N611VG Citation Intercept and Crash Virginia 4 June 2023
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2023
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UPDATE: 6/6/23 ATC Audio Timeline:
1722:22Z N611VG checks in with Atlanta Center (ZTL) at FL230 and issued a climb to FL290 which was read back correctly.
1725:50Z ZTL issues N611VG a climb to FL340 as the aircraft was passing through FL277. This clearance was acknowledged and read back correctly.
1728:33Z ZTL amends the altitude to FL330 because of traffic in the next sector in Washington Center’s (ZDC) airspace. N611Vg was passing through FL320. This transmission was never acknowledged and ATC was unable to contact N611VG again.
So somewhere between 1725Z and 1728Z (Shortly after takeoff, while climbing out) the event occurred that caused the remainder of the flight to out of contact with ATC. Jb.
Dan thinks pilot incapacitation, do you agree Juan?
@@xDefender11 But not becuase of hypoxia according to him.
ICYMI ANGRY PILOT REPRIMANDS ATC after 2 Aborted Landings at SFO! ua-cam.com/video/DrRGde5J8mo/v-deo.html
Pressurization check is an after takeoff check.
@@rannyacernese6627 yeah well a lot of pilots barely follow what they are even checking. ∆P increasing, cabin VS should be low but positive, cabin altitude just above takeoff.
At 10,000' I check the same again. The ∆P should be higher and VS should be low, and cabin altitude about 1000-2000' above the takeoff.
Transition - again should be about 5.0psi ∆P or higher, VS low, and cabin altitude less than cruise altitude target. About FL250-300 it should nearly be done pressurizing -- this is on older cabin controllers like this Citation. They don't pause the climb of the cabin if you are held low. The Airbus will step the cabin altitude up as needed to stay near cruise ∆P.
Happened to me when ferrying a B737-300. Thank God for Navy hypoxia training. Started feel hot with tingling sensation. Looked at fingernails and they were purple. I realized I was hypoxic, knew I had to get on my O2 mask, but had trouble making my hand do what my brain was telling it to do.Yelled at Captain to Don his mask. It was a close call. Happened fast.
Very interesting. No cabin altitude alarm? Or you heard it and didn't recognize it?
@Jessica V At the time, the same warning could mean 3 different things. Take-off warning horn, cabin altitude or one other I can't remember. The cabin altitude warning was later changed as I recall.
The takeoff warning could be related to trim, flaps, or speed brake. When the horn went off, we were already experiencing onset of hypoxia and having a hard time trying to figure out what was causing the horn to sound.
@@johnwatson9518 Might be time for a voice annunciator system upgrade. Ridiculously simple and cheap to build these days, which means it won't be implemented.
@@johnwatson9518 The Helios 522 737-300 crew heard the cabin altitude horn but assumed it to be the identical-sounding take-off configuration warning. Bad design: human factors 101.
Yeah, the warning horn was changed after Helios 522.
Peterson Air Force Base, Colorado Springs offered Hyperbaric Pressure Chamber training for local Private Pilots in the 1990's. I was fortunate enough to get trained. I was in the best shape of my life, jogging 20 miles a week at 6K Altitude and Hiking over timberline 10K frequently. We were allowed to go off oxygen at 18K feet for 9 minutes.
At 3 minutes roughly 30 percent of the class went back on oxygen because of passing out or loss of color in vision. At 6 minutes we lost another 30 percent of the class. Funny how when instructor put oxygen mask back on, there was a rush of red through the face and look of astonishment on the persons face.
Everyone is affected differently, I made it the full 9 minutes and told instructor "I wasnt affected". He said try simple motor skills, writing first. I started by writing my name. To my surprise, it took every bit of concentration to simply write the first letter of my name. Cognitive skills "seemed" there, but motor skills were definitely shot. Hypoxia is very insideous, you dont know it snuck up on you.
CORRECTION: Washington FRZ- NOT TFR. It's a Flight Restricted Area- Not a Temporary Flight Restricted Area. It's Permanent. www.washingtonfrz.com/Washingtonfrz.com.html
UPDATE: Calls to the Pilot on Guard began just 34 minutes after Takeoff from Elizabethton at 1351lcl. forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/what-i-heard-on-guard-today/
This IS the point of the story and clearly shows they were likely a GHOST SHIP at this time.
Yikes, unresponsive within just 40 minutes? That sounds like the problem was very early in the flight. I wonder if it even came up to pressure or if the pilot set it to AP as soon as possible after liftoff and succumbed very quickly and the plane was uncommanded for the majority of the flight
Ya..I was thinking gee it must be a permanent temporary ra.
When were the F-16's first scrambled?
@@seldoon_nemar think you are correct. If you have not been trained to recognize anoxia it can get you quickly, before you know it.
Hey Juan, B6 320 guy here. Was operating JFK-MCO during the beginning of the event. The first time I recall hearing “1VG” calls on guard was around the time we were over SC at around 1730-1745z. Which seems pretty early into the flight. We all know guard isn’t kept very loud so it is possible they were calling before. Also at the same time, possibly related, ATL center was complaining about a stuck mic on one of their freqs. I can’t say with 100% certainty that it was 1VG though, it’s one of those things you don’t pay much attention to. The calls continued up until we were just offshore of JAX where either we were out of range or NYC center took over the calls. Didn’t think anything of it all at until at dinner when the first reports came out.
That’s great insight. Will be interesting to see when his last transmission was. I fly into and out of 0A9 regularly. ZATL always keeps you super high coming in due to CLT. Coming out I’m sure he just picked up his clearance with TRI APP climbing out as we often do. I’d assume he made the switch back to ZATL to check in and get the climb clearance to FL340 but past that only time will tell. Sad story all the way around.
