First class medical is no guarantee of even near term health. I speak from personal experience; I passed a 1st class medical and yet had a heart attack at the gym 3 months later.
And That is proof why it is a good idea to stay away from gyms this one over stressed your heart! I flew with a guy that was slim 35 years old ran five miles a day before work at the airport. after his run he came in sat in his desk chair for a cool down be fore his usual shower. I walked out to hangar to put the Jepps in the airplane after the the update party was over. walked into the office and he was gone.
Airline pilots becoming incapacitated in flight is not unknown. In my view the entire medical testing is a waste of time with the exception that blind or deaf pilots shouldn’t be allowed. A friend of mine who was the epitome of fitness and Chief pilot of a 135 operation keeled over and died while he was on his daily run.
@@LimeyTX The medical checks have saved many lives by letting people know they have early warning signs, and ensuring the conditions are treated or managed. Along with blindness and deafness, psychiatric conditions must also be considered. IMO the best solution is to have a copilot or at least a competent adult who can operate the radio and follow instructions. Such passengers have landed planes many times, including a woman in her 80s a few years ago. Such a tragedy that the PPL holder owner of the plane didn't hire a copilot.
@@islandlife756 I agree. I was being a little facetious. But the sad fact is that no matter how strict the rules are people are still going to have unexpected incidents. My point is not that pilots shouldn’t have regular checks. My point is that the checks are no guarantee at all that the pilot is good for another 12 months. I suspect that if you examined enough data you would find incidences where a pilot died on the way home from the AME.
There are no guarantees. Period. Anyone can suffer from an immediately crippling medical emergency at any time, regardless of their otherwise apparently good physical health. For example, there are zero warning signs for aortic or cerebral aneurysms. One moment you're fine, the next moment the pipe bursts and you are down for the count. It can happen to anyone.
I find it unacceptable that passenger jet manufacturers are not required to provide a loud, unmissable alarm system that will fire up the moment O2 levels decrease beyond a certain minimum, with perhaps a warning stage that would engage the moment the derivative of the O2 concentration becomes negative after 8 or 9,000 ft altitude.
You wouldn't even need an oxygen sensor for that, a simple barometer would suffice. I'm sure those already exist as the cabin pressure sensors, the issue in past events like the Olympus Airlines flight seems to be that flightcrew misinterpreted the Master Caution as some other hydraulic issue, or they correctly identified the issue but didn't put their oxygen masks on in time.
In Boeing or Airbus Aircraft you will get a master caution, when the cabin altitude gets above 10.000ft! I guess it would be no problem to install that in bizzjets as well. These planes cost several million dollar so it would be no problem to mandatory install that system for maybe 50.000$.
@@Breenild Exactly. Something better that a caution light on the panel is needed so that cases such as that of the Helios 737 would never happen again. On a somewhat related note, and being a pilot myself (C185 non comercial), I cannot fathom how is it that there is not an "AMBIENT" cockpit-wide indicator of the current (and very critical) state of the different possible AUTO modes (autopilot, autothrottle, and specifics, such as Holding-Altitude, Holding-Speed, etc.)...perhaps through an overall noticeable (though subtler than a warning, of course) coloring of the instrument panelt backlighting (or a simulated equivalent with the newer digital screens), perhaps a change from ambar tones to green tones to blue tones, and so on.
I have been in the chamber and experienced Hypoxia as part of military training and also while in an unpressurized cargo plane at 14,000ft. I was fine in the cargo flight until I stood up, waked to the back of the plane and returned to my seat. I was unaware I was suffering hypoxia onset (didn't think it was possible at that altitude), but the alert plane captain noticed and brought me an oxygen bottle. Under simulated 35,000ft elevation it is amazing how quickly you begin to suffer, to watch fellow students lose awareness and how they react. The more active you are, the quicker you suffer. Each student had a slightly different task, sorting playing cards, touching your nose with an index finger, repeatedly signing your name, etc. The student trying to touch his nose pushed instructors back when tried to replace his mask. He was totally focused and they had to hold his arm to get his mask on and for him to recover. RIP to those lost and prayers to family and friends grieving this tragic loss of life.
Thank you Don_and_his_stationair. As people have short memories but this does make the news - not front page. I rememeber an airline pilot who had a heart atttack at the controls, he didn't make it. The FO landed. The 1st class medical has stricter standards than the 2nd or 3rd. This pilot had his attack a month after the exam. The AME does what the checklist calls out. Do they add coronary angiograms too from now on? Yet still, it can happen. A friend of mine lost her dad, airline capt, he was having chest pains at home and went into the ER. He had a full attack there in the ER. They did all they could, he didn't make it.
@@chuckschillingvideos If you go back and read through the thread, you'll find I did not go straight to this originally. I agreed that hypoxia was the most likely cause. That being said, I offered fentanyl poisoning as a possibility b/c it is an all too common and serious problem in our country. It crosses all social boundaries including those of economic wealth. This was the only other thing I could think of if not hypoxia. How is it that there was no attempt by any of the adult passengers to even communicate on the radio? Seems possible they were incapacitated. Drugs are pouring into our country at an alarming rate. Perhaps this problem is not well understood and underestimated by those whose lives have not been directly touched by it. If you are one of the folks who fall into that category, you are lucky. But for a vast majority, this is a serious issue that has been taking many lives. Pilots are human. We are subject to the same pitfalls as anyone. There is also a lot of garbage that goes on under the radar in the medical community. The bottom line is it's important to find out what happened, face it honestly whatever it was, learn from it as best we can and hope the family and friends can have genuine closure. Doesn't happen for anyone who can't face the truth, whatever it may be in any circumstance, not just this one. This is why I was asking about the possibility of testing tissue samples for O2 content, or drugs or alcohol. It happens.
Last year in September a very similar accident happened when a German entrepreneur intended to fly his Austrian registered Cessna Citation II from Spain to Germany (together with parts of his family and friends), experiencing an apparent loss in cabin pressure (last thing he reported to ATC was a problem with the pressurization) leading to everybody on board becoming hypoxic. The plane was intercepted by different fighters as it crossed Europe (with the fighter pilots reporting they saw a slumped over pilot) and eventually plunged into the Baltic Sea when it ran out of fuel. I am not saying the above accident was also hypoxia-induced, but the similarities are apparent. Both are very tragic events, RIP to the victims.
I don’t believe that the plane was headed back to Elizabethton. It appears that the autopilot turned the plane to approach heading and held it until they ran out of gas. It just happened to be somewhat toward Elizabethton, but just a coincidence.
Too coincidental. A lot of pilots will put their departure point as the last point when they load their flight plan in the auto pilot. That seems very possible here.
@@richardmcspadden9189 Not too coincidental at all. The last leg of the flight plan was CCC to KISP (253 degrees). The course from KISP to Elizabethton is about 250 degrees. When the autopilot hits the last waypoint and doesn't know where to go they fly the last heading or go to roll mode which is similar. No one puts their departure point as the last waypoint or you will be getting nuisance fuel warnings from the fms for the whole flight unless you have enough to return.
@FunFacts , While I initially had the same thought, I think it's actually just proceeding direct Elizabethton. If you project outward the final heading before the spiral, the track crosses directly over Elizabethan airport. Although the plane did indeed complete at least some sort of approach procedure for Islip Airport, the track does not heading and flight path does not line up with the runway at Islip, though it is somewhat close.
I have over 25K hours, military pilot, retired airline pilot etc etc...I have never put my dep airport as the last point in any FMS I have programmed unless it was the final destination on a round robin flight...just sayin. I agree with the concept it ended up on the final approach heading to ILS 24 at KISP, then at the end of the approach defaulted into heading hold...anyone care to guess what the final approach course is at KISP...239 degrees
Nice job, Rich. It's really nice to see AOPA getting these videos out quickly after an incident. It show engagement with members and answers some questions a lot of us have. I'm trying to learn more everyday. Thanks.
I wish people would stop saying the aircraft flew over the White House or that it flew over the US Capitol. It did neither. The aircraft passed well north of both of those buildings. I also wish people would stop saying that the aircraft's heading out of ISP was a heading for those buildings. It was not. The heading after ISP was precisely the heading of the CCC-ISP leg. It seems clear the autopilot flew the aircraft to the end of the flight plan and then continued the last used heading.
I believe you are spot on. Very unfortunate that this happened. I always keep a close eye on my cabin pressurization to hope this would never happen on a flight of mine.
Good advice on the altitude chamber. I did that at Joint Base Andrews in the early 90s. We went as a group prior to flying mountain wave in Petersburg WVA. It was an eye opener.
I remember during one of my medical exams many years ago back in Poland I had to go through low pressure chamber/cabin training/assessment. During the “ascent” temperature drops to below dew point and fog develops in the chamber. Few seconds later disappears. Almost as if you were climbing through the clouds.
@@marcinp1-c5e No, cold outside temperatures makes the temperature drop. If it were balmy at 30k feet, it would be equally balmy inside an unpressurized aircraft but the fact is the higher the altitude, the colder the temperature.
@@chuckschillingvideos Don’t forget that low pressure chamber is located at an altitude close to sea level. Inside a building. Stable temperature around it. When you pump the air out of that chamber it causes the temperature inside that chamber to drop at what rate? 2 deg C per 1000ft. The same happens inside unpressurized airplane, glider, balloon… When you climb it will get colder inside the cabin.
I simulated the flight on X-Plane 12 using a G1000 equipped Phenom 300 bizjet. The FMS was programmed with the filed flight plan, which terminated at Long Island airport (KISP) after a final waypoint at Calverton VOR (CCC), which is the initial approach fix for the ILS RWY 24 approach. In normal operation, the pilot would have activated the approach after receiving clearance from ATC, causing the aircraft to fly an intercept for the ILS localiser. However since this did not happen, the aircraft turned before CCC to intercept the track from CCC to KISP, overflew KISP, and then continued to fly in GPS NAV mode (with crosswind compensation) away from KISP along the great circle course that joins CCC and KISP, with an initial course of 251 deg. magnetic (note that the course reported by FlightRadar24 is 239 deg. true which is approx 252 magnetic). This took it to a point 8 nm SSE of Montebello VOR (MOL), which is very close (I think within a mile or two) of the point where N611VG ran out of fuel and began to turn to the right immediately before crashing. May the pilot and passengers rest in peace; condolences to their families.
Well said. I'm still on the fence about NAV vs. HDG, because NAV requires a magenta line and there was no waypoint to proceed to. But the argument that it would be unlikely to fly a straight track for several hundred miles in HDG mode is powerful, too.
One pilot or two pilots are not a big factor in pressurization failures like this. This crash was one pilot, the Learjet crash with the golfer was two, pilots, and an Olympus Airlines B737 crash was with two pilots.
Pilots are trained to recognize hypoxia and yet the pilots in these incidents did not put on oxygen masks. Oxygen level can be monitored by sensor so it would not be a stretch for the aircraft auto-pilot to descend the plane to breathable altitude. No descent is no return for pilots and passengers.
One of he fighter pilots stated he could see the pilot sitting in the left seat and slumped to the right. Unfortunately....it wasn't a pressurisation failure 😢
As a Captain on many Boeings for 2 decades I had a standard check of cabin altitude, rate of climb/descent, and diff. at 20,000 ft on the way up and on the way down. This was not required by SOP's but made good sense to me.
ATC lost voice communications approximately 15 minutes after checking with Bristol TN radar they issued an IFR clearance. Cleared as Filed.. He was handed off to Atlanta Air Traffic Center ATZ he check in with ATZ they issued a clearance to FL240 then FL340 Some time after he read back the clearance and set 34,000 in the altitude select window, I feel he suffered from Hypoxic Hypoxia as did the others on board. My guess is that the Bleed Valves where not turned on prior to take off or a pressurization failure occurred.
His altitude was later amended by Atlanta to FL330 before entering Washington Center airspace because of traffic. This change was never acknowledged by the pilot. So whatever happened , happened before he reached FL340
Would such an experienced pilot not check the bleed valves ? I doubt. He was a commercial pilot as he flew for Southwest ; they do nothing without a check list and it would be on it. I don't see that man forgetting it, but I see him having a heart attack and dying. The autopilot would have done its "thing" until the plane ran out of fuel .
Thank you. Info and perspective I wanted. You cut right to the chase. No music and general blather. Very appreciated. You are an articulate speaker. Looking forward to more of your content and your viewers comments too.
