I have owned a PC 12 for 20 years and it has been basically bulletproof. However one of the best pieces of advice I ever received at SimCom was “when in doubt, there is NO doubt”. Immediately on NG rollback cycle the PCL once to confirm rollback and then engage the MOR (it is the only thing left to do before feathering the prop) and fly directly to nearest airport and land. Figure it out on the ground. Having said that I still think this pilot would have been fine if he didn’t drop the gear so soon - the PC 12 drops like a rock with gear down and no power. Thankfully he survived and hopefully he will make a full recovery and be flying again soon. Another off topic tidbit is one time we clipped a bird on rotation with the right AOA gage, bending it upwards to indicate a very high angle of attack. If we were in a Max the pusher would have engaged but thankfully the Pilatus guys engineered the system so that both AOAs must agree before the pusher pushes you down. The stick shaker immediately came on but we just flew a normal pattern (shaking the entire time) and came back and landed and called maintenance.
@@jwb2814 As retired USAF enlisted aircrew (with some PC-12/U-28 time, amongst others), your comment took me back to some "interesting” days with SOCOM. “Figure it out on the ground” was a phrase I heard more than several times. Might have said it a few times myself! Thanks for bringing back some of those memories. Some of the best days of my life, really. Cheers from Virginia!
After some analysis on the flight path, we came the conclusion that a successful off field landing would habe happened. The only way the damage to the nose, the tearing off of the wing, can be explained, is that the stick pusher did indeed push the nose down AFTER flaring and attempting a nose up landing. The recommendation is that 🔥in case of a soft field landing the stick pusher must be turned off, overriding the stick pusher is possible, but only if one is prepared for it, not a time when the attention is outside to watch for ditches. Long experience landing on poorly maintained sand and soft fields in central Cameroon, where the nose gear should be held up for as long as possible, it was common to operate with the CG near the rear limit for exactly that reason. The normal procedure is to do a low level overflight to watch for depressions on the field.
Juan as always great job! Always told my pilots that in the event of an emergency caused by an aircraft component failure, never factor in the idea of trying to "save" the aircraft in your decision making. The aircraft has already failed you and deserves to die - you don't! Besides, if you have to sacrifice the aircraft to protect yourself, you will be rewarded with a new and hopefully better aircraft! Yours continues to be the best aviation channel on UA-cam.
Excellent job doing your research on the PC-12! I flew the PC-12 series 10 for a couple of years. The sim classes at that time were handled by Simcom. Most PC-12's do not use a Garmin flight deck (which is disappointing in my view). During my sim flight training (every 6 to 12 months), we used the Manual Override Lever when the pilot saw an uncommanded decrease in power (Ng). If you were not quick to apply the Manual Override Lever, you could lose the turbine power. Below 50% Ng you can get a compressor stall, then having to do a re-start. In the sim, we would practice multiple engine failures primarily on takeoff... usually at 600-800ft AGL, no time to think, so reactions have to be instinctual. So the procedure was, if the pilot noticed a decreasing Ng, we were taught to immediately use the Manual Override. If that didn't stabilize or increase the power, we would immediately feather the prop, push the nose over to best glide. In the case of a takeoff engine failure, I could turn the plane at nearly a 45 degree bank, keeping the airspeed just above stall and return to the airport. Almost every time it was successful (didn't want to tempt fate in the real plane). The key to extending the PC-12 glide was feathering the prop... it is a huge drag on that aircraft. As you said, in actual flight training we never used the Manual Override as it could cause severe damage to the engine. Keep up the good entertainment and work!
Hi Juan, I'm a huge fan of your page. I was a captain at Boutique Air until late last year when I left for a 121 job. I flew this exact tail number numerous times, most recently about a year ago into Telluride. You did a phenomenal job covering all the info about this crash, just as you always do! If there is any insight I can provide I would be more than happy. Thanks for another great upload!
wow, must have been a maint issue, as far as i know it's one of the safest air frames out there, especially flying in to "to hell you ride" , since it was loss of power I can only surmise the pilot killed the fuel accidentally , or a mechanical or fueling issue..but that remains to be seen, too bad it's just spare parts. I've spoken to a pc12 pilot (one runs commuters to Toronto from here in Niagara very economically ), he has total confidence in the air aircraft . At this point we can only speculate what went wrong, but at least the pilot survived, and the fuselage seems pretty much intact..
@@blancolirio Juan, watching the video back now, I would like to address the comment you made about practicing the use of the MOR. Something unique to Boutique is that all initial and recurrent training is done in the actual airplane. To my knowledge, the company has never sent pilots to a full simulator training course. And just like you said, using the MOR in the actual airplane would never be done.
You can NOT turn off the fuel inadvertently in a PC-12. It requires a very definite, and totally separate set of movements. A small latch must be released, and then a large handle must be raised 90 degrees. This handle is mounted on the aft of the pedestal, and pilots have no reason to ever use it, except in situations like this. It certainly wouldn’t happen in a mindless, automatic fashion. Also, if it had been fuel related, he would have a fuel low press CAWS message, along with a master caution, and would be in no doubt as to what was happening. This gets back to flying the aeroplane and running the emergency checklist.
@@Jordandelara Many PC-12 operators use the MOR in flight during training events. Pilatus has no limitation against this. I'm actually surprised that Boutique Air would not do this during training events if you aren't using the simulator. So your first experience with the MOR lever is during an actual emergency? That's crazy.
As others have stated, he said I have pumps on and ignition on. Having worked on PC12s for a few years, I have operated the MOR lever to do standard maintenance checks. The important thing is to move it slowly because you’re bypassing the FCU. The maintenance check was to keep the PCL at idle and move the MOR slowly to max and make sure the engine temperature, speed, and torque did not exceed the limits. Even though the PT6 is a reliable engine, when they fail it’s usually the compressor/turbine or FCU. In a single engine airplane, engine trouble means land now; in a multi engine airplane, engine trouble means land soon (there are exceptions).
Agree. It was a flight chops video that pointed out that you need to make those types of decisions in advance. Like a takeoff briefing - "If x happens I will do y". So you don't have to consider the options, just do what you mentally practiced.
Yup. Engine problems of ANY sort are not going to improve - borne out by statistics. Just make that assumption from the word go and act accordingly and get yourself down safely ASAP.
Juan, this was a very good presentation. I'm a turboprop pilot myself, but with two engines (PW-127). I agree with your comment about never turning away from the landing spot. As a former glider pilot, I like to practice dead stick landings in the simulator when we have extra time left after the session. If I'm too high, I have several options: Extend the downwind, extend the base leg, make S-turns on final, use flaps and gear as airbrake, etc.
As I listened to this radio exchange yesterday I was thinking he was sounding like he was seriously underestimating the danger he was in. Get it down and get it down now. Electives are not good in an emergency.
The pilot ignored the old saying Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. He put unnecessary Communication first, and gave ATC a lengthy explanation of his problem.
Phil D ..I agree. As an owner/pilot of the PC 12 I find this baffling. I can go into the details of why he shouldn’t have been fooling around with this airplane and a possible faulty FCU, but I think it’s self explanatory to most people here. Sounds to me like he was more worried about what his employer might say, a schedule setback or facilities equipped to do repairs/maintenance on the aircraft. Now, I can promise you his employer is “somewhat” more angry, there isn’t a schedule at all anymore and there isn’t a repair facility in the world that can solve his issue. THREE MILES from a perfectly good runway with a fluctuating NG and he decides to go THIRTY MILES. End of conversation with zero excuses.
His choice of heading back to DFW brought back the old adage one is taught when first flying twin engines a/c. "When you lose one engine, the second will just barely get you to the scene of the crash".... When things start to go back with an engine... take the first alternate and let the mechanic put his tools in a truck.
As the veteran ( I don’t like the word survivor),of a few engine outs in singles. Fly the airplane, Fly the airplane and then Fly the airplane! Nothing is more important than reaching a survivable flat spot.( not necessarily an airport) if you’re lucky enough to still have some power use it to get to that flat spot right frickin now. it may come in handy to get over last minute barriers. If anyone’s curious. Mine were. Lost windscreen, landed on Oklahoma ranch. Lost compression.landed in Kansas wheat field and lost prop blade (engine broke from three mounts) landed in somebodys back yard.FLY THE AIRPLANE.
Mike Maloney Ok Mike, now I am curious lol. “Lost windscreen???” In all of my years of flying that is a new one. And “lost prop blade”? This one isn’t hard to believe, but please do tell. Thanks! Glad you made it through them all.
Mike Maloney: How many hours do you have. Ever wondered how many time Bob Hoover crashed before he became adamant about flying the plane thru the plane crash. That’s is the one thing he used to drill into people’s heads, fly it through the crash!
My best friend bought a C421 with newly overhauled engines. Swore it was the best investment he made until the 3rd month he had it. one of the engines blew, but apparently the mounts came lose and the motor somehow shifted. He said that his 2 business partners were trying to call their wife’s to tell them that were crashing, he was reassuring his customers that he had the best pilot... and his pilot was struggling to keep control long enough to get it on the ground because he could barely control it. Now he only charters turbines, won’t get in a piston
Wow Mike. Not sure if I should call you "Lucky" or "Tough Luck". Have you ever pissed off a "God" of some kind? Either that or you are a really nice guy "cause someone likes you"
Gracias Juan! Great overview/blow-by-blow. When I heard the pilot ask for vector to DFW (30 miles away) after having requested the closest landing strip at Rockledge (sp?), I could tell he had just assured a tragic outcome.
Ng is the gas generator RPM (in percent) in the PT-6 (analogous to N2 in a single shaft engine). The PT-6 is a free air turbine engine and uses concentric shafts. The expanding gases from the gas generator turn a separate turbine that powers the propeller through a gearbox. Primary power setting indication is torque. The PT-6 engines are very reliable and rarely fail. If you have a PT-6 starting to fail like in this case, it should be approached as a land as soon as possible. Easy for me to say but it is unfortunate he talked himself out of landing at Rockwall only 3 miles away. As it turned out he might have completed that landing before the engine completely failed.
Covering the chapter 3.4.4. of the emergency procedures, Juan was surprised about the instruction to "land as soon as practical", and so was I. Apparently, Pilatus judges a partial loss of power as a situation where they leave the impact of the power reduction and the risk calculation up to the pic...either land as soon as practical or escalate to as soon as possible...depending on what? The analytical talent of the pilot in an emergency situation and doing the 100% correct risk assessment? Later, and that part of the checklist wasn't discussed in the video, chapter 3.6.11 covering Engine NG, step 4 clearly states "land as soon as possible"....which, in this case, was the problem and the only right thing to do. Greeting from Switzerland, only 40km from the Pilatus factory :-)
ricm96 has it right. Ng is the (core) gas generator. In a turboprop, Torque is the measure of power output absorbed by the prop. If Ng decreases, the engine can not produce as much torque.
Kelvin Gladwin NG is pertinent during starts. Failure of Ng to accelerate during start is indicative of a hung start. When setting power, the Torque indicator is used. ITT can also be a limiting factor when setting power, but Ng is not referenced when setting power.
Gianni Dameno S1nglengine Except it isn’t. Ng is NOT the primary engine instrument to set or measure power output in a turboprop. Torque is used to set and measure power in a turboprop and is most analogous to N1. Ng is analogous to N2, the core of the engine, the section that is the gas generator.
He said the NG was 85% and thought it was recovering. Some folks think out loud in emergencies, like; Oh Shh. ATC would understand that. Prayers for the pilot.
You beat me to it. I seemed like he was thinking out loud, working the problem, and overworked. It's easy to say he should have done something else from the comfort of my comfy couch. He also may have felt some company pressure, lots of aviation companies are struggling. Land the plane now, wait, it's doing better so go back to the company hanger, oh crap, survive. He did, and the company has one less aircraft to store and maintain. Could have been worse...
docdurdin he needed to concentrate on flying the plane not telling ATC what he’s doing and what’s happening? Why does he need the packs? On aviate navigate and communicate right ? But we can Monday morning this to death prayers for him
He was putting information on record just in case. If you are single pilot and you have a cockpit voice recorder but no one to talk to, a cockpit voice recorder is useless.