When I fly high I have a O2 sensor that tells me when my O2 gets low. Seems like a simple safety thing to have even if you are pressurized. It also monitors my heart rate.
What has happened in the past is that people try to solve the problem first, instead of going for the mask first. I am sure there are other things that could have made it difficult to get to the oxygen masks in time.
What's the name of the O2 sensor that you are using please? Soo many in the market its hard to know which is a great one for flight
@@cageordie one thing that any firefighter can tell you, it takes frequent almost constant training to maintain sufficient familiarity with donning a mask in an emergency with other things going on around you. For pilots it’s a piece of “hopefully never used” emergency gear. And while they are trained on it, it’s really not enough. Military can tell you the same thing regarding NBC gear. If you need to figure out what you’re doing during the emergency, find the mask, figure out the straps, find the hose, check connections, and turn it on. Chances are it’s already too late. You need to be able to reach for it and put it on with the same learned instinct as you put on your shoes. It must be in the place you know it to be, right where your hand expects it. The straps must be open to full extension, prepped for you to put it on and pull them. You need to have your instincts honed so that as soon as a cabin pressure alarm goes off you instinctively reach down grab it and put it on in one fluid motion without thinking. Every time.
O2 masks are a checklist item on jets. They’re in a holder of its own and the straps inflate and tighten as soon as it’s put on.
@@pmukanzi Aithre It’s a little techie, but now that I understand what it is doing I’m getting more comfortable with it. I’m not pressurized, and I check my O2 with an alternate meter as well because I’m paranoid and frequently fly alone. I have thought about turning on the VNAV and always have an automatic out, but I would probably overspeed if I was asleep. I want to feel comfortable up to 15-16k feet, but I’m not there yet. 14k max for now.
I knew the pilot. He was a retired major airline pilot that retired in 2018. RIP
Sorry to ask, and if it comes across as insensitive I apologise. Why would a retired airline pilot (70 yrs old?) still be working. Simply the love of flying, or is this type of gig very lucrative?
@@cnst2657 Could be both, love of flying most likely. Rule used to be age 60 mandatory retirement for airline so a few went to corporate/charter where there was no rule which has since been changed to a higher age.
@@cnst2657good question, this is so tragic, a whole family gone.
@@cnst2657 If it was his daughter and granddaughter who died with him in the crash, it's more likely a personal flight, not a working flight. He's flying them somewhere the same way you'd drive your family somewhere.
@@5695q It has been 65 for about 20 years now.
So many accidents in Citations in recent years have been pilot incapacitation, not a majority mind you - but enough to take note. Cessna prided itself on certifying this type under Part 23 and offering waivers for single pilot authorizations. I think this should be re-evaluated. As someone that flies his family in a light jet (don't judge, the cost per NM isn't bad and they were airplane cheap to buy back in 2019 and 2020), I'd offer the following advice:
1. Invest in Eros quick-donning masks. The CE-500 series generally had the horse collar masks stock, those might as well be nothing in many cases. The STC for the Eros install is a little on the pricey side but one of the first mods (along with replacing NiCads with Lead-Acid batteries) I always get.
2. Include the pressurization panel in your scan. Saved my bacon once when we had a slow leak at altitude when we flipped the engine anti-ice on, caught the problem with an 8200 foot cabin altitude. I hate rewinding the rubber jungle,.
3. ALWAYS have a qualified copilot, they don't have to have much time but they should be simulator trained, LOFT and SimCon aren't expensive all things considered. Your insurance policy will be cheaper, the SIC will be happy logging the flight time in a jet, and you'll have someone to fly if you keel over or even if you get a really nasty bout of food poisoning from that airport diner you just ate at. Just make sure you keep a good relationship with that SIC so they feel good speaking out. They also are handy for being your designated driver if you had a bit too much fun on an overnight.
4. If you're feeling off your game, don't fly. Stay an extra night at your departure airport, cancel the trip if you're at home. Your body will usually let you know whether or not you should fly. If you absolutely positively must go, go alone with just the crew.
5. DOn't eff around with pressurization problems at altitude. Get that O2 on and clear that headache (Oxygen service is between $200 and $300 usually, splurge on it since you're a big wig in a jet), get down to 10,000 feet - whether you need to do it in an emergency descent or a requested descent for a slow leak. I see way too many pilots screwing around with problems as the plane keeps on climbing, I never understand why they'd do that - you don't keep driving if you see a wall ahead, 10,000 feet is your wall if you are having pressurization problems.
As these older light jets become more affordable (an early CE-550 can run as low as $375,000 - pretty much the same purchase price as many piston twins), people are getting into the jet set life without much knowledge or experience. Even old dogs coming off the airlines will often overlook these simple items that will inevitably make their life better (or longer). I don't do well when I go to Vegas so I figure I'd rather not bet my family on all the parts (both in my body and on the plane) holding up for a jaunt to Boise or Santa Fe. The light jet I'm usually in is Part 25 certified, it makes a difference - I wish more new light jets held that Part 25 standard but it seems it's all about the savings these days.
Fly hard, fly safe, and reserve all your risk-taking for picking up ladies (or boys for all you aviatrixes) at the bar.
As an owner, how would you feel about donning a cannula above 18000 and a demand mask above FL250 during normal operations. It seems like a slow depressurisation can catch you out even if you have a quick don mask.
@@gasdive A good suggestion, for single pilot operation, might make all the difference.
I have over 6500 hours in Citation aircraft and the company I worked for had all our pilots go through the altitude training course with slow and explosive decompressions. Very worthwhile. Experienced hypoxia flying over the mountains at night, I knew what was happening and got down to as low an altitude as possible. Eye opening. I also think that single pilot operations in jet aircraft is a bad idea. Personal opinion only.
The problem with buying these old jets?