If the passengers were not seen by the intercepting F-16s, this could perhaps indicate a pressurization problem, as all on board would have lost consciousness. If someone had been conscious during the flight, it is likely they would have seen the pilot slumped over and might have used the VHF to ask for help (there were two other adults on board). After all the flight lasted way longer than expected with no door between the flight deck and the passenger cabin. Too soon to tell exact,y what happened. What a sad and tragic circumstance.
@stevenwhitcomb9668 This is not necessarily so. They were frosted during the Payne Stewart accident, they were not during the Helios accident. Too soon to know just what happened, too soon to discard any possibility.
I also think it was depressurization, but a slow depressurization. Everyone got sleepy as the plane went up until everybody was passed out. There's no coming back from that. Sadly, I think everyone on board was dead long before the plane hit the ground.
Perhaps it is time to put the cabin altitude altimeter right in the pilot's view instead of in the ceiling or down by a knee depending on an idiot light to warn of problems.
Or have it linked to an audible and visible warning once it drops by 10% of what it should be, with todays technology surely that can’t be too difficult. If it’s a health issue maybe it’s time they regulate two pilot operation for these type jets.
The Citation has a cabin altitude warning which activates if the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000'. A loud horn, a Master Warning Light, and a Cabin altitude or pressure annunciator light. You can not ignore all this. I flew the Citation CE-550/560 (Citation II/V) from 1983 until 1995. This looks like pilot incapacitation to me, not a pressurization issue.
Why do people assume that airplanes come with nothing but a steering wheel and a brake pedal or that all pilots are comatose, deaf, blind except for 2.5° of foveal vision, unable to swivel their eyes or necks, and as attentive to what's going on in the cockpit as Monty Python's Dead Parrot? I mean, I know some of them are, but…
As retired USAF navigator I went to the alt chamber so many times I lost count. But now as a GA pp where does that training occur on civilian side? outside of major Part 121 or 135 operations even single jet/turboprop corporate pilots can’t get that physiologic refresher easily or inexpensively.
I remember reading a report some time ago about the FAA's justification for this. It amounted to the medical risks inherent with the altitude chamber, the inability for a single person to have identical experiences in multiple sessions (thus denying them the ability to make a reliable prediction for any individual), and the belief that having the knowledge of the symptoms phenomena, and response will be adequate to meet the emergency. I guarantee the costs factored in as well.
Richard, the Citation has a cabin altitude warning system which activates if the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000'. A loud horn, a Master Warning Light, and a Cabin Altitude or Cabin Pressure annunciator light. You can not ignore all this. I flew the Citation CE-550/560 (Citation II/V) from 1983 until 1995, always with 2 pilots. This looks like pilot incapacitation to me, not a pressurization issue, but we may never know. It appears the autopilot defaulted to a heading mode after passing the airport (KISP) on a course from the last waypoint, the Calverton (CCC) VOR. The heading between the VOR and the airport was very close to a course back to Elizabethton which took the plane over DC. We may never know on this one.
The cabin altitude warning system can fail, there's no reason it can't. I find it far more likely that this would happen than none of the passengers even attempting to take control the aircraft. The F-16 pilots didn't even see the passengers moving in the cabin, so it seems likely they were all out. NTSB will probably find something, they usually do.
@@oltimer5544 No I'm not qualified on jets, nor am I an aircraft mechanic. I work in the marine industry as an engineer, so I have technically inclined, and experience has lead me to believe that anything can and will fail. That being said, there is another possibility here that we haven't brought up, which is pilot misidentification. Probably the most similar commercial accident to this is Helios flight 522, which experienced a depressurization, incapacitation of the pilots, and subsequent crash due to fuel exhaustion. In that case, the pilots misidentified the cabin altitude warning as a take-off configuration warning. They lost crucial minutes trying to troubleshoot and by then hypoxia had already began to set in, impairing their judgement, causing them to focus on what they thought was the problem and not considering the potential for other causes. I'm not familiar with the warning sounds and lights in the Citation series jets, but if it's like the 737 where the sound alarm is the as used by other warnings, then it could lead to confusion.
The passengers probably had cell phones. If they knew the pilot was in distressed they could have made a call. The plane hit so hard I am not sure we will ever know.
Its easy to miss a cabin altitude warning horn if the warning system is not working properly. My argument agains the medical event is that with the pilot slumped to the right,, at some point the passengers would have noticed. Most biz jets have internet capability and the passengers would have been able to send a message somehow.
You said the aircraft suffered fuel starvation prior to it entering a right spiraling decent. Wouldn’t it have been fuel exhaustion since it ran out of fuel? My understanding has always been that fuel starvation is when the aircraft still has fuel remaining yet for some reason it is not reaching the engine.
Would the F-16 pilots been able to see the pilot slumped over if the windows were frosted over? I'm betting on a sudden pilot medical issue since the F-16 jocks never said anything about frosted windows. So, should we allow these jets to be flown by a single pilot?
@@mtkoslowski Good question. And if it was a pilot medical issue, why didn't the passengers do anything? The NTSB has lots of "splainin to do... Heartfelt condolences to the families involved.
@@mtkoslowski I'm guessing on a warm day half hour into FL350 the windows don't freeze? I doubt the passengers would be just sitting there chilling while their plane has no pilot. For sure I would've been on that cockpit at least crying while watching my upcoming death.
The problem with this theory is that the pilot, at 69 years old still had a First Class Medical. Not exactly an easy thing to retain at that age. He had to be in excellent health. Doesn't rule it out, but certainly makes it more unlikely. But a sudden or insidious depressurization are quite a valid possibility. Hypoxia.
After so many hypoxia accidents in the last years, especially on single pilot airplanes, I am astonished that either NTSB or FAA have not required some sort of low cabin pressure alarm on pressurized aircraft. This has demonstrated to be an issue much more dangerous than a bad executed checklist.😮😮
It is required and the Citation 5 has a very good high cabin altitude alert system. Goes off at roughly 11,000 feet. It would be very difficult to ignore.
@@michaelgarrow3239 Technically that is a high carbon dioxide indicator. The backup, if I remember correctly is hydrogen ion concentration in the cerebral spinal fluid. The back up for the back up is low oxygen.
My bet is on a medical issue. If there was a decompression, the intercept jets would have noticed the jet fogged up. If it was a slow leak, the cabin altitude alarm would warn the pilot. Its a master warning and impossible to miss. So my bet is on a medical issue.
I agree with your analysis Francisco. If still conscious, you would think the adult adopted daughter would notice pilot slump. Get into the co-pilot seat, try to radio and then later motion to the interceptors. From what I have read, oxygen loss does not always mean window ice over if the cabin temp stays at consistent levels unlike the 1999 Learjet carrying golf pro Payne Stewart which had visible iced windows as seen by the interceptors. Different aircraft, different systems.
Watch cam videos and listen to people lose it when they see an accident. Now put them at 34,000 feet looking at death to themselves and their child and also the nanny. People can't even think to apply the brakes on their car when something is happening in front of them. Many couldn't handle seeing a dead guy
My theory is that they had no clue what happened in the cockpit. The door was evidently closed. The pilot died and the autopilot went on to do its " thing", until it ran out of fuel. The F-16's did not get the attention of the women in the back and that is the suspicious question. Were they asleep or were they knocked out ? Maybe they will figure out the possibility of cabin depressurization, if they find adequate tissue to analyze. Everything was in pieces, in a crater.
I find myself hoping it's a case of some sort of malfunction that caused hypoxia for everyone on board instead of just for the pilot and everyone else having to watch themselves going down. This one hurts, big time.
Since there is no bulkhead; nor door, between the cockpit area and the passenger compartment, all 4 occupants surely suffered hypoxia... they were probably all dead before the aircraft slammed into the ground.
@@ghostrider-be9ek in that situation, would there be no reaction from the pax? An F-16 flew close enough to verify that the pilot was slumped, but no pax noticed and made any sort of signal?
That's a near-universal misconception. Windows don't necessarily frost over in a depressurization or lack of pressurization event. In the Payne Stewart Learjet incident, which was a much different plane from this one, and flew at 51,000 feet-half again as high as this one-the windows *did* frost over. But in a case almost identical to this one just last September, a Cessna Citation II that flew from southern Spain all the way to northern Germany, at the same altitude as this plane, with an incapacitated pilot, and crashed into the Baltic, the windows *didn't* . Search for Citation OE-FGR for details of this incident. It just depends on many factors, whether they will or won't.
What about the fact that the F-16 pilots clearly saw the Citation pilot “slumped over to the right”? The Citation’s windows were not frosted over. Wouldn’t this be an indication of the pilot’s medical incapacitation, and NOT a loss of pressurization?
You would assume one of the 3 passangers in the back would do something and attempt to land or reach someone else, instead of just giving up and letting the plane crash
@@yeetandskeet They may not have realized until it was too late. Sounds like passenger window shades may have been closed. Easily could have been asleep, watching movies, or just assumed the flight was taking longer than expected for some reason.
Reminds me of Helios Airways Flight 522 flight crew forgot to set the pressurization to automatic. Alarms, and warnings didn't point directly at the problem, and the crew were hypoxic could not understand what was happening. Some have suggested that the windows would be fogged over if that happened like Payne Stewart in his case that was explosive decompression which caused the windows to fog. Flight 522 F-16's could see in the windows and saw a flight attendant using a portable oxygen tank sitting in the cockpit. The fuel ran out before he was able to do anything. Just because he had a class one medical cert doesn't mean he was healthy. The FAA medical certificate program has many flaws that overlook serious medical conditions that go on diagnosed. Pilots quickly learn that the less you see a doctor the better because the FAA medical is such a convoluted system it's lot easier to just avoid doctors. The actual class 1 medical is so basic and antiquated not a surprised pilots drop dead of heart attacks while in flight.
9:06 It was my understanding that since the Payne Stewart incident that the pressurization troubleshooting manual had been rewritten to *Step 1: Put on oxygen mask. Go to step 2.*
Why don’t autopilots have a requirement for some pilot input (even if nothing more than a button push) every so often, else a an alarm sounds that will wake the dead and/or automatically desced to breathable altitude? All this automation and it can’t even detect that the pilot is inop?
Trains actually have something like that, the so called dead man's switch. If the required action is not taken, the train will brake. Not sure about implementing something similar in aircrafts, though
@@emperorofthegreatunknown4394 _There are autopilots being developed for this that will navigate to the nearest airport and contact ATC._ Actually *have been* developed. Search for Garmin Autoland. It's not the autopilot, but the GPS doing this; but the end result is the same.
Sad day! O2 sensors in watches like Garmin D2 have these sensors built into them and alert you when your levels get too low as a backup. I fully agree with your assessment of checking O2 in startup, Runup, and climb.
@@igclappI’m not sure about the Garmin, but the Apple Watch checks O2 about every half hour if you use it for sleep tracking, and less often at other times, and only then you haven’t been moving much. So at least with that device, it is unlikely it would give you sufficient warning.
Windows were clear. You make no mention of this fact. Seems that a depressurization is unlikely. A fatal medical event, with those in the back having no awareness of what was happening in the cocpit, seems likely to me.
Believable up until the point where they made a 180 in NY. A pilot who flew airlines his entire life almost certainly took the time to explain to his wife how to make an emergency call / use the radios
He was just the pilot. Those where not his family. They were just passengers and I think it may have been the first time for them. It was a mother, child, and nanny. They might even have been asleep and not aware of what was unfolding up front. He was up there by himself.
@@garyprince7309 Sure but wouldn’t they have though something was up when the flight lasted 2x longer than it should have? unless they’re total foreigners they would have a general idea of how long that flight would be.
It's a near-universal misconception that you can't have lack of pressurization unless the windows frost over; but windows don't necessarily frost over in a depressurization or lack of pressurization event. In the Payne Stewart Learjet incident, which everyone is using as the model for this belief, the Learjet was a much different plane from this one, with different equipment and different failure modes, and flew at 51,000 feet-half again as high as this one, where the temperature is still lower-the windows *did* frost over. But in a case almost identical to this one just last September, a Cessna Citation II flew from southern Spain all the way to northern Germany, at the same altitude as this plane, with an incapacitated pilot, and crashed into the Baltic, and the windows *didn't* frost over . Search for Citation OE-FGR for details of this incident. It just depends on many factors, whether they will or won't. It this was medical incapacitation of the pilot alone, first you would have to have the pilot suffer complete and immediate incapacitation, and during the three minutes between when he acknowledged one call and failed to acknowledge the next; while climbing though around 28,000 feet, the altitude where pressurization failures often manifest themselves. Then you'd have to have the two adults in the back, who would have known how long the flight should be and were likely anxious to get on the ground, ignore a sweeping 180 at about the time they were expecting to land; ignore an extra hour's flight, with the sun on the other side of the plane; ignore the pilot slumped to his right; ignore F16s alongside, and firing flares; all without someone moving into the copilot seat and at least attempting to do something-likely the daughter, who had presumably been on flights in this plane before. Or, you could have failure of a single component, or a single inappropriate control setting by the pilot, causing depressurization, or more likely lack of pressurization. Occam's razor suggests the latter.