"...LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL/POSSIBLE." The day I had an engine fire in a Navajo, I asked for vectors to the closest airport with a 3000 ft runway. It was a successful outcome, but I was strongly criticized by management for not flying an additional 7 miles back to the home (maintenance) airport. That's the short version. Here are some more details: I departed TEB about 10am local on an IFR cargo flight to Detroit. Climbing through 5,000 ft, IMC, we were in contact with NY departure and at that time of day it is like a very busy party line - everybody wants something from ATC. Then my copilot said, "Hey Mike, we've got an engine fire on the right side!" I looked out and sure enough - orange flames coming out of every opening of the nacelle. IDENTIFY (yeah it's that one over there with all the flames), VERIFY (it's still the one burning) SECURE. I did that too, throttle idle, mixture to cutoff, prop to feather, boost pump off, cowl flap closed. I had the copilot tell NY we had an emergency. When he did that, the party line went instantly silent and a different voice came on from ATC, "What is the nature of your emergency and what services do you require?" We answered the question and requested vectors to the closest suitable airport and a descent. "Turn right to heading 010, Morristown will be 12 o'clock and 3 miles. Descend and maintain 1,500; you are cleared to land any runway...." Then he gave us the surface wind MMU altimeter setting and the tower frequency - "contact them if able, but you are cleared to land." The rest was just like all the training flights we all have done, landing safely. I was really impressed with how all the other pilots went radio silent, and the professional handling by New York departure. I could not have asked for better service than what we got that day. Hats Off to NY ATC!!
Friend of mine had something similar happen, in regards to the management complaint. He said to them, "ok, lets go up, I'll shut down the engine and we can try it your way." Guy didn't take him up on the offer or mention it again..in that case it was handling a soon to fail engine. Anybody complaining about landing at nearest location after any in flight fire not the result of being shot at shouldn't be in aviation, in my opinion.
Fuck management, ALL if their concern was with Money and time. I told my wife, I bet the reason he tried for Dallas was he concern about management being pissed the schedule would be messed up. My apologies for language, but to often part 135 pilots have to deal with horrible managers/dispatchers.
Sent my daughter from Pendleton Oregon to Portland Or. on a Boutique Pilatus. I would rate them a 9.9 out of 10 for customer service and the aircraft looked to be impeccably maintained. I as a pilot (and my daughters protector) did a partial exterior preflight as best I could via Ziess 7x40 binoculars from behind a fence at about 150ft. As I said the aircraft was very well maintained and clean. The pilot carried himself very professionally.
Young or inexperienced pilots will often talk their way thru an emergency. My belief is he is thinking out loud, and venting stress. I try not to be too hard on a pilot after their first engine loss. His adrenaline rush was probably massive which hinders the logic function of his brain. This is a physiological limitation and will become manageable with time. The company may need to rethink their training..... Just a thought.
Exactly what I thought. Adrenaline. I remember Al Haynes from United and the Sioux City Crash came to our Commuter company to talk with the pilots about how to handle emergencies and what he learned and he passed that information to us and I never forgot it. He said, "never raise your voice and get excited, talk your way through the emergency, because if you raise your voice the other pilots will ramp up their adrenaline and you will make mistakes, stay calm and live and work together". This is kind of what this channel is like too. So many pilots and thousands of hours of been there, done that. It is refreshing to see the positive comments.
also there is no flight recorder on board so reporting to the tower is a nice way of recording what is happening in real time so if the worst outcome happens there is some record of what was going on from the pilots point of view
The PT-6 is flatlined at 1700 RPM prop speed when flying. Only the prop AoA adjusts the power when flying. So losing NG is a direct loss of propulsion force equivalent to that indicated on the instrument.
I reckon he said "Do you have me in sight, sir?" because he'd lost the airport by turning away. That happened to me in training - altitude is quickly lost in the turn away and the sight picture is much changed.
The pilot was extremely detailed with ATC regarding the problem, but too detailed. I've watched so many Aopa accident case studies where the pilot provides technical jargon that most controllers don't understand unless they are also pilots on the side. ATC just needs to hear the emergency declaration and the requested intentions, (souls/fob). Glad this guy made it.
Great explanation, Juan! Victor had his video up not long after you had first mentioned this incident - I believe it was the same day. Just listening to the audio made it very clear what had happened, but that video at the airport was priceless. This demonstrates exactly how decision making can go south in the heat of battle. Could clearly see every link in the chain form, from that initial decision to try and head to DFW. A great learning moment for everyone, no doubt about it! At the first hint of engine trouble, get that SOB on the ground! Worry about everything else later. THANK YOU, as always! 👍🍻
PPL and long term motorcycle safety instructor. Love reviewing NTSB data as a learning experience. Really like your approach to reporting these. It’s always easy to hangar fly, when the fecal matter is hitting the rotary device it is real tough to stay ahead of the immediate situation.
Lot's of lessons to be learned from this crash. This indecision toward diverting once the problem first appeared is something we have to fight constantly within ourselves. Same way, no need to pass all those infos to ATC (who did a great job, by the way). It is procedural. Even on our heavies we shouldn't wonder around when one of our engines start to play funny. Imagine that on a single engine aircraft... As pilots say back in Brazil, "quem tem duas, tem uma; quem tem uma, não tem nenhuma", or, in a direct translation from portuguese "who has two, got one; who has one, got none". Although I have some experience flying at night and IMC on a single engine myself and feel very comfortable doing it, it of course requires a quick response once things get weird, and I have my share of stories to tell. Great video by VASA and an excellent job by you again. Easy said than done, the engineers saved another pilot. But a lesson to be learned by us all. The PC12 pilot, to who we wish a quick and complete recover, for sure have learned.
I heard enough, once he left a perfectly good airport to try to reach DFW. Never ever leave a suitable emergency airport, in hopes of reaching another.
I know accident reviews are about learning rather than blame, but this was just horrible airmanship. Bad decisions, waffling over RT instead of flying the aircraft, and then the stall is just unforgivable. We train for this. We practise this. A lot. You basically have one job to do with engine out on a single - pitch down for your required airspeed and stick on it. Pitching up thinking it will take you further is the action of someone who has never had any training.
Thanks again from down under. As a retired GA reconational pilot I emensely enjoy your posts you have a way of explaining. I am sure you are an exceptional diligent pilot. Stay safe and a speedy return to your chosen career.
Such a good, detailed analysis based on what can be known so far. I had my engine oil temp redline in unfamiliar airspace and a lot goes through your mind. I asked the controller for vectors to the nearest airport with maintenance facilities. He sent me to a rural airport that had no repair facilities, plus the runway had workers on the last 1/3rd of the runway. Very challenging, but I was able to land and call my mechanic. It will be interesting to hear from this pilot as to what happened.
Juan this hits home as I almost died at 21 when in a rental Bonanza my student pilot friend made a couple or 3 bad / delayed decisions, we landed on fumes in a declared emergency. Quick solid decision making skills can make all the difference....!
Hi Juan, thanks for an excellent presentation of the Pilatus PC-12 accident. The combination of ATC tracking, on the ground video, the operators manual, and the company's stick shaker video was well put together and made everything so clear on what can happen and what should happen. Thanks!! - Dean from Minnesota
Well, I've been flying for longer than most pilots live and the mantra I've always heard is: Make a decision and don't change your mind and fly the airplane all the way to the crash. Another one along that line was when Rex Harrison trashed out a beautiful Ryan PT-22 by landing it 50 feet in the air over a perfectly good golf course.
Thanks Juan, great summary as usual and look forward to more info when it’s released! The PT6 is usually a pretty reliable beast unless mistreated- I have about 1800 odd hours on PT6A-42’s (Cheyenne III). Glad you’re teaching your son the right things to do: When I had 2 hours flight time, it was always “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate”. With 28,000+ hours in everything up to and including 747-400’s, it’s STILL “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate”! And WOW 😮 , that PC12 stall, don’t think I ever flew anything with a stall as nasty as that!
As I pushed back from the gate in my E140, I started both engines, had a short taxi and I said the only traffic was a little airplane, the PC-12. We taxied right behind N477SS to R35L from DFW, and it all looked fine to us. I was ENY 4151. Crazy to think that I was one of the last people to see that plane intact.
Exceptionally good video Juan! Quite an eye-opener. I wouldn't hesitate to fly in a Pilatus. As you indicated, it is a safe and popular aircraft. I've seen videos of them operating in the mountains in Asia, short field approaches in the Caribbean etc which they walk. I wonder, though, whether the T-tail is a factor in that stall behaviour. The low wing shouldn't be a problem, IMHO. Regards!
His mixup of runway numbers is a clear indication that he’s overloaded. Part of the reason he’s overloaded, in my opinion, is that he’s talking way too much to atc. Just declare mayday, focus on the aircraft.
SFMC 98 When you do declare an emergency, it’s just you and the controller on the frequency. No other chatter. At least that is the way it was when I had an engine failure in a MU2 years ago and could not maintain the altitude assigned by ATC. They told me to stand by for lower and that’s when I declared an emergency and told them I was descending.
Well... 85% is the speed N1 defaults to with an input shaft failure. I doubt ATC knew that and it might be coincidental (I don’t know the cause.. but I do know 85% N1 won’t keep a plane flying).
Thank you sir for putting this all together! Thank you sir for putting all your videos together. You have saved lives over the years...you just don't know which ones or how many.
I was certified as an AV8B engine operator. We had to demonstrate “Manual Fuel Operation”. You essentially shut off the fuel control unit then controlled fuel to the engine with a hand throttle. First action turn the igniters on . Then move the manual fuel lever VERY carefully ! This is only performed to verify “Manual Fuel” functionality. Incorrectly done you could severely damage or scrap the engine. “Manual Fuel” was the pilot’s last chance to keep the engine operating. The AV8B is a single engine jet ground attack aircraft.
As always Juan a great dissection of the PC-12 incident. The pilot was definitely overwhelmed and in my opinion was more worried about the airplane and not himself. Engine out... land, land, land.
Hoping your engine holds together for another 30 miles is a gamble I wouldn't be taking. The pilot passed on the airport he was first vectored to. Why not be on the ground and sort the engine malfunction than continue on? The second situation was descending to early. Altitude is insurance in the bank. Then the final error was not flying over the runway and then lowering your gear too soon. Seems odd to be operating such a high performance aircraft and make these three vital errors. Never fly over a good runway when you have engine problems especially single engine .....
The pilot probably made what seemed to be reasonable and low-risk decisions all along the way, but some key errors and bad luck added up not to his benefit. I'm glad he made it out alive; it seems he has Pilatus to thank for that.
Electing to land engine out with a tail wind when, as Juan said, he was perfectly set up for a right downwind to land into the wind was neither reasonable nor low risk.
@@greggpedder yes and no, landing with a tailwind can be done safely, but he was behind the airplane, seemingly not sure if he was landing on 18 or 36. At that point he may not have had the altitude to do a normal downwind for 36 so choosing 18 was a surer bet. However, he got in trouble when he ended up low on energy by turning away from the runway and extending the gear as @blancolirio mentioned. I wonder if the prop was feathered or not?
The PC12 is perfectly flyable using the MOR lever without risking damage to the FCU. Throttle response is much more delayed so a fat fist on the MOR could lead to an over torque/temp situation if you're not monitoring your instruments. The USAF has us fly full patterns on the MOR to get used to the lag with power adjustments, but again, totally flyable.