Finding parts. As we are seeing more and more on our core parts we are turning in, these old jets are rapidly becoming "Beyond Economic Repair"
Cessna does better than most, but even Citation Vs are getting problematic. Don't believe me? Check the price for an overhauled cabin pressure controller for an early Citation V.
And don't get me started about "As removed" parts. Had a guy who didn't want to pay $12k (exchange) for an Autopilot control paned.
He decided instead to order "as removed" units. Went thru six of them, all broke in one way or another. Finally bought the "EX"......then bitched about the labor to R&R and F/T numbers 1-6
Sometimes I wonder why I don't retire, and find a job doing something more respectable. Like bull semen extraction.
The aircraft is certified under FAA Part 25 Flight rules. The early 500 series were Part 23 aircraft.
This man was a family friend, my friend, rest in peace brother
He was a good pilot, this one hits home hard
I look forward to the updates
Thanks for all you do
Finally some coverage about this that talks about what happened to the actual victims, not just the poor DC area residents who were startled by a sonic boom.
when I was a kid living near McChord AFB is Washington, we had sonic booms all the time because a fighter squadron trained there. We were used to the noise.
@@adotintheshark4848I grew up on NAS PAX river and sonic booms were a regular thing back in the 1960s
Lewis-McCord joint base ... mmmmm great times dealing with traffic thru there. Never worried about Sonic Booms tho
@@JeffreyBue_imtxsmoke we get enough booms from Dahlgren that i wouldn't think anything was out of the ordinary
I wonder why attempts to intercept the aircraft when the turn to the southwest was made? Fighters should have been launched well before the aircraft got to the DC metro area. Lastly, all single pilot cabin class pressurized aircraft ought to have a VERY LOUD aural warning in the cockpit if the cabin pressure exceeds FL100. That warning can be silenced. A second, louder, different, more destinctive tone should alert at FL125 and NOT BE EXTINGUISHABLE in any way, shape, or form! Why can't an ATC return of 7200 be displayed to ATC that indicates a potential problem that maybe can be acted upon! For example: Citation 1GV, if you hear this transmission go to 100% Oxygen and repeat until acknowledged! This gives ATC a proactive roll maybe in preventing a tragedy!
This was a tragic event, and hindsight may never be 20/20!
Dang. I’m sorry for the families and also for the F16 pilots. I’m sure the pilots wished that they could have done something to help.
thats one of those loaded comments... like dubious YES/NO questions on application forms : "Do you like vacations ... ...or.... cocaine? Yes or No?"
The only saving grace is that they all were gone before the plane spiraled in for the crash.
@@dirtdigger949 it does make me wonder if they’d ever start mandating some kind of telemetry via ADS-B. Like cabin pressure alarm or something that automatically gets sent out. I also think it’ll eventually come to a situation where many autopilot systems will have an emergency auto-land.
@@dirtdigger949 Assuming it was depressurization, yes. Let's hope that's what it was.
@@toastrecon they were shot down
Having been a career AF flyer, I can tell you hypoxia is scarier that being shot at by bad guys. A slow decompression is so insidious there is no way to know it's happening and you simply pass out. Altitude chamber training (required every 18 months for me) gives us the confidence to be able to recognize our own individual hypoxia symptoms, but even when one is vigilant it can be missed. Private and commercial pilots are not required to undergo chamber training, unfortunately. Mojo to the families and loved ones of those who were lost.
There's no way to install sensors someway, somehow? Oxygen content meter? So tragic.
I can’t believe with all the sophisticated avionics that there wouldn’t be some kind of sensor that could detect a rapid change in cabin pressure or a slow changing automatically said the altitude is at 10,000 feet and automatically set a rapid rate of descent like 2000 feet a minute or something. This way if everyone is rendered unconscious the planes are gonna come down to a breathable altitude and hopefully everyone wake up before we crash. I know that can be done technologically I can’t believe someone has done that. I would love to know your thoughts as an ex fighter pilot on why they may not have been done.
Exactly. The souls on that plane never knew what happened to them.
02 sensor with alarm settings. There.. . there ain't gott be no insidiousness not never no more!!! Q.E.D.!
@alantoon5708 I certainly hope they did not. My condolences to the rest of the family 💔🙏
Brings up memories of Payne Stewart. After reading comments, I wonder if the aircraft pressurization system could be modified so when pressure altitude exceeds 12.5K it gives an alarm and deploys masks unless system has been set for a cabin altitude of 8K. If while at cruise altitude the cabin pressure differential changes past a set value without the pressurization control being adjusted the system alarms and deploys the masks. A leak that starts slow and increases would slowly put you to sleep without really knowing what's happening unless trained in an altitude chamber, it may come that to fly a pressurized aircraft you must go through altitude training in the chamber and be certified.
I figured that out pretty quicklly. Dang, there should be gauges AND an audible alert.
Immediately when they said the plane was unresponsive.
I can't believe you said that. I immediately thought that too, before Juan said it. WOW! ♥️What a tragic ending. I always think about the last moments of those onboard. 🙏🕊️
Jeez. I only hope it was rapid decompression for the passengers sake. If it was pilot incapacitation due to medical, the last couple minutes would have been pure terror for the passengers.
@@libbyvalley Wouldn't they all be unconscious if cabin pressure was lost?
My USAF altitude chamber experience was the first training I did that if I screwed up, I die.
What I took away is that my fingers got "tingly" at low pressure (25k feet?).
40 years later, after about 3-5 minutes of hard running, I notice the same tingling. I think that's my anaerobic threshold!
Sounds exactly like the plane crash on Sep. 4th 2022 over the baltic sea. Also a private single pilot flight with a Citation 551. Pilot was reporting problems with the pressurization system in spanish airspace. Flight continued to Germany without further contact and was intercepted by F16. Autopilot flew the plane in heading mode after reaching the planned destination and after fuel was empty, the plane spiraled into the sea.
