So, the trick is to listen to it as background on audio books. This allows you to skim through the narration such as descriptors of women's breasts and women's opinions about everything, and just get the the Adventures of Matrim Cauthon.
As someone who read WoT voraciously back in the 90s (when I was an impressionable teenager), I agree with everything you said, and have a couple of extra points to ads from the pov of someone who's read a significant portion of the series: first, it's 90% filler, especially as the series goes on. Very little happens between books 5-11 (which is when I checked out). At a certain point I suspected he was stretching the series out for the money, since after reading the first four books it feels like the plot could easily wrap up by book 5 or 6. Secondly, Jordan has trouble writing women. Several of his female characters are portrayed as shrewish nags, in ways that maybe didn't stand out in the 90s but are very blatant now. Even originally likeable characters become annoying fusspots as the series goes on. And the only thing worse than doorstoppers with dragging, stretched-out plot is doorstoppers with dragging, stretched-out plot full of characters you find annoying.
I have said this before (and will probably say it again) Jordan is the biggest problem in the series. I read the entire series (I must be a glutton for punishment) so here's the issues. Jordan is a product of the Jim Crow South: not only is slavery fine and dandy, some people should be enslaved. His Ever Victorious Army never makes the same mistake twice. Women are weak and are easily enslaved just because some magical devise makes them feel sick (this in spite of the fact that these women are the powerful weapons in the story). I could drone on for hours, but it just gets worse, and Sanderson just makes it worse.
Oh wow… I’m reminded of that oft-used quote: “How could you say something so controversial and yet so brave?” I don’t know about the rest of the series, but his portrayal of the female characters did seem a bit…off to me. Maybe I stopped at the right time? Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I reached the third book and had enough of the series. Some people said that Jordan seems the type that had some issues with women, and I totally agree with that. Three books in and the female characters haven't developed a bit, they're all uptight, schooling men and boys alike.
To be honest, I was getting similar vibes from Eye of the World. It all felt a little…sexist? Like he didn’t really know how to write a woman, so he just…didn’t try. 🤷♂️
I had issues with Wheel of Time as a series and I was never a fan of Tolkein. My first thought is on the Magic Users being all female was something I didn't like and understand that I liked the fact there was a reason for it actually made some sense. I still think men should be magic users if they want to be. This is me being a woman. Not all fiction is going be for you. I read the Dragonriders of Pern and enjoyed it and I gotten to last book with Space ship and for me that is an end to series. I haven't read the book after the Weyrs of Pern
Right? I’m not exactly one for the whole “gendered magic system” thing. Even Dune rubbed me the wrong way for the same reasons. Of course, I’m a proponent for magic being weird and esoteric; more like the magic practiced by real world magicians, medicine men, and witches, as opposed to the flashy, zip zap boing style we get in most fantasy… 🤷♂️
You take a lot of precautions ^^ (Maybe even a little too much...) I read the first two books, and I really don't get it: what is so great about Wheel of Time? It's a very basic, uninteresting fantasy, heavily based on Middle Earth (I completely agree with you on that point), and you can't expect a reader to go through 14 books to appreciate what you write! Anyway, thank you for the video, it was a nice video and I felt less alone^^ (and please excuse my crappy English O.O)
Yeah, when I’m stream-of-consciousness rambling, I tend to take a lot of steps to cover my ass! 😂 But I’m glad you agree with me! There are literally dozens of us!
Bored as hell, I endure until the third because everybody was telling me how good it was. But later I understood that, they will tryin to make me read the mediocre ones to reach a "good final". I don't understand that. You don't hope it will be better, it has to be good from the beginning!!!
Yeah, every once in a while I’ll find a book or show that takes some time to get off the ground (a few chapters or episodes) but multiple books (or seasons) is a little excessive.
Personally I don’t get the hype. When I tried reading this series all it did was put me to sleep. Great for those that like it. But I personally found it boring.