Excellent Presentation. A few things I can elaborate on as an experienced PC12 Pilot: NG is the compressor section (anagalous to N2 in most jets), it's (mostly) irrelevant for power output until it drops below ~80-85% (flight idle), the primary power instrument is Torque, represented on the top-left of the engine instrument panel picture in your video. This isn't to say NG doesn't show you if you're making power, just that it's secondary to Torque when making power setting adjustments in-flight. When/If NG drops below 80% uncommanded (while in flight idle) you clearly have an engine problem and should engage the MOR (Manual Override) lever, and if it drops below 60% you're now in "sub-idle" and will likely need starter assistance below 50% to keep the engine running (along with MOR lever operation.) I couldn't find it on youtube but at Simcom there is a video showing MOR operation with a test-flight induced FCU failure and the response of the MOR lever at various altitudes. Lower altitude = faster/worse NG rollback. We train with the MOR lever every recurrent in the sim. When used with caution, the MOR lever is safe to operate in flight for training purposes. There's no way to simulate a FCU (fuel control unit) failure in-flight without a test-flight type setup. In the sub-idle condition the MOR lever can absolutely devastate an engine, which is why you always check that it is fully stowed during engine startup. One more note on your video: The pilot said "pumps on" not "props on", referring to the wing tank fuel boost pumps., not the prop heat. Typically we are trained to do this if we have a "fuel pressure" amber warning, likely as a result of a fuel filter clog. I can (and shouldn't) speculate on 4 reasons for the engine trouble: 1) Fuel Control Unit (FCU) failure. The MOR lever should be able to rectify this to get the plane to a safe landing site. 2) Bypass valve failure. The BPV is intended to prevent compressor stall/surge. If it fails open, the compressor section will be bypassing compressed air back to the engine inlet and power may be greatly reduced. 3) High-pressure fuel pump failure. The engine only has one of these and without it there is not enough fuel pressure to feed the engine. 4) Clogged fuel filter. The bypass should engage, but this raises questions as to why it clogged in the first place, and if clogged, what sort of debris/foul material was being sent along via the bypass to the engine/high-pressure fuel pump.
This learning excercise reminded me 1. Not lower the gear (or flaps) until final and 2. to dissipate altitude don't turn away from your landing site. I know this but in a time of crisis it might not be my first thought! Another important thought- how do I compensate for headwind/tailwind. Great learning experience despite the unknowns.
Couple suggestions for pc 12 pilots now that I'm successfully retired from them: I was a pilot doing the data gathering test flights (in the real plane) for making the FS NG sim. We did stalls with a disabled pusher. With no flaps it stalled like a Cherokee and was a non event. With full flaps, a wing dropped very suddenly and quickly. Instead of trying to roll it back, it was actually faster to just help it do a full roll. I am not suggesting it though. Both cases are obviously bad news close to the ground. With enough altitude, not a big deal, but the pc12 would have a lot of roll "inertia" from the sudden snap and would end up rolling to pretty much 90 degree bank before it would stop and reverse the other way. Long story short, don't fight the pusher. I have flown with people that said they would hit the pusher override on a landing stall. Very bad idea unless you're 3 feet off the ground. The MOR lever. I suggest practicing in the plane, it's not as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Yes, it can do damage if you are careless, but it's also not as touchy as some make it out to be. In a real world emergency, even if you overdo it and overtemp, just pull it back some and try again slower. Unless you leave it full blast, the engine won't instantly turn into a puff of smoke like in the sim. Better know what to expect in the real world. For practice, pull the power back to half or so (to keep NG high and safe) and try out the MOR. Feels more responsive and direct with it. Don't get too overly confident in the single engine pt6. The engine out climb is terrible. Be paranoid and have a plan. I've had 2 pt6 issues before. I was always lucky that I was not far from landing. I enjoyed the pc12 but I'm glad to be out of them. Felt like my single engine luck was going to run out sooner or later. Edit - Found some old footage of the no pusher stalls. Some stuff was purposely omitted to not give out bad ideas. ua-cam.com/video/5CXCpIz8_rk/v-deo.html
The Cessna Grand Caravan has the PT6-114 turbine producing 675 shp, roughly half the larger turbine PT6 in the Pilatus PC12. Flight Safety covers the FCU failure due to loss of Py suction to the FCU and subsequent loss of torque. The best indicator of this is the Ng gage which will drop as low as 48%. Federal Express Feeder does not practice in the actual aircraft in flight. Sim only. I know a pilot who tried MOR in a Caravan out of curiosity and destroyed the PT6-114 turbine because of no FCU protection. Maybe the PC12 MOR is less sensitive? Juan correctly covers these issues in the presentation. You have to be well rehearsed mentally to catch a loss of suction and implement the MOR soon enough.
I’ve never tried it in the caravan. Pretty much the same fuel controller isn’t it? It’s been a long time for me since the 208. I could see jabbing it forward though once the safety wire breaks if they’re still like that? Pilot of a pc12 operation I used to work at had a bellows failure and a roll back to idle. This was an early pc12 with the old style bellows. He said it was not much of an issue but he was in cruise with plenty of time to not rush. He was the one that trained me in a pc12 when I first started and had me practice it in the plane. Fast forward to the sim data gathering - we did multiple scenarios with the MOR lever. Sim should be based off that unless they ended up using some other data for it. I never had anything iffy happen while doing it. Just mimic the fuel rate increase of the fcu. Same thing just no protection.
I have am owner/operation of a PC-12 for the past 16 years, on my third one. The pilot announced his NG was rolling back, his first action should have been an immediate turn towards the nearest airport and using the MOR lever procedures. If the MOR lever did not restore power then it would be engine out procedure and he then is pointed at the nearest airport. The pilot made several mistakes and didn't not follow the correct Pilatus emergency procedures. The host incorrectly identifies Flight Safety whereas Simcom is the factory training facility for the PC-12.
Always easy to shuttle in a few MM to for repairs. We don't care what airport you send us to, just let's have an aircraft in one piece to work on!!! Have tools will travel!!!
Are you serious? With 5,000' altitude, he should have shut her down, feathered the prop and set up on a straight-in approach, dirty her up and execute a dead stick 8-point roll. If Bob Hoover could do it, so could anybody crazy enough, with a malfunctioning engine, to fly away from a first suitable landing field.
The PT-6 FCU is an old, totally mechanical unit. As a pilot we control the FCU governor (a speeder spring and few fly weights, same as a prop gov). We simply set the desired NG (compressor rpm, this is a free turbine so we also have prop rpm NP). The FCU governor opens (for more rpm-fuel-power) or closes (less rpm-fuel-power) the fuel valve. Once desired rpm-fuel-power is achieved the fuel valve "floats" and maintains proper fuel flow to maintain desired NG (on speed condition). The fuel valve is moved by P3, bleed air from the compressor that is then reduced (Px and Py within the FCU). If you loose air (for whatever reason) the fuel valve goes to a mechanical stop (called min fuel, same as on any carburetor), the engine becomes unresponsive to power lever inputs and the engine will idle. This happens at times when the mechanics forget to connect the P3 line after compressor wash (the line is disconnected so no water gets inside the FCU pneumatic side. The manual control lever allows the pilot to directly move the fuel valve, it is that simple. Only single engine installations typically get this manual control, Cessna Caravan for example. The FCU governor along with the pneumatic side (Px and Py) provides some acceleration/anti compressor stall/ITT protection but especially starting from idle on a PT-6 a gentle hand is required. There is no modern day "full automatic" anything within that FCU. Bunch of springs, bellows and some old fashion mechanical stuff only. Here are some NG numbers for a PT-6 27 (I fly twin otters) 46% this is min fuel stop, FCU governor not working or no Px-Py 50% FCU governed idle, fuel valve in the floating position 85% compressor utilizes both axial and centrifugal design, there is a bleed valve that is open at low rpm, the axial portion pumps too much air at these low rpm, at 85% the centrifugal is ready for all of it 97% sea level, warm day full power 94% typical cruise power at 8000 warm day Last point, power is set by prop torque TQ reading. For me it is 50 psi, based on the air density I get that 50 TQ at different NG values. As stated earlier I control the FCU governor RPM but my power indication is the prop TQ value. So many guys that I fly with (lost of low time co pilots) are not very interested with the NG and only look at the TQ values. This is the same as if you were looking at what the tires are doing in your car while dealing with engine issues. This pilot here did well by reporting NG and not loss of TQ. On the other hand I don't think ATC knows much about NG. This might be way more then anyone wanted to know, but I am stuck home and can't fly so here it is. Thx
I am not a pilot; nevertheless, it seems to me if I have engine trouble and I only have one engine; I am going to want to put myself on the ground as soon as I can.
@@topofthegreen Flown many vintage military trainers early in my flying career; my instructor emphatically said, " if you have the altitude, there is no fucking reason to miss the runway" When you are going down, screw the approach...just land on the runway.
Juan San, great segment as many others have commented here. I didn't have time to read the scores of responses yet, but having just watched your outstanding video and a number of the responses, the following comment flashed into my mind based upon my experience as both a retired Part 121 and a retired military fighter/attack/recce pilot: in any emergency the very first procedural steps are: 1. maintain aircraft control, 2. analyze the situation and take proper action, and 3. land as soon as possible. That encompasses the outstanding, life-saving priorities you have wisely instilled in your son: Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate. Keep up the good work, Brother!
Great analysis! Thanks for this study. The pilot had a responsibility to his employer let alone to himself to put that plane down asap. Engine fails never get better.
Juan, My thought on the pilot announcing his conditions was to get it on the audio for the record. Could be very helpful in figuring out the cause of the crash should something go really wrong and the pilot not make it. Also as soon as he said he wanted to make it to DFW I was concerned about his ADM.
As a hobby I fly radio controlled airplanes where the engines are less reliable. On a busy day there can be half a dozen dead stick landings/crashes. Because they are toys we can calmly walk to the scene of every incident and it's funny how similar our conversations are to Juan's in this video. Was it (the engine) making any power? Good call turning back for the airport when it started running rough. That downwind approach was really all you could do. I got nervous when we saw you got slow and the wing started to drop. Good job dropping the nose and keeping her flying. Landing in the field instead of pushing your luck for the runway was a good call...
One of your best videos yet, Juan! I know some folks don't agree with the idea of dissecting an accident before the NTSB report comes out, but those reports often take forever and by the time they come out, people have often forgotten the accident and moved on. Besides, there are some accidents in which there are lessons that are pretty obvious, pretty quickly. This is such an accident. I am sure that the NTSB will figure out why that PT6 failed, but pilots care more about how the situation should be handled when it happens. Great research, great presentation. Thank you!
Given his altitude at the time, I don't think heading toward Mesquite would have been a worse choice than Rockwall (though _DFW_ was a long way away with engine at idle). The runway at Mesquite is 1800' longer and 30' wider, which gives more choices and reduces the criticality of a precise approach. But it seems obvious to me that the critical error was the 360 to dump altitude rather than babying the attitude and altitude and landing on 36. It looks like he pulled that turn too hard (especially with gear down) and ended up out of energy, altitude, and ideas (as the old saying goes). My suspicion is that when he went from, "I need to get back to base" to "I need to land right now", he shifted from OODA to reactive, seat-of-the-pants flying. It's an easy thing to do in that kind of high-stress, high-workload environment.
If you are high you potentially have a lot of options. S-Turns, Dump Flaps, Slip the aircraft or just land long, its a damn PC-12 its not like it needed the whole runway. Turning a full 360 and loosing sight picture should be a last option. Without judging it looks like a short approach for runway 36 would likely have been advisable.
Don’t know about the PC12 but a similar aircraft, the Daher TBM has manual override. MOR is checked by Maintenance on ground runs every 100hrs. And flight crews use it every time they are in the simulator. I assume he turned away from the airport to lose ‘excess ‘ altitude. I’m thinking with those tremendous flaps and gear , he could fly directly to the runway, drop flaps and gear and point the nose way down and quickly lose any excess altitude with little airspeed gain. Tough call. Easy to make sitting in my recliner.
So many pilots have bought the farm by doing too much turning with not enough energy. If you lose power on takeoff your instinct is to turn around 180 to land on the runway you just departed, but the energy loss for the 180 is more than the energy you have at low altitude. The Space Shuttle, when landing, would cross the field with an energy surplus and would then fly about 270 degrees to line up for landing. They would maintain an energy surplus all the way to final where they'd scrub the excess energy. I think all pilots should learn to land dead-stick and perhaps also practice with gliders to gain the confidence for doing dead-stick landings.
Juan: Great job on the narrative. Could you do a session on explaining the graphics from VAS pertaining to what the symbols mean? When I watch VAS videos I can't determine the airport from other indications. Thank you for what you do sir!
souocara38able , North, is always to the top of the presentation. Smaller airports , are just a line, depicting the orientation of the runway. At larger airports, as you look over at DFW, you see the runways depicted, and the dash lines coming out from them, depicting the final approach course. They are 1nm apart, and can be used to provide a radar surveillance approach.