They make O2 sats that wrap around a finger so the pilot can check in his scan. Too many pressurization failures are happening. It is a threat to people on the ground in densely populated areas.
You’d think this pilot would report something too. Given that the pilot is older I think it’s more probable that it was a medical issue.
@@wormhole331 I would figure though that one of the passengers would eventually notice when they reached their destination and the plane turned around.
Sad...any issue with pressure should result in immediate emergency dive.
@@littleferrhis If there are pressurization issues, then it would be likely for everyone to suffer hypoxia. Pressurization systems maintain pressure and the correct amount of oxygen for occupants to be comfortable and breathe normally. Any failures in the system, and both of those environmental factors are affected. If the pilots suffer hypoxia, then the passengers would also be suffering from hypoxia. Left ignored, hypoxia eventually kills you. The trouble with hypoxia is that your brain functions slow down and you don't make decisions quickly like you normally would. SmarterEveryDay youtube channel has a fascinating video on hypoxia and how lethal it can be.
Every time there's an aviation incident I have to sit on the edge of my seat waiting for the straight dope from Juan. Bravo Zulu stud.
First thing I did was come here last night but I was too soon.
Yup, here for the dope.
I always think " there`s no way I am ever getting in an airplane."
Yep, my man here always gives the straight gouge. He's become my go-to guy.
@@keithnorris6348 But you'll drive, where 35000 people are killed every year in car crashes. You are statistically MUCH more likely to die in your car than in a plane crash.
The reason for the return to the origin is simple. A best practice with certain Nav systems (430/530) would dictate that the origin airport is plugged into the end of the flight plan. When this is done, it there is an emergency on departure the pilot can very quickly scroll to the end of the flight plan and touch the direct to button and the autopilot will return him to the origin airport and execute an approach procedure. It is a major decrease in workload if a problem manifests itself on departure.
This is possible, but there's also another simple explanation. According to FlightAware, the last waypoint in the flight plan was Calverton VOR (CCC), which make sense since this is the initial approach fix (IAF) for the ILS RWY 24 approach to Long Island (KISP). In this case, the last two waypoints in the FMS would have been CCC and KISP, with the pilot intending to activate the approach to KISP when ATC cleared him for the approach. Since this never happened, the aircraft intercepted the track from CCC to KISP, which has bearing 253 degrees. On reaching KISP, in the absence of any further waypoints, it reverted to heading mode, and continue to fly heading 253, which passes directly over Montebello, where the aircraft crashed (the track from KISP to the Montebello VOR is exactly 253 degrees). RIP to those on board.
@@andrewroos6035 What were the winds aloft that day at FL340? What are the chances that there was no crosswind component that would cause a 253 heading to produce a more easterly or westerly flight track? Slim IMHO, but worth looking into.
Brilliant. I wondered if perhaps Elisabethton was entered as an alternate airport in the box and it sequenced automatically? Good thinking, though.
But why didn’t the aircraft fly to Calverton like it’s route was? It was NORDO for quite awhile, no reason the approach or a heading to join would of been active that far out. It should of flown the route to Calverton and then joined the final to KISP….. before reverting to heading mode when passing the field.
@@andrewroos6035 Mostly plausible; but Flightaware shows a course of 239 in the flight log, not 253, from KISP onwards; and Skyvector shows a course of 240 from KISP to MOL (Montebello). Could you be mistaking true for magnetic? The variation there is +13, which would convert 239 magnetic to 252 true, almost exactly the track you stated. Or you're perhaps using some flight planning software that calculates a *heading* of 253, due to wind correction angle at the time you made this calculation? I guess the question is how you came up with 253, when two other sources say 239 or 240. Or am I seeing it wrong?
Thank you for talking about the Cessna and the four souls on board. Everyone else just keeps talking about the sonic boom like that's the important thing, not the people...
Juan, yes the Viper with two external bags holds 12,200ish pounds of fuel. One limitation is that max time in AB is limited in certain envelopes of flight or you can deplete the internal reservoirs faster than external gas can transfer. Great job explaining things as always. Your explanation of intercept procedures is spot on.
Awesome info! I never considered the fuel transfer rate from the ext. tanks would be lower than the AB consumed at lower altitudes.
Makes a lot of sense, from an engineering perspective. Because if you want maximum thrust for extended periods you would
probably want to go fast. So punch the tanks.
Max fuel transfer rate for the F-16 370s is 30,000 lb/hr total. Oddly enough, the centerline 300 bag can alsovtransfer 30,000 by itself. However, you cannot simultaneously transfer from the wing bags and the centerline.
@Phillip Banes This is public information by now. Some F-16s have been sold on the commercial market as they reach end-of-life.
@Phillip Banes Get off it, man. You are out of your depth on this. The Dash 1 manual for every version of the F-16 from the earliest Block 5 A model to the very latest Block 50/52 Plus and Block 60 and Block 70 are non-classified. This does not mean it's easy to get your hands on one, but there are no secrets in them. But, just to annoy you further, here's a few more performance stats just for fun: the F-16 can super-cruise (supersonic speed without afterburner) at 1.1 to 1.2 Mach above about 12,000 feet AGL when in clean configuration (2 or 4 air to air missiles, with or without centerline drop tank, empty pylons on 3 and 7, no wing drop tanks). The G limit with full wing drop tanks is 5.5, half full drop tanks it increases to 6.5, and empty but retained it is 7.5 and CAT 1 pitch and roll gains are available. The reason for the 7.5 G limit with retained empty wing drop tanks is due to adverse turbulence created by the wing tanks at the Angles of Attack required to generate more than 7.5 G. The centerline tank has no G limit empty or full.
@Phillip Banes because it’s funny.