I am at the fourth book right now and I can easily sum up my experience by saying this: I like how it's written, but I loathe what IS written. I have to admit to that Jordon has a way with prose. His writing is smooth and flowing, impactful where it needs to be. But if i take away the most technical part of prose, the story in itself is insufferable. If you couldn't connect Rand and the others in the first book, don't even get me started on what all the characters become in the fourth. Every one is a stereotype. Jordon can not write women, he can not write men. And he sure as hell can not write women and men in love. I read a scene that was literally a sexual assault but played out as "romantic". It can even be pedophile (iykwim). Everything just feels like a weird version of Lord of Rings. Rand, Perrin and Mat are like the hobbits. Lan is basically Aarogon. Moraine is female version of Gandalf. And the dark one is Sauron. I also DO NOT appreciate the cultural appropriation. Jordan says he was inspired by arab/islamic mythology and then he goes ahead and mentions everything that is stereotypical and also just outrageous. For example, Ishameal being the betrayer, the whole emphasis on the Aiel and how they are so primitive and so in shock of seeing water anywhere (like come on!). Also the name Shaytan 😭 good lord, do you know how many times my family uses that word in normal conversation (no we don't practice witchcraft or something. Just any urdu/arabic speaking person is verh normalised to that word because that's what Satan is called in Urdu/arabic). It's even like an insult sometimes. Everytime that word gets mentioned its so anticlimatic. I even laughed once. If he had done his research properly, he would have known a more impactful name would have been "Iblis" 🤷🏻♀️ but well 🤷🏻♀️ He isnt even good at plot. The ending of book 2 and 3 are basically the same. The magic system is mediocre at best. At first i thought he was leading us to greater magic systems and rules but if I am at the fourth book and all i can get is the most generic description of magic (repeatedly) then maybe the guy didnt actually know what he was doing. So basically, i like his style and i would like my writing to be as smooth so I want to read it to learn but I HATE what I am reading.
Yeah, being a fan of world mythologies myself, I found his take on things to be very “meh”. My typical rule for fantasy is to take a culture or mythology and change a few key aspects (if the Vikings were monotheists, for instance). I just don’t think he was very creative (or at all creative) in that regard. A shame, because I thought some of the characters had promise. By the way, Iblis is a much better name. I don’t know why, but it always had an appeal to me as something frightful and dangerous. A good name for a villain (see: Count Iblis from the original Battlestar Galactica)
I agree. I got about a third of the way through the first book and decided I'd endured enough. The worst part is that fans of the book can't seem to conceive of someone not loving their favourite series, and assume you're just trying to be contrary.
I think we must have bailed around the same time… About the point *spoiler* Thom Merrilin disappears. He had the only REALLY neat character concept, and I have a soft spot for bards…oh well. Thankfully most people have been understanding of my critique so far.
I muscled thru to 9. I agree with a lot of what other commenters are saying and u totally. All type braid tugging and dressing smoothing becomes tiresome so fast with every scene with the women he writes sigh. I’ll finish it. Eventually
I have been struggling for the better part of a year to finish The Shadow Rising and have now lost all desire to read any more of the series. Every one-off character has to have a name, why? Why do most of the characters fail to grow or mature? No matter how many times Moraine saves their asses, they refuse to develop any trust in her. At all. The pace is glacial most of the time until, with no warning, it ramps to warp speed. The switch is jarring and often seemed to only serve as a poor disguise for some ex machina plot device. And, oh god, the repetition! Entire sentences were repeated, verbatim, in The Dragon Returns, while the Dragon, Rand, appears more as an afterthought in the book.
Yeah, I can understand your frustration. But I’m still glad the series is enjoyed by so many people out there (even if I’m not one of them), and I hope it inspires more interesting reimaginings of Jordan’s ideas in the future.
I agree with some of what you say, I have at least finished the whole series. Having done some reading he was limited in the beginning in order to get published and so that seams to be a large part of why it seams so Lord of the Rings. It is understandable that publisher would push for that. Its not until after book 3 that it starts to really shine on its own and the threads he lays out in the beginning that are unique become more of the identity of the series. I agree that it it somehow filler as well in some of the mid books. Not a lot plot wise actually seams to happen yet somehow its several books. The characters do shine and i think its a product of its and his time in its representation and character portrayal despite the attempts to make female leads shine along with the male counterparts. Don't get me started on the strange spanking thing that pops up way to much lol. I found several characters to regress at times in the series but in many ways that very human and people do that in the real world. Overall I did end up enjoying it. I know its controversial of me to say but I think Brandon Sanderson finished the series with his writing better than what Robert Jordan did. I was unfamiliar with Brandon's work until after I read this series.