I watched this happening in real time on Flightradar24. When the icon stopped responding just short of the airport, I had a bad feeling. Seems there was a closer air strip, but I may be getting this flight confused with another emergency. At any rate, glad the pilot survived and hope he recovers well.
Ng or n1 is the same in a pt6a. Its the compressor speed and not power the pt6a is a free turbine. The tq is the power indication. The prop is driven by the power turbine . It is not conected mechanicaly to the compressor section. The pwr lever over ride takes control of the fcu mechanicaly and takes the computing section out of the fcu. Once u use the over ride you need to watch the itt for an over temp. Someone said about compressor stall at 50%. 50% is the engine self substaining lower limit. Below this the engine will come to a stop. It shood be noted that this may not be a fcu failure
I have not flown in 20 years, (Started pilot training in my late teens and ran out of money) But I a very familiar with the area. Both Rockwall and Mesquite are single runway airports in a more or less north/south configuration (I know to this crowd that is plainly obvious). Rockwall is on the East side of lake Ray Hubbard and Mesquite is on the South West side of it. I was quite confused with his decision to try to return to DFW. Even with my limited experience I surmised that not only would the distance would be a factor, but to make that return he is going to cross the flight paths of Addison airport and Dallas/Love Field airports putting himself in a position to have more information to deal with beyond what is occurring with his aircraft. Also his position put him outside of most of the developed areas of Dallas. From his initial position to the North and East you find large areas of farm land. Turning back towards DFW puts you in a position to be over much more densely populated areas. In my thinking, with the wind out of the North, the best option would have been to head North East towards Rockwall and setup for a landing into the wind there. This would get me out from over the lake as soon as possible and not force me to cross it again. (Lake Ray Hubbard is not exactly small) This would also put me in a position to utilize the abundance of farm land in the event the situation deteriorated. Turning towards Mesquite heads back to populated areas and forces another lake crossing and forces me to drop significant altitude over the water to hit the runway from the North. I remain interested in these as at some point I would like to get back into flying and I am posting the comments not to judge the pilot but to get feedback on my own thought process.
I am a baggage handler (so I really know nothing) but I believe that Cape Air which also serves EAS airports only uses two engine planes because their routes take them over water.
Juan on the PT6 the Torque is the primary indication of power. Between the torque and ITT you set the power. The NG or N1 is the gas generator speed and is normally controlled around 96 to a max of 104%.
I worked for boutique air for almost 3yrs and worked on that exact plane. I hope the investigation concludes soon and we know what happened. The pc12 is a great aircraft. Also that was a good pilot.
Non-pilot here. With the "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" concept... After you declare an emergency and are given an airport, can you literally ignore all communication until the plane has landed? Will ATC clear the way for you without further communication?
Very informative video! Hopefully the pilot is ok and can eventually comment as to what indications he was seeing in the cockpit and as to wether he had time (due to low altitude) to access the POH and follow the procedure for engine reduced power in flight!
Rockwall F46 would have been a rough call- runway is only 3373ft. That's pretty short for a PC12 and a stressed-out pilot. Although its been years since I landed there, Rockwall has a road on the approach to 35 with an aptly named Rockwall visible on Google Street view-Trees on the other end. HQZ is 6000 feet could have turned out to be a wise decision with just one or two other variables. A decade ago I had an engine out near FIM VOR... looked closely at Santa Paula but opted for the big runway at KCMA. I made a very similar decision to leave the comfort of a short and difficult runway with an engine out for a distant larger runway with a prop blocking my view. Upon landing found that the engine ate a valve as I ate a great burger at the cafe (uncontrollable teeth chatter made it hard to chew). Bad memories .... I hope the guy recovers quickly.
I had a lot of the same thoughts as most of you. Why did he decide he could go to DFW rather than land immediately? Why did he lower the gear while heading away from the airport? Why did he stall and why with so much altitude? It looked like he might have made the airport (or level ground) if he had kept the aircraft flying. It’s just too early to tell without more information but I’ll be interested in learning about his experience and training.
You have no right to gamble when you only have one engine.. What happened to aviating, navigating and then communicating? Great video showing how human factors can really effect the decision making process
I don't like to blame a pilot's decision but I always tell my fellow pilots: Land ASAP and try to troubleshoot when you're safely on the ground, especially flying single engine and a single pilot. Don't gamble. We only live once. I'd like to know as well the age and maintenance status of this PC12. I was planning to purchase a PC 12 this year but I'll definitely switch to a King air or another reliable twin-engine or the PC 24.
Mike Crake - if you do only one thing right, it should be AIRSPEED (per procedure). Don’t loose control by getting too slow. Getting to the nearest airport is navigate; that’s second in priority.
Juan, I just love your videos. As a teenager, I trained as a glider pilot but have not flown a glider in excess of forty years. Life got in the way LOL. You not only report on situations but give explanations that mean that the ignorant learn about aviation. So many armchair aviators with so many answers. Thanks for the facts. As Joe Friday of Dragnet would say, "just the facts Mam". Thanks for your excellent reporting and for making sense of the chaff.
The Open Cirrus glider had a similar stall. You had to pull and hold the nose up to provoke a stall but when it stalled it went almost straight down. Similar height loss as well.
Outstanding video Juan, very informative. I've heard that the PC 12 doesn't handle stalls very well. You have to be on top of your game to successfully come out of one with that airplane. That stall/recovery video was really an eye opener, in showing how violent the stall characteristics are in a Pilotus.
Great video. One other thought that occurred to me was that the fuselage seemed to be in great condition for such an impact. Perhaps he got it leveled just enough behind those trees that blocked our video. Maybe they make em stronger in Switzerland.
Awesome job Mr. Browne. Very informative with plenty of sources. I believe with an expensive bird like that it woulda made money sense to have a copilot. A capt in training sitting right next to this guy. He was probably dealing with the startle effect all the way to the ground. Glad he survived and look fwd to more info and the NTSB report. Thanks again. 👍👍✈️✈️🇺🇸🇺🇸
We do our recurrent in the airplane. We practice use of the MOR lever. Just count to ten while bringing it up. Not as sensitive as you’d think. Also we use Torque and ITT for power settings. Not sure I’ve ever looked at NG other than 13% for start. If fuel flow is 90 pph then use the MOR. Otherwise feather.
A refusal to accept the situation and a failure to stick to the plan. He fought both the airplane and himself into a bad landing he was lucky enough to be dragged away from.
He was 3 miles away from Rockwall when he declared his emergency. Rockwall has a 3300 foot ruway. Mesquite has a 6000 foot tower controlled runway 12 miles SW of Rockwall. I cannot understand his thinking to return to DFW 30 miles away, not only the distance but also having to be vectored around the airspace around Dallas Love Field has to be factored in as well. The NTSB report will be interesting to read on this one.
Ng is the gas generator RPM. The power indicator is the Tq (Torque). For a normal PC12 operation max Tq would be around 42psi with a 97% Ng. At 85% Ng he should have been more than able to climb, especially with no pax on board. The ignitors have a selection of Auto/On, they will also come on automatically if it think there is an engine failure, sorry I can't recall which parameter it measures to come on. The only thing he can choose for the props ice "anti ice". The "Flight Idle" selection at the higher power settings don't really have an effect. It is more to do with microswitches for the pressurisation system when you have the power control at it's lowest setting. The MOR, or Manual Overide fuel lever will usually give about 38 psi Tq, more than enough to get you out of trouble. Part of the engine ground runs post a maintenance check will often involve a check of the MOR. The problem is that for such a short lever, a little movement can give you a gutfull of fuel and as you say, because the Tq and Ng are no longer protected, you can stuff the engine. Why he would descend before he knows he can glide to an airport is beyond me.
Good video/s Juan. You can not please all the viewers all the time... This is not a "turbo assisted" as some comments suggested. This engine the PT6 is a turbine engine. For example a Navajo is a turbo-charged piston engine ( Lycoming TIO540 I think) and the turbo charger ( blows compressed or extra air into the induction system ) may fail and engine continue to run. That has happened to me. The PT6 engine is a turbine engine that drives a prop. The throttle on the PT6 runs through a Fuel Control Unit, and if that unit fails ( in part ) then the Manual Override may be used to bypass elements of the FCU to regain engine throttle control but without temp protections of the fully functioning FCU. Power management of the PT6 is managed by operating the power lever ( throttle ) using Torque as primary operations measure, limited by the Ng ( gas Generator percent 104.1 ) and ITT ( 840 degrees) temperature on the TBM I fly. Starting procedures uses NG as the critical parameter for "adding fuel" i.e. min rotation speed to add the fuel with ignition. e.g. During the start sequence after Ng makes 13%(min) fuel may be added. Engine motoring limits after a false starts all relate to Ng which makes it operationally similar to N2 in a axial turbine during the start sequence.
I have owned a PC 12 for 20 years and it has been basically bulletproof. However one of the best pieces of advice I ever received at SimCom was “when in doubt, there is NO doubt”. Immediately on NG rollback cycle the PCL once to confirm rollback and then engage the MOR (it is the only thing left to do before feathering the prop) and fly directly to nearest airport and land. Figure it out on the ground. Having said that I still think this pilot would have been fine if he didn’t drop the gear so soon - the PC 12 drops like a rock with gear down and no power. Thankfully he survived and hopefully he will make a full recovery and be flying again soon. Another off topic tidbit is one time we clipped a bird on rotation with the right AOA gage, bending it upwards to indicate a very high angle of attack. If we were in a Max the pusher would have engaged but thankfully the Pilatus guys engineered the system so that both AOAs must agree before the pusher pushes you down. The stick shaker immediately came on but we just flew a normal pattern (shaking the entire time) and came back and landed and called maintenance.
Nice comment
Also “figure it out on the ground “
EXACTLY
@@jwb2814 As retired USAF enlisted aircrew (with some PC-12/U-28 time, amongst others), your comment took me back to some "interesting” days with SOCOM. “Figure it out on the ground” was a phrase I heard more than several times. Might have said it a few times myself! Thanks for bringing back some of those memories. Some of the best days of my life, really. Cheers from Virginia!
After some analysis on the flight path, we came the conclusion that a successful off field landing would habe happened.
The only way the damage to the nose, the tearing off of the wing, can be explained, is that the stick pusher did indeed push the nose down AFTER flaring and attempting a nose up landing.
The recommendation is that 🔥in case of a soft field landing the stick pusher must be turned off, overriding the stick pusher is possible, but only if one is prepared for it, not a time when the attention is outside to watch for ditches.
Long experience landing on poorly maintained sand and soft fields in central Cameroon, where the nose gear should be held up for as long as possible, it was common to operate with the CG near the rear limit for exactly that reason. The normal procedure is to do a low level overflight to watch for depressions on the field.
I am always in doubt. For me every flight is doubtfull. It’s more of a balance between risk and continue flying.
Juan as always great job! Always told my pilots that in the event of an emergency caused by an aircraft component failure, never factor in the idea of trying to "save" the aircraft in your decision making. The aircraft has already failed you and deserves to die - you don't! Besides, if you have to sacrifice the aircraft to protect yourself, you will be rewarded with a new and hopefully better aircraft! Yours continues to be the best aviation channel on UA-cam.
Thanks James!
So in your reasoning, this aircraft let the pilot down so it deserves to be smashed up ? This pilot caused the crash , not the plane .
@@Hugh1966”Losing my engine” seems relevant.
Excellent job doing your research on the PC-12! I flew the PC-12 series 10 for a couple of years. The sim classes at that time were handled by Simcom. Most PC-12's do not use a Garmin flight deck (which is disappointing in my view). During my sim flight training (every 6 to 12 months), we used the Manual Override Lever when the pilot saw an uncommanded decrease in power (Ng). If you were not quick to apply the Manual Override Lever, you could lose the turbine power. Below 50% Ng you can get a compressor stall, then having to do a re-start. In the sim, we would practice multiple engine failures primarily on takeoff... usually at 600-800ft AGL, no time to think, so reactions have to be instinctual. So the procedure was, if the pilot noticed a decreasing Ng, we were taught to immediately use the Manual Override. If that didn't stabilize or increase the power, we would immediately feather the prop, push the nose over to best glide. In the case of a takeoff engine failure, I could turn the plane at nearly a 45 degree bank, keeping the airspeed just above stall and return to the airport. Almost every time it was successful (didn't want to tempt fate in the real plane). The key to extending the PC-12 glide was feathering the prop... it is a huge drag on that aircraft. As you said, in actual flight training we never used the Manual Override as it could cause severe damage to the engine. Keep up the good entertainment and work!