Saw this on the news and knew that you would have a report on this tragedy. So sorry for the for the family aboard that flight. Your reporting on these cases is phenomenal, always enjoy the content. My wife and I did attend the fly-in at the Nevada County Airport this past Saturday. We had a blast and the icing on the cake was to meet you and shake your hand. Great day!
They was shot down
@@GamerBoy58482 hurrr
Yeah I was thinking the same thing, I knew ole Juan would definitely do a video on this one! Alot sooner than I thought!
@@GamerBoy58482 Who said it and where did you get the information?
@@royreynolds108 He joined YT May 28th 2023. Probably all we need to know.
Had a slow depressurization issue on the C-141 and a C-12 not pressurizing properly through 10000’ on climb out.
Presently a 767 Captain, and every climb out, I check good differential pressure climbing through 10k. That’s my personal mitigation strategy to hopefully prevent a scenario like this.
isn't there an alarm in the cockpit to warn of this ?
@@whereisthedollar on the Boeing, yes. However, if the cabin altitude hasn’t yet reached 10000, their would be no warning yet. From experience, I have a rough idea where the differential pressure and cabin altitude should be at 10,20,30000’ etc. If I noticed the Aircraft not pressurizing normally at ten thousand feet, I could stop climb and asses the situation. If noticed later in the climb, with warning alert, we would have to don oxygen masks and descend to 10000 or below, mindful of terrain. Just staying ahead of the Aircraft!
Your "personal" checklist SHOULD be "procedural requirement." I have been on several airliners that "were not keeping up." Gets really uncomfortable in the back when you recognize folks going to sleep around you so you pull out your own barometer and see why.
@@omstout It may not have been by accident.
@@georgewchilds (dirty tricks to get the kids to be quiet for the sky waitress?)
My heart breaks for the Rumpel and Azarian families as well as for the nanny and pilot's families. May they rest in peace.
This one hit close to home from halfway around the world. Despite being Australian, I went to boarding school in Staunton and have great affection for the area. Thanks for covering this in your usual detailed and informative manner.
My condolences go out to all those mourning the victims 😢
I hear you. I lived on the Wintergreen Resort for 7 years. My house was at 4000 feet and based on the pics I could see the crash site from my terrace - looks like only 1 mile air-wise from the house. I immediately recognized the bend in the road the emergency vehicles were parked on. Condolences to the families.
I grew up in Staunton and live in Waynesboro. This was big news around here. Juan did his usual good job on reporting this tragic incident. 👍🏼
It is pronounced "Stanton" Juan, but you would need local knowledge for,that😊
@@MrMacfive1 Nobody cares how it's pronounced.
@@MrMacfive1 I kept thinking that too 👍
I sincerely hope everyone that follows your channel realizes how fortunate it is to have you explaining all the possibilities of what ended the lives of this family. You are a blessing to all who follow you. ❤
He explained nothing it was shot down we all know it did
@GamerBoy58 Two words--- Increase Medication
@@duanequam7709 a word for stop drinking the Kool aid
Insidious is the same word I've used when referring to oxygen deprivation. It really fits the effects.
probably affected everyone on board. That's why nothing was heard from the plane.
It also sounds like carbon monoxide poisoning. The first thing that goes is your ability to know it is happening.
Maintenance records and mechanic/tech interviews for the 33 year old jet might shed some light on this tragedy. Thank you for putting this together for us.
And the Lear that Payne Stewart was in was a "senior" aircraft...
@@GarrishChristopherRobin777 And they have a fleet of mechanics servicing them. How many GA aircraft have that???
33 years ages rubber for any component of the craft.
This Plane had already had several maintenance issues for leaks in the cockpit. They were not apparently fixed.
@@larrybe2900 and all sorts of other things go wrong as well.
Did camber training at El Toro . Long wait to get scheduled as a civilian. Went on the list with 20 hrs and got in after getting my IFR rating. Was flying a turbo 206 with on board O2 and after camber I alway put on the O2 equipment with ready to use when flying over 10k. You are so right I could not believe no one in our class new what was happening. The operator ended up putting all are masks on. Most eye opening training I have done.
Camber = Chamber?
What year(s) were you at El. Toro? Were you training at the club there? I did some training there in 1986.
-What a great review. Our family has watched Juan for several years now but this one hits close to home...literally....my teenaged daughter is a flight student at W13 which is about 12 miles north of the Montebello VOR. We live in Staunton (pronounced "Stanton" without the "u").
OA9 is at Elizabethton (eliz-uh-BETH-tun). You got very close at your first attempt to say it. I live in Elizabethton, and have had an office at Elizabethton Municipal Airport. We are all shaken by this loss. Thanks, Juan, for your coverage. Your educated guess was the same as mine. The 180º turn was likely the autopilot programmed for return to OA9.
That’s where the Dale Earnhardt crash happened.
I live in roan mtn and been waiting for this video, terrible for the families involved.
@@speedlever
Yup, I know. I was there that afternoon. It was bad...just glad everyone got out before the fire got started good.
Just a brief web search this morning showed a history of decompression incidents with this model in particular.
Interesting...reminds me of the Olde DC-10 cargo door incidents.
Scary. And most likely the scenario. Otherwise a passenger would have tried to get on the radio, or at least interfered with the yoke a bit while they were tending to the incapacitated pilot. RIP
SmarterEveryDay does a great video showing the effects of Hypoxia. Worth the 10 minute watch
It is here: ua-cam.com/video/kUfF2MTnqAw/v-deo.html
Yep, that's exactly where I went too!
ua-cam.com/video/kUfF2MTnqAw/v-deo.html
Just about everything he does is worth the watch. Fantastic channel
That's an excellent video.