I very much respect your opinion. In fact, I think you’ve made some fine points, though I’m not sure I’m going to give the series another shot anytime soon. Maybe in a year or two. Thank you for sharing!
That’s an interesting take (and one I don’t hear often). I respect your opinion, though I’m not sure I’ll be giving the series another shot anytime soon. I think I need a Wheel of Time break…
@ConnorLandonFreeman I just finished listening to the audio books, but they are pretty hard to get through. I do understand that the first book is really hard to get through. I mean, Thom and Moraine are the only good characters in the book. The books do get better, though, but I do hate how anticlimactic most of Robert Jordan's books are
@MysicValley I felt like Nothing ever happened is those books until the end of the book. Normally something pretty cool, but it would be resolved in like 2 pages, when it had a huge build up. Really anticlimactic imo
@@danielhenry6777 not disagreeing. But I love the character moments and world building we got. I've read through the series(book and audiobook) a dozen times give it have. Maybe I'm a bit excessive?
Same here. I was greatly interested in the WoT books as world seemed very interesting also it was recommended to me by my friend.. I've got the first book, began reading in the best possible environment and... It was sooo boring and slow.. For all my fascination I never finished yhe first tome. So i totally understand
So..., who cares, right? It doesn't really matter why you don't like something, you just don't like it. Doesn't resonate with you. I never liked the Dragonriders of Pern, or the Twilight novels. And yet I love both the DUNE series (the ones by Frank Herbert) and used to read The Lord of the Rings every winter for years.
Yeah, I agree. I think as long as you’re respectful, it’s perfectly fine not to like something (and it shouldn’t automatically make you some sort of horrible person, but that’s a topic for another day).
Oh buddy, book five is rough. A big Chongus of the middle section is just some of the most mind numbing plot I’ve read. RJ is not…. Exceptional when it comes to writing his women characters and my word. It went from epic fantasy to sex in the city and just stayed in the catty / bickering place for so many chapters 😅
Wheel of Time is legitimately terrible! Rand al’Thor sucks and the world and ideas are all shameless stolen from other better works without much to make them interesting, unique, or anything that justifies ripping them off.
If you're going to enjoy it you just have to immerse yourself in it and accept it for what it is. Yeah I suppose Jordan doesn't write women well. But maybe Rand Al Thor just knows a lot of bossy, bitchy women. The Aes Sedai act overly superior and controlling because they ARE superior. It's a major plot point. That explains in part why a lot of the communities are matriarchal without spoiling too much. The fantasy world just is as it is. Sure he borrows from Tolkein. EVERYONE does. If you write fantasy, you owe JRR Tolkein. It's that simple. And Tolkein borrowed from other sources, included the bible of all things. Robert Jordan isn't perfect.. he drones endlessly on about detail, which is both good and bad. He's hit or miss writing characters, especially women. The middle third of the series is an absolute slog no doubt. But what I found worked best was just to pace myself with the story and go on this adventure with these characters as they try to survive, gain power, defeat the bad guys, etc. Anything I found missing with the characters or story I just "filled in the blanks" mentally and it was fine. Course nobody HAS to like it. Or any book. But I think there's a lot of good stuff to be mined from the series content-wise and it'd be a shame if you missed out on it because the packaging of it all just doesn't work for you.
You make a good point. As I said in the video, I just don’t think I was in the right place to immerse myself in that world. Obviously all fantasy takes inspiration from LotR, so I’ll admit that comment was a bit shortsighted of me. Nevertheless, I am glad I read what I did. The series, from what I can gather, isn’t exactly my cup of tea aesthetically or thematically, but I can see why it means so much to so many people. Thank you for sharing your opinion, and for watching the video.
So, the trick is to listen to it as background on audio books. This allows you to skim through the narration such as descriptors of women's breasts and women's opinions about everything, and just get the the Adventures of Matrim Cauthon.
Ha! That’s one way to look at it, I suppose… Unfortunately, audiobooks aren’t really for me. But thanks for the advice!
@@ConnorLandonFreeman That's what I thought at first, but it is a lot less work on my eyes now that I'm older.
I read the series during the 90s /2000s. I gave up after Winters Heart and never felt like i missed out on anything.