Hans Schwarz I’m surprised you didn’t point out that NG in a turboprop is the same as N2 in a two spool turbofan.
Thanks for your prospective input!👍
Your best video YTD Mr B. gathering all the facts and data. I could see you working as an expert in Court Case ligation in the future.
great info Hans
That's in my town and I heard nothing about it
Hi Juan, I'm a huge fan of your page. I was a captain at Boutique Air until late last year when I left for a 121 job. I flew this exact tail number numerous times, most recently about a year ago into Telluride. You did a phenomenal job covering all the info about this crash, just as you always do! If there is any insight I can provide I would be more than happy. Thanks for another great upload!
Thanks Jordan!
wow, must have been a maint issue, as far as i know it's one of the safest air frames out there, especially flying in to "to hell you ride" , since it was loss of power I can only surmise the pilot killed the fuel accidentally , or a mechanical or fueling issue..but that remains to be seen, too bad it's just spare parts. I've spoken to a pc12 pilot (one runs commuters to Toronto from here in Niagara very economically ), he has total confidence in the air aircraft . At this point we can only speculate what went wrong, but at least the pilot survived, and the fuselage seems pretty much intact..
@@blancolirio Juan, watching the video back now, I would like to address the comment you made about practicing the use of the MOR. Something unique to Boutique is that all initial and recurrent training is done in the actual airplane. To my knowledge, the company has never sent pilots to a full simulator training course. And just like you said, using the MOR in the actual airplane would never be done.
You can NOT turn off the fuel inadvertently in a PC-12. It requires a very definite, and totally separate set of movements. A small latch must be released, and then a large handle must be raised 90 degrees. This handle is mounted on the aft of the pedestal, and pilots have no reason to ever use it, except in situations like this. It certainly wouldn’t happen in a mindless, automatic fashion. Also, if it had been fuel related, he would have a fuel low press CAWS message, along with a master caution, and would be in no doubt as to what was happening. This gets back to flying the aeroplane and running the emergency checklist.
@@Jordandelara Many PC-12 operators use the MOR in flight during training events. Pilatus has no limitation against this. I'm actually surprised that Boutique Air would not do this during training events if you aren't using the simulator. So your first experience with the MOR lever is during an actual emergency? That's crazy.
As others have stated, he said I have pumps on and ignition on. Having worked on PC12s for a few years, I have operated the MOR lever to do standard maintenance checks. The important thing is to move it slowly because you’re bypassing the FCU. The maintenance check was to keep the PCL at idle and move the MOR slowly to max and make sure the engine temperature, speed, and torque did not exceed the limits. Even though the PT6 is a reliable engine, when they fail it’s usually the compressor/turbine or FCU. In a single engine airplane, engine trouble means land now; in a multi engine airplane, engine trouble means land soon (there are exceptions).
Engine trouble on a single engine is 'flight over', direct vectors to nearest suitable airport. Not even a decision.
Exactly...no reason to miss that runway.
Agree. It was a flight chops video that pointed out that you need to make those types of decisions in advance. Like a takeoff briefing - "If x happens I will do y". So you don't have to consider the options, just do what you mentally practiced.
I am still alive because of that rule several times over.
SR22 has one more option: Cirrus Airframe Parachute
Yup. Engine problems of ANY sort are not going to improve - borne out by statistics. Just make that assumption from the word go and act accordingly and get yourself down safely ASAP.
Juan, this was a very good presentation. I'm a turboprop pilot myself, but with two engines (PW-127). I agree with your comment about never turning away from the landing spot. As a former glider pilot, I like to practice dead stick landings in the simulator when we have extra time left after the session. If I'm too high, I have several options: Extend the downwind, extend the base leg, make S-turns on final, use flaps and gear as airbrake, etc.
And I use a Slip to drop altitude fast.
As I listened to this radio exchange yesterday I was thinking he was sounding like he was seriously underestimating the danger he was in. Get it down and get it down now. Electives are not good in an emergency.
Just as bad as Get thereITIS
Especially, when the engine that's in trouble, is the *_only one you've got!!_*
Exactly . It's not a car .
The pilot ignored the old saying Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. He put unnecessary Communication first, and gave ATC a lengthy explanation of his problem.
Phil D ..I agree. As an owner/pilot of the PC 12 I find this baffling. I can go into the details of why he shouldn’t have been fooling around with this airplane and a possible faulty FCU, but I think it’s self explanatory to most people here. Sounds to me like he was more worried about what his employer might say, a schedule setback or facilities equipped to do repairs/maintenance on the aircraft. Now, I can promise you his employer is “somewhat” more angry, there isn’t a schedule at all anymore and there isn’t a repair facility in the world that can solve his issue. THREE MILES from a perfectly good runway with a fluctuating NG and he decides to go THIRTY MILES. End of conversation with zero excuses.
His choice of heading back to DFW brought back the old adage one is taught when first flying twin engines a/c. "When you lose one engine, the second will just barely get you to the scene of the crash".... When things start to go back with an engine... take the first alternate and let the mechanic put his tools in a truck.
As the veteran ( I don’t like the word survivor),of a few engine outs in singles. Fly the airplane, Fly the airplane and then Fly the airplane! Nothing is more important than reaching a survivable flat spot.( not necessarily an airport) if you’re lucky enough to still have some power use it to get to that flat spot right frickin now. it may come in handy to get over last minute barriers. If anyone’s curious. Mine were. Lost windscreen, landed on Oklahoma ranch. Lost compression.landed in Kansas wheat field and lost prop blade (engine broke from three mounts) landed in somebodys back yard.FLY THE AIRPLANE.
Mike Maloney Ok Mike, now I am curious lol. “Lost windscreen???” In all of my years of flying that is a new one. And “lost prop blade”? This one isn’t hard to believe, but please do tell. Thanks! Glad you made it through them all.
I almost lost a prop blade in a C210... shook like crazy. glad you made it. great advice. I hope you keep buying lottery tickets.. :)
Mike Maloney: How many hours do you have. Ever wondered how many time Bob Hoover crashed before he became adamant about flying the plane thru the plane crash. That’s is the one thing he used to drill into people’s heads, fly it through the crash!
My best friend bought a C421 with newly overhauled engines. Swore it was the best investment he made until the 3rd month he had it. one of the engines blew, but apparently the mounts came lose and the motor somehow shifted. He said that his 2 business partners were trying to call their wife’s to tell them that were crashing, he was reassuring his customers that he had the best pilot... and his pilot was struggling to keep control long enough to get it on the ground because he could barely control it. Now he only charters turbines, won’t get in a piston
Wow Mike. Not sure if I should call you "Lucky" or "Tough Luck". Have you ever pissed off a "God" of some kind? Either that or you are a really nice guy "cause someone likes you"
Gracias Juan!
Great overview/blow-by-blow. When I heard the pilot ask for vector to DFW (30 miles away) after having requested the closest landing strip at Rockledge (sp?), I could tell he had just assured a tragic outcome.
Ng is the gas generator RPM (in percent) in the PT-6 (analogous to N2 in a single shaft engine). The PT-6 is a free air turbine engine and uses concentric shafts. The expanding gases from the gas generator turn a separate turbine that powers the propeller through a gearbox. Primary power setting indication is torque.
The PT-6 engines are very reliable and rarely fail. If you have a PT-6 starting to fail like in this case, it should be approached as a land as soon as possible. Easy for me to say but it is unfortunate he talked himself out of landing at Rockwall only 3 miles away. As it turned out he might have completed that landing before the engine completely failed.
That is exactly what I'd said. He should have downed at Rockwall!
Covering the chapter 3.4.4. of the emergency procedures, Juan was surprised about the instruction to "land as soon as practical", and so was I. Apparently, Pilatus judges a partial loss of power as a situation where they leave the impact of the power reduction and the risk calculation up to the pic...either land as soon as practical or escalate to as soon as possible...depending on what? The analytical talent of the pilot in an emergency situation and doing the 100% correct risk assessment? Later, and that part of the checklist wasn't discussed in the video, chapter 3.6.11 covering Engine NG, step 4 clearly states "land as soon as possible"....which, in this case, was the problem and the only right thing to do. Greeting from Switzerland, only 40km from the Pilatus factory :-)
if you only have a single shaft wouldn't that be N1 ?
I only had one PT-6 fail on me and it was at V1... damn thing. But for the rest of the 8000 hours it worked flawlessly. Love those P&W's.
NG N1 is gas producer NF NP N2 is output
I love when you collaborate with VAS. Best of both worlds.
NG is the gas generator rpm, analagous to N2 on a jet engine. ITT is Interstage Turbine Temperature.
ricm96 has it right.
Ng is the (core) gas generator. In a turboprop, Torque is the measure of power output absorbed by the prop.
If Ng decreases, the engine can not produce as much torque.
Watch Stevio Kinevo's videos. He always talks about NG on the TBM.
I guess Juan ment NG is the primary engine instrument on turboprop like the N1 is on Jet planes....😊 or EPR on the MD82!
Kelvin Gladwin
NG is pertinent during starts. Failure of Ng to accelerate during start is indicative of a hung start.
When setting power, the Torque indicator is used. ITT can also be a limiting factor when setting power, but Ng is not referenced when setting power.
Gianni Dameno S1nglengine
Except it isn’t.
Ng is NOT the primary engine instrument to set or measure power output in a turboprop.
Torque is used to set and measure power in a turboprop and is most analogous to N1.
Ng is analogous to N2, the core of the engine, the section that is the gas generator.
He said the NG was 85% and thought it was recovering. Some folks think out loud in emergencies, like; Oh Shh. ATC would understand that. Prayers for the pilot.
You beat me to it. I seemed like he was thinking out loud, working the problem, and overworked. It's easy to say he should have done something else from the comfort of my comfy couch. He also may have felt some company pressure, lots of aviation companies are struggling. Land the plane now, wait, it's doing better so go back to the company hanger, oh crap, survive. He did, and the company has one less aircraft to store and maintain. Could have been worse...
docdurdin he needed to concentrate on flying the plane not telling ATC what he’s doing and what’s happening? Why does he need the packs? On aviate navigate and communicate right ? But we can Monday morning this to death prayers for him
He was putting information on record just in case. If you are single pilot and you have a cockpit voice recorder but no one to talk to, a cockpit voice recorder is useless.
What an amazing, tough and smart aircraft. Seems it saved the pilot's life. I hope he makes a fast recovery!
"...LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICAL/POSSIBLE." The day I had an engine fire in a Navajo, I asked for vectors to the closest airport with a 3000 ft runway. It was a successful outcome, but I was strongly criticized by management for not flying an additional 7 miles back to the home (maintenance) airport.
That's the short version. Here are some more details:
I departed TEB about 10am local on an IFR cargo flight to Detroit. Climbing through 5,000 ft, IMC, we were in contact with NY departure and at that time of day it is like a very busy party line - everybody wants something from ATC. Then my copilot said, "Hey Mike, we've got an engine fire on the right side!" I looked out and sure enough - orange flames coming out of every opening of the nacelle. IDENTIFY (yeah it's that one over there with all the flames), VERIFY (it's still the one burning) SECURE. I did that too, throttle idle, mixture to cutoff, prop to feather, boost pump off, cowl flap closed. I had the copilot tell NY we had an emergency. When he did that, the party line went instantly silent and a different voice came on from ATC, "What is the nature of your emergency and what services do you require?" We answered the question and requested vectors to the closest suitable airport and a descent. "Turn right to heading 010, Morristown will be 12 o'clock and 3 miles. Descend and maintain 1,500; you are cleared to land any runway...." Then he gave us the surface wind MMU altimeter setting and the tower frequency - "contact them if able, but you are cleared to land." The rest was just like all the training flights we all have done, landing safely.