@@joe_DWilson I'm not sure they would. From my understanding, it was there first time, and it wasn't like it lasted 6 hrs. Two women with a child who knew nothing about aviation, and trusted there pilot. I think he had a heart attack, died at the controls, and the auto pilot flew until it ran out of fuel. Hence the clear windows. The interseptors reported that the pilot was slumped in his seat and the shades were pulled in the rear. They well may have just been asleep.
The thing I don’t understand with these hypoxia accidents is how the pilots didn’t notice the excessive rate of climb of their cabin altitude. If your cabin is climbing at 2000ft/min you should definitely be feeling that in your ears and a quick glance at the pressurization gauge would confirm what’s happening. Either way, hopefully the CVR can shed some light on this (if it had one.)
NO CVR was required on this airplane FAr 91.609 . In this case since this airplane could be operated single pilot under a LOA letter of agreement single pilot and special training a CVR is not required.
@@TheFalconJetDriver I don't think it works like that. The 560 was, and still is, certificated for a two pilot crew. Just because there is a special exemption for certain pilots to fly it single pilot is not going to do away with the CVR requirement. In any event, my friend has a 560 just a few serial numbers later than the accident aircraft and it came equipped with a CVR as original equipment.
The pilot knew he had a 2 year old on board and kids have issues with their ears.....I am sure, he was operating the climb, for their comfort. I really feel he died after he programmed the auto pilot. The F-16's could see him, leaning towards the right seat, not moving....not responding. The windows in the back, were closed. The passengers did not notice them and that is the suspicious part. Could they have been asleep ? or maybe, they were passed out. That would be comforting for the families, instead of suffering a spiral descent to the ground. Noting anyone wants. Seconds are horrifying eternity.
I fly this model. Before I bought it the squat switch failed during decent at FL380, the cabin dumped and went to sea level instantly. No lights or alarms, the aircraft thought it was ground. My friend did a emergency decent and got aircraft on ground safely. If the switch failed on takeoff, no warnings other than looking at cabin altitude and diff gauge. I added this to checklist at 10000ft and FL180. This failed item is not on emergency checklist.
I'm also of the opinion it was a medical issue with the pilot. If it were a cabin depressurization, the interior temperature would also drop to ambient for the flight altitude, and condensation would freeze, frosting the windows as happened with Payne Stewart's incident in 1999. The F-16 pilot could distinctly see the pilot slumped over, indicating clear windows. If this is the true scenario (medical emergency), the question remains, why did the passengers not notice it, or if they did, why did they take no action? This would tend to support a depressurization event, as they would be incapacitated as well, but in either possibility, we may never know the actual facts.
Does the Citation have a locked door separating passengers from the cockpit? In the absence of frosted windows, and so presumably conscious passengers, that's the only thing that would make sense to me.
If the pressurization or oxygen system is malfunctioning or not programmed correctly, it could just hold a much higher cabin altitude and still hold temperature inside the aircraft, leading to hypoxia, but not a frozen cabin.
@@marcoagostoni8827 No. The cabin air in a citation is turned over several times per minute. There is no potential internal source of CO generation either.
Great breakdown. My reasons are the same as yours. 1. Slow depressurization like you said, and the pilot did not catch it. 2. Rapid depressurization and he failed to put on the mask, or the mask did not work. 3. Medical emergency and the passengers did not know what to do.
The owner’s daughter was likely a frequent passenger on the plane. If the pilot only was incapacitated she would have tried to radio the tower or try to signal the fighter pilots. I’ve flown on a Citation V numerous times. There is no barrier between the pilot and the passengers so they would have seen the pilot incapacitated. We always flew with two pilots. So my belief they all suffered from hypoxia.
Was just thinking that the most likely case here is that the pressurization setting might not have been set for auto or set correctly and caused the hypoxic event. Sad loss of life that day :( I actually heard the jets scramble over my house, they were hauling I'll tell ya that. Almost sounded like a small explosion in the distance as the shockwave ripped through my area.
It's ridiculous for fighters to scramble just when it's approaching DC, why not earlier? According to news reports, the pilot stopped communicating with ATC 15 minutes into the flight. Yet this plane was able to fly all the way to LI, near the Hamptons, turn to a course heading to DC still with no communication. Why no jets then? Is NORAD a joke?
Standard IFR lost communications procedure is to continue along your route of flight to your destination if you are not in VFR conditions. We don’t know the exact conditions of the day but it could be that there was IMC present. The aircraft did not necessarily follow the other steps for lost communications procedures, but there is nothing here to indicate the aircraft was a threat to people on the ground. At most it was an aircraft that wasn’t following proper lost communications procedures. After all, the aircraft was still flying it’s filed route. It wasn’t until the aircraft failed to descend and land that ATC would have the smoking gun that this wasn’t just a loss communications issue. I also believe that NORAD was likely tracking this aircraft for quite some time beforehand, they just decided not scramble until the aircraft maneuvered towards D.C.
Yes, I agree. Why fly so long without being intercepted by the jets. Is there some kind of protocol whereby the controllers at Atlanta and New York contact NORAD and report a non responsive aircraft at FL 340? Why over the DC area? The aircraft was above the restricted airspace over DC anyway!
I do believe I read that NY Center , maybe even Washington center, did contact NORAD well before the plane turned over Long Island. After the plane made the 180 degree turn they scrambled F16's out of Atlantic City to intercept. As stated above....The plane was still following it's filed flight plan up to this point and was probably being treated like a lost communication flight by ATC. This procedure does require the pilot to squawk 7600 on his transponder though, and this should have thrown up a red flag to ATC.
@@lyleparadise2764 If the pilot was a victim of hypoxia I doubt that he would have time to set the transponder but the controllers can verify if the pilot is receiving transmissions by simply giving him a heading to fly. If the A/C flys that heading then for sure he can hear you.
@@richardmcspadden9189 And even some piston singles. And some turboprop singles will even land themselves if the pilot is incapacitated. What a time to be alive!
F-16 pilot acknowledge that he saw Citation pilot in cockpit. That mean for me, that windows on Cessna were clear from frost, what will cover them in case of depressurisation. I think this is not the thing in this case. Medical is more probable.
If I'm remembereing correctly, in the Payne Stewart crash, the windows were frozen over because of the assumed depressurization, and the intercepting jets were unable to see insice the cockpit. If that's the case in this type of event, why didn't they freeze over this time? Would that throw into the question (or perhaps help clarify,) the type of immobilization that happened to the pilot? Or is there a different type of windscreen defroster in this Citation. Not sure why, but this seems like an inconsistency that might matter.
This is almost certainly a slow pressurization leak that led to hypoxia for everyone onboard. All the evidence suggests the same thing. This is also the "best case scenario" for everyone involved because if you were conscious during an almost 40,000 ft plunge it would have been the most terrifying final moments imaginable
@@loganbobrow9333 That would only be the case in an rapid decompression where the pressure changes extremely rapidly. Slow decompression would not have the same indicators like that.
I fly a private Citation Mustang and I always make sure to tell my passengers to let me know if they ever feel light headedness and what to do if I go unconscious. Also, I do hypoxia training every now and then to feel the signs of it coming. If it were to happen to me then I would know from a mile away what was going on. Sadly a lot of pilots, no matter their skill level, don't assume the worst and don't pay close enough attention to the instruments
February of '22, my 68 yo flight instructor, who also held a Class 1, died of Suddenly. I was the last person outside of his wife to see him alive. He was one of three otherwise healthy but double-vaxxed mid-sixties friends to die in this fashion.
The newer aircrafts have automated ways to detect lack of activity in the cockpit, then prompt for response and if not automatically go to a lower altitude or even have an autoland feature. Not foolproof but worth it for a multi-million $$$ machine and the associated risks of hypoxia. Maybe the FAA could allow retrofits for older jets for it.
Really enjoy the well produced and informative videos AOPA puts together!!! Is there anyway to put an eq on the audio to get rid of the whistling. Thanks!
Look at the throttle inputs on the graph @ 2:06, does this indicate a conscious pilot? Or doe it look like he is having a hard time controlling the aircraft speed?
I thought the Class 1 Medical Certificate was only valid for 6 Calendar 📆 Months. If he took his last exam in October, it would have expired April 30, 2023. Isn't that correct? If so, he was flying on an expired medical certificate according to this report.
@@garrettboone4306 You are Wrong. It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the month the exam was conducted. Not a 3 rd. class as you state. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months.
Nope that is incorrect! It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the months the exam was conducted.. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months. the report is wrong. This pilot was flying FAR part 91 and that only required a 2nd class Medical not a First. I hope you are not a pilot if you are you need to brush up on FAR part 67.
I was once told that it is possible to have an 85% blockage and still pass a coronary stress test. Not sure if it is true but i don't see a regular class one medical exam necessarily picking up the potential of a blood clot to the brain or heart.
A sad reminder that hypoxia can creep up on you slow or fast. The early 525 and 550 Citations have somewhat clunky pressurization systems that can fail for a number of rather simple reasons. I've been flying them for about two years now and have had pressurization related issues in three separate 525/550 aircraft and three (two were at low altitude) decompressions on one single 550 type. One which was a hard fail and it resulted in an emergency descent. This most recent crash makes two pressurization related accidents in less than a year in the 550 type. Just food for thought, the Encore/ Ultra's service ceiling is FL450 and in a rapid decompression the useful consciousness is 9-15 seconds. Add to that, an emergency descent at ~6,000 FPM would still take 5+ minutes to get below 10,000' This is just more more reinforcement for my unyielding opinion that absolutely NO jet/ turboprop larger than a CJ-1/ C-90 should be flown single pilot. And not that there should be an age limit but, sorry, a 70 year old pilot (regardless of medical class) should have never been given the single pilot waiver.
@@davidcampbell8287 not necessarily. Unless part of the aircraft was missing letting outside air in, the heat provided by the bleeds/ ACM could still be contained in the cabin keeping things somewhat warm. Even with a hard pressurization system failure or open outflow valve, the heat proved by the bleeds *should* still be entering the cabin.
Why did it matter if the plane was on a heading over the FRZ. Wouldn't someone NORDO, especially after passing their destination and not squawking 7600, scramble fighters to investigate? I sure thought it would and has.
Time of useful consciousness assume an average, healthy person. At 69 years old, it’s very very possible that he was far more susceptible to hypoxia. It’s concerning that we have for-hire private jet operators running single-pilot at ages higher than allowed for Part 121.
That's how the owner, John Rumpel, was able to donate so much of his fortune to things like the NRA and Trump: BY CUTTING CORNERS, like not having a co-pilot for his 'adopted 49 year old daughter.' He will likely collect new monies for both the airplane, its crash, and his 'daughter's' life insurance policies. His grieving won't last long, IMO.
Pilot died. FMS programmed where autopilot hit waypoints. Right engine ran out of fuel first cause the right descending bank. Further tightened and steepened until contact with the ground.
Every time I go to renew my first class medical, the AME does the absolute bare minimum . Might as well not do any medical as if they aren’t going to do a in depth scan and overview of your body and health. Seriously.
It's all about the mighty dollar. They know if they did a rigorous job, most won't come back. My ame does 10-12 an hour.. Whole day.. At $175pp..2 days a week. Yes that's what's called a cash cow.
Hypoxia seems the most plausible hypothesis. The medical emergency hypothesis doesn’t make much sense, since you would expect the passengers would attempt to make some kind of intervention (assuming they could see/enter the cockpit); it would be bizarre if they just stayed in their seats without trying to help the pilot in some way!
I still think we need to not just optionally, but it should be a requirement for all Pilots to wear Oxygen Monitors, we have cheap passive ones that can even be setup via Bluetooth to Apple/Android phones and tablets etc. They can give you early warning that your Blood Oxygen level is dropping and I think this would save lots of lives.
By the time it starts dropping and warning it may be too late. The Time of useful Consciousness for FL 340 is 30 seconds or so. So, the O2 sat drop is very rapid.