As someone who read WoT voraciously back in the 90s (when I was an impressionable teenager), I agree with everything you said, and have a couple of extra points to ads from the pov of someone who's read a significant portion of the series: first, it's 90% filler, especially as the series goes on. Very little happens between books 5-11 (which is when I checked out). At a certain point I suspected he was stretching the series out for the money, since after reading the first four books it feels like the plot could easily wrap up by book 5 or 6.
Secondly, Jordan has trouble writing women. Several of his female characters are portrayed as shrewish nags, in ways that maybe didn't stand out in the 90s but are very blatant now. Even originally likeable characters become annoying fusspots as the series goes on. And the only thing worse than doorstoppers with dragging, stretched-out plot is doorstoppers with dragging, stretched-out plot full of characters you find annoying.
Wow. It sounds like I might have bailed out at the right time, then! It is a shame, because characters like Moirainne and Thom had a lot of promise…
I have said this before (and will probably say it again) Jordan is the biggest problem in the series. I read the entire series (I must be a glutton for punishment) so here's the issues. Jordan is a product of the Jim Crow South: not only is slavery fine and dandy, some people should be enslaved. His Ever Victorious Army never makes the same mistake twice. Women are weak and are easily enslaved just because some magical devise makes them feel sick (this in spite of the fact that these women are the powerful weapons in the story). I could drone on for hours, but it just gets worse, and Sanderson just makes it worse.
Oh wow… I’m reminded of that oft-used quote: “How could you say something so controversial and yet so brave?”
I don’t know about the rest of the series, but his portrayal of the female characters did seem a bit…off to me. Maybe I stopped at the right time? Thank you for sharing your opinion.
Can we be friends? 🥺🥺 Because OMG every word of this is sooo true
I reached the third book and had enough of the series. Some people said that Jordan seems the type that had some issues with women, and I totally agree with that. Three books in and the female characters haven't developed a bit, they're all uptight, schooling men and boys alike.
To be honest, I was getting similar vibes from Eye of the World. It all felt a little…sexist? Like he didn’t really know how to write a woman, so he just…didn’t try. 🤷♂️
Alright step up to the block. Take your jewelry off.
I refuse to go without a fight! I will not go gently! NEVER! 😂
I'm with you. I didn't care for it either. Love the video.
I had issues with Wheel of Time as a series and I was never a fan of Tolkein. My first thought is on the Magic Users being all female was something I didn't like and understand that I liked the fact there was a reason for it actually made some sense. I still think men should be magic users if they want to be. This is me being a woman. Not all fiction is going be for you. I read the Dragonriders of Pern and enjoyed it and I gotten to last book with Space ship and for me that is an end to series. I haven't read the book after the Weyrs of Pern
Right? I’m not exactly one for the whole “gendered magic system” thing. Even Dune rubbed me the wrong way for the same reasons.
Of course, I’m a proponent for magic being weird and esoteric; more like the magic practiced by real world magicians, medicine men, and witches, as opposed to the flashy, zip zap boing style we get in most fantasy… 🤷♂️
You take a lot of precautions ^^ (Maybe even a little too much...) I read the first two books, and I really don't get it: what is so great about Wheel of Time? It's a very basic, uninteresting fantasy, heavily based on Middle Earth (I completely agree with you on that point), and you can't expect a reader to go through 14 books to appreciate what you write! Anyway, thank you for the video, it was a nice video and I felt less alone^^ (and please excuse my crappy English O.O)
Yeah, when I’m stream-of-consciousness rambling, I tend to take a lot of steps to cover my ass! 😂 But I’m glad you agree with me! There are literally dozens of us!
Bored as hell, I endure until the third because everybody was telling me how good it was. But later I understood that, they will tryin to make me read the mediocre ones to reach a "good final". I don't understand that. You don't hope it will be better, it has to be good from the beginning!!!
Yeah, every once in a while I’ll find a book or show that takes some time to get off the ground (a few chapters or episodes) but multiple books (or seasons) is a little excessive.
Personally I don’t get the hype. When I tried reading this series all it did was put me to sleep. Great for those that like it. But I personally found it boring.
