in multiplayer! Last time I played Cable (and this was just 2-player) we somehow saw Stryfe three times haha! Cable is cursed.
@@VillainTheory I am more scared of his treachery. Man that things just ends game
Let's gooo!
Woo!
I agree with your points overall. I think S3 is more fun in general, but when I play the same hero in 5+ games in a row, it can get a bit repetitive to have your nemesis come out nearly every game.
That's a great and very interesting point! I rarely play the same hero more than twice in a row outside of testing for a video these days. If anyone else is reading these comments here, I'd love to know if you've also experienced "nemesis fatigue".
@@VillainTheoryYes, I agree with @Anondod. I prefer the unpredictability of S1 as it feels more thematic to not be able to anticipate your Nemesis. D20 wouldn’t be nearly as fun to watch without S1 😂
Another angle (or two?) is whether getting your nemesis set is actually beneficial, especially after turn 5 once you’re set up. A) So many decks profit off of minions and/or side schemes. B) Some nemesis sets thicken the encounter deck with shockingly easy encounter cards vs. the sometimes very hard encounter cards you would otherwise see. In multiplayer, this effect can be even more pronounced: two or three nemesis sets with uncoordinated effects can really ease the pressure you’d have from the scenario’s encounter cards.
Love this and wish I spoke about it a bit. We've had that too. Something else from Standard 3 that we've noticed here in 2-player is that it's often timed so that we're near the end of the encounter deck when our nemesis set enters the game. So quite often we're about to get an acceleration token and suddenly most of the cards we'll see in the next villain phase are the nemesis ones.
On weaker sets you are 100% right, some times it makes things a lot easier then. Other times, with worse nemesis sets, it's awful.
And I think that lends itself to the overall problem with rating the difficulty increase of Standard 3. Heroes with weaker nemesis sets care about seeing theirs a lot less. And heroes with a meaner nemesis get a much steeper difficulty increase.
For my money, I think getting the nemesis sets more often is better overall. I think minions and side schemes are the most interesting types of encounter card, and I think the hit of both at once generally outweighs any benefits that I can think of (though Unleash Nova Force maybe comes closer here, especially with Specialized Training and Side-by-Side...).
@@VillainTheory I agree that generally I do like getting the nemesis more often and generally expecting to see it. With Shadows of the Past, it feels like rotten luck and I’ll sometimes skip it especially if I’m testing a deck (or custom). But with S3, the nemesis set becomes something you expect you could see starting around turn 4-5, so it’s not as feel-bad and you actually feel smart for building your deck / playing in such a way that you can handle the nemesis and side scheme when they hit the table.
@@andyn2854 That's also an amazing point. I mentioned that you can kind of prepare for the nemesis in Standard 3 while it just hits you out of the blue in Standard 1, but you put it in a much more direct and accurate way here that reflects the experience that creates. I wish I had thought of saying that too, ha!
P.S. Are you interested in taking part in a small collab with some other creators in the community? It would end up on my YT channel - and it would ask for a minute or so of video, audio, or 1-2 short paragraphs. However you'd want to contribute. No pressure but I'd love to feature someone else from the custom content community.
@@VillainTheoryYeah, thanks, let me know details and I’ll see if I can contribute.
The fact that the nemesis can come out on a boost card is what really gets me. In my second ever game with Standard III, the Phoenix player (this was a 4 player game) got her nemesis as a boost WHILE IN ALTER-EGO and we went from doing kind of well to all of a sudden biting our fingernails that we wouldn’t automatically lose. All Dark Phoenix needs are 3 boost icons (even less if there are other amplify icons already on the table), or a single copy of Fiery Rage. If the encounter deck was nearly empty when she came in, you’ve almost certainly lost.
Also, if the chance of the nemesis coming out on a boost as opposed to encounter card is roughly 50% (and the difference in difficulty between these two possibilities is significant) does this not add a significant amount of variance to the game? I bring this up because a common argument for Standard III is the reduced variance.
Yeah, poor Phoenix...
It does add more variance in that regard, you are right, but I would personally say it's somewhat made up for by the points. 1) You can generally see your nemesis set getting more and more likely, which means you can prepare for it to some degree. And 2), by happening later, you are set up more and better able to handle it.
It still hurts a lot though, notably with certain nemesis sets, notably when alter-ego. So it's not a perfect solution if low variance is your primary goal.
For me, I think the variance it helps with is whether you will or will not see your nemesis in any given game. For Standard 1, it's often as low as 15-35%. For Standard 3, it's more like 80-95%. So I suppose it's a matter of perspective and what you prefer.
Now do S2
No
Okay maybe
@@VillainTheory 😂😂
How about playing with both standard 1 and 3 together 😅
Ha! Let's kick it up a gear and play with Standard 2 as well!
@@VillainTheory I've done a several S2 & S3 combo option :) {signed, masochist}
Admittedly, this does dilute the Enc-Deck in regards to Villain specific cards, so it **can** be a benefit. Arg, "modular sets"! We love 'em! 😀
Hi. I'm Agent Venom and I'd rather face Standard 2 over Standard 3.
Hi Agent Venom, I'm Valkyrie and I'd like to face Standard 0 (with no way for the nemesis to enter play!?)
@@VillainTheory Hers really is ridiculous lol
@@VillainTheoryguess you're stuck playing wrecking crew