@jerry kurata good point, I think it would probably depend on that unique symptoms per person thing, how quickly you are beyond help, What is hopeful is with the recent 'Human Malware' we have seen a good percentage, mainly younger people with walking Hypoxia (due to the lung damage) and walking pneumonia, a lot of people affected by human malware (2019-ncov) have not realized how sick they are, and a lot of them have oxygen levels showing 30%,50%,70% ranges give or take (and sadly have been good part of those who end up in ICU) so while oxygen monitor won't save everyone I think it is an extra tool in the tool Luggage carry-on bag.... (ha)
@jerry kurata Additional thought on idea is the data read out can or is saved (and might be able to also be backed up to black boxes down the road) so even if the oxygen detector did not save someone, you have extra record of the pilots abilities. Too many times pilots are blamed for bad choices, yet so many issues with Cockpit Fume events (from small planes all the way to Boeing or Airbus) still unaddressed, and the fact that atmosphere contamination doesn't act like a binary switch (either awake or passed out) there is a scale of wakefulness, and I.M.O. even "minor" fume events have to somewhat impact the "thinking" of a pilot, and thus events outside the pilots control can cause the mistakes in some cases. but until we have better monitoring and actually fix some of the Cockpit fume events (number 1 is Boeing / airbus planes near end of journey having fume events happen as they descend around 10,000ft Alt, over and over again for many years now, and events still not solved. Not every fume event actually has a smell or smoke either so, so many things right now accepted that can cause pilots to have risk to be impaired and risk being fully blamed for "pilot errors" when we don't have a system in place to monitor quality of air, actual oxygen levels, and even recording other substances in the Cockpit air to some sort of black box. Lack of a system to help clear pilots names, and right now Pilots are easy to blame for so many accidents. When again, if something is slowly even just barely impairing them and it is not fair to always blame a pilot when we don't have the recording of Cockpit atmospheric conditions.
Yep...Pressurisation failure on climb out would not necessarily mean condensation, (be it light or serious), or ice on the inside, since ice would come at altitude. Looks like everything comes down to last ATC conversations acknowledged. The FDR will tell the true picture.... Payne Stewart's Learjet flight was intercepted because there was no reply back to ATC...so exactly the same as this. Shows how on the ball the ATC people were in this instance. Same end result. A high speed spiral descent into terrain once the fuel was exhausted. Dead people and a big hole in the ground..... Should there be a VCR it will tell us if the pilot completed the checklists as he should have done. Despite being a single pilot, as a professional with thousands of hours in his book, he would / should have 'voiced' the checklists as he went through them.... it will be interesting to see if this evidence becomes available....if the VCR survived the impact. James Hennighan Yorkshire, England
@@ChazToz His justification for why that *has* to be the case is weak though. The windows wouldn’t necessarily frost over in the case of depressurization
How did nobody raise the alarm sooner to an unresponsive airplane flying for a couple hours up the East Coast toward NYC and then back toward DC on an IFR flight plan. The fact the fighters didn't intercept it until it passed over the DC area is a little concerning.
Single pilot operations was a factor. Always have a copilot in jets etc… too many young pilots need to build experience. Citation should have warning when the cabin reaches 10000 feet and the masks drop at 14000 feet (standard in jets). Above 35000 pilot is required to wear masks (never done). Rest in peace and prayers to all family
Not necessarily. A sudden depressurization could cause fog to form in the cabin air due to sudden cooling below the dew point due to adiabatic expansion, and some of that moisture could attach to the window panes, they being the coldest part of the airplane even with normal pressurization. But unless the a/c pack has failed there will be warm dry air flowing into the cabin which will clear up the suspended fog and dry up the windows. If the pressurization pack fails to supply air to the cabin, then the cabin temp will drop, the windows initially being the coldest will serve as condensation spots for water vapor, which will seep out of the insulation blankets and a cumulate in the stagnant cabin air. The blankets are as cold as the fuselage skin on one side and Initially almost as warm as the cabin on the other side and are often damp from condensation of vapor from cabin occupants, food, humid air at lower altitudes, etc. The blanket condensation may freeze on the fuselage skin (interior) at high altitude then thaw on descent and may not get a chance to evaporate before the next cycle and the blanket may not dry out. But if you button up the airplane up on the ground on a hot day you might see rain on the inside of the windows when inside humidity reaches 100%. On older airplanes with not so well-fitting blankets, enough of the frozen condensation can thaw when descending that you can get "rain on the plane" during approach.
Regarding this pilot’s FAA medical, I have been told by a reliable source, that he had and passed, a new 1st class medical 5 days before this flight. He is said to have been a healthy and fit person.
@@garymartin9777 I agree. I’ve had about 80 1st class medical and many EKG’s. These exams are NOT a thorough check that you’d have your GP do. Agree, anyone anytime could keel over from xxx (heart attack, stroke, aneurysm etc.
Really good presentation. Just an FYI….I lived in East TN and it’s pronounced Eliz-ah-bethton - not Eliz-Beth-ton. Not a big deal but just thought I’d mention it!
Almost zero chance of that since no passengers were seen by any of the F-16 pilots. If the passengers had been conscience they would have been seen from the point when the airplane turned around in new jersey, i.e. they would have noticed.
@@davidcampbell8287 David, I have viewed all the NBC News reports on this that I could find. All mentioned the pilot slumped over to the right, but none mentioned the passengers or window shades. If you've actually seen this in a NBC News report, could you please share the time and date so I can confirm this? Thanks!
An aircraft capable of flight up to 40,000 must have a cabin altitude warning system. How often is the sensor it relies on tested/calibrated to see if it can still register altitudes above 8000 feet? If it reads up to 9000, but then sticks, you might never notice it in normal operation. Then the first time you forget to set up the cabin pressurization system properly, it kills you without a warning.
Very good question. The jet pilot guys I know are now talking about getting independent pressure backup alarms. Even Garmin makes a watch that can be set up to give barometric altitude alerts.
Maybe time for new debates on mandatory O2 mask usage for a single pilot or one pilot in a crew above 30k feet. or some level. Too easy not to die from loss of pressurization.
People say the pain looked like it was flying back to Elizabethton, TN (0A9). But if you look at the flight path closely, the pilot likely programmed in the final few waypoints as the intersection of SARDI then to Calverton (CCC) and then to the final airport of Long Island (KISP). The arch you see at the end is just the autopilot flying the arch between the different legs. So if you draw a direct line from CCC to KISP, that will show you the exact line the aircraft flew. Not back to Elizabethon TN, it just happened to look like it was flying back.
Why 55 in particular? Is there some type of statistical evidence that shows a sharp increase of medical related incidents at 56? Are you talking about all aviation, or just part 135/121?
@@VictoryAviation why any number in particular for anything? It’s just dumb. If you can prove competency you should be allowed to do whatever. Statistics don’t exist. Some can, some can’t. Test them and let them.
@@denysolleik9896 Soooo, maybe something like a special medical that they would have to take every year? Or maybe a flying test that would be required?
First class medical is no guarantee of even near term health. I speak from personal experience; I passed a 1st class medical and yet had a heart attack at the gym 3 months later.
And That is proof why it is a good idea to stay away from gyms this one over stressed your heart! I flew with a guy that was slim 35 years old ran five miles a day before work at the airport. after his run he came in sat in his desk chair for a cool down be fore his usual shower. I walked out to hangar to put the Jepps in the airplane after the the update party was over. walked into the office and he was gone.
Airline pilots becoming incapacitated in flight is not unknown. In my view the entire medical testing is a waste of time with the exception that blind or deaf pilots shouldn’t be allowed.
A friend of mine who was the epitome of fitness and Chief pilot of a 135 operation keeled over and died while he was on his daily run.
@@LimeyTX The medical checks have saved many lives by letting people know they have early warning signs, and ensuring the conditions are treated or managed. Along with blindness and deafness, psychiatric conditions must also be considered. IMO the best solution is to have a copilot or at least a competent adult who can operate the radio and follow instructions. Such passengers have landed planes many times, including a woman in her 80s a few years ago. Such a tragedy that the PPL holder owner of the plane didn't hire a copilot.
@@islandlife756
I agree. I was being a little facetious. But the sad fact is that no matter how strict the rules are people are still going to have unexpected incidents. My point is not that pilots shouldn’t have regular checks. My point is that the checks are no guarantee at all that the pilot is good for another 12 months.
I suspect that if you examined enough data you would find incidences where a pilot died on the way home from the AME.
There are no guarantees. Period. Anyone can suffer from an immediately crippling medical emergency at any time, regardless of their otherwise apparently good physical health. For example, there are zero warning signs for aortic or cerebral aneurysms. One moment you're fine, the next moment the pipe bursts and you are down for the count. It can happen to anyone.
I find it unacceptable that passenger jet manufacturers are not required to provide a loud, unmissable alarm system that will fire up the moment O2 levels decrease beyond a certain minimum, with perhaps a warning stage that would engage the moment the derivative of the O2 concentration becomes negative after 8 or 9,000 ft altitude.
It's inconveivable, really.
You wouldn't even need an oxygen sensor for that, a simple barometer would suffice. I'm sure those already exist as the cabin pressure sensors, the issue in past events like the Olympus Airlines flight seems to be that flightcrew misinterpreted the Master Caution as some other hydraulic issue, or they correctly identified the issue but didn't put their oxygen masks on in time.
In Boeing or Airbus Aircraft you will get a master caution, when the cabin altitude gets above 10.000ft!
I guess it would be no problem to install that in bizzjets as well.
These planes cost several million dollar so it would be no problem to mandatory install that system for maybe 50.000$.
@@Breenild Exactly. Something better that a caution light on the panel is needed so that cases such as that of the Helios 737 would never happen again.
On a somewhat related note, and being a pilot myself (C185 non comercial), I cannot fathom how is it that there is not an "AMBIENT" cockpit-wide indicator of the current (and very critical) state of the different possible AUTO modes (autopilot, autothrottle, and specifics, such as Holding-Altitude, Holding-Speed, etc.)...perhaps through an overall noticeable (though subtler than a warning, of course) coloring of the instrument panelt backlighting (or a simulated equivalent with the newer digital screens), perhaps a change from ambar tones to green tones to blue tones, and so on.
@@ernestoherreralegorreta137 the Helios case is different. The crew had all the warnings... But didn't handle the condition.
I have been in the chamber and experienced Hypoxia as part of military training and also while in an unpressurized cargo plane at 14,000ft. I was fine in the cargo flight until I stood up, waked to the back of the plane and returned to my seat. I was unaware I was suffering hypoxia onset (didn't think it was possible at that altitude), but the alert plane captain noticed and brought me an oxygen bottle.
Under simulated 35,000ft elevation it is amazing how quickly you begin to suffer, to watch fellow students lose awareness and how they react. The more active you are, the quicker you suffer. Each student had a slightly different task, sorting playing cards, touching your nose with an index finger, repeatedly signing your name, etc. The student trying to touch his nose pushed instructors back when tried to replace his mask. He was totally focused and they had to hold his arm to get his mask on and for him to recover.
RIP to those lost and prayers to family and friends grieving this tragic loss of life.
I am a physician. Passing a Class 1 medical does not make a medical emergency unlikely.
Agree, Don. I'm a retired EMT, studied nursing, armchair taildragger pilot. Though unlikely, I was wondering about fentanyl poisoning.
Thank you Don_and_his_stationair. As people have short memories but this does make the news - not front page. I rememeber an airline pilot who had a heart atttack at the controls, he didn't make it. The FO landed. The 1st class medical has stricter standards than the 2nd or 3rd. This pilot had his attack a month after the exam. The AME does what the checklist calls out. Do they add coronary angiograms too from now on? Yet still, it can happen. A friend of mine lost her dad, airline capt, he was having chest pains at home and went into the ER. He had a full attack there in the ER. They did all they could, he didn't make it.
Very true. An incapacitating medical emergency can occur to anyone, anywhere, at any time, regardless of their general physical health.
@@nancychace8619 Why the hell would you go straight to that? That's an absolutely ridiculous leap to make.
@@chuckschillingvideos If you go back and read through the thread, you'll find I did not go straight to this originally. I agreed that hypoxia was the most likely cause. That being said, I offered fentanyl poisoning as a possibility b/c it is an all too common and serious problem in our country. It crosses all social boundaries including those of economic wealth. This was the only other thing I could think of if not hypoxia. How is it that there was no attempt by any of the adult passengers to even communicate on the radio? Seems possible they were incapacitated. Drugs are pouring into our country at an alarming rate. Perhaps this problem is not well understood and underestimated by those whose lives have not been directly touched by it. If you are one of the folks who fall into that category, you are lucky. But for a vast majority, this is a serious issue that has been taking many lives. Pilots are human. We are subject to the same pitfalls as anyone. There is also a lot of garbage that goes on under the radar in the medical community.