Agreed. Great for those who like it… 🤷♂️
I am at the fourth book right now and I can easily sum up my experience by saying this: I like how it's written, but I loathe what IS written. I have to admit to that Jordon has a way with prose. His writing is smooth and flowing, impactful where it needs to be. But if i take away the most technical part of prose, the story in itself is insufferable. If you couldn't connect Rand and the others in the first book, don't even get me started on what all the characters become in the fourth. Every one is a stereotype. Jordon can not write women, he can not write men. And he sure as hell can not write women and men in love. I read a scene that was literally a sexual assault but played out as "romantic". It can even be pedophile (iykwim). Everything just feels like a weird version of Lord of Rings. Rand, Perrin and Mat are like the hobbits. Lan is basically Aarogon. Moraine is female version of Gandalf. And the dark one is Sauron. I also DO NOT appreciate the cultural appropriation. Jordan says he was inspired by arab/islamic mythology and then he goes ahead and mentions everything that is stereotypical and also just outrageous. For example, Ishameal being the betrayer, the whole emphasis on the Aiel and how they are so primitive and so in shock of seeing water anywhere (like come on!). Also the name Shaytan 😭 good lord, do you know how many times my family uses that word in normal conversation (no we don't practice witchcraft or something. Just any urdu/arabic speaking person is verh normalised to that word because that's what Satan is called in Urdu/arabic). It's even like an insult sometimes. Everytime that word gets mentioned its so anticlimatic. I even laughed once. If he had done his research properly, he would have known a more impactful name would have been "Iblis" 🤷🏻♀️ but well 🤷🏻♀️ He isnt even good at plot. The ending of book 2 and 3 are basically the same. The magic system is mediocre at best. At first i thought he was leading us to greater magic systems and rules but if I am at the fourth book and all i can get is the most generic description of magic (repeatedly) then maybe the guy didnt actually know what he was doing. So basically, i like his style and i would like my writing to be as smooth so I want to read it to learn but I HATE what I am reading.
Yeah, being a fan of world mythologies myself, I found his take on things to be very “meh”.
My typical rule for fantasy is to take a culture or mythology and change a few key aspects (if the Vikings were monotheists, for instance). I just don’t think he was very creative (or at all creative) in that regard. A shame, because I thought some of the characters had promise.
By the way, Iblis is a much better name. I don’t know why, but it always had an appeal to me as something frightful and dangerous. A good name for a villain (see: Count Iblis from the original Battlestar Galactica)
I agree.
I got about a third of the way through the first book and decided I'd endured enough.
The worst part is that fans of the book can't seem to conceive of someone not loving their favourite series, and assume you're just trying to be contrary.
I think we must have bailed around the same time… About the point *spoiler*
Thom Merrilin disappears. He had the only REALLY neat character concept, and I have a soft spot for bards…oh well. Thankfully most people have been understanding of my critique so far.
I muscled thru to 9. I agree with a lot of what other commenters are saying and u totally. All type braid tugging and dressing smoothing becomes tiresome so fast with every scene with the women he writes sigh. I’ll finish it. Eventually
I have been struggling for the better part of a year to finish The Shadow Rising and have now lost all desire to read any more of the series. Every one-off character has to have a name, why? Why do most of the characters fail to grow or mature? No matter how many times Moraine saves their asses, they refuse to develop any trust in her. At all. The pace is glacial most of the time until, with no warning, it ramps to warp speed. The switch is jarring and often seemed to only serve as a poor disguise for some ex machina plot device. And, oh god, the repetition! Entire sentences were repeated, verbatim, in The Dragon Returns, while the Dragon, Rand, appears more as an afterthought in the book.
Yeah, I can understand your frustration. But I’m still glad the series is enjoyed by so many people out there (even if I’m not one of them), and I hope it inspires more interesting reimaginings of Jordan’s ideas in the future.
I agree with some of what you say, I have at least finished the whole series. Having done some reading he was limited in the beginning in order to get published and so that seams to be a large part of why it seams so Lord of the Rings. It is understandable that publisher would push for that. Its not until after book 3 that it starts to really shine on its own and the threads he lays out in the beginning that are unique become more of the identity of the series. I agree that it it somehow filler as well in some of the mid books. Not a lot plot wise actually seams to happen yet somehow its several books. The characters do shine and i think its a product of its and his time in its representation and character portrayal despite the attempts to make female leads shine along with the male counterparts. Don't get me started on the strange spanking thing that pops up way to much lol. I found several characters to regress at times in the series but in many ways that very human and people do that in the real world. Overall I did end up enjoying it. I know its controversial of me to say but I think Brandon Sanderson finished the series with his writing better than what Robert Jordan did. I was unfamiliar with Brandon's work until after I read this series.