I was really impressed with how all the other pilots went radio silent, and the professional handling by New York departure. I could not have asked for better service than what we got that day. Hats Off to NY ATC!!
Friend of mine had something similar happen, in regards to the management complaint. He said to them, "ok, lets go up, I'll shut down the engine and we can try it your way." Guy didn't take him up on the offer or mention it again..in that case it was handling a soon to fail engine. Anybody complaining about landing at nearest location after any in flight fire not the result of being shot at shouldn't be in aviation, in my opinion.
Screw Management, they don’t have to raise your children. Neither management nor owners will ever push me to fly.
Fuck management, ALL if their concern was with Money and time. I told my wife, I bet the reason he tried for Dallas was he concern about management being pissed the schedule would be messed up.
My apologies for language, but to often part 135 pilots have to deal with horrible managers/dispatchers.
“You have chosen wisely.” I’m willing to bet your Co pilot didn’t criticize you. Nor your family and friends.
Put very simply- you did the right thing, AND lived to tell the tale.
Management can go jump with that attitude.
Sent my daughter from Pendleton Oregon to Portland Or. on a Boutique Pilatus. I would rate them a 9.9 out of 10 for customer service and the aircraft looked to be impeccably maintained.
I as a pilot (and my daughters protector) did a partial exterior preflight as best I could via Ziess 7x40 binoculars from behind a fence at about 150ft. As I said the aircraft was very well maintained and clean. The pilot carried himself very professionally.
This guy sounded very professional as well … right up until he crashed it.
Young or inexperienced pilots will often talk their way thru an emergency. My belief is he is thinking out loud, and venting stress. I try not to be too hard on a pilot after their first engine loss. His adrenaline rush was probably massive which hinders the logic function of his brain. This is a physiological limitation and will become manageable with time. The company may need to rethink their training..... Just a thought.
Exactly what I thought. Adrenaline. I remember Al Haynes from United and the Sioux City Crash came to our Commuter company to talk with the pilots about how to handle emergencies and what he learned and he passed that information to us and I never forgot it. He said, "never raise your voice and get excited, talk your way through the emergency, because if you raise your voice the other pilots will ramp up their adrenaline and you will make mistakes, stay calm and live and work together". This is kind of what this channel is like too. So many pilots and thousands of hours of been there, done that. It is refreshing to see the positive comments.
also there is no flight recorder on board so reporting to the tower is a nice way of recording what is happening in real time so if the worst outcome happens there is some record of what was going on from the pilots point of view
The PT-6 is flatlined at 1700 RPM prop speed when flying. Only the prop AoA adjusts the power when flying. So losing NG is a direct loss of propulsion force equivalent to that indicated on the instrument.
I should have continued..a loss of power in a turboprop can also be a result of the propellor pitch control - it's not necessarily the engine.
Thank goodness the pilot survived. I’m not in the industry but appreciate your perspective.
I reckon he said "Do you have me in sight, sir?" because he'd lost the airport by turning away. That happened to me in training - altitude is quickly lost in the turn away and the sight picture is much changed.
The pilot was extremely detailed with ATC regarding the problem, but too detailed. I've watched so many Aopa accident case studies where the pilot provides technical jargon that most controllers don't understand unless they are also pilots on the side. ATC just needs to hear the emergency declaration and the requested intentions, (souls/fob). Glad this guy made it.
Maybe he wanted to make a record in case he didn't make it so people would know what going through his mind.
I think he was providing the commentary IN CASE he didn't make it.
Great explanation, Juan! Victor had his video up not long after you had first mentioned this incident - I believe it was the same day. Just listening to the audio made it very clear what had happened, but that video at the airport was priceless. This demonstrates exactly how decision making can go south in the heat of battle. Could clearly see every link in the chain form, from that initial decision to try and head to DFW. A great learning moment for everyone, no doubt about it! At the first hint of engine trouble, get that SOB on the ground! Worry about everything else later. THANK YOU, as always! 👍🍻
can't commend you enough juan for all your solid content.
Agree 100%- I would like to know this pilot’s experience/total hrs and hrs in type- did a lot of thinking out loud with ATC
Yes, Juan; great job as always.
PPL and long term motorcycle safety instructor. Love reviewing NTSB data as a learning experience. Really like your approach to reporting these. It’s always easy to hangar fly, when the fecal matter is hitting the rotary device it is real tough to stay ahead of the immediate situation.
Lot's of lessons to be learned from this crash. This indecision toward diverting once the problem first appeared is something we have to fight constantly within ourselves. Same way, no need to pass all those infos to ATC (who did a great job, by the way). It is procedural. Even on our heavies we shouldn't wonder around when one of our engines start to play funny. Imagine that on a single engine aircraft... As pilots say back in Brazil, "quem tem duas, tem uma; quem tem uma, não tem nenhuma", or, in a direct translation from portuguese "who has two, got one; who has one, got none". Although I have some experience flying at night and IMC on a single engine myself and feel very comfortable doing it, it of course requires a quick response once things get weird, and I have my share of stories to tell. Great video by VASA and an excellent job by you again. Easy said than done, the engineers saved another pilot. But a lesson to be learned by us all. The PC12 pilot, to who we wish a quick and complete recover, for sure have learned.
I heard enough, once he left a perfectly good airport to try to reach DFW. Never ever leave a suitable emergency airport, in hopes of reaching another.
I know accident reviews are about learning rather than blame, but this was just horrible airmanship. Bad decisions, waffling over RT instead of flying the aircraft, and then the stall is just unforgivable.
We train for this. We practise this. A lot. You basically have one job to do with engine out on a single - pitch down for your required airspeed and stick on it. Pitching up thinking it will take you further is the action of someone who has never had any training.
Monday morning quarterback: Condition lever cutoff feather, flaps 40, firm surface gear down, soft surface, snow, mud or water, gear up, AofA slow diamond, touch down 73 to 75 knots. Push enabled 64 knots flaps 40.
Thanks again from down under. As a retired GA reconational pilot I emensely enjoy your posts you have a way of explaining. I am sure you are an exceptional diligent pilot. Stay safe and a speedy return to your chosen career.
Such a good, detailed analysis based on what can be known so far. I had my engine oil temp redline in unfamiliar airspace and a lot goes through your mind. I asked the controller for vectors to the nearest airport with maintenance facilities. He sent me to a rural airport that had no repair facilities, plus the runway had workers on the last 1/3rd of the runway. Very challenging, but I was able to land and call my mechanic. It will be interesting to hear from this pilot as to what happened.
Well done. I hope the pilot survives his injuries. He certainly had his hands full.
Juan this hits home as I almost died at 21 when in a rental Bonanza my student pilot friend made a couple or 3 bad / delayed decisions, we landed on fumes in a declared emergency.
Quick solid decision making skills can make all the difference....!
Hi Juan, thanks for an excellent presentation of the Pilatus PC-12 accident. The combination of ATC tracking, on the ground video, the operators manual, and the company's stick shaker video was well put together and made everything so clear on what can happen and what should happen. Thanks!! - Dean from Minnesota
Well, I've been flying for longer than most pilots live and the mantra I've always heard is: Make a decision and don't change your mind and fly the airplane all the way to the crash. Another one along that line was when Rex Harrison trashed out a beautiful Ryan PT-22 by landing it 50 feet in the air over a perfectly good golf course.
Rex Harrison or Harrison Ford?
I know who Rex Harrison is!
Brother, we're old.
Thanks Juan, great summary as usual and look forward to more info when it’s released! The PT6 is usually a pretty reliable beast unless mistreated- I have about 1800 odd hours on PT6A-42’s (Cheyenne III). Glad you’re teaching your son the right things to do: When I had 2 hours flight time, it was always “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate”.
With 28,000+ hours in everything up to and including 747-400’s, it’s STILL “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate”!
And WOW 😮 , that PC12 stall, don’t think I ever flew anything with a stall as nasty as that!
As I pushed back from the gate in my E140, I started both engines, had a short taxi and I said the only traffic was a little airplane, the PC-12. We taxied right behind N477SS to R35L from DFW, and it all looked fine to us. I was ENY 4151. Crazy to think that I was one of the last people to see that plane intact.
He said I have "pumps" on not props. It kind of cut out when he said it but engine issues call for fuel pumps and auto ignition ON.
Exceptionally good video Juan! Quite an eye-opener. I wouldn't hesitate to fly in a Pilatus. As you indicated, it is a safe and popular aircraft. I've seen videos of them operating in the mountains in Asia, short field approaches in the Caribbean etc which they walk. I wonder, though, whether the T-tail is a factor in that stall behaviour. The low wing shouldn't be a problem, IMHO. Regards!
His mixup of runway numbers is a clear indication that he’s overloaded. Part of the reason he’s overloaded, in my opinion, is that he’s talking way too much to atc. Just declare mayday, focus on the aircraft.
Yeah. He never even actually declared an emergency.
SFMC 98 When you do declare an emergency, it’s just you and the controller on the frequency. No other chatter. At least that is the way it was when I had an engine failure in a MU2 years ago and could not maintain the altitude assigned by ATC. They told me to stand by for lower and that’s when I declared an emergency and told them I was descending.
He told ATC all the info about Ng because he knew you would be making a video and wanted to help your content
ROFLMAO! 😂
This is a very strange comm by pilot to ATC.
@@Mike7478F I'm going to assume he was thinking out loud. Happens.
Well... 85% is the speed N1 defaults to with an input shaft failure. I doubt ATC knew that and it might be coincidental (I don’t know the cause.. but I do know 85% N1 won’t keep a plane flying).
😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣😂😂😂😂😂 Good one 👍!!!!
Thank you sir for putting this all together! Thank you sir for putting all your videos together. You have saved lives over the years...you just don't know which ones or how many.
I used to build cabin lighting for Pilatus , but so what... Great detail on this unfortunate situation. Thank Juan
EXCELLENT video Juan. I am curious if any Pilatus pilots will chime in and share their insight.
I was certified as an AV8B engine operator. We had to demonstrate “Manual Fuel Operation”. You essentially shut off the fuel control unit then controlled fuel to the engine with a hand throttle. First action turn the igniters on . Then move the manual fuel lever VERY carefully ! This is only performed to verify “Manual Fuel” functionality. Incorrectly done you could severely damage or scrap the engine. “Manual Fuel” was the pilot’s last chance to keep the engine operating. The AV8B is a single engine jet ground attack aircraft.
As always Juan a great dissection of the PC-12 incident. The pilot was definitely overwhelmed and in my opinion was more worried about the airplane and not himself. Engine out... land, land, land.
Hoping your engine holds together for another 30 miles is a gamble I wouldn't be taking. The pilot passed on the airport he was first vectored to. Why not be on the ground and sort the engine malfunction than continue on?
The second situation was descending to early. Altitude is insurance in the bank. Then the final error was not flying over the runway and then lowering your gear too soon. Seems odd to be operating such a high performance aircraft and make these three vital errors.
Never fly over a good runway when you have engine problems especially single engine .....
PC12 is such a beautiful 😍 plane , If I had the millions for one, I'd own one for sure. Another great video and breakdown !
The pilot probably made what seemed to be reasonable and low-risk decisions all along the way, but some key errors and bad luck added up not to his benefit. I'm glad he made it out alive; it seems he has Pilatus to thank for that.
Electing to land engine out with a tail wind when, as Juan said, he was perfectly set up for a right downwind to land into the wind was neither reasonable nor low risk.
@@greggpedder yes and no, landing with a tailwind can be done safely, but he was behind the airplane, seemingly not sure if he was landing on 18 or 36. At that point he may not have had the altitude to do a normal downwind for 36 so choosing 18 was a surer bet. However, he got in trouble when he ended up low on energy by turning away from the runway and extending the gear as @blancolirio mentioned.
I wonder if the prop was feathered or not?
You're putting together fantastic videos, Juan. Thanks for what you're doing!
However often the guys over at Flight Safety brief on manual override procedures, they just started doing it a little bit more! 😄
The PC12 is perfectly flyable using the MOR lever without risking damage to the FCU. Throttle response is much more delayed so a fat fist on the MOR could lead to an over torque/temp situation if you're not monitoring your instruments. The USAF has us fly full patterns on the MOR to get used to the lag with power adjustments, but again, totally flyable.