The bottom line is it's important to find out what happened, face it honestly whatever it was, learn from it as best we can and hope the family and friends can have genuine closure. Doesn't happen for anyone who can't face the truth, whatever it may be in any circumstance, not just this one. This is why I was asking about the possibility of testing tissue samples for O2 content, or drugs or alcohol. It happens.
Last year in September a very similar accident happened when a German entrepreneur intended to fly his Austrian registered Cessna Citation II from Spain to Germany (together with parts of his family and friends), experiencing an apparent loss in cabin pressure (last thing he reported to ATC was a problem with the pressurization) leading to everybody on board becoming hypoxic. The plane was intercepted by different fighters as it crossed Europe (with the fighter pilots reporting they saw a slumped over pilot) and eventually plunged into the Baltic Sea when it ran out of fuel. I am not saying the above accident was also hypoxia-induced, but the similarities are apparent. Both are very tragic events, RIP to the victims.
So clearly losing cabin altitude does not always equal windows being frosted over on the inside.
These two accidents may be the death knell for Citation single pilot ops.
@@lbowsk I think the cause is certain design choices or a defective component
@@lbowsk Was the Payne Stewart accident the death knell for Learjet two pilot ops?
Wow. Even reports a pressurization problem and STILL allows a crash and burn.
I don’t believe that the plane was headed back to Elizabethton. It appears that the autopilot turned the plane to approach heading and held it until they ran out of gas. It just happened to be somewhat toward Elizabethton, but just a coincidence.
Too coincidental. A lot of pilots will put their departure point as the last point when they load their flight plan in the auto pilot. That seems very possible here.
@@richardmcspadden9189 Not too coincidental at all. The last leg of the flight plan was CCC to KISP (253 degrees). The course from KISP to Elizabethton is about 250 degrees. When the autopilot hits the last waypoint and doesn't know where to go they fly the last heading or go to roll mode which is similar. No one puts their departure point as the last waypoint or you will be getting nuisance fuel warnings from the fms for the whole flight unless you have enough to return.
@FunFacts , While I initially had the same thought, I think it's actually just proceeding direct Elizabethton. If you project outward the final heading before the spiral, the track crosses directly over Elizabethan airport. Although the plane did indeed complete at least some sort of approach procedure for Islip Airport, the track does not heading and flight path does not line up with the runway at Islip, though it is somewhat close.
@@jonasasplund1423 agreed
I have over 25K hours, military pilot, retired airline pilot etc etc...I have never put my dep airport as the last point in any FMS I have programmed unless it was the final destination on a round robin flight...just sayin. I agree with the concept it ended up on the final approach heading to ILS 24 at KISP, then at the end of the approach defaulted into heading hold...anyone care to guess what the final approach course is at KISP...239 degrees
Nice job, Rich. It's really nice to see AOPA getting these videos out quickly after an incident. It show engagement with members and answers some questions a lot of us have. I'm trying to learn more everyday. Thanks.
With all the speculation I’ve seen all over about what happened with this flight, it’s so nice to have this calm and informed report
Thanks for watching!
And thank goodness for it!
I wish people would stop saying the aircraft flew over the White House or that it flew over the US Capitol. It did neither. The aircraft passed well north of both of those buildings. I also wish people would stop saying that the aircraft's heading out of ISP was a heading for those buildings. It was not. The heading after ISP was precisely the heading of the CCC-ISP leg. It seems clear the autopilot flew the aircraft to the end of the flight plan and then continued the last used heading.
The video title states "Nation's Capital", not "Capitol," implying the jet flew over Washington D.C., not the Capitol building itself.
Not only that, it was at an altitude that, while it'll trigger military action, invariably it's merely an intercept and attempt communications.
Wish in one hand and take a shit in the other hand and see which one gets filled first.
@@kellanbradshaw461 he is probably not referring to this video but to mainstream media
I believe you are spot on. Very unfortunate that this happened. I always keep a close eye on my cabin pressurization to hope this would never happen on a flight of mine.
Thanks for watching, Steveo.
Steveo!
Good advice on the altitude chamber. I did that at Joint Base Andrews in the early 90s. We went as a group prior to flying mountain wave in Petersburg WVA. It was an eye opener.
I remember during one of my medical exams many years ago back in Poland I had to go through low pressure chamber/cabin training/assessment. During the “ascent” temperature drops to below dew point and fog develops in the chamber. Few seconds later disappears. Almost as if you were climbing through the clouds.
Does the temperature drop, or does the pressure decrease move the dew point through a fairly-well controlled temperature in the chamber?
@@williamstrachan Pressure decrease causes the temperature to drop. I remember it got pretty cold inside.
@@marcinp1-c5e No, cold outside temperatures makes the temperature drop. If it were balmy at 30k feet, it would be equally balmy inside an unpressurized aircraft but the fact is the higher the altitude, the colder the temperature.
@@chuckschillingvideos Don’t forget that low pressure chamber is located at an altitude close to sea level. Inside a building. Stable temperature around it. When you pump the air out of that chamber it causes the temperature inside that chamber to drop at what rate? 2 deg C per 1000ft. The same happens inside unpressurized airplane, glider, balloon… When you climb it will get colder inside the cabin.
This is essentially why we have Air Conditioning. All about the pressure! 👍🏻
I simulated the flight on X-Plane 12 using a G1000 equipped Phenom 300 bizjet. The FMS was programmed with the filed flight plan, which terminated at Long Island airport (KISP) after a final waypoint at Calverton VOR (CCC), which is the initial approach fix for the ILS RWY 24 approach. In normal operation, the pilot would have activated the approach after receiving clearance from ATC, causing the aircraft to fly an intercept for the ILS localiser. However since this did not happen, the aircraft turned before CCC to intercept the track from CCC to KISP, overflew KISP, and then continued to fly in GPS NAV mode (with crosswind compensation) away from KISP along the great circle course that joins CCC and KISP, with an initial course of 251 deg. magnetic (note that the course reported by FlightRadar24 is 239 deg. true which is approx 252 magnetic). This took it to a point 8 nm SSE of Montebello VOR (MOL), which is very close (I think within a mile or two) of the point where N611VG ran out of fuel and began to turn to the right immediately before crashing. May the pilot and passengers rest in peace; condolences to their families.
Well said. I'm still on the fence about NAV vs. HDG, because NAV requires a magenta line and there was no waypoint to proceed to. But the argument that it would be unlikely to fly a straight track for several hundred miles in HDG mode is powerful, too.
Colonel McSpadden,
Thank you for this video and your expert analysis. A terrible tragedy.
Paul (in MA)
One pilot or two pilots are not a big factor in pressurization failures like this. This crash was one pilot, the Learjet crash with the golfer was two, pilots, and an Olympus Airlines B737 crash was with two pilots.
Pilots are trained to recognize hypoxia and yet the pilots in these incidents did not put on oxygen masks. Oxygen level can be monitored by sensor so it would not be a stretch for the aircraft auto-pilot to descend the plane to breathable altitude. No descent is no return for pilots and passengers.
Thanks Capt. Obvious.
One of he fighter pilots stated he could see the pilot sitting in the left seat and slumped to the right. Unfortunately....it wasn't a pressurisation failure 😢
@@bendietrees How do you reach that conclusion?
@@bendietrees What would the fighter pilot have seen if it was a pressurization failure?
As a Captain on many Boeings for 2 decades I had a standard check of cabin altitude, rate of climb/descent, and diff. at 20,000 ft on the way up and on the way down. This was not required by SOP's but made good sense to me.
ATC lost voice communications approximately 15 minutes after checking with Bristol TN radar they issued an IFR clearance. Cleared as Filed.. He was handed off to Atlanta Air Traffic Center ATZ he check in with ATZ they issued a clearance to FL240 then FL340 Some time after he read back the clearance and set 34,000 in the altitude select window,
I feel he suffered from Hypoxic Hypoxia as did the others on board. My guess is that the Bleed Valves where not turned on prior to take off or a pressurization failure occurred.
His altitude was later amended by Atlanta to FL330 before entering Washington Center airspace because of traffic. This change was never acknowledged by the pilot. So whatever happened , happened before he reached FL340
Would such an experienced pilot not check the bleed valves ? I doubt. He was a commercial pilot as he flew for Southwest ; they do nothing without a check list and it would be on it. I don't see that man forgetting it, but I see him having a heart attack and dying. The autopilot would have done its "thing" until the plane ran out of fuel .
@@linanicolia1363I agree with you.
Thank you. Info and perspective I wanted. You cut right to the chase. No music and general blather. Very appreciated. You are an articulate speaker. Looking forward to more of your content and your viewers comments too.
Thank you.
If the passengers were not seen by the intercepting F-16s, this could perhaps indicate a pressurization problem, as all on board would have lost consciousness. If someone had been conscious during the flight, it is likely they would have seen the pilot slumped over and might have used the VHF to ask for help (there were two other adults on board). After all the flight lasted way longer than expected with no door between the flight deck and the passenger cabin. Too soon to tell exact,y what happened. What a sad and tragic circumstance.
Oh yeah I forgot the whole not having a door between the flight deck and the cabin thing
The windows weren't opaque or frosted over, so it wasn't a pressurization issue
@stevenwhitcomb9668 This is not necessarily so. They were frosted during the Payne Stewart accident, they were not during the Helios accident. Too soon to know just what happened, too soon to discard any possibility.
Earlier report indicated the window shades were closed when it was intercepted. When I flew charter it was quite common for passengers to nap.
I also think it was depressurization, but a slow depressurization. Everyone got sleepy as the plane went up until everybody was passed out. There's no coming back from that. Sadly, I think everyone on board was dead long before the plane hit the ground.
Superb early analysis. Thank you for your efforts Richard and AOPA. Supremely valuable insights.
Perhaps it is time to put the cabin altitude altimeter right in the pilot's view instead of in the ceiling or down by a knee depending on an idiot light to warn of problems.
And some sort of a more assertive aural caution or warning regarding cabin pressure decrease.
Or have it linked to an audible and visible warning once it drops by 10% of what it should be, with todays technology surely that can’t be too difficult. If it’s a health issue maybe it’s time they regulate two pilot operation for these type jets.
The Citation has a cabin altitude warning which activates if the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000'. A loud horn, a Master Warning Light, and a Cabin altitude or pressure annunciator light. You can not ignore all this. I flew the Citation CE-550/560 (Citation II/V) from 1983 until 1995. This looks like pilot incapacitation to me, not a pressurization issue.
Why do people assume that airplanes come with nothing but a steering wheel and a brake pedal or that all pilots are comatose, deaf, blind except for 2.5° of foveal vision, unable to swivel their eyes or necks, and as attentive to what's going on in the cockpit as Monty Python's Dead Parrot? I mean, I know some of them are, but…
I wasn't expecting you guys to cover this so quickly! Hope for something more in depth once the final report is released
As retired USAF navigator I went to the alt chamber so many times I lost count. But now as a GA pp where does that training occur on civilian side? outside of major Part 121 or 135 operations even single jet/turboprop corporate pilots can’t get that physiologic refresher easily or inexpensively.
The FAA puts on hypoxia training at Sun N Fun every year which includes the chamber
FAA has a chamber in Oklahoma City available for all pilots. It is also free training so it's just a matter of getting there.
I remember reading a report some time ago about the FAA's justification for this. It amounted to the medical risks inherent with the altitude chamber, the inability for a single person to have identical experiences in multiple sessions (thus denying them the ability to make a reliable prediction for any individual), and the belief that having the knowledge of the symptoms phenomena, and response will be adequate to meet the emergency. I guarantee the costs factored in as well.
We did as part of the Coast Guard Aux training. Pretty eye opening.
Richard, the Citation has a cabin altitude warning system which activates if the cabin altitude exceeds 10,000'. A loud horn, a Master Warning Light, and a Cabin Altitude or Cabin Pressure annunciator light. You can not ignore all this. I flew the Citation CE-550/560 (Citation II/V) from 1983 until 1995, always with 2 pilots. This looks like pilot incapacitation to me, not a pressurization issue, but we may never know. It appears the autopilot defaulted to a heading mode after passing the airport (KISP) on a course from the last waypoint, the Calverton (CCC) VOR. The heading between the VOR and the airport was very close to a course back to Elizabethton which took the plane over DC. We may never know on this one.
The cabin altitude warning system can fail, there's no reason it can't. I find it far more likely that this would happen than none of the passengers even attempting to take control the aircraft. The F-16 pilots didn't even see the passengers moving in the cabin, so it seems likely they were all out. NTSB will probably find something, they usually do.