I very much respect your opinion. In fact, I think you’ve made some fine points, though I’m not sure I’m going to give the series another shot anytime soon. Maybe in a year or two. Thank you for sharing!
the first 4 books are ok, 5-10 are kinda crappy IMO, the last 11-14 were pretty good imo
That’s an interesting take (and one I don’t hear often). I respect your opinion, though I’m not sure I’ll be giving the series another shot anytime soon. I think I need a Wheel of Time break…
@ConnorLandonFreeman I just finished listening to the audio books, but they are pretty hard to get through. I do understand that the first book is really hard to get through. I mean, Thom and Moraine are the only good characters in the book. The books do get better, though, but I do hate how anticlimactic most of Robert Jordan's books are
Man I lived book 5-10. They were better that 1-4. 😢
@MysicValley I felt like Nothing ever happened is those books until the end of the book. Normally something pretty cool, but it would be resolved in like 2 pages, when it had a huge build up. Really anticlimactic imo
@@danielhenry6777 not disagreeing. But I love the character moments and world building we got. I've read through the series(book and audiobook) a dozen times give it have. Maybe I'm a bit excessive?
Same here. I was greatly interested in the WoT books as world seemed very interesting also it was recommended to me by my friend.. I've got the first book, began reading in the best possible environment and... It was sooo boring and slow.. For all my fascination I never finished yhe first tome. So i totally understand
So..., who cares, right? It doesn't really matter why you don't like something, you just don't like it. Doesn't resonate with you. I never liked the Dragonriders of Pern, or the Twilight novels. And yet I love both the DUNE series (the ones by Frank Herbert) and used to read The Lord of the Rings every winter for years.
Yeah, I agree. I think as long as you’re respectful, it’s perfectly fine not to like something (and it shouldn’t automatically make you some sort of horrible person, but that’s a topic for another day).
Oh buddy, book five is rough. A big Chongus of the middle section is just some of the most mind numbing plot I’ve read. RJ is not…. Exceptional when it comes to writing his women characters and my word. It went from epic fantasy to sex in the city and just stayed in the catty / bickering place for so many chapters 😅
Yeah…unfortunately that seems to be most people’s consensus. Maybe I backed out at the right time? 😅
Wheel of Time is legitimately terrible! Rand al’Thor sucks and the world and ideas are all shameless stolen from other better works without much to make them interesting, unique, or anything that justifies ripping them off.
If you're going to enjoy it you just have to immerse yourself in it and accept it for what it is. Yeah I suppose Jordan doesn't write women well. But maybe Rand Al Thor just knows a lot of bossy, bitchy women. The Aes Sedai act overly superior and controlling because they ARE superior. It's a major plot point. That explains in part why a lot of the communities are matriarchal without spoiling too much. The fantasy world just is as it is. Sure he borrows from Tolkein. EVERYONE does. If you write fantasy, you owe JRR Tolkein. It's that simple. And Tolkein borrowed from other sources, included the bible of all things. Robert Jordan isn't perfect.. he drones endlessly on about detail, which is both good and bad. He's hit or miss writing characters, especially women. The middle third of the series is an absolute slog no doubt. But what I found worked best was just to pace myself with the story and go on this adventure with these characters as they try to survive, gain power, defeat the bad guys, etc. Anything I found missing with the characters or story I just "filled in the blanks" mentally and it was fine. Course nobody HAS to like it. Or any book. But I think there's a lot of good stuff to be mined from the series content-wise and it'd be a shame if you missed out on it because the packaging of it all just doesn't work for you.
You make a good point. As I said in the video, I just don’t think I was in the right place to immerse myself in that world.
Obviously all fantasy takes inspiration from LotR, so I’ll admit that comment was a bit shortsighted of me. Nevertheless, I am glad I read what I did. The series, from what I can gather, isn’t exactly my cup of tea aesthetically or thematically, but I can see why it means so much to so many people.
Thank you for sharing your opinion, and for watching the video.
A Bearded Lady!