Very good reporting and explanations Juan. Thank you. As an aircraft maintenance technician of 40 years I have worked on many citations. It will be interesting to hear if anything can be determined as to the cause of this tragedy. Your explanations are spot on and factual. Thank you for what you do and the integrity you demonstrate
Assuming it was an airplane pressurization problem,, not a "Old guy having a sudden medical emergency problem" My 65 year old brother had a stroke a few months back. Said he went from noticing some numbness in his hand, to total paralysis on his right side in about 2-3 minutes.
He was exceptionally fortunate. EMTs showed up in under five minutes, diagnosed a stroke while loading him, started him on the stroke drugs while on the way to the hospital, in the emergency room in about 12 minutes. No speech problems or face paralysis, currently making excellent progress in rehab.
But I digress.....
My first question would be......when was the last time the primary and secondary door seal were changed? How about the cabin leak rate? Should have been done on the last Phase 5.
@@bizjetfixr8352 from some friends at Andrews, the interceptor pilot reported frosted windows, which is why he reported that he was unable to see the pilot.
One nice thing about serving so many years is, you get to know people pretty much everywhere.
Kingairs have 2 altitude sensors inside the pressure vessel. One for the cabin and one for crew. They go off at 12.500 feet Trips the masks and master warning. I sure Cessna has something similar.
Juan, thanks for your clear concise reporting of this tragic incident. Can always count on you to do so.
This isn't a report of the incident. It's mostly speculation. But, it's on the Internet, so it must be true.
BS total crap, nothing here! Simply regurgitating what has been reported in both print and broadcast media. This guy sux... scumbag. His speculation , nothing else. Like an ambulance chasing lawyer, but aviation lawyers are even worse. (One need only look at what happened to GA manufacturing all due to lawyers...)
FWIW, the Payne Stewart crash was a LearJet but otherwise sounds haunting similar. One thing that came out of the LearJet crash is that the emergency checklist for loss of cabin pressure did not actually tell the pilots to put on their oxygen masks. It was just assumed that the pilots would automatically don their masks before doing anything else.
The Helios Air 737 crash too..Everyone went hypoxia and eventually the plane crashed after running out of fuel.
@@adotintheshark4848 The Helios crash was even more tragic. They took off with the cabin pressurization set to "Manual" so the cabin never pressurized. The cabin pressure alarm did sound as they climbed out, but the flight crew thought they were getting a takeoff configuration alarm instead. Turns out that in the 737 both conditions use the same audible sound - you're supposed to know that on the ground it means takeoff configuration and in the air it's cabin pressure. Since they started at a fairly low altitude the crew had several minutes of consciousness to figure it out, but never did. One of the last things the crew did was to contact the airline's maintenance department on the ground, and the first thing the mechanic sent was "have you checked the cabin pressure?" But by then the crew was unconscious.
His wife on board would have noticed the pilot was down over controls. She would use the radio asking for help. I am leaning toward loss of pressure. At that altitude they would have all gone to sleep.
I used to fly a C560 roughly 30 serial numbers away from this one. I once had to do an emergency descent for pressurization. I won't go into the details but my incident triggered a SB for the aircraft. Also, once that second engine was lost, all electrical power was too. Therefore the autopilot disengages. So it didn't hold altitude until it stalled. Looking at the ADSB data, it started a right descending turn immediately at speed. Maybe the pilot was slumped over on the right side of the yoke. Just guessing there. I feel bad for the loss of their family!
Once again good analysis Juan. Your description of how much fuel the F-16 burns in full AB brought back memories of the F-4. I also liked your description of hypoxia for all not familiar with it. We had some F-4 pilots where I was stationed that were real endurance athletes and would bring the aircraft back with the same level of LOX that it went out with. Most were hard core runners or triathlon competitors. FLY NAVY!!!
It's worth shouting out that Destin over at _Smarter Every Day_ actually went into the altitude simulator and (while monitored and assisted) went below/past the operational limits of a human. Hearing him laugh out *"I don't want to die... **_HA_** "* is chilling to your core. He's conscious, and *actively being told, **_"put your mask or you will die"_* and he just... Can't. The spotter had to step in and put his mask on for him.
Filmed at the NASA Johnson Space Center. Very good video!
Which is why the autopilot should descend if there is no input from the pilot for a period of time.
That video is here: ua-cam.com/video/kUfF2MTnqAw/v-deo.html
@@gasdive The $40k Tesla does it. It would not be too much to ask to implement a few safety features.
Should be a system to monitor cabin oxygen levels or even pilot oxygen levels. I guess the thought is it doesn’t kill enough people per year to make it *worth it*
@@gasdivemany locomotives have driver presence detection for just this reason. lol maybe a little puzzle on the FMC that someone can't do while hypoxic.
I imagine what the plane did without any assumptions about what caused the crash, is from a typical programming of the FMS. The last sequence in the box was maybe CCC to KISP THEN a “route discontinuity “. The pilot waits or guesses the approach to input but you don’t link it all together because you don’t know for sure until you get there. So, the plane makes the turn to KISP in NAV MODE which happened to be aligned with a runway then reaches KISP the final waypoint and the FMS goes into “reversion” and “track mode” that’s why the flight track from the airport is so straight.
We can only hope all were incapacitated well before the end... So sad 😢
They were most likely well and dead long before the crash.
Thank you again for your report, I live about 10 miles from AAFB and yes those were the largest booms I have ever heard in this area. Condolences to the family.
Thank you for putting this content together.
My neck of the woods! I’m out in Saint Mary’s Wilderness hiking all the time. It’s a peaceful and beautiful area. The terrain is steep and isolated from roads. I was out at the base of the neighboring mountain with gathering crews watching the smoke. The crash site is significantly tucked into the ridge. This is the second aircraft to go down in this area- last in 2009 was a PC12.
Excellent commentary, as usual. Thank you.
Hi Juan-- Thank you for the great and rapid reporting!!! I knew you would be on top of it, and always with a great explanation!!