@@_lime. Possible, but not as likely as pilot incapacitation, IMO. Are you a pilot (jets) or certified mechanic, by any chance?
@@oltimer5544 No I'm not qualified on jets, nor am I an aircraft mechanic. I work in the marine industry as an engineer, so I have technically inclined, and experience has lead me to believe that anything can and will fail.
That being said, there is another possibility here that we haven't brought up, which is pilot misidentification. Probably the most similar commercial accident to this is Helios flight 522, which experienced a depressurization, incapacitation of the pilots, and subsequent crash due to fuel exhaustion. In that case, the pilots misidentified the cabin altitude warning as a take-off configuration warning. They lost crucial minutes trying to troubleshoot and by then hypoxia had already began to set in, impairing their judgement, causing them to focus on what they thought was the problem and not considering the potential for other causes.
I'm not familiar with the warning sounds and lights in the Citation series jets, but if it's like the 737 where the sound alarm is the as used by other warnings, then it could lead to confusion.
The passengers probably had cell phones. If they knew the pilot was in distressed they could have made a call. The plane hit so hard I am not sure we will ever know.
Its easy to miss a cabin altitude warning horn if the warning system is not working properly. My argument agains the medical event is that with the pilot slumped to the right,, at some point the passengers would have noticed. Most biz jets have internet capability and the passengers would have been able to send a message somehow.
Great initial analysis. Thanks for sharing.
You said the aircraft suffered fuel starvation prior to it entering a right spiraling decent. Wouldn’t it have been fuel exhaustion since it ran out of fuel? My understanding has always been that fuel starvation is when the aircraft still has fuel remaining yet for some reason it is not reaching the engine.
You are correct. Misspeak on my part. Thank you.
Would the F-16 pilots been able to see the pilot slumped over if the windows were frosted over? I'm betting on a sudden pilot medical issue since the F-16 jocks never said anything about frosted windows. So, should we allow these jets to be flown by a single pilot?
Perhaps the cockpit windows would not have been frosted over if death was sudden from the hypoxia?
@@mtkoslowski Good question. And if it was a pilot medical issue, why didn't the passengers do anything? The NTSB has lots of "splainin to do... Heartfelt condolences to the families involved.
@@mtkoslowski I'm guessing on a warm day half hour into FL350 the windows don't freeze? I doubt the passengers would be just sitting there chilling while their plane has no pilot. For sure I would've been on that cockpit at least crying while watching my upcoming death.
@@h.martinez
🤣 Not a pilot are you?
The problem with this theory is that the pilot, at 69 years old still had a First Class Medical. Not exactly an easy thing to retain at that age. He had to be in excellent health. Doesn't rule it out, but certainly makes it more unlikely. But a sudden or insidious depressurization are quite a valid possibility. Hypoxia.
After so many hypoxia accidents in the last years, especially on single pilot airplanes, I am astonished that either NTSB or FAA have not required some sort of low cabin pressure alarm on pressurized aircraft.
This has demonstrated to be an issue much more dangerous than a bad executed checklist.😮😮
Many private jets nowadays have low pressure warnings. Not sure why it's not required though.
It is required and the Citation 5 has a very good high cabin altitude alert system. Goes off at roughly 11,000 feet. It would be very difficult to ignore.
Um,,, your body is equipped with a low oxygen indicator.
To test just hold your breath..
😡
@@michaelgarrow3239 Standby. I'm attempting to override my LOI right now....🤢
@@michaelgarrow3239 Technically that is a high carbon dioxide indicator. The backup, if I remember correctly is hydrogen ion concentration in the cerebral spinal fluid. The back up for the back up is low oxygen.
Please do more of accident case study. That is your top videos. You need to do more of that. We want more of the accident case study videos.
My bet is on a medical issue. If there was a decompression, the intercept jets would have noticed the jet fogged up. If it was a slow leak, the cabin altitude alarm would warn the pilot. Its a master warning and impossible to miss. So my bet is on a medical issue.
I agree with your analysis Francisco. If still conscious, you would think the adult adopted daughter would notice pilot slump. Get into the co-pilot seat, try to radio and then later motion to the interceptors. From what I have read, oxygen loss does not always mean window ice over if the cabin temp stays at consistent levels unlike the 1999 Learjet carrying golf pro Payne Stewart which had visible iced windows as seen by the interceptors. Different aircraft, different systems.
Watch cam videos and listen to people lose it when they see an accident. Now put them at 34,000 feet looking at death to themselves and their child and also the nanny. People can't even think to apply the brakes on their car when something is happening in front of them. Many couldn't handle seeing a dead guy
Really good analysis! It is surprising that the passengers didn't appear to intervene.. to me, that reinforces the slow depressurization theory.
My theory is that they had no clue what happened in the cockpit. The door was evidently closed. The pilot died and the autopilot went on to do its " thing", until it ran out of fuel. The F-16's did not get the attention of the women in the back and that is the suspicious question. Were they asleep or were they knocked out ? Maybe they will figure out the possibility of cabin depressurization, if they find adequate tissue to analyze. Everything was in pieces, in a crater.
Dumb question but why is incapacitation so fast at over 40k feet? I mean you can hold your breathe for a couple minutes so why would this be different
I'm pretty sure the difference in pressure would force the air out of your lungs. It might be too painful to hold your breath.
I find myself hoping it's a case of some sort of malfunction that caused hypoxia for everyone on board instead of just for the pilot and everyone else having to watch themselves going down. This one hurts, big time.
Me too man. Simply terrible.
Since there is no bulkhead; nor door, between the cockpit area and the passenger compartment, all 4 occupants surely suffered hypoxia... they were probably all dead before the aircraft slammed into the ground.
@@DonVideoGuy007 thats assunming the pilot was NOT the only one incapacitated - what happens if the pilot has a stroke?
@@ghostrider-be9ek in that situation, would there be no reaction from the pax? An F-16 flew close enough to verify that the pilot was slumped, but no pax noticed and made any sort of signal?
@@williamstrachan pax were prob sleeping or on their ipads , window shades down
Would'nt ice form on the inside if the pressure was an issue?
That's a near-universal misconception. Windows don't necessarily frost over in a depressurization or lack of pressurization event. In the Payne Stewart Learjet incident, which was a much different plane from this one, and flew at 51,000 feet-half again as high as this one-the windows *did* frost over. But in a case almost identical to this one just last September, a Cessna Citation II that flew from southern Spain all the way to northern Germany, at the same altitude as this plane, with an incapacitated pilot, and crashed into the Baltic, the windows *didn't* . Search for Citation OE-FGR for details of this incident. It just depends on many factors, whether they will or won't.
What about the fact that the F-16 pilots clearly saw the Citation pilot “slumped over to the right”? The Citation’s windows were not frosted over. Wouldn’t this be an indication of the pilot’s medical incapacitation, and NOT a loss of pressurization?
Possibly. Depends on a few factors. We haven’t heard reports of what the windows looked like.
Not always. Some days you leave a contrail, some days you don't.
You would assume one of the 3 passangers in the back would do something and attempt to land or reach someone else, instead of just giving up and letting the plane crash
@@yeetandskeet They may not have realized until it was too late. Sounds like passenger window shades may have been closed. Easily could have been asleep, watching movies, or just assumed the flight was taking longer than expected for some reason.
@@richardmcspadden9189 you have heard from the F16 pilots stating pilot was slumped over the the left. So, window condition was not fgged up.
Reminds me of Helios Airways Flight 522 flight crew forgot to set the pressurization to automatic. Alarms, and warnings didn't point directly at the problem, and the crew were hypoxic could not understand what was happening. Some have suggested that the windows would be fogged over if that happened like Payne Stewart in his case that was explosive decompression which caused the windows to fog. Flight 522 F-16's could see in the windows and saw a flight attendant using a portable oxygen tank sitting in the cockpit. The fuel ran out before he was able to do anything. Just because he had a class one medical cert doesn't mean he was healthy. The FAA medical certificate program has many flaws that overlook serious medical conditions that go on diagnosed. Pilots quickly learn that the less you see a doctor the better because the FAA medical is such a convoluted system it's lot easier to just avoid doctors. The actual class 1 medical is so basic and antiquated not a surprised pilots drop dead of heart attacks while in flight.
Thank you for the excellent discussion. Question: there is no alarm/light to warn the pilots that pressurization is not functioning as expected ?
Yes there is. They are more robust and reliable in newer aircraft.
@@richardmcspadden9189 And this aircraft; at 32+ years old, was very far from being a "newer aircraft".
@@richardmcspadden9189 What, exactly, is more robust and reliable?
If he lost the cabin, wouldn't the interior windows be iced over?
Exactly what I was wondering. The Payne Stewart Lear experienced that.
That seems very probable.
It all depends on the plane and conditions. In general the Cessna isn't likely to ice over because of the equipment on board.
I've been told that it only ices over if the depressurization is rapid and total. Slow loss of pressurization doesn't show it.
Why would the windows be iced over?
9:06 It was my understanding that since the Payne Stewart incident that the pressurization troubleshooting manual had been rewritten to
*Step 1: Put on oxygen mask. Go to step 2.*
Why don’t autopilots have a requirement for some pilot input (even if nothing more than a button push) every so often, else a an alarm sounds that will wake the dead and/or automatically desced to breathable altitude? All this automation and it can’t even detect that the pilot is inop?
Trains actually have something like that, the so called dead man's switch. If the required action is not taken, the train will brake. Not sure about implementing something similar in aircrafts, though
I would pay a lot of money for an alarm that can wake the dead. 😁🧟♂️⏰
Commercial flights need clearance from air traffic control to change altiture, for traffic separation.
There are autopilots being developed for this that will navigate to the nearest airport and contact ATC.
@@emperorofthegreatunknown4394 _There are autopilots being developed for this that will navigate to the nearest airport and contact ATC._
Actually *have been* developed. Search for Garmin Autoland. It's not the autopilot, but the GPS doing this; but the end result is the same.
Sad day! O2 sensors in watches like Garmin D2 have these sensors built into them and alert you when your levels get too low as a backup. I fully agree with your assessment of checking O2 in startup, Runup, and climb.
How many seconds would it take the O2 sensor to notice a dangerous drop in blood O2 levels after a depressurisation event?
@@igclappI’m not sure about the Garmin, but the Apple Watch checks O2 about every half hour if you use it for sleep tracking, and less often at other times, and only then you haven’t been moving much. So at least with that device, it is unlikely it would give you sufficient warning.
Salute Sir. thank you for your balanced insight.
Thank you for watching and commenting.
Windows were clear. You make no mention of this fact. Seems that a depressurization is unlikely. A fatal medical event, with those in the back having no awareness of what was happening in the cocpit, seems likely to me.
Believable up until the point where they made a 180 in NY. A pilot who flew airlines his entire life almost certainly took the time to explain to his wife how to make an emergency call / use the radios
He was just the pilot. Those where not his family. They were just passengers and I think it may have been the first time for them. It was a mother, child, and nanny. They might even have been asleep and not aware of what was unfolding up front. He was up there by himself.
@@garyprince7309 Sure but wouldn’t they have though something was up when the flight lasted 2x longer than it should have? unless they’re total foreigners they would have a general idea of how long that flight would be.
It's a near-universal misconception that you can't have lack of pressurization unless the windows frost over; but windows don't necessarily frost over in a depressurization or lack of pressurization event. In the Payne Stewart Learjet incident, which everyone is using as the model for this belief, the Learjet was a much different plane from this one, with different equipment and different failure modes, and flew at 51,000 feet-half again as high as this one, where the temperature is still lower-the windows *did* frost over. But in a case almost identical to this one just last September, a Cessna Citation II flew from southern Spain all the way to northern Germany, at the same altitude as this plane, with an incapacitated pilot, and crashed into the Baltic, and the windows *didn't* frost over . Search for Citation OE-FGR for details of this incident. It just depends on many factors, whether they will or won't.
It this was medical incapacitation of the pilot alone, first you would have to have the pilot suffer complete and immediate incapacitation, and during the three minutes between when he acknowledged one call and failed to acknowledge the next; while climbing though around 28,000 feet, the altitude where pressurization failures often manifest themselves. Then you'd have to have the two adults in the back, who would have known how long the flight should be and were likely anxious to get on the ground, ignore a sweeping 180 at about the time they were expecting to land; ignore an extra hour's flight, with the sun on the other side of the plane; ignore the pilot slumped to his right; ignore F16s alongside, and firing flares; all without someone moving into the copilot seat and at least attempting to do something-likely the daughter, who had presumably been on flights in this plane before.