Excellent Presentation. A few things I can elaborate on as an experienced PC12 Pilot:
NG is the compressor section (anagalous to N2 in most jets), it's (mostly) irrelevant for power output until it drops below ~80-85% (flight idle), the primary power instrument is Torque, represented on the top-left of the engine instrument panel picture in your video. This isn't to say NG doesn't show you if you're making power, just that it's secondary to Torque when making power setting adjustments in-flight.
When/If NG drops below 80% uncommanded (while in flight idle) you clearly have an engine problem and should engage the MOR (Manual Override) lever, and if it drops below 60% you're now in "sub-idle" and will likely need starter assistance below 50% to keep the engine running (along with MOR lever operation.) I couldn't find it on youtube but at Simcom there is a video showing MOR operation with a test-flight induced FCU failure and the response of the MOR lever at various altitudes. Lower altitude = faster/worse NG rollback. We train with the MOR lever every recurrent in the sim.
When used with caution, the MOR lever is safe to operate in flight for training purposes. There's no way to simulate a FCU (fuel control unit) failure in-flight without a test-flight type setup. In the sub-idle condition the MOR lever can absolutely devastate an engine, which is why you always check that it is fully stowed during engine startup.
One more note on your video:
The pilot said "pumps on" not "props on", referring to the wing tank fuel boost pumps., not the prop heat. Typically we are trained to do this if we have a "fuel pressure" amber warning, likely as a result of a fuel filter clog.
I can (and shouldn't) speculate on 4 reasons for the engine trouble:
1) Fuel Control Unit (FCU) failure. The MOR lever should be able to rectify this to get the plane to a safe landing site.
2) Bypass valve failure. The BPV is intended to prevent compressor stall/surge. If it fails open, the compressor section will be bypassing compressed air back to the engine inlet and power may be greatly reduced.
3) High-pressure fuel pump failure. The engine only has one of these and without it there is not enough fuel pressure to feed the engine.
4) Clogged fuel filter. The bypass should engage, but this raises questions as to why it clogged in the first place, and if clogged, what sort of debris/foul material was being sent along via the bypass to the engine/high-pressure fuel pump.
This learning excercise reminded me 1. Not lower the gear (or flaps) until final and 2. to dissipate altitude don't turn away from your landing site. I know this but in a time of crisis it might not be my first thought! Another important thought- how do I compensate for headwind/tailwind. Great learning experience despite the unknowns.
Couple suggestions for pc 12 pilots now that I'm successfully retired from them:
I was a pilot doing the data gathering test flights (in the real plane) for making the FS NG sim. We did stalls with a disabled pusher. With no flaps it stalled like a Cherokee and was a non event. With full flaps, a wing dropped very suddenly and quickly. Instead of trying to roll it back, it was actually faster to just help it do a full roll. I am not suggesting it though. Both cases are obviously bad news close to the ground. With enough altitude, not a big deal, but the pc12 would have a lot of roll "inertia" from the sudden snap and would end up rolling to pretty much 90 degree bank before it would stop and reverse the other way. Long story short, don't fight the pusher. I have flown with people that said they would hit the pusher override on a landing stall. Very bad idea unless you're 3 feet off the ground.
The MOR lever. I suggest practicing in the plane, it's not as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Yes, it can do damage if you are careless, but it's also not as touchy as some make it out to be. In a real world emergency, even if you overdo it and overtemp, just pull it back some and try again slower. Unless you leave it full blast, the engine won't instantly turn into a puff of smoke like in the sim. Better know what to expect in the real world. For practice, pull the power back to half or so (to keep NG high and safe) and try out the MOR. Feels more responsive and direct with it.
Don't get too overly confident in the single engine pt6. The engine out climb is terrible. Be paranoid and have a plan. I've had 2 pt6 issues before. I was always lucky that I was not far from landing.
I enjoyed the pc12 but I'm glad to be out of them. Felt like my single engine luck was going to run out sooner or later.
Edit - Found some old footage of the no pusher stalls. Some stuff was purposely omitted to not give out bad ideas.
ua-cam.com/video/5CXCpIz8_rk/v-deo.html
The Cessna Grand Caravan has the PT6-114 turbine producing 675 shp, roughly half the larger turbine PT6 in the Pilatus PC12.
Flight Safety covers the FCU failure due to loss of Py suction to the FCU and subsequent loss of torque. The best indicator of this is the Ng gage which will drop as low as 48%. Federal Express Feeder does not practice in the actual aircraft in flight. Sim only. I know a pilot who tried MOR in a Caravan out of curiosity and destroyed the PT6-114 turbine because of no FCU protection. Maybe the PC12 MOR is less sensitive? Juan correctly covers these issues in the presentation. You have to be well rehearsed mentally to catch a loss of suction and implement the MOR soon enough.
I’ve never tried it in the caravan. Pretty much the same fuel controller isn’t it? It’s been a long time for me since the 208. I could see jabbing it forward though once the safety wire breaks if they’re still like that?
Pilot of a pc12 operation I used to work at had a bellows failure and a roll back to idle. This was an early pc12 with the old style bellows. He said it was not much of an issue but he was in cruise with plenty of time to not rush. He was the one that trained me in a pc12 when I first started and had me practice it in the plane.
Fast forward to the sim data gathering - we did multiple scenarios with the MOR lever. Sim should be based off that unless they ended up using some other data for it. I never had anything iffy happen while doing it. Just mimic the fuel rate increase of the fcu. Same thing just no protection.
I have am owner/operation of a PC-12 for the past 16 years, on my third one. The pilot announced his NG was rolling back, his first action should have been an immediate turn towards the nearest airport and using the MOR lever procedures. If the MOR lever did not restore power then it would be engine out procedure and he then is pointed at the nearest airport. The pilot made several mistakes and didn't not follow the correct Pilatus emergency procedures. The host incorrectly identifies Flight Safety whereas Simcom is the factory training facility for the PC-12.
Should have declared an emergency gone direct to the nearest airport.
Always easy to shuttle in a few MM to for repairs. We don't care what airport you send us to, just let's have an aircraft in one piece to work on!!! Have tools will travel!!!
He put to much faith in the pc-12 engine sounds like to me. Lucky it wasn't at night
Are you serious? With 5,000' altitude, he should have shut her down, feathered the prop and set up on a straight-in approach, dirty her up and execute a dead stick 8-point roll. If Bob Hoover could do it, so could anybody crazy enough, with a malfunctioning engine, to fly away from a first suitable landing field.
Done and done ✅
The PT-6 FCU is an old, totally mechanical unit. As a pilot we control the FCU governor (a speeder spring and few fly weights, same as a prop gov). We simply set the desired NG (compressor rpm, this is a free turbine so we also have prop rpm NP). The FCU governor opens (for more rpm-fuel-power) or closes (less rpm-fuel-power) the fuel valve. Once desired rpm-fuel-power is achieved the fuel valve "floats" and maintains proper fuel flow to maintain desired NG (on speed condition). The fuel valve is moved by P3, bleed air from the compressor that is then reduced (Px and Py within the FCU). If you loose air (for whatever reason) the fuel valve goes to a mechanical stop (called min fuel, same as on any carburetor), the engine becomes unresponsive to power lever inputs and the engine will idle. This happens at times when the mechanics forget to connect the P3 line after compressor wash (the line is disconnected so no water gets inside the FCU pneumatic side.
The manual control lever allows the pilot to directly move the fuel valve, it is that simple. Only single engine installations typically get this manual control, Cessna Caravan for example.
The FCU governor along with the pneumatic side (Px and Py) provides some acceleration/anti compressor stall/ITT protection but especially starting from idle on a PT-6 a gentle hand is required. There is no modern day "full automatic" anything within that FCU. Bunch of springs, bellows and some old fashion mechanical stuff only.
Here are some NG numbers for a PT-6 27 (I fly twin otters)
46% this is min fuel stop, FCU governor not working or no Px-Py
50% FCU governed idle, fuel valve in the floating position
85% compressor utilizes both axial and centrifugal design, there is a bleed valve that is open at low rpm,
the axial portion pumps too much air at these low rpm, at 85% the centrifugal is ready for all of it
97% sea level, warm day full power
94% typical cruise power at 8000 warm day
Last point, power is set by prop torque TQ reading. For me it is 50 psi, based on the air density I get that 50 TQ at different NG values. As stated earlier I control the FCU governor RPM but my power indication is the prop TQ value. So many guys that I fly with (lost of low time co pilots) are not very interested with the NG and only look at the TQ values. This is the same as if you were looking at what the tires are doing in your car while dealing with engine issues. This pilot here did well by reporting NG and not loss of TQ. On the other hand I don't think ATC knows much about NG.
This might be way more then anyone wanted to know, but I am stuck home and can't fly so here it is.
Thx
I am not a pilot; nevertheless, it seems to me if I have engine trouble and I only have one engine; I am going to want to put myself on the ground as soon as I can.
Kevin Barry exactly!
@@topofthegreen Flown many vintage military trainers early in my flying career; my instructor emphatically said, " if you have the altitude, there is no fucking reason to miss the runway" When you are going down, screw the approach...just land on the runway.
Kevin Barry Yes correct, he sounded indecisive ....bad idea even to think of heading to DFW with bad engine land ASAP.
So… straight down? 😁
The big mistake was his 360 turn before the runway, with a dead engine I would think that's a no-no !
Juan San, great segment as many others have commented here. I didn't have time to read the scores of responses yet, but having just watched your outstanding video and a number of the responses, the following comment flashed into my mind based upon my experience as both a retired Part 121 and a retired military fighter/attack/recce pilot: in any emergency the very first procedural steps are: 1. maintain aircraft control,
2. analyze the situation and take proper action, and 3. land as soon as possible. That encompasses the outstanding, life-saving priorities you have wisely instilled in your son: Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate. Keep up the good work, Brother!
Great analysis! Thanks for this study. The pilot had a responsibility to his employer let alone to himself to put that plane down asap. Engine fails never get better.
That's a properly definitive statement. "Engine fails never get better"
As a PC-12 pilot and B738NG/Max and A320 capt I thank you very much Juan for your beautiful video and messages😊
Juan, My thought on the pilot announcing his conditions was to get it on the audio for the record. Could be very helpful in figuring out the cause of the crash should something go really wrong and the pilot not make it. Also as soon as he said he wanted to make it to DFW I was concerned about his ADM.
The stick pusher system has to be activated before every flight.
I’ve been telling this to my wife for forty years. She is still laughing at me. ⚓️
long as she's still your wife ....its workin....lol
As a hobby I fly radio controlled airplanes where the engines are less reliable. On a busy day there can be half a dozen dead stick landings/crashes. Because they are toys we can calmly walk to the scene of every incident and it's funny how similar our conversations are to Juan's in this video. Was it (the engine) making any power? Good call turning back for the airport when it started running rough. That downwind approach was really all you could do. I got nervous when we saw you got slow and the wing started to drop. Good job dropping the nose and keeping her flying. Landing in the field instead of pushing your luck for the runway was a good call...
One of your best videos yet, Juan! I know some folks don't agree with the idea of dissecting an accident before the NTSB report comes out, but those reports often take forever and by the time they come out, people have often forgotten the accident and moved on. Besides, there are some accidents in which there are lessons that are pretty obvious, pretty quickly. This is such an accident. I am sure that the NTSB will figure out why that PT6 failed, but pilots care more about how the situation should be handled when it happens. Great research, great presentation. Thank you!
Given his altitude at the time, I don't think heading toward Mesquite would have been a worse choice than Rockwall (though _DFW_ was a long way away with engine at idle). The runway at Mesquite is 1800' longer and 30' wider, which gives more choices and reduces the criticality of a precise approach. But it seems obvious to me that the critical error was the 360 to dump altitude rather than babying the attitude and altitude and landing on 36. It looks like he pulled that turn too hard (especially with gear down) and ended up out of energy, altitude, and ideas (as the old saying goes).