Thank you, Juan. Your timely and comprehensive report was extremely helpful. As a subscriber I was anticipating just this report of yesterday's tragedy.
I was waiting to see your video on this so thank you!
🙏🙏🙏🙏 THANKS JUAN for insight into this tragedy, ALWAYS start looking for your explanation on these happenings. GOD SPEED, BE SAFE !!!! 😍😍😍😍😍
Juan, I believe the airplane was programmed to fly over SIE, the airway to SARDI (there is a Q- and Victor airway), thence CCC, thence KISP. The course to 0A9 from KISP is only *1 degree* different than CCC-KISP. If you follow the ADS-B Exchange data vs. KISP-0A9 you’ll see a slight divergence, and projecting the final leg out would have taken it south of 0A9. I think the airplane smart-turned from SARDI-CCC-KISP, and was flying in NAV on an extended, great circle course from CCC-KISP.
Thank you for ending this sad but informative episode on a very positive note (fundraising success!). FYI: Two advertisements added by YT for my viewing experience.
Blessings to you sir for everything you do for aviation🎉
Juan , it's remarkable how fast and thorough your analysis is, of this event. Awesome.
I was really looking forward to your vid on this crash, you never fail to provide great insight
Cmon bro we all know it was shot down its obvious
@@GamerBoy58482 dude stop. You have zero evidence of this and are simply being provocative.
Thanks again Juan, you have the experience and operational knowledge of various aircraft and are very good at explaining how things work. I am sincerely grateful for your update on this fateful crash, the rumor mill over this incident was bonkers! I would imagine that a great number of people trust your input from a professional perspective. Thank you for all your time and dedication.
Waited for this report, thanks Juan.
I took civilian high altitude training in Oklahoma City FAA chamber and they limit us to 18k. It was a quite remarkable experience. First, you are not short of breath, you just can’t think clearly or do simple math. It gets worse with a few minutes. One breath of oxygen is like a curtain going up on a stage. Instantly. Each person reacted differently. I hate to think what 34k would be like. All of those poor people were dead way before the crash assuming it was a depressurization. I don’t know if the FAA still offers that training. Very valuable.
It's been extremely annoying to see trolls and psychopaths, often one and the same, immediately jump on this story and proclaim the plane was shot down or that some other nefarious things were behind this. If you troll a tragedy you are almost certainly a psychopath. Thankfully, guys like Juan can address the legitimate question like the plane turning around. I hope the FAA/NTSB will release a timeline of ATC communications to narrow down the point in time when incapacitation happened.
Its ridiculous. Ppl are crazy these days and have to turn everything into a conspiracy. The guy just lost his whole family and Ive already seen ppl accusing him of killing his family for an insurance scam. These ppl are gross.
That's what far right wing wackos do .. make up insane conspiracy theories. "alternate facts", like it being shot down by "the Biden Crime Family, cause the owner donates to the NRA..." LOL, what nuts make up such aburd nonsesene??
@@user-mm1nt1it5v I get your point, but there's a clear difference between people speculating based on very low information contained in initial reports (that doesn't add up), and people actually accusing someone of murder. Most people have no understanding of anything related to the topic, and they're just trying to make sense of a suspicious event. It does feel good to call other people 'gross' though.
From what I've seen over the last few years, and what I've personally witnessed in the military, if you're not seriously considering there's more to a story like this... well, ignorance is bliss.
@@jacobcastro1885 I don't think a conspiracy nut like you is offering anything of value and is in fact hurting the situation. People that troll tragedies are the lowest form of human scum there is!
I hope this was a hypoxia situation, thinking of the passengers.
At least everyone just fell asleep and never knew what happened.
Frightening thought if it had been medical and the mother and nanny had to face his condition.
I did my flight training in Elizabethton, Juan. You pronounced it correctly.
As usual, Juan is THE ONE to provide useful information. Thank you! BTW, you're saying it right.
THANKS FOR another great update .
I simulated the flight on X-Plane 12 using a G1000 equipped Phenom 300 bizjet. The FMS was programmed with the filed flight plan, which terminated at Long Island airport (KISP) after a final waypoint at Calverton VOR (CCC), which is the initial approach fix for the ILS RWY 24 approach. In normal operation, the pilot would have activated the approach after receiving clearance from ATC, causing the aircraft to fly an intercept for the ILS localiser. However since this did not happen, the aircraft turned before CCC to intercept the track from CCC to KISP, overflew KISP, and then continued to fly in GPS NAV mode away from KISP along the great circle course that joins CCC and KISP, with an initial course of 251 deg. magnetic (note that the course reported by FlightRadar24 is 239 deg. *true* which is approx 252 magnetic). Because the FMS was in GPS NAV mode, it was compensating for wind, so the aircraft flew the great circle course accurately. This took it to a point 8 nm SSE of Montebello VOR (MOL), which is very close (I think within a mile or two) of the point where N611VG ran out of fuel and began to turn to the right after the autopilot disconnected immediately before crashing. RIP to the pilot and passengers.
Great summary!
Juan, as always an outstanding review and analysis of this tragic event
Thanks for the update
Lots of stories but I waited for you to give a real analysis. Thanks
Heard the boom in Centreville, VA, thought it was thunder.
Outstanding briefing on this incident.I live in Sherando just a few miles from the impact spot and was surprised when the first two F-16s came in low thru the Afton pass of the Blue Ridge.
Yes, it is pronounced ElizaBETHton. The 0A9 airport isn't far from where I live. It is the field where Dale Earnhardt Jr's Citation Latitude suffered a hard landing and subsequent runway excursion. Thanks for explaining the turn into ISP, the possible ILS connection to the autopilot. I was wondering why it did that. Hoping to hear the ATC tapes.
One saving grace here was that all aboard were probably unconscious long before the aircraft ran out of fuel. Thanks Juan as always!
I immediately thought I recognized the flight track as an autopilot programmed for the approach at Long Island, and when it reaches its last instruction it continued straight and level on the last heading. It didn’t look unusual to me at all if you know what you are looking at.
I came to similar conclusions upon looking at the flight track
My thoughts exactly
I don't think the approach was plugged in and was the reason for the turn. The last fix on the flight plan was CCC so it looks like the autopilot flew to CCC, turned to ISP and just kept on that heading once it over flew the airport. If you plot a track from CCC to ISP to MOL near the crash it is all the exact same heading of 253
@@smitty1893 agreed. Just the initial flight plan. A good pilot will have the IF in so it’s obvious what approach you are likely to use in a lost com situation.
@@smitty1893 That seems correct to me, no approach was loaded, just the assigned flight plan. It's an interesting coincidence that the final leg of that plan has almost the exact same course as the leg that would take them back to the originating airport (CCC - KISP is 258° verses CCC - 0A9 is 261°).
Thanks for the update/debrief Juan. Sad stuff, fly safe everyone.
Thank you for yet another excellent video.
It’s a sad loss. The only comfort is if it was a hypoxia then the occupants wouldn’t know what happened. It is scary how quickly hypoxia can effect a person at high altitude. Thanks for the clear reporting on what is a tragic event.
A tragic and terrible loss. Thank you for the report I hope there will not be another disaster taking such a young life and family.
Thanks Juan, always sad at the loss of life, glad no one on the ground was lost. RIP......
Thank you for the breakdown.
I knew I could count on you, Juan, to have a detailed and authoritative review of this crash, which happened about 45 miles south of my home in the Shenandoah Valley. Thank you so much for your usual professional, unbiased analysis of this unfortunate accident.
As always thank you for a concise informative analysis!!!!
Please keep us advised as more information becomes available
Great detailed video!
When I saw this on the news, I immediately and regularly checked your channel for an accurate account of what happened
First of all, my heart goes out to the families who lost their loved ones yesterday. Praying for their comfort. Second, thank you Juan for this in-depth explanation. I've been waiting for this since hearing the sonic boom at home and learning of the scramble then plane crash. My initial thought was they shot it down but as more info comes out and your informative explanation, it seems, as you say, it was due to an incapacitated pilot. Tragic all around. Thank you for all you hard work and time. You make complex topics easy to understand! ❤
Literally, when I first heard about this accident I started monitoring this channel for this video. I don't want any other source but Juan to properly explain the available information.
Sad news. Thank you for the clear, concise, and educational, reporting.
Prayers for all involved. Pilot was retired from WN and a great guy. RIP J
JB, your theory and in depth updates just continue to blow my mind.
Very sad state of affairs. RIP all inlvolved and healing for those associated with these 4 folks.
Thanks for your time and resources.
I'm glad the event went well.
Take care, fly safe and God bless. 🤟🏼🖖🏼
Thank you for this update
Wow extremely thorough. You put a lot of research into this. Thanks.
RIP.
PS - Growing up in Ventura County, CA, we were use to sonic booms originating from the Point Mugu Weapons Test Range or Camarillo AFB activities. Haven’t heard a sonic boom in years.
When I was a kid in SE Ohio sonic booms were fairly common over the area. I have since learned that North American Aviation had an authorized corridor over that part of Ohio that allowed them to do Mach+ text flights (most, if not all, with their A-5/RA-5 Vigilante aircraft). There is a story that a either a fireworks or an explosives manufacturer with a factory in that area contacted North American and persuaded them to alter the corridor because his employees would immediately evacuate the factory every time they heard a sonic boom.
I grew up near the AF base outside El Paso, TX. I think it might've been a SAC base at the time (Cold War era). Sonic booms were just a way of life, no less startling but we knew what they were.
I heard them as a kid growing up in Illinois. It's been decades.
So sad, but excellent reporting Juan.
Guess if nothing else, we can be thankful it came down where it did, so no one on the ground was injured.
My condolences to the families of all those that perished.
Thanks, Juan. Can't wait for the update.
Excellent analysis, Sir.
Incidents with Kingair turbo prop aircraft in Australia narrowed down to Pilot incapacitation caused by a fractured refrigerant line in the air conditioning system dumping Tetrafluoroethane (R134a) refrigerant into the air heating manifold, degrading at temperature into a gas which, when pumped into the cabin caused a slowing of the heart rate and death. to the occupants. The result was similar to this incident, where the aircraft continued to fly on autopilot until the fuel ran out and the plane crashed.
Yup. I assumed 02 was a factor. Very sad. Side note: scrambling F-16's is amazing. I watch C.W. Lemoine channel. He is a Viper pilot. Watching his startups is awesome.
Outstanding video and explanation. Thanks for the great details. 🤙🏾
Thanks for explaining this situation to us non pilots.
Thank you for this video.
As a GenAv pilot, I've been trying to find informational vids like this on this specific incident.
Need to subscribe!
Have you lived under a rock? Juan is the OG.
Single pilot high altitude flying comprises additional accepted risk. There are no guarantees with a 2 pilot crew but having a pilot monitoring keeping a careful watch is a great addition to safety! I fly a 2 crew Latitude on a commercial operation and find the mandatory 2 crew operation vital for safety!
Absolutely agree
Brownie. You sure have up your game throughout the years..Excellent coverage .
Thanks Juan. I have been waiting for your expert analysis of this tragic event in my home state of Virginia. The crash was south of Stuarts Draft near Staunton (pronounced like Stanton.) The local news reports have been poor.
Yep, home of my old school, *Staunton Military Academy,* during it's peak years, prior to it shutting down around 1976, after over 90 proud years.
Breathtaking.