Or, you could have failure of a single component, or a single inappropriate control setting by the pilot, causing depressurization, or more likely lack of pressurization. Occam's razor suggests the latter.
@@joe_DWilson I'm not sure they would. From my understanding, it was there first time, and it wasn't like it lasted 6 hrs. Two women with a child who knew nothing about aviation, and trusted there pilot. I think he had a heart attack, died at the controls, and the auto pilot flew until it ran out of fuel. Hence the clear windows. The interseptors reported that the pilot was slumped in his seat and the shades were pulled in the rear. They well may have just been asleep.
The thing I don’t understand with these hypoxia accidents is how the pilots didn’t notice the excessive rate of climb of their cabin altitude. If your cabin is climbing at 2000ft/min you should definitely be feeling that in your ears and a quick glance at the pressurization gauge would confirm what’s happening.
Either way, hopefully the CVR can shed some light on this (if it had one.)
NO CVR was required on this airplane FAr 91.609 . In this case since this airplane could be operated single pilot under a LOA letter of agreement single pilot and special training a CVR is not required.
@@TheFalconJetDriver I figured
@@TheFalconJetDriver I don't think it works like that. The 560 was, and still is, certificated for a two pilot crew. Just because there is a special exemption for certain pilots to fly it single pilot is not going to do away with the CVR requirement. In any event, my friend has a 560 just a few serial numbers later than the accident aircraft and it came equipped with a CVR as original equipment.
The pilot knew he had a 2 year old on board and kids have issues with their ears.....I am sure, he was operating the climb, for their comfort. I really feel he died after he programmed the auto pilot. The F-16's could see him, leaning towards the right seat, not moving....not responding. The windows in the back, were closed. The passengers did not notice them and that is the suspicious part. Could they have been asleep ? or maybe, they were passed out. That would be comforting for the families, instead of suffering a spiral descent to the ground. Noting anyone wants. Seconds are horrifying eternity.
I'm kinda old, my first wings were in 1965 in a FUCorsier (sp?) yes I knew Pappy Boyington in the Marines... Many stories to share
Oh, how I would love to spend some time with you and hear those stories.
Surely there is some kind of cabin pressure altitude warning system in this aircraft?
There is!
No frosted windows?
I fly this model. Before I bought it the squat switch failed during decent at FL380, the cabin dumped and went to sea level instantly. No lights or alarms, the aircraft thought it was ground. My friend did a emergency decent and got aircraft on ground safely. If the switch failed on takeoff, no warnings other than looking at cabin altitude and diff gauge. I added this to checklist at 10000ft and FL180. This failed item is not on emergency checklist.
I'm also of the opinion it was a medical issue with the pilot. If it were a cabin depressurization, the interior temperature would also drop to ambient for the flight altitude, and condensation would freeze, frosting the windows as happened with Payne Stewart's incident in 1999. The F-16 pilot could distinctly see the pilot slumped over, indicating clear windows. If this is the true scenario (medical emergency), the question remains, why did the passengers not notice it, or if they did, why did they take no action? This would tend to support a depressurization event, as they would be incapacitated as well, but in either possibility, we may never know the actual facts.
Does the Citation have a locked door separating passengers from the cockpit? In the absence of frosted windows, and so presumably conscious passengers, that's the only thing that would make sense to me.
agree about the passengers, nobody is mentioning that. Also, could it be carbon monoxide? Can CO accumulate in a plane?
If the pressurization or oxygen system is malfunctioning or not programmed correctly, it could just hold a much higher cabin altitude and still hold temperature inside the aircraft, leading to hypoxia, but not a frozen cabin.
@@marcoagostoni8827 No. The cabin air in a citation is turned over several times per minute. There is no potential internal source of CO generation either.
@@marcoagostoni8827 yes, and it sounds about like this
Great breakdown. My reasons are the same as yours. 1. Slow depressurization like you said, and the pilot did not catch it. 2. Rapid depressurization and he failed to put on the mask, or the mask did not work. 3. Medical emergency and the passengers did not know what to do.
The owner’s daughter was likely a frequent passenger on the plane. If the pilot only was incapacitated she would have tried to radio the tower or try to signal the fighter pilots. I’ve flown on a Citation V numerous times. There is no barrier between the pilot and the passengers so they would have seen the pilot incapacitated. We always flew with two pilots. So my belief they all suffered from hypoxia.
She might have been napping since the shades were down.
@@loudidier3891 Two adults with a toddler - not sure that they could have all napped that long.
@@loudidier3891 No one said the shades were down. The intercept pilots just didn't report on the passengers.
@@BigBen621 Other sources have said the F-16 pilots reported the shades were down.
@@loudidier3891 What are these other sources? Who did these pilots actually talks to?
Your presentation was an excellent assessment of the accident. Thanks for being there.
If it was hypoxia, at least no one was likely to have known anything. Just lean over and fall asleep peacefully.
Wouldn't a cabin altitude alarm sound if the cabin gets above 10k?
Yes, big red master waring light
Was just thinking that the most likely case here is that the pressurization setting might not have been set for auto or set correctly and caused the hypoxic event. Sad loss of life that day :( I actually heard the jets scramble over my house, they were hauling I'll tell ya that. Almost sounded like a small explosion in the distance as the shockwave ripped through my area.
Reminds me of that LearJet crash that had a famous golf player on board. The similarities are eerie
It's ridiculous for fighters to scramble just when it's approaching DC, why not earlier? According to news reports, the pilot stopped communicating with ATC 15 minutes into the flight. Yet this plane was able to fly all the way to LI, near the Hamptons, turn to a course heading to DC still with no communication. Why no jets then? Is NORAD a joke?
Standard IFR lost communications procedure is to continue along your route of flight to your destination if you are not in VFR conditions. We don’t know the exact conditions of the day but it could be that there was IMC present. The aircraft did not necessarily follow the other steps for lost communications procedures, but there is nothing here to indicate the aircraft was a threat to people on the ground. At most it was an aircraft that wasn’t following proper lost communications procedures. After all, the aircraft was still flying it’s filed route. It wasn’t until the aircraft failed to descend and land that ATC would have the smoking gun that this wasn’t just a loss communications issue. I also believe that NORAD was likely tracking this aircraft for quite some time beforehand, they just decided not scramble until the aircraft maneuvered towards D.C.
Yes, I agree. Why fly so long without being intercepted by the jets. Is there some kind of protocol whereby the controllers at Atlanta and New York contact NORAD and report a non responsive aircraft at FL 340? Why over the DC area? The aircraft was above the restricted airspace over DC anyway!
I do believe I read that NY Center , maybe even Washington center, did contact NORAD well before the plane turned over Long Island. After the plane made the 180 degree turn they scrambled F16's out of Atlantic City to intercept. As stated above....The plane was still following it's filed flight plan up to this point and was probably being treated like a lost communication flight by ATC. This procedure does require the pilot to squawk 7600 on his transponder though, and this should have thrown up a red flag to ATC.
@@lyleparadise2764 If the pilot was a victim of hypoxia I doubt that he would have time to set the transponder but the controllers can verify if the pilot is receiving transmissions by simply giving him a heading to fly. If the A/C flys that heading then for sure he can hear you.
Would good to integrate the pressure system with the autopilot where if something is wrong it auto descends to say 8000ft and starts a circle pattern.
More modern jets do that.
@@richardmcspadden9189 And even some piston singles. And some turboprop singles will even land themselves if the pilot is incapacitated. What a time to be alive!
F-16 pilot acknowledge that he saw Citation pilot in cockpit. That mean for me, that windows on Cessna were clear from frost, what will cover them in case of depressurisation. I think this is not the thing in this case. Medical is more probable.
The frosted windows aren’t a given with depressurization or hypoxia.
If I'm remembereing correctly, in the Payne Stewart crash, the windows were frozen over because of the assumed depressurization, and the intercepting jets were unable to see insice the cockpit. If that's the case in this type of event, why didn't they freeze over this time? Would that throw into the question (or perhaps help clarify,) the type of immobilization that happened to the pilot? Or is there a different type of windscreen defroster in this Citation. Not sure why, but this seems like an inconsistency that might matter.
Very good question. I believe more to story.
This is almost certainly a slow pressurization leak that led to hypoxia for everyone onboard. All the evidence suggests the same thing. This is also the "best case scenario" for everyone involved because if you were conscious during an almost 40,000 ft plunge it would have been the most terrifying final moments imaginable
Just curious, would a depressurization not lead to a fogging of the windows making it impossible to see into the aircraft?
@@loganbobrow9333 That would only be the case in an rapid decompression where the pressure changes extremely rapidly. Slow decompression would not have the same indicators like that.
Check the maintenance log to determine last inspection of emergency oxygen system and interview inspector for any issues discovered.
I fly a private Citation Mustang and I always make sure to tell my passengers to let me know if they ever feel light headedness and what to do if I go unconscious. Also, I do hypoxia training every now and then to feel the signs of it coming. If it were to happen to me then I would know from a mile away what was going on. Sadly a lot of pilots, no matter their skill level, don't assume the worst and don't pay close enough attention to the instruments
That’s what I call due diligence. Thank you on behalf of your passengers.
February of '22, my 68 yo flight instructor, who also held a Class 1, died of Suddenly. I was the last person outside of his wife to see him alive. He was one of three otherwise healthy but double-vaxxed mid-sixties friends to die in this fashion.
The newer aircrafts have automated ways to detect lack of activity in the cockpit, then prompt for response and if not automatically go to a lower altitude or even have an autoland feature. Not foolproof but worth it for a multi-million $$$ machine and the associated risks of hypoxia. Maybe the FAA could allow retrofits for older jets for it.
Not true.
Doesn’t it have an annunciator that comes on for a cabin over 10k?
Really enjoy the well produced and informative videos AOPA puts together!!! Is there anyway to put an eq on the audio to get rid of the whistling. Thanks!
Impressive initial analysis of this mishap. Thank you.
Always look forward to watching a new episode of accident case study. Please make some more.
We’re working on it! Should have our next one out this summer.
@@richardmcspadden9189 Thank you :)
@@richardmcspadden9189 I pray you never have to do another one, or, if you do, that all aboard get home uninjured.
@@elcastorgrande like most of my colleagues in safety. Our hope (and prayer) is to work ourselves out of a job.
Look at the throttle inputs on the graph @ 2:06, does this indicate a conscious pilot? Or doe it look like he is having a hard time controlling the aircraft speed?
Those aren't throttle inputs. FlightAware shows ground speed, so what that's showing is the variation in winds aloft.
@@BigBen621 Understood, Thanks for the clarification!
I thought the Class 1 Medical Certificate was only valid for 6 Calendar 📆 Months. If he took his last exam in October, it would have expired April 30, 2023. Isn't that correct? If so, he was flying on an expired medical certificate according to this report.
Technically its a valid class 1 with 3rd class privileges. Theoretically it’s legal if he wasn’t flying for hire
@@garrettboone4306 You are Wrong. It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the month the exam was conducted. Not a 3 rd. class as you state. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months.
Nope that is incorrect! It is still a first class medical because that is the standard that the exam was conducted under after six months It is still a valid first class medical with 2nd class privileges for 12 months from the months the exam was conducted.. FAR part 91 and that is what he was operating under only requires a 2nd class medical not a first. If he where flying under Far 135 he would require a 1 class medical good for six months as a captain. after 6 months he could fly as a First Officer for additional 6 months. the report is wrong. This pilot was flying FAR part 91 and that only required a 2nd class Medical not a First.
I hope you are not a pilot if you are you need to brush up on FAR part 67.
I was once told that it is possible to have an 85% blockage and still pass a coronary stress test. Not sure if it is true but i don't see a regular class one medical exam necessarily picking up the potential of a blood clot to the brain or heart.
A sad reminder that hypoxia can creep up on you slow or fast. The early 525 and 550 Citations have somewhat clunky pressurization systems that can fail for a number of rather simple reasons. I've been flying them for about two years now and have had pressurization related issues in three separate 525/550 aircraft and three (two were at low altitude) decompressions on one single 550 type. One which was a hard fail and it resulted in an emergency descent. This most recent crash makes two pressurization related accidents in less than a year in the 550 type.
Just food for thought, the Encore/ Ultra's service ceiling is FL450 and in a rapid decompression the useful consciousness is 9-15 seconds. Add to that, an emergency descent at ~6,000 FPM would still take 5+ minutes to get below 10,000'
This is just more more reinforcement for my unyielding opinion that absolutely NO jet/ turboprop larger than a CJ-1/ C-90 should be flown single pilot. And not that there should be an age limit but, sorry, a 70 year old pilot (regardless of medical class) should have never been given the single pilot waiver.