My suspicion is that when he went from, "I need to get back to base" to "I need to land right now", he shifted from OODA to reactive, seat-of-the-pants flying. It's an easy thing to do in that kind of high-stress, high-workload environment.
If you are high you potentially have a lot of options. S-Turns, Dump Flaps, Slip the aircraft or just land long, its a damn PC-12 its not like it needed the whole runway. Turning a full 360 and loosing sight picture should be a last option. Without judging it looks like a short approach for runway 36 would likely have been advisable.
Don’t know about the PC12 but a similar aircraft, the Daher TBM has manual override. MOR is checked by Maintenance on ground runs every 100hrs. And flight crews use it every time they are in the simulator.
I assume he turned away from the airport to lose ‘excess ‘ altitude. I’m thinking with those tremendous flaps and gear , he could fly directly to the runway, drop flaps and gear and point the nose way down and quickly lose any excess altitude with little airspeed gain.
Tough call. Easy to make sitting in my recliner.
Alright - looks like you have a new camera. Thanks for the update.
Thanks much! as you mention a SFO landing, preferred landing procedure. USAF taught me, With sufficient runway, aim to land 1/4-1/2 way down runway!
So many pilots have bought the farm by doing too much turning with not enough energy. If you lose power on takeoff your instinct is to turn around 180 to land on the runway you just departed, but the energy loss for the 180 is more than the energy you have at low altitude. The Space Shuttle, when landing, would cross the field with an energy surplus and would then fly about 270 degrees to line up for landing. They would maintain an energy surplus all the way to final where they'd scrub the excess energy. I think all pilots should learn to land dead-stick and perhaps also practice with gliders to gain the confidence for doing dead-stick landings.
I had the same thought, but you said it better. It's energy management....keep some extra until the end.
Thank you to all the Patreons.
Does someone know if a pilot's relief tube is a common feature on many airplanes? Sounds sort of fancy compared to a Gatorade bottle.
patreon is a rackett
Juan: Great job on the narrative. Could you do a session on explaining the graphics from VAS pertaining to what the symbols mean? When I watch VAS videos I can't determine the airport from other indications. Thank you for what you do sir!
Sometimes when I watch them I'm not sure where North is. Is North always up in those videos?
souocara38able , North, is always to the top of the presentation. Smaller airports , are just a line, depicting the orientation of the runway. At larger airports, as you look over at DFW, you see the runways depicted, and the dash lines coming out from them, depicting the final approach course. They are 1nm apart, and can be used to provide a radar surveillance approach.
VASAviation has a video that explains the radar map: ua-cam.com/video/J3NSzvVQAjU/v-deo.html
You’re a respectful, professional. It’s a pleasure to listen to your analysis. I bet you’re FO’s are stoked to get paired with you.
I watched this happening in real time on Flightradar24. When the icon stopped responding just short of the airport, I had a bad feeling. Seems there was a closer air strip, but I may be getting this flight confused with another emergency. At any rate, glad the pilot survived and hope he recovers well.
Ng or n1 is the same in a pt6a. Its the compressor speed and not power the pt6a is a free turbine. The tq is the power indication. The prop is driven by the power turbine . It is not conected mechanicaly to the compressor section.
The pwr lever over ride takes control of the fcu mechanicaly and takes the computing section out of the fcu. Once u use the over ride you need to watch the itt for an over temp.
Someone said about compressor stall at 50%. 50% is the engine self substaining lower limit. Below this the engine will come to a stop.
It shood be noted that this may not be a fcu failure
I have not flown in 20 years, (Started pilot training in my late teens and ran out of money) But I a very familiar with the area. Both Rockwall and Mesquite are single runway airports in a more or less north/south configuration (I know to this crowd that is plainly obvious). Rockwall is on the East side of lake Ray Hubbard and Mesquite is on the South West side of it.
I was quite confused with his decision to try to return to DFW. Even with my limited experience I surmised that not only would the distance would be a factor, but to make that return he is going to cross the flight paths of Addison airport and Dallas/Love Field airports putting himself in a position to have more information to deal with beyond what is occurring with his aircraft. Also his position put him outside of most of the developed areas of Dallas. From his initial position to the North and East you find large areas of farm land. Turning back towards DFW puts you in a position to be over much more densely populated areas.
In my thinking, with the wind out of the North, the best option would have been to head North East towards Rockwall and setup for a landing into the wind there. This would get me out from over the lake as soon as possible and not force me to cross it again. (Lake Ray Hubbard is not exactly small) This would also put me in a position to utilize the abundance of farm land in the event the situation deteriorated. Turning towards Mesquite heads back to populated areas and forces another lake crossing and forces me to drop significant altitude over the water to hit the runway from the North.
I remain interested in these as at some point I would like to get back into flying and I am posting the comments not to judge the pilot but to get feedback on my own thought process.
I am a baggage handler (so I really know nothing) but I believe that Cape Air which also serves EAS airports only uses two engine planes because their routes take them over water.
Juan on the PT6 the Torque is the primary indication of power. Between the torque and ITT you set the power. The NG or N1 is the gas generator speed and is normally controlled around 96 to a max of 104%.
I worked for boutique air for almost 3yrs and worked on that exact plane. I hope the investigation concludes soon and we know what happened. The pc12 is a great aircraft. Also that was a good pilot.
I’m a better pilot now, from just watching this! Thanks Juan!
Oh yea and thanks Pete!
Non-pilot here. With the "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" concept... After you declare an emergency and are given an airport, can you literally ignore all communication until the plane has landed? Will ATC clear the way for you without further communication?
@Craig Hondo Makes sense. Thanks!!
yes.
Very informative video!
Hopefully the pilot is ok and can eventually comment as to what indications he was seeing in the cockpit and as to wether he had time (due to low altitude) to access the POH and follow the procedure for engine reduced power in flight!
Rockwall F46 would have been a rough call- runway is only 3373ft. That's pretty short for a PC12 and a stressed-out pilot. Although its been years since I landed there, Rockwall has a road on the approach to 35 with an aptly named Rockwall visible on Google Street view-Trees on the other end. HQZ is 6000 feet could have turned out to be a wise decision with just one or two other variables. A decade ago I had an engine out near FIM VOR... looked closely at Santa Paula but opted for the big runway at KCMA. I made a very similar decision to leave the comfort of a short and difficult runway with an engine out for a distant larger runway with a prop blocking my view. Upon landing found that the engine ate a valve as I ate a great burger at the cafe (uncontrollable teeth chatter made it hard to chew). Bad memories .... I hope the guy recovers quickly.
I had a lot of the same thoughts as most of you. Why did he decide he could go to DFW rather than land immediately? Why did he lower the gear while heading away from the airport? Why did he stall and why with so much altitude? It looked like he might have made the airport (or level ground) if he had kept the aircraft flying.
It’s just too early to tell without more information but I’ll be interested in learning about his experience and training.
The temptation to get home or somewhere where you can get help is overwhelming.
You have no right to gamble when you only have one engine.. What happened to aviating, navigating and then communicating? Great video showing how human factors can really effect the decision making process
I don't like to blame a pilot's decision but I always tell my fellow pilots: Land ASAP and try to troubleshoot when you're safely on the ground, especially flying single engine and a single pilot. Don't gamble. We only live once. I'd like to know as well the age and maintenance status of this PC12. I was planning to purchase a PC 12 this year but I'll definitely switch to a King air or another reliable twin-engine or the PC 24.
I can assure you what we have here is a great learning experience because of PC-12 capability.
Scary. If there is one item SINGLE engine, SINGLE pilots learn from this,it is get to nearest field ASAP. Keep focus on aviatiing your aircraft.
Mike Crake - if you do only one thing right, it should be AIRSPEED (per procedure). Don’t loose control by getting too slow.
Getting to the nearest airport is navigate; that’s second in priority.
For helicopters manual operations is done in the acft I teach at FS almost everyday during the initial course and everyday in the recurrent course.
Juan, I just love your videos. As a teenager, I trained as a glider pilot but have not flown a glider in excess of forty years. Life got in the way LOL. You not only report on situations but give explanations that mean that the ignorant learn about aviation. So many armchair aviators with so many answers. Thanks for the facts. As Joe Friday of Dragnet would say, "just the facts Mam".
Thanks for your excellent reporting and for making sense of the chaff.
The Open Cirrus glider had a similar stall. You had to pull and hold the nose up to provoke a stall but when it stalled it went almost straight down. Similar height loss as well.
Outstanding video Juan, very informative. I've heard that the PC 12 doesn't handle stalls very well. You have to be on top of your game to successfully come out of one with that airplane. That stall/recovery video was really an eye opener, in showing how violent the stall characteristics are in a Pilotus.
Great video. One other thought that occurred to me was that the fuselage seemed to be in great condition for such an impact. Perhaps he got it leveled just enough behind those trees that blocked our video. Maybe they make em stronger in Switzerland.
I agree. I'm rather impressed by how well it held together.
Awesome job Mr. Browne. Very informative with plenty of sources. I believe with an expensive bird like that it woulda made money sense to have a copilot. A capt in training sitting right next to this guy. He was probably dealing with the startle effect all the way to the ground. Glad he survived and look fwd to more info and the NTSB report. Thanks again. 👍👍✈️✈️🇺🇸🇺🇸
Good as always Juan. Do a live feed with Elliot Seguin, a test pilot, please.
Quack.........
We do our recurrent in the airplane. We practice use of the MOR lever. Just count to ten while bringing it up. Not as sensitive as you’d think. Also we use Torque and ITT for power settings. Not sure I’ve ever looked at NG other than 13% for start. If fuel flow is 90 pph then use the MOR. Otherwise feather.
A refusal to accept the situation and a failure to stick to the plan. He fought both the airplane and himself into a bad landing he was lucky enough to be dragged away from.
He was 3 miles away from Rockwall when he declared his emergency. Rockwall has a 3300 foot ruway. Mesquite has a 6000 foot tower controlled runway 12 miles SW of Rockwall. I cannot understand his thinking to return to DFW 30 miles away, not only the distance but also having to be vectored around the airspace around Dallas Love Field has to be factored in as well.
The NTSB report will be interesting to read on this one.
Or McKinney to the north, would have been an easy straight in landing on 36 into the wind.
Ng is the gas generator RPM. The power indicator is the Tq (Torque). For a normal PC12 operation max Tq would be around 42psi with a 97% Ng. At 85% Ng he should have been more than able to climb, especially with no pax on board. The ignitors have a selection of Auto/On, they will also come on automatically if it think there is an engine failure, sorry I can't recall which parameter it measures to come on. The only thing he can choose for the props ice "anti ice". The "Flight Idle" selection at the higher power settings don't really have an effect. It is more to do with microswitches for the pressurisation system when you have the power control at it's lowest setting. The MOR, or Manual Overide fuel lever will usually give about 38 psi Tq, more than enough to get you out of trouble. Part of the engine ground runs post a maintenance check will often involve a check of the MOR. The problem is that for such a short lever, a little movement can give you a gutfull of fuel and as you say, because the Tq and Ng are no longer protected, you can stuff the engine. Why he would descend before he knows he can glide to an airport is beyond me.
Thanks Unapro!
Good video/s Juan. You can not please all the viewers all the time...
This is not a "turbo assisted" as some comments suggested. This engine the PT6 is a turbine engine. For example a Navajo is a turbo-charged piston engine ( Lycoming TIO540 I think) and the turbo charger ( blows compressed or extra air into the induction system ) may fail and engine continue to run. That has happened to me. The PT6 engine is a turbine engine that drives a prop. The throttle on the PT6 runs through a Fuel Control Unit, and if that unit fails ( in part ) then the Manual Override may be used to bypass elements of the FCU to regain engine throttle control but without temp protections of the fully functioning FCU.
Power management of the PT6 is managed by operating the power lever ( throttle ) using Torque as primary operations measure, limited by the Ng ( gas Generator percent 104.1 ) and ITT ( 840 degrees) temperature on the TBM I fly. Starting procedures uses NG as the critical parameter for "adding fuel" i.e. min rotation speed to add the fuel with ignition. e.g. During the start sequence after Ng makes 13%(min) fuel may be added. Engine motoring limits after a false starts all relate to Ng which makes it operationally similar to N2 in a axial turbine during the start sequence.