Thank you for commenting.
Not hypoxia. F16 pilots could see the pilot slumped over. Windows would be fogged up if a pressure issue.
@@davidcampbell8287 not necessarily. Unless part of the aircraft was missing letting outside air in, the heat provided by the bleeds/ ACM could still be contained in the cabin keeping things somewhat warm. Even with a hard pressurization system failure or open outflow valve, the heat proved by the bleeds *should* still be entering the cabin.
@@SuperMillerman10 so there is no depressure warning? At 34k 30-60 seconds useful conciousness or so its said.
and more if at climbout as is stated here....whats the explanation for that?
Why did it matter if the plane was on a heading over the FRZ. Wouldn't someone NORDO, especially after passing their destination and not squawking 7600, scramble fighters to investigate? I sure thought it would and has.
Time of useful consciousness assume an average, healthy person. At 69 years old, it’s very very possible that he was far more susceptible to hypoxia. It’s concerning that we have for-hire private jet operators running single-pilot at ages higher than allowed for Part 121.
This was a Part 91 op
That's how the owner, John Rumpel, was able to donate so much of his fortune to things like the NRA and Trump: BY CUTTING CORNERS, like not having a co-pilot for his 'adopted 49 year old daughter.' He will likely collect new monies for both the airplane, its crash, and his 'daughter's' life insurance policies. His grieving won't last long, IMO.
@@davidpeterson7197 No WAY you found a way to make this about Trump. Incredible. Hats off to you, bud.
@@davidpeterson7197 Way to go doofus. Politics have no place in this discussion.
Cry more you two
These are so good. Keep up the great work.
Pilot died. FMS programmed where autopilot hit waypoints. Right engine ran out of fuel first cause the right descending bank. Further tightened and steepened until contact with the ground.
1:04 I dont understand it says ""Second in Command Required"" was their not a second in command?
That's only for the Embraer EMB 110 type rating. No restriction on the CE-500 type rating.
It's a citation iSP. (single pilot)
@@joe_DWilson No, it's a Citation V. Normally requires two pilots but can be flown by one with a Single Pilot Exemption.
@@igclapp Roger That. Thanks
Every time I go to renew my first class medical, the AME does the absolute bare minimum . Might as well not do any medical as if they aren’t going to do a in depth scan and overview of your body and health. Seriously.
They do the bare minimum unless they have reason to suspect literally *anything*
@@JetSkiSuper7I see what you did there. 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍
It's all about the mighty dollar. They know if they did a rigorous job, most won't come back. My ame does 10-12 an hour.. Whole day.. At $175pp..2 days a week. Yes that's what's called a cash cow.
So if you are concerned about this you should probably fine a new AME for yourself!
Put a mirror under your nose, if it steams up, you pass, if not, call the coroner.
Hypoxia seems the most plausible hypothesis. The medical emergency hypothesis doesn’t make much sense, since you would expect the passengers would attempt to make some kind of intervention (assuming they could see/enter the cockpit); it would be bizarre if they just stayed in their seats without trying to help the pilot in some way!
I still think we need to not just optionally, but it should be a requirement for all Pilots to wear Oxygen Monitors, we have cheap passive ones that can even be setup via Bluetooth to Apple/Android phones and tablets etc. They can give you early warning that your Blood Oxygen level is dropping and I think this would save lots of lives.
By the time it starts dropping and warning it may be too late. The Time of useful Consciousness for FL 340 is 30 seconds or so. So, the O2 sat drop is very rapid.
@jerry kurata good point, I think it would probably depend on that unique symptoms per person thing, how quickly you are beyond help, What is hopeful is with the recent 'Human Malware' we have seen a good percentage, mainly younger people with walking Hypoxia (due to the lung damage) and walking pneumonia, a lot of people affected by human malware (2019-ncov) have not realized how sick they are, and a lot of them have oxygen levels showing 30%,50%,70% ranges give or take (and sadly have been good part of those who end up in ICU) so while oxygen monitor won't save everyone I think it is an extra tool in the tool Luggage carry-on bag.... (ha)
@jerry kurata Additional thought on idea is the data read out can or is saved (and might be able to also be backed up to black boxes down the road) so even if the oxygen detector did not save someone, you have extra record of the pilots abilities. Too many times pilots are blamed for bad choices, yet so many issues with Cockpit Fume events (from small planes all the way to Boeing or Airbus) still unaddressed, and the fact that atmosphere contamination doesn't act like a binary switch (either awake or passed out) there is a scale of wakefulness, and I.M.O. even "minor" fume events have to somewhat impact the "thinking" of a pilot, and thus events outside the pilots control can cause the mistakes in some cases. but until we have better monitoring and actually fix some of the Cockpit fume events (number 1 is Boeing / airbus planes near end of journey having fume events happen as they descend around 10,000ft Alt, over and over again for many years now, and events still not solved. Not every fume event actually has a smell or smoke either so, so many things right now accepted that can cause pilots to have risk to be impaired and risk being fully blamed for "pilot errors" when we don't have a system in place to monitor quality of air, actual oxygen levels, and even recording other substances in the Cockpit air to some sort of black box.
Lack of a system to help clear pilots names, and right now Pilots are easy to blame for so many accidents. When again, if something is slowly even just barely impairing them and it is not fair to always blame a pilot when we don't have the recording of Cockpit atmospheric conditions.
I thought the lack of frost on the windows was interesting. This is common, on presuration failure on climb out. Waiting to hear more. Thanks!
About myocarditis from vaccination
Yep...Pressurisation failure on climb out would not necessarily mean condensation, (be it light or serious), or ice on the inside, since ice would come at altitude. Looks like everything comes down to last ATC conversations acknowledged. The FDR will tell the true picture....
Payne Stewart's Learjet flight was intercepted because there was no reply back to ATC...so exactly the same as this. Shows how on the ball the ATC people were in this instance.
Same end result. A high speed spiral descent into terrain once the fuel was exhausted. Dead people and a big hole in the ground.....
Should there be a VCR it will tell us if the pilot completed the checklists as he should have done. Despite being a single pilot, as a professional with thousands of hours in his book, he would / should have 'voiced' the checklists as he went through them....
it will be interesting to see if this evidence becomes available....if the VCR survived the impact.
James Hennighan
Yorkshire, England
@@antd8667 By the way, wasn’t that the reason several attendees at COP-26 insisted on pilots who did not receive theV?
@@jameshennighan8193 No CVR on this aeroplane.
Excellent video and presentation sir. Thank you
Think Dan Gryder hit the nail on the head on this case study.
I concur with Dan's opinion. Not hypoxia, but a medical emergency with the retired airline pilot flying single pilot. R.I.P.
At least we know that it had nothing to do with vaccination status. As we all know, they are safe and effective.
@@ChazToz His justification for why that *has* to be the case is weak though. The windows wouldn’t necessarily frost over in the case of depressurization
@@ejag7375 Because Dan "Goober" Gryder is an imbecile. His numbskull "theory" is the pilot stroked out from Covid vaccine.
This brings back the memories of the Payne Stewart crash and the Helios crash in Greece.
If slumped over for medical, one might assume a passenger would be near them to be seen by the F-16
Status of the passengers is a big unknown that could be a helpful clue.
Not if the cockpit door is locked, as required on some planes. Does anyone know if this plane had a locking door to the cockpit?
@@shannajones9014 It doesn't have one
@@shannajones9014 Only 121 Air carriers are required to have locking doors.
If it where due to Hypoxic Hypoxia the passengers were out like a light too!
How did nobody raise the alarm sooner to an unresponsive airplane flying for a couple hours up the East Coast toward NYC and then back toward DC on an IFR flight plan. The fact the fighters didn't intercept it until it passed over the DC area is a little concerning.
Single pilot operations was a factor. Always have a copilot in jets etc… too many young pilots need to build experience. Citation should have warning when the cabin reaches 10000 feet and the masks drop at 14000 feet (standard in jets). Above 35000 pilot is required to wear masks (never done). Rest in peace and prayers to all family
Just curious, would a depressurization not lead to a fogging of the windows making it impossible to see into the aircraft?
Not necessarily. A sudden depressurization could cause fog to form in the cabin air due to sudden cooling below the dew point due to adiabatic expansion, and some of that moisture could attach to the window panes, they being the coldest part of the airplane even with normal pressurization. But unless the a/c pack has failed there will be warm dry air flowing into the cabin which will clear up the suspended fog and dry up the windows. If the pressurization pack fails to supply air to the cabin, then the cabin temp will drop, the windows initially being the coldest will serve as condensation spots for water vapor, which will seep out of the insulation blankets and a cumulate in the stagnant cabin air. The blankets are as cold as the fuselage skin on one side and Initially almost as warm as the cabin on the other side and are often damp from condensation of vapor from cabin occupants, food, humid air at lower altitudes, etc. The blanket condensation may freeze on the fuselage skin (interior) at high altitude then thaw on descent and may not get a chance to evaporate before the next cycle and the blanket may not dry out. But if you button up the airplane up on the ground on a hot day you might see rain on the inside of the windows when inside humidity reaches 100%. On older airplanes with not so well-fitting blankets, enough of the frozen condensation can thaw when descending that you can get "rain on the plane" during approach.
Regarding this pilot’s FAA medical, I have been told by a reliable source, that he had and passed, a new 1st class medical 5 days before this flight. He is said to have been a healthy and fit person.
doesn't mean anything. stroke & heart attack cannot be foreseen by physical exam.
@@garymartin9777 I agree. I’ve had about 80 1st class medical and many EKG’s. These exams are NOT a thorough check that you’d have your GP do. Agree, anyone anytime could keel over from xxx (heart attack, stroke, aneurysm etc.
Really good presentation.
Just an FYI….I lived in East TN and it’s pronounced Eliz-ah-bethton - not Eliz-Beth-ton.
Not a big deal but just thought I’d mention it!
Thank you.
Pilot medical issue. Needed a SIC, lives saved.
Almost zero chance of that since no passengers were seen by any of the F-16 pilots. If the passengers had been conscience they would have been seen from the point when the airplane turned around in new jersey, i.e. they would have noticed.
@@2011blueman ya exvept all window shades reported down.... research
@@davidcampbell8287 _ya exvept all window shades reported down.... research_
No one has said that...research.
@@BigBen621 Except the F16 pilots reported that they were as reported by NBC news....
@@davidcampbell8287 David, I have viewed all the NBC News reports on this that I could find. All mentioned the pilot slumped over to the right, but none mentioned the passengers or window shades. If you've actually seen this in a NBC News report, could you please share the time and date so I can confirm this? Thanks!
An aircraft capable of flight up to 40,000 must have a cabin altitude warning system. How often is the sensor it relies on tested/calibrated to see if it can still register altitudes above 8000 feet? If it reads up to 9000, but then sticks, you might never notice it in normal operation. Then the first time you forget to set up the cabin pressurization system properly, it kills you without a warning.
Very good question. The jet pilot guys I know are now talking about getting independent pressure backup alarms. Even Garmin makes a watch that can be set up to give barometric altitude alerts.
Every year, when it has to undergo an inspection in order for its Certificate of Airworthiness to be renewed.
Maybe time for new debates on mandatory O2 mask usage for a single pilot or one pilot in a crew above 30k feet. or some level. Too easy not to die from loss of pressurization.
If it was a loss of cabin pressure at that altitude for that amount of time why no icing/fogging of the windows?
90% it was a heart attack.
clott shot
People say the pain looked like it was flying back to Elizabethton, TN (0A9). But if you look at the flight path closely, the pilot likely programmed in the final few waypoints as the intersection of SARDI then to Calverton (CCC) and then to the final airport of Long Island (KISP). The arch you see at the end is just the autopilot flying the arch between the different legs. So if you draw a direct line from CCC to KISP, that will show you the exact line the aircraft flew. Not back to Elizabethon TN, it just happened to look like it was flying back.
That is exactly correct! If it hadn't run out of fuel first, it would have passed a few miles south of 0A9.
After 55, two pilots should be required.
Why 55 in particular? Is there some type of statistical evidence that shows a sharp increase of medical related incidents at 56? Are you talking about all aviation, or just part 135/121?
What about all the 30 year olds that are dying suddenly...
@@VictoryAviation why any number in particular for anything? It’s just dumb. If you can prove competency you should be allowed to do whatever. Statistics don’t exist. Some can, some can’t. Test them and let them.
@@ItsAllAboutGuitar exactly
@@denysolleik9896 Soooo, maybe something like a special medical that they would have to take every year? Or maybe a flying test that would be required?
Is there no low O2